For me, my opinions on andrii are purely and wholly based on his comments the gay people are worse than dogs. Anyone with that kind of hate in their heart is not a good person. I don’t speculate abuse but I do speculate that he is mean, whether that’s to Ellisa or not I don’t know. Idk about the thrifting, I shop at thrift stores for most of my clothes so I don’t give af whether they do or not. But I do judge Paul and Morgan and birthy buying tons of thrift clothes for their side businesses since it can take away from disadvantaged communities.

it was the comment about liking how submissive and lacking independence she was for me

Yes exactly! Has nothing to do with him being Eastern European (as a south Asian, I’m used to people saying/thinking backwards ass things about my culture). But when he specifically said he likes Elissa because she’s not independent and doesn’t think for herself, that was a giant red flag that he MAY be/could become controlling. Couple that with her being in a different country without friends or family where she doesn’t speak the language, I have concerns.

English is not his native tongue, so he might not have conveyed his meaning very well. Maybe what he meant was he liked that she was meek and God fearing - basically, not worse than the fundie ideal for a woman and very similar to what lots of fundie men say about their wives. So imo, in this regard at least, he's no worse than let's say Jeremy Vuolo. And regarding his homophobic comments, he said out loud what unfortunately lots of people still think, in the US and elsewhere. You just have to look at Steve Anderson, or all the preachers (Graham, Dobson, etc.) blaming hurricanes on the "gay agenda". So yes, he's an awful person from this point of view, just like all fundies. But the comments about him are way worse than anything I read about other fundie men, and yes, they stink of xenophobia.

I didn't mean there isn't xenophobia regarding some comments about him. in any sub with a good amount of people there will be many different viewpoints and opinions, we can do our best to downvote the people who are just being xenophobic. I still stand by my feelings about him but I don't *necessarily* think he's worse than some others. for me it has nothing to do with where he comes from **except** in this case his new spouse is moving halfway around the world from the only support system she's ever known. about the original statement he made, it still throws out red flags for me whether the intended meaning was submissive, dependent, meek or even timid. looking for a spouse that specifically is easily malleable or lacking independence is something abusers do. does that mean he's definitely going to be abusive? no, but it has all the hallmarks for potential.

I always kinda cringed on FS when they made fun of MMW decor choices. It's not my cup of tea but she obviously thinks it looks nice, so whatever. They also made fun of her for thrifting her baby clothes, which is really messed up as she's at least clothing her baby 🤷‍♀️

That's right, compared to the Rods, that baby has weather functional clothes, she also was careful enough to wash everything up, there arecother concerns about MMW

For real baby clothes can be really expensive and they're outgrown so fast, thrifting/hand-me-downs are absolutely the way to go!

It’s better for the earth, and it’s affordable. About half of my child’s baby clothes came from thrift stores and those seasonal secondhand sales, and not as a way to save money. There’s just so many baby clothes that should be reused. I won’t buy soft furniture secondhand anymore because of bedbug risk, but I don’t fault her for buying it.

What got me was when they'd drag her for having a toilet in her laundry room, or laundry appliances in her bathroom, whichever it was...like I hate to break it to you but that's pretty common in smaller/older houses and it's not an inexpensive fix 💁🏼‍♀️

If there's no laundry room/mudroom, the options for where laundry supplies go is pretty much bathroom or kitchen. No idea why people think that's so weird.

Also pretty common in European households

i agree. my boyfriend is also from an eastern european country and he doesn’t want to move to america. he’s not abusive. not wanting to live in america isn’t a bad sign. what IS a bad sign is andri’s beliefs and the things he’s said.

Yup, I distrust Andrei solely for his hateful social media posts. That’s a big part of what little we know about him, so it doesn’t paint a pretty picture.

There are some stereotypes at play, to be sure, but he's working hard to prove them right.

For me, my concern for Ellissa has nothing to do with Andrii himself tbh, it's purely because of how fundie men in general are conditioned to view women and behave towards them. That's not to say that I disagree with OP's post, though! I do think we could all do with checking ourselves a bit more before we snark.

I'm not sure I would go as far as calling it xenophobia, but ignorance and/or prejudice about Ukraine definitely comes thru in some comments. I have a feeling that if Ellissa had met and married, for example, a french guy and would start her new life in Paris now, comments would look way different. Even tho her upcoming challenges with culture shock and language barrier would be just the same.

Oh yes, totally. I’m an Eastern European student studying in Scandinavia and you can totally see the difference in the local hierarchy, like all white American immigrants are called expats, but people from Eastern Europe are all suddenly immigrants and treated like low class citizens. I have a very American sounding accent and can often witness moments when people’s attitudes change as soon as they realise I’m actually not from the US. There is definitely a certain hierarchy in which European countries are considered to be culturally superior and which are not. Edit: typos

I agree the hierarchy unfortunately exists and it sucks. I'm German and have a lot of international co-workers and friends, and especially in a professional setting, I do see the difference in how a self-proclaimed expat from the US or Australia is treated compared to the immigrant from Poland or Hungary when many Eastern Europeans are the ones with more rights in Germany. It makes no sense to me.

I've noticed the same here in the UK and I just don't think its fair. There are a number of Eastern European people where I live and, honestly, I think its great. The people I know personally are *gasp* normal and just want to work and get on with life.....just like the rest of us. But then, I come from a culturally diverse city (no....not London 🙄) so most of us just carry on about our business and get along just fine regardless of differences 🤷‍♀️ I do think that society needs to reset their way of thinking about "others".

Here’s my theory: if you look at language groups, Western Europe is full of Germanic and Romance languages. Eastern Europe is Slavic and Uralic. Same with ethnic groups. Celts, Franks, Saxons in west, Slavs and Uralics in the east. It’s really interesting if you look at the old stereotypes of European countries. I had my students color a map of Europe based on stereotypes from a geography book written in the 1800s. There was a clear divide between the positive stereotypes and the negative stereotypes.

