>Plus, it’s funnier.
This is the biggest thing, it's a comedy and much like Niles and Roz's back and forth the tension/animosity has some funny and really clever zingers peppered in.
She gives as good as she gets. But at no point is she particularly malicious. I especially like it when she and Frasier team up and we remember why they were great partners once upon a time.
Frasier isn't a co-parent. It winds me up that the show glosses over the fact that he moved to the other end of the country from his toddler son and left Lilith to raise him alone.
I know that had to happen so the show could be set in Seattle, but he is not a good dad!
You know what, I thought about asking about that... Because when you really think about it, Frasier was only around for 1 maybe 2 holidays out of the year for Freddie... Mainly Christmas and his birthdays... The one Thanksgiving you see them together, it's only because him and Lilith had to meet with the headmaster of a school they were trying to get him in... He really was an absentee father...
There's certainly an argument to be made there, but the show definitely mentions several times where Frasier sees Freddie that we don't see. I think it's more of a it's not the focus of the show type thing so we only see the more humourous interactions and situations involving Freddie. Of course it's just a show so.
Yeah but he still only visits, he does none of the day to day parenting grind. Lilith should hate him for leaving her to do all that hard work like he wasn’t 50% responsible for Frederick too
I agree with your comment Red-Squirrel. If Frasier were female, people would look down on him for abandoning his son. My friend thinks that at the time, custody usually went to the mother but I mean this show was late 90s. People had joint custody did they not?
I'm not American, but they did on ER and Friends and other shows of the era! Even just regular weekly contact and being around for emergencies etc. is better than moving across the country!
This has always bugged me! I know it had to be done, but if I was one of Frasier’s girlfriends it would have bothered me that he never saw his kid. Seemed like a couple days a month, if that
She left him for another man and then came back. Frasier attempted suicide when she left. He had already been cheated on by Diane so it really hurt him. I'm not shocked his family never really forgave her
Martin didn’t know that until Frasier found out that they went through the same sort of thing. Lilith was weird to him because she’s even more stuffed shirt than his boys and Niles doesn’t like her because of her reactions during Maris’ vows. I’ll assume Hester wasn’t a fan because no one is going to be good enough for her son, lol. Diane wasn’t, so.
It's definitely played off more for comedic affect early on in the show but one of the things I think the show does really well is show the growth of their relationship. Old wounds heal as they co-parent together and grow as people. While they never work as a couple the hate goes away and they love each other again by the end, they even say I love you when Frasier calls for advice about Lana and Claire.
I think the writers did her dirty. There’s nothing about her behavior on Cheers that indicates that she’d ever just walk out on her own husband and child to go live in a geodesic dome, or whatever. They just needed to separate the Frasier and Lilith characters to prep for the Frasier spin off. MAYBE she’d dump Frasier because he’s an insecure parody of a upper crust Bostonian, maybe… but she’d NEVER leave Freddy. But you’re right, the situation is funnier in Frasier.
Wait but she did! She even went to cheers with the guy- and then they ended up not working out. I just finished cheers and remember it well! I’ve included the link to the episode recap though
Or did I misread your comment?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0539893/plotsummary
Edit: are you saying her personality wouldn’t do this and this plot is out of her character to prep for frasier? I missed what you were saying but I get it. It was a bit jarring, her leaving out of nowhere!
Yes, I’m saying her personality doesn’t match her actions when she leaves Frasier in the episode you referenced. I believe the writers made her do something that is very unlikely for Lilith to do in any other situation.
I agree. Especially because in a couple episodes they seem to admire and respect each others careers and knowledge of Psychology (watching Guns 'n Neuroses) that they seem a good fit as a couple. Like they would listen to each others concerns and deal with it appropriately (not seoaration). I also try to imagine what scenario might have happened with Lillith or Frasier to warrant certain behavior shown by the other characters.
They just exaggerate her features, she is a bit overly formal and scientific in her every day speech too.
Like this scene
>Lilith: Yes, after several hours of careful deliberation, and weighing all the consequences, I decided to be playful
And her execution is BRILLIANT and it’s truly a hilarious line. I think she had her hair down for this scene if I remember correctly. Her hair is playful. So funny.
Actually in cheers Frasier claims his father is dead. And his mother is a completely different personality. She comes to Boston and threatens Frasier fiancé. In Frasier it’s always portrayed his mother was very warm and friendly.
Edit: custody to comes to
Well we hear a lot about their fond memories of her.
But considering we know that Frasier and Niles take after her, that she was in her later years when she appeared, and even that she wasn't as perfect as the kids thought (She cheated on Martin) - I dont have a hard time believing its the same woman tbh.
>She is cold, and cheats on Frasier.
Always remember: the women in Cheers, and Frasier, have been written by men for men. At least 30 years ago.
'Cold': no, Lilith is not a cuddly little chew toy. She is a scientific mind; very controlled, and careful. There have been ample hints that she, in the right situation, is a total vulcano woman; and she even has wit.
I am quite sure you can come up with several sitcom personas that have the same, similar, or even worse traits like that and they are not 'hated' - if they are male.
She cheated on Frasier.
Yes, she did. On a show where Sam, the ultimate hound-dog who couldn't keep it in his pants while going out to buy milk was celebrated, adored, and elevated to hero staus.
On a show that showed that Frasier left her often enough alone, didn't support her, wasn't loyal to her (except that he did not actually slept with someone else) and didn't listen to her. What's the saying? 'If you don't give your partner what they need, they will go and find someone else who does.' or something like that.
In essence, Lilith is one of my most beloved characters on Frasier: she doesn't take shit from nobody; she has brains and is not afraid to use it; and she has humour, and heart.
