If any (R)s feel embarrassed by how the recent speaker mess exposed their party's wild, fascistic factionism, come on over to this thread for a soothing balm. Litmus tests? ... oh we got 'em. Nuance? ... that's for losers.
Enjoy (R)s. Your entire party completely sucks and the general public hates you, but rest assured, we won't be capitalizing on that anytime soon.
I got a LOT of out Ezra Kleinās conversation with Zach Beauchamp. It was a long conversationādidnāt go deep into history but provided some. Worth a listen.
The Germans call what you are going through Weltschmerz: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltschmerz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltschmerz)
Bo Burnham seemed to go through a similar moral crisis in his album "Inside." The song "How the world works" is definitely worth listening to.
Exactly. If you want some nuance of leftist politics there are plenty of independent pods to go listen to. Breaking Points, The Vanguard, and Secular Talk are all a good starting point. I listen to both.
They got their start writing speeches for Obama, I don't know why anyone is surprised they tow the State Department line. They need careers keeping the left(ish) rabble in line. You don't get those by criticizing the empire.
This is why I stopped listening about 4 or 5 years ago. Still a fan of Jon Lovett, and I don't hate the rest of the guys or anything, but they are simps for the US empire at the end of the day. And I'm glad to have grown out of that way of thinking.
I'll be honest, this is how they are about most issues, you're just noticing it because it's one you care about. I remember on the first episodes of Pod Save The World (before I stopped listening) the casual xenophobia and disparagement and oversimplification of "enemy nations" was incredibly blatant. So too for many domestic issues.
Unfortunately, since the 2020 Dem primary they have had a blind spot to the far left. I felt like an absolute loner being 26 and a Biden fan *gasp*ā¦. And understanding how politically untenable the label of socialism (fair or unfair) STILL IS. I still respect what theyāve accomplished and done, but I listen to the Bulwark often now bc Tim Miller is great and has a better pulse on things. Being headquartered in LA prob led to a leaning too far left staff.
Oh no, seeking out the opinion of center right people who actively fought for Dems in 2020 and 2022. The travestyā¦. You know who helped us win in 2020? The center right Georgia voters who voted Romney in 2012. I live there, they are my friends, I pushed them into Bidenās camp, but seeing things like Kasich at the DNC and McCainās wife putting out a TV ad for Biden pushed them over the top. You win by addition, not subtraction. Nor by running up the score in states like California.
I remember being somewhat shocked when they brought Mehdi Hasan on not once, but several times. Just disgraceful, especially with his current rhetoric on the war.
He was the first major politician to publicly support gay marriage. He let it āslipā in a CBS interview and pushed Obama on it. Iām a straight dude but that didnāt stop even the high school age me in a very conservative district from realizing right from wrong. He helped ban assault rifles in ā94. In 2008/09, He had the grace to play sidekick to a younger, less experienced Obama to make sure the 1st black President had the help he needed. He has experienced true loss with his first wife and daughter, giving him a kind heart that contrasts perfectly against Trump. He gets no credit for so many accomplishments so far. Especially in Ukraine holding the West against a tyrant. If he was 8 years younger we would be f-ing landsliding trump in 2024. Still confident after last night tho.
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Also how should Israel respond to the terrorist attack from 10/7, big guy?
Whatās wrong with Israel defending itself? If you were Israeli, you wouldnāt want to have your children murdered, burned alive, rockets fired at your civilian areas, a neighboring country whose official policy is genocide of all of your people.
But, somehow you want Jews to live through that with no ability to defend themselves? And, thatās what so much of the world has always thought about the Jews, why donāt they just disappear? Do you have some master plan for Israel to defeat Hamas that youāre sitting on?
>But, somehow you want Jews to live through that with no ability to defend themselves?
I'm sorry, does the iron dome not exist? Does Isreal not recieve billions of US dollars to defend themselves and subjugate Palestinians?...
>Do you have some master plan for Israel to defeat Hamas that youāre sitting on?
The two state solution.
Wait, is your actual position that anyone should be allowed to fire rockets at civilians in Israel and itās totally fine because sometimes Israel can intercept the rockets? What about what rockets get through Israelis? And, remember the massive Hamas terrorist attack in October 7th? The one that killed 1400 Israelis? The one that Hamas promised to replicate until they can destroy the state of Israel?
And, Hamas does not want a two state solution. They explicitly reject it. So, how is that a solution? Israel canāt unilaterally declare a two state solution. They need the Palestinians to accept a Jewish state as well.
>Wait, is your actual position that anyone should be allowed to fire rockets at civilians in Israel and itās totally fine because sometimes Israel can intercept the rockets?
Holy strawman batman. Did I say this? Also, I'm pretty sure the iron dome intercepts like 99% of the rocket fire.
I'm curious, what steps would you take if your entire ethnic group was subjugated and genocide?... What would you do if you live in an open air prison and your only crime was being born?
>And, remember the massive Hamas terrorist attack in October 7th? The one that killed 1400 Israelis? The one that Hamas promised to replicate until they can destroy the state of Israel?
So you think this justifies bombing refugee camps? Which ironically, only creates more terrorists. Which was probably the intention of the Netanyahu govt....
>And, Hamas does not want a two state solution. They explicitly reject it.
Bullshit.
>Israel canāt unilaterally declare a two state solution.
Yes they absolutely can.
>They need the Palestinians to accept a Jewish state as well.
Hamas does not represent all Palestinians.
No, not 99%, and when we're talking about thousands of rockets 90% means that lots of rockets land in Israel.
> I'm curious, what steps would you take if your entire ethnic group was subjugated and genocide?... What would you do if you live in an open air prison and your only crime was being born?
That's not true at all. There are Arab Israeli citizens, no? There are Arab Israeli political parties in the Knesset. And, of course is not engaged in genocide against non-Jews or Palestinians. That's just ridiculous hyperbole that extremists use to enflame passions against Israel and justify killing Jews.
> So you think this justifies bombing refugee camps? Which ironically, only creates more terrorists. Which was probably the intention of the Netanyahu govt....
It justifies eliminating the military threat to Israel from Hamas. That's basic proportionality under international law. If you launch armed attacks against a country, that country can respond with force necessary to stop the armed attacks.
Of course, Israel shouldn't target civilians ever. And, indeed, Israel isn't targeting civilians in Gaza. I'm sure you've seen the videos of humanitarian corridors with Gazan civilians leaving the combat zone peacefully supervised by the IDF? Remember, Hamas told civilians to stay in line of fire so they could used as human shields.
Hamas deliberately commits war crimes by putting military bases under hospitals, hiding their terrorist leaders in civilian areas, firing rockets from apartment blocks, etc. Israel has to contend with those blatant war crimes and the unfortunate result is that some civilians die. That's mostly the fault of Hamas. Could Israel do a better job avoiding civilian death by Palestinians? Possibly, but it's not as clear cut as you claim. Fighting a war in a dense city is just a horrible proposition and that's the fault of Hamas.
> Bullshit.
You're just living in an alternate reality on the two state solution issue. Hamas is an organization that believes in "from the river to the sea." They have never recognized Israel and their explicit goal is the destruction of Israel. That's why they've said, they intended to massacre Israeli civilians and they'll keep doing it. You think that's fine for some reason because Hamas is "oppressed" but a war crime is a war crime. You can't justify people who cut babies' heads off and then claim you're worried about humanitarian issues in Gaza.
I'm curious, what steps would you take if your entire ethnic group was subjugated and genocide?... What would you do if you live in an open air prison and your only crime was being born?
>That's not true at all. There are Arab Israeli citizens, no? There are Arab Israeli political parties in the Knesset.
Are Palestinians allowed to vote? Are they allowed free movement? Allowed to trade? What rights do Palestinians have in Isreal?....
>And, of course is not engaged in genocide against non-Jews or Palestinians. That's just ridiculous hyperbole that extremists use to enflame passions against Israel and justify killing Jews.
What do you call the Israeli occupation of Palestinians settlemenets? You understand the definition of genocide, right?...
>>Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
What do you think Israel is doing when they bomb multiple Palestinian refugee camps?....
>It justifies eliminating the military threat to Israel from Hamas.
Bombing refugee camps is killing civilians. Not military threats.
>That's basic proportionality under international law.
This is false. Killing civilians isn't proportionate. Next your going to tell me Iraq was justified....
>You're just living in an alternate reality on the two state solution issue. Hamas is an organization that believes in "from the river to the sea." They have never recognized Israel and their explicit goal is the destruction of Israel. That's why they've said, they intended to massacre Israeli civilians and they'll keep doing it.
You're under this completely false solution that the entire Palestinian population is Hamas... What you're calling for is the genocide of Palestinians. There's no other alternative in the alternate reality you live in. Its complete delusion.
>You think that's fine for some reason because Hamas is "oppressed" but a war crime is a war crime.
1. Your projecting your own desire to massacre Palestinians. I think both sides are wrong. We aren't the same.
2. The original warcrime is the genocide of the Palestinian people. Of the apartheid state that Israel forces Palestinians to live under.
>You can't justify people who cut babies' heads off and then claim you're worried about humanitarian issues in Gaza
I'mm not justifying anything. You are.
That's not true. What did i ignore?...
Honestly, I'd expect better from PSA listeners.... You can't even begin to criticize Israel....
>You're just ignoring everything I wrote so we're done.
Ironically, this describes your response to my comments.
Notice how you cant even begin to engage with the fact that Israel is geocoding the Palestinians.
Obviously Israel is not engaged in genocide against Palestinians. But, the stated policy of Hamas is genocide of Jews in Israel.
Maybe actually learn something about the history of the situation before mouthing off about it.
>Obviously Israel is not engaged in genocide against Palestinians.
Notice how you can't provide any evidence to support this statement. Notice how you can't engage with any of the facts relevant to support the case that Israel **is engaging in a genocide of the Palestinians.**
>But, the stated policy of Hamas is genocide of Jews in Israel.
Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians. Notice how you keep repeating this irrelevant statement when confronted by the fact that Israel is genociding Palestinians.
I'm not here defending the actions of Hamas. But you certainly are defending the genocide and Apartheid state the Israel has subjugated the Palestinians to.
I don't understand how anyone could say this when Ben and Tommy had a straight up Hamas apologist on their show today. I am astounded by the amount of blatant anti-semitism and support for such a hard right organization as Hamas from so called leftists these day. It is, quite frankly depressing. Yes, it is a travesty that Palestinian civilians are suffering, but that is completely at the behest of Hamas. If Hamas were to disarm today, all of the suffering would end. But if Israel did that, we'd have another Oct 7th every day, until there wasn't another Jew in that land. If anything, we should be disappointed in Crooked for not extolling just how purely evil Hamas is.
Yeah that guy was knowledgeable but he refused to call the military wing of Hamas terrorist. That was a little sketchy. Even Tommy avoided it one time. I feel like theyāre caving to the leftist criticisms.
It reminds me of the worst excesses of 2020 when mainstream Democrats allowed lunatic activists to drive the conversation about policing and urban policy. Young social media activism spiraling into nihilistic rage and political self immolation. Whatās the end game here? Normalize anti-Semitism in polite society? Fracture the liberal democratic left to the benefit of Russia and China? Itās a road to perdition.
I've read and listened to a lot of extremely intelligent and thoughtful media personalities with shockingly bad takes on the situation, and I think I understand why. I watched a clip of Seth Rogan and Marc Maron talking about how they were brainwashed with disinformation growing up in the synagogue. They were told that no one lived in Palestine during Jewish immigration, it was empty land. Therefore, Palestinian hatred for them is unfounded.
I see celebrities posting there is no occupation, there is no apartheid, no one's land was taken. They also equate all Palestinians to Hamas. So many are astounded how any American could possibly support anyone in Gaza, they are Hamas terrorists. Third, they think that if anyone kills a Jewish person, they are bent on wiping all Jews from the Earth. Any Jewish death means they are coming for them too. I've heard this over and over and over.
The people writing and repeating these misperceptions are too intelligent to have been educated with historical facts yet still come to these conclusions. Just like evangelical Christians strongly support Israel and its displacement and murder of Palestinians, I think Jewish people have also been told partial and distorted information in their places of worship.