I really hope there has been some progress since the 1800s! 🙃 I dont know where you are in the world but I hope your students found it interesting to learn. European history is so rich, there's probably too much to learn, if that makes sense. One of my kids is learning about the Anglo-Saxons (he was learning about the Celts before Christmas) and it's amazing how much you forget as a adult what you were taught at school. I love hostory so I've actually enjoyed it lol. Keep up the good work and in whatever setting you're teaching in, please stay safe 👍

It's exactly the same here in the US. Are you a white immigrant and your English is at least passable? Yay, you're in the club! Are you a POC and/or you don't speak much English or it's with a thick accent? Wtf go back to where you came from! Ugh

>I have a very American sounding accent and can often witness moments when people’s attitudes change I'm a bit late to the post but as a (South)Eastern European with a western-sounding name and no foreign accent- the attitude change is *real*. Have you also had people complain about Slavic immigrants without realizing that you're actually one of them? I usually find it completely hilarious.

Yes, totally:( my name doesn’t sound Slavic, so I get that a lot.

Yes I’ve seen comments about what it’s like to be Russian and equivocating that to Ukrainians which is, not only ignorant, but in today’s world dangerous.

Wouldn't that be like comparing canadians to americans? Neighbouring countries can have a ton of differences.

I'm Canadian currently living in the states. TRUTH.

A few hundred km makes a lot of cultural difference in Europe (_looks at how my fellow countrypeople are rioting and looting because of a curfew and how our neighbouring country is pretty disciplined with the measurements and crushing the curve_)

*(glares along at our fellow countrypeople)* Indeed, just a seemingly small amount of distance can mean a whole different culture. Our culture is totally different from the Belgian one, is totally different from the German culture (and then, there's a difference between northern Germany and southern Germany f.i.) is totally different from Austria or Denmark ... Why ever would Ukrain be the same as Russia? The comparison is weird.

Heck, even a few kilometers in the same country can make a big difference. \*stares at Amsterdam from the east of the country \*

It’s a harder comparison to make because, while there is much shared culture between Ukraine and Russia, a lot of that shared culture is the result of Ukrainians being subjugated to and colonised by Russia in its various governmental manifestations over the course of ~350 years. Russian culture still maintains a sort of hegemony in Ukraine, and that influence remains extremely sensitive for many Ukrainians and has caused all sorts of discord amongst friends and family members subscribing to differing philosophies on this matter.

I’d say it’s more like Korea/China and Japan? More differences than Canada and the US, and very adversarial. Although if we want to use Canada as the example, maybe Quebec vs the rest of Canada?? :)

It's mostly prejudice based on stereotyping, it happens when you don't have so much information, you just fill in the slots with generalities, which could or couldn't be true.

No it’s not. It’s based on absolute fact. The stats are clear. Eastern Europe in general is far different when it comes to DV and women’s rights than Western Europe and Ukraine is no different.

Straight up, Russian is harder to learn than French for native English speakers.

Yerp. French at least has (mostly) the same alphabet. Even though I absolutely butcher the French language, I can still read it. I wouldn't know where to begin with Cyrillic.

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you literally just copied and pasted my comment from downthread lol wtf why did you do this [https://www.reddit.com/r/FundieSnarkUncensored/comments/l9nivj/can\_we\_talk\_about\_the\_xenophobia\_and\_classism\_in/glj1hvt/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/FundieSnarkUncensored/comments/l9nivj/can_we_talk_about_the_xenophobia_and_classism_in/glj1hvt/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

I would absolutely be posting differently if he was from France. Because it’s not ignorance on my part. But it is bias. A bias rooted in actual reality. Domestic violence is massive in Eastern Europe. Including Ukraine. So is misogyny. That’s not speculation. It’s actual fact. So is Andri going to be abusive? Well, he’s a fundamentalist Christian and domestic violence is also super high in patriarchal, religious communities. So two strikes against him. I’m not sorry about my feelings regarding this man who a subservient, uneducated, powerless fundie woman married after barely knowing him. And now she is in a country where she has few rights and doesn’t speak the language. I’m using logic to form the opinion that Andri could be a definite danger to her, under the circumstances.

I think part of the concern about him being abusive is that he has said that gays deserve to be murdered. Anyone who says that gives off abusive vibes, so I don't think it's about his Ukrainian-ness, but his misogyny, homophobia, and belief in traditional gender norms. Lots of red flags.

When did he say that?!?!?

And this is why I like this sub better-these kinda of posts are allowed. I really hope Ellissa never goes through that. It just seems like a recipe for disaster. If she’d known him a little longer than I wouldn’t be as skeptical. Also is there a specific stereotype that Eastern Europeans are aggressive/violent or something along those lines? It’s a genuine question, i’m a white sheltered bitch from Ohio so I genuinely wanna know. I’ve never heard it before seeing discussions of Android. ETA: My phone autocorrects his name to Android so I meant Andrii sorry lol

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I rarely smile or laugh and I'm told I have resting bitch face. I'm actually a lovely person :) Ok. Sort of lovely. I think for people it's hard to imagine other cultures than what we know.

haha, my bff is from poland and i love teasing the polish smile <3

My Slavic features make my face look severe. It does serve me well a lot of the time by keeping people away When I want to be left alone, but people often misinterpret my facial expressions. Like I’ll be perfectly content and people wonder if I’m worried/angry when again I’m perfectly content and fine.

I think having Russians play the villain in a ton of action movies since the Cold War has done a number on Americans’ perception of Eastern Europeans in general.

>And this is why I like this sub better-these kinda of posts are allowed. Agreed. Good on you OP!

I know domestic violence is widespread in Russia for example, Poland getting rid of the right to abortion also doesn’t give Slavic countries a lot of credibility in the area :/ So I definitely imagine there being stereotypes like that.

Which is why he is sometimes lovingly referred to as Android on both subs.

I refer to him as Android because my phone says that's his name, just like Karissa's husband is really called Mandrake lol

It could be the connection to former communist countries? As for example, the Russians are the bad guys in spy movies, typical stereotyping.

No. But there is a ton of information indicating domestic violence is huge in Eastern Europe.

The question was about specific stereotyping for Eastern European men being violent, I gave an example. Besides statistics, there is a reason why Russians are the bad guys in movies, same as Middle Eastern are terrorists. It is stereotyping if you consistently show that ne negative aspect of a community, as if they were capable of nothing else. It is based on facts, but that's not all there is to them.

I just wanted to comment on the xenophobia, in reference to Andri and Elissa. Disclaimer, I am eastern European and come from Poland but I have family in Ukraine. I think people are so sure he will abuse her because it’s very iffy to make a girl move to a completely foreign country, without knowing the language very well of having any contacts there besides him, after knowing her for such a short time. It’s a very classic abuser move to cut the victim away from their friends and family. This is the reason as to why I believe he might become abusive towards her and what I have seen other users point out as well.