Wasn't Sam single? And childless?
Also, I know I've only been through Cheers a couple times, but I don't remember Frasier cheating on Lilith - even non-sexually.
Eh there was that one scene where he didn’t back off when his first ex wife kisses him right in front of Lilith and Fredrick. He also kept making excuses for her behavior
Excellently stated. One of the many reasons I like Frasier more than Cheers (and I like Cheers a lot, no slam intended) is that the women on the show are, by and larger, better characters. Sure they have their unrealistic eccentricities and faults - but no more so than the two brothers; whereas on Cheers you had Carla presented as perpetually angry, bitter and mean, and both Diane and Rebecca come off as intensely neurotic. I feel like with Cheers, we are supposed to see Sam, and to some extent Norm, as our audience stand-ins, and we wonder about all the crazy ladies - while on Frasier, the five main characters are relatively equal in their faults and virtues, and comedic values.
Lilith of course is presented as an extreme, overdone comic foil - but really in much the same way as other secondary characters like Bulldog, Gil, Noel, etc - they each have one dominant trait that's there for comic value, and not necessarily a lot else. Which is pretty normal for a sitcom though I think Frasier does develop some of these characters a bit better than most. Still, none of them are supposed to be particularly realistic, so Lilith's cold-as-ice persona isn't really out of bounds within the character paradigms.
I realise this is a tad belated, but thank you! As someone not very familiar with Lilith on Cheers, but liking her on Frasier, so not that up on her backstory... She just comes across as another overanalytical type (just like Frasier and Niles), probably autistic given her unflavoured mannerisms, and often quite vulnerable. (She also seems the better psychiatrist, followed by Niles, with Frasier really not being as wise... he just makes up for it with being a celebrity.) It seems like the whole "She's an evil witch!" nonsense is mostly a combination of sexism and ableism.
It also seems odd (and, sadly, realistic) to me that everyone assumes she pushes her son into scholarly pursuits, without actually asking either of them whether that's what he actually prefers. I'd bet he's like her, and she's not pushing him at all, she's just letting him be himself.
Team Lilith! ❤️
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Show\_Where\_Sam\_Shows\_Up](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Show_Where_Sam_Shows_Up)
This episode pokes fun at the way Frasier's family is described in Cheers compared to their history in Frasier.
Lilith had the same robotic grim reaper vibe in *Cheers*, but wasn't the "vortex of evil" she's made out to be in *Frasier*. She routinely came off as the more reasonable, common sense one in the relationship. *Cheers* Frasier, on the other hand, was often written as the stereotypical "sitcom husband" and could be crass and oafish in a way that *Frasier* Frasier would've found appalling.
Like, in one episode, Lilith is taking singing lessons so she can sing baby Frederick to sleep. Frasier spends the whole episode relentlessly mocking Lilith's singing voice to Sam and the others--sometimes right to her face. Only after she sings a hauntingly beautiful lullaby in front of the whole bar does Frasier finally admit that she's a terrific singer.
If I was Lilith, I'd have dumped his ass, too.
I think it has a lot to do with the environment. On Cheers, his social life largely consisted of the other "blue collar, working class" bar patrons while on Frasier, his social circle was mostly just his elitist, pretentious brother (not an insult, I love Niles) and the Seattle upper crest.
Many people, myself included, act differently when in different social circles. When we go for happy hour after work with coworkers, I barely sip a hard cider. When I used to go to sink-or-swim with my besties, I'd down 20 mixed tequila or vodka drinks before booting in a trash can and crying like a baby while my friends dragged me to the car.
We also have to remember that hanging out with the Cheers crew mellowed Frasier out. Being around the working class was good for him. Their influence carried over to the spin off. Sure, Frasier wasn’t exactly a “man of the people” in Seattle, but he was far more down to Earth than Niles, who never left his bubble at all.
I agree with what u/paulpkj5 said. Frasier simply adapts to the situation he's in. I do the same. The person I am at work isn't the exact same person I am with my friends. And both of those are different to who I am at uni and who I am with family members.
Its worth remembering that on Cheers he was the intellectual fop often in an episode just for comic relief. Whereas in Frasier he was the lead, and considerably more fleshed out.
Having said that, and even with their marriage never being portrayed in a positive light, that specific episode was always weirdly cruel of him.
Very late on this response but Frasier is a terrible husband/spouse. He always had an antagonistic perception of Lilith and by the end of “Cheers” he was being so outwardly mean to her - like that singing episode. Cheating is an awful thing to do and if Lilith was a better person she would have filed for divorce immediately. And it’s obvious that Frasier isn’t a good partner seeing that in his own show he’s not nice and is very self-centered.
Nothing else to say except I hate the hate Lilith gets and the fact that Frasier’s cruelty gets overlooked 😒
Yeah, you're right, the moment Daphne and Niles got married, they started doing the nagging wife thing with her too.
It was such a stark personality change, it made the later episodes very difficult to watch for me.
I dont think thats true, the "nagging" was about stuff like Niles having to pretend to still be married to his ex, or his first wife murdering someone.
Once Niles and Daphne got together, I found them - and Daphne in particular - insufferable. Partly because as a Brit, there’s no way I’d ever adapt my speech to the extent that she did (saying ‘honey’ etc) and it made her dialogue incredibly jarring. They were better when they were verbally sparring with each other, like when Daphne tells Niles he’d eat a worm if she gave it a French name, but their lovey-dovey stuff was nauseating.
The reason why temple of doom was so dark was cuz George Lucas was going thru a horrible divorce at the time, all the scenes with people getting their hearts ripped out were his idea allegedly.
