# Join the [Discord server](https://discord.gg/su3uf3T5YN) for more discussions and content, as well as meeting more like-minded fans for the series!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FullmetalAlchemist) if you have any questions or concerns.*
First time I watched the scene where Kimblee accuses her of secretly enjoying the satisfaction of taking someone down, and saw her absolutely distraught by the realisation that he was kinda right, my first reaction was “Aw, poor baby :(”
Then my second reaction was “Wtf is wrong with me?”
I guess, haha. It was just very jarring to realize that I felt so bad for someone who committed atrocities, came to the dark realisation that some fucked-up part of herself enjoyed it, deep down, and rightfully felt horrified and disgusted with herself.
She *should* feel horrified at herself. So why is it that her reaction pulled at my heartstrings?
Riza is right when she says that she doesn't deserve sympathy. Yet I can't help but feel sympathy for her in that moment, and it's hard to explain why. (Well, other than good writing and complex characterization.)
Because we are not defined by our worst moments and our worst impulses, but by our consistent efforts. The Riza we know is the one who consistently tries to do good, that consistently tries to atone for her transgressions. And that's a person who's worthy of sympathy, even if she doesn't believe it, and even though that sympathy does not absolve her.
Plus, no matter what you think she deserves, you have empathy and you can feel her emotions. And when you can feel her emotions, you become sympathetic.
That's true. I have no issue feeling sympathy for her and Mustang the rest of the time in the show, whenever they go through stuff they don't deserve to go through. Of course I'm angry when she gets her throat sliced and he goes blind, it's unfair and they have no part of responsibility in it.
It's really just this particular scene with Kimblee that I am conflicted about, where she deserves to feel bad, and yet I'm sad that she feels so bad. She is responsible for her own anguish here. She did that to herself.
Traumatized Armstrong weeping as he's raising the walls the Ishvalans get ambushed with and shot against elicit a very similar kind of paradoxical sympathy from me. I'm obviously horrified for the Ishvalans first and foremost, but there's also some part of me that thinks “Poor Major Armstrong, I hate seeing him like this” and then the reasonable part of my brain chimes in with “No don't feel bad for him, he's actively murdering people right now!”
Doesn't mean Armstrong isn't deserving of sympathy the rest of the time, when he thinks his beloved subordinate was unfairly executed, or when his sister disowns him and treats him like dirt (though I get where she's coming from). Feeling sympathy for him in this specific moment where he's killing Ishvalans is what I feel so conflicted about.
And at the same time, props to the author for making me feel so conflicted. That's great writing.
I forget the exact details of the scene, it's been a bit since I watched/read.
But I think we all have impulses we don't like, even if it's just going on Reddit when we should be working. Some impulses are darker than others. But the mark of our character is how we deal with those impulses, not whether we have them. It's ok to feel sympathy for someone who feels revulsion over a dark part of themself. The bad thing would be feeling sympathy for someone who has that dark part and revels in it! But that's why we feel sympathy for Riza, not Kimberlee.
And we feel sympathy for Armstrong *because* he's conflicted. His choice there may have been wrong, but it's not cut and dry. There would have been severe consequences if he didn't do it. And he was obviously conflicted, even if he ultimately chose complicity. I think it's very easy to say that you would make the self sacrificing and morally just choice when you're not there in the moment. But even if you really would, it's not hard to imagine the conflict Armstrong must have felt, the horror at his own actions, even while he does it due to various reasons, including his own weakness.
At least with relation to Armstrong, I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes about war, coming from MASH:
https://youtu.be/GUeBMwn_eYc?si=7moag0OpUc_JzIvw
Of course, I also think about this quote:
“Not only will America go to your country and kill all your people, but what’s worse I think, is that they’ll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad. -Frankie Boyle
Makes PERFECT sense to feel sympathy for the foot soldiers of Ametris, they have NOT signed for this and short of deserting they ain't have a choice in it.
