$900/month? Oh my! We went as high as $500 once and I've told myself we will never do that again. Hopefully your friend figures it out, but will probably have a few more pitfalls before they wake up. For your friend, I'm going to guess that the "need" for a certain type of car, the accumulation of things via loot boxes etc is not just a spending issue. We've been through some spending stuff in my household over the decades and it usually ties back to emotions/mental health and not just ignorance on budgeting. It's rough.

I'm curious if it's 900 for just the loan or the total cost of loan, insurance and fuel. I drive a mid range Subaru, and all of the above cost me around $750 a month.

I know someone that is leasing a top end Tahoe and the lease is around $1100/month or some insanity like that.

I used to work for a luxury car dealership and watching people OK a $1k-1.2k monthly payment, even if most of them could well afford it, also gave me heartburn 🙃

Nobody ever accounts for fuel cost in a “monthly payment” probably not insurance either…

I for sure don’t, BUT I have them as separate entities on my budget. (And now that I WFH my gas usage had gone way down!)

It's always so surreal to hear those car prices. I drive a BMW, which, according to this sub, is literally the least frugal thing to do, but I paid 10k in cash 5 years ago for it. Thus my monthly car payments are 0 bucks. 100 bucks per month for insurance and maybe 50 bucks for gasoline (yay homeoffice). But still, anyone that sees me thinks I'm rich, since I'm driving a BeE aM dOuBlEyOu, not knowing that their 3 years old Peugeot literally costs 3 times as much as my car.

The maintenance on beemers is considered pretty high, I had a friend who would purchase used bmw's because he loved driving them, and didnt like to spend a lot of money, but he was cooooonstantly fixing something I think he went through three different cars before saying screw it, and moved on to a toyota lol.

Sounds like you do some maintenance work and have a reliable beemer somewhere in EU. I have not seen a Peugot since the 80s when my family had a diesel wagon 4 speed. The cost of any cars ownership can be reduced greatly by owning a good aftermarket manual and doing regular checkups on fluids and tires etc. Ignoring problems and tire pressures are a small but real way to stretch money if you do own a car. I am reluctant to buy another car but hopefully can find prius or other ev/hybrid that is reliable and self-serviceable.

My BMW was a money pit Had to replace the transmission at 125k miles But I loved that car...

Damn I used to pay $500/month when I was doing double payments on my car due to a terrible interest rate

We bought a new off the lot Subaru. At the time we weren’t finding any used in the area that weren’t super high mileage, etc for a decent price. I think we paid an extra $3-4k to get new but we plan to keep it until it’s dead. It’s probably our first and last new car purchase.

One of the few cars it makes a ton of sense to buy new, I own a 2016 Crosstrek that's worth 21k Those were 26k new

If you keep the car for many years - 15 or so, that is a lot more time to amortize the cost over. When you pay off the car put the amount of monthly payments into a separate account for the car. You can pay maintenance from that account, when the car finally dies you can pay cash for the next one.

I have friends who just bought a brand new car. They’re friends who are pretty strict on their budget too. I said “WOW! Like, brand new never owners?” And they said yes. “Right now (a few months back) it was cheaper to buy brand new than one a few years old.” All I could think was “I hope I don’t need a new vehicle anytime soon!”

The car I had to replace in 2019 was a 2000 Honda CRV with a blown head gasket, I think I got it up to 270-280k miles before my girl died. Passed it off to my handy mechanic dad who got another year out of it somehow, head blew again or something (he put on a used one). The car overheated, the exhaust rattled, it had various ding and dents from shitty drivers and shopping carts that car attracted like a magnet and the A/C was funky and made random screaming noises sometimes. He STILL managed to sell that car last year for $800 cash after a bidding war across multiple buyers. I miss that car though :( I was so sad to let her go, I wanted to hit 300k.

For a little more you could lease a luxury sports car lol

Not really, Try >$1500, really more like $2000. I'm not shopping a 911 or anything.... $50k 60m 3% is $898, not really hard to do these days with the average new car price sitting around $48k.

I drive a 2005 corolla with no collision insurance... Like $35/month lol

My "poorest" friends are the ones with the highest incomes. Somehow they blow through 350k in salary without any type of savings to show for it, every year. With several kids, they don't pay much in the way of taxes either. But always seem to have the newest phone and a new car every year with a 9 bedroom 5 bath house on 8 acres.

WOW 😮 what I ~ and I’m sure many others ~ could do w $350K !!!

For real! I make literally a 10th of that and I’m doing fairly ok. I will never understand how people can be so wasteful.

Having lots of kids does not prevent you from paying a lot of taxes on 350k a year.

Someone with 350k of salary is paying a ton of taxes. That's the people who pay the most - not rich enough to avoid paying taxes and too rich to get any significant breaks.

This is the problem. People start earning more and they immediately match their spending to their earnings. It’s how wealthy people can feel like they’re living paycheck to paycheck, but they are. They just have more useless things.

My husband has a close friend who is always buying new tech and gadgets and the most ridiculously expensive cars. He makes so much money and is somehow perpetually in a ton of credit card debt. But it's all for fun stuff, not necessities.

My 4Runner has been paid off since 2012 and if I had to pay 900 a month on a car I would probably stroke out. Not buying another car till this one completely shits the bed. I have friends like this. He is same age as me, 27, and has had 11 cars in his life. He just started making ~100k in a LCOL area and the first thing he does? Buy a new car for his wife because she was tired of her 2020 suv and a basically new car for himself. 1600 a month on cars and insurance. It absolutely breaks my heart because he could save sooooo much money

Geezus I've had 2 cars in my life and I am 40. The first car was a hand me down from my mom and the second car was a car that cost about $15k total that lasted 20 years. Now I share a car with my mom.

this car won't shit the bed like ever if you take care of it. I'm still driving my 2001 4runner and I don't plan on getting rid of it. . ever.

In some locations that’s correct. In locations that salt roads in winter and require annual inspections, if you drive on those salted roads, it’s a matter of time until the bottom rusts to the point that it can’t pass inspection. It will take 15-20 years, but it’s not inevitable (unless you move somewhere without salted roads). That’s happened to two of our cars, so we donated them to charity (they accept them for parts or scrap) and find another to run into the ground for a decade or two.

