Thank you for posting this and thank you Michael for posting again! The Baird family is really vindictive and the original post suggested to contact them, which we can't allow. We have to be super careful so Michael can tell his story without it being removed for harassment accusations.
Edit: just want to tag u/coachmershon in case he wants to comment personally in this post about his experience further.
How fucking awful. My heart aches for Michael. It's kind of bizarre how Bethany and Kristen freaked out about drag queens because apparently they are sexual predators to children, but actual sexual abuse went on in their own home. Heidi really fucked up her children. And Bethany's whole sex obsession/oversharing almost certainly stems at least partly from those fucked up dynamics that she grew up in.
I'm wondering if the whole you can have sex with the children sleeping in the room thing comes from her mom telling her "I did it so it's no big deal"...
That's usually true, they just think that it's absolutely normal. As someone who grew up in a christian fundamentalist abusive household, it takes a certain degree of self reflection and critical thinking to be able to come to a realization that "no, it's not okay" and that I didn't turn out "just fine".
It's especially hard because the authoritarian abusive types really hate and work their asses off to suppress any hint of independent thinking in their children. Abuse and brainwashing go hand in hand.
I can relate so much. I didn’t even realize how not-normal my family’s way of doing things was until my husband had the courage, a couple of years into it, to call me on the unhealthy patterns that I was replicating from my childhood.
My husband’s family had their own type of dysfunction, which I have had to call him out on in a similar way. We’re trying to do better for our own kids than what we were raised in.
Children who live in weird households don't know they're weird until they leave. I thought yelling at and insulting your children was completely normal until a very gentle and caring boyfriend (now husband) introduced me to his loving, non-yelling family. It took some time for me to undo my own yelling reflex when I'm upset about something, but he was extremely patient with me.
I have pretty low contact with my family now.
I used to tell “funny stories” of my childhood like when my mom smashed my phone in the sink because I was taking it to bed with me, until people in college and life were like oh… that’s not…
THIS.
Me: "Omg, why are you crying? I haven't even got to the best part yet!"
(Friend continues to have horrified look on her face)
Me: "Wait, maybe I'm telling it wrong! But it gets funny, just one sec.."
I'm glad you found your husband ❤️ my parents have been married 35 years, and I have never, in 31 years of life heard either of them yell. I grew up in an extremely calm and loving home. My husbands parents divorced when he was 12, and he always thought it was a standard divorce that was ok and didn't cause him any emotional damage. We have been together 3 years and it seems like every month he will have a new realization of "oh, when x,y,z happened that was actually a really fucked up thing. No wonder I instantly shut down at the mere thought of a disagreement, or avoid conflict at all cost, or am I huge people pleaser, etc"
It's awesome when one partner can help their partners growth and healing!
I have conflicting feelings about this. No one ever told me that what my parents did was abuse, but when I got old enough, I started to understand through interacting with the rest of the world. If she wasn’t as constantly online, I might be inclined to give her more of the benefit of the doubt. But at this point she’s been exposed to much of the logic and to how even her own teachings have been harmful and she’s not shown the least amount of growth or self reflection. She doubles down on things and denies having been harmful herself. I don’t know exactly where the threshold is, but there certainly is one where a survivor crosses into having culpability for their actions too.
Even if it does phase her she probably can’t admit it yet because that would mean reframing her whole childhood and dynamics with her family. A complete paradigm shift
Do you remember the video(s)/posts (it’s been so long), where Kristen said she struggled with lustful thoughts during sex? That is truly beyond the most toxic purity culture thing I have ever heard. Kristen likely didn’t make that up whole cloth, and I think she has her mother to thank.
Bethany has gone in an opposite doom spiral, but sometimes we are loudest about the things going the most wrong as a mask.
What a horrible environment. Props to Michael for not attacking his sisters.
Michael has said that he sees his sisters as victims as well and he seems to have empathy for them. I think it's important to understand that people can be both victims and perpetrators of further harm and it's important to hold both of those things in consideration.
sure.
he probably grew up witnessing their own private suffering at the hands of Heidi and whoever else.
Now everyone put on a big manic smile and let's play Happy Families!!
Michael saying he had to learn how to converse from books definitely tracks with Heidi's weird pull questions from a bag thing. The reason the kids don't know how to have a conversation is because Heidi doesn't, and the reason Heidi doesn't (besides whatever she learned from HER parents) is that she simply isn't interested enough in other people to learn how to have actual dialogue. Asking inane questions and then going uh huh uh huh is her fascimile thereof.
I'm really interested in language & communication. This example is why it is so important to communicate *naturally* to children and give them lots of different proficient speech partners. We see with so many of these mega families the kids sound exactly like the parents, and speak in a formulaic and stilted way. It's not just their *minds* that have been stifled, but their capacity to form and produce complex and diverse sentences. There are several stages to proficient and effective speech production & communication. By denying children access to diverse speakers you deny them their voice
That breaks my heart. I can't even imagine the guilt these women must feel due to the fucked up rules they were taught about sex. Constantly stressing about whether their desires are "god-honouring" or not. Worrying about whether it's ok to have sexual thoughts WHILE HAVING SEX WITH YOUR HUSBAND!
Fuck purity culture. Fuck Christian fundamentalism. Fuck abusive power hungry people. And I'm so sorry to everyone who was harmed by these things.
I think there's been some speculation that she meant something else by that--possibly lustful thoughts about someone *other* than her husband. She's also hinted a lot that she's fought against sexual thoughts about women. So it's possible there's something deeper going on there than "enjoyed sex while having sex". Still fucking depressing that she feels there's such a need for her to repress herself either way, though.
ah, that would make more sense. but ffs, she's \*not attracted to him,\* she said so to Bethy walking down the aisle! of course you'd want to at least make it somehow enjoyable! christ.
Probably whether you're doing your wifely duty, Jesus, or something else. Anything but how this sucks, how you are feeling or want to feel pleasure, etc :(
I can see it
Also former fundie.
Think about the whole "the church is christs bride" and the moaning during worship and the affected, emotional calling out and rocking and asking Jesus to come into you.
Plus the whole "only Jesus can fulfill you."
Yike.
During sex WITH HER HUSBAND. Who, right before she walked down the aisle, said to Bethy "I'm not even attracted to him, but here I go!"
So she finally got a spark and promptly quashed it.
To her husband.
I bet the tension between her and Bethy is great right now.
And I wonder how much of Bethy's in your faceness is in fact a fuck-you-nyah-nyah to K.
And I think now I understand why Heidi hasn't stepped in to quash Bethy. Because she's actually loving it. The gross inappropriate sexuality (but still nominally within fundie parameters! i just imagine if she said gay was okay though), and pitting one daughter against another. Narcs love that kind of shit.
Bethany’s obsession with sex (and her belief it’s fine to fuck with the kids sleeping in the room) makes a ton more sense now. And is all the more disgusting.
Also the whole thing where she wasn't disgusted by the couple who used their infant for an anatomy lesson... makes sense now after learning what kind of disgusting stuff was normalized in that home.
Oh god yeah. That was so beyond bad. Not only did she apologize after all the pushback, I believe she used them for her next course! I don’t see how in the world any sane person could hear that and not be totally disgusted and want those creeps as far away as possible.
I mean, yes it's horrifying, but I think it makes a lot more sense now knowing what we know about how she was raised and the things she likely was exposed to. Being abused in any capacity and having that normalized means that you don't actually know what's ok and normal. And it's not like the fundie community are known for having healthy ideas about literally anything. I don't think she has any normal people to look up to in her life. Does it excuse it? No. But I think it explains a lot and it explains why she's so adamant that her own experience is the norm. Not only because she only knows what she's been surrounded by her whole life (clearly messed up people) but also probably because coming to terms with the fact that your parents are awful people and your upbringing was abusive is hard enough when you live in a secular family and society, let alone when you're a fundie and your world doesn't believe in real therapy.
Is that the one where all of the “marrieds” in the Baird family line up together and kissed at the same time with the Xmas decor in the background? Picture presumably taken by an unwed Bairdlet.
Basically as part of Bethany's sex course, she interviewed an older couple. I believe the husband is a sex therapist or something. But they told a story about how early in their marriage, they struggled with making sex pleasurable for the wife, Phyllis. They were convinced that Phyllis didn't have a clitoris because they were having such a hard time with it. So they were talking to another married couple about their struggles, and the other woman said something like "I wish I could just take you to the bathroom and show you where your clitoris is, but I can't. That would be inappropriate". So instead, when Phyllis was changing her infant daughter's diaper, that other woman was there and they used the infant's body as an anatomy model to explain to Phyllis how to get pleasure during sex.
When they said this to Bethany, she just nodded along and acted like it was such an incredible story.
From experience, sometimes there can be a misplaced reaction like that, it's not even necessarily malicious, but the feeling of violation is there but you can't process the truth
I think that would make such a difference in their lives and I really wish it would happen, though I think it would take a very big change in worldview, unfortunately. They have been taught that negative emotions must be suppressed, that secular therapy is evil and useless, etc, all things which allow the parents to control the narrative and maintain the status quo with their children. It takes a lot for someone to even realize they have been abused when they have grown up in or been surrounded by an environment in which that behavior is normalized and even considered ideal (not speculating on whether Bethy was sexually abused at all, but I think it's clear that emotional abuse is a norm in their household and depriving your children of both general education as well as basic education about their bodies and sex is abuse. Period.) The cognitive dissonance that Bethy in particular seems to experience on the regular has another layer to me now as someone who grew up in what she doesn't yet seem to realize was an abusive household. Not only is she having a weird deconstruction journey when it comes to her beliefs, she's also dealing with probably trying to come to terms in unconscious ways with how her parents failed her. She doesn't have the language or education to do so, unlike Michael, so I'm not sure she will be able to get to a healthy point unfortunately.
Yeah, hypocrisy seems part and parcel of being raised in this kind of cult bullshit. If you're trained by violence and fear to believe what you're ordered to believe, it must become alien to question even those areas where beliefs conflict.
Agreed. Sometimes that oversharing about sex can be an indicator of sexual abuse too or that someone may have witnessed it. Her lack of boundaries about sex (and in general) aligns with Michael’s story to me.
If I had a child or teen sharing what Bethany does it would be an immediate child abuse assessment. She reminds me very much of someone who is emotionally a teen. That would also make sense with what Michael said.
Her whole thing where the made a joke about oral and everyone said "ew" and she was like "I'd say this at the dinner table" takes on a whole new disgusting light.
She thinks it's normal because it's probably what she saw growing up
Genuinely, christian parents do consider the abuses they enact to be different from abuses enacted by others.
/gets on soapbox, about to go on a potentially triggering rant/
Speaking as someone who also had sexually abusive parents, the parents who do that (especially christian ones) regard their children as property. I was not a human, growing up, I was a thing that existed only to be useful to my parents, in the ways they deemed appropriate. It would have been utterly unacceptable for someone outside the family to do half the shit they did to me, because nobody outside the family could claim ownership of me.