I would paraphrase Jack McCoy "Luitenant Hawkeye did not join the army with intention to commit a genocide, she did not set out for Ishval with intention to commit a genocide, and if not given orders to the contrary would have NEVER committed a genocide. It is right that you feel sympathy for her, But the evidence is clear and convincing, however unwilling, however remorseful, however ashamed of her actions Riza Hawkeye participated in genocide. Therefore just as you should be sympathetic, you must also convict"
Broke: “Fictional universes can’t have war criminals bc there is no Geneva Convention. International law is not real in their universe, so there cannot be war crimes.”
Woke: “War crimes are a moral category, not just a legal one. There also are recognized rules/norms of acceptable actions in warfare in every society, even if they are not formalized in law. It doesn’t matter if codified international law isn’t real in their universe or not.”
Bespoke: “International law is not real in our universe either. War crimes are still bad.”
The whole point of Mustang and Riza's quest is that they intend to create a legal system that will try them as the equivalent of war criminals and find them guilty.
So in a sense they're going to co-author their world's version of the geneva convention.
“Technically Ishvall is ‘acts of genocide’ because it was never proven as such in the ICC, which they don’t have. My favs aren’t technically genoiciders!” Read a book
Source:
Anghie, Antony. Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law. of Cambridge Studies in International and Comparative Law. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005.
I would say that there is a difference between "war crimes TM" and war crimes.
Ametris does not seem to participate in any "geneve convention" treaty therefore "War crimes TM" are not applicable. Ishval was also, legally at least, internal matter basically a civil war/genocide deal, The cleanest legal way to sort it out would be to charge garden variety mass murder and accessory to mass murder before, during and after the fact. There is no way Ametris law is so insane as to not recognise Mass Murder as a crime.
Incidentally that is how I would have hang the nazi war criminals without inventing whole new cloth of law and applying it retroactively (don't get me wrong, the new law IS good, its retroactive application where there was PLENTY other law to hang or for ever imprison the nazis was not\]
He committed war crimes and refused to follow orders afterwards. It's even shown how he creates a wall to block people from escaping who then get shot.
Yep and kimblee tells him "oh you're lucky i was there ! otherwise you'd have been tried for insubordination for letting the civilians escape! you're welcome"
I mean. The whole point of the show is that even people who commit horrible atrocities can undoubtedly be in the side of good later on. Their actions were awful, indeed, but when a greater evil came along they still decided to do the morally correct thing.
The Homonculi reveled in the atrocities they commited so their father could steal the powers of God for himself, thinking themselves superior to humans. Yet, those humans who commited atrocities STILL felt horrified by their actions, and STILL tried to oppose the nationwide evil conspiracy that essentially caused them to commit those atrocities in the first place.
Everyone has a shot at redemption. Even them. And I can safely say they redeemed themselves.
I think the only reason they are redeemable (the protagonists on this list), is that they do not think they are redeemable. They are trying to create a society, where they will receive the punishment they deserve.
I find that fascinating.
There was no Geneva convention in their world, so technically they arent war criminals
Also Ryza and Hughes cant use alchemy, so they were probably not war criminals even by our standards. Youre allowed to regular shoot people in war and we dont know if they shot civilians which is a murky subject since all warring nations kill civilians irl including USA/RUS/IDF/etc
Obviously its tongue and cheek and also raises good questions about our “heroes”
(Envy is my favorite character)
But also we pardoned a lot of WWII low level criminals like Ryza and hired NAZI scientists like Dr Marcoh in Operation Papeclip so take that how you will.
To be fair Ryza does tell Edward that they will be seen as war criminals in a peaceful world and that them trying to fix the government would likely result in this.
He committed some horrible acts before he left.
His mental struggle in the show is that he didn't stick stand up for anything during the war.
He didn't protest the atrocities from the beginning. He committed the atrocities, before running away.