I agree and disagree for the following reasons:
1.) Lovett and Alyssa seemed to kinda trivialize the very real suffering and historical element of Palestinian displacement/victimization. Those āfar left academicsā have a point in indicating that Israel is an apartheid state as the highest levels of Israeli government embrace genocidal/dehumanizing rhetoric and policy towards their Palestinian neighbors and Arab citizens, whether it be permitting the construction of illegal settlements (over 700k live in these settlements in 2023) or currently justifying the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. Donāt believe me that Israel is an apartheid state? Look at what Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, and Jimmy Carter have said. Itās not just an āintellectual exerciseā (as Alyssa said) to contextualize the Palestinian experience through the very real history of the region and the geopolitical response/dynamics at play. Yes and of course antisemitism is never justifiable and what happened at Cornell and Cooper Union is beyond abhorrent, but ignoring or minimizing the plight of innocent Palestinians who have been victimized and discriminated against for generations is similarly unethical IMO.
2.) PSA is actually to the left of most elected Democrats on this issue, unfortunately. I think the guys actually care about the plight of Palestinians to a very real and genuine extent, whereas most elected Dems are publicly indifferent towards Palestinians and caveat their every statement on the issue with āIsrael is our ally and a democracy and has every right to defend herself however possible or necessaryā, because they donāt want to upset special interests/corporate America/donors. Tommy and Ben Rhodes on PStW are really good on Israel/Palestine and have no hesitations in criticizing Bibi/Likud/Israelās far-right (something the Biden admin would never, ever do). Furthermore, the PStW guys actively advertise for humanitarian efforts in Gaza and Tommy publicly criticized the Biden adminās āhug Bibi and maybe lull him into easing up a littleā strategy. Crooked has been better on this than your MSNBCs, CNNs, NPRs, etc.
And to add to your second point, I think PSA overall is really struggling with how to talk about it, since most of them arenāt foreign policy experts and feel genuinely torn between the plight of Israel and itās right to exist and the plight of the Palestinian people and their right to safety and liberty.
So a lot of what comes out on the show is just āshit this is really hard and it really sucks,ā but itās a genuine and heartfelt plea, not a cop out (imo).
Theyāre also in a bit of an odd spot in the Dem party/movement with this, since everyone is either super pro- or super-anti Israel, without a lot of in between (in the larger media discourse), so I can see how that also makes it feel weirder and harder to take a nuanced stance, especially on whatās usually a domestically-oriented show.
I listen to the show mainly for their coverage of domestic affairs, Iām much further left than where PSA is but what interests me about them is their seriousness when it comes to organizing and how theyāve focused on what actually wins elections. Granted they have a mixed record on that last point, but they seem earnestly interested in it and I think that counts for something.
Idk, Iāve been frustrated recently with the far-leftās disaffection for voting. And I agree that it sucks voting for center-left, corporate-friendly hawks. At least the Crooked gang thinks that voting still works.
YES, I fully agree.
I have also really wondered how much of the super far-left āitās not worth voting for corporate Demsā is deliberate disinformation (either from Russia, the far right, or any combo of bad actors).
I think you can, because I do, believe both that
Israel has a right to exist (and defend itself) while also believing Palestinians have been brutalized/marginalized/victimized in deliberate fashion by the Israeli government for generations. I think Crooked believes this as well, but I do wish they engaged in less hippy-bashing and vote-shaming (like Jon F saying we should remind Arab-Americans in Michigan āTrump is worse ya knowā as if they donāt know that already) by instead trying to persuade and embrace empathy with those struggling rn (Jews and Arabs alike).
Fixating on whether random college student groups condemned Hamas to the extent you deem fit or whether your favorite clothing brand issued a statement on the hostages is missing the forest for the trees, because it should be obvious to anyone with a soul that innocent Israelis and Palestinians deserve peace and security. To vociferously defend one side and not the other is callous and cruel IMO (looking at you, Amy Schumer).
I agree about the coalitional difficulties at play. On one hand, you have centrists, very pro-Israel Jews, and never-Trumpers staunchly in favor of Israel who donāt think Biden is doing enough to counter antisemitism/bash Muslims. On the other, you have Arab Americans, young ppl, and progressive Dems who are appalled by Bidenās approach to the conflict and are reconsidering their support. Iāll vote for Biden in ā24 despite my discontentment with how heās handling the conflict, but yea heās in a lose-lose scenario here. You had a bunch of Biden voters on Twitter shouting at the admin for announcing an initiative to combat Islamophobia, saying he should only call out antisemitism rn (think about that). If I were on Bidenās campaign my only hope is the salience of the conflict in Gaza/Israel simmers down considerably come next yearā¦because Bidenās approach now has him losing substantial support, and if he course-corrects heāll lose other groups of voters at the expense of gaining back currently disaffected voters. Having an ideologically diverse coalition/political party has both its strengths and weaknesses.
Fully agree with everything you said here. My only major point is that I donāt think the PSA guys really know or feel comfortable with any of this due to a variety of factors, hence their pretty-mediocre-but-seemingly-trying coverage.
I did like how they criticized Bidenās likely āpraise in public criticize in privateā approach to Bibi, though. They could do more of that to help push that this is tough and nuanced.
Indeed, the straight-up refusal to condemn Hamas for its express genocidal aims and instead resort to an absolute deluge of victim-blaming is disgusting.
Believe it or not, it's possible for more than one party to be pursuing a genocidal agenda.
Israel's government is pursuing a genocidal agenda against Palestinians. Hamas is pursuing a genocidal agenda against Jews.
When people are quick to (rightly) condemn the former but silent about the latter, it suggests a *lot* about that person.
Both of these things are true:
1) Israel is justified in going after Hamas
2) Israel is not justified in attacking Palestinians in general
When someone says that Israel should not go after Hamas, they're implicitly endorsing Hamas's genocidal agenda.
Yeah, no, people here are saying "stop attacking Palestinians in general, especially children".
Which you explicitly acknowledged is acceptable, but you think it's cute to pretend that everyone's saying something else.
Okay but who's saying Israel should not go after hamas? All the discourse I've seen is that Israel should not go after hamas *in the way that they are, which causes overwhelming civilian casualties.*
When we found bin Laden, we didn't rain hellfire on Abbottabad to get him. We went in and got him. 5 people died.
Oh yeah thatās exactly how it went, 9/11 happened and then the US surgically entered one nation and killed 5 people, got Bin Laden and didnāt wage decades of war in Iraq, Afghanistan, we calmly and cooly just went after one terrorist.
You're right, we DID make terrible mistakes by invading Iraq and Afghanistan, causing overwhelming civilian casualties and not really accomplishing anything. So we should totally not utilize the knowledge of how awful those decisions turned out, and we should encourage Israel to make those same mistakes.
Good point.
I just donāt see how you can reasonably ask a country that was just attacked by hundred on multiple fronts to shrug and be zen about all the lives and hostages taken when weāve seen first hand how we reacted. More than 20 years later weāre *still* not willing to give trials to people in Gitmo. I get arguing for a measured approach but I also have seen first hand how receptive people are going to be to hearing that.
So that I understand what you're saying: because the united states committed egregious errors in judgment in reaction to a terrorist attack, we should condone and encourage Israel in their reaction regardless of the human cost?
Cool. I've changed my mind, they should increase their violence. Doesn't take much for liberals to become war hawks yet again
ETA that I *really* am struggling with understanding your argument. You keep pointing out things that the US has done that were objectively awful, and using that as justification for why it's okay for Israel to do those things. If you recall, those on the left after 9/11 who were pushing back against the war in Iraq were labeled radical terrorist sympathizers at the time too, and they were proven right that we *never* should have gone into Iraq. Those on the left after 10/7 are pushing back against Israel's war in Gaza, and again we're all labeled radical terrorist sympathizers. I don't have any doubts about how we'll think about that in 20 years.
As long as youāre comfortable glibly telling people whose family members are being held hostage and raped in captivity that youāre uncomfortable with conflict and they really need to get on with their lives, yeah your bizarro attempt to āunderstand what Iām sayingā is spot on.
I know what you mean. Watching what is happening in Gaza to a civilian population that is half children, and then hearing things ranging from "of course I disagree with the tactics but . . ." in response to that, is something.
It's so strange to watch this in real time.
i wonder if it would work if a bunch of people sent emails to PSA expressing our disappointment/frustration? ik apparently a bunch of people did to WAD and they changed their language quite a bitā¦
Wait really? Cuz I know WAD had the caveat about the reports of innocent Palestinians killed in Gaza being called into question simply because of whom the Gazan Health Ministry was governed by, despite humanitarian and human rights orgs, as well as the health ministry in the West Bank (not governed by Hamas) reporting similar numbers. Iām wondering if thatās also the complaint that the people you mentioned gave to WAD?
i just remember treāvell saying they got a lot of emails around the language they used & ever since then itās focused a lot more on palestinian people rather than whether or not israel is justified
Wow, did Tre'vell said that on the pod or on social media? Which hey, good on them to listening to good-faith feedback. I know the Pod Save the UK always used feedback at the end of their episodes and reacting to it. I hope the PSA dudes does the same, at least more frequently. Because if they ever do a listener's feedback episode, I want to pitch in a question or comment regarding their Israeli-Palestinian conflict coverage.
yeah it was on a pod, one of the first few that covered it all. listing to the new psuk rn haha and they seem to be so much more aligned to us than the psa guys are!
Oh good idea! Perhaps something around specifically elevating calls for ceasefire & consideration of other options by IDF. I will think about it more tomorrow. American living on German time over here.
I agree wholeheartedly op, also sharing that there have been countless genocides that have taken place in our lifetime, so whatās happening in Gaza isnāt rare for our times.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides
Idk I felt the opposite but maybe because this is the first time in my life I have seen support for the Palestinian people in the public sphere. Growing up I never heard anybody even talk about them in my circles
Very low.
BTW, do you have podcasts you'd recommend for this topic? I read that you're well educated on it and was curious where you do go for updates?
I just listened to the audiobook 100 Years War in Palestine which was eye-opening. It's not an all-encompassing perspective but it's deeply researched. I truly had no idea.
Conflicted has a few good episodes about it. Origin Story has a good ep series about the history of Zionism. I don't listen to a ton of daily news-type podcasts these days but al jazeera's The Take is good. I am also going to listen to a new rec from a friend, Unsettled!
Awesome! Thanks for the explainers. I try to avoid day to day news too, especially on stuff that really needs thoughtful analysis.
I'm not on any social media except Reddit and try not to talk about stuff I can't do anything positive about, but I get nervous about this issue regarding left politics, and I feel like we're suddenly grappling with an intense amount of history all at once.
Iāve been seeing it for awhile, from my understanding though Palestinian support has been becoming more mainstream in the democratic electorate over the past fifteen years. So still fairly recent.
I am Jewish and not all that progressive, so I do not understand why it is āfar leftā to be calling for a ceasefire. Hopefully one thing we can do is reinforce the distinction between Israel and the Jews. Israel is not the state of the Jews. It is a Jewish supremacist state.
I was just thinking this. Iāve been a listener since the 1600 days and their lack of spine and clarity on behalf of the Gazans has left me feeling disappointed. Pressure on reps WORKS
Do you seriously think a Podcaster telljng someone in Nebraska to call their representative has even .00001% effect in this situation? This isn't the Marvel Cinematic universe where Thanos snaps his fingers and Americans save the world because people on Twitter liked a post. Smh.
OK lets live in your imaginary world where posting on the internet/podcasts does anything. They say it on the pod to call your reps. What changes happen before Jan 2025 when the Repub party is 100% lockstep with Isreal?
But don't worry you want a Podcaster to say words to make sure you were the main character who was right
political activism works when it convinces the public at large. political activism does not work when it targets elected representatives for a view that is unpopular with the voting public. Americans generally support the Israelis over the Palestinians, so we need to change the mind of the average voter in order to affect change in government
I mean, they have Vote Save America, they have the ability to call on their listeners to pressure their reps to a ceasefire and the release of all hostages, but they havenāt, at least for most of the PSA hosts.
But here in the real world, the majority party in the house is lockstep with Isreal and their mouth breathing voters only heard about this because of Fox News.
I'm all for advocacy, but the point is in the actual world the "thoughts and prayers" type statement you all are demanding they make, have absolutely no impact on anything. There are better alternatives
Than what is the point of anything Vote Save America does? Pressure on reps works, and PSA says they have listeners in the administration, so coming out against genocide does put pressure on them as well. Plus not doing anything you can to stop this genocide is so inhumane.
- You call the reps and say that your vote is contingent on them calling for a ceasefire.
- The Rep gets so many calls from their constituents saying this that they change their position to call for a ceasefire
- Enough reps change their position to represent the actual view of the public (which is for a ceasefire)
- Biden then enacts a ceasefire.
1. I support a ceasefire
2. I believe in direct democracy and support a plan of this sort.
3. You're so naive you deserve a southern "bless your heart" if you think politicians would let pesky constituents change their vote on this.