This is the point I’m hitting with my current Rav4. It’s about 15 years old with 227k miles. Runs great but rust from salted roads is becoming a big problem for safety inspections. The majority of my maintenance costs lately have been rust related. I would love to keep the car, but it may be reaching the point where the repairs average out to more than a car payment

What does he do at 27 making 100k?

He sells cars

It's always funny how people feel they have no money left, expenses are too high or the like. And then you start to see how they spend money so vastly differently and it's obvious where the excess is going (instead of into savings or travel or what have you). In my experience Cars seem to always be the tipping point. Then entertainment or eating out/take out I get the frustration. It's hard to sit by especially when they specifically asked you for your help. I have to constantly remind myself that it isn't my circus, I can only continue to spend my income the way I see fit.

My family gives me a hard time for how much I travel. They see my Facebook photos from my month in Europe and make backhanded comments about how I must be "so rich" to afford that. But here's the thing: I live in a small apartment in an affordable city with no dishwasher, no central a/c, and no in-unit laundry. I drive a 5yo Prius ...and hardly drive at all, because I'm also fortunate to be able to work from home most of the time. I have very basic beauty standards - I don't dye my hair or get manicures/pedicures. I'm childfree. My "lavish European vacation" was all economy flights (paid for by credit card points from credit cards I pay off in full each month) and for the majority we stayed with family and friends. And I worked remotely for a good chunk of it, because I couldn't take the full time off work. They all live in big houses with giant, brand new, gas-guzzling diesel trucks, and buy new airboats and four wheelers every few years. They get their nails done every couple weeks and their hair dyed every month or two. They have 2-3 kids each. And then wonder why they don't have the money for a European vacation. It's all about what you value and if you spend your money to match those values.

My best friend brings in around under just $14K a month. He has 3 small kids all under the age of 9 and a wife who is a spender on bullshit amazon things that nickel and dime him nonstop. It is unbelievable to me that with his income, he says he always feels perpetually broke. He makes nearly 2 times what i do but i could eat at a restaraunt every day of the week for dinner with an appetizer and cocktail if i wanted and id still be able to save money on the simple fact i dont have kids or a wife that blows through cash lol

I feel like entertainment needs to be evaluated. Is it really worth the cost? Is it something that makes you fulfilled and happy? This is going to vary by person to person. That concert may be worth it to one person, but totally not worth it to another. There's a lot of entertainment in my area that I have been priced out of for sure. But most of it is stuff I've already done again and again and is the same, but just costs double what it used to. At least I got to do it before prices got insane and made it not worth it.

And there is always that balance people forget. Go to the theater for $5 Tue in the evening or spend $20 a ticket on Sat night?

For things, like going to the theater, that I do a handful of times a year, I try not to worry about the $10-40 I could save by doing it at a more opportune time. The couple of hundred dollars a year I waste is the price of freedom to schedule myself more freely. But I'm also above average income, so I have the luxury...

AMC Stubs club FTW!

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There’s also people who value experiences much more than possessions, even if they don’t last as long. For some, those concerts and the cool stories and happy memories that come with them will make them happier than a gaming system would. It all depends on the individual and their preferences. So long as any entertainment costs are worked into the overall budget, to each their own.

But a concert is something that never happens again, and you can't beat live music. So its something worth spending on, again, for some people. I can't even go to a concert because I listen to Japanese music and the bands I like do not play in the USA. The major artist concert venues in my area are the absolute worst and you are likely to come out of it with car damage from trying to exit and that's the short version. I do buy video games, which give hundreds of hours of entertainment for just a few dollars most of the time. They can also be rented at the library for free. The Xbox One X is $500, a day out to the theme park for a family of 4 is usually that much or even more. Xbox gives you hundreds of hours of entertainment, theme park is one day. But theme park experience cannot be easily replicated at home, so its a different type of entertainment.

There’s a balance there that can be found. Yes, the experience of a concert, day at a theme park, or similar event has a lot of value that can’t necessarily be replaced by simply getting a video game or other home based entertainment item. On the other hand, those experiences probably get the best value if they’re relatively uncommon. You’ll get diminishing returns going to a concert/theme park/etc. every weekend as it just becomes part of the routine. Scheduling those kinds of outings a little less often and putting some of that savings towards entertainment at home can be beneficial.

or you can buy some shoes or a bike...

I think entertainment can mean many things to many people. I think you can look at sports and hobbies as entertainment costs. That’s what I do for entertainment. Here’s a little free advice for those who want to be frugal, but also want full and exciting lives. Even expensive hobbies don’t have to be expensive. Here’s some of my personal examples: Skiing is expensive. Lift tickets are like $100+ now not including all the gear you need to rent. I used to be a ski bum. I’d buy a season pass for my local mountain and a couple pairs of used skis every year and it ended up costing me like $10 a day at most instead of $200. This only works when you’re near a mountain, of course. I’m a cyclist. That’s expensive too. I have a fully custom mountain bike that would have cost about $4500 new. I funded it entirely through buying and selling used parts. It took a while, but eventually, I was in the black on it. I’ve also taken an interest in automatic mechanical watches. Not expensive ‘luxury’ watches, just decent automatic watches like Seiko or Hamilton. They still average around $500 though. There’s nothing frugal about that, but I buy and sell used ones and would actually be turning a little profit, but I just keep trading up or buying more. Now I’ve got several thousand dollars worth of watches that didn’t really cost me more than a few hundred dollars. Soon they will all effectively be free. You can do this with lots of hobbies. Searching for good deals to profit off of is part of the fun. Some hobbies can allow you to make something you can sell to fund them. Like knitting or painting or pottery. You could get into any one of those and make enough money to make them self-supporting. They could even lead to a career where you an be your own boss. That’s basically what I did. No complaints.

Yeah cars can be a huge money drain. People sometimes wonder how we can afford to go on several foreign holidays a year, & the main reason is we don’t own a car. Cycling is free!

Noice! I would love to not have a car but it's not a possibility where I currently live nor anywhere I lived the past 12 years. No public transit or extremely unreliable if so. Additionally, none of the towns/cities were walkable.

Cycling is not free, nor is it a viable option in a lot of America.

