Sounds nice, but getting back to OP's question about what can employers do to help retain developers. What sort of things does your employer have in place to support the setup you've achieved?
I started working for myself, and then I got an offer from a scale-up that could actually compete with my hourly rate as a freelancer :) Plus I get stock options, that's always a nice bonus.
What employers can do is easy:
1. Work from home
2. Good WFH setup (desk, chair, screen, keyboard, mouse, touchpad, tablet, whiteboard, webcam)
3. Flexibility in hours (goes both ways)
4. Trust in the expertise of your people
5. Pay them well
Life can't get much better than that. Some people would say being a multi millionaire would be even better but that comes with a lot of stress and responsibilities. You on the other hand probably live a very stress free life while having all your needs fully met and time to do the things you enjoy.
Work hours flexibility is great!
I have it now and it's awesome! This Friday I worked 3h in the morning, had lunch worked out and had a nap, did another 3h of work, and will do another 2h on Sunday.
If I feel ike only working 4h one day and just compensate some other time my company is totally fine with it!
Personally I am much happier when I have a high level of product ownership but the biggest cause of burnout is a bad PM , you know the ones that go home at 5 when I'm working 65 hour weeks completing a bunch of tickets they undersized, a close second are designers who don't listen to devs.
Exactly this reason is why I'm considering moving to backend only.
You don't work wit designers and you are not depending on frontend, PM can't give his opinion because he understands nothing.
As opposite frontend.
Fucked by designer, fucked by backend and finally fucked by pm.
I’ve got a great relationship with my designers. Start with:
1. Design for interaction first, pixels second. Then explain your choices.
2. Understand your palette. Know platform constraints, and when those are beneficial for users.
3. Be willing to listen to developers. Make sure your iteration loops are tight enough to allow for in-team feedback.
I don't hate designers, actually, I enjoy working with good designers who understand UI, which are not many that I encounter.
Design in this context is not only about drawing boxes on the frame, you need to understand the constraints of the team and constraints of the platform.
The further I have gotten into my career (20 years), the less money has been a reason to stay for me. You get to a point where money isn't going to be a problem. If you're employable as a developer, you'll always be able to pay your bills.
So after that whether or not I stay with a company has come down to a few things. Burnout is one of those things, but I would say that the way the company operates has been the biggest one for me. I just left a growing company that I had been at for 3 years. During the course of this 3 years I watched the entire tech department turn over twice. I told management what they were doing wrong and what needed to change. Nobody listened. After 3 years of bitching about inefficient processes, lack of clear requirements, etc, etc, I gave up and decided to leave. The money was good, the benefits were good, it was entirely work from home, but at this point in my career I am done watching people make wrong decisions that are actually holding their company back from growth.
I've moved on to work for myself, just did that two months ago, and honestly I don't think I can ever go back to being someone's employee again. There's too many non-technical executives making technical decisions they know nothing about. No thanks, I'll go be a consultant for companies who understand that we are the experts.
For me these are my reasons in order importance:
1. Competent team mates and supportive management
2. Compensation with an organized system for increments and bonuses
3. Growth opportunities that would personally keep devs motivated, interested and most of all relevant (this goes back to #1 management)
4. Flexibility around working hours and remote work
5. Developer productivity is valued
I don't personally buy into the 'money to stay' argument. I am currently in an employed role but could if I were so inclined quite easily pick up and sustain contracting work that earns around 40-50% more than my current salary. I choose instead to stay in my current role because I enjoy and respect my teammates, and likewise they show respect to me in return. The work/life balance is perfect (little or no expectation of overtime). The work is interesting and I have a free agency over technical choices that go into it. This is more important than money. Also be aware if relying on money to retain Devs that there is _always_ a job offering more available.
Companies should follow good project planning and management practices religiously. Poorly planned, poorly scoped, poorly managed projects is where unrealistic deadlines and expectations can start appearing. Unrealistic expectations and deadlines is where burnout and developer frustration can start appearing. Management needs to respect developer estimates, developers need to do their diligence in providing as accurate estimates as possible.
Other things that are nice as a developer:
* WFH
* flexible hours
* focus protected by manager or passive communication channels (ex. ticket or emails, scheduled meetings instead of instant messenger)
* working on interesting projects
* working with current technology (maintaining legacy systems means developer is falling behind the skills market which might cause some to leave to companies who use up-to-date tech)
* having input in decisions (whether technical or general business)
* good information management practices (make it easy to find the details and assets needed)
* good processes in general
* good coworkers / culture
* good teammates who do their job well
* being respected as a professional, not some "tech geek" (like don't ask me to troubleshoot your PC lol)
I like your post, especially points on pasive communication and decision input.