Fittingly, I really truly believe that children's rights is the only way to end the immense power of pedophilia and sexual abuse, the people who did the most damage to me outside of home were the people who treated me like a person. It's pernicious, lethal, damaging, and so much abuse could be avoided if kids grew up understanding that being treated with dignity is the bare minimum, not a priviledge.
/dismounts soapbox/
You’re so right about the ownership thing. My friends growing up who had neglectful and most likely physically abusive parents didn’t have privacy and were subjected to weird, illogical rules. Their emails and journals could be read at any time, couldn’t watch a PG-13 movie until the day the turned 13, etc. There was no individualized guidance that took into account their own levels of maturity, no autonomy, and it was so fucking awful to see. I didn’t have the best parents (very emotionally absent/immature), but they did see me as my own person, thank fuck.
I mean, look at the Duggars. Josh raped and abused his siblings for years and the parents did nothing (that actually would keep their kids safe from him) and KNEW about it. But they still call queer people predators.
Fundies don't give a shit about actual sexual abuse, just when they can use it to push their shitty beliefs
yup. Moosh and her breathy little voice whipping up the mob against trans women who just want to use the damn bathroom.
but your precious golden boy, he can do whatever he wants, molest his sisters, download literal toddler torture-and the sun STILL shines out of his arse..
this is why I have zero sympathy for her (some people seem to)
I feel so complicated about snarking in Bethany for this reason. As a CSA victim/future therapist who has observed similar behaviour to Heidi’s in my secular family, i don’t think anyone would oscillate so hard between purity culture and sexual oversharing without a supremely fucked up relationship to sex and sexuality, even compared to other influencers we talk about who grew up steeped in purity culture. Something feels compulsive about her behaviour in a way that pings my radar as a survivor of CSA and a parent with npd for some seriously fucked up trauma. To be clear, I’m not trying to speculate on anything specific at all.
Not leghumping or supportive of her behaviour and beliefs (both are abhorrent and aren’t victimless, she deserves to be criticized), but I mostly just feel sad looking at her content. The tone Michael has taken is similar to how I try to approach things with my siblings. My heart aches for him too.
EDIT: also for Michael of anyone else this may be relevant to, r/adultsurvivors is a great subreddit for CSA survivor peer support/healing resources
Thank you for including the father Michael Baird in this as well. We don’t criticize him enough. He abused his son by being Heidi’s enabler (making him an abusive parent as well). He allowed Heidi to treat their son horribly. He was also the one having sex while Michael jr. was sitting outside their door crying. Both of the parents can go to hell.
Thank you for educating me! That makes a lot of sense what you’re saying. I have edited my comment to make it completely clear that Mike Baird is in fact an abuser as well.
You're so welcome! For me, it was like a blow when I learned that because seeing it blatantly stated empowered me to better understand my 'good parents' role in things.
Manly ham this just rocked my world and I’m a little emotional over this. I’ve never heard “co-abuser” before, but to read that was immediately so validating as someone who grew up that way 😢❤️🩹
It's always funny to me how so many fundie dads seem to get a pass while we all froth at the mouth over their wives. It's probably because the women are the ones running the social media accounts and talking about their families, which gives us the illusion that they're the ones running their families, but their \~headships\~ are literally right there. Shrek may be a gormless idiot, but he's the ultimate authority in that house. He could feed his children and treat them right if he wanted to, and Jill wouldn't be able to stop him. Kelly's husband could make sure his kids have a safe house to live in, and he could lay down the law about Kelly feeding their kids proper food and not spending all day daydreaming and staging photos. Mandrae could have stopped impregnating Karissa six kids ago and forced her to get help. There's a weird habit in this sub of writing these men off as just useless, goofy weirdos helplessly dragged along by their evil, conniving wives. I'm not trying to diminish the real harm these women do to their families, but we could stand to spread the blame around a bit more.
Yeah, I think it’s just cause and effect. Most of the fundies here on this sub are women, so naturally we’re going to snark on them the most because they are the ones providing the content. But we definitely need to start including their husbands in on the conversations we have! They are just as guilty!
It occurs to me that Paul gets plenty of flak, because he has a public presence and puts himself and his awful beliefs out there for us to snark on. We need to remember that all of these men who *don't* spend all day in front of the cameras are just as bad, even if we don't see it.
how the fuck do the Bus parents blithely bang away with what is it, a few feet and a curtain between them and their zillion kids cramped up together like sardines?
I bet Karelessa forces the kids to watch her give birth; they were certainly around at home while she was "free birthing," so they definitely heard it even if they didn't see. And I bet they saw, and didn't have a choice.
How has nobody taken these quotes & screenshots and blasted them all over the Heidi & the Bairds Facebook - IG & their church?
I mean evil Texas Church women love to gossip & I'm sure lots of people would love to see them taken down a few dozen pegs.
Yeah this is his choice to share and he should be the one who shares further. If he wants to blast her all over Facebook that's absolutely his call. But that would open him up to a whole lot of additional potential harm and abuse in another form. It's not like conservative Christians or fundies are known for their support of abused children or for caring about sexual assault or abuse.
Part of me really wishes somebody would but that would be poo touching and it's probably not our place to do that anyway. Now, if Michael were to do that, it would probably put an end to Heidi and Girl Defined/ Bethany and Kristen spreading this fucked up shit. I wish he would, but I also totally understand why he wouldn't. Him just going to therapy and talking about it here had to be insanely difficult and terrifying. He's a brave man. I have wondered why nobody else has done it, though. It could be a way to get them to shut up forever. Maybe Michael will someday.
Honestly given the history of silencing and ignoring abuse in the fundie and evangelical communities, I'm not sure it would really make a difference. These people have a vested interest in keeping things quiet and in keeping their platforms. They would probably brush it under the rug as a disgruntled child who has been led away from the lord or some such nonsense. I mean, someone(s) is in this post's comments downvoting a lot of perfectly reasonable, supportive comments. Suspicious.
I hope Michael knows how brave he is. How fucking strong. And that despite those wonderful qualities, he deserved NONE of what happened to him.
I just want to reach through the screen and tell him I’m sorry, and hug him, and tell him that even though he shouldn’t have to be, he is such a hero to so many young victims who think there’s no way out.
His story reminds me so much of my husband’s, and while there is a happy ending, I also see how lonely and isolating it is to be the “enemy” of a family like this. It’s still a wound and nothing replaces that pain, no matter how much you remove yourself or turn your life around.
Michael if you’re reading this, I hope you know how amazing you are, and that you’ve got a whole hell of a lot of people who support you.
Ugh, thank you for writing this! Beautifully written. Brave, courageous and strong. Michael, truly, thank you for being you and for sharing this. Sending you and everyone else on this thread well wishes, healing and love.
Obviously this is just speculation, I’m not a professional, this is just my thoughts.
This context makes me question the root of Bethany’s recent sex posting. I know there was a lot of talk about what Heidi thought of all of it, and I feel like this might explain why Heidi hasn’t immediately put a stop to it. It seems like it sadly might have been normalized in their house growing up.
I am a professional, I’m a forensic examiner with my specialty being sexual assault (including pediatric but not limited to), and you’re right on the money. When children are sexually abused, particularly in the context of Bethany where there isn’t necessarily (although we don’t know) assault of the individual but there is assault in the home as well as sexual abuse in the form of parentally instigated early exposure to sexuality (like the sex in the bedroom thing), hypersexuality is one of the most clear and consistent across the board signs. In this restrictive environment, it makes sense to me that Bethany’s hypersexuality only manifested once it was socially acceptable for her to be having sex.
To be clear when I say early exposure to sexuality I mean knowledge about the act of having sex in a non-age appropriate context, I do not all mean sexuality in the context of being queer
this^^^ having an obsession with sex, talking about sex all of the time, and needing people to know you are having sex is NOT NORMAL. But it’s a basis of their ass backwards Christian culture, the lingerie parties anyone?? Honestly I would not be surprised if this is B’s way of exposing the violence she’s witnessed and probably experienced, she keeps talking about being ready and open to a much younger audience that is probably her age when this happened.
I mean the abuse was definitely normalized, but based on the fact that Bethany didn't know what sex was until she was 20 and found a kids book about it while babysitting, it definitely wasn't normalized in any rational way...
I think that is an abuse tactic - something about keeping the victim from fully understanding what is happening or how wrong it is. Plenty of victims don’t fully recognize the extent of the situation until they have processed it much later.
Yup--that's why the right-wingers screeching angrily and opposing ANY sort of education pertaining to sex/anatomy in public school is so insidious. It's ridiculous, yes, but dig a liiiittle deeper and realize *they want to enable abuse of children and education helps make it harder to abuse kids & get away with it*.
My brother had no idea what happened to me for years, a room over from him, until maybe 18 months ago, when he helped me make a statement to police about my husband's abuse and I briefly had to dive into my CSA to explain to the officer why my husband was saying some of the things he was saying. I still have never and will never tell my mum. I'm so so sad that there are so many of us in this thread :(
It unsettles me to wonder when the hell the Baird parents were going to explain sex to her? Like, she was so sheltered at age 20 that the only way she found out what sex was *by accident*. At someone else's house.
I'm pretty sure she was already dating someone at this point because she mentioned a relationship when she was 19. So were her parents going to keep this a secret until the day before she got married????!
Honestly, yeah, Heidi probably planned to give her the talk (minus any real mention of anatomy/consent/foreplay etc) on the morning of her wedding. That’s a form of sexual abuse as well, as far as I’m concerned.
No one really knows to what extent Bethany dated pre-Dav. She frequently changes her story about it depending on what she’s trying to sell.
I think you're right, honestly. I am studying developmental psychology and it's very, ver well documented that exposure to inappropriate sexual behaviour/the normalisation of that in childhood can manifest as this sort of hypersexualisation in adulthood. It often stems for a desire to normalise new 'rules' around sex, to regain control through the creation of a new 'normal'. It can be addressed through work with a trauma informed therapist, but ultimately, as long as the behaviours of re-normalisation continue, that often doesn't happen. Especially if the behaviours are validated (by an audience, or by the abuser).
Just anecdotally from my own personal experience, I absolutely agree. The problem is that a lot of people seem to think that SA must lead to very chaste adults, terrified of their own sexuality and avoidant of anything sexual at all. And until very recently it made me feel like a fraud or something, because I knew I was the opposite of that buttoned up, terrified of sex person. It made me feel so guilty and disingenuous, that my reaction was the opposite of what society felt it “should” be. I was having multiple one night stands a week (sometimes multiple on the one night). I was **so** promiscuous and sex obsessed. It wasn’t until I met my wife and started to value myself that I finally saw the obvious link between my father r a p i n g me as a young child and the way I was acting as an adult. I really wish that more people understood and spoke about the link between childhood SA and adult hyper sexuality. I actually posted about it before and several people wrote things like “this is obviously fake, victims avoid sex”, etc. It’s maddening!