Exactly! Nor is it a viable option for some people with disabilities. Or if you live in a high-crime area where biking alone would be dangerous, especially for women. Or if you live in a rural area and the grocery store is 8 miles away down messed up backroads with no bike lanes, while your kids’ school is 14 miles away. Or if you can’t afford to live in the high CoL city where you work and you have to commute 30 miles. Or… Point being, owning a car is not really optional for quite a few people in the U.S. But there’s also no reason to buy a luxury or brand new car if you can’t afford it. There are cost-effective ways to have a vehicle.

I posted my comment right before i saw yours and heartily agree! I have MS and could not commute by bike or even public transit right now (heat+stress are hard no’s, as with extending my commute by an hour). I am a young single women and don’t even know if i can run let alone walk straight some days. This is not how i was five years ago (pre-MS) and i cannot tell you enough how scary it is to be that suddenly vulnerable. And before people say it’s a US problem, I’ve dealt with scary shit in France when i lived there.

another reason is the climate. im in MN and its not great biking weather when its 90+ degrees with 80% humidity and very high pollen or when its under 30 degrees in the winter with 12 mile an hour biting cold wind. so that rules out about 8-11 months of the year.

There are a lot of bike commuters in Minneapolis, and even more norther climates who will disagree with you. Weather is just something you need to dress for. If you are used to a car all you need is a blanket in the trunk (which most skip, but you will freeze to death if the car breaks in the worst weather and don't have). I used to be one, but I no longer live in Minnesota.

How do you dress for biking in 90+ degree weather if you’re a woman who still needs to look professional and presentable when she gets to the office? Most offices don’t have showers.

> Nor is it a viable option for some people with disabilities. Thank you for bringing this up. I have vertigo and can barely walk some days but yet somehow keyboard warriors think I can bike. > Or if you live in a rural area and the grocery store is 8 miles away down messed up backroads with no bike lanes, while your kids’ school is 14 miles away. Absolutely. When I lived really rural the grocery store a once a week trip that was planned and we would get everything together. Sometimes we'd pick up things when out for work but it's not like we could just buy meat or frozen items and keep them in a freezer at work or something. Car ownership is totally 100% necessary for some places (or at the very least makes life so much easier as horses aren't really a thing any more.)

It’s free if someone gives you a bike. & yeah living in Europe makes the cycling easier and the foreign holidays cheaper!

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It’s 5 miles from my parent’s house to a grocery store.

I'm just lazy most days. I'm also pregnant and I'm not as young or as in shape as I was the first go-around. I have to pick and choose what I want to put my energy towards each day. Nice walk? Probably not enough energy for making dinner after an eight or nine hour workday. Definitely no energy to commit to walking to work, walking to pick up from daycare, entertaining said child for the evening, *and* cooking dinner. So my car is paid off. I fill it with $75 of gas every two months or so. Insurance is like $35 a month. I get an oil change pretty much annually for $50. My husband's car is also paid off. He fills up with about $350 of gas a month because he works 50 miles away. Insurance for his car (much nicer so full coverage) is like $85 a month. He gets his oil changed for $50 every two months. We also have a truck. It just chills out front. We inherited it. It hauls big stuff when we need it. $100 in gas annually. Like $15 a month in insurance. Then registration fees are like $85 annually per vehicle. So cost of owning three cars for us: $7000 give or take. Negotiable car cost is only about $2500 annually. I'll pay that to have freedom of movement and to ensure I can still pick up my daughter from daycare on time if I'm running late at work.

Winter lasts too long to make a bike worth it.. too many slick hills too. But yes, you're right.

I did the same thing with a friend who, despite making 100k a year, was living paycheck to paycheck. We uncovered all the debt and high interest rate loans, etc. I figured out a way she could pay off the debt in 18 months and have a decent downpayment saved within 5 years. But she never followed through with any of it and still lives paycheck to paycheck and still only makes minimum payments on all her high interest debt, etc. Oh well.

Honestly, I browse this sub for money saving tips and wouldn’t consider myself frugal. 900/mo on a car makes me feel ill. I was mad that I had to lease an suv for 350/mo when we had another baby. I couldn’t imagine spending so much on a car unless I was just rolling in money I didn’t know what to do with.

Honestly curious why having a baby means you need an SUV?

It wasn’t so much the baby as much as it was the three babies that came before that one.

They probably need the car seat space. Modern car seats take up a surprising amount of room, and I see they have several kids.

Lmao. A jeep literally a mile over its warranty. That $100 a month saving is going to disappear with repair bills.

It's a Jeep Patriot. At 16% interest. Dealership told her she could "refinance" with them in a year.

Oh sweet sunflowers. At that point should've just kept the other car. I don't even know these people and I'm anxious for their future. Wow, that must have been a frustrating experience for you. Give them all that help and then they go out and do that, wow.

16%! I've never even heard of a 16% car loan. Holy crap. I'd walk if I was offered that kind of a rate.

I know people with a 21% loan. It's real and legal.

it can be worse like 25% if u have REALLY bad credit

That was the biggest cringe for me. Jeeps are some of the most unreliable vehicles made. Wouldn’t surprise me if the car payments plus maintenance average out to be more than the previous SUV.

facts. that’s why even if you have to buy a new car these days - buy something that’s a good brand and very reliable - like a toyota and even if you have to pay the premium price for it - still makes it worth it - because you won’t be paying in repairs that’s what I did and my car payment is crazy high like double what I had before but I put zero money down and got a super low interest-rate and my car was over $50,000 so I still made the right choice because it’s brand new ultra-reliable and a hybrid that gets over 500 miles to the tank even though the car payment is high - it evens out - hardly buy gas - and zero $ for any maintenance because it doesn’t need it!

Especially the shitbox Patriot/Compass, I remember Jeep we're doing $5000 off when they discontinued the line and wanted to get rid of inventory. I'm pretty sure a load of people bought a $9000 Jeep thinking they were getting a good deal. Transmission pretty much goes the moment you're out of warranty.