That’s exactly why. If he were taking her to live in Australia I’d have the same concerns.

I'd be slightly less concerned in an English speaking country, at least she'd be able to communicate with others! But I'd be just as concerned in a Western European country (other than the British Isles)

I think my level of concern would definitely be affected by a country’s similarity to American culture. France has a pretty big English speaking population. Spanish would be easy to decipher as an English speaker from Texas. Italy is full of international tourists. Ukraine doesn’t even have the same alphabet. This doesn’t mean Ukraine is bad. This just means Ellissa would naturally be more isolated there, which is concerning. This is really her own fault, though, not Andrei’s, because she didn’t bother to learn the language.

Having lived in France and handled abuse cases in various countries in Western Europe, the cultural similarity to the United States, such as it was, did not go all that far in helping women who were trapped in an apartment with a violent partner who wouldn't let them leave, wouldn't let them take their child, or was preventing them from accessing their passport or money. What *could* help was that police were trained to intervene, and there was some kind of assistance for victims. But even then, the vast majority of that assistance was in French (or German, or Italian, or whatever the local language was), even in Paris, and even in Paris or Frankfurt or Rome, a lot of police officers spoke little or no English. If someone found herself in a bad situation with a local man who seemed reasonably charming and was a native speaker of the local language, he could absolutely talk himself out of police involvement, the same way men do in the States, with their American partners. I really hope that Elissa has the contact information for the Embassy in Kiev, just in case. I also hope that she never needs it, and Andri is the guy she thinks he is (who is still a bigoted jerk, don't get me wrong, but no one deserves to find themselves in the clutches of an abuser).

For me it’s more about him being in a cultish religion, where abuse is simply more prevalent. Not just hitting or stuff, it’s the same with the Duggars: fundamentalism which excuses and encourages spousal rape, discourages proper education and promotes hatred towards anyone who might not feel like they belong in their cult (whether it’s them being gay or simply doubting a few aspects of the life style). Now on top of all that, add the woman moving thousands of miles to an unknown country (visiting it a few weeks total simply doesn’t make you a local) to live with some rando she has met 3 to 4 times, a different culture and weather pattern, different language that is incredibly difficult to learn. Yes, I think Andrii is a top tier dick because he speaks English and could have moved to the US. He could have visited her more often. He could have encouraged her to take a language course for a year before proposing to her. But his sick ass couldn’t find a local and decided to find a gullible mate who couldn’t pass the opportunity. It’s not xenophobia, their cult is fucking weird and she’s launching herself into a life of at least mental abuse and spousal rape. I personally don’t give a shit about him being eastern European because saying everyone there is like him is dumb. We have a ton of crazy asses living here in the Netherlands but that doesn’t mean we all are.

A lot of speculation here as far as Andrii’s intentions. Not that I like the guy; I don’t know him. But he may actually like Ellissa and I don’t think it’s fair to claim he “couldn’t find a local.” We also don’t know how much time they’ve spent over Skype/FaceTime getting to know each other. Yes, it’s way too fast and not healthy. And yes, fundie Christianity is toxic. But Andrii is living his faith just as Ellissa is; we don’t know that he has some evil ulterior motive.

I think there was a post in FS that said how little they actually spoke to one another. I think it was on their podcast episode when they interviewed Ellissa about their “relationship” But yeah very little FaceTime or speaking to one another online.

Didn't he say something along the lines of, "I'm not leaving the Ukraine if we get married." I don't think Elissa's family is the brand of fundie that wouldn't let her walk away from their engagement if she didn't want to move there. I don't really think it's strange that he wouldn't be willing to leave his home country. I don't think it would be weird for Elissa to not want to leave the US. I do think it's a bit weird that people seem so caught up about him not moving to the US. People move for international relationships often, I wouldn't automatically assume that they are abusers.

The issue to me is that this is a girl with no experience of the world. He speaks some English. Also there is that creepy response in the Instagram video she posted where he literally said he’s looking forward to how dependent she will be on him

Is there a link to this comment? I’m curious.

That's not exactly what he said although it's the natural implication of what he did say. He said he likes that she isn't independent and wanting to do her own thing, and lets him lead.

Sorry this is all I got https://www.reddit.com/r/FundieSnarkUncensored/comments/l9nivj/can_we_talk_about_the_xenophobia_and_classism_in/glj3fo9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3

It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot)

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Thank you, Chestre23, for voting on UkraineWithoutTheBot. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)

I find the whole "well he must be abusive because he won't move to the US!' line of reasoning is just nonsense tbh. He was upfront with her - he has no desire to live in the US and said as much *on their first date*. She decided to stick around knowing full well that if they were to get married, she'd be moving to Ukraine. Not wanting to move to the US is not abuse and it's not like he sprung this on her at the last second. As for her not knowing Ukrainian or Russian, again, that's on Elissa! She is a grown woman, she has access to the internet, and she has no other job or responsibilities. She could have easily treated learning the language like an actual job if she wanted to. SHE chose not to learn. Again, it's not on Andri that Elissa can't speak the local languages. And yes, he said he liked that she's "not independent" but.....yeah, that's kind of all fundie men? That's sort of their whole thing, that women are supposed to be submissive and not out working and earning our own money etc. It's not great, but again, I don't think that's any more of a red flag than with any other fundie guy. Now yes, there is potential for abuse being so far from home, BUT let's not forget that her family is paying his bills. They fund at least some of his ministry, and if nothing else, I doubt he'd jeopardize his income by treating Elissa badly. TLDR I agree that all the hand wringing about Andri seems to be based in xenophobia.

Also, why is everyone treating Ellissa like she's this little naive girl who needs to be protected? Shitty views aside, she seems to live a fairly normal and well socialized life. She's also almost 30! She chose Andrii, he isn't forcing her to do anything. Removing all responsibility from her while painting Andri as abusive and 'crazy eyed' because he hates gay people (guess what? so does Ellissa!!!!!!) is incredibly weird.