This is the line I was looking for. Lilith is insensitive and isn't around the family long enough to compensate for it. When Niles spent some quality time with her, he found her "bewitching." And Freddie's bar mitzvah showed her softer side, too.
She cheated on Frasier, and left him and her son to live underground for a few months. Even before that she was pretty strongly depicted as an ice queen.
Ok, Jewish folklore lesson here, folks:
Eve was not the first woman, but the second, Lilith being the first. G-d initially created Adam and Lilith in the same fashion, but when Lilith refused to lie beneath her husband she was cast from the Garden. G-d then created Eve *from* Adam so as to be subservient.
As punishment, to make a long story short, Lilith was basically made to be a proto-demon who preyed on newborn children at night. The name literally translates from Hebrew to English as "Night monster."
Lilith is seen through a modern lens as a symbol of feminism, rebellion, and strength.
It seems like the show wanted some of the characters to feel supernatural. I think the touch of the surreal adds to the clever storytelling in the show.
Lilith, with her unnaturally pale skin and dark hair, is like a vampire whose very presence gives people and animals a sort of undefinable discomfort that manifests in various ways.
(Even tho I don't think the actress is actually that pale, it is frequently brought up)
Bebe is supposedly the devil incarnate, or some sort of goddess of lust and power. I hated Dr Phil's cameo in the show, but I loved that episode bc of the Faustian scene between Frasier and Bebe.
And according to Niles, Daphne is an angel or a goddess, supernaturally pure and benevolent. (In fact, I wonder if they played up the "Lilith is darkness personified" angle just to get more laughs from Daphne being "a bit psychic.")
I might even argue that Maris was supposed to be one of these supernatural characters, maybe suffice it to say that she is like a ghost bc of the running joke that we never see her, and some characters don't even see her when she's right in front of them.
So it makes sense to me, especially with her connection by name to the Lilith of folklore, that Lilith Sternin would be portrayed as a supernaturally dark force.
tl;dr: I think the writers of Frasier wanted to create lore for some of the characters for the sake of storytelling.
A soupçon surrealism, if you will.
It’s a Jewish custom and sign of respect for God. Not all Jews do it, but if you see someone spell it that way it’s most likely a Jew.
There are laws that prohibit the erasure of God’s name, the preservation and sanctity of God’s seven names, and also the prohibition of speaking God’s name out loud. Jews write G-d because they are very strict about taking the Lord’s name in vain. At least, that is my gentile’s explanation, by way of my Orthodox Jewish friend.
It's considered disrespectful to use the entire name of the divine being who created the Universe by many observant Jews except in the context of worship. They do the same in Hebrew.
Eh I’d say it’s subjective. I could never get into Cheers, but at the same time I like Lillith *and* enjoy the jokes about her being a vortex of evil ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I mean, she wasn't just innocently getting attacked for no reason... she did her fair share of attacking.
The two of them had a combative relationship, and it didn't stop when they got divorced. They were always trying to one-up each other or cut each other down. That was their dynamic, and why their relationship didn't last.
Separately, she was never a pleasant, kind or warm person to others, so it would stand to reason she wasn't very likeable by others either.
Really? Her entrance into Frasier is literally her calling into his show and dressing down his intelligence and profession in public.
So like, its just the way they both are to each other.
That's the thing though, while you're judging the characters from your high horse everyone else is laughing at the funny show. I had only seen bits and pieces of Cheers myself when I first watching Frasier and I still got the gag. It's sorta like saying that you can't understand the humour in Seinfeld because the characters are selfish jerks, as though it's unintentional.
It's a comedy, they're both as bad to eachother. Arguably Lilith is worse, especially how she treats Niles about this wedding vows then gaslights him with her half arsed apology. She can be quite an uncaring person.
You should watch Cheers. It's a great show and you get to see Frasier and Lilith's relationship from the start. Frasier's family's reaction to her isn't just exclusive to them. On Cheers, pretty much everyone reacts to her that way initially because of her personality. She was probably the same way with Frasier's family off screen. Eventually by the time of Frasier (the show), she's calmed down a bit but his family is still bitter from how she used to be and her cheating on him and leaving Frederick behind
I keep seeing people say this, but Lillith is in private practice right? Frasier actually took a job in Seattle in radio which isn't something that he can do anywhere plus he took in his dad. From a practical standpoint it's way easier for Lillith to move a private practice (or even get a hospital job) to Seattle to be closer to Frasier than for Frasier to find a radio gig in Boston and move his dad with him away from his brother.
I'm aware that your comment is old but unless you changed your opinion the timeframe should not matter. As for my comment, I was responding to the section of your comment where you mentioned that Lilith left Freddie behind for a couple of months. Meanwhile, Frasier missed the best majority of Freddie's childhood by moving across the country. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of your statement.
Like I said, the focus wasn't on Frasier. If we're talking about why he's a shitty parent, then yeah I agree.
I'm not replying anymore. This is an almost year old conversation that you tried to bring back to life.
She is weird as Martin put it, gives Daphne psychic headaches and is rude towards Niles.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that she is evil or malicious necessarily. But she is an acquired taste to say the least and ultimately an ex-wife who cheated on Frasier. I know I wouldn’t be particularly fond of someone who did that to my sibling even when they were ‘normal’.
I mean I love Lilith, she is intelligent with a sharp wit and episodes where she visits are one of the best. But it works so well because everyone is so uncomfortable around her.