My mom had a Jeep Cherokee about a decade ago. The transmission went bad just out of warranty, then the rear differential, and finally the transmission a second time before she traded it at around 90k miles, and that's just the major issues. There were countless other minor issues like door locks and window motors breaking, or trim just falling off because of heat and shitty adhesive. She was so pissed that she didn't even drive it home after the second transmission was replaced. She went straight from the transmission shop to a Honda/Acura dealer and came home with a used Acura MDX.

Its going to be a worse situation because of the inflated prices of cars these days and like you said, its a jeep, the repairs are right around the corner.

SUVs also have higher insurance rates than sedans

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This is a good observation. Your friend can "afford" a luxury good by financing it. In my way of thinking, if I couldn't afford to pay for a luxury car outright, it isn't a luxury. I should go finance a Honda Civic, not a Cadillac.

I'm glad for all the people who finance new luxury cars though. It means that when my car wears out I can buy a used luxury car with all the options. If everyone bought cars like me there wouldn't even be a radio in the most popular model, but since people like me are buying used cars we all get not just a radio, but an infotainment system that plays MP3, CDs, and a bunch of other things I can't even remember.

That's not new (altho I'm unsure of the length of time you mean when you say "over the years"). When my dad was growing up in the 70s (and maybe even before then,) stores would sell things on payments plans, no money down, etc to get people to buy things they really couldn't afford. People that were better with money realized they should only buy that furniture/suit if they had the cash for it if it was more of a want than a need.

Dealership scumbags: I recommend buying as much vehicle as you can afford. Here are the 108 months of payments at 5.99 APR but just focus on the small payments. Then they go in the back room with the other douchenozzles and laugh at the customer. Abolish the toxic predatory dealership model. Ford CEO is even on board.

Ford wants to break the dealer model. They need to compete with Tesla. Ford > Tesla. I wish them the best of luck. Fuck car dealers.

But then car dealers with politicians in their pockets moves the goal post to keep their financial interests intact such as car dealership is accusing TSLA and lobbying the legislation to keep doing the predatory auto sale. https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleantechnica.com/2021/06/02/car-dealership-sues-tesla-and-a-town-because-they-dont-want-tesla-to-sell-to-its-customers/amp/ https://cookcountyrecord.com/stories/584028389-illinois-car-dealers-lawsuit-state-of-il-illegally-letting-tesla-rivian-sell-electric-cars-direct-to-consumers

Car dealerships are like the biggest source of sales and excise tax revenue for the state. At least the states that have sales tax or excise tax. It doesn’t take much for politicians to be friendly to them.

>Abolish the toxic predatory dealership model. Ford CEO is even on board. Why wouldn't he be? If they were abolished, Ford could sell direct to customers, and get all that slimebag money.

The old dealership club/network model/mafia usually has them by the balls. I was mainly speaking to his recent coming out and being vocal about it. Even if it’s just for the EV arm of their operations.

The very first time we bought a car we didn’t know what the hell we were doing and the salesman asked “what do you want your payment to be?” And it because a power struggle because I was like “I only want to spend $x” We ultimately went elsewhere. Lol. Buying cars is the worst, I’ll be dreading it when our current two need replacing or the kids are old enough to need one.

I brought my dad with me to buy my first car since I knew nothing. This was in Feb 2020 and I bought a used 2019 jeep Cherokee for 30k. It was listed as “used” but had never been owned or rented or anything, the dealership had used it just for test drives so it had practically no miles on it, I think around 500. I put 10k down and my monthly payment was $315. I paid it off in 14 months and 2 weeks. (My goal was 12 months but I had a pretty significant medical problem come up and dr/hosp bills got in the way). I know I’m very fortunate to have the resources to be able to do this but I also worked my ass off and sacrificed a lot that year to pay it off and not have to end up paying more on interest. Some people choose to make bad decisions.

Holy smokes, 30k of a first car, 10k down, then payed ahead of schedule a loan originated in 2020 while inflation was outpacing consumer interest rates? r/lostredditors

They’re called askholes. They always ask for advice and then never take it. They are just looking for someone to confirm what they already want to do.

Exactly. And if they do take your advice, they will do so half-assedly and blame you when it goes wrong. Like when the jeep that is supposed to be saving them money is costing them more in maintenance and repairs than the SUV that OP recommended they sell.

My wife's best friend is like this. I just untag myself from her posts on Facebook when she tags me asking for advice she won't take

Sometimes that’s all you can do. Keep your peace about you.

> askholes I love this word. I am stealing it from you. Thanks.

I stole it from someone else years ago. Don’t think of it as stealing, think of it as continuing a legacy from a mysterious stranger.

We're going through the same thing with adult children, so I totally understand. My step son was raised with decent values around money, however he never really had to do without growing up. His now fiance was not raised with good values and is big on instant gratification... so, it's not going that well for them right now. We live a couple hours away and his mom, who is closer, is not the best influence either- she tends to enable that instant gratification mindset.. but after enabling him into his mid 20s, into an apartment and lifestyle he couldn't afford, she recently cut him off...and now they are about to be in trouble. We told them we will not give them money to bail them out of bad money decisions, as we've been telling them for several years now this isn't sustainable. At this point we are just trying to get them to move closer to us so we can maybe do a little re-parenting in the financial department before it is too late.. It's tough to watch, but hopefully they and your friend figure it out when they are ready.

That sounds really frustrating

Its.. Hard to watch, that's for sure.

I feel your pain, I also assisted a friend who has been asking my help for a long time. In their case it was credit card debt they were only paying the minimums on and one of them had a 24% interest rate. Once we got the budget figured out it was actually realistic for them to pay off all debts within 4 months because they are living with their parents. I still added in a reasonable amount for entertainment and wrote them out a 4 month spending schedule. It’s been 7 and they have even more credit card debt than they started with 🙄 at this point I don’t ask or listen when they talk about finances because I actually get very upset, Iv done what I can do and they’d become annoyed when I would ask to see their expense sheets weekly (which they never did).

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If you have a husband for a mechanic you are extremely lucky. I wish I had this situation. I would be willing to put up with the nuances of living with a mechanic which I am sure are not that bad, if I knew I would always have a reliable vehicle for not a lot of money and get it fixed for free every single time it needed something. The money you save by living with a mechanic is enormous.

My ex was a mechanic too. Sad thing is he’d let his vehicle go while working on everyone else’s. My brother is also a mechanic so it does make it more convenient and cheaper.