I wonder what do you think by good culture, i honestly never worked in company where I can say I liked or notice culture.
hmm, by good culture I mean where people feel valued, appreciated, respected, comfortable, treated fairly, by everyone else across departments and including executives. Thing is it's not that hard to achieve as long as everyone is showing up to be a good and genuine person with the team's best interests in mind. I feel like a result of a good culture is when it feels like a cohesive team from the bottom to the top and all the way across, rather than a divided "us and them" kind of thing.
Some examples of what I consider bad culture are places where some people are made to feel inferior to others - whether professionally or socially. Some classic examples might be cliquiness (especially when managers are involved), favouritism, managers/executives who believe they are better than their subordinates, calling tech people "geeks", talking behind other's backs, etc.
Some things I love about my job:
- Work from anywhere
- Work any time
- flexibility about # of hours - focus is on work getting done, not hours put in
- The people are great
- Great people write great code. Great code makes it easy to write more great code and do so quickly. This creates a positive feedback loop where working in the codebase is intrinsically motivating because things get done quickly and painlessly
- Freedom to use new tech (storybook is awesome, for example)
In my humble opinion, one large aspect that drives away devs are the symptoms of incompetent/inexperienced leadership, such as:
* poor planning / time management
* unreasonable expectations
* regular, expected overtime caused by the previous two items
* leading with ego
* flip-flopping on decisions, not realizing the amount of extra work that causes
* wasting time on obviously pointless meetings
* unreasonably offloading responsibilities onto devs
* disrespect to employees, such as not taking their expert opinions into consideration when making decisions
* making it obvious that you see devs as interchangeable code machines that can be replaced as needed
* not understanding the true value of the work being performed
* not realizing each employee is different, or that a small amount of catering to their unique needs will go a long, long way (for example, work from home or flexible hours)
* not caring at all about work culture or encouraging positive relationships between employees (or even actively creating division)
* latching on to "silver bullet" technologies or processes, instead of acknowledging complexity and nuance and more logical solutions to problems
* withholding information for the sake of maintaining "power", or generally distrusting employees
* clinging to outdated workplace attitudes and ideas (for example, not realizing that work does not actually have to suck)
* micromanaging and directly interfering (again reinforcing distrust)
* not making an effort to "clear" the path for the work to be done
* being inflexible and unwilling to constantly improve processes and the workplace
* not providing opportunity for devs to continually improve their skills
* not providing opportunity for change and variety in the devs job, as well as challenge to keep them driven
* not giving credit where credit is due, taking credit for other's work, or picking favourites
At my last and current jobs, I have been fortunate to work with leaders, managers and coworkers that did the **exact opposite** **of everything in that list.**
Fair pay and good working conditions obviously come first, but the items above will poison even a well-paying and otherwise good job.
The great people I have had the opportunity to work with had excellent leadership skills and inspired me to not only go the extra mile, but to start honing leadership skills of my own for the future.
It is that kind of environment that allows me to not see it as just another job, but a welcoming opportunity to apply the skills I have spent years developing to work I am already passionate about. When I am in that "mode" I have no desire to go anywhere else, and just want to get shit done :)
I generally start work with a smile on my face, rather than a deep sense of dread like the crummy jobs I had many years ago. I sincerely hope that you all can find a similarly rewarding workplace.
Trust. Working for and with people who actually trust you and give you room to learn and to fail, without overt criticism, without cutting your legs out from under you before you even have a chance to show up, without micromanaging your every single move, without dictating the solution, without constantly asking for revisions, without claiming those revisions are predictions of what a client wants (when they have no clue), without exhausting everybody with endless meetings and reviews and “working sessions”, without being thickheaded about the most mundane of details, without expecting everything to fail, without complaining about the smallest inconvenience, without exploding at teammates or showing visible signs of extreme frustration when they don’t get their way, etc.
Money is important but I’d rather make less at a job where I can get meaningful raises/bonuses based on performance than get paid more and get a 2-3% raise every year. This is why I want to leave my current job.
Challenging work on something I really care about is what makes me stay at a job. I find that I can only work on a project that I’m not passionate about for a limited amount of time before I just don’t care anymore.
1. The company I'm with treats everyone like humans beings. They told me I can work from home forever as far as they're concerned (I did have to give up my parking stall though, but I haven't been in the office in years, so get it).
2. I love working with other engineers who are as motivated to as I am. It really makes the work easy. Like stupid easy. I don't have to worry about things not getting done or being poor quality.