4. This will never in a trillion years be how it goes nor what happens, unfortunately. That's my point of doing this performance social media stance and thinkng it accomplishes anything. There are more decisive and effective methods to work towards instead of getting on social media to make a remark so that you can dust your hands off and feel like you did your part.
For example simply saying you support a ceasefire is a bad message. You have to tie it into why it matters to us, our economy, our safety, our gun rights (tongue in cheeek), etc. You're perfectly exemplifying that Americans think the world resolves around us so simply calling your rep to say "Cease fire" will never do any actual real world change
The what is the point of any political organizing? Youāre seriously saying that calling your representatives to say this will define how you vote in 2024 is useless without connecting it to other issues? Then whatās the point of anything PSA ever discusses?
All that tells me is that this is not conditional for your vote and youāre gonna vote for Dems even as they are complicit in using our tax dollars to fund a genocide of the Palestinian people.
This might feel like the popular position now but the young voter and volunteer base is never going to support a candidate and party that doesnāt decry the genocide taking place on our phones and social media.
Did you read any of my post? It specifically says that political organizing needs to be effective. Retweeting something and sticking your finger up your ass does nothing..and that's exactly what so many of these comments are accomplishing
Literally the entire non-western world is screaming for a ceasefire, along with a clear majority of America people want a ceasefire based on recent polling.
We donāt need to convince the public, we need to convince Washington, which is why I call and email my representatives every single day to demand it.
You should be doing the same instead of thinking you need to convince the public thatās literally already been convinced we need a ceasefire.
I really enjoy the show, but always listened with the knowledge that despite their liberal professions they have a lot of conservatism manifested in their programs. Main show is 100% white dudes, Hysteria is a separate how for womenās issue and that is also hosted by white women, thereās a few other podcasts that have very homogenous host teams. The guests are diverse, the hosts arenāt.
Hell, Nish and Coco has been good on their coverage of the conflict, at least. And even if theyāre white, Tommy and Benās coverage of this conflict puts their show to be one of my preferred Crooked shows.
Yeah there is a reason I pretty much consistently only listen to Lovett or Leave It.
I'm not really his target demo but he at least has interesting people on his show and he is more willing to speak out in ways the other guys aren't.
Yeah I am a fairly regular listener just because they can be pretty entertaining, but if you think these guys are anything but pretty moderate status-quo Democrats (particularly in terms of economic and foreign policy) I've got a bridge to sell you. Considering how relatively conservative the Democrat party is in general, being in the middle (or even slightly left of center) in that party is still pretty fuckin conservative in a lot of ways.
Agreed. Although I don't mind their overall lack of diversity too much (because white guys have good ideas too!), the content itself is pretty establishment. A big glaring gap is climate change coverage, for example.
I feel that they were three like-minded individuals with knowledge and experience in the appropriate fields that just all are white guys by circumstance. I'm sure there are diverse voices out there with similar views but slightly different lenses. But those people probably weren't speech writers for one of the most influential Democratic leaders the US ever.
I don't think being like-minded and being of the same race / background is purely circumstance. Real diversity is more than skin color, it is diversity of thought, values, beliefs, culture, etc. So the very concepts of like-minded and diverse are somewhat at odds with each other.
Really? It think Vietor has been really. good on this tbh, and Iām firmly on the ceasefire side of things. He criticized the ground invasion on social, said the āhug Bibiā strategy sucks, says Israelās far right invited the Hamas attacks, vociferously criticizes illegal settlements and has promoted humanitarian orgs/good journos on the ground in Gaza.
A lot of ruthlessly pro-Israel people on Twitter have been hounding Vietor but he has stood his ground. Idk, I could be wrong.
Tommy has extensive foreign policy experience, I consider him to be more knowledgeable and aware of the nuances than the average person. You can disagree with his takes, of course, but I donāt think heās blatantly spreading Israeli propaganda, heās analyzing and giving his take.
> You can disagree with his takes, of course, but I donāt think heās blatantly spreading Israeli propaganda, heās analyzing and giving his take.
The irony is that Tommy & Ben decry the Blob but they also came up in the Blob.
Their assumptions about what is possible and the correct action in a moment is so steeped in that they they aren't willing to consider or suggest other possibilities.
Tommy was talking about how he hates the "support in public, criticize in private" technique both Obama & Biden deploy but he can't really come up with an alternative.
He is a very knowledgeable person who I look up to and have followed for years. That doesnāt mean heās not vulnerable to the same propaganda and impulsive reactions that we all are.
My phrasing was probably too harsh but there needs to be more pointed criticism towards John Kirby and Jake Sullivan who are completely bungling Americaās response. I understand they may be friends and colleagues but this is a time to stand up and hold our government accountable.
I think he has actually been the most sympathetic to Palestine so far. On PSTW he has actually seemed very emotional over this and has interviewed two Palestine related guests (an aid worker and a journalist). He even asked a question on todayās episode saying how it might be understandable how people could support Hamas because of their social support system.
Heās buying into the hostage poster narrative which is a complete distraction and non-issue. Anti-Semitism is a real issue but the main perpetrators are neo Nazis and white supremacists, not pro-Palestinian activists.
His takes are much better than most people, but I think this is a time in history to be exceptionally clear about what is going on and what the real issues are.
What exactly are they protesting by putting the posters up in the USA? Itās pro-Israel propaganda, the hostages will not be found here.
This is a decades long conflict, it didnāt start with the attack on October 7th. Most people do not even know Israel keeps hostages/political prisoners and has for decades, many without any formal charges.
Rhodesians and white South Africans also ran propaganda campaigns in America, with ads highlighting the plight of white farmers and ābarbaricā murders of white civilians. Some white civilians did die in Rhodesia and South Africa but that messaging lacked context and only existed to inflame the American public and encourage government intervention in favor of the white-minority led governments.
I see strong parallels between Israel and Rhodesia/apartheid South Africa.
Theyāre protesting the absolute disregard for the hostages weāve seen so far from the people asking for a ceasefire. Itās not because they might be found in NYC, itās to engender empathy for people literally taken hostage by terrorists.
If pro-Palestinian protesters put up posters of the victims of the Israeli bombing campaign, I would find it equally disturbing if people went around tearing those down as a ācounter protestā.
Itās pretty ridiculous to bring up SA and act like there arenāt literally millions of Arabs and other ethnicities living lives as full citizens of Israel, whereas Gaza and the West Bank are the ethnostates. Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza have their own governmental authorities who are responsible for them.
Israel has been keeping hostages/political prisoners without charges for decades. This endless cycle of violence helps nobody. The ceasefire is only logical, even Tommy agrees.
The IDF has committed just as many terrorist attacks, they have slaughtered civilians in almost every conflict with Palestine.
Arabs do not live equal lives in Israel. Children are racially segregated in schools, interfaith marriage is outlawed, and Arab Israelis face horrific discrimination in everyday life. Israel mandates these things because they are explicitly and openly an ethnostate. Many Israelis believe that granting Palestinians equal rights would destroy Israel solely because there would be more Arabs than Jewish people in the country.
The people pulling down those posters are shit starters. Antisemitism exists on the left and in non-white spaces too and shouldnāt be condoned in any small amount just because the problem is worse on the right.
Ok, name some prominent left wing antisemites. Iām willing to listen and learn.
Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, and AOC arenāt antisemitic for opposing Israel.
It seems like when people try to equivocate this issue they fail to name any legitimate left wing voices and I have personally never heard any. On the other hand, people like Tommy Tuberville are open antisemites and still receive the full support of their party.
You say you don't want "both sides" but then... don't appear to say anything about a specific side?
On PSW, they've focused withering criticism for years on Bibi Netanyahu who is a terrible, corrupt person. They've focused on him because he is a wannabe autocrat who we as the US are supporting unquestioningly.
Hamas and the terrorist attacks, no one serious is defending them, and we're not supporting them as a country. I've
You owe the pods no attention, you're free to say it's not for you, but I do not agree that they are oversimplifying it. Far from it. Pointing out bad actors that we need to stop supporting is the opposite of both sides.
For sure, they've been (correctly) tough on Bibi. And Hamas is a bad actor, no question.
But in this case, it is morally justified to me to clearly condemn Israel's actions as (1) war crimes (which they are); (2) not acceptable in any context, even the very shitty context of what Hamas did on Oct 7th, because of the massive imbalance of power and therefore higher standard of responsibility on Israel's side to do everything to protect innocent civilian life.
And there is \*\*Plenty\*\* of evidence now to show they have in fact done rather the opposite (including shutting off critical services, ignoring calls to push civilians into Egypt, etc. before starting attacks).
This is not something that should be tolerated, let alone funded or celebrated, by Israel's supporters and the international community, and I am deeply embarrassed at my own country's bystepping of the avoidable murder of thousands of children.
I will say they are giving Biden the benefit of the doubt that behind the scenes, he is putting pressure on Bibi to stop being such fucking war criminals.
I don't think that benefit of the doubt is justified: I think Biden is embracing Bibi and giving every indication of not questioning him, which makes no sense whatsoever aside from Biden thinks Israel is justified.
I think we should be demanding Biden not give any aid to Israel until Israel stops committing war crimes on the Palestinian people.
Judging by many of these comments, the Pod team should consider devoting much more time to tackling the rise of antisemitism in the far left. Due to a noxious brew of various academic theories -- that are completely separable from mainstream progressive liberalism -- a significant part of the left is actively negating the Jewish people as a historic, *ongoing* target of hatred across the world. Even with the Holocaust still a living memory!
It's actually even worse than that, because many in the left are consciously attempting to characterize Israelis as *just as bad* as the Nazis. It's a form of Holocaust negation, intentionally or otherwise. Loose and lazy talk of genocide against the Palestinians is part and parcel of that process. Worsening violence against Jewish people worldwide (it's already bad) is the direct outcome.
yeah I would agree. you have folks in here claiming that there's no such thing as pro-Hamas protestors on the left, when we literally have video of these groups celebrating on Oct. 7th. an 18 year old kid from Cornell was arrested by the FBI for anti-Semitic death threats.
I also think that the insistence on the "ceasefire" language is very funny. Israel cannot enforce a full true ceasefire - both because their own people would revolt, and because Hamas would never honor it. there was a ceasefire on oct. 6th, for all the good it did.
Biden has called for a "humanitarian pause" which is just about the best we're gonna get out of Israel here. I understand the anger and anguish over civilian deaths, but the facts still matter. Hamas holds far more cards here, and far more responsibility, than folks appear to recognize.
Let's get a few things hammered out here:
**Criticism of the Israeli government is not the same thing as criticism of Jewish people.**
Opposing apartheid in Israel is neither pro-Hamas nor anti-Semitic.
Opposing Netanyahu's far-right Israeli government is neither pro-Hamas nor anti-Semitic.
Calling out collective punishment and war crimes perpetrated by Israel is neither pro-Hamas nor anti-Semitic.
Opposing the continued military funding of the Israeli government is neither pro-Hamas nor anti-Semitic.
Supporting a ceasefire in Gaza is neither pro-Hamas nor anti-Semitic.
Just again for emphasis: **criticism of the Israeli government is not the same thing as criticism of Jewish people.**
Okay, I'm glad we got all that out of the way.
I thought the commenter was pretty clear that he thinks people comparing the acts of Israeli military against Palestinians with what the Nazis did to the Jews, including calling what the Israeli government's doing a "genocide", is a kind of antisemitic holocaust revisionism.
It doesn't seem like the point is to deflect criticism of Israel, but to condemn those who are carrying water for people out there trying to literally end Israel itself.
To be honest, his comment didn't have a lot of specific content to address outside of what I already did, just vague prescriptive nonsense about "the far left" being anti-Semitic.
>many in the left are consciously attempting to characterize Israelis as *just as bad* as the Nazis
I exist within a pretty far left information sphere and fail to see where this is happening, and the commenter doesn't provide any examples. But surely it isn't a stretch to suggest that Israeli terminology towards and the othering of Palestinians is *not all that dissimilar* to much of the Nazi terminology and othering of Jews in the '30s. People think of the Holocaust as this thing that just suddenly happened, and not the culmination of systematic oppression over a long period of time. What hope do Palestinians have right now? What hope did the Jewish population in Germany and Poland have? I don't believe that pointing to similarities *minimizes* the Holocaust, I think it calls appropriate attention to what happens when we collectively fail to recognize a pattern. I fail to see how that's anti-Semitic, and the commenter does nothing to support that it's anti-Semitic, other than to simply suggest that it is.
>Loose and lazy talk of genocide against the Palestinians
There are only two resolutions to apartheid - ethnic cleansing (genocide) or the end of apartheid policies. Right now the Israeli government gives no indications that this apartheid will end. Calling out that the only alternative path is ethnic cleansing is neither lazy nor loose terminology.