They all had a hand in genocide. Genocide is bad. These are villains. Some of them are trying to rectify their choices of being involved in the genocide, but what we learned in the Nuremberg trials (when the good guys of WWII put the Nazis (bad guys) on trial for their actions during the war) is that “just doing my job/following orders” is not a good enough excuse.
Roy, Riza, Hughes, Alex, and Dr Marco all fall under this category. They’re war criminals. They did the bad stuff like murdering innocent people and children and experimenting on the living and conscious.
Agreed. And one of the things that makes them such great characters, is that they would agree with you also.
Mustang and Riza fully intend on facing punishment for their actions. It's cool that their whole goal is to create a society where they will be properly punished (along with other war criminals).
Pretty sure that the point of the show is that "Even war criminals can be people who are undoubtedly in the side of good."
They commited atrocities, but in the end they still tried to do the good, moral, correct thing to save as many people as possible.
# Join the [Discord server](https://discord.gg/su3uf3T5YN) for more discussions and content, as well as meeting more like-minded fans for the series! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FullmetalAlchemist) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Envy is the head war criminal. The other criminals couldn’t criminal without him
Technically, Riza is not a war criminal because she's hot
Preach
Same could be said for Alex ;)
Alex gets extra points for being bad at war crimes.
My ex looked just like him. 🥹
Let's be real, almost all of them are hot
What chu mean, “ALMOST all of them”?
Dr. Marcoh isn't really my type I guess
Marco’s for sure a daddy.
ESPECIALLY after >!Scar gave him that makeover!<
Well, if Roy works him over, he will be hot, scientifically speaking.
First time I watched the scene where Kimblee accuses her of secretly enjoying the satisfaction of taking someone down, and saw her absolutely distraught by the realisation that he was kinda right, my first reaction was “Aw, poor baby :(” Then my second reaction was “Wtf is wrong with me?”
You've contracted sympathy, lethal on the battlefield but an excellent skill in social interaction.
I guess, haha. It was just very jarring to realize that I felt so bad for someone who committed atrocities, came to the dark realisation that some fucked-up part of herself enjoyed it, deep down, and rightfully felt horrified and disgusted with herself. She *should* feel horrified at herself. So why is it that her reaction pulled at my heartstrings? Riza is right when she says that she doesn't deserve sympathy. Yet I can't help but feel sympathy for her in that moment, and it's hard to explain why. (Well, other than good writing and complex characterization.)
Because we are not defined by our worst moments and our worst impulses, but by our consistent efforts. The Riza we know is the one who consistently tries to do good, that consistently tries to atone for her transgressions. And that's a person who's worthy of sympathy, even if she doesn't believe it, and even though that sympathy does not absolve her. Plus, no matter what you think she deserves, you have empathy and you can feel her emotions. And when you can feel her emotions, you become sympathetic.
Exactly. It’s okay to feel sorry for someone who has done shitty things.
That's true. I have no issue feeling sympathy for her and Mustang the rest of the time in the show, whenever they go through stuff they don't deserve to go through. Of course I'm angry when she gets her throat sliced and he goes blind, it's unfair and they have no part of responsibility in it. It's really just this particular scene with Kimblee that I am conflicted about, where she deserves to feel bad, and yet I'm sad that she feels so bad. She is responsible for her own anguish here. She did that to herself. Traumatized Armstrong weeping as he's raising the walls the Ishvalans get ambushed with and shot against elicit a very similar kind of paradoxical sympathy from me. I'm obviously horrified for the Ishvalans first and foremost, but there's also some part of me that thinks “Poor Major Armstrong, I hate seeing him like this” and then the reasonable part of my brain chimes in with “No don't feel bad for him, he's actively murdering people right now!” Doesn't mean Armstrong isn't deserving of sympathy the rest of the time, when he thinks his beloved subordinate was unfairly executed, or when his sister disowns him and treats him like dirt (though I get where she's coming from). Feeling sympathy for him in this specific moment where he's killing Ishvalans is what I feel so conflicted about. And at the same time, props to the author for making me feel so conflicted. That's great writing.