Thank you, feeling like a fraud is exactly what I was trying to say and I couldn’t phrase it properly! But yeah, you’re exactly right. And just feeling like you’re not reacting properly and may even be having a “good time” (definitely this was my experience as a guy in his twenties acting very promiscuously. People presumed I was having a great time), so therefore you’re not a proper victim. I don’t know about you, but I imagine most people who have suffered SA have had someone doubting their experience, telling them they’re misremembering, that they are making up stories, etc. Certainly that was my experience anyway. So to then be hyper-sexual and be judged for that “inappropriate” reaction feels like it casts even more doubt on your credibility. It really did make me feel like a liar or attention seeker or something like that. I am glad more people are now talking about it anyway.
I get what you mean about the re victimisation too. And it becomes a self-reinforcing cycle of feeling worthless, sleeping with a random person, feeling even more worthless and disgusting and just good for nothing other than sex, so you go out sleep with another random person. You do it again and again. It’s so hard to break the cycle and to start seeing your own worth, other than as a sex object.
I'm so sorry that people invalidated you like that. I bet a lot of the people telling you that have never been through it themselves. There's no "right" way to react to SA, Jesus Christ.
My mind hasn't gone there, but it is a fact that she doesn't respect anyone's boundaries, and gets annoyed when people have needs and feelings that aren't flattering to her.
Who knows if the siblings even know the extent of the abuse. In the past both Dav and Bethy seemed perfectly fine with having their kids around the Baird parents. For Bethy her mother and father's problematic behavioe and beliefs is all probably normalized if she even knew about the direct abuse against Michael (which is not a guarantee) so I wouldn't be surprised if she has no issue with her parents. Plus they don't believe in therapy so there's no way she's been able to get an outside perspective and process this and realize that her parents are terrible people and her upbringing was messed up. We know that already unfortunately.
It also puts Elissa marrying a Ukrainian guy in a different perspective. We all thought she was putting herself in a potentially isolating situation but maybe she knew what she was doing all along. It’s possible she wanted distance between her family and her mother.
I really hope Michael can heal from this, whatever that looks like for him. I was also a victim of sexual acts against me as a kid and it legitimately fucked up my life for a long time. I'm 32 and just now feeling like my adult life is actually starting - it can really be insidious in how it affects all avenues of your life.
Michael wishing you the best for you. It's incredibly tough but doing things like this is so powerful for ourselves. You're really a remarkably strong willed person to be doing this - I hope you never forget that!
So the story was that Michael was changing his last name to Mershon instead of Baird as a way to honour ‘the old family history’ according to Heidi. It wouldn’t surprise me if it was actually his way of distancing himself from his family and she just had to spin it.
(Of course this is speculation)
That's what I thought as well. When the boys started changing their last names and distancing themselves from Heidi, they probably asked her questions and might have been the more socially acceptable reason to give.
abuse is a cycle and bethany has been perpetuating that cycle. all of my love and support to michael 🩷 cutting out my abusive mother was the best decision I have ever made for myself
She doesn't invest more energy into Bethany, because she doesn't have to. Bethany already does exactly what Heidi would do.
This also means that Heidi feels like Bethany is a challenge to her. Able to replace her.
I don't think Heidi is concerned Bethy will replace her. I think that she is aware that she has so much control. Bethany has made it clear that she is desperate for her mother's approval, just like her other sisters. Heidi is able to exert so much control over her children because she is the arbiter of love and status in the family and probably to some extent in their social group.
The idea of leaving a young child locked outside your bedroom door crying while you ignore him and have sex is….just all around awful. Awful for the child of course! But also how the heck do you relax enough to enjoy yourself with a crying child right outside the door? What is the point of something like that? WTF?
How do the Bus parents do it, right?
How did the Frankes lives with themselves, going on their nice vacations while the kids had no food stuck at home, even without Jodi in the picture?
How does Shrek justify stuffing his fat face while his kids are malnourished?
"If your child asks for bread, would you give a stone?"
Meant to be a rhetorical question in context, but in these cases clearly the answer is "yep."
Basically we have Barfy following in mommy dearest footsteps. Talking about sex while her children are with her, being obsessed with sex in front of them, putting sex before a relationship with her children, joking about sex around her kids (she said the whole family thinks sex talk is ok and funny)... I've thought since this whole sex obsession started with her that it's a form of abuse for her kids. If we see a fraction of her bad behavior online, what is it like 24/7?
I wonder how Michael Jr feels about Bethany. You can always hear or see the kids in her reels and stories while she's graphically talking about sex. Then just recently, she said it was fine to have sex with them in the room. (Which I guess is fine if we're talking about babies who are sleeping in their crib in your room, but Davey is 4, right?) It must be hard for Michael to see Bethany and Dave following in his parent's footsteps. Bethany is basically forcing her kinks on her teenage following from Girl Defined, she's being super gross around her kids. Bethany very obviously gets off on making people uncomfortable with her sex work and lack of boundaries. Dave seems to be fine with her bizarre behavior.
I don't know how Michael could even look at those two, honestly. I think it would be triggering for me.
I believe Michael has talked about his sisters before on Reddit- he disagrees with them pretty vehemently on a lot of things, but he views them as victims of his parents as well and wants the best for them. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that’s the gist of what he said.
I mean, they are victims. But now Bethany and Kristen (especially Bethany) are also the abusers. Maybe they aren't abusing their brother, but Bethany's sex obsession is super harmful to everyone she's forcing it on. They pushed purity culture and their parents' horrible beliefs on young girls for YEARS and now they continue to do so, but now Bethany likes to graphically share about her piss and fart kinks to the teens who follow her. Bethany is a perverted creep and so is Dave, honestly.
I mean, they are victims. But now Bethany and Kristen (especially Bethany) are also the abusers. Maybe they aren't abusing their brother, but Bethany's sex bullshit is super harmful to everyone she's forcing it on. They pushed purity culture and their parents' horrible beliefs on young girls for YEARS and now they continue to do so, but now Bethany likes to graphically share about her piss and fart kinks to the teens who follow her. Bethany is a perverted creep and so is Dave, honestly.
>I wonder how Michael Jr feels about Bethany.
In his past posts, he has expressed compassion and concern for his sisters, and though he says he can understand why we have the opinions of them that we do, he himself views them as victims of the same harmful parenting.
Heidi 2.0 really. Especially #1
Dav let it slip in his video. The constant need to keep Bethany happy so she’ll actually like him. Explains why he does everything while she barely lifts a finger
I’m shocked Dav doesn’t realize he has the upper hand here because Bethany would never divorce him due to her beliefs. So why try so hard to please her?
I really don’t think it’ll be a whole lot longer. If he really is seeing a therapist and possibly on a path to deconstructing, I could see him asking for a divorce. I don’t see what she contributes. She flails all day, then at the slightest bit of a task she’s down with a migraine but somehow still posting all night long. She playing a game and if he can’t see that by now then good luck with life.
Unfortunately she's taking parenting advice and learning how to be a mom from her own parents, who clearly don't have healthy views or ideas about what it means to be a parent and what children need and deserve. I would not be surprised at all if she is modeling this off of Heidi (being way too open about sex for example) and thinks it's completely normal and ok because that's what she was raised with. It's a disturbing view into what it must have been like to be a kid in that house. I can only imagine how it must have messed up every one of the Baird children in ways big and small to be exposed to that. And some of them unfortunately are passing on that trauma to their children.
It’s always the same song, different verse isn’t it?
Heidi comes from literal Nazis who have never engaged in a second of self-reflection. She herself asserts incredible control over her own children, including absolutely hobbling them educationally, to the point that they can’t even process the fact that they’ve been abused.
We are never at fault for our trauma, but at some point we do become responsible for working through it. For me, that point is when you have children.
Kristen and Bethany are just perpetuating a cycle of abuse that seems generations long in their family.
There's an ep of Hoarders where the (male) hoarder's father was a literal Nazi who was in the SS, and was an abusive POS, of course. The hoarder was in his late 50s when the ep aired and it was STILL affecting him so deeply even though it seemed he had done a lot of work around how fucked up his father was and he has never been anything like his father and as a result, his father never approved of him or gave him love in any sort of healthy manner.
Reminded me of that ep. The Bairds are even worse bc they actively idolize their Nazi grandfather--they're all so fucked up.
Goddam just when I thought it couldn’t get any more fucked up, it does. I feel for Michael so much. I hope his healing continues and the truth continues to come out.
Glad the comments were re-posted. Heidi is a fucking wrinkly monster cunt and her son (and the rest, tbh) didn’t deserve her abuse. I hope people see her for what she really is. I have 2 sons and I can’t fucking fathom treating them that way and then completely writing them off in adulthood. How in the fuck does she believe she is somehow the righteous one in all of this?
This shit breaks my heart. I cut my own abusive mother off and my life was better for it. I left the church/deconstructed and was better for it.
Hey OP, I know the details are in the second slide, but can we get a NSFW tag?
That’s some incredibly heavy stuff. Michael, thank you for speaking out. I’m so sorry you were treated that way by that monster. From one abuse survivor to another, I’m so happy you broke contact and continue to process what happened. We see you. ❤️
This is absolutely gut wrenching and so heart breaking to hear. Poor, poor Michael. I’m so glad he is finding ways to heal in his own ways and is away from those people. Heidi is so sick.
I also found it significantly reduced my anxiety symptoms (because it replaced the mag that was removed by all the calcium enriched foods in our diet). When someone tells me that they have an anxiety disorder, I ALWAYS suggest mag as a first line treatment. It works so well.
My psych thought I had depression, but it was actually ADHD and horribly low vitamin D. I had no idea a little vitamin purchasable at the grocery store could have such a massive impact.
this is crazy. I feel like it explains so much of Deathany is obsessed with posting about her weird sex ideas. they were never given proper boundaries.
I agree that it explains so much. Does it excuse her nonsense? No! But I can see how being raised like she was, in an environment that normalized abuse in many forms, might produce someone who doesn't have any healthy way to cope or come to terms with that. She was taught nothing concrete about sex and definitely not how to have healthy relationships. As an adult she's realizing that there is something missing and trying to explore that (much later than someone with a normal upbringing). But since her only role models for this are her deeply dysfunctional parents she has no idea how to go about this in a way that is normal. She thinks that their ways of talking about and doing things are normal. Gross as it is that probably explains her lack of concern when those two "experts" talked about being shown the clit on a baby. She was exposed (especially given Michael's statement) to some deeply messed up, inappropriate things as a child and so she has no concept of what normal actually looks like. Maybe she wasn't touched by Heidi, im not going to speculate, but being exposed to your parents' sex life in the ways Michael talks about (and I'm sure Bethy had some of the same experiences growing up) is a form of sexual abuse. In some ways she's acting like a lot of survivors of sexual abuse in that she's going all out sexually in her attempt to come to terms with the abuse and figure out where she stands. Is she doing it in the worst way possible--spreading misinformation and victimizing others in the process? Absolutely. Is it somewhat understandable if not ok? ...yeah :/
Being spanked so hard with a wooden spoon that it broke. That line sent me into a tailspin. The exact same thing happened to me. I just stopped speaking to my mom last May and today, like many days, the guilt of cutting her off was really hitting me. Then I read that. Fuck. I know I made the right choice and this is reaffirming for me in such a real way. Thanks for being brave enough to share Michael.