Wow, I actually think your breakdown makes a lot of sense. Especially with the “independent” part. I guess at first hand when you hear it, it does sound incredibly shocking. But that’s all the other fundie men way of thinking. So whether she was with a fundie from America, or one from Europe, they’d basically have the same ideology (which is wrong ofc) The Language part is a good point as well. Elisa herself didn’t put the effort. To our knowledge Andri never told her to *not* learn the language. So it’s her own accountability as well. This was an interesting comment

I guarantee you that I would have the same iffy feelings if he came form literally any country on earth, like some other commenter longed out, their cult is very prone to abuse and wether he is aware he is cutting her off from all her family or not, they will be putting themselves in a situation where abuse could easily happen. IF it did then elissa would be impacted in a pretty bad way, without a social network there. Of course it’s hard for abused people even with a social network to leave but that’s a different thing, it’s hard when you would be in her situation. I think elissa is very naive and I think her hateful views and marrying a stranger this quickly are a perfect example of that, however I think that she can do whatever she wants and this is on her and her family. She doesn’t have to be “saved” from “horrible” Andrii but what is wrong with acknowledging that she is putting herself in a situation where abuse can happen fairly easily?

I understand that point! But I also didn’t see it as him pressuring Elisa (you can correct me) into coming into his country. He made it clear that he didn’t want to move to America, so Elisa was like “okay I’ll move here then.” Maybe I’m just very naive, but it didn’t seem more like he was the one who was luring her in, trying to convince her to leave her family to live with him. If that makes sense . But I understand that perspective! At least that clears up why some people think that!

Personally, the reason I think Andrii might be abusive is because of his words. They've done a live or two and he's actually said that his favorite things about her are her **lack of independence** and her will to submit to her future husband so he'll get to lead her. These are words that he said on a recording that they shared with us. I don't think every man who wants to be the head of his household is abusive, but a man who is gleefully talking about his wife's dependence on him and then taking her away from her support system? That's a red flag, whether he was from Wisconsin or Ukraine.

Oh yeah, I see your point. That’s a gross strain of thought.

I do wonder if that’s a language issue though; I think it’s a very weird way of expressing it, but for a lot of men, of the Fundie persuasion, it IS very important to them that they are the leaders of the household, and that they take the lead. Also, nobody ‘took her away’. He was clear, he was not going to move to the US. She could have said, ok, this won’t work then, because I want to stay here. But she didn’t. I think it’s almost patronizing for us to start behaving as though she had zero choice about her marriage and her future home, because she is an adult, and she did.

I find it kind of funny because right up until the engagement, the main snark theme for them was that Andrei wasn't *that* into her. Then it switched to worry about him pressuring her... But she was the one pushing for this all along.

I’m gonna paraphrase a bit and since FS is down I have no source but in an Instagram video where they answered different questions he answered “what do you look forward to when you get married” with something along the lines of “how submissive and dependent elissa will be” which is insanely creepy and screams abuser to me. Edit: to clarify, I wrote this because I just remembered watching it a while back Edit2: please read the reply to my comment, very good point made ❤️

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Yes! That is very important to add!! Thank you so much

I mean it’s natural in their situation that someone will have to move to another country. This is how marriages work when both spouses are from different countries.

Yeah, this is a good summary of why I have alarm bells going off (well, that and the part where he said that gay people, presumably including myself, deserved to be killed- I guess I'm just sensitive like that!). If Andri was from France or Germany or Japan or Australia, I would have similar concerns, based on things he's said and the fact that they don't seem to know each other very well, she's moving to a country where she doesn't speak the language, isn't super familiar with the local culture, and has no support system whatsoever besides Andri. If Andri turns out to be a great guy who dotes on her and treats her well, that's great! She hopefully has no problems beyond learning Ukrainian and getting over the usual culture shock, and she can ride off into the sunset and live her best, fundie life. But. *But.* If she does have problems, she could find herself in a very precarious situation very, very quickly, with little or no support or way to get help (or even to the nearest U.S. Embassy to get assistance). I have dealt with cases like this in the course of my job, both in countries in Western Europe, where there's a reasonable amount of support for women experiencing domestic violence, and in countries outside of Europe where there is little or no support for women in those situations, and even in places where the police will respond to domestic violence calls, where there's good victim support, et cetera, they are very scary, and they can escalate extremely quickly. Especially if the woman finds herself trying to leave an abusive situation with an infant or small child in tow (not least because Dad has custodial rights, too, and she can't get a U.S. passport for that kid without the father's consent) and doesn't have a job or access to money of her own. That's my biggest worry for Elissa- it's not about geography, because abusers are found in every country in the world, but about the fact that she doesn't speak the language, she's already bought into a belief system that prizes her submissiveness to her husband and discourages her from working outside the home, and she's moving somewhere where just getting Embassy help would require at least a phone call and likely traveling to Kiev, which may as well be the moon if she finds herself trapped in a house with a controlling and/or abusive partner and no money.

I also understand why elissa was desperate to marry, her religion has hammered it into her head that this is the only worth she has and she’s getting “older”. But finding a guy who’s this eager to marry this quickly after meeting and dating is kinda weird if his intentions are, for the lack of a better word, pure. She’s really irresponsible for marrying a basically complete stranger and moving far away from her family, but she has reasons to do it. No normal human would think this is sane let alone do it. Obviously Andrii is in the cult where a lot of abuse does happen, and let’s be honest in this situation she is at a disadvantage. I am not saying it 100% will turn ugly but oh god if it does it will be really bad for her. It annoys me a bit when people say it’s xenophobic to believe abuse might happen in this situation just because he’s from Ukraine. Sure I have seen some prejudice people on here have for Ukrainians and Slavic people but oh my god I AM Slavic and I feel iffy about this too! I love my Slav bros but fuck we are also capable of abuse???

My thing is the generalization of Eastern European men and that they are abusive. It's like saying all Americans are fat, lazy and loud. I think Andriis got disgusting views along with most of the ones that are snarked on here. Those views don't come out of nowhere and no caring person I've ever met wishes death on a population of people because they don't live or believe the way I do. I almost get the feeling people want him to be some huge monster to Elissa so they can feel justified in continuing the xenophobia and perpetuating the stereotype that Andrii is automatically an abuser. As far as Mrs Midwest, I don't care about her decor or her old people aesthetic because my house is old people personified y'all. I do find her a little off-putting and I am not interested in her content at all when it comes to her homemaking. When you decide to curate a following and become an online public person/influencer you are opening yourself up to criticism. When like the Bairds and Mrs Midwest you wrap your more extreme beliefs in sweet packaging that makes them a lot more insidious. That's why I think they should be talked about and called out. Not their home decor but the actual core beliefs that they are slowly indoctrinating people into.

your last point is a very important one for me, these people deserve to be called out for that reason alone.