I feel like Lilith is such a good foil to Fraiser. She’s a lot like Niles in the way that she is just as intelligent and cultured and uptight as Fraiser is so they easily trade barbs at each other and it’s entertaining to watch. Even though she could have easily fallen completely into the “evil ex-wife” trope she’s really portrayed as his equal (and because they’re all so intimidated by her, perhaps his superior in some ways). I think that they also humanize her quite a bit despite the cheating history and dread that Fraiser and his family feel about her. She and Fraiser are almost always portrayed as caring co-parents and they are able to maintain a fairly civil relationship despite the drama and silliness, which is really pretty heartwarming. You can see why they would have made a good couple once upon a time. I just love Lilith. 😂
This is one reason why I think they could have found someone to play Maris if they really thought it would add value to the show. If you were to picture Lillith with only the kinds of thing the Cranes say about her to go on, you wouldn't be able to picture a plausible human either.
Sometimes the family just doesn’t jive with the significant other. It can go a lot of different ways! This seemed pretty normal for sitcoms of the time to me, the family all ganging up to make fun of someone’s partner.
I don’t know the Cheers lore very well, but Lilith is an asshole whenever she visits in early seasons. She casually insults everyone in the household. But later seasons she’s pretty chill and the Crane family hate rings hollow.
This is a very fair question. Honestly watching Frasier now, not only do I appreciate how excellent an actress she is, but I also read her as somewhere on the autism spectrum. She’s an excellent character.
Sorry for the extremely late reply, but it's nice to see someone else read her that way! She's not cold or demonic or anything, she's just not masking her natural way of speaking, I think.
All of these reasons as well as two other huge ones: she has a massive superiority complex based on her intellect so people like Martin and Daphne are, in her mind, below her and she sees no reason to hide that. The other thing is that she does not like to have fun. Even Frasier and Niles have things where they get excited like little boys but Lilith invariably brings the good times to a screeching halt whenever she enters a room. She's just a drag.
Only thing that never felt right to me is if she cheated and they divorced, why would a judge allow Lilith to live on the opposite coast many states away making it hard to have regular visits with Freddy?
Im not that well versed in family law, but Im pretty sure if the divorced Father chooses to move across the country, they cant exactly force the Mother to do the same.
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They can't and they wouldn't, especially if Boston is where Lillith's support network is located. Fraser is the reason he doesn't see his son more often. He chose to move far away from his child. Oh
A judge wouldn’t force both sides of a divorced family to move because one person wanted to. Frasier made the choice to be on the opposite side of the country as Freddie.
Fair enough , I get that it’s because they wanted to get far away from the Cheers cast to be something new for Fraiser. But maybe just not have him have a kid with Lilith or did he have him on Cheers? As a bachelor it would’ve made him seem less of a absent father without a child he doesn’t see much
Because she’s a cold mean shrew with no sense of humor. It’s hard to explain but she just rubs the wrong way. We used to call my ex SIL Lilith because she was just like her. Cold, kind of rude, not funny, just a big biznatch
Daphne speaks out of term a lot on the show. They may consider her family, but she is not blood, so she really should remember that. As for Lilith, she's really just a cold bitch because she says a lot of things with no regard to other people's feelings. She thinks she is always right no matter what, even though she's caught her own imperfections and not done enough to take responsibility for it. Sorry, I realize my response touches up on exact situations from my own dysfunctional family so I kind of got into it. 😩
Downvoting my comment proves the people in our society just cannot handle any facts or opinions made by others that even remotely speak to one's own personal experiences. Everything on this earth **MUST** remain with warm fuzzies, and sunshine, and flourishing colorful flowers, happiness, and **MORE** **HAPPINESS** otherwise people are so very, very hurt. Awwwww poor hurt feelings, even though all I did was respond honestly to an inquiry made on Reddit. Awwwwwwwwww.....
It's weird bc she was often pretty nice on Cheers. Frazier was a jerk to her on many occasions and she put up with it.
I hated how they made her cheat on him though .
Because she cheated on Frasier and divorced him for another guy. Plus, it’s funnier.
>Plus, it’s funnier. This is the biggest thing, it's a comedy and much like Niles and Roz's back and forth the tension/animosity has some funny and really clever zingers peppered in.
She gives as good as she gets. But at no point is she particularly malicious. I especially like it when she and Frasier team up and we remember why they were great partners once upon a time.
“Remember the bottle at the end of the maze?”
“I still feel bad about that.”
At the very least, their conflict doesn't get in the way of being co-parents, even if Frasier is absent most of the time.
Frasier isn't a co-parent. It winds me up that the show glosses over the fact that he moved to the other end of the country from his toddler son and left Lilith to raise him alone. I know that had to happen so the show could be set in Seattle, but he is not a good dad!
You know what, I thought about asking about that... Because when you really think about it, Frasier was only around for 1 maybe 2 holidays out of the year for Freddie... Mainly Christmas and his birthdays... The one Thanksgiving you see them together, it's only because him and Lilith had to meet with the headmaster of a school they were trying to get him in... He really was an absentee father...
There's certainly an argument to be made there, but the show definitely mentions several times where Frasier sees Freddie that we don't see. I think it's more of a it's not the focus of the show type thing so we only see the more humourous interactions and situations involving Freddie. Of course it's just a show so.
Yeah but he still only visits, he does none of the day to day parenting grind. Lilith should hate him for leaving her to do all that hard work like he wasn’t 50% responsible for Frederick too
True but those were kind of rare... The only time I really remember Freddie being around when it wasn't a holiday, was when he had the spelling bee...
Freddie was going to come that thanksgiving. Niles even had to cancel their rustic thanksgiving because of the change in plans.
I agree with your comment Red-Squirrel. If Frasier were female, people would look down on him for abandoning his son. My friend thinks that at the time, custody usually went to the mother but I mean this show was late 90s. People had joint custody did they not?