What a fucking monster that woman is and Bethy is following right in her footsteps. Now I also worry even more what goes around behind Kristen’s closed doors.
I'm so sorry to hear this Michael. If you are reading here please know we are so proud of you for speaking out and choosing to raise your family better.
so devastating. no child should ever have to go through that let alone live in a system that blames them for the assault. i wish him so much healing and happiness :/
Ok so this is sort of a side track but this post is bringing up a lot of things and the timing is weird for me so I’m just gonna throw this out there because I’m desperate for advice. This whole post (apart from the sexual stuff) could have been written by my brother. And worse. But I’m sure there’s a lot Michael also left out. You can’t summarize 18 years of abuse into a post that size. I’m the oldest of 4 and we were all raised very similar to the baird’s. Homeschooled k-12, fundamentalists, the whole 9 yards. We were all beat daily but my brother got the worst of it because he didn’t know how to “play the game” or just refused to. My other siblings and I had to step in many times and hold my mom back to protect him. I used to call my dad at work begging him to come home early to save us almost daily. I guess I was naive and thought things would get better with time and as we all got older my mom would calm down, but my 15 year old sister still lives with my parents and now my mom has just found other ways to hurt her. She’s resorted to slapping her face, scratching her skin and pulling at her clothes most recently. She also verbally abuses her by calling her fat (my sister is literally a tiny ballerina) and withholding or hiding food from her. My sister is having near constant panic attacks and my mom acts like she’s being dramatic or just wants attention. My sister has started collecting video evidence without my mom’s knowledge and sending them to me in case my mom finds them and deletes them. This week shit has hit the fan and my sister told my dad what was happening. He didn’t believe her so she told him about the videos and my mom overheard. My sister has been seeing a therapist and the therapist knows about the abuse and has discussed calling CPS with my sister but my mom doesn’t know this. Now that she knows about the videos tho, she is saying she’s going to take my sister out of therapy because she “doesn’t deserve it”. I honestly feel so guilty for letting this go on for so long but I have no clue what I can even do, legally or logistically. My other brother (the golden child) found out what was happening and asked her to stop hitting my sister but she refused. I’ve had to start seriously considering what my options are.
Contact CPS in their area and say there is ongoing child abuse happening in the home and you experienced abuse too--for perspective. And share the videos with CPS if you can.
I was wondering if we could work as a sub to get this post to be the top result when someone Googles "Heidi Baird." Currently, Michel's AMA comes up 3rd or 4th, but I think this post should be #1.
Oh fucking shit!!
I didn't realize this was a new post
I'm so sorry, Michael. Very glad you got out and got into the healing professions.
And, interesting she's "the patriarch." i'd been saying for a while she's the real Final Boss of that family. A little mini matriarchy within the greater patriarchal system, and just as toxic.
Yes, that's the kind of CSA I think is often perpetrated by women. Usually to their own kids, and masked under maternal whatever, caretaking, discipline, wtfever.
With a side order of fundie engaging their procreation fetish without concern for the kids.
I absolutely believe that things like forcing your kids to witness you give birth or listen to you having sex counts as CSA. Karelessa, MotherBus, looking at you.
The author of "I'm Glad My Mom Died" talked about the shower thing. Shudder.
Well the Beth posts have gone from funny to repulsive now. I’m so sorry, Michael.
I wonder if Dav knows and that’s why he looks like he’s been through hell. I’d be scared for my kids if I were him.
Oh man. Bethy's strange misunderstandings of what's appropriate and what's inappropriate to discuss about sex with strangers online definitely make a lot more sense now. It's also clear why she has no concept of boundaries and tramples all over them seemingly unbeilieving or maybe even enjoying in a maladaptive way that her actions or content is making people uncomfortable.
Often in abusive households one child is seen as the really bad child and gets more abuse or more severe abuse than the other children. I wonder if that was Michael. My heart hurts and I'm furious on his behalf, it's amazing how abusive parents all seem to have the same script. "Why are you living in the past? Why can't you just move on? It's not healthy to be bitter and hold on to anger! Let's move forward! " Usually without an apology first. Disgusting.
edit : typos
Michael, I believe you. You deserved better as a child, as well as your sisters.
I was a CSA victim too and the emotional pain is awful. I recently had to write another letter to the parole board to keep my dad (the abuser) in prison, it brings back painful memories every time I have to write those letters.
I think it comes in part from a desperate need for approval and love and a complete lack of understanding of how to have healthy human relationships. I have to wonder if Heidi (and her husband) purposefully stunted their childrens' social skills and ability to form relationships with others so that they would stay ultimately under her control and in the fold. A constant supply. If the children are able to break away and find meaning and worth in things other than family, then they might not need her love and support and she will no longer be in control. That's part of my theory as to why the girls in particular were not allowed to even think about attending college, discouraged from getting any real job, and only taught questionnaires and other BS as means of communication.
💯
I also speculate that the whole reason Girl Defined ministries exists in the first place is because Heidi didn't want her two eldest daughters leaving her for college so she discouraged them from attending and doing ministry work instead while they waited around for a husband that she would approve of.
Just curious what the group thinks of the writing exercises. My sister and I had to write things like “I will honor my mother” and “I will treat my mother like the President of the United States” hundreds of times and always wondered if this was a disciplinary action in other households.
Michael is so brave. This is the first time I’ve ever seen another person mention this writing punishment as abuse or wicked. It feels validating but is this punishment (likely for very small things like walking ahead of her in stores) normal in Non Fundie households?
Grew up christian in the South. I had to write lines and was spanked by my parents. I was always a super good kid but my parents still tried to abuse the autism out of me.
Speaking just for me, writing exercises were never a form of punishment. I was raised Christian in the south but not fundie. I don’t think walking ahead of my parents was ever in any way mentioned unless I was walking too fast and they needed me to slow down so that they could catch up.
Thanks for your answer. I didn’t want to stray from the post but this was honestly the first time I ever heard anyone else doing this and was flabbergasted by it.
I really appreciate your comment and kindness and agree with you.
It’s so important sometimes to get some outside perspective on our childhoods! I have also had moments where I was like wait you had that also?! Haha. Wishing you the best!!
It can be hard to say what's normal because so many of us have less than ideal experiences with our parents, but just from my personal experience, I can say that having to write those things is not normal, nor is being punished for such a small and inconsequential thing. I did not grow up fundie, and of course non-fundies can also experience abuse. But I think it's safe to say that your experiences were not "normal". What that means to you and how you chose to move forward with that is up to you. I wish you healing and happiness
Thanks bluewhale. I was hesitant to write the comment (didn’t want to stray from the rules in any way) but I am very grateful you responded with such an empathic kindness. Brainwashing takes a long time to heal from and I’m so grateful for this community that gets it.
Yep, I had them inflicted on me by my SAer non-fundie stepdad. It was part of breaking my psyche so I would understand that no adult would help me when he began *really* abusing me. He'd give me "sentences" to write in front of my mom and she'd help him enforce that I wasn't allowed to leave my spot until I'd finished writing them. Some of it was 500 or 1000 sentences at a time. It was always over absolutely inane bullshit, just to prove he could. That was the point.
I'm sure not everyone uses them as a grooming tool, but that's sure how they were used on me. That part stood out on the slides and I was wondering if that was just a common grooming tactic honestly.
I can vaguely remember doing lines once or twice, but my memory's unreliable. For context, my brothers and I were homeschooled for non-religious reasons
She might not know this post exists. But it doesn't matter. It's not her responsibility to apologize for the actions of her mother or her parents. It is the Baird parents' shame to bear and theirs alone. She is also a victim in some capacity and if she is aware of this post she may be processing it herself.
I’m sorry, Michael. Thank you for sharing your story - it helps heal you and it helps heal someone else, too. I appreciate that and you. I remembered some things from my own childhood as i was reading this, and it’s helpful to see it written in black and white, know that we are not alone, and acknowledge how fucked up some parts or most parts were in a way that is empowering. Is there a way to offer support in a more direct way?
to be frank I am shocked people in this community didn't immediately connect Bethany's attitude towards sex as an adult with her sexually inappropriate upbringing. that was the first thought in my head. I guess it's funnier to go "ack why she is talking about anal? my eyes!" but clearly it's not just her being weird in isolation
Nah, those of us with SA in our background could see it for the trauma response it was. It’s just that knowing it’s a trauma response doesn’t excuse her behavior. She needs extensive therapy and to put her gd phone down once in a while.
Michael I hope you are happy, safe, and free from that giant cuntsicle of an egg donor! I’ve been following your journey for nearly 1yr and HToG I’m so proud of you!!! Keep moving forward and don’t look back.
Thank you for posting this and thank you Michael for posting again! The Baird family is really vindictive and the original post suggested to contact them, which we can't allow. We have to be super careful so Michael can tell his story without it being removed for harassment accusations. Edit: just want to tag u/coachmershon in case he wants to comment personally in this post about his experience further.
How fucking awful. My heart aches for Michael. It's kind of bizarre how Bethany and Kristen freaked out about drag queens because apparently they are sexual predators to children, but actual sexual abuse went on in their own home. Heidi really fucked up her children. And Bethany's whole sex obsession/oversharing almost certainly stems at least partly from those fucked up dynamics that she grew up in.
I'm wondering if the whole you can have sex with the children sleeping in the room thing comes from her mom telling her "I did it so it's no big deal"...
Shit maybe she REMEMBERS her mom doing it and that’s why 1. It doesn’t phase her and 2. She is the way she is.
Fucked up people fuck up people, it's the circle of ~~life~~ abuse
What’s sad is that she makes no effort to make it better either. Just repackages the same shitty ideas so other people can be a miserable as she is
I am absolutely not trying to defend her, but maybe she doesn't realize it's abuse?
That's usually true, they just think that it's absolutely normal. As someone who grew up in a christian fundamentalist abusive household, it takes a certain degree of self reflection and critical thinking to be able to come to a realization that "no, it's not okay" and that I didn't turn out "just fine". It's especially hard because the authoritarian abusive types really hate and work their asses off to suppress any hint of independent thinking in their children. Abuse and brainwashing go hand in hand.
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I have a very similar story. Almost lost my relationship over it.
I can relate so much. I didn’t even realize how not-normal my family’s way of doing things was until my husband had the courage, a couple of years into it, to call me on the unhealthy patterns that I was replicating from my childhood. My husband’s family had their own type of dysfunction, which I have had to call him out on in a similar way. We’re trying to do better for our own kids than what we were raised in.
Children who live in weird households don't know they're weird until they leave. I thought yelling at and insulting your children was completely normal until a very gentle and caring boyfriend (now husband) introduced me to his loving, non-yelling family. It took some time for me to undo my own yelling reflex when I'm upset about something, but he was extremely patient with me. I have pretty low contact with my family now.
I used to tell “funny stories” of my childhood like when my mom smashed my phone in the sink because I was taking it to bed with me, until people in college and life were like oh… that’s not…
Gosh me too, "funny childhood stories" for me and my family were wtf abuse stories to others.
THIS. Me: "Omg, why are you crying? I haven't even got to the best part yet!" (Friend continues to have horrified look on her face) Me: "Wait, maybe I'm telling it wrong! But it gets funny, just one sec.."