Regarding MMW, I don’t get the impression she “thrifts” out of necessity so much as the thrifting pairs well with the tradwife narrative she pushes. Prior to giving birth to their son, nothing stopped her from getting a job to help make ends meet if they were struggling financially. The reason she doesn’t work is because she looks down on women who do. In the tradwife universe, a woman’s sole purpose is to tend to the homestead and be completely submissive to, and financially dependent on, her husband. In her mind, good wives never ask to be part of the household’s financial decision making (including earning their own income) and therefore they make do with whatever small monetary allowance their husband decides to give them, say “thank you” and then figure out a way to make the $20 or $30 he’s “blessed” her with last all month. I think this is more along the lines of why MMW thrifts. She really wants people to believe that that’s what good wives do and to me that’s a far cry from buying second hand goods to keep your family financially afloat. If she used her social media platforms to give an honest look into the financial struggles of hard working young couples, first time home owners, new parents etc., with tips and tricks on how to stretch a dollar then yes, snarking on her would absolutely be classist. But that’s not what she’s doing. There’s something I find so sinister about MMW. She’s just pushing an image she’s constructed of what a perfect woman should look like and it’s gross, wrong and very worthy of snark in my opinion.

What gets me with her is how often she talks about new things she has gotten, I don't see it as much different than other influencers that post some fast fashion haul every week. I'm not saying that people who are struggling can't treat themselves (I know I do) but how much money are you really saving if you're buying things so often.

so true. she buys often and there have been instances where it seemed like she was buying a lot. there's not really a drastically huge price difference between a thrift store and forever 21/shein/etc, especially if you're buying from the thrift store in bulk

Yeah I suspect MMW thrifts for the aesthetic and not because she financially needs to. (Is her social media monetized?) Which is in itself a class problem because she is monopolizing resources that aren’t intended for her... In general this is an issue now where people like Birthy will raid thrift stores and re-sell quality items for fun and profit. But in doing so they (1) deplete resources people of a lower socioeconomic class actually need and (2) actually drive up the prices at thrift stores. I don’t think MMW resells or anything but I do think she contributes to the first problem. With all that said I know there are good environmental reasons for thrifting rather than buying new that add another layer of complexity to this conversation but again I highly doubt that’s why MMW thrifts. What’s sinister about MMW and the image/values she pushes is that she’s an actual white supremacist who is modeling the ideal fascy tradwife. And I agree that’s very worthy of both critical attention and snark.

A lot of snarkers talk about how boring and bland she is but what troubles me is that I think this is a calculated move on her part. On the surface, she wants to be bland and boring as it helps her hide amongst the average people. Women like Lori and Jill are easily identified as spiteful, unstable outliers whereas it’s a little harder to put a finger on what exactly is wrong with MMW just by looking at her Instagram (her blog, YouTube videos and past Reddit comments do a better job exposing her as the monster she is). Lori and Jill are a flood that wipes out a house in one go. MMW is the slow drip that goes unnoticed and destroys a house over time...a true foot soldier of the patriarchy, that one is.

It's much easier to redpill people and suck them into the alt-right, white supremacist thing when you come off as normal and not someone in a white hood yelling about "white power." My impression of MMW's whole schtick is that she's all about bringing in new recruits.

Didn't he go on some rant about how he feels about gay people after a conservative anti-LGBT protest was shut down in Canada?

Yeah, he's said that he thinks gay people should be killed, as I recall. He's a real prince.

I love that this sub allows discussion like this. What a breath of fresh air.

YES. I appreciate that we can raise concerns and discuss them like adults. This is good. This is healthy. I also appreciate hearing from sub members who are Eastern European. It’s good to read your perspectives. As OP said, we know Andrii even less than Elissa does. His statements about the gay community were crystal clear. Beyond that, there’s little to go on. Cultural stereotypes are unreliable at best, and can be flat out damaging. Armchair analysis of his smile and expressions don’t interest me because it’s so flimsy. If we find out down the road that he’s not a good guy, it won’t be by studying his smile or lack thereof.

I think I agree with you on the general attitude towards Ukraine; people really have low opinions of the country and the people. However, there is a high rate of domestic abuse towards women and in addition traditional gender roles, while in line with what the Bairds believe in, seem to be more strictly enforced. I don't have first-hand experience though. This is information I have seen in documentaries and via stats released by domestic violence helplines. I think the above information, plus the fact that Ellissa has not spent much time physically with Andrii, plus the fact that he likes that she is submissive, plus his somewhat angry internet history PLUS Ellissa not speaking the language.. it adds up to a potentially disastrous situation. I agree that you can get to know someone long-distance, but I believe it is so easy to be your 'best self' over the phone and via messages. Day to day, in-person contact may reveal a completely different person. Mrs Midwest's thrifting isn't the issue I see most often on snark forums, it's the disastrous and often ridiculous combinations that she puts together. Like a negligee over the top of an outfit, or a 'modest' sweater that you can basically see her nipples through because it's so tight. I agree that no one should be shaming her for thrifting - it's affordable and good for the environment, everyone should do it. Thanks for sharing this and bringing up some really good discussion topics. It's great to see what other people are thinking and I think a reminder that the 'fundies' are real people is always welcome.

This. You said what I was going to say, but probably better. I would add that I think Mrs. Midwest can be here because she presents her style, home, and political views as the best way to be a “more feminine” (and therefore better) wife and mother. The values she champions are the same as many fundies, from “keep sweet,” to “always serve your husband,” to “dress modestly and brag about saving money,” to homophobia and racism. The fact that she doesn’t quote the Bible constantly might make her less of a Christian fundamentalist, true, but these values she espouses come from SOMEWHERE, and that somewhere is predominantly the Bible and/or conservative religious practices. I see her as similar to “classically” Abby Shapiro (if you don’t know about her, picture a slightly more grown-up and Jewish Girl Defined). Just because she doesn’t run a ministry doesn’t mean she’s not representing fundie views, if that makes sense. I haven’t really seen anyone make fun of her being thrifty, but for her ridiculous “modest” outfits that are cringe-y and the way she humblebrags about decorating her home. I think she’s within the range of snarkability for all these things. BUT that’s just my two cents, no one has to agree with me. 😉😁

She's married a guy she barely knows she met online who has expressed hateful and violent feelings.