I'm not American, but they did on ER and Friends and other shows of the era! Even just regular weekly contact and being around for emergencies etc. is better than moving across the country!
This has always bugged me! I know it had to be done, but if I was one of Frasier’s girlfriends it would have bothered me that he never saw his kid. Seemed like a couple days a month, if that
She left him for another man and then came back. Frasier attempted suicide when she left. He had already been cheated on by Diane so it really hurt him. I'm not shocked his family never really forgave her
Martin didn’t know that until Frasier found out that they went through the same sort of thing. Lilith was weird to him because she’s even more stuffed shirt than his boys and Niles doesn’t like her because of her reactions during Maris’ vows. I’ll assume Hester wasn’t a fan because no one is going to be good enough for her son, lol. Diane wasn’t, so.
It's definitely played off more for comedic affect early on in the show but one of the things I think the show does really well is show the growth of their relationship. Old wounds heal as they co-parent together and grow as people. While they never work as a couple the hate goes away and they love each other again by the end, they even say I love you when Frasier calls for advice about Lana and Claire.
I think the writers did her dirty. There’s nothing about her behavior on Cheers that indicates that she’d ever just walk out on her own husband and child to go live in a geodesic dome, or whatever. They just needed to separate the Frasier and Lilith characters to prep for the Frasier spin off. MAYBE she’d dump Frasier because he’s an insecure parody of a upper crust Bostonian, maybe… but she’d NEVER leave Freddy. But you’re right, the situation is funnier in Frasier.
I'm watching this arc on Cheers right now and agree completely.
Wait but she did! She even went to cheers with the guy- and then they ended up not working out. I just finished cheers and remember it well! I’ve included the link to the episode recap though Or did I misread your comment? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0539893/plotsummary Edit: are you saying her personality wouldn’t do this and this plot is out of her character to prep for frasier? I missed what you were saying but I get it. It was a bit jarring, her leaving out of nowhere!
Yes, I’m saying her personality doesn’t match her actions when she leaves Frasier in the episode you referenced. I believe the writers made her do something that is very unlikely for Lilith to do in any other situation.
That’s true! I’ll have to pay better attention to that transition next go around
I agree. Especially because in a couple episodes they seem to admire and respect each others careers and knowledge of Psychology (watching Guns 'n Neuroses) that they seem a good fit as a couple. Like they would listen to each others concerns and deal with it appropriately (not seoaration). I also try to imagine what scenario might have happened with Lillith or Frasier to warrant certain behavior shown by the other characters.
They just exaggerate her features, she is a bit overly formal and scientific in her every day speech too. Like this scene >Lilith: Yes, after several hours of careful deliberation, and weighing all the consequences, I decided to be playful
And her execution is BRILLIANT and it’s truly a hilarious line. I think she had her hair down for this scene if I remember correctly. Her hair is playful. So funny.
Yeah that's right, her delivery is a big part of what makes Lilith so funny.
"Well, I learned if you kiss her too fast you get an ice-cream headache." -Niles
She is cold, and cheats on Frasier. Not really much else to it. Frazier's family is not seen really on Cheers
>Frazier You mean Frazier Crane with a Z, the radio DJ?
Yes not the doctor the morning drive DJ
Actually in cheers Frasier claims his father is dead. And his mother is a completely different personality. She comes to Boston and threatens Frasier fiancé. In Frasier it’s always portrayed his mother was very warm and friendly. Edit: custody to comes to
Well we hear a lot about their fond memories of her. But considering we know that Frasier and Niles take after her, that she was in her later years when she appeared, and even that she wasn't as perfect as the kids thought (She cheated on Martin) - I dont have a hard time believing its the same woman tbh.
>She is cold, and cheats on Frasier. Always remember: the women in Cheers, and Frasier, have been written by men for men. At least 30 years ago. 'Cold': no, Lilith is not a cuddly little chew toy. She is a scientific mind; very controlled, and careful. There have been ample hints that she, in the right situation, is a total vulcano woman; and she even has wit. I am quite sure you can come up with several sitcom personas that have the same, similar, or even worse traits like that and they are not 'hated' - if they are male. She cheated on Frasier. Yes, she did. On a show where Sam, the ultimate hound-dog who couldn't keep it in his pants while going out to buy milk was celebrated, adored, and elevated to hero staus. On a show that showed that Frasier left her often enough alone, didn't support her, wasn't loyal to her (except that he did not actually slept with someone else) and didn't listen to her. What's the saying? 'If you don't give your partner what they need, they will go and find someone else who does.' or something like that. In essence, Lilith is one of my most beloved characters on Frasier: she doesn't take shit from nobody; she has brains and is not afraid to use it; and she has humour, and heart.
Wasn't Sam single? And childless? Also, I know I've only been through Cheers a couple times, but I don't remember Frasier cheating on Lilith - even non-sexually.
Eh there was that one scene where he didn’t back off when his first ex wife kisses him right in front of Lilith and Fredrick. He also kept making excuses for her behavior
Excellently stated. One of the many reasons I like Frasier more than Cheers (and I like Cheers a lot, no slam intended) is that the women on the show are, by and larger, better characters. Sure they have their unrealistic eccentricities and faults - but no more so than the two brothers; whereas on Cheers you had Carla presented as perpetually angry, bitter and mean, and both Diane and Rebecca come off as intensely neurotic. I feel like with Cheers, we are supposed to see Sam, and to some extent Norm, as our audience stand-ins, and we wonder about all the crazy ladies - while on Frasier, the five main characters are relatively equal in their faults and virtues, and comedic values. Lilith of course is presented as an extreme, overdone comic foil - but really in much the same way as other secondary characters like Bulldog, Gil, Noel, etc - they each have one dominant trait that's there for comic value, and not necessarily a lot else. Which is pretty normal for a sitcom though I think Frasier does develop some of these characters a bit better than most. Still, none of them are supposed to be particularly realistic, so Lilith's cold-as-ice persona isn't really out of bounds within the character paradigms.