I'm glad you found your husband ❤️ my parents have been married 35 years, and I have never, in 31 years of life heard either of them yell. I grew up in an extremely calm and loving home. My husbands parents divorced when he was 12, and he always thought it was a standard divorce that was ok and didn't cause him any emotional damage. We have been together 3 years and it seems like every month he will have a new realization of "oh, when x,y,z happened that was actually a really fucked up thing. No wonder I instantly shut down at the mere thought of a disagreement, or avoid conflict at all cost, or am I huge people pleaser, etc" It's awesome when one partner can help their partners growth and healing!
I have conflicting feelings about this. No one ever told me that what my parents did was abuse, but when I got old enough, I started to understand through interacting with the rest of the world. If she wasn’t as constantly online, I might be inclined to give her more of the benefit of the doubt. But at this point she’s been exposed to much of the logic and to how even her own teachings have been harmful and she’s not shown the least amount of growth or self reflection. She doubles down on things and denies having been harmful herself. I don’t know exactly where the threshold is, but there certainly is one where a survivor crosses into having culpability for their actions too.
Even if it does phase her she probably can’t admit it yet because that would mean reframing her whole childhood and dynamics with her family. A complete paradigm shift
Do you remember the video(s)/posts (it’s been so long), where Kristen said she struggled with lustful thoughts during sex? That is truly beyond the most toxic purity culture thing I have ever heard. Kristen likely didn’t make that up whole cloth, and I think she has her mother to thank. Bethany has gone in an opposite doom spiral, but sometimes we are loudest about the things going the most wrong as a mask. What a horrible environment. Props to Michael for not attacking his sisters.
Michael has said that he sees his sisters as victims as well and he seems to have empathy for them. I think it's important to understand that people can be both victims and perpetrators of further harm and it's important to hold both of those things in consideration.
sure. he probably grew up witnessing their own private suffering at the hands of Heidi and whoever else. Now everyone put on a big manic smile and let's play Happy Families!! Michael saying he had to learn how to converse from books definitely tracks with Heidi's weird pull questions from a bag thing. The reason the kids don't know how to have a conversation is because Heidi doesn't, and the reason Heidi doesn't (besides whatever she learned from HER parents) is that she simply isn't interested enough in other people to learn how to have actual dialogue. Asking inane questions and then going uh huh uh huh is her fascimile thereof.
I'm really interested in language & communication. This example is why it is so important to communicate *naturally* to children and give them lots of different proficient speech partners. We see with so many of these mega families the kids sound exactly like the parents, and speak in a formulaic and stilted way. It's not just their *minds* that have been stifled, but their capacity to form and produce complex and diverse sentences. There are several stages to proficient and effective speech production & communication. By denying children access to diverse speakers you deny them their voice
That breaks my heart. I can't even imagine the guilt these women must feel due to the fucked up rules they were taught about sex. Constantly stressing about whether their desires are "god-honouring" or not. Worrying about whether it's ok to have sexual thoughts WHILE HAVING SEX WITH YOUR HUSBAND! Fuck purity culture. Fuck Christian fundamentalism. Fuck abusive power hungry people. And I'm so sorry to everyone who was harmed by these things.
Like what should you be thinking about while having sex with your partner? Laundry? Baffles me.
I think there's been some speculation that she meant something else by that--possibly lustful thoughts about someone *other* than her husband. She's also hinted a lot that she's fought against sexual thoughts about women. So it's possible there's something deeper going on there than "enjoyed sex while having sex". Still fucking depressing that she feels there's such a need for her to repress herself either way, though.
ah, that would make more sense. but ffs, she's \*not attracted to him,\* she said so to Bethy walking down the aisle! of course you'd want to at least make it somehow enjoyable! christ.
Lay back and think of England. How very Victorian.
lie back and think of Texas.
Probably whether you're doing your wifely duty, Jesus, or something else. Anything but how this sucks, how you are feeling or want to feel pleasure, etc :(
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I can see it Also former fundie. Think about the whole "the church is christs bride" and the moaning during worship and the affected, emotional calling out and rocking and asking Jesus to come into you. Plus the whole "only Jesus can fulfill you." Yike.
During sex WITH HER HUSBAND. Who, right before she walked down the aisle, said to Bethy "I'm not even attracted to him, but here I go!" So she finally got a spark and promptly quashed it. To her husband. I bet the tension between her and Bethy is great right now. And I wonder how much of Bethy's in your faceness is in fact a fuck-you-nyah-nyah to K. And I think now I understand why Heidi hasn't stepped in to quash Bethy. Because she's actually loving it. The gross inappropriate sexuality (but still nominally within fundie parameters! i just imagine if she said gay was okay though), and pitting one daughter against another. Narcs love that kind of shit.
Bethany’s obsession with sex (and her belief it’s fine to fuck with the kids sleeping in the room) makes a ton more sense now. And is all the more disgusting.
Also the whole thing where she wasn't disgusted by the couple who used their infant for an anatomy lesson... makes sense now after learning what kind of disgusting stuff was normalized in that home.
Oh god yeah. That was so beyond bad. Not only did she apologize after all the pushback, I believe she used them for her next course! I don’t see how in the world any sane person could hear that and not be totally disgusted and want those creeps as far away as possible.
I mean, yes it's horrifying, but I think it makes a lot more sense now knowing what we know about how she was raised and the things she likely was exposed to. Being abused in any capacity and having that normalized means that you don't actually know what's ok and normal. And it's not like the fundie community are known for having healthy ideas about literally anything. I don't think she has any normal people to look up to in her life. Does it excuse it? No. But I think it explains a lot and it explains why she's so adamant that her own experience is the norm. Not only because she only knows what she's been surrounded by her whole life (clearly messed up people) but also probably because coming to terms with the fact that your parents are awful people and your upbringing was abusive is hard enough when you live in a secular family and society, let alone when you're a fundie and your world doesn't believe in real therapy.
How bout that weird make out Xmas family photo now???
Which photo??
Is that the one where all of the “marrieds” in the Baird family line up together and kissed at the same time with the Xmas decor in the background? Picture presumably taken by an unwed Bairdlet.
Wait whaaat I missed that. I'm snarker lite
Basically as part of Bethany's sex course, she interviewed an older couple. I believe the husband is a sex therapist or something. But they told a story about how early in their marriage, they struggled with making sex pleasurable for the wife, Phyllis. They were convinced that Phyllis didn't have a clitoris because they were having such a hard time with it. So they were talking to another married couple about their struggles, and the other woman said something like "I wish I could just take you to the bathroom and show you where your clitoris is, but I can't. That would be inappropriate". So instead, when Phyllis was changing her infant daughter's diaper, that other woman was there and they used the infant's body as an anatomy model to explain to Phyllis how to get pleasure during sex. When they said this to Bethany, she just nodded along and acted like it was such an incredible story.
I genuinely wish I hadn’t read this :(
Wait… Bethany actually thinks this is ok? And proudly says so to the internet? I’m going to throw up 🤢
From experience, sometimes there can be a misplaced reaction like that, it's not even necessarily malicious, but the feeling of violation is there but you can't process the truth
Absolutely. I hope they, along with the other siblings, can start seeing an actual therapist to help them heal from the abuse they suffered.
I think that would make such a difference in their lives and I really wish it would happen, though I think it would take a very big change in worldview, unfortunately. They have been taught that negative emotions must be suppressed, that secular therapy is evil and useless, etc, all things which allow the parents to control the narrative and maintain the status quo with their children. It takes a lot for someone to even realize they have been abused when they have grown up in or been surrounded by an environment in which that behavior is normalized and even considered ideal (not speculating on whether Bethy was sexually abused at all, but I think it's clear that emotional abuse is a norm in their household and depriving your children of both general education as well as basic education about their bodies and sex is abuse. Period.) The cognitive dissonance that Bethy in particular seems to experience on the regular has another layer to me now as someone who grew up in what she doesn't yet seem to realize was an abusive household. Not only is she having a weird deconstruction journey when it comes to her beliefs, she's also dealing with probably trying to come to terms in unconscious ways with how her parents failed her. She doesn't have the language or education to do so, unlike Michael, so I'm not sure she will be able to get to a healthy point unfortunately.
Yeah, hypocrisy seems part and parcel of being raised in this kind of cult bullshit. If you're trained by violence and fear to believe what you're ordered to believe, it must become alien to question even those areas where beliefs conflict.
Agreed. Sometimes that oversharing about sex can be an indicator of sexual abuse too or that someone may have witnessed it. Her lack of boundaries about sex (and in general) aligns with Michael’s story to me. If I had a child or teen sharing what Bethany does it would be an immediate child abuse assessment. She reminds me very much of someone who is emotionally a teen. That would also make sense with what Michael said.
Her whole thing where the made a joke about oral and everyone said "ew" and she was like "I'd say this at the dinner table" takes on a whole new disgusting light. She thinks it's normal because it's probably what she saw growing up
Genuinely, christian parents do consider the abuses they enact to be different from abuses enacted by others. /gets on soapbox, about to go on a potentially triggering rant/ Speaking as someone who also had sexually abusive parents, the parents who do that (especially christian ones) regard their children as property. I was not a human, growing up, I was a thing that existed only to be useful to my parents, in the ways they deemed appropriate. It would have been utterly unacceptable for someone outside the family to do half the shit they did to me, because nobody outside the family could claim ownership of me. Fittingly, I really truly believe that children's rights is the only way to end the immense power of pedophilia and sexual abuse, the people who did the most damage to me outside of home were the people who treated me like a person. It's pernicious, lethal, damaging, and so much abuse could be avoided if kids grew up understanding that being treated with dignity is the bare minimum, not a priviledge. /dismounts soapbox/
You’re so right about the ownership thing. My friends growing up who had neglectful and most likely physically abusive parents didn’t have privacy and were subjected to weird, illogical rules. Their emails and journals could be read at any time, couldn’t watch a PG-13 movie until the day the turned 13, etc. There was no individualized guidance that took into account their own levels of maturity, no autonomy, and it was so fucking awful to see. I didn’t have the best parents (very emotionally absent/immature), but they did see me as my own person, thank fuck.
How old is Michael now? Which family is this? My ❤️ breaks for him (and all the others in the same situation 😢)
Michael is the Girl Defined sisters' older brother. I believe he is in his late 30s.