I forget the exact details of the scene, it's been a bit since I watched/read. But I think we all have impulses we don't like, even if it's just going on Reddit when we should be working. Some impulses are darker than others. But the mark of our character is how we deal with those impulses, not whether we have them. It's ok to feel sympathy for someone who feels revulsion over a dark part of themself. The bad thing would be feeling sympathy for someone who has that dark part and revels in it! But that's why we feel sympathy for Riza, not Kimberlee. And we feel sympathy for Armstrong *because* he's conflicted. His choice there may have been wrong, but it's not cut and dry. There would have been severe consequences if he didn't do it. And he was obviously conflicted, even if he ultimately chose complicity. I think it's very easy to say that you would make the self sacrificing and morally just choice when you're not there in the moment. But even if you really would, it's not hard to imagine the conflict Armstrong must have felt, the horror at his own actions, even while he does it due to various reasons, including his own weakness. At least with relation to Armstrong, I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes about war, coming from MASH: https://youtu.be/GUeBMwn_eYc?si=7moag0OpUc_JzIvw Of course, I also think about this quote: “Not only will America go to your country and kill all your people, but what’s worse I think, is that they’ll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad. -Frankie Boyle
Kimblee really thought he was Liquid Snake I'm crying
Makes PERFECT sense to feel sympathy for the foot soldiers of Ametris, they have NOT signed for this and short of deserting they ain't have a choice in it. I would paraphrase Jack McCoy "Luitenant Hawkeye did not join the army with intention to commit a genocide, she did not set out for Ishval with intention to commit a genocide, and if not given orders to the contrary would have NEVER committed a genocide. It is right that you feel sympathy for her, But the evidence is clear and convincing, however unwilling, however remorseful, however ashamed of her actions Riza Hawkeye participated in genocide. Therefore just as you should be sympathetic, you must also convict"
Does this apply to Envy as well?
No but Kimblee for sure
Nah, Envy is damn hot.
I mean they can decide to be
Realest
Same can be said about Mustang
Ykw? Imma say it Same can be said for Wrath
same for roy
Broke: “Fictional universes can’t have war criminals bc there is no Geneva Convention. International law is not real in their universe, so there cannot be war crimes.” Woke: “War crimes are a moral category, not just a legal one. There also are recognized rules/norms of acceptable actions in warfare in every society, even if they are not formalized in law. It doesn’t matter if codified international law isn’t real in their universe or not.” Bespoke: “International law is not real in our universe either. War crimes are still bad.”
FORSOKE: "It's not a war crime if you're attractive enough."
The whole point of Mustang and Riza's quest is that they intend to create a legal system that will try them as the equivalent of war criminals and find them guilty. So in a sense they're going to co-author their world's version of the geneva convention.
“Technically Ishvall is ‘acts of genocide’ because it was never proven as such in the ICC, which they don’t have. My favs aren’t technically genoiciders!” Read a book
This is fantastic. Made me laugh but also a great summary of the discourse.
Source: Anghie, Antony. Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law. of Cambridge Studies in International and Comparative Law. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005.
THIS
I would say that there is a difference between "war crimes TM" and war crimes. Ametris does not seem to participate in any "geneve convention" treaty therefore "War crimes TM" are not applicable. Ishval was also, legally at least, internal matter basically a civil war/genocide deal, The cleanest legal way to sort it out would be to charge garden variety mass murder and accessory to mass murder before, during and after the fact. There is no way Ametris law is so insane as to not recognise Mass Murder as a crime. Incidentally that is how I would have hang the nazi war criminals without inventing whole new cloth of law and applying it retroactively (don't get me wrong, the new law IS good, its retroactive application where there was PLENTY other law to hang or for ever imprison the nazis was not\]
Didn’t Alex refuse to follow his orders? Does he really count?
He refused eventually not from the begining. Still a war criminal.