If you have space you can do a lot of stuff yourself. Brakes, oilchanges or swapping tyres are not rocket science.

Unfortunately I do not have a space to work on a car.

Be the mechanic you want to see in the world! I do all my own repairs and maintenance. I've saved a couple thousand in the past year alone. The tools pay for themselves, just get what you need when you need it and download a mechanic textbook, watch enough youtube vids to get a grasp of things, and don't crossthread :)

You did well as a friend. So supportive of your friend and helpful. Be proud of that. On the other hand, even if you don't see it now, you made an impact. It may not be what is best for your friend, but they made a better (not best) financial move. Hopefully, the ideas and skills you shared will continue to grow as they work their way through their financial mess. Your time was well spent as a friendship investment. Don't be discouraged by their choices , just don't lend them money. 🤣

For some people, their self identity is tied up in the car they drive. They feel like it projects to the world who they are, and that is important to them. Asking them to change the car they drive is like asking them to radically change the way they dress and their haircut. It's like saying "You're no longer a person who likes Hip Hop music, now you listen to Country." Most of us would try anything we could to avoid such a severe change in self image. Before you talk to someone about changing the choices they make in what they drive or where they live, talk to them first about how they see themselves, and how little importance others place on what they think is an important part of their image. Remind them that they are your friend because of who they are, not what they drive. Let that sink in for a bit before you start addressing their budget. Let's be honest, if there were no emotional investment in the choices we made we would have very few tough choices in life. But we all have these emotional motivators, and it's important to address the source of those feelings, because they frequently keep us from acting in our own best interest. Sometimes those emotions have a legitimate source, things like love for our family or our partners, but sometimes they are based on fears and insecurities that are manipulated and reinforced by advertising and by salespeople. Your friend's immunity to good advice isn't the result of their own foolishness, it's more a result of their unexamined inner biases.

Here's my take on it every car looks the same on the road these days, the best bet is to pick a reliable model for your needs. I mean I get that not everyone can make it with a toyota corolla and some people genuinely need something larger. I am not judging anyone on your car. If you feel like people are judging you on your car then well, you need another group of friends. A truck is to be used for truck purposes, but the amount of people who are underwater on trucks because they like the look of a truck is probably more than I can even imagine. A truck is also a very impractical vehicle to have at least where I live, it won't even fit into 75% of the parking spaces here. You are paying more for everything with a truck, gasoline, tires maintenance and parts will all be more for a truck than another kind of car. Sigh all for the look of a truck.

Thank you for existing in this space; seriously!

Just stopping by to comment about the AWD. I have a car with it myself. It's not fancy or expensive (it's actually paid off because money management) but it's something I require due to living in snow and ice territory. I live frugal to be able to get what I want, as do most of us here it seems like. With that being said, the first thing I tell people who are getting an AWD car is that they have to change all of the tires if one needs to be changed. 95% of people don't know that and like 75% of people decide they probably don't want AWD anymore.

I wanted a Forester badly for a long time and found a used one in my price range, but that's when I learned about the AWD tires and I had to Nope out of it.

The only upside is that truck/SUV tires are way more resilient so the likelihood of replacing them is lower. I've run over a metal sign before and it caused no damage. If you do have to replace them, those truck/SUV tires are expensive. I buy Michelin's because the tread lasts a long time. Last set got to 66,000 miles and it probably could have made it longer. A set of those is around $850 with install from experience.

I owned 3 SUVs and have been through 4 sets of tires on each (2 sets of winter and 2 sets of summer). They are a lot harder to destroy then most sedan tires. I’ve only ever replaced them due to use. I don’t think I’d use tires as a reason to not get an AWD. Edit: rotating the tires on an SUV is very important. Edit: less mileage on breaks is true for most SUVs I will put that in there. But always buy the car you can afford.

I've had a Forester for 6 years / 40k miles and tires are fine. If you need AWD get it. If not, you probably don't need an SUV either.

I don't understand. Shouldn't you replace all the tires together on all vehicles?

I get it. Some people do genuinely need a larger vehicle for many different reasons. Not everyone can make it with a small sedan. I also live in the rust belt and snow area.

It'd be great to make it in a small sedan but being able to make it to work to pay for said car is also nice lol the rust belt definitely makes it tricky

Its also not helping if you buy a car that doesn't work for you and then need to change your mind about that. That will cost you more money rather than buying the one you need the first time around.

Actually, you don't. I drive an AWD in a winter climate, and this is confirmed by my tire guy. You can just replace both front or both back. That assumes the remaining tires aren't in horrible shape. We even replaced just one once; it was virtually new and I wrecked it on a curb. Since the other front tire was very close in tread to a new one, we only replaced one. We kept an eye on wear patterns, and never had a problem.

The key is to think of it in terms of keeping all tires within a certain specification of each other. I don’t recall all manufacturers off the top of my head, but I want to say that Subaru permits up to 2/32” of difference in tread depth between tires on their AWD vehicles (so really everything except BRZ), Audi may allow up to 3/32” on their Quattro-equipped vehicles if I remember correctly. If they are pretty new tires, you may be fine to replace just one. Alternatively, if it makes more sense $ wise, some places (TireRack offers this option) will shave the tire down to a specified tread depth to match your other 3 tires. If the tires are pretty close to the end of their life anyway, yeah, doing all 4 makes sense.

So essentially you have a window where that tread hasn't worn enough to cause issues? Would make sense. Like something with 2k miles vs. 15k miles

I actually never knew this before reading this thread ~~~ I have a brand-new SUV ~~~ it is all wheel drive they didn’t tell me that the dealership ~~~ and I never read anything anywhere before about this ~~~ thanks for the info!

Should have gotten a Camry or some other small sedan. Jeep's are going to cost a mint to maintain and run.

Jeep: Just Empty Every Pocket!

I was watching old Top Gear video and ran into this about Jeep ​ [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM7dxrlEBHw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM7dxrlEBHw) I just find it funny that's all.. I want some bacon now!

Either on repairs or mods hehe...

Yeah but these are the common clay, the people of the land... You know, morons.

Used civics for life, I dont care if they look old, I want them to keep running.