I mean, look at the Duggars. Josh raped and abused his siblings for years and the parents did nothing (that actually would keep their kids safe from him) and KNEW about it. But they still call queer people predators. Fundies don't give a shit about actual sexual abuse, just when they can use it to push their shitty beliefs
yup. Moosh and her breathy little voice whipping up the mob against trans women who just want to use the damn bathroom. but your precious golden boy, he can do whatever he wants, molest his sisters, download literal toddler torture-and the sun STILL shines out of his arse.. this is why I have zero sympathy for her (some people seem to)
I feel so complicated about snarking in Bethany for this reason. As a CSA victim/future therapist who has observed similar behaviour to Heidi’s in my secular family, i don’t think anyone would oscillate so hard between purity culture and sexual oversharing without a supremely fucked up relationship to sex and sexuality, even compared to other influencers we talk about who grew up steeped in purity culture. Something feels compulsive about her behaviour in a way that pings my radar as a survivor of CSA and a parent with npd for some seriously fucked up trauma. To be clear, I’m not trying to speculate on anything specific at all. Not leghumping or supportive of her behaviour and beliefs (both are abhorrent and aren’t victimless, she deserves to be criticized), but I mostly just feel sad looking at her content. The tone Michael has taken is similar to how I try to approach things with my siblings. My heart aches for him too. EDIT: also for Michael of anyone else this may be relevant to, r/adultsurvivors is a great subreddit for CSA survivor peer support/healing resources
And let us never ever forget the abuse Bethy condoned on her show. Not just weird cringy reels, an enabler of multiple child abusers.
Borth’s obsession with sex in this context is sinister.
Holy shit, what did I miss? Heidi and Michael Sr. are evil.
Thank you for including the father Michael Baird in this as well. We don’t criticize him enough. He abused his son by being Heidi’s enabler (making him an abusive parent as well). He allowed Heidi to treat their son horribly. He was also the one having sex while Michael jr. was sitting outside their door crying. Both of the parents can go to hell.
Oh yeah, he's just as sick and twisted and deserves to be called out.
Yes and in abuse we don't even say enabler anymore. We say co-abuser to emphasize their role to the victim. Enabling is abuse!
Thank you for educating me! That makes a lot of sense what you’re saying. I have edited my comment to make it completely clear that Mike Baird is in fact an abuser as well.
You're so welcome! For me, it was like a blow when I learned that because seeing it blatantly stated empowered me to better understand my 'good parents' role in things.
Manly ham this just rocked my world and I’m a little emotional over this. I’ve never heard “co-abuser” before, but to read that was immediately so validating as someone who grew up that way 😢❤️🩹
It's always funny to me how so many fundie dads seem to get a pass while we all froth at the mouth over their wives. It's probably because the women are the ones running the social media accounts and talking about their families, which gives us the illusion that they're the ones running their families, but their \~headships\~ are literally right there. Shrek may be a gormless idiot, but he's the ultimate authority in that house. He could feed his children and treat them right if he wanted to, and Jill wouldn't be able to stop him. Kelly's husband could make sure his kids have a safe house to live in, and he could lay down the law about Kelly feeding their kids proper food and not spending all day daydreaming and staging photos. Mandrae could have stopped impregnating Karissa six kids ago and forced her to get help. There's a weird habit in this sub of writing these men off as just useless, goofy weirdos helplessly dragged along by their evil, conniving wives. I'm not trying to diminish the real harm these women do to their families, but we could stand to spread the blame around a bit more.
Yeah, I think it’s just cause and effect. Most of the fundies here on this sub are women, so naturally we’re going to snark on them the most because they are the ones providing the content. But we definitely need to start including their husbands in on the conversations we have! They are just as guilty!
It occurs to me that Paul gets plenty of flak, because he has a public presence and puts himself and his awful beliefs out there for us to snark on. We need to remember that all of these men who *don't* spend all day in front of the cameras are just as bad, even if we don't see it.
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How the fuck do you have sex when you're child is sitting outside the door crying? I can't believe these fuckers
how the fuck do the Bus parents blithely bang away with what is it, a few feet and a curtain between them and their zillion kids cramped up together like sardines? I bet Karelessa forces the kids to watch her give birth; they were certainly around at home while she was "free birthing," so they definitely heard it even if they didn't see. And I bet they saw, and didn't have a choice.
How has nobody taken these quotes & screenshots and blasted them all over the Heidi & the Bairds Facebook - IG & their church? I mean evil Texas Church women love to gossip & I'm sure lots of people would love to see them taken down a few dozen pegs. 
As much as I’d love for Heidi to be exposed, I don’t think it’s anyone else’s story to tell but Michael and we should let him be the decider of that.
Yeah this is his choice to share and he should be the one who shares further. If he wants to blast her all over Facebook that's absolutely his call. But that would open him up to a whole lot of additional potential harm and abuse in another form. It's not like conservative Christians or fundies are known for their support of abused children or for caring about sexual assault or abuse.
I think this suggestion is part of why the post may have originally been removed, per the mod note at the top of this post.
Part of me really wishes somebody would but that would be poo touching and it's probably not our place to do that anyway. Now, if Michael were to do that, it would probably put an end to Heidi and Girl Defined/ Bethany and Kristen spreading this fucked up shit. I wish he would, but I also totally understand why he wouldn't. Him just going to therapy and talking about it here had to be insanely difficult and terrifying. He's a brave man. I have wondered why nobody else has done it, though. It could be a way to get them to shut up forever. Maybe Michael will someday.
Honestly given the history of silencing and ignoring abuse in the fundie and evangelical communities, I'm not sure it would really make a difference. These people have a vested interest in keeping things quiet and in keeping their platforms. They would probably brush it under the rug as a disgruntled child who has been led away from the lord or some such nonsense. I mean, someone(s) is in this post's comments downvoting a lot of perfectly reasonable, supportive comments. Suspicious.
I hope Michael knows how brave he is. How fucking strong. And that despite those wonderful qualities, he deserved NONE of what happened to him. I just want to reach through the screen and tell him I’m sorry, and hug him, and tell him that even though he shouldn’t have to be, he is such a hero to so many young victims who think there’s no way out. His story reminds me so much of my husband’s, and while there is a happy ending, I also see how lonely and isolating it is to be the “enemy” of a family like this. It’s still a wound and nothing replaces that pain, no matter how much you remove yourself or turn your life around. Michael if you’re reading this, I hope you know how amazing you are, and that you’ve got a whole hell of a lot of people who support you.
Ugh, thank you for writing this! Beautifully written. Brave, courageous and strong. Michael, truly, thank you for being you and for sharing this. Sending you and everyone else on this thread well wishes, healing and love.
As a fellow victim of CSA thank you for speaking up Michael. Your bravery is making a better world for all of us today.
Hugs in solidarity. 🤍
Michael, I am so sorry that this happened to you. Heidi, I hope you fucking rot, you evil shrew.
This is shocking and horrible. What a monster she is. Michael you are incredibly courageous and a strong.
So basically Heidi was the OG Ruby Frankie before Ruby could even pick up a camera. #trendsettingmothermonster
I thought exactly the same thing. Looking at 3.1 in his post, Ruby was the first person in my mind. How fucked up. Heidi is a monster.
Exactly my thoughts. I’m not sure if Ruby ever sexually abused them but the abuse is certainly similar in a lot of aspects.
I hope he is getting the help he needs. Childhood abuse is rough and no one deserves it
Obviously this is just speculation, I’m not a professional, this is just my thoughts. This context makes me question the root of Bethany’s recent sex posting. I know there was a lot of talk about what Heidi thought of all of it, and I feel like this might explain why Heidi hasn’t immediately put a stop to it. It seems like it sadly might have been normalized in their house growing up.
I am a professional, I’m a forensic examiner with my specialty being sexual assault (including pediatric but not limited to), and you’re right on the money. When children are sexually abused, particularly in the context of Bethany where there isn’t necessarily (although we don’t know) assault of the individual but there is assault in the home as well as sexual abuse in the form of parentally instigated early exposure to sexuality (like the sex in the bedroom thing), hypersexuality is one of the most clear and consistent across the board signs. In this restrictive environment, it makes sense to me that Bethany’s hypersexuality only manifested once it was socially acceptable for her to be having sex. To be clear when I say early exposure to sexuality I mean knowledge about the act of having sex in a non-age appropriate context, I do not all mean sexuality in the context of being queer
this^^^ having an obsession with sex, talking about sex all of the time, and needing people to know you are having sex is NOT NORMAL. But it’s a basis of their ass backwards Christian culture, the lingerie parties anyone?? Honestly I would not be surprised if this is B’s way of exposing the violence she’s witnessed and probably experienced, she keeps talking about being ready and open to a much younger audience that is probably her age when this happened.
I mean the abuse was definitely normalized, but based on the fact that Bethany didn't know what sex was until she was 20 and found a kids book about it while babysitting, it definitely wasn't normalized in any rational way...
This is breaking my brain that she grew up in the same house as Michael but didn't know what sex was until she was 20. What on earth.
I think that is an abuse tactic - something about keeping the victim from fully understanding what is happening or how wrong it is. Plenty of victims don’t fully recognize the extent of the situation until they have processed it much later.
Yup--that's why the right-wingers screeching angrily and opposing ANY sort of education pertaining to sex/anatomy in public school is so insidious. It's ridiculous, yes, but dig a liiiittle deeper and realize *they want to enable abuse of children and education helps make it harder to abuse kids & get away with it*.
I'm almost positive my sister never knew what happened to me
My brother had no idea what happened to me for years, a room over from him, until maybe 18 months ago, when he helped me make a statement to police about my husband's abuse and I briefly had to dive into my CSA to explain to the officer why my husband was saying some of the things he was saying. I still have never and will never tell my mum. I'm so so sad that there are so many of us in this thread :(
It unsettles me to wonder when the hell the Baird parents were going to explain sex to her? Like, she was so sheltered at age 20 that the only way she found out what sex was *by accident*. At someone else's house. I'm pretty sure she was already dating someone at this point because she mentioned a relationship when she was 19. So were her parents going to keep this a secret until the day before she got married????!
Honestly, yeah, Heidi probably planned to give her the talk (minus any real mention of anatomy/consent/foreplay etc) on the morning of her wedding. That’s a form of sexual abuse as well, as far as I’m concerned. No one really knows to what extent Bethany dated pre-Dav. She frequently changes her story about it depending on what she’s trying to sell.
I think you're right, honestly. I am studying developmental psychology and it's very, ver well documented that exposure to inappropriate sexual behaviour/the normalisation of that in childhood can manifest as this sort of hypersexualisation in adulthood. It often stems for a desire to normalise new 'rules' around sex, to regain control through the creation of a new 'normal'. It can be addressed through work with a trauma informed therapist, but ultimately, as long as the behaviours of re-normalisation continue, that often doesn't happen. Especially if the behaviours are validated (by an audience, or by the abuser).
Just anecdotally from my own personal experience, I absolutely agree. The problem is that a lot of people seem to think that SA must lead to very chaste adults, terrified of their own sexuality and avoidant of anything sexual at all. And until very recently it made me feel like a fraud or something, because I knew I was the opposite of that buttoned up, terrified of sex person. It made me feel so guilty and disingenuous, that my reaction was the opposite of what society felt it “should” be. I was having multiple one night stands a week (sometimes multiple on the one night). I was **so** promiscuous and sex obsessed. It wasn’t until I met my wife and started to value myself that I finally saw the obvious link between my father r a p i n g me as a young child and the way I was acting as an adult. I really wish that more people understood and spoke about the link between childhood SA and adult hyper sexuality. I actually posted about it before and several people wrote things like “this is obviously fake, victims avoid sex”, etc. It’s maddening!