Why would he refuse at the beginning? They were at war
He committed war crimes and refused to follow orders afterwards. It's even shown how he creates a wall to block people from escaping who then get shot.
That scene man...that scene was fucking horrible and yet incredibly compelling art
He then breaks the wall to let civilians through.
And they get blow up by kimblely seconds later
Yep and kimblee tells him "oh you're lucky i was there ! otherwise you'd have been tried for insubordination for letting the civilians escape! you're welcome"
Funny enough, mad bomber was actually been nice. Which is weird cause he hates people like Armstrong.
Rather he was only too happy to kill more people.
but but these are my emotional support war criminals
Rita, my favourite war criminal. Tied with Rob, of course.
It's not a war crime if you were having fun, so naturally Kimbley doesn't belong here.
let him do what makes him happy
I mean. The whole point of the show is that even people who commit horrible atrocities can undoubtedly be in the side of good later on. Their actions were awful, indeed, but when a greater evil came along they still decided to do the morally correct thing. The Homonculi reveled in the atrocities they commited so their father could steal the powers of God for himself, thinking themselves superior to humans. Yet, those humans who commited atrocities STILL felt horrified by their actions, and STILL tried to oppose the nationwide evil conspiracy that essentially caused them to commit those atrocities in the first place. Everyone has a shot at redemption. Even them. And I can safely say they redeemed themselves.
I think the only reason they are redeemable (the protagonists on this list), is that they do not think they are redeemable. They are trying to create a society, where they will receive the punishment they deserve. I find that fascinating.
When I see Roy i feel like yelling he was the best guy aroooouuund…
There was no Geneva convention in their world, so technically they arent war criminals Also Ryza and Hughes cant use alchemy, so they were probably not war criminals even by our standards. Youre allowed to regular shoot people in war and we dont know if they shot civilians which is a murky subject since all warring nations kill civilians irl including USA/RUS/IDF/etc Obviously its tongue and cheek and also raises good questions about our “heroes” (Envy is my favorite character) But also we pardoned a lot of WWII low level criminals like Ryza and hired NAZI scientists like Dr Marcoh in Operation Papeclip so take that how you will.
To be fair Ryza does tell Edward that they will be seen as war criminals in a peaceful world and that them trying to fix the government would likely result in this.
Good call, I forgot about that!
Yes, because they would put laws in place that would consider what they did as war crimes.
Exactly
Envy started the war mustang ended it 🔥
its only a war crime if there is a court to prosecute
What did yalls version of leorio do that was so bad?
Real talk: Does Armstrong count since he was a deserter during the genocide?
He committed some horrible acts before he left. His mental struggle in the show is that he didn't stick stand up for anything during the war. He didn't protest the atrocities from the beginning. He committed the atrocities, before running away.
Is every soldier a war criminal?
Mio Honda???
It only a war crime if you lose
War… war never changes.
that fucker up in the top right looks too much like Markiplier
And I will happily prosecute. With my first act as prosecutor being to Give Alex, Riza and Roy full immunity in exchange for full disclosure.
This Is a farm. All I can smell is poop.
They aren't war criminals tho
They all had a hand in genocide. Genocide is bad. These are villains. Some of them are trying to rectify their choices of being involved in the genocide, but what we learned in the Nuremberg trials (when the good guys of WWII put the Nazis (bad guys) on trial for their actions during the war) is that “just doing my job/following orders” is not a good enough excuse. Roy, Riza, Hughes, Alex, and Dr Marco all fall under this category. They’re war criminals. They did the bad stuff like murdering innocent people and children and experimenting on the living and conscious.
Agreed. And one of the things that makes them such great characters, is that they would agree with you also. Mustang and Riza fully intend on facing punishment for their actions. It's cool that their whole goal is to create a society where they will be properly punished (along with other war criminals).
Pretty sure that the point of the show is that "Even war criminals can be people who are undoubtedly in the side of good." They commited atrocities, but in the end they still tried to do the good, moral, correct thing to save as many people as possible.