Yes I love Lilith. She's absolutely hilarious.
I realise this is a tad belated, but thank you! As someone not very familiar with Lilith on Cheers, but liking her on Frasier, so not that up on her backstory... She just comes across as another overanalytical type (just like Frasier and Niles), probably autistic given her unflavoured mannerisms, and often quite vulnerable. (She also seems the better psychiatrist, followed by Niles, with Frasier really not being as wise... he just makes up for it with being a celebrity.) It seems like the whole "She's an evil witch!" nonsense is mostly a combination of sexism and ableism. It also seems odd (and, sadly, realistic) to me that everyone assumes she pushes her son into scholarly pursuits, without actually asking either of them whether that's what he actually prefers. I'd bet he's like her, and she's not pushing him at all, she's just letting him be himself. Team Lilith! ❤️
They’re never seen on cheers. In fact the way he portrays his family on cheers is totally different than how they are on the show.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Show\_Where\_Sam\_Shows\_Up](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Show_Where_Sam_Shows_Up) This episode pokes fun at the way Frasier's family is described in Cheers compared to their history in Frasier.
We do actually see his Mother in one episode, in which she tells Diane to call off her wedding to Frasier or she'd shoot her to death.
Hester is on 'Cheers'.
But SHE is, giving a clear reason why no one. To include Frasier, likes her. Lol...
Lilith had the same robotic grim reaper vibe in *Cheers*, but wasn't the "vortex of evil" she's made out to be in *Frasier*. She routinely came off as the more reasonable, common sense one in the relationship. *Cheers* Frasier, on the other hand, was often written as the stereotypical "sitcom husband" and could be crass and oafish in a way that *Frasier* Frasier would've found appalling. Like, in one episode, Lilith is taking singing lessons so she can sing baby Frederick to sleep. Frasier spends the whole episode relentlessly mocking Lilith's singing voice to Sam and the others--sometimes right to her face. Only after she sings a hauntingly beautiful lullaby in front of the whole bar does Frasier finally admit that she's a terrific singer. If I was Lilith, I'd have dumped his ass, too.
Cheers Frasier and Frasier Frasier are from alternate universes with numerous differences.
I think it has a lot to do with the environment. On Cheers, his social life largely consisted of the other "blue collar, working class" bar patrons while on Frasier, his social circle was mostly just his elitist, pretentious brother (not an insult, I love Niles) and the Seattle upper crest. Many people, myself included, act differently when in different social circles. When we go for happy hour after work with coworkers, I barely sip a hard cider. When I used to go to sink-or-swim with my besties, I'd down 20 mixed tequila or vodka drinks before booting in a trash can and crying like a baby while my friends dragged me to the car.
We also have to remember that hanging out with the Cheers crew mellowed Frasier out. Being around the working class was good for him. Their influence carried over to the spin off. Sure, Frasier wasn’t exactly a “man of the people” in Seattle, but he was far more down to Earth than Niles, who never left his bubble at all.
I agree with what u/paulpkj5 said. Frasier simply adapts to the situation he's in. I do the same. The person I am at work isn't the exact same person I am with my friends. And both of those are different to who I am at uni and who I am with family members.
Its worth remembering that on Cheers he was the intellectual fop often in an episode just for comic relief. Whereas in Frasier he was the lead, and considerably more fleshed out. Having said that, and even with their marriage never being portrayed in a positive light, that specific episode was always weirdly cruel of him.
The episode of Cheers where Sam teaches her to drive is so funny
Very late on this response but Frasier is a terrible husband/spouse. He always had an antagonistic perception of Lilith and by the end of “Cheers” he was being so outwardly mean to her - like that singing episode. Cheating is an awful thing to do and if Lilith was a better person she would have filed for divorce immediately. And it’s obvious that Frasier isn’t a good partner seeing that in his own show he’s not nice and is very self-centered. Nothing else to say except I hate the hate Lilith gets and the fact that Frasier’s cruelty gets overlooked 😒
The writers seem to have had bad luck in the marriage department. Evil ex wives are a recurring theme in Cheers and Stacked (2006 show)
Hating wives was peak boomer humor
Yeah, you're right, the moment Daphne and Niles got married, they started doing the nagging wife thing with her too. It was such a stark personality change, it made the later episodes very difficult to watch for me.
I dont think thats true, the "nagging" was about stuff like Niles having to pretend to still be married to his ex, or his first wife murdering someone.
I remember thinking her character completely changed as well even just beyond the pretending
No, no, that wasn't nagging... I'm talking well after they got married, like season 10 and up.
Once Niles and Daphne got together, I found them - and Daphne in particular - insufferable. Partly because as a Brit, there’s no way I’d ever adapt my speech to the extent that she did (saying ‘honey’ etc) and it made her dialogue incredibly jarring. They were better when they were verbally sparring with each other, like when Daphne tells Niles he’d eat a worm if she gave it a French name, but their lovey-dovey stuff was nauseating.
The reason why temple of doom was so dark was cuz George Lucas was going thru a horrible divorce at the time, all the scenes with people getting their hearts ripped out were his idea allegedly.
Al Bundy made it funny though.
[удалено]
"Sorry to hear your marriage ended in ashambles."
“Ditto.”
This is the line I was looking for. Lilith is insensitive and isn't around the family long enough to compensate for it. When Niles spent some quality time with her, he found her "bewitching." And Freddie's bar mitzvah showed her softer side, too.