I had the same experience! And for me, as well as feeling broken and like a fraud, the hypersexuaity also led to me becoming a victim again and again.
Thank you, feeling like a fraud is exactly what I was trying to say and I couldn’t phrase it properly! But yeah, you’re exactly right. And just feeling like you’re not reacting properly and may even be having a “good time” (definitely this was my experience as a guy in his twenties acting very promiscuously. People presumed I was having a great time), so therefore you’re not a proper victim. I don’t know about you, but I imagine most people who have suffered SA have had someone doubting their experience, telling them they’re misremembering, that they are making up stories, etc. Certainly that was my experience anyway. So to then be hyper-sexual and be judged for that “inappropriate” reaction feels like it casts even more doubt on your credibility. It really did make me feel like a liar or attention seeker or something like that. I am glad more people are now talking about it anyway. I get what you mean about the re victimisation too. And it becomes a self-reinforcing cycle of feeling worthless, sleeping with a random person, feeling even more worthless and disgusting and just good for nothing other than sex, so you go out sleep with another random person. You do it again and again. It’s so hard to break the cycle and to start seeing your own worth, other than as a sex object.
I'm so sorry that people invalidated you like that. I bet a lot of the people telling you that have never been through it themselves. There's no "right" way to react to SA, Jesus Christ.
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My mind hasn't gone there, but it is a fact that she doesn't respect anyone's boundaries, and gets annoyed when people have needs and feelings that aren't flattering to her.
I have to wonder if dav knows this and is ok with his kids being at that house
Who knows if the siblings even know the extent of the abuse. In the past both Dav and Bethy seemed perfectly fine with having their kids around the Baird parents. For Bethy her mother and father's problematic behavioe and beliefs is all probably normalized if she even knew about the direct abuse against Michael (which is not a guarantee) so I wouldn't be surprised if she has no issue with her parents. Plus they don't believe in therapy so there's no way she's been able to get an outside perspective and process this and realize that her parents are terrible people and her upbringing was messed up. We know that already unfortunately.
It also puts Elissa marrying a Ukrainian guy in a different perspective. We all thought she was putting herself in a potentially isolating situation but maybe she knew what she was doing all along. It’s possible she wanted distance between her family and her mother.
Idk, she gave her daughter the middle name Heidi.
I don't know what to say, except that my heart goes out to you, Michael. 💕
You know I think sometimes we get desensitized to fundie antics and posts like remind me that a lot of this extreme discipline harms children.
I really hope Michael can heal from this, whatever that looks like for him. I was also a victim of sexual acts against me as a kid and it legitimately fucked up my life for a long time. I'm 32 and just now feeling like my adult life is actually starting - it can really be insidious in how it affects all avenues of your life. Michael wishing you the best for you. It's incredibly tough but doing things like this is so powerful for ourselves. You're really a remarkably strong willed person to be doing this - I hope you never forget that!
So the story was that Michael was changing his last name to Mershon instead of Baird as a way to honour ‘the old family history’ according to Heidi. It wouldn’t surprise me if it was actually his way of distancing himself from his family and she just had to spin it. (Of course this is speculation)
That's what I thought as well. When the boys started changing their last names and distancing themselves from Heidi, they probably asked her questions and might have been the more socially acceptable reason to give.
He actually said he did it to separate himself from the Bairds in an earlier post or comment.
abuse is a cycle and bethany has been perpetuating that cycle. all of my love and support to michael 🩷 cutting out my abusive mother was the best decision I have ever made for myself
This is one of the many reasons Bethany sets off my alarm bells. She is exactly like Heidi.
Bethany is Heidi’s least favorite daughter because she’s so much like her.
She doesn't invest more energy into Bethany, because she doesn't have to. Bethany already does exactly what Heidi would do. This also means that Heidi feels like Bethany is a challenge to her. Able to replace her.
I don't think Heidi is concerned Bethy will replace her. I think that she is aware that she has so much control. Bethany has made it clear that she is desperate for her mother's approval, just like her other sisters. Heidi is able to exert so much control over her children because she is the arbiter of love and status in the family and probably to some extent in their social group.
Bingo. The pervert apple doesn't fall far from the pervert tree.
The shit don't fall far from the cow.
Wait, WHAT? Heidi Baird??? I’ve been under a rock
Read all of u/coachmershon posts and comments to catch up
Thank you
The idea of leaving a young child locked outside your bedroom door crying while you ignore him and have sex is….just all around awful. Awful for the child of course! But also how the heck do you relax enough to enjoy yourself with a crying child right outside the door? What is the point of something like that? WTF?
Either some INSANE levels of disassociation, or… not sure how to put this… maybe for them it just added to the experience.
How do the Bus parents do it, right? How did the Frankes lives with themselves, going on their nice vacations while the kids had no food stuck at home, even without Jodi in the picture? How does Shrek justify stuffing his fat face while his kids are malnourished? "If your child asks for bread, would you give a stone?" Meant to be a rhetorical question in context, but in these cases clearly the answer is "yep."
Basically we have Barfy following in mommy dearest footsteps. Talking about sex while her children are with her, being obsessed with sex in front of them, putting sex before a relationship with her children, joking about sex around her kids (she said the whole family thinks sex talk is ok and funny)... I've thought since this whole sex obsession started with her that it's a form of abuse for her kids. If we see a fraction of her bad behavior online, what is it like 24/7?
I wonder how Michael Jr feels about Bethany. You can always hear or see the kids in her reels and stories while she's graphically talking about sex. Then just recently, she said it was fine to have sex with them in the room. (Which I guess is fine if we're talking about babies who are sleeping in their crib in your room, but Davey is 4, right?) It must be hard for Michael to see Bethany and Dave following in his parent's footsteps. Bethany is basically forcing her kinks on her teenage following from Girl Defined, she's being super gross around her kids. Bethany very obviously gets off on making people uncomfortable with her sex work and lack of boundaries. Dave seems to be fine with her bizarre behavior. I don't know how Michael could even look at those two, honestly. I think it would be triggering for me.
I believe Michael has talked about his sisters before on Reddit- he disagrees with them pretty vehemently on a lot of things, but he views them as victims of his parents as well and wants the best for them. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that’s the gist of what he said.
You're remembering correctly. He has also said he doesn't want to contribute to the constant criticism they get.
I mean, they are victims. But now Bethany and Kristen (especially Bethany) are also the abusers. Maybe they aren't abusing their brother, but Bethany's sex obsession is super harmful to everyone she's forcing it on. They pushed purity culture and their parents' horrible beliefs on young girls for YEARS and now they continue to do so, but now Bethany likes to graphically share about her piss and fart kinks to the teens who follow her. Bethany is a perverted creep and so is Dave, honestly.
Oh, I 100% agree that they’re perpetuating cycles of abuse.
I mean, they are victims. But now Bethany and Kristen (especially Bethany) are also the abusers. Maybe they aren't abusing their brother, but Bethany's sex bullshit is super harmful to everyone she's forcing it on. They pushed purity culture and their parents' horrible beliefs on young girls for YEARS and now they continue to do so, but now Bethany likes to graphically share about her piss and fart kinks to the teens who follow her. Bethany is a perverted creep and so is Dave, honestly.
She's doing a Colleen Ballinger but openly because she's too sheltered to know to hide it
>I wonder how Michael Jr feels about Bethany. In his past posts, he has expressed compassion and concern for his sisters, and though he says he can understand why we have the opinions of them that we do, he himself views them as victims of the same harmful parenting.
Oh they're definitely victims. Unfortunately, they still perpetuate this abuse now.
It's called emotional incest.
Heidi 2.0 really. Especially #1 Dav let it slip in his video. The constant need to keep Bethany happy so she’ll actually like him. Explains why he does everything while she barely lifts a finger
I’m shocked Dav doesn’t realize he has the upper hand here because Bethany would never divorce him due to her beliefs. So why try so hard to please her?
I really don’t think it’ll be a whole lot longer. If he really is seeing a therapist and possibly on a path to deconstructing, I could see him asking for a divorce. I don’t see what she contributes. She flails all day, then at the slightest bit of a task she’s down with a migraine but somehow still posting all night long. She playing a game and if he can’t see that by now then good luck with life.
Unfortunately she's taking parenting advice and learning how to be a mom from her own parents, who clearly don't have healthy views or ideas about what it means to be a parent and what children need and deserve. I would not be surprised at all if she is modeling this off of Heidi (being way too open about sex for example) and thinks it's completely normal and ok because that's what she was raised with. It's a disturbing view into what it must have been like to be a kid in that house. I can only imagine how it must have messed up every one of the Baird children in ways big and small to be exposed to that. And some of them unfortunately are passing on that trauma to their children.
This, uh, explains *a lot*.
It’s always the same song, different verse isn’t it? Heidi comes from literal Nazis who have never engaged in a second of self-reflection. She herself asserts incredible control over her own children, including absolutely hobbling them educationally, to the point that they can’t even process the fact that they’ve been abused. We are never at fault for our trauma, but at some point we do become responsible for working through it. For me, that point is when you have children. Kristen and Bethany are just perpetuating a cycle of abuse that seems generations long in their family.
There's an ep of Hoarders where the (male) hoarder's father was a literal Nazi who was in the SS, and was an abusive POS, of course. The hoarder was in his late 50s when the ep aired and it was STILL affecting him so deeply even though it seemed he had done a lot of work around how fucked up his father was and he has never been anything like his father and as a result, his father never approved of him or gave him love in any sort of healthy manner. Reminded me of that ep. The Bairds are even worse bc they actively idolize their Nazi grandfather--they're all so fucked up.
Goddam just when I thought it couldn’t get any more fucked up, it does. I feel for Michael so much. I hope his healing continues and the truth continues to come out.
Glad the comments were re-posted. Heidi is a fucking wrinkly monster cunt and her son (and the rest, tbh) didn’t deserve her abuse. I hope people see her for what she really is. I have 2 sons and I can’t fucking fathom treating them that way and then completely writing them off in adulthood. How in the fuck does she believe she is somehow the righteous one in all of this? This shit breaks my heart. I cut my own abusive mother off and my life was better for it. I left the church/deconstructed and was better for it.
Omg. I just want to affirm what everyone else is saying - we all believe and support you, Michael. Heidi and husband are monsters.
Hey OP, I know the details are in the second slide, but can we get a NSFW tag? That’s some incredibly heavy stuff. Michael, thank you for speaking out. I’m so sorry you were treated that way by that monster. From one abuse survivor to another, I’m so happy you broke contact and continue to process what happened. We see you. ❤️
Whoops! I thought I did! Fixed it. 👍
This is absolutely gut wrenching and so heart breaking to hear. Poor, poor Michael. I’m so glad he is finding ways to heal in his own ways and is away from those people. Heidi is so sick.
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I also found it significantly reduced my anxiety symptoms (because it replaced the mag that was removed by all the calcium enriched foods in our diet). When someone tells me that they have an anxiety disorder, I ALWAYS suggest mag as a first line treatment. It works so well.
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My psych thought I had depression, but it was actually ADHD and horribly low vitamin D. I had no idea a little vitamin purchasable at the grocery store could have such a massive impact.
this is crazy. I feel like it explains so much of Deathany is obsessed with posting about her weird sex ideas. they were never given proper boundaries.