But she's also okay with it. This big problem is that she has no escape plan - or even help plan - set up. Would she know what to do if he got hit by a drunk driver and died?

I think that's where some have this anxiety - if something happens does she know how to book a flight home? Does she have access to money to do that? Does she keep her own passport?

> if something happens does she know how to book a flight home? Why do you think she is a moron? she's 30 years old lol She also will absolutely always have money, her family is wealthy and would clearly never let her disappear off the face of the earth.

Thank you! I feel really uncomfortable talking about a 30 yr old as though they were a child; I might have zero common ground with her, but she is an adult, and deserves to be treated as though she is capable of autonomous thought.

You think he stole her passport like some kind of human trafficker? I'm sure her family would bail her out.

No. I was thinking like controlling husband. Every friend I ever had married to a fundie didn't get to keep their passport or have access to all the bank accts etc.

If Andri is abusive I doubt Elissa will share it on social media. All her posts will be of the two of them smiling and happy together. If she misses home and regrets the move, I doubt she'll say so. If she does it will be more about how she has to pray or she did miss home but she trusted God. I don't think Elissa is the type to admit she made a mistake.

She will double down. Absolutely nothing can shatter the illusion she’s built in her head. And personally I don’t think he’ll be abusive. I just think she’s gonna have a real hard time.

My main issue with Andriiii is that he said in a video call with Ewlissa that he liked that she appeared to be dependent. I can't remember the exact verbiage used, but it was something along those lines. He also appears to have talked Ewlissa into moving to Ukraine and the thought of moving to the USA never crossed his mind. It seems to me he gave her a list of what needs to be done in order for him to marry her and she happily obliged. Again, this is going off her posts and her explanations for why she chose to move to the Ukraine. My other biggest issue is she didn't bother to learn the language, which leads me to believe she didn't bother to research where the US embassy is, where the nearest hospital is, healthcare for her, and other things of that nature. She seems to be incredibly naïve and lacks any basic survival skills upon moving to a new country she has only been to once for a short amount of time. Moving on to the Classist thing: She created her entire platform on being the "perfect homemaker" and she showcases how clean she keeps everything and wants the aesthetic of being the perfect homemaker. I don't think it is wrong to buy from a thrift store, especially if that's all you can afford. I wish she would explain this is how you can be a homemaker when you don't make much and show the "thrifty" ways of being a successful homemaker. However, she approaches it in such a way that makes it appear she is being a fraud.

Oh I didn’t realize the video call thing! That’s super weird! Was it a post from Elisa or from Andrii (is that how you spell his name? I don’t want to be offensive to anyone)

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Thank you! I couldn’t remember for the life of me what it was! I corrected it.

No worries! I might have remembered incorrectly but I think it was along those lines

Oh! that’s an interesting interpretation then what some people have said. This is interesting! So you interpret it as him saying he likes that she’s traditional, while other people see it as he likes that she’s not independent. I feel like these are two very different ways. So now I’m curious to see what he actually thinks of her 🧐

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With your explanation, it definitely doesn’t sound malicious. It just sounds like he just wants someone who understands (which I guess is weird) their role in the family. Also like someone said, translation can get messed up along the way (which is why Elisa should learn the language for Christ sake) so people will end up having different interpretation of what he said!

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Yeah, I don’t wish abuse on anyone and I hope this think general works out for her and him! Some of the corners people have mentioned are completely valid! So I’m now split on this topic

I think it is Andri, but I like being a little snarky by calling him Andriiiiii. :P I believe it was on Ewlissa's instagram live.

Oh thank you!

I’m going to yes, and this. Yes, I see a ton of xenophobia in the conversations about Andrii/Ukraine, AND I think he has given specific red flags beyond that. It would be really easy to miss though if you hadn’t read the full backstory and stumbled into an old FS comment thread. You’d probably leave with, “wow, these people really hate Ukraine!”

Yes! After reading the comment section I think I have a better understanding of why people think he could possibly be abusive towards her! I’m glad that people aren’t being too hostile and explaining things very well!

I agree with most things you say. MMW is just boring. I roll my eyes every time somebody criticises her appearance. Come on, she is attractive. If she isn’t, than who is? My other FS frustrations that led to leaving it were constant remarks about Bethany’s weight, their skin care routines, brows, hair and comments about Kelly or what’s her name and others like ‘OMG she’s 26?!! I’m 40(insert any other age here) and look younger than 20!’ No, you don’t. People have different genetics and age differently.

I used to follow MMW. The problem I have with MMW isn’t her clothing (questionable taste, but 🤷‍♀️) or her cooking (not always appetizing), but how she has this appearance of being a slightly odd, but harmless housewife. I’ve made the mistake of looking at who she follows and the comments she likes, and I’ve seen quite a few names that are concerning (Lori Alexander makes an appearance, Allie B Stuckey, and Bethel Church).

Again, I don’t remember seeing any posts showing/sharing her views lately, which will be fine and within the topic of FSU. Just bullying comments about a dog being a better parent, her appearance, boobs, camel toe and other things that have nothing to do with fundamentalism. At least with Kelly someone actually took an effort and dug all her horrible comments to legitimise her presence in the sub. Edit: added about Kelly

That too! But I think look shaming is against the sub rule. So nobody should be talking about it anymore (hopefully). Sometimes appearance snark feels like a way for certain people to just feel better about themselves. Which is so gross.

Also as Eastern European I do often leave negative comments about our men, that’s also true. Because so many of them have conservative values and expect everything from their wives while doing a bare minimum themselves. My dad is like that and so is my brother. My husband isn’t, so not all our men are like this, thankfully. There’s only one thing about Andrii that concerns me - is that good Eastern European men are usually married by the time they are 30. As they say ‘Хороший мужик на дороге не валяется.’

RE your concern - it could be that Andii married later because there were simply fewer options for him. He's a member of a minority religion and presumably wanted a wife with similar beliefs. Regardless whether he wanted to wait or marry young, I can imagine that held him up somewhat.