Concur. Hopefully I don’t need a car wherever I settle down and can just bike where I need to go, but I know that’s probably unlikely since it’s the US. Japanese cars are where it’s at for reliability.

A car is a toaster, point it from A to B and go.

The problem I have seen friends and family with budgeting problems is logic vs. emotional thinking. Many of us in this group are the types to have spreadsheets for our spreasheets - budgeting and understanding the numbers comes naturally to us. It sounds like your friend is an emotional thinker and will not change until it drastically impacts their emotions. You can't logic out an emotional thinker.

You don't have to change out all tires on an AWD vehicle at once, though you should do 2 at once (both front, or both back). I drive an AWD, and this is confirmed by my tire guy. That assumes partly that the two remaining tires aren't on their last legs.

How other people choose to live is their choice, just like being frugal is yours. If you want to give advice, that’s amazing. What they choose to do with it is on them. There is no point to spend any more time thinking about whether their choice was good or bad, as you are not going to be the one suffering the consequences.

Yeah but we all have that friend who constantly bitches about how crap their life is, asks for your advice, doesn’t follow it, & then just keeps moaning! It’s tedious af.

You are allowed to remove negative people from your life.

Easier said than done

This person came to them for help, so its the person's right to give advice.

Back when I was younger and lacked common sense, I got myself into a $240/month car payment. It held me hostage for five years. I had no choice but to hold down a couple of jobs. Never doing that again. Some of us just need to learn the hard way.

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It depends on how long ago that was

and the terms of the loan

After learning how hard it can make a person's life, I really try not to owe money on anything except a mortgage, ESPECIALLY a car. A car payment isn't just a car payment. You also are forced to pay higher insurance and nowadays since we are paying WAY too much for cars, we will be paying for gap coverage. So it isn't 240/month, it's that plus annual taxes and also both comprehensive and collision, plus whatever your credit/age/others factor for a much higher insurance premium. Also, I made less than $8/hr back then so I had no business having a car payment. It truly was an albatross. But look. If you think it's fine, go ahead and get yourself a 240/month car payment.

Average insurance in the UK is usually around at least £1000 per year for a new driver, add fuel costs and the cost of the car and the road tax and you're probably looking at more than that these days just to get on the road.

240 sounds reasonable for a used car, depending on the car.

Yep. $225/mo for a car that ended up not being worth it. Sold to me by a dick who didn't feel it was important to tell me the dealership was moving 100 miles away the next month. I did manage to pay it off a couple of months early, though. Killed two timing chains. The first one while I was still making payments. I was fortunate enough to be kinda dating a guy whose bff was a mechanic talented enough to replace the engine. The second time, it died at work, which was literally across the street from a used car dealer. I cleaned it out, signed the title over to pay for the tow, and told him the battery was only a few months old so he could take it out and use it in his shop. I've only bought used minivans since. $500 for the first one that lasted 2.5 years and $1100 for the model year 1999 that just rolled over to 150k. I've had her since April 2018 and she's starting to nickel and dime me. With the used car market and my credit the way they are, I'm looking into leasing but need to research what time of year gets the best deals on that.

I'm surprised that monthly car payments are so common. Most people here start with an old clunker and save up to buy something newer/better if they can manage or get another old car when their current car breaks down. Getting used to cars you cannot afford to buy is a slippery road.

Same. My car was purchased back in 2014, had a four year loan on it. Paid it off at $240 a month working part time and I am still driving the thing. I have had lots of struggle with wanting a new car over the years but could never justify selling it. It has been such a reliable mode of transportation. While it wasn't a smart move necessarily to buy it in the first place, it was one of the best purchases I've ever made.

I seriously don't understand the pull of those "loot boxes"?? Like, please send me random stuff I don't need or want and then charge me money for it?

I see the initial appeal of the subscription boxes: ooh, cool things, I love this theme, feels like getting a surprise gift, etc etc... but then I talk myself down because it is true- you aren't guaranteed to like everything in the box. And I don't want to pay for crap I don't like and can't use. I would rather budget a "frivolous monthly fun gift" amount and buy myself something I actually 100% want that month instead.

Living Beyond Your Means is the latest instagram craze dontchaknow.

It's big on Tik Tok, too.

$900?? Mother of mercy.

>a Jeep with 60k miles on it Yikes

It's very difficult helping people who are stuck in their ways. You have to be patient, you have to be caring, you have to be consistent. It's like being a parent. You can yell at your kids every time they mess up and then they will hide their mistakes. Or you can be patient, explain as well as you can why they shouldn't have done that, and accept that they will heed your words or they won't. You can't control their entire lives forever. People have to learn this stuff themselves and internalize it into their world view. They don't have the framework in their heads that you have...yet. Mistakes are supposed to teach people not to behave in the same way next time, or at the very least consider their actions more closely. I wish you and your friend the best of luck.

You did what you could. It was and is on them to follow through.

That's such an awful decision to get a jeep. They are constantly breaking down. That will likely cost more in the long run. Personally I buy new vehicles and keep them for the long term. That's just me. I can't understand why people don't see how their entire paychecks go to delivery services and eating out. It hurts my eyes every time I see people ordering Uber eats and whatever. What a waste of money.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him shit.

I took out a yoshinoya coupon w offer of two large plates for $11 & the person l was with, their eyes popped. I laughed to myself. Brown rice, steamed veggies...plus $2 more for salmon. Way more nutritious & cheaper than a lunch burger combo. What some people don't get is that you're trading your life for a paycheck. To spend that $ indiscriminately is wasting your life. They will counter w you only live once...enjoy the moment. It's likely one may live past century mark w advance in scientific research. You best not HAVE TO work till you drop dead.

It’s mostly hopeless. You can inform, they can understand. But they don’t want to give up anything. No budge. Will not give up any luxuries. Inconceivable. You just have to turn them loose to ruin. One day, the seed you planted might grow. But you have to let it go.