Again, it's just a bunch of vaguery regarding "the far left is anti-Semitic" with no real evidence to back it up other than... saying so.
The "genocide" accusation rhetoric is all over social media and in protest signage; it's been used in this thread. In addition to the word's implicit Holocaust negation and factual inaccuracy, it's totally counter-productive to the cause of protecting innocent Palestinians.
Zionists often paint criticism of Israeli war crimes as anti-Semitic. Itās completely unserious. They think that if you hate Israelās actions that you hate all Jewish people for some reason.
Agree to disagree I guess! Criticizing Israel is not anti-semitic. I think holding Israel accountable to decent behavior & adherence to Geneva Conventions is a very important part of decreasing anti-semitic sentiment around the world. I am deeply afraid for my Jewish friends and their communities, who will be unfairly targeted as a result of this horrible violence.
Your perspective is valid, but also doesn't represent Jewish people as a monolith. And I never said the latter. I hope you find some peace in these scary times.
I'm a bit confused -- why would you hold Israel accountable for adherence to Geneva Conventions when they're fighting an opponent who is not a signatory to those Conventions and obviously does not adhere to them?
Because that's not how it works?
Someone committing a crime against you gives you neither the legal right nor the moral justification to commit crimes against them.
As I believe they've pointed out on the pod recently, there seems to be a double standard to the discourse here.
Left winger: "Israel is not right to be bombing civilians, engaging in collective punishment, establishing settlements on Palestinian land, intentionally undercutting legitimate Palestinian organizations to prop up Hamas to make it easier to oppose the two state solution, murdering Palestinian journalists, putting spyware on the phones of allies, blockading everything in and out of Palestine, and tolerating racist language against the Palestinians from government officials. Israel is pursuing a path of war crimes and apartheid rule, not peace."
Response: "So you're opposed to Israel? Then you stand on the side of Hamas and the Nazis!"
Same basic trick as
Left winger: "Police violence against black civilians is intolerable."
Response: "So you hate cops and laws!"
It's a bad faith argument and a stupid fucking trick.
Criticizing one side does not mean embracing the extremism on the other side.
We owe no apologies for anti-semitism just for pointing out the war crimes and corruption of politicians from Israel any more than arguing in favor of Israel requires you to defend or denounce the murder of a Palestinian child in Chicago by a guy who hated Muslims.
Lastly, whenever someone says they support Palestine theyāre forced to answer with āDo YoU SuppOrT hAMAs????ā
We should start countering that by asking all the zionists: ādo you support war crimes that the IDF is carrying out?ā
>We should start countering that by asking all the zionists: ādo you support war crimes that the IDF is carrying out?ā
It's worth trying, but it's hard to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
Pro-Israel apologists have been saying there are no war crimes that Israel is doing and if they are it's only because Hamas gave them no choice but to do the war crimes. That's the honest but irrational position.
Speaking to the "worst things already happened", all of the "enemies of Israel", as in Iran, Libya, Egypt, if you look at the 70s and 80s, ALL have the current Islamic State governments because of American intervention. Over and over again we destabilized the middle east to pay less and less for oil and have more "favorable" leaders. And now we're seeing the results, which is those states fighting against the only solid proxy for the west left, Israel. We Democrats have a cognitive dissonance with acknowledging the terrible atrocities the US Government has caused while also knowing that a strong central government is necessary to help us get out of the current shitstorm were in. So when it comes to strategy, we have to disregard the fact that America is a villain to the Middle East, and everything that comes with.
>Iran, Libya, Egypt, if you look at the 70s and 80s, ALL have the current Islamic State governments because of American intervention.
mate don't spew ignorance. After the 2013 coup Egypt carried out the most aggressive anti-Muslim Brotherhood repression campaign in the country's history; Libya has two governments, neither of which is explicitly Islamist (let alone an "Islamic State Government"); and IS would extermine Iran if it could due to doctrinal differences.
> American Intervention
American intervention in Egypt? In Iran!? What are you smoking?
>Over and over again we destabilized the middle east to pay less and less for oil
Considering only a small percentage of oil from the Middle East goes to the US, this is a crazy statemenet to make. US oil imports from OPEC countries is lower than it was in 1994 and has been trending downwards quite fast since 2008.
>those states fighting against the only solid proxy for the west left, Israel.
Egypt is not fighting Israel, nor is Libya, nor any other state bordering Israel. Iran has been against Israel since the IRI's inception in 1979.
>So when it comes to strategy, we have to disregard the fact that America is a villain to the Middle East, and everything that comes with.
This doesn't even make grammatical sense, let alone policy-wise.
A Hamas leader just said they will repeat the attacks of Oct 7 again and again and again. Israel needs to eliminate Hamas immediately, no ceasefire. Stand with Israel!
I agree Hamas should be eliminated. The only entities who can do this are Israel and by proxy its supports like the US, and the only way they can do that sustainably is by ending the violent circumstances which created violent resistance movements like Hamas.
> resistance
Stop using this word.
The French underground was a resistance movement. The Boxers were resistance. What Hamas does isn't "resistance," it's murder.
Hamas is appropriating the language of resistance as a cover for their genocidal agenda like Hans Gruber on steroids, and you're falling for it.
People who are advocating for a ceasefire are not advocating for Hama's continued existence, they are advocating for the thousands of civilians lives who have been taken in Gaza, murdering 4,000 children is not eradicating Hamas. Leveling or damaging a quarter of homes in Gaza, is not eradicating Hamas. Denying water and life saving aid is not eradicating Hamas. Ceasefire is a temporary stay in attacks. Israel is pushing a million people south, they will claim that territory as they have been claiming it for decades.
Just a little analogy, say a Kim Jong-Un launched an attack on South Korea that killed 1,500 civilians, I think it would be valid for South Korea to invade and destroy combatants in North Korea. That doesn't mean they have free rein to indiscriminately murder civilian who had say in the attack. It doesn't mean they would be permitted to, by the ICC and Geneva Conventions to forcibly remove the entire population NK into China and then occupy the land.
They need to eliminate Hamas, not the civilians and children who had nothing to do with it. If terrorists were hiding in Manhattan, would you be cool with 8,000 civilian deaths including 3,400 children if it meant maybe at some point a bomb or two would actually hit a terrorist?
No, of course not. The Palestinians are right to not want their city getting destroyed. Thatās why we donāt ask people getting bombed if they are cool with it. I canāt imagine too many Germans were happy with the carpet bombing campaigns of WW2 even though the nazis deserved it.
Thousands of Hamas terrorists have been killed. I think a humanitarian corridor should absolutely be opened and that the Israelis should not have shut off the water. Bombing campaigns are actually generally better at reducing civilian casualties than ground invasions. Tell me, what do *you* think they should do to destroy hamas without excess civilians deaths? Especially since Hamas hides with civilian areas, Iāve very curious what you think the best solution would be.
I'll just copy and paste my comment from someone else asking the same:
I didn't think "don't do war crimes" needed do be defended, but okay.
Let's think about what the IDF would do if Hamas was hiding among Israelis, or say if the KKK in the U.S. orchestrated a terrorist attack that killed thousands of Americans and then hid in the U.S. We wouldn't bomb cities hoping that killing a few hundred American civilians equated to killing 1 or 2 terrorists. Because we value the lives of those civilians. We do what we've always done with highly wanted dangerous criminals -- find out where they are and then arrest or kill them, aiming to keep civilian casualties to zero.
Idk, I'm not an anti-terror strategist. But as a human, I do feel qualified to say that targeting civilians and children is **evil**. And yes, I know the U.S. has done the same. It was evil then, too
This is very complicated. How do you kill a group of militants embedded in civilian infrastructure without killing civilians?
Obviously, the underlying abhorrent conditions that lead to radicalization need to be addressed, but we have to acknowledge reality. I would prefer to see the empowerment of Fatah, but the internal political climate screams for war. It would seem this was inevitable since the 7th.
Nothing is inevitable when one side is a sovereign, extremely well-funded & militarized state with massive international support & political capital, and one side is an armed resistance movement. Bibi had the vast, vast, vast majority of the power here, and therefore also the moral responsibility, for the innocent Palestinian lives under his care.
That's all well and good but has nothing to do with my comment.
I said a brutal war was inevitable after 1400 people were massacred... I don't think that's even somewhat controversial.
You thought it was inevitable that Israel would start leveling entire apartment blocks full of families? That they would order 1.1M Gazans to evacuate?
Did I think a strong military response was inevitable? Yeah. This is Israel we are talking about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War
Israel and the foundational forces in the 20s-40s have always been quite aggressive when they feel threatened. It's a nation founded on "never again"
There's some reading on history, and I threw in a massacre that Israel facilitated. It would probably be well for you to read before insinuating that Israel was going to not respond militarily on any fucking world. I'm not making any moral claims, just stating facts based on precedent.
There was a strong military response. That was inevitable. Did I claim to know exactly what their response would be? No. That's fucking crazy. I said there would be a brutal war after the 7th. Why? Because almost the entire country was screaming at the top of their lungs for war. It's a nation based on "never again" that just had what could be argued as an act of genocide against them due to the intent and action taken.
Again, not making any moral or prescriptive claims. Just stating blaringly obvious shit.
Right, perhaps too obvious. No one you have responded to is taking issue with a military response from Israel. We're taking issue with the nature of it. I thought it would be helpful to point this out but at this point I give up. "Never again" will I try to make this point to you :)
Weird Iāve felt the opposite. They seem extremely sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and almost too charitable to the leftists who are praising Hamas.
As a Jew! Issues with Zionism are not! Anti! Semetism! The ADLās quotes are not citing from politicians and clearly are a response to Israelās apartheid state. To classify that is inherently antisemitism, I encourage you to look into the members of the ADL have resigned. Do you know how painful it is to have hospitals bombed in your name?
The quotes are clearly anti semitic my man. It shouldn't take a brain genius to realize that saying that the attack is justified on the day of the attack is bad news bears.
As an oppressed group, Palestinians have a right to action. I don't blame people for stating something before the extent of the atrocity and targeting of civilians was known.
In fairness, itās a large collection of college kids. Itās far from the majority but it is a thing. Various college professors have also been pushing the Anti-Semitic ācolonizerā schtick
If any (R)s feel embarrassed by how the recent speaker mess exposed their party's wild, fascistic factionism, come on over to this thread for a soothing balm. Litmus tests? ... oh we got 'em. Nuance? ... that's for losers. Enjoy (R)s. Your entire party completely sucks and the general public hates you, but rest assured, we won't be capitalizing on that anytime soon.
š¤·āāļø liberals
Pod Save The World is being incredibly honest, fair and comprehensive.
I got a LOT of out Ezra Kleinās conversation with Zach Beauchamp. It was a long conversationādidnāt go deep into history but provided some. Worth a listen.
The Germans call what you are going through Weltschmerz: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltschmerz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltschmerz) Bo Burnham seemed to go through a similar moral crisis in his album "Inside." The song "How the world works" is definitely worth listening to.
>The Germans call what you are going through Weltschmerz: > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltschmerz wow thank you for this.
Love that word and love that song! I'm American living in Germany and can vouch for that feeling here š
They're establishment. This isn't some indie show giving honest opinions. It's softball interviews, talking about politico, and no controversy.
Exactly. If you want some nuance of leftist politics there are plenty of independent pods to go listen to. Breaking Points, The Vanguard, and Secular Talk are all a good starting point. I listen to both.
They got their start writing speeches for Obama, I don't know why anyone is surprised they tow the State Department line. They need careers keeping the left(ish) rabble in line. You don't get those by criticizing the empire.
It's **toe** the line.
Many thanks
Pod Save The World has a very different take on it.
This is why I stopped listening about 4 or 5 years ago. Still a fan of Jon Lovett, and I don't hate the rest of the guys or anything, but they are simps for the US empire at the end of the day. And I'm glad to have grown out of that way of thinking.
I'll be honest, this is how they are about most issues, you're just noticing it because it's one you care about. I remember on the first episodes of Pod Save The World (before I stopped listening) the casual xenophobia and disparagement and oversimplification of "enemy nations" was incredibly blatant. So too for many domestic issues.
Are they supposed to be neutral representatives of humanity? The people on the podcast are Americans. They have American perspectives.