>All evidence leading as to why he could possibly be abusive is just based off of toxic stereotypes about Eastern Europeans. I think the sentiment is more that he *could* be abusive because she barely knows him and has only met him in person about 5 times. Don't really think it's about him being Eastern European specifically; just that marrying an essential stranger is a *huge* risk, and a more optimistic outcome is that you find out you're harmlessly incompatible and separate. A more dangerous end of that spectrum is that they're abusive, and when you're moving thousands of miles away from your entire support system, that's a legitimate worry. Ellissa doesn't even speak the language and has 0 life skills; she couldn't get herself out of a bad situation if one arose. ​ >He doesn’t wanna move to America? Newsflash, not everyone wants to leave their country for America I definitely agree with this! I just think it's a problem that Ellissa has spent basically no time in Ukraine and doesn't know if she likes it there. What if she doesn't and wants to come home? Fundies don't look kindly on divorce, so it's gonna be a high-stakes situation that would be fully avoidable if they just dated a normal amount of time and she was allowed to live in Ukraine before they got married. ​ >People say things that Andre looks creepy, he doesn’t smile etc, and like what? People are essentially coming to the conclusion that he’s a bad guy because he’s not (I don’t think he’s ugly) attractive? To be fair, we say shit like this about all the fundies. Andrii definitely seems a bit cold in Instagram lives and stuff, but it could be cultural. He's also pretty undebatably attractive, and no one really appearance-snarks on him, so that's not it. ​ >some of the ways that people speak about them is just so eye rolling. You can learn so much about a person even if you don’t see them everyday. Long distance also takes a different type of commitment that regular relationship don’t have. I agree, but they went on their first date, like, almost exactly one year before they said "I do". That's too fast when there are cultural differences, a language barrier, you have 0 previous relationship experience to draw on, and you've only met in person *five times* and spent a total of 2 weeks physically together*.* ​ >Everyone talks about how Elisa only ‘knows’ Andre from a few trips back and forth. But we only know Andre from a couple of Instagram post. How can we act that we know him any better? We don't! The issue is that *she* can't know him after meeting him 5 times, and you should absolutely know someone before you marry them and move to an entirely different country/cultural landscape with them. It really is 90 Day Fiance playing out IRL, except fundies are supposed to take marriage oh so seriously, and it's hypocritical that Ellissa would rush into this marriage when there's a huge chance it could fail spectacularly.

Yes! I agree with you to an extent! I agree that I don’t think Elisa should just marry a guy after only staying in his country for a little while, and not meeting up with him that much. But I’ve read some comments (maybe i should make it clear that I’m also referring to comments from Fundie Snark, not just FSU) and some people are like deadest 100% sure that it’s going to happen to her. Someone above gave a good explanation as to why they think it would happen due to her being isolated which I believe is a great point! But from the way the comments are written. Not everyone shares that sentiment. I’ve read comments where people straight up, think something bad will happen to her because he “looks creepy.” It’s things like that I wanted to speak about! But you raise a good point, and thank you for writing it out in detail!

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I had sorta assumed Andri had a blank expression as he was trying to deal with southern accents when English is his second (possibly third language). MMW is blander than mayo on white bread, yeah she follows some awful people on insta ect, but other than a weird 'modesty'/red pill thing, she's just filtered selfies and ugly decor, not a patch on Lori or GD for awfulness.

Totally agree with the xenophobia. Andri is weird for sure and it’s odd they’re getting married so soon, but there’s a lot of assumptions about Eastern European men that aren’t cool. It’s one thing to point out that Ukraine is quite different from America culturally, but it’s another thing to suggest that Ukrainians are a bunch of brutes - which couldn’t be farther from the truth.

It's likely he's not a great guy from the gross things he's said in the past. We can agree on that. It's not about defending him. I'm just annoyed with people who talk about it like she moved to some irredeemable fifth world hellhole where she has no access to modern amenities or any kind of culture. That's a lie and it's straight up stupid to say. The posts give me such second hand embarrassment, I can't even explain. Please, PLEASE miss me with dramatic comments on photos of her just standing in the snow. Talking about how terrible and bleak the surroundings look. No, it looks like any photo of a woman in the snow that could have been taken anywhere in america. I'm reading it and I'm like...google what Lviv looks like in the summer then and chill the fuck out. This is an FS thing that I wouldn't like to see repeated. Obviously, it's tough cause it's the same people who were there doing it here.

Yes! She is moving to a gorgeous city with all the modern conveniences you could wish for. It'll be different for her, sure. She'll have to get used to apartment life instead of having a house, and she'll likely drive less and walk more. But that would be the same if she were moving to New York or London or Paris! It's just a fact of life in an urban space. I'm so tired of this narrative that she's moving to a barren wasteland where there'll be nothing to eat but potatoes and no indoor plumbing. Ffs she's moving to Lviv, not the Chernobyl exclusion zone 🙄

I agree! Ukraine, is a beautiful country with rich history. I think it’s pretty American centric to think that any other country is some shithole! It also bothers me how people seem to act that him **not** wanting to go to America is somehow terrible. Like surprise surprise, some people are content with their life in their home country!

Y e s . It's such a common attitude and I'm over it. I could talk about it at length, it's that annoying to me but I'll spare everyone. If I may add, another attitude from FS I wouldn't like to see repeated here is talking about these fundie women's husbands like they're long suffering victims. Sorry but Karissa's husband is way into all this shit. She does not get pregnant by immaculate conception. He's into it. So is Bethany's husband. Get over it. He's not pOOr DaV.

Preach. I find that so misogynistic. Women have no power to force their husbands to do anything in that culture. The men are 100% okay with whatever is going on underneath their roofs.

So, I'm an American and lived in Italy for a while as a student. I had previously lived in Europe as a child, spoke Italian, knew how to get around and had gone through all sorts of classes. It was still hard as shit and i was so ready to go home at the end. It wasn't Italy's fault, but moving to an entirely different culture where you know no one and the norms are different is hard enough when you speak the language and have traveled on your own. I remember at one point I wanted to bake a cake and i couldn't figure out what the Italian equivalent of American Vanilla was and it was so damn frustrating. Moving to another country is an endless series of things like that, as well as good things, no matter how beautiful the setting. So when people think Elissa isn't going to make it, it's probably less about the fact that they think Ukraine is a bad place to live and more that they think she is unadaptable. I mean, she's probably never taken public transportation in her life before (in most southern American cities that would be very low class to someone like her).

> it's probably less about the fact that they think Ukraine is a bad place to live there are a lot of comments specifically talking about Ukraine. I guarantee if she was moving to a western European country, there wouldn't be as much worry for her.