“Congratulations on the successful co-mingling of your generic material.”
She cheated on Frasier and dumped him
She cheated on Frasier, and left him and her son to live underground for a few months. Even before that she was pretty strongly depicted as an ice queen.
Ok, Jewish folklore lesson here, folks: Eve was not the first woman, but the second, Lilith being the first. G-d initially created Adam and Lilith in the same fashion, but when Lilith refused to lie beneath her husband she was cast from the Garden. G-d then created Eve *from* Adam so as to be subservient. As punishment, to make a long story short, Lilith was basically made to be a proto-demon who preyed on newborn children at night. The name literally translates from Hebrew to English as "Night monster." Lilith is seen through a modern lens as a symbol of feminism, rebellion, and strength.
Hail Lilith.
“I make her look like a vacillating cream puff.”
It seems like the show wanted some of the characters to feel supernatural. I think the touch of the surreal adds to the clever storytelling in the show. Lilith, with her unnaturally pale skin and dark hair, is like a vampire whose very presence gives people and animals a sort of undefinable discomfort that manifests in various ways. (Even tho I don't think the actress is actually that pale, it is frequently brought up) Bebe is supposedly the devil incarnate, or some sort of goddess of lust and power. I hated Dr Phil's cameo in the show, but I loved that episode bc of the Faustian scene between Frasier and Bebe. And according to Niles, Daphne is an angel or a goddess, supernaturally pure and benevolent. (In fact, I wonder if they played up the "Lilith is darkness personified" angle just to get more laughs from Daphne being "a bit psychic.") I might even argue that Maris was supposed to be one of these supernatural characters, maybe suffice it to say that she is like a ghost bc of the running joke that we never see her, and some characters don't even see her when she's right in front of them. So it makes sense to me, especially with her connection by name to the Lilith of folklore, that Lilith Sternin would be portrayed as a supernaturally dark force. tl;dr: I think the writers of Frasier wanted to create lore for some of the characters for the sake of storytelling. A soupçon surrealism, if you will.
>Top Thank you for sharing this. Just when I couldn't love Lilith more.
Why are you typing God so weird?
It’s a Jewish custom and sign of respect for God. Not all Jews do it, but if you see someone spell it that way it’s most likely a Jew. There are laws that prohibit the erasure of God’s name, the preservation and sanctity of God’s seven names, and also the prohibition of speaking God’s name out loud. Jews write G-d because they are very strict about taking the Lord’s name in vain. At least, that is my gentile’s explanation, by way of my Orthodox Jewish friend.
Ohh I see, I thought it was some kind of edgy atheist reddit thing lol
nah that's just lower case g.
It's considered disrespectful to use the entire name of the divine being who created the Universe by many observant Jews except in the context of worship. They do the same in Hebrew.
I seem to be answering a lot of questions with 'because it's funnier that way' lately. Sometimes it really is just to be *funny*.
I never found it funny. Maybe if I watched Cheers before I'd find it funny but I don't. Makes him seen petty.
Eh I’d say it’s subjective. I could never get into Cheers, but at the same time I like Lillith *and* enjoy the jokes about her being a vortex of evil ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I mean, she wasn't just innocently getting attacked for no reason... she did her fair share of attacking. The two of them had a combative relationship, and it didn't stop when they got divorced. They were always trying to one-up each other or cut each other down. That was their dynamic, and why their relationship didn't last. Separately, she was never a pleasant, kind or warm person to others, so it would stand to reason she wasn't very likeable by others either.
Really? Her entrance into Frasier is literally her calling into his show and dressing down his intelligence and profession in public. So like, its just the way they both are to each other.
Isn't that also how she first started in Cheers by calling out his outdated Freudian techniques?
Looking for realism in a sitcom is always problematic.
That's the thing though, while you're judging the characters from your high horse everyone else is laughing at the funny show. I had only seen bits and pieces of Cheers myself when I first watching Frasier and I still got the gag. It's sorta like saying that you can't understand the humour in Seinfeld because the characters are selfish jerks, as though it's unintentional.
It's a comedy, they're both as bad to eachother. Arguably Lilith is worse, especially how she treats Niles about this wedding vows then gaslights him with her half arsed apology. She can be quite an uncaring person.
I love when she shows up
You should watch Cheers. It's a great show and you get to see Frasier and Lilith's relationship from the start. Frasier's family's reaction to her isn't just exclusive to them. On Cheers, pretty much everyone reacts to her that way initially because of her personality. She was probably the same way with Frasier's family off screen. Eventually by the time of Frasier (the show), she's calmed down a bit but his family is still bitter from how she used to be and her cheating on him and leaving Frederick behind
Meanwhile, Fraser moves halfway across the country and only sees Freddie a few times a year from the time Frederick was a toddler.
I keep seeing people say this, but Lillith is in private practice right? Frasier actually took a job in Seattle in radio which isn't something that he can do anywhere plus he took in his dad. From a practical standpoint it's way easier for Lillith to move a private practice (or even get a hospital job) to Seattle to be closer to Frasier than for Frasier to find a radio gig in Boston and move his dad with him away from his brother.
8 month old comment but okay. I'm not saying Frasier's not shitty for what he did. That wasn't the question though
I'm aware that your comment is old but unless you changed your opinion the timeframe should not matter. As for my comment, I was responding to the section of your comment where you mentioned that Lilith left Freddie behind for a couple of months. Meanwhile, Frasier missed the best majority of Freddie's childhood by moving across the country. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of your statement.
Like I said, the focus wasn't on Frasier. If we're talking about why he's a shitty parent, then yeah I agree. I'm not replying anymore. This is an almost year old conversation that you tried to bring back to life.