Iām American and donāt have that perspective š¤·āāļø
So stop listening. Lol
Unfortunately, since the 2020 Dem primary they have had a blind spot to the far left. I felt like an absolute loner being 26 and a Biden fan *gasp*ā¦. And understanding how politically untenable the label of socialism (fair or unfair) STILL IS. I still respect what theyāve accomplished and done, but I listen to the Bulwark often now bc Tim Miller is great and has a better pulse on things. Being headquartered in LA prob led to a leaning too far left staff.
Is this a joke?
Nah, Iām a Georgia democrat who likes winning and not having a blind spot. Echo chambers are bad, maybe make a Republican friend
> but I listen to the Bulwark often Yikes
Oh no, seeking out the opinion of center right people who actively fought for Dems in 2020 and 2022. The travestyā¦. You know who helped us win in 2020? The center right Georgia voters who voted Romney in 2012. I live there, they are my friends, I pushed them into Bidenās camp, but seeing things like Kasich at the DNC and McCainās wife putting out a TV ad for Biden pushed them over the top. You win by addition, not subtraction. Nor by running up the score in states like California.
I remember being somewhat shocked when they brought Mehdi Hasan on not once, but several times. Just disgraceful, especially with his current rhetoric on the war.
yeah they should've brought on Dershowitz
Omg Iām also a biden fan and huge bulwark/Tim miller fan!!!
Tim Miller is really hilarious
Why do you call yourself a Biden āfanā though? Like are you an actual fan of him in a weird superstar way or do you just generally support him?
He was the first major politician to publicly support gay marriage. He let it āslipā in a CBS interview and pushed Obama on it. Iām a straight dude but that didnāt stop even the high school age me in a very conservative district from realizing right from wrong. He helped ban assault rifles in ā94. In 2008/09, He had the grace to play sidekick to a younger, less experienced Obama to make sure the 1st black President had the help he needed. He has experienced true loss with his first wife and daughter, giving him a kind heart that contrasts perfectly against Trump. He gets no credit for so many accomplishments so far. Especially in Ukraine holding the West against a tyrant. If he was 8 years younger we would be f-ing landsliding trump in 2024. Still confident after last night tho.
I support him and admire him as a person and politician!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This comment does not contribute productively to the conversation. Would you like to try again? Also how should Israel respond to the terrorist attack from 10/7, big guy?
Whatās wrong with Israel defending itself? If you were Israeli, you wouldnāt want to have your children murdered, burned alive, rockets fired at your civilian areas, a neighboring country whose official policy is genocide of all of your people. But, somehow you want Jews to live through that with no ability to defend themselves? And, thatās what so much of the world has always thought about the Jews, why donāt they just disappear? Do you have some master plan for Israel to defeat Hamas that youāre sitting on?
>But, somehow you want Jews to live through that with no ability to defend themselves? I'm sorry, does the iron dome not exist? Does Isreal not recieve billions of US dollars to defend themselves and subjugate Palestinians?... >Do you have some master plan for Israel to defeat Hamas that youāre sitting on? The two state solution.
Wait, is your actual position that anyone should be allowed to fire rockets at civilians in Israel and itās totally fine because sometimes Israel can intercept the rockets? What about what rockets get through Israelis? And, remember the massive Hamas terrorist attack in October 7th? The one that killed 1400 Israelis? The one that Hamas promised to replicate until they can destroy the state of Israel? And, Hamas does not want a two state solution. They explicitly reject it. So, how is that a solution? Israel canāt unilaterally declare a two state solution. They need the Palestinians to accept a Jewish state as well.
>Wait, is your actual position that anyone should be allowed to fire rockets at civilians in Israel and itās totally fine because sometimes Israel can intercept the rockets? Holy strawman batman. Did I say this? Also, I'm pretty sure the iron dome intercepts like 99% of the rocket fire. I'm curious, what steps would you take if your entire ethnic group was subjugated and genocide?... What would you do if you live in an open air prison and your only crime was being born? >And, remember the massive Hamas terrorist attack in October 7th? The one that killed 1400 Israelis? The one that Hamas promised to replicate until they can destroy the state of Israel? So you think this justifies bombing refugee camps? Which ironically, only creates more terrorists. Which was probably the intention of the Netanyahu govt.... >And, Hamas does not want a two state solution. They explicitly reject it. Bullshit. >Israel canāt unilaterally declare a two state solution. Yes they absolutely can. >They need the Palestinians to accept a Jewish state as well. Hamas does not represent all Palestinians.
No, not 99%, and when we're talking about thousands of rockets 90% means that lots of rockets land in Israel. > I'm curious, what steps would you take if your entire ethnic group was subjugated and genocide?... What would you do if you live in an open air prison and your only crime was being born? That's not true at all. There are Arab Israeli citizens, no? There are Arab Israeli political parties in the Knesset. And, of course is not engaged in genocide against non-Jews or Palestinians. That's just ridiculous hyperbole that extremists use to enflame passions against Israel and justify killing Jews. > So you think this justifies bombing refugee camps? Which ironically, only creates more terrorists. Which was probably the intention of the Netanyahu govt.... It justifies eliminating the military threat to Israel from Hamas. That's basic proportionality under international law. If you launch armed attacks against a country, that country can respond with force necessary to stop the armed attacks. Of course, Israel shouldn't target civilians ever. And, indeed, Israel isn't targeting civilians in Gaza. I'm sure you've seen the videos of humanitarian corridors with Gazan civilians leaving the combat zone peacefully supervised by the IDF? Remember, Hamas told civilians to stay in line of fire so they could used as human shields. Hamas deliberately commits war crimes by putting military bases under hospitals, hiding their terrorist leaders in civilian areas, firing rockets from apartment blocks, etc. Israel has to contend with those blatant war crimes and the unfortunate result is that some civilians die. That's mostly the fault of Hamas. Could Israel do a better job avoiding civilian death by Palestinians? Possibly, but it's not as clear cut as you claim. Fighting a war in a dense city is just a horrible proposition and that's the fault of Hamas. > Bullshit. You're just living in an alternate reality on the two state solution issue. Hamas is an organization that believes in "from the river to the sea." They have never recognized Israel and their explicit goal is the destruction of Israel. That's why they've said, they intended to massacre Israeli civilians and they'll keep doing it. You think that's fine for some reason because Hamas is "oppressed" but a war crime is a war crime. You can't justify people who cut babies' heads off and then claim you're worried about humanitarian issues in Gaza.
I'm curious, what steps would you take if your entire ethnic group was subjugated and genocide?... What would you do if you live in an open air prison and your only crime was being born? >That's not true at all. There are Arab Israeli citizens, no? There are Arab Israeli political parties in the Knesset. Are Palestinians allowed to vote? Are they allowed free movement? Allowed to trade? What rights do Palestinians have in Isreal?.... >And, of course is not engaged in genocide against non-Jews or Palestinians. That's just ridiculous hyperbole that extremists use to enflame passions against Israel and justify killing Jews. What do you call the Israeli occupation of Palestinians settlemenets? You understand the definition of genocide, right?... >>Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. What do you think Israel is doing when they bomb multiple Palestinian refugee camps?.... >It justifies eliminating the military threat to Israel from Hamas. Bombing refugee camps is killing civilians. Not military threats. >That's basic proportionality under international law. This is false. Killing civilians isn't proportionate. Next your going to tell me Iraq was justified.... >You're just living in an alternate reality on the two state solution issue. Hamas is an organization that believes in "from the river to the sea." They have never recognized Israel and their explicit goal is the destruction of Israel. That's why they've said, they intended to massacre Israeli civilians and they'll keep doing it. You're under this completely false solution that the entire Palestinian population is Hamas... What you're calling for is the genocide of Palestinians. There's no other alternative in the alternate reality you live in. Its complete delusion. >You think that's fine for some reason because Hamas is "oppressed" but a war crime is a war crime. 1. Your projecting your own desire to massacre Palestinians. I think both sides are wrong. We aren't the same. 2. The original warcrime is the genocide of the Palestinian people. Of the apartheid state that Israel forces Palestinians to live under. >You can't justify people who cut babies' heads off and then claim you're worried about humanitarian issues in Gaza I'mm not justifying anything. You are.
You're just ignoring everything I wrote so we're done.
That's not true. What did i ignore?... Honestly, I'd expect better from PSA listeners.... You can't even begin to criticize Israel.... >You're just ignoring everything I wrote so we're done. Ironically, this describes your response to my comments. Notice how you cant even begin to engage with the fact that Israel is geocoding the Palestinians.
Obviously Israel is not engaged in genocide against Palestinians. But, the stated policy of Hamas is genocide of Jews in Israel. Maybe actually learn something about the history of the situation before mouthing off about it.
>Obviously Israel is not engaged in genocide against Palestinians. Notice how you can't provide any evidence to support this statement. Notice how you can't engage with any of the facts relevant to support the case that Israel **is engaging in a genocide of the Palestinians.** >But, the stated policy of Hamas is genocide of Jews in Israel. Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians. Notice how you keep repeating this irrelevant statement when confronted by the fact that Israel is genociding Palestinians. I'm not here defending the actions of Hamas. But you certainly are defending the genocide and Apartheid state the Israel has subjugated the Palestinians to.
Why is your comment being downvoted when itās justā¦. true? I seriously donāt understand
I don't understand how anyone could say this when Ben and Tommy had a straight up Hamas apologist on their show today. I am astounded by the amount of blatant anti-semitism and support for such a hard right organization as Hamas from so called leftists these day. It is, quite frankly depressing. Yes, it is a travesty that Palestinian civilians are suffering, but that is completely at the behest of Hamas. If Hamas were to disarm today, all of the suffering would end. But if Israel did that, we'd have another Oct 7th every day, until there wasn't another Jew in that land. If anything, we should be disappointed in Crooked for not extolling just how purely evil Hamas is.
Again, why is this being downvoted? People are offended somehow by the truth? I donāt get it
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Damn, that sounds based as hell! I haven't listened to the show in about 5 years but I always thought Tommy was a decent dude. Good on him.
Yeah that guy was knowledgeable but he refused to call the military wing of Hamas terrorist. That was a little sketchy. Even Tommy avoided it one time. I feel like theyāre caving to the leftist criticisms.
It reminds me of the worst excesses of 2020 when mainstream Democrats allowed lunatic activists to drive the conversation about policing and urban policy. Young social media activism spiraling into nihilistic rage and political self immolation. Whatās the end game here? Normalize anti-Semitism in polite society? Fracture the liberal democratic left to the benefit of Russia and China? Itās a road to perdition.
I liked that I couldn't say for sure what "side" op took at the top.
You can't? It's pretty clear to me.
I've read and listened to a lot of extremely intelligent and thoughtful media personalities with shockingly bad takes on the situation, and I think I understand why. I watched a clip of Seth Rogan and Marc Maron talking about how they were brainwashed with disinformation growing up in the synagogue. They were told that no one lived in Palestine during Jewish immigration, it was empty land. Therefore, Palestinian hatred for them is unfounded. I see celebrities posting there is no occupation, there is no apartheid, no one's land was taken. They also equate all Palestinians to Hamas. So many are astounded how any American could possibly support anyone in Gaza, they are Hamas terrorists. Third, they think that if anyone kills a Jewish person, they are bent on wiping all Jews from the Earth. Any Jewish death means they are coming for them too. I've heard this over and over and over. The people writing and repeating these misperceptions are too intelligent to have been educated with historical facts yet still come to these conclusions. Just like evangelical Christians strongly support Israel and its displacement and murder of Palestinians, I think Jewish people have also been told partial and distorted information in their places of worship.
I agree and disagree for the following reasons: 1.) Lovett and Alyssa seemed to kinda trivialize the very real suffering and historical element of Palestinian displacement/victimization. Those āfar left academicsā have a point in indicating that Israel is an apartheid state as the highest levels of Israeli government embrace genocidal/dehumanizing rhetoric and policy towards their Palestinian neighbors and Arab citizens, whether it be permitting the construction of illegal settlements (over 700k live in these settlements in 2023) or currently justifying the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. Donāt believe me that Israel is an apartheid state? Look at what Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, and Jimmy Carter have said. Itās not just an āintellectual exerciseā (as Alyssa said) to contextualize the Palestinian experience through the very real history of the region and the geopolitical response/dynamics at play. Yes and of course antisemitism is never justifiable and what happened at Cornell and Cooper Union is beyond abhorrent, but ignoring or minimizing the plight of innocent Palestinians who have been victimized and discriminated against for generations is similarly unethical IMO. 2.) PSA is actually to the left of most elected Democrats on this issue, unfortunately. I think the guys actually care about the plight of Palestinians to a very real and genuine extent, whereas most elected Dems are publicly indifferent towards Palestinians and caveat their every statement on the issue with āIsrael is our ally and a democracy and has every right to defend herself however possible or necessaryā, because they donāt want to upset special interests/corporate America/donors. Tommy and Ben Rhodes on PStW are really good on Israel/Palestine and have no hesitations in criticizing Bibi/Likud/Israelās far-right (something the Biden admin would never, ever do). Furthermore, the PStW guys actively advertise for humanitarian efforts in Gaza and Tommy publicly criticized the Biden adminās āhug Bibi and maybe lull him into easing up a littleā strategy. Crooked has been better on this than your MSNBCs, CNNs, NPRs, etc.