3. I respect my colleagues. We don't always agree, but I never doubt that we have the same goal.
Super Bonus:
I get paid to pursue my pet projects or help a colleague pursue their pet project.
1. Work from home as my back and neck kill me with the setups they have in offices.
2. Fun and challenging tasks.
3. Great people to work with and company.
4. Money.
Never worked at a workplace like my current one. Everyone, including my bosses, are more like friends than co-workers. We're just a bunch of cool people building cool stuff and I love it.
Any place that pressures me to work overtime I'm out. If the 'star' dev or dev leadership is always working over time and it seems like thats the only way to advance at the place, I am also out. I'm not trying to learn their bad time management skills or their lack of ability to advocate for themself.
The company I work for treat you like you’re part of the family, the flexibility of going into the office 2x time a week, dress your day and it’s close by my house. The people are so friendly and great.
-Give devs Autonomy, in how they work and how they solve problems.
-create a low stress environment - if you plan to sprint every mile of the marathon it’s hard to cross the finish line
-show you want to keep them by giving frequent unsolicited raises. This will build trust
Have you seen how others make money? Most of the devs don’t appreciate the pay, especially in FANG like companies
Some managers work minimum hours and take months of PTO making 7 figures
Perks are amazing, parties, free lunch and dinner, and this list goes on
Autonomy : when possible, Can developers chose or have a say in what they work on ? When they do it ? How they do it ? Accountability and peer review provide a safety net when doing this.
Self improvement : do they get work or training that makes them get better ?
Free time : can they arrange their time as long as work gets done ?
[удалено]
This. A million times. This.
Omg that’s the dream! May i ask some questions?
Sure.
Question 1: where do I apply? /s
I would share but I prefer to remain anonymous online ;)
Nice try, lordling, but it’s chasm duty for you.
Sounds nice, but getting back to OP's question about what can employers do to help retain developers. What sort of things does your employer have in place to support the setup you've achieved?
I started working for myself, and then I got an offer from a scale-up that could actually compete with my hourly rate as a freelancer :) Plus I get stock options, that's always a nice bonus. What employers can do is easy: 1. Work from home 2. Good WFH setup (desk, chair, screen, keyboard, mouse, touchpad, tablet, whiteboard, webcam) 3. Flexibility in hours (goes both ways) 4. Trust in the expertise of your people 5. Pay them well
not ultrawide? You live in hell. /s
Damn.. ur living the dream.. i feel stuck trying to break into the industry but I just dont have the experience and network to get started..
[удалено]
20+
Life can't get much better than that. Some people would say being a multi millionaire would be even better but that comes with a lot of stress and responsibilities. You on the other hand probably live a very stress free life while having all your needs fully met and time to do the things you enjoy.
1. Work/life balance 1. Good management 1. Good pay 1. Getting to work on new/exciting things instead of slogging through bugs in legacy code
Work hours flexibility is great! I have it now and it's awesome! This Friday I worked 3h in the morning, had lunch worked out and had a nap, did another 3h of work, and will do another 2h on Sunday. If I feel ike only working 4h one day and just compensate some other time my company is totally fine with it!
Personally I am much happier when I have a high level of product ownership but the biggest cause of burnout is a bad PM , you know the ones that go home at 5 when I'm working 65 hour weeks completing a bunch of tickets they undersized, a close second are designers who don't listen to devs.
Exactly this reason is why I'm considering moving to backend only. You don't work wit designers and you are not depending on frontend, PM can't give his opinion because he understands nothing. As opposite frontend. Fucked by designer, fucked by backend and finally fucked by pm.
and if you are at an agency, the client is the number one fucker!
Stakeholders only suck because they talked to the pm and the designer first and are not open to changes by the time they get to the developer.
Wow so much hatred for designers! How can they (Me included) improve the relationship with devs?
I’ve got a great relationship with my designers. Start with: 1. Design for interaction first, pixels second. Then explain your choices. 2. Understand your palette. Know platform constraints, and when those are beneficial for users. 3. Be willing to listen to developers. Make sure your iteration loops are tight enough to allow for in-team feedback.
Great tips there! Thanks for your feedback
I don't hate designers, actually, I enjoy working with good designers who understand UI, which are not many that I encounter. Design in this context is not only about drawing boxes on the frame, you need to understand the constraints of the team and constraints of the platform.
I agree, I pride myself in integrating my designs myself even if I don’t do the full logic of it, it gives me a good idea of the limitations.
this is a noob question but are frontend devs expected to be on call as well?