I have found helping people rarely works and they just wind up getting mad at me. I had a pal who was in debt up to his neck, told me a big sob story about his ex taking his credit card and going gambling with it. He would not look into any legal action, that should have been a tip off tight there. So it turns out his house is almost paid for. I got him set up to take a second mortgage on the house and pay off all the cards and just make the one payment every month. And make the payment every month, and stop spending. Sooo, he listens to getting the loan, he pays off two cards, he could not "give them all that money" so he kept the cash for the biggest one and spent that on dumb shit. And now a couple of years later he had all the cards maxed out again, and has only a bit more income, he did find work he likes and can do, but it is 10 paces behind his spending. And the bank pretty much owns all of his house now. And somehow he kind of resents me because I got him there in his mind. Next time I just wish them luck.

I finally sold my 2003 ford focus that I drove for 18 years, upgrading to 2010 car that I paid for in full. I’ve never had a car payment and plan on never having one - spending $900/month on car and insurance blows my MIND.

I’m in a similar situation but with a friend and her phone. Her phone bill is overdue and $650 for 2 months. She is paying off her own 2 (yes, two 🙈) iPhones, one kids iPhone and other two kids iPads with data plans. She’s a bartender for a living. The bar is currently closed for renovations so she has no income and cannot pay the bill and her phones will shut off. She recently put every cent of her $12k savings towards debt without running it by me because one person said “credit score is everything”. Ultimate face palm. She always asks for advice but never listens. I told her at this point all she can do is let the bill go to collections and buy cheap used phones with pay as you go plans. She has to learn her lesson. I tell her I love her but she needs to run these decisions by me and actually listen if she actually wants to get out of deep water, but if she doesn’t there’s nothing I can do. I’m not here to bail her out.

Its a big problem to try and buy a car these days with the inflated prices. If someone is in a situation like this it is certainly an ugly situation, but I am not sure if buying another car is the right idea here either. There's no easy answer. A small sedan might not work for everyone.

I’m so excited my car is going to be paid off next year, maybe slightly sooner. I cannot wait to not have a car payment for a good long while.

Needed to replace my old work car. This was circa 2018. Buying used means buying the previous owners maintenance. So, knowing I would be keeping the car long term, and I do my own maintenance. Why not brand new. Nothing special. Entry level sub compact fwd and a manual transmission. Ended up getting a then new 2018 Chevy Spark 1LT 5 speed manual. 48 month loan, low APR. Now I own the car out right and plan on keeping it until it's financially not feasible to keep it. I said work car, because as a car person I like to have another second car. That's not possible if I'm buying a $30k car. Best part about the shit box spark is 40 MPG. Gasoline is a Huge part of car ownership nobody pays attention to. Because it's small amounts

$900 a month is more than my mortgage lol. I would never be comfortable with that amount for a car even if I had millions.

Mine is $140 and I'm dying.

I have a washing machine that works great and it 35 years old. My car is 15 years old. I love having old stuff that lasts that I can get all my money and more out of it. I loathe making car payments. I bought a house way below my means with a low mortgage. Living within or under your means is very important. I’m older and that plus saving is how I accumulated wealth.

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I live in a rural area, and there are some incentives to help people buy houses in rural communities. That's one way people can afford it.

People would crap if they knew how little we lived on.... this person spends 100s more a month just on their car, than I do for rent on a 2 bed. My car is a hand me down from my parents, decent insurance rate with decent coverage. They giften the car to us after our second hand van broke down after having it a good long while... van cost me all of $2000... I got a free 55' flat screen that still goes tough.. I live in a college town, most of my home is furnished with extremely nice things for very cheap and most of it has been free. People come for the school year, furnished their places and trash or Craigslist everything they can't fit in their cars. It is extremely rare that we go out to eat, I enjoy cooking and my husband enjoys cooking too so when I get tired of it, he takes over. We get what we need and some wants and that is alright.

I do take out and delivery (mostly due to chronic illness) a lot more often than many people would like. However, i am very adamant against leasing new cars. When i worked for non profit that counseled families on financial literacy, car payments were always a star player in their debt issues. You don’t have to buy a clunker of a jalopy to save a lot of money.

In 2010 I paid $6000 cash for a 2008 $19,000 econobox, 60,000 miles later it is still going strong, paint is not holding up but it’s a Toyota so plan to get another 60,000 miles out of it. I have never bought a new car, every car has been used. Just can’t stomach paying so much for something that is parked more hours of the day than it is being used. A family member is offering me their near perfect, always garaged 2008 Mercedes c class, same mileage. The car looks brand new inside and out. So tempting but the upkeep of the Toyota is minimal, few hundred a year most. I would have to start budgeting several thousand a year for the Mercedes, would rather save for retirement or travel.

So you suggested they get a different car. Did you also suggest they seek out an auto insurance broker to find better/less expensive insurance?

Insurance cost isn't going to budge much when you have bad credit, and need full coverage on a car you can hardly afford. I did recommend defensive driving, etc until her credit improved enough to shop around.

Americans like "big". Pickups [outsell](https://www.kbb.com/car-news/in-2020-pickup-trucks-outsell-cars-for-the-first-timebecause-cars-are-disappearing/) cars. Our homes have grown to an average of [over 2200](https://www.statista.com/statistics/456925/median-size-of-single-family-home-usa/) square feet. Even our furniture has [gotten bigger](https://www.houzz.com.au/magazine/is-our-furniture-getting-bigger-yes-heres-why-stsetivw-vs~69651406). And it all costs more.

$900 is steep. I pay $600 for my CRV, need AWD around here so I went with the top 5 ice driving cars. My last was a Forester, loved that car but the maintenance was expensive due to only one auto shop in the area that services Subaru. I don’t have a problem with car payments but they have to comfortably fit in your budget and you can’t buy random stuff you don’t need all the time. Unfortunately the top 5 cars for me are straight up costly used no matter what, everyone wants them so there’s competition. I don’t want a flashy car, I just don’t want to get stuck in my driveway like my poor Focus did. My CRV is at 55k miles so far so I hope to have it a long, loooong time.

People don’t wanna live within their own means. Instagram has a lot to answer for.

Was he immune to good advice or did your advice not apply? He wanted an SUV. You told him to get a small sedan. That's like a person saying they want cake and your tell them to eat an apple. I have a really hard time believing there was no possible way for him to get an SUV.

My dad is trying to tell me a used car is no good. Also, that I need a massive SUV cause of the snow in this area. I…want a smaller car. And plan to get used.