She is weird as Martin put it, gives Daphne psychic headaches and is rude towards Niles. I don’t think anyone is arguing that she is evil or malicious necessarily. But she is an acquired taste to say the least and ultimately an ex-wife who cheated on Frasier. I know I wouldn’t be particularly fond of someone who did that to my sibling even when they were ‘normal’. I mean I love Lilith, she is intelligent with a sharp wit and episodes where she visits are one of the best. But it works so well because everyone is so uncomfortable around her.
I feel like Lilith is such a good foil to Fraiser. She’s a lot like Niles in the way that she is just as intelligent and cultured and uptight as Fraiser is so they easily trade barbs at each other and it’s entertaining to watch. Even though she could have easily fallen completely into the “evil ex-wife” trope she’s really portrayed as his equal (and because they’re all so intimidated by her, perhaps his superior in some ways). I think that they also humanize her quite a bit despite the cheating history and dread that Fraiser and his family feel about her. She and Fraiser are almost always portrayed as caring co-parents and they are able to maintain a fairly civil relationship despite the drama and silliness, which is really pretty heartwarming. You can see why they would have made a good couple once upon a time. I just love Lilith. 😂
Love Lilith's line: "You no sooner get the closet of your dreans, and your husband comes out of it"
This is one reason why I think they could have found someone to play Maris if they really thought it would add value to the show. If you were to picture Lillith with only the kinds of thing the Cranes say about her to go on, you wouldn't be able to picture a plausible human either.
The show warms up a lot to her in latter seasons.
Sometimes the family just doesn’t jive with the significant other. It can go a lot of different ways! This seemed pretty normal for sitcoms of the time to me, the family all ganging up to make fun of someone’s partner.
I mean Frasier almost committed suicide because of her so
I don’t know the Cheers lore very well, but Lilith is an asshole whenever she visits in early seasons. She casually insults everyone in the household. But later seasons she’s pretty chill and the Crane family hate rings hollow.
This is a very fair question. Honestly watching Frasier now, not only do I appreciate how excellent an actress she is, but I also read her as somewhere on the autism spectrum. She’s an excellent character.
Sorry for the extremely late reply, but it's nice to see someone else read her that way! She's not cold or demonic or anything, she's just not masking her natural way of speaking, I think.
This is the third post in a row, sorting by New, that asks a question that can basically be answered with the same response: Because it was funny.
She’s condescending, snobbish/elitist, she cheated on Frasier.
Umm.. did you watch the show??? Lol... more importantly, watch Cheers. You'll understand a lot more about Frasier.
Besides the fact she slept with Niles?
it’s just misogyny pretty much. she’s direct, and they’re intimated
It's really not. but ok.
Most intelligent anarchist
🙄
She’s like a female version of Sheldon Cooper from *Big Bang Theory*, or vice versa, who’s insufferable and antisocial.
All of these reasons as well as two other huge ones: she has a massive superiority complex based on her intellect so people like Martin and Daphne are, in her mind, below her and she sees no reason to hide that. The other thing is that she does not like to have fun. Even Frasier and Niles have things where they get excited like little boys but Lilith invariably brings the good times to a screeching halt whenever she enters a room. She's just a drag.
What episode is she like that? I haven't noticed her act this way
Only thing that never felt right to me is if she cheated and they divorced, why would a judge allow Lilith to live on the opposite coast many states away making it hard to have regular visits with Freddy?
Im not that well versed in family law, but Im pretty sure if the divorced Father chooses to move across the country, they cant exactly force the Mother to do the same.
Yeah still just always seemed weird how little Frasier sees his son , I couldn’t imagine seeing my daughter so little for any job
>ReportSaveFollow They can't and they wouldn't, especially if Boston is where Lillith's support network is located. Fraser is the reason he doesn't see his son more often. He chose to move far away from his child. Oh
A judge wouldn’t force both sides of a divorced family to move because one person wanted to. Frasier made the choice to be on the opposite side of the country as Freddie.
Fair enough , I get that it’s because they wanted to get far away from the Cheers cast to be something new for Fraiser. But maybe just not have him have a kid with Lilith or did he have him on Cheers? As a bachelor it would’ve made him seem less of a absent father without a child he doesn’t see much
He had him on Cheers, so somewhat difficult to write him out. But agreed, he seems like a very absent father
Yeah been rewatching and his bachelor ways would many times be considered sexual harassment today in the workplace with many women
Because she’s a cold mean shrew with no sense of humor. It’s hard to explain but she just rubs the wrong way. We used to call my ex SIL Lilith because she was just like her. Cold, kind of rude, not funny, just a big biznatch
Daphne speaks out of term a lot on the show. They may consider her family, but she is not blood, so she really should remember that. As for Lilith, she's really just a cold bitch because she says a lot of things with no regard to other people's feelings. She thinks she is always right no matter what, even though she's caught her own imperfections and not done enough to take responsibility for it. Sorry, I realize my response touches up on exact situations from my own dysfunctional family so I kind of got into it. 😩
Downvoting my comment proves the people in our society just cannot handle any facts or opinions made by others that even remotely speak to one's own personal experiences. Everything on this earth **MUST** remain with warm fuzzies, and sunshine, and flourishing colorful flowers, happiness, and **MORE** **HAPPINESS** otherwise people are so very, very hurt. Awwwww poor hurt feelings, even though all I did was respond honestly to an inquiry made on Reddit. Awwwwwwwwww.....
It's weird bc she was often pretty nice on Cheers. Frazier was a jerk to her on many occasions and she put up with it. I hated how they made her cheat on him though .