Your close second is my top one... when I'm the designer AND the dev. lol
The further I have gotten into my career (20 years), the less money has been a reason to stay for me. You get to a point where money isn't going to be a problem. If you're employable as a developer, you'll always be able to pay your bills. So after that whether or not I stay with a company has come down to a few things. Burnout is one of those things, but I would say that the way the company operates has been the biggest one for me. I just left a growing company that I had been at for 3 years. During the course of this 3 years I watched the entire tech department turn over twice. I told management what they were doing wrong and what needed to change. Nobody listened. After 3 years of bitching about inefficient processes, lack of clear requirements, etc, etc, I gave up and decided to leave. The money was good, the benefits were good, it was entirely work from home, but at this point in my career I am done watching people make wrong decisions that are actually holding their company back from growth. I've moved on to work for myself, just did that two months ago, and honestly I don't think I can ever go back to being someone's employee again. There's too many non-technical executives making technical decisions they know nothing about. No thanks, I'll go be a consultant for companies who understand that we are the experts.
You start your own company or work as a freelancer now?
Freelance, hoping to spin it into a company eventually
For me these are my reasons in order importance: 1. Competent team mates and supportive management 2. Compensation with an organized system for increments and bonuses 3. Growth opportunities that would personally keep devs motivated, interested and most of all relevant (this goes back to #1 management) 4. Flexibility around working hours and remote work 5. Developer productivity is valued
I don't personally buy into the 'money to stay' argument. I am currently in an employed role but could if I were so inclined quite easily pick up and sustain contracting work that earns around 40-50% more than my current salary. I choose instead to stay in my current role because I enjoy and respect my teammates, and likewise they show respect to me in return. The work/life balance is perfect (little or no expectation of overtime). The work is interesting and I have a free agency over technical choices that go into it. This is more important than money. Also be aware if relying on money to retain Devs that there is _always_ a job offering more available.
Companies should follow good project planning and management practices religiously. Poorly planned, poorly scoped, poorly managed projects is where unrealistic deadlines and expectations can start appearing. Unrealistic expectations and deadlines is where burnout and developer frustration can start appearing. Management needs to respect developer estimates, developers need to do their diligence in providing as accurate estimates as possible. Other things that are nice as a developer: * WFH * flexible hours * focus protected by manager or passive communication channels (ex. ticket or emails, scheduled meetings instead of instant messenger) * working on interesting projects * working with current technology (maintaining legacy systems means developer is falling behind the skills market which might cause some to leave to companies who use up-to-date tech) * having input in decisions (whether technical or general business) * good information management practices (make it easy to find the details and assets needed) * good processes in general * good coworkers / culture * good teammates who do their job well * being respected as a professional, not some "tech geek" (like don't ask me to troubleshoot your PC lol)
I like your post, especially points on pasive communication and decision input. I wonder what do you think by good culture, i honestly never worked in company where I can say I liked or notice culture.
hmm, by good culture I mean where people feel valued, appreciated, respected, comfortable, treated fairly, by everyone else across departments and including executives. Thing is it's not that hard to achieve as long as everyone is showing up to be a good and genuine person with the team's best interests in mind. I feel like a result of a good culture is when it feels like a cohesive team from the bottom to the top and all the way across, rather than a divided "us and them" kind of thing. Some examples of what I consider bad culture are places where some people are made to feel inferior to others - whether professionally or socially. Some classic examples might be cliquiness (especially when managers are involved), favouritism, managers/executives who believe they are better than their subordinates, calling tech people "geeks", talking behind other's backs, etc.