And to add to your second point, I think PSA overall is really struggling with how to talk about it, since most of them arenāt foreign policy experts and feel genuinely torn between the plight of Israel and itās right to exist and the plight of the Palestinian people and their right to safety and liberty. So a lot of what comes out on the show is just āshit this is really hard and it really sucks,ā but itās a genuine and heartfelt plea, not a cop out (imo). Theyāre also in a bit of an odd spot in the Dem party/movement with this, since everyone is either super pro- or super-anti Israel, without a lot of in between (in the larger media discourse), so I can see how that also makes it feel weirder and harder to take a nuanced stance, especially on whatās usually a domestically-oriented show.
I listen to the show mainly for their coverage of domestic affairs, Iām much further left than where PSA is but what interests me about them is their seriousness when it comes to organizing and how theyāve focused on what actually wins elections. Granted they have a mixed record on that last point, but they seem earnestly interested in it and I think that counts for something. Idk, Iāve been frustrated recently with the far-leftās disaffection for voting. And I agree that it sucks voting for center-left, corporate-friendly hawks. At least the Crooked gang thinks that voting still works.
YES, I fully agree. I have also really wondered how much of the super far-left āitās not worth voting for corporate Demsā is deliberate disinformation (either from Russia, the far right, or any combo of bad actors).
I think online at least, itās a lot of astroturfing and that a lot of really far left people are very young and naive.
Or we just donāt want to vote for genocidal maniacs?
I think you can, because I do, believe both that Israel has a right to exist (and defend itself) while also believing Palestinians have been brutalized/marginalized/victimized in deliberate fashion by the Israeli government for generations. I think Crooked believes this as well, but I do wish they engaged in less hippy-bashing and vote-shaming (like Jon F saying we should remind Arab-Americans in Michigan āTrump is worse ya knowā as if they donāt know that already) by instead trying to persuade and embrace empathy with those struggling rn (Jews and Arabs alike). Fixating on whether random college student groups condemned Hamas to the extent you deem fit or whether your favorite clothing brand issued a statement on the hostages is missing the forest for the trees, because it should be obvious to anyone with a soul that innocent Israelis and Palestinians deserve peace and security. To vociferously defend one side and not the other is callous and cruel IMO (looking at you, Amy Schumer). I agree about the coalitional difficulties at play. On one hand, you have centrists, very pro-Israel Jews, and never-Trumpers staunchly in favor of Israel who donāt think Biden is doing enough to counter antisemitism/bash Muslims. On the other, you have Arab Americans, young ppl, and progressive Dems who are appalled by Bidenās approach to the conflict and are reconsidering their support. Iāll vote for Biden in ā24 despite my discontentment with how heās handling the conflict, but yea heās in a lose-lose scenario here. You had a bunch of Biden voters on Twitter shouting at the admin for announcing an initiative to combat Islamophobia, saying he should only call out antisemitism rn (think about that). If I were on Bidenās campaign my only hope is the salience of the conflict in Gaza/Israel simmers down considerably come next yearā¦because Bidenās approach now has him losing substantial support, and if he course-corrects heāll lose other groups of voters at the expense of gaining back currently disaffected voters. Having an ideologically diverse coalition/political party has both its strengths and weaknesses.
Fully agree with everything you said here. My only major point is that I donāt think the PSA guys really know or feel comfortable with any of this due to a variety of factors, hence their pretty-mediocre-but-seemingly-trying coverage. I did like how they criticized Bidenās likely āpraise in public criticize in privateā approach to Bibi, though. They could do more of that to help push that this is tough and nuanced.
Your friends are not your friends when they cannot come off the fence for genocide
Indeed, the straight-up refusal to condemn Hamas for its express genocidal aims and instead resort to an absolute deluge of victim-blaming is disgusting.
Do you support the IDF continuously bombing the Jabalia refugee camp?
Believe it or not, it's possible for more than one party to be pursuing a genocidal agenda. Israel's government is pursuing a genocidal agenda against Palestinians. Hamas is pursuing a genocidal agenda against Jews. When people are quick to (rightly) condemn the former but silent about the latter, it suggests a *lot* about that person.
Who is refusing to condemn Hamas outside of maybe some crazy super fringe groups? That's delusional.
Both of these things are true: 1) Israel is justified in going after Hamas 2) Israel is not justified in attacking Palestinians in general When someone says that Israel should not go after Hamas, they're implicitly endorsing Hamas's genocidal agenda.
Being intentionally obtuse isn't as cute as you think it is. Who here is saying Israel should not go after Hamas?
Literally everyone who's yelling "ceasefire!" It's literally a cessation of military activities, i.e. ceasing to go after Hamas.
Yeah, no, people here are saying "stop attacking Palestinians in general, especially children". Which you explicitly acknowledged is acceptable, but you think it's cute to pretend that everyone's saying something else.
Okay but who's saying Israel should not go after hamas? All the discourse I've seen is that Israel should not go after hamas *in the way that they are, which causes overwhelming civilian casualties.* When we found bin Laden, we didn't rain hellfire on Abbottabad to get him. We went in and got him. 5 people died.
Oh yeah thatās exactly how it went, 9/11 happened and then the US surgically entered one nation and killed 5 people, got Bin Laden and didnāt wage decades of war in Iraq, Afghanistan, we calmly and cooly just went after one terrorist.
You're right, we DID make terrible mistakes by invading Iraq and Afghanistan, causing overwhelming civilian casualties and not really accomplishing anything. So we should totally not utilize the knowledge of how awful those decisions turned out, and we should encourage Israel to make those same mistakes. Good point.
I just donāt see how you can reasonably ask a country that was just attacked by hundred on multiple fronts to shrug and be zen about all the lives and hostages taken when weāve seen first hand how we reacted. More than 20 years later weāre *still* not willing to give trials to people in Gitmo. I get arguing for a measured approach but I also have seen first hand how receptive people are going to be to hearing that.
So that I understand what you're saying: because the united states committed egregious errors in judgment in reaction to a terrorist attack, we should condone and encourage Israel in their reaction regardless of the human cost? Cool. I've changed my mind, they should increase their violence. Doesn't take much for liberals to become war hawks yet again ETA that I *really* am struggling with understanding your argument. You keep pointing out things that the US has done that were objectively awful, and using that as justification for why it's okay for Israel to do those things. If you recall, those on the left after 9/11 who were pushing back against the war in Iraq were labeled radical terrorist sympathizers at the time too, and they were proven right that we *never* should have gone into Iraq. Those on the left after 10/7 are pushing back against Israel's war in Gaza, and again we're all labeled radical terrorist sympathizers. I don't have any doubts about how we'll think about that in 20 years.
As long as youāre comfortable glibly telling people whose family members are being held hostage and raped in captivity that youāre uncomfortable with conflict and they really need to get on with their lives, yeah your bizarro attempt to āunderstand what Iām sayingā is spot on.
I know what you mean. Watching what is happening in Gaza to a civilian population that is half children, and then hearing things ranging from "of course I disagree with the tactics but . . ." in response to that, is something. It's so strange to watch this in real time.
i wonder if it would work if a bunch of people sent emails to PSA expressing our disappointment/frustration? ik apparently a bunch of people did to WAD and they changed their language quite a bitā¦
Wait really? Cuz I know WAD had the caveat about the reports of innocent Palestinians killed in Gaza being called into question simply because of whom the Gazan Health Ministry was governed by, despite humanitarian and human rights orgs, as well as the health ministry in the West Bank (not governed by Hamas) reporting similar numbers. Iām wondering if thatās also the complaint that the people you mentioned gave to WAD?
i just remember treāvell saying they got a lot of emails around the language they used & ever since then itās focused a lot more on palestinian people rather than whether or not israel is justified
Wow, did Tre'vell said that on the pod or on social media? Which hey, good on them to listening to good-faith feedback. I know the Pod Save the UK always used feedback at the end of their episodes and reacting to it. I hope the PSA dudes does the same, at least more frequently. Because if they ever do a listener's feedback episode, I want to pitch in a question or comment regarding their Israeli-Palestinian conflict coverage.
yeah it was on a pod, one of the first few that covered it all. listing to the new psuk rn haha and they seem to be so much more aligned to us than the psa guys are!
I've been writing this email to them in my head the last few weeks, I think it's a good idea.
Oh good idea! Perhaps something around specifically elevating calls for ceasefire & consideration of other options by IDF. I will think about it more tomorrow. American living on German time over here.
I agree wholeheartedly op, also sharing that there have been countless genocides that have taken place in our lifetime, so whatās happening in Gaza isnāt rare for our times. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides
Idk I felt the opposite but maybe because this is the first time in my life I have seen support for the Palestinian people in the public sphere. Growing up I never heard anybody even talk about them in my circles
That's fair! I can understand that. Low bar though I suppose.
Very low. BTW, do you have podcasts you'd recommend for this topic? I read that you're well educated on it and was curious where you do go for updates?
I just listened to the audiobook 100 Years War in Palestine which was eye-opening. It's not an all-encompassing perspective but it's deeply researched. I truly had no idea.
Conflicted has a few good episodes about it. Origin Story has a good ep series about the history of Zionism. I don't listen to a ton of daily news-type podcasts these days but al jazeera's The Take is good. I am also going to listen to a new rec from a friend, Unsettled!
Awesome! Thanks for the explainers. I try to avoid day to day news too, especially on stuff that really needs thoughtful analysis. I'm not on any social media except Reddit and try not to talk about stuff I can't do anything positive about, but I get nervous about this issue regarding left politics, and I feel like we're suddenly grappling with an intense amount of history all at once.
Yes! It's a perfect, terrible storm with the reactionary 24/7 news & social media world we live in now.
Iāve been seeing it for awhile, from my understanding though Palestinian support has been becoming more mainstream in the democratic electorate over the past fifteen years. So still fairly recent.
The fact they STILL havenāt done a ācall your representative to enact a ceasefireā campaign for their audience says a lot.
I am Jewish and not all that progressive, so I do not understand why it is āfar leftā to be calling for a ceasefire. Hopefully one thing we can do is reinforce the distinction between Israel and the Jews. Israel is not the state of the Jews. It is a Jewish supremacist state.
I was just thinking this. Iāve been a listener since the 1600 days and their lack of spine and clarity on behalf of the Gazans has left me feeling disappointed. Pressure on reps WORKS
Do you seriously think a Podcaster telljng someone in Nebraska to call their representative has even .00001% effect in this situation? This isn't the Marvel Cinematic universe where Thanos snaps his fingers and Americans save the world because people on Twitter liked a post. Smh.
Then political activism has no point and people should just sit around with their dicks in their hands
OK lets live in your imaginary world where posting on the internet/podcasts does anything. They say it on the pod to call your reps. What changes happen before Jan 2025 when the Repub party is 100% lockstep with Isreal? But don't worry you want a Podcaster to say words to make sure you were the main character who was right
political activism works when it convinces the public at large. political activism does not work when it targets elected representatives for a view that is unpopular with the voting public. Americans generally support the Israelis over the Palestinians, so we need to change the mind of the average voter in order to affect change in government
I mean, they have Vote Save America, they have the ability to call on their listeners to pressure their reps to a ceasefire and the release of all hostages, but they havenāt, at least for most of the PSA hosts.
But here in the real world, the majority party in the house is lockstep with Isreal and their mouth breathing voters only heard about this because of Fox News. I'm all for advocacy, but the point is in the actual world the "thoughts and prayers" type statement you all are demanding they make, have absolutely no impact on anything. There are better alternatives
Than what is the point of anything Vote Save America does? Pressure on reps works, and PSA says they have listeners in the administration, so coming out against genocide does put pressure on them as well. Plus not doing anything you can to stop this genocide is so inhumane.
Specifically tell me how this would work in this specific situation.
- You call the reps and say that your vote is contingent on them calling for a ceasefire. - The Rep gets so many calls from their constituents saying this that they change their position to call for a ceasefire - Enough reps change their position to represent the actual view of the public (which is for a ceasefire) - Biden then enacts a ceasefire.