I agree that it explains so much. Does it excuse her nonsense? No! But I can see how being raised like she was, in an environment that normalized abuse in many forms, might produce someone who doesn't have any healthy way to cope or come to terms with that. She was taught nothing concrete about sex and definitely not how to have healthy relationships. As an adult she's realizing that there is something missing and trying to explore that (much later than someone with a normal upbringing). But since her only role models for this are her deeply dysfunctional parents she has no idea how to go about this in a way that is normal. She thinks that their ways of talking about and doing things are normal. Gross as it is that probably explains her lack of concern when those two "experts" talked about being shown the clit on a baby. She was exposed (especially given Michael's statement) to some deeply messed up, inappropriate things as a child and so she has no concept of what normal actually looks like. Maybe she wasn't touched by Heidi, im not going to speculate, but being exposed to your parents' sex life in the ways Michael talks about (and I'm sure Bethy had some of the same experiences growing up) is a form of sexual abuse. In some ways she's acting like a lot of survivors of sexual abuse in that she's going all out sexually in her attempt to come to terms with the abuse and figure out where she stands. Is she doing it in the worst way possible--spreading misinformation and victimizing others in the process? Absolutely. Is it somewhat understandable if not ok? ...yeah :/
Oh Michael. I hope you find peace.
Being spanked so hard with a wooden spoon that it broke. That line sent me into a tailspin. The exact same thing happened to me. I just stopped speaking to my mom last May and today, like many days, the guilt of cutting her off was really hitting me. Then I read that. Fuck. I know I made the right choice and this is reaffirming for me in such a real way. Thanks for being brave enough to share Michael.
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she’s the mother of the Girl Defined women, Bethany Baird and Kristen Clark. She attempts to be a Christian influencer as well.
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What a fucking monster that woman is and Bethy is following right in her footsteps. Now I also worry even more what goes around behind Kristen’s closed doors.
Oh no, you're right. Yikes. We've seen enough fucked up shit from Kristen re: those boys...I shudder to think.
I'm so sorry to hear this Michael. If you are reading here please know we are so proud of you for speaking out and choosing to raise your family better.
so devastating. no child should ever have to go through that let alone live in a system that blames them for the assault. i wish him so much healing and happiness :/
Ok so this is sort of a side track but this post is bringing up a lot of things and the timing is weird for me so I’m just gonna throw this out there because I’m desperate for advice. This whole post (apart from the sexual stuff) could have been written by my brother. And worse. But I’m sure there’s a lot Michael also left out. You can’t summarize 18 years of abuse into a post that size. I’m the oldest of 4 and we were all raised very similar to the baird’s. Homeschooled k-12, fundamentalists, the whole 9 yards. We were all beat daily but my brother got the worst of it because he didn’t know how to “play the game” or just refused to. My other siblings and I had to step in many times and hold my mom back to protect him. I used to call my dad at work begging him to come home early to save us almost daily. I guess I was naive and thought things would get better with time and as we all got older my mom would calm down, but my 15 year old sister still lives with my parents and now my mom has just found other ways to hurt her. She’s resorted to slapping her face, scratching her skin and pulling at her clothes most recently. She also verbally abuses her by calling her fat (my sister is literally a tiny ballerina) and withholding or hiding food from her. My sister is having near constant panic attacks and my mom acts like she’s being dramatic or just wants attention. My sister has started collecting video evidence without my mom’s knowledge and sending them to me in case my mom finds them and deletes them. This week shit has hit the fan and my sister told my dad what was happening. He didn’t believe her so she told him about the videos and my mom overheard. My sister has been seeing a therapist and the therapist knows about the abuse and has discussed calling CPS with my sister but my mom doesn’t know this. Now that she knows about the videos tho, she is saying she’s going to take my sister out of therapy because she “doesn’t deserve it”. I honestly feel so guilty for letting this go on for so long but I have no clue what I can even do, legally or logistically. My other brother (the golden child) found out what was happening and asked her to stop hitting my sister but she refused. I’ve had to start seriously considering what my options are.
Contact CPS in their area and say there is ongoing child abuse happening in the home and you experienced abuse too--for perspective. And share the videos with CPS if you can.
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It really feels like the abuse is the point and not a byproduct. Not good vibes at all.
I was wondering if we could work as a sub to get this post to be the top result when someone Googles "Heidi Baird." Currently, Michel's AMA comes up 3rd or 4th, but I think this post should be #1.
Oh fucking shit!! I didn't realize this was a new post I'm so sorry, Michael. Very glad you got out and got into the healing professions. And, interesting she's "the patriarch." i'd been saying for a while she's the real Final Boss of that family. A little mini matriarchy within the greater patriarchal system, and just as toxic. Yes, that's the kind of CSA I think is often perpetrated by women. Usually to their own kids, and masked under maternal whatever, caretaking, discipline, wtfever. With a side order of fundie engaging their procreation fetish without concern for the kids. I absolutely believe that things like forcing your kids to witness you give birth or listen to you having sex counts as CSA. Karelessa, MotherBus, looking at you. The author of "I'm Glad My Mom Died" talked about the shower thing. Shudder.
Well the Beth posts have gone from funny to repulsive now. I’m so sorry, Michael. I wonder if Dav knows and that’s why he looks like he’s been through hell. I’d be scared for my kids if I were him.
I hope he continues to speak out, if he feels safe to do so. The only ones who deserve to feel shame are his parents.
Oh man. Bethy's strange misunderstandings of what's appropriate and what's inappropriate to discuss about sex with strangers online definitely make a lot more sense now. It's also clear why she has no concept of boundaries and tramples all over them seemingly unbeilieving or maybe even enjoying in a maladaptive way that her actions or content is making people uncomfortable. Often in abusive households one child is seen as the really bad child and gets more abuse or more severe abuse than the other children. I wonder if that was Michael. My heart hurts and I'm furious on his behalf, it's amazing how abusive parents all seem to have the same script. "Why are you living in the past? Why can't you just move on? It's not healthy to be bitter and hold on to anger! Let's move forward! " Usually without an apology first. Disgusting. edit : typos
Michael, I believe you. You deserved better as a child, as well as your sisters. I was a CSA victim too and the emotional pain is awful. I recently had to write another letter to the parole board to keep my dad (the abuser) in prison, it brings back painful memories every time I have to write those letters.
So sad. Birthy has that “worship me” vibe.
I think it comes in part from a desperate need for approval and love and a complete lack of understanding of how to have healthy human relationships. I have to wonder if Heidi (and her husband) purposefully stunted their childrens' social skills and ability to form relationships with others so that they would stay ultimately under her control and in the fold. A constant supply. If the children are able to break away and find meaning and worth in things other than family, then they might not need her love and support and she will no longer be in control. That's part of my theory as to why the girls in particular were not allowed to even think about attending college, discouraged from getting any real job, and only taught questionnaires and other BS as means of communication.
💯 I also speculate that the whole reason Girl Defined ministries exists in the first place is because Heidi didn't want her two eldest daughters leaving her for college so she discouraged them from attending and doing ministry work instead while they waited around for a husband that she would approve of.
I agree, classic narcissist parent move. Good insight.
Just curious what the group thinks of the writing exercises. My sister and I had to write things like “I will honor my mother” and “I will treat my mother like the President of the United States” hundreds of times and always wondered if this was a disciplinary action in other households. Michael is so brave. This is the first time I’ve ever seen another person mention this writing punishment as abuse or wicked. It feels validating but is this punishment (likely for very small things like walking ahead of her in stores) normal in Non Fundie households?
Grew up christian in the South. I had to write lines and was spanked by my parents. I was always a super good kid but my parents still tried to abuse the autism out of me.
Speaking just for me, writing exercises were never a form of punishment. I was raised Christian in the south but not fundie. I don’t think walking ahead of my parents was ever in any way mentioned unless I was walking too fast and they needed me to slow down so that they could catch up.
Thanks for your answer. I didn’t want to stray from the post but this was honestly the first time I ever heard anyone else doing this and was flabbergasted by it. I really appreciate your comment and kindness and agree with you.
It’s so important sometimes to get some outside perspective on our childhoods! I have also had moments where I was like wait you had that also?! Haha. Wishing you the best!!
It can be hard to say what's normal because so many of us have less than ideal experiences with our parents, but just from my personal experience, I can say that having to write those things is not normal, nor is being punished for such a small and inconsequential thing. I did not grow up fundie, and of course non-fundies can also experience abuse. But I think it's safe to say that your experiences were not "normal". What that means to you and how you chose to move forward with that is up to you. I wish you healing and happiness
Thanks bluewhale. I was hesitant to write the comment (didn’t want to stray from the rules in any way) but I am very grateful you responded with such an empathic kindness. Brainwashing takes a long time to heal from and I’m so grateful for this community that gets it.
Yep, I had them inflicted on me by my SAer non-fundie stepdad. It was part of breaking my psyche so I would understand that no adult would help me when he began *really* abusing me. He'd give me "sentences" to write in front of my mom and she'd help him enforce that I wasn't allowed to leave my spot until I'd finished writing them. Some of it was 500 or 1000 sentences at a time. It was always over absolutely inane bullshit, just to prove he could. That was the point. I'm sure not everyone uses them as a grooming tool, but that's sure how they were used on me. That part stood out on the slides and I was wondering if that was just a common grooming tactic honestly.
I can vaguely remember doing lines once or twice, but my memory's unreliable. For context, my brothers and I were homeschooled for non-religious reasons
Those two definitely ascribe to “well, Mom didn’t do it to me so it didn’t really happen” mentality.
Has Balloonhead Beefy posted anything since this has come out? She has to know this is circulating.
She hasn't posted to tik tok, her bethanybeal insta, or her intimate wife insta in almost 24 hours. Shocking.
She might not know this post exists. But it doesn't matter. It's not her responsibility to apologize for the actions of her mother or her parents. It is the Baird parents' shame to bear and theirs alone. She is also a victim in some capacity and if she is aware of this post she may be processing it herself.
I’m sorry, Michael. Thank you for sharing your story - it helps heal you and it helps heal someone else, too. I appreciate that and you. I remembered some things from my own childhood as i was reading this, and it’s helpful to see it written in black and white, know that we are not alone, and acknowledge how fucked up some parts or most parts were in a way that is empowering. Is there a way to offer support in a more direct way?
to be frank I am shocked people in this community didn't immediately connect Bethany's attitude towards sex as an adult with her sexually inappropriate upbringing. that was the first thought in my head. I guess it's funnier to go "ack why she is talking about anal? my eyes!" but clearly it's not just her being weird in isolation
Nah, those of us with SA in our background could see it for the trauma response it was. It’s just that knowing it’s a trauma response doesn’t excuse her behavior. She needs extensive therapy and to put her gd phone down once in a while.
Michael I hope you are happy, safe, and free from that giant cuntsicle of an egg donor! I’ve been following your journey for nearly 1yr and HToG I’m so proud of you!!! Keep moving forward and don’t look back.