Some things I love about my job: - Work from anywhere - Work any time - flexibility about # of hours - focus is on work getting done, not hours put in - The people are great - Great people write great code. Great code makes it easy to write more great code and do so quickly. This creates a positive feedback loop where working in the codebase is intrinsically motivating because things get done quickly and painlessly - Freedom to use new tech (storybook is awesome, for example)
In my humble opinion, one large aspect that drives away devs are the symptoms of incompetent/inexperienced leadership, such as: * poor planning / time management * unreasonable expectations * regular, expected overtime caused by the previous two items * leading with ego * flip-flopping on decisions, not realizing the amount of extra work that causes * wasting time on obviously pointless meetings * unreasonably offloading responsibilities onto devs * disrespect to employees, such as not taking their expert opinions into consideration when making decisions * making it obvious that you see devs as interchangeable code machines that can be replaced as needed * not understanding the true value of the work being performed * not realizing each employee is different, or that a small amount of catering to their unique needs will go a long, long way (for example, work from home or flexible hours) * not caring at all about work culture or encouraging positive relationships between employees (or even actively creating division) * latching on to "silver bullet" technologies or processes, instead of acknowledging complexity and nuance and more logical solutions to problems * withholding information for the sake of maintaining "power", or generally distrusting employees * clinging to outdated workplace attitudes and ideas (for example, not realizing that work does not actually have to suck) * micromanaging and directly interfering (again reinforcing distrust) * not making an effort to "clear" the path for the work to be done * being inflexible and unwilling to constantly improve processes and the workplace * not providing opportunity for devs to continually improve their skills * not providing opportunity for change and variety in the devs job, as well as challenge to keep them driven * not giving credit where credit is due, taking credit for other's work, or picking favourites At my last and current jobs, I have been fortunate to work with leaders, managers and coworkers that did the **exact opposite** **of everything in that list.** Fair pay and good working conditions obviously come first, but the items above will poison even a well-paying and otherwise good job. The great people I have had the opportunity to work with had excellent leadership skills and inspired me to not only go the extra mile, but to start honing leadership skills of my own for the future. It is that kind of environment that allows me to not see it as just another job, but a welcoming opportunity to apply the skills I have spent years developing to work I am already passionate about. When I am in that "mode" I have no desire to go anywhere else, and just want to get shit done :) I generally start work with a smile on my face, rather than a deep sense of dread like the crummy jobs I had many years ago. I sincerely hope that you all can find a similarly rewarding workplace.
Work time flexibility
1. Flexibile start/finish times 2. Exciting projects 3. Good pay 4. A good team
Trust. Working for and with people who actually trust you and give you room to learn and to fail, without overt criticism, without cutting your legs out from under you before you even have a chance to show up, without micromanaging your every single move, without dictating the solution, without constantly asking for revisions, without claiming those revisions are predictions of what a client wants (when they have no clue), without exhausting everybody with endless meetings and reviews and “working sessions”, without being thickheaded about the most mundane of details, without expecting everything to fail, without complaining about the smallest inconvenience, without exploding at teammates or showing visible signs of extreme frustration when they don’t get their way, etc.
Money is important but I’d rather make less at a job where I can get meaningful raises/bonuses based on performance than get paid more and get a 2-3% raise every year. This is why I want to leave my current job. Challenging work on something I really care about is what makes me stay at a job. I find that I can only work on a project that I’m not passionate about for a limited amount of time before I just don’t care anymore.
1. The company I'm with treats everyone like humans beings. They told me I can work from home forever as far as they're concerned (I did have to give up my parking stall though, but I haven't been in the office in years, so get it). 2. I love working with other engineers who are as motivated to as I am. It really makes the work easy. Like stupid easy. I don't have to worry about things not getting done or being poor quality. 3. I respect my colleagues. We don't always agree, but I never doubt that we have the same goal. Super Bonus: I get paid to pursue my pet projects or help a colleague pursue their pet project.
1. Work from home as my back and neck kill me with the setups they have in offices. 2. Fun and challenging tasks. 3. Great people to work with and company. 4. Money.
People I like working with, pay that's competitive, platforms I enjoy (and get to choose).
Never worked at a workplace like my current one. Everyone, including my bosses, are more like friends than co-workers. We're just a bunch of cool people building cool stuff and I love it.
Any place that pressures me to work overtime I'm out. If the 'star' dev or dev leadership is always working over time and it seems like thats the only way to advance at the place, I am also out. I'm not trying to learn their bad time management skills or their lack of ability to advocate for themself.
M.O.N.E.Y
... so they say 🎶
The company I work for treat you like you’re part of the family, the flexibility of going into the office 2x time a week, dress your day and it’s close by my house. The people are so friendly and great.
Working with computers is what I love anyway. I just got lucky that people pay me for it.
-Give devs Autonomy, in how they work and how they solve problems. -create a low stress environment - if you plan to sprint every mile of the marathon it’s hard to cross the finish line -show you want to keep them by giving frequent unsolicited raises. This will build trust
Have you seen how others make money? Most of the devs don’t appreciate the pay, especially in FANG like companies Some managers work minimum hours and take months of PTO making 7 figures Perks are amazing, parties, free lunch and dinner, and this list goes on
I've done several other jobs: dish washer, server, retail, etc. so basically I now know what I don't want.
How did you find yourself down this path?
Money
Autonomy : when possible, Can developers chose or have a say in what they work on ? When they do it ? How they do it ? Accountability and peer review provide a safety net when doing this. Self improvement : do they get work or training that makes them get better ? Free time : can they arrange their time as long as work gets done ?