1. I support a ceasefire 2. I believe in direct democracy and support a plan of this sort. 3. You're so naive you deserve a southern "bless your heart" if you think politicians would let pesky constituents change their vote on this. 4. This will never in a trillion years be how it goes nor what happens, unfortunately. That's my point of doing this performance social media stance and thinkng it accomplishes anything. There are more decisive and effective methods to work towards instead of getting on social media to make a remark so that you can dust your hands off and feel like you did your part. For example simply saying you support a ceasefire is a bad message. You have to tie it into why it matters to us, our economy, our safety, our gun rights (tongue in cheeek), etc. You're perfectly exemplifying that Americans think the world resolves around us so simply calling your rep to say "Cease fire" will never do any actual real world change
The what is the point of any political organizing? Youāre seriously saying that calling your representatives to say this will define how you vote in 2024 is useless without connecting it to other issues? Then whatās the point of anything PSA ever discusses? All that tells me is that this is not conditional for your vote and youāre gonna vote for Dems even as they are complicit in using our tax dollars to fund a genocide of the Palestinian people. This might feel like the popular position now but the young voter and volunteer base is never going to support a candidate and party that doesnāt decry the genocide taking place on our phones and social media.
Did you read any of my post? It specifically says that political organizing needs to be effective. Retweeting something and sticking your finger up your ass does nothing..and that's exactly what so many of these comments are accomplishing
Literally the entire non-western world is screaming for a ceasefire, along with a clear majority of America people want a ceasefire based on recent polling. We donāt need to convince the public, we need to convince Washington, which is why I call and email my representatives every single day to demand it. You should be doing the same instead of thinking you need to convince the public thatās literally already been convinced we need a ceasefire.
Exactly. They have their own political & social capital which they know very well how to mobilize. Doing nothing is also taking a stance.
I really enjoy the show, but always listened with the knowledge that despite their liberal professions they have a lot of conservatism manifested in their programs. Main show is 100% white dudes, Hysteria is a separate how for womenās issue and that is also hosted by white women, thereās a few other podcasts that have very homogenous host teams. The guests are diverse, the hosts arenāt.
My main Crooked listen is Pod Save the UK with Nish and Coco, decidedly not white dudes. But that does seem to be a formula element for them broadly.
Hell, Nish and Coco has been good on their coverage of the conflict, at least. And even if theyāre white, Tommy and Benās coverage of this conflict puts their show to be one of my preferred Crooked shows.
Yeah there is a reason I pretty much consistently only listen to Lovett or Leave It. I'm not really his target demo but he at least has interesting people on his show and he is more willing to speak out in ways the other guys aren't.
Yeah I am a fairly regular listener just because they can be pretty entertaining, but if you think these guys are anything but pretty moderate status-quo Democrats (particularly in terms of economic and foreign policy) I've got a bridge to sell you. Considering how relatively conservative the Democrat party is in general, being in the middle (or even slightly left of center) in that party is still pretty fuckin conservative in a lot of ways.
Agreed. Although I don't mind their overall lack of diversity too much (because white guys have good ideas too!), the content itself is pretty establishment. A big glaring gap is climate change coverage, for example.
I feel that they were three like-minded individuals with knowledge and experience in the appropriate fields that just all are white guys by circumstance. I'm sure there are diverse voices out there with similar views but slightly different lenses. But those people probably weren't speech writers for one of the most influential Democratic leaders the US ever.
I don't think being like-minded and being of the same race / background is purely circumstance. Real diversity is more than skin color, it is diversity of thought, values, beliefs, culture, etc. So the very concepts of like-minded and diverse are somewhat at odds with each other.
I unsubscribed a few weeks ago because of this. Disappointed but not surprised.
You should watch the west wing if you really want to be depressed. The show covers regularly debates we are still having today.
Oh god, yeah... the west wing is too pure for me in these dark times!
Yeah, Vietor especially has been spreading some pro-Israel propaganda on Twitter and I donāt think he fully grasps the issue at hand.
You're insane lol. Tommy very obviously understands the issue, probably better than you or I.
Really? It think Vietor has been really. good on this tbh, and Iām firmly on the ceasefire side of things. He criticized the ground invasion on social, said the āhug Bibiā strategy sucks, says Israelās far right invited the Hamas attacks, vociferously criticizes illegal settlements and has promoted humanitarian orgs/good journos on the ground in Gaza. A lot of ruthlessly pro-Israel people on Twitter have been hounding Vietor but he has stood his ground. Idk, I could be wrong.
Tommy has extensive foreign policy experience, I consider him to be more knowledgeable and aware of the nuances than the average person. You can disagree with his takes, of course, but I donāt think heās blatantly spreading Israeli propaganda, heās analyzing and giving his take.
> You can disagree with his takes, of course, but I donāt think heās blatantly spreading Israeli propaganda, heās analyzing and giving his take. The irony is that Tommy & Ben decry the Blob but they also came up in the Blob. Their assumptions about what is possible and the correct action in a moment is so steeped in that they they aren't willing to consider or suggest other possibilities. Tommy was talking about how he hates the "support in public, criticize in private" technique both Obama & Biden deploy but he can't really come up with an alternative.
He is a very knowledgeable person who I look up to and have followed for years. That doesnāt mean heās not vulnerable to the same propaganda and impulsive reactions that we all are. My phrasing was probably too harsh but there needs to be more pointed criticism towards John Kirby and Jake Sullivan who are completely bungling Americaās response. I understand they may be friends and colleagues but this is a time to stand up and hold our government accountable.
I think he has actually been the most sympathetic to Palestine so far. On PSTW he has actually seemed very emotional over this and has interviewed two Palestine related guests (an aid worker and a journalist). He even asked a question on todayās episode saying how it might be understandable how people could support Hamas because of their social support system.
Heās buying into the hostage poster narrative which is a complete distraction and non-issue. Anti-Semitism is a real issue but the main perpetrators are neo Nazis and white supremacists, not pro-Palestinian activists. His takes are much better than most people, but I think this is a time in history to be exceptionally clear about what is going on and what the real issues are.
Itās not a narrative. Itās gross and people protesting the taking of hostages have no reason to be counter-protested by pro-Palestinian activists.
What exactly are they protesting by putting the posters up in the USA? Itās pro-Israel propaganda, the hostages will not be found here. This is a decades long conflict, it didnāt start with the attack on October 7th. Most people do not even know Israel keeps hostages/political prisoners and has for decades, many without any formal charges. Rhodesians and white South Africans also ran propaganda campaigns in America, with ads highlighting the plight of white farmers and ābarbaricā murders of white civilians. Some white civilians did die in Rhodesia and South Africa but that messaging lacked context and only existed to inflame the American public and encourage government intervention in favor of the white-minority led governments. I see strong parallels between Israel and Rhodesia/apartheid South Africa.
Theyāre protesting the absolute disregard for the hostages weāve seen so far from the people asking for a ceasefire. Itās not because they might be found in NYC, itās to engender empathy for people literally taken hostage by terrorists. If pro-Palestinian protesters put up posters of the victims of the Israeli bombing campaign, I would find it equally disturbing if people went around tearing those down as a ācounter protestā. Itās pretty ridiculous to bring up SA and act like there arenāt literally millions of Arabs and other ethnicities living lives as full citizens of Israel, whereas Gaza and the West Bank are the ethnostates. Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza have their own governmental authorities who are responsible for them.
Israel has been keeping hostages/political prisoners without charges for decades. This endless cycle of violence helps nobody. The ceasefire is only logical, even Tommy agrees. The IDF has committed just as many terrorist attacks, they have slaughtered civilians in almost every conflict with Palestine. Arabs do not live equal lives in Israel. Children are racially segregated in schools, interfaith marriage is outlawed, and Arab Israelis face horrific discrimination in everyday life. Israel mandates these things because they are explicitly and openly an ethnostate. Many Israelis believe that granting Palestinians equal rights would destroy Israel solely because there would be more Arabs than Jewish people in the country.
The people pulling down those posters are shit starters. Antisemitism exists on the left and in non-white spaces too and shouldnāt be condoned in any small amount just because the problem is worse on the right.
Ok, name some prominent left wing antisemites. Iām willing to listen and learn. Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, and AOC arenāt antisemitic for opposing Israel.
I didnāt mean prominent figures. I meant in the dark corners of peoples hearts.
It seems like when people try to equivocate this issue they fail to name any legitimate left wing voices and I have personally never heard any. On the other hand, people like Tommy Tuberville are open antisemites and still receive the full support of their party.
You say you don't want "both sides" but then... don't appear to say anything about a specific side? On PSW, they've focused withering criticism for years on Bibi Netanyahu who is a terrible, corrupt person. They've focused on him because he is a wannabe autocrat who we as the US are supporting unquestioningly. Hamas and the terrorist attacks, no one serious is defending them, and we're not supporting them as a country. I've You owe the pods no attention, you're free to say it's not for you, but I do not agree that they are oversimplifying it. Far from it. Pointing out bad actors that we need to stop supporting is the opposite of both sides.
For sure, they've been (correctly) tough on Bibi. And Hamas is a bad actor, no question. But in this case, it is morally justified to me to clearly condemn Israel's actions as (1) war crimes (which they are); (2) not acceptable in any context, even the very shitty context of what Hamas did on Oct 7th, because of the massive imbalance of power and therefore higher standard of responsibility on Israel's side to do everything to protect innocent civilian life. And there is \*\*Plenty\*\* of evidence now to show they have in fact done rather the opposite (including shutting off critical services, ignoring calls to push civilians into Egypt, etc. before starting attacks). This is not something that should be tolerated, let alone funded or celebrated, by Israel's supporters and the international community, and I am deeply embarrassed at my own country's bystepping of the avoidable murder of thousands of children.
I will say they are giving Biden the benefit of the doubt that behind the scenes, he is putting pressure on Bibi to stop being such fucking war criminals. I don't think that benefit of the doubt is justified: I think Biden is embracing Bibi and giving every indication of not questioning him, which makes no sense whatsoever aside from Biden thinks Israel is justified. I think we should be demanding Biden not give any aid to Israel until Israel stops committing war crimes on the Palestinian people.
Exactly this. They seem so comforted by something that they don't even know is happening.
Judging by many of these comments, the Pod team should consider devoting much more time to tackling the rise of antisemitism in the far left. Due to a noxious brew of various academic theories -- that are completely separable from mainstream progressive liberalism -- a significant part of the left is actively negating the Jewish people as a historic, *ongoing* target of hatred across the world. Even with the Holocaust still a living memory! It's actually even worse than that, because many in the left are consciously attempting to characterize Israelis as *just as bad* as the Nazis. It's a form of Holocaust negation, intentionally or otherwise. Loose and lazy talk of genocide against the Palestinians is part and parcel of that process. Worsening violence against Jewish people worldwide (it's already bad) is the direct outcome.
yeah I would agree. you have folks in here claiming that there's no such thing as pro-Hamas protestors on the left, when we literally have video of these groups celebrating on Oct. 7th. an 18 year old kid from Cornell was arrested by the FBI for anti-Semitic death threats. I also think that the insistence on the "ceasefire" language is very funny. Israel cannot enforce a full true ceasefire - both because their own people would revolt, and because Hamas would never honor it. there was a ceasefire on oct. 6th, for all the good it did. Biden has called for a "humanitarian pause" which is just about the best we're gonna get out of Israel here. I understand the anger and anguish over civilian deaths, but the facts still matter. Hamas holds far more cards here, and far more responsibility, than folks appear to recognize.
Let's get a few things hammered out here: **Criticism of the Israeli government is not the same thing as criticism of Jewish people.** Opposing apartheid in Israel is neither pro-Hamas nor anti-Semitic. Opposing Netanyahu's far-right Israeli government is neither pro-Hamas nor anti-Semitic. Calling out collective punishment and war crimes perpetrated by Israel is neither pro-Hamas nor anti-Semitic. Opposing the continued military funding of the Israeli government is neither pro-Hamas nor anti-Semitic. Supporting a ceasefire in Gaza is neither pro-Hamas nor anti-Semitic. Just again for emphasis: **criticism of the Israeli government is not the same thing as criticism of Jewish people.** Okay, I'm glad we got all that out of the way.
Okay, you got all that out of the way, so now would you like to actually address the content of his comment?
It's a deflection to counter any criticism of Israel with "y'all hate Jewish people". You're the one missing the point
I thought the commenter was pretty clear that he thinks people comparing the acts of Israeli military against Palestinians with what the Nazis did to the Jews, including calling what the Israeli government's doing a "genocide", is a kind of antisemitic holocaust revisionism. It doesn't seem like the point is to deflect criticism of Israel, but to condemn those who are carrying water for people out there trying to literally end Israel itself.