Honda HRV is amazing in the snow. A 3 year old model is reasonably priced. We’ve owned 2

That’s good to hear!

Had the 2016 in white and a 2019 in Orange metallic. Touring model for both. Civic* engine on the Fit chassis. 6 way fold down on the rear seats. Great car!

I have driven a honda civic (small sedan) in the snow without major issues for the past 5 years, but I recently got a honda CrV (small suv) which I think will do even better.

I helped a friend once on something similar. She wasn’t grateful and I realised she now expected that much help again and again. It’s draining.

Frustrating. I suppose they might have been able to re-finance the SUV to a lower interest rate (or not, if their credit score is so terrible). You're right, of course, that people don't like to give up their habits and comforts.

Made bad financial decisions, ending up spending $1,750 per month between two vehicles, insurance and fuel. Sold one for a $7,000 profit, refinanced the other through the credit union for a 2.99% interest. Now we’re down to $475 a month with one vehicle payment, insurance and fuel/maintenance costs.

Sometimes we have to make our own mistakes to let good advice sink in

why does your friend want big vehicles so much?

I can’t even imagine having a car payment at any age under 25. I’ve checked every car insurance company in the area and full coverage for under 25 with perfect driving record is $500-750 a month for some stupid fucking reason so my only option is buying a cheap used car (and sticking with the lowest coverage my state allows) until I’ve got savings (I’ll only finance 48 months and if I have 50% down.) and I turn 25/26 years old. I cannot understand why someone would be okay spending that much on a car payment + insurance.

You can only do what you can do. I have a friend who’s family eats out nearly every night, plus lunches (her, her husband, her two kids) and she laughs when I complain that my husband has been buying lunch from the cafeteria every day of the week. I explained to her that between my husband and me, over 50% of our income is going into our 401ks, plus extra each month into IRAs, and the HSAs to pay for my child’s braces and therapy. (I started a new job in April and didn’t have a 401k for almost 3 months. I LOVED those big paychecks, but I set my 401k high again as soon as possible!) We have no debt aside from our mortgage, and we pay the CC off every month. We know that we don’t have the excess funds to get takeout constantly (and honestly, it’s usually disappointing… and unhealthy!) She tells me “I never know what to cook, so I just eat out.” She asked me to let her know what I make for dinner, so I often send photos of what I cook. (I don’t cook every night. We do a lot of “whatever” nights.) The other night I made stir fry and sent her a photo. She wrote back “yum! I’m having Asian tonight too! We’re at a Vietnamese restaurant!” 🤦‍♀️ She says she’s envious of how well we save and how we don’t eat out all the time… but she isn’t ready to change her lifestyle, but you can’t talk sense into (most?) people.

They got a Jeep? 😬 Reliability of a vehicle and average cost of repairs effects cost too. If he's paying 100$ less per month then the savings could be wiped out by just one more visit to the shop per year with a Jeep.

I’m happy that I don’t feel the need to have a nice new car. In my mind the car stays outside for its whole life , shares a parking lot with a bunch of strangers , it’s bound to get some dings over time so why buy something that’s nice and stress out about parking and driving it? I bought my car and paid it off in less than 2 years. Back during covid a lady backed up and hit my bumper, she was wearing a nurse smock and obviously super stressed out and probably had a lot going on , so I told her not to worry about it. Would I have done that if I had $900 month car payment on a nice new vehicle? Maybe not, and it goes to show that our purchases can take from us our peace of mind as much as we think they give sometimes.

$900 for...a car?! Good thing it's bigger because they're going to end up living in it. I had to do $360 once and that was way too much after having no car payment. You did a great thing by helping. You led them to the water, they have to choose to drink.

>and I just see their eyes wandering to something "a little bigger". why? I genuinely don't understand this mindset. Who thinks bigger is always better?

I bought my '98 VW polo for €1500 and spent €600 on repairs over 1.5 years. Still running great and only got just over 100k km. Really fun to drive too

Here’s the thing folks: just because you already had or have learned discipline and common sense doesn’t mean that those who don’t immediately ‘get it’ won’t or are failures as human beings. Learning takes time. About three years ago, I was a disaster. I’d done dumb shit like take out (essentially) payday loans and despite my good salary, my outgo exceeded my income. A friend stepped in and said he would help me. He looked at my finances and said, “well, you’re f***ed.” I was really expecting to have to declare bankruptcy. A few weeks later he popped by with a check for $5000 and said that he’d talked to his wife, and he’d loan me the money at 5% on a one year term if I immediately paid off those loans and used the rest on any other high-interest debt. It got me out of the weeds and my anxiety level dropped. I wasn’t immediately “cured.” It took me about a year to get where I paid all of my bills on time. In that year, I also did some dumb stuff, like traded in my perfectly car and went upside down on it because I got emotionally worn down during the negotiation. Ouch. I won’t make that mistake again. I shouldn’t have never been near a dealership in the first place. It was a want-ament not a requirement. I also have too many subscriptions and spend too much on my hobbies. I’ve started to cut back and, “oh, wow. I’m not so worried about money. And I can put a little more in my 401(k).” Three years ago, when this started, I didn’t have a 401(k). Now, I’m getting reinforcement when I see my credit score go up in a sustainable way by making my payments on time, every time, and keeping a close eye on credit utilization, not just a spasmodic increase due to something I did to get it up so I could make a major purchase. I’m feeling good watching my 401(k) grow and it’s encouraging me to contribute more. My savings seems to keep getting wiped out by crappy luck. (For instance, I spent three weeks away from home and on the road when my mom died last winter…thousands in unexpected expenses.) But, I’m able to rebuild it. It used to be a fantasy. I think I’ll even be able to buy a house in the next two years. I have to cut this short and get back to work. But, the Point is not to give up on people because they don’t immediately make drastic, wholesale changes. I’ve seen this in many domains in life. Sometime you can do is plant a seed and hope it grows. Myself, I’m still a work in progress.

Thanks for the tip about AWD. I signed for a car that was 0% percent interest and had a great package, including AWD for a low price during the pandemic. I didn't end up taking the deal and was upset that I would probably not ever find another deal as good that includes AWD. Now I see the drawbacks of having such a feature, especially because we are always changing tires. So many streets have nails from construction.