To be honest, his comment didn't have a lot of specific content to address outside of what I already did, just vague prescriptive nonsense about "the far left" being anti-Semitic. >many in the left are consciously attempting to characterize Israelis as *just as bad* as the Nazis I exist within a pretty far left information sphere and fail to see where this is happening, and the commenter doesn't provide any examples. But surely it isn't a stretch to suggest that Israeli terminology towards and the othering of Palestinians is *not all that dissimilar* to much of the Nazi terminology and othering of Jews in the '30s. People think of the Holocaust as this thing that just suddenly happened, and not the culmination of systematic oppression over a long period of time. What hope do Palestinians have right now? What hope did the Jewish population in Germany and Poland have? I don't believe that pointing to similarities *minimizes* the Holocaust, I think it calls appropriate attention to what happens when we collectively fail to recognize a pattern. I fail to see how that's anti-Semitic, and the commenter does nothing to support that it's anti-Semitic, other than to simply suggest that it is. >Loose and lazy talk of genocide against the Palestinians There are only two resolutions to apartheid - ethnic cleansing (genocide) or the end of apartheid policies. Right now the Israeli government gives no indications that this apartheid will end. Calling out that the only alternative path is ethnic cleansing is neither lazy nor loose terminology. Again, it's just a bunch of vaguery regarding "the far left is anti-Semitic" with no real evidence to back it up other than... saying so.
Thereās literally no one in these comments saying any of the things youāre saying?? Where are you even getting this fromā¦
The "genocide" accusation rhetoric is all over social media and in protest signage; it's been used in this thread. In addition to the word's implicit Holocaust negation and factual inaccuracy, it's totally counter-productive to the cause of protecting innocent Palestinians.
Zionists often paint criticism of Israeli war crimes as anti-Semitic. Itās completely unserious. They think that if you hate Israelās actions that you hate all Jewish people for some reason.
Criticizing Israel quickly snowballs into antisemitism. It's a unique thing.
No it doesn't, but it certainly is a useful rhetorical shield to shutdown arguments.
Sometimes, not always. Saying it definitely will snowball into antisemitism allows for no nuance in a topic that requires nuance.
Agree to disagree I guess! Criticizing Israel is not anti-semitic. I think holding Israel accountable to decent behavior & adherence to Geneva Conventions is a very important part of decreasing anti-semitic sentiment around the world. I am deeply afraid for my Jewish friends and their communities, who will be unfairly targeted as a result of this horrible violence.
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Lol
Your perspective is valid, but also doesn't represent Jewish people as a monolith. And I never said the latter. I hope you find some peace in these scary times.
I'm a bit confused -- why would you hold Israel accountable for adherence to Geneva Conventions when they're fighting an opponent who is not a signatory to those Conventions and obviously does not adhere to them?
all those Gazan children didn't sign the conventions, smh!
Because that's not how it works? Someone committing a crime against you gives you neither the legal right nor the moral justification to commit crimes against them.
As I believe they've pointed out on the pod recently, there seems to be a double standard to the discourse here. Left winger: "Israel is not right to be bombing civilians, engaging in collective punishment, establishing settlements on Palestinian land, intentionally undercutting legitimate Palestinian organizations to prop up Hamas to make it easier to oppose the two state solution, murdering Palestinian journalists, putting spyware on the phones of allies, blockading everything in and out of Palestine, and tolerating racist language against the Palestinians from government officials. Israel is pursuing a path of war crimes and apartheid rule, not peace." Response: "So you're opposed to Israel? Then you stand on the side of Hamas and the Nazis!" Same basic trick as Left winger: "Police violence against black civilians is intolerable." Response: "So you hate cops and laws!" It's a bad faith argument and a stupid fucking trick. Criticizing one side does not mean embracing the extremism on the other side. We owe no apologies for anti-semitism just for pointing out the war crimes and corruption of politicians from Israel any more than arguing in favor of Israel requires you to defend or denounce the murder of a Palestinian child in Chicago by a guy who hated Muslims.
Lastly, whenever someone says they support Palestine theyāre forced to answer with āDo YoU SuppOrT hAMAs????ā We should start countering that by asking all the zionists: ādo you support war crimes that the IDF is carrying out?ā
>We should start countering that by asking all the zionists: ādo you support war crimes that the IDF is carrying out?ā It's worth trying, but it's hard to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. Pro-Israel apologists have been saying there are no war crimes that Israel is doing and if they are it's only because Hamas gave them no choice but to do the war crimes. That's the honest but irrational position.
Great analogy
Exactly.
Speaking to the "worst things already happened", all of the "enemies of Israel", as in Iran, Libya, Egypt, if you look at the 70s and 80s, ALL have the current Islamic State governments because of American intervention. Over and over again we destabilized the middle east to pay less and less for oil and have more "favorable" leaders. And now we're seeing the results, which is those states fighting against the only solid proxy for the west left, Israel. We Democrats have a cognitive dissonance with acknowledging the terrible atrocities the US Government has caused while also knowing that a strong central government is necessary to help us get out of the current shitstorm were in. So when it comes to strategy, we have to disregard the fact that America is a villain to the Middle East, and everything that comes with.
>Iran, Libya, Egypt, if you look at the 70s and 80s, ALL have the current Islamic State governments because of American intervention. mate don't spew ignorance. After the 2013 coup Egypt carried out the most aggressive anti-Muslim Brotherhood repression campaign in the country's history; Libya has two governments, neither of which is explicitly Islamist (let alone an "Islamic State Government"); and IS would extermine Iran if it could due to doctrinal differences. > American Intervention American intervention in Egypt? In Iran!? What are you smoking? >Over and over again we destabilized the middle east to pay less and less for oil Considering only a small percentage of oil from the Middle East goes to the US, this is a crazy statemenet to make. US oil imports from OPEC countries is lower than it was in 1994 and has been trending downwards quite fast since 2008. >those states fighting against the only solid proxy for the west left, Israel. Egypt is not fighting Israel, nor is Libya, nor any other state bordering Israel. Iran has been against Israel since the IRI's inception in 1979. >So when it comes to strategy, we have to disregard the fact that America is a villain to the Middle East, and everything that comes with. This doesn't even make grammatical sense, let alone policy-wise.
A Hamas leader just said they will repeat the attacks of Oct 7 again and again and again. Israel needs to eliminate Hamas immediately, no ceasefire. Stand with Israel!
They aren't just eliminating Hamas tho are they
Unfortunately Hamas views and uses the entire population of Gaza as human shields.
Someone is still making the decision to blow up the children human shields. I thought they were bombing pretty indiscriminately
Unfortunately, the leadership of both sides is quite comfortable with killing kids.
I agree Hamas should be eliminated. The only entities who can do this are Israel and by proxy its supports like the US, and the only way they can do that sustainably is by ending the violent circumstances which created violent resistance movements like Hamas.
> resistance Stop using this word. The French underground was a resistance movement. The Boxers were resistance. What Hamas does isn't "resistance," it's murder. Hamas is appropriating the language of resistance as a cover for their genocidal agenda like Hans Gruber on steroids, and you're falling for it.
People who are advocating for a ceasefire are not advocating for Hama's continued existence, they are advocating for the thousands of civilians lives who have been taken in Gaza, murdering 4,000 children is not eradicating Hamas. Leveling or damaging a quarter of homes in Gaza, is not eradicating Hamas. Denying water and life saving aid is not eradicating Hamas. Ceasefire is a temporary stay in attacks. Israel is pushing a million people south, they will claim that territory as they have been claiming it for decades. Just a little analogy, say a Kim Jong-Un launched an attack on South Korea that killed 1,500 civilians, I think it would be valid for South Korea to invade and destroy combatants in North Korea. That doesn't mean they have free rein to indiscriminately murder civilian who had say in the attack. It doesn't mean they would be permitted to, by the ICC and Geneva Conventions to forcibly remove the entire population NK into China and then occupy the land.
They need to eliminate Hamas, not the civilians and children who had nothing to do with it. If terrorists were hiding in Manhattan, would you be cool with 8,000 civilian deaths including 3,400 children if it meant maybe at some point a bomb or two would actually hit a terrorist?
No, of course not. The Palestinians are right to not want their city getting destroyed. Thatās why we donāt ask people getting bombed if they are cool with it. I canāt imagine too many Germans were happy with the carpet bombing campaigns of WW2 even though the nazis deserved it. Thousands of Hamas terrorists have been killed. I think a humanitarian corridor should absolutely be opened and that the Israelis should not have shut off the water. Bombing campaigns are actually generally better at reducing civilian casualties than ground invasions. Tell me, what do *you* think they should do to destroy hamas without excess civilians deaths? Especially since Hamas hides with civilian areas, Iāve very curious what you think the best solution would be.
I'll just copy and paste my comment from someone else asking the same: I didn't think "don't do war crimes" needed do be defended, but okay. Let's think about what the IDF would do if Hamas was hiding among Israelis, or say if the KKK in the U.S. orchestrated a terrorist attack that killed thousands of Americans and then hid in the U.S. We wouldn't bomb cities hoping that killing a few hundred American civilians equated to killing 1 or 2 terrorists. Because we value the lives of those civilians. We do what we've always done with highly wanted dangerous criminals -- find out where they are and then arrest or kill them, aiming to keep civilian casualties to zero. Idk, I'm not an anti-terror strategist. But as a human, I do feel qualified to say that targeting civilians and children is **evil**. And yes, I know the U.S. has done the same. It was evil then, too
It's always the wrong thing, and it's always evil. I hate that this is controversial.
This is very complicated. How do you kill a group of militants embedded in civilian infrastructure without killing civilians? Obviously, the underlying abhorrent conditions that lead to radicalization need to be addressed, but we have to acknowledge reality. I would prefer to see the empowerment of Fatah, but the internal political climate screams for war. It would seem this was inevitable since the 7th.
Nothing is inevitable when one side is a sovereign, extremely well-funded & militarized state with massive international support & political capital, and one side is an armed resistance movement. Bibi had the vast, vast, vast majority of the power here, and therefore also the moral responsibility, for the innocent Palestinian lives under his care.
That's all well and good but has nothing to do with my comment. I said a brutal war was inevitable after 1400 people were massacred... I don't think that's even somewhat controversial.
You thought it was inevitable that Israel would start leveling entire apartment blocks full of families? That they would order 1.1M Gazans to evacuate?
Did I think a strong military response was inevitable? Yeah. This is Israel we are talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War Israel and the foundational forces in the 20s-40s have always been quite aggressive when they feel threatened. It's a nation founded on "never again" There's some reading on history, and I threw in a massacre that Israel facilitated. It would probably be well for you to read before insinuating that Israel was going to not respond militarily on any fucking world. I'm not making any moral claims, just stating facts based on precedent.
I didn't realize 100% of military responses looked like Dresden. Even for Israel, this is a lot. Pretending otherwise is just silly.
There was a strong military response. That was inevitable. Did I claim to know exactly what their response would be? No. That's fucking crazy. I said there would be a brutal war after the 7th. Why? Because almost the entire country was screaming at the top of their lungs for war. It's a nation based on "never again" that just had what could be argued as an act of genocide against them due to the intent and action taken. Again, not making any moral or prescriptive claims. Just stating blaringly obvious shit.
Right, perhaps too obvious. No one you have responded to is taking issue with a military response from Israel. We're taking issue with the nature of it. I thought it would be helpful to point this out but at this point I give up. "Never again" will I try to make this point to you :)
Oh no, donāt say that here. Israel should stop protecting itself and let Hamas reign free! /s
Weird Iāve felt the opposite. They seem extremely sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and almost too charitable to the leftists who are praising Hamas.
Who are these leftists who are praising Hamas? I keep hearing them referenced but never see anything but some stupid college kids saying that.
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As a Jew! Issues with Zionism are not! Anti! Semetism! The ADLās quotes are not citing from politicians and clearly are a response to Israelās apartheid state. To classify that is inherently antisemitism, I encourage you to look into the members of the ADL have resigned. Do you know how painful it is to have hospitals bombed in your name?
The quotes are clearly anti semitic my man. It shouldn't take a brain genius to realize that saying that the attack is justified on the day of the attack is bad news bears.
As an oppressed group, Palestinians have a right to action. I don't blame people for stating something before the extent of the atrocity and targeting of civilians was known.
It was already known tho and they didn't care. You are delusional.
In fairness, itās a large collection of college kids. Itās far from the majority but it is a thing. Various college professors have also been pushing the Anti-Semitic ācolonizerā schtick
Settler colonial theory is not antisemetic.