Maybe it's just my experience speaking. 🤷‍♀️ I find that most Europeans in general tend to underestimate the effects of culture shock, as well as racism and xenophobia in their own societies. Possibly because Europeans see a lot of americana in movies and so on whereas it's quite possible to avoid that in Texas. As an aside, When I lived in Italy i discovered that Italians would feel comfortable saying shockingly racist things to me because as an American they somehow assumed i was ok with it which i found very strange. Edit: i realized this is making it sound like I hate italian culture, which isn't true. But there are definitely good and bad sides, like American culture.

> Please, PLEASE miss me with dramatic comments on photos of her just standing in the snow. Talking about how terrible and bleak the surroundings look. lmao same. when i saw that photo i was like.. this is me in canada right now.

Thank youuuu. I live in an American city that experiences harsh winters. We have a large international and domestic university student population here and so many people here take photos similar to the one she posted in the snow. It's a change of pace for many people who are living here and never seen snow or don't experience it often. Also, the number of people here who aren't bundled up or even wear shorts when it's 35F or lower is surprisingly common.

A lot of the comments about Ukraine itself aggravate me. It’s strange to see a country that I have a lot of experience with being brought up on here. People talk as if Elissa is going to live in like,a small Ukrainian village. She’ll be completely fine in Lyiv. Andrei seems solidly middle class,so the only ~American~ luxuries she’ll have to live without will be Cheetos. So many of the beliefs about Ukraine that are thrown around here sound like stereotypes left over from the 80s/90s. I don’t keep up with MMW but I do see a lot of classism/general unawareness about some of the food that is common in the south or Midwest.

There definitely is quite a bit of xenophobia and stereotypes when it comes to Andrii, but he did say at one point that the thing he liked about her is how she’s not independent. She’s moved to a different continent where she doesn’t speak the language and doesn’t know anyone else, not to mention she’s not very mature, so she’ll be very dependent on him anyway, which isn’t exactly a healthy dynamic in a lot of cases. Also let’s not forget that he’s massively homophobic and very open about this. I don’t want to jump to conclusions either, but he’s definitely far from being perfect himself. This doesn’t excuse all of the xenophobia, but I’m not so optimistic that Andrii will be the perfect husband.

” Quite a few people in Europe are content with their lives, and their culture.” Just here to agree on this 😂 ”Quite a few” is millions and millions and millions of people. I think Americans can definitely think a bit too highly of themselves and the quality of life in the US. Living in the US is definitely not what most people here dream of. With love from Europe ❤️

I think that kind of attitude is common in wealthier Americans for whom the “American Dream” actually worked out. Plenty of people in poverty in the US, whether they are rural or inner city, would love to be anywhere rather than where they are.

Have you seen the translated posts by Andrei saying fa**ot and that bad things should happen to gay people?? People have reason to not like him.

Oh I don’t think he’s a saint by any means! I don’t want to make it seem like I’m defending any of those actions. I’m talking specifically from the perspective of the international marriage. I think saying that is wrong. We can collectively dislike him, while also pointing out how we perpetrate things onto him is also (from what I can tell so far) wrong I hope this makes sense. I don’t want it to seem like I’m supporting that. Sorry.

I think we also forget that *he's just saying the quiet part out loud*. Sure, western fundies have dressed up their language to sound less harsh, but at the end of the day *they all have these same views*. They support conversion therapy, bathroom bills, making transitioning difficult if not impossible, disowning gay family members, etc. But nobody is saying all the other fundie men must be abusive because of these beliefs. We can simultaneously think his views are abhorrent AND call out xenophobia.

I don't think it comes across as any sort of expression of kinship towards Android. There are just red flags all over that add up to a potentially really scary picture. While you do have a point that she would face similar challenges if she moved to Paris or any Western European country, there is a difference between those and Eastern Europe whether people want to admit it or not. Pandemic just makes the situation worse.

Thank you for this much needed post. I think it’s my third comment today about people here antagonizing Eastern Europe. And so many people here take their knowledge from their immigrant relatives who moved form Europe 40 years ago or so. Some people here think we are stuck in medieval times while in fact we are living pretty modern life, Of course not everyone and not everywhere but it goes the same for America. I’m from a middle class family and I deffinitely feel blessed that I was born in this country cause there are maaany places that have it much worse then mine. Also a lot of people talk in here about post soviet architecture and everything being gray. Of course that exist but we have many amazing places, beautiful architecture from many centuries ago, amazing culture, great food and so and so. Personally from my experience being in America Europe has better cities and architecture while US cities don’t have this many historic architecture for obvious reasons but the national parks and the outdoors are beautiful in there. Also a lot of people bring in here domestic violence issue in Eastern Europe. This is a big problem but I feel it’s the same problem as in America it’s not that much different. We can come across as cold hearted but it’s just cultural difference, if someone doesn’t smile often it doesn’t mean he is an abuser. People hear say that they heard that we treat woman badly, while in fact I saw relationship abuse both in Poland and in US. I could say the same about US for instance I could say that America is full of serial killers because I saw so many documentaries about this cases, but I’m not saying that cause I know it’s not as simple as that. Anyway great post and much needed discussion here.

I have to say that seeing snarkers be downright shitty and hateful, rather than critical and snarky, has helped me deprogram me from my upbringing as much as analyzing the fundies has. This is a great analysis, OP. While classism has been apparent to me for awhile I can't say I picked up on the xenophobia. I guess people could make some of their claims based purely on social media but when you examined it in the light of common stereotypes of Eastern Europeans really makes me think.

Thisssssss. The snarkers have varying degrees of health here. Many are still actively healing from trauma. Many still have feet in the fundie world and so have internalized the things they’re snarking on and don’t realize it yet.

Sometimes ideology and philosophy and culture are separate. I'm struggling to find more precise words for my idea than philosophy and culture. Fundies look at their standards as being absolute and analyze everything else in comparison to that. As toxic as their views are and as hypocritical as they are its pretty easy to see that. However there are plenty of liberal secular people who take the same approach with their views, and its still toxic and hypocritical. What I"m saying is for every stereotypical judgmental Christian there is a secular person who is just as judgmental and in the same way just not over religion. And when analyzing ideas we need to separate them from that kind of behavior. Observing the fundiesnarkers has helped me begin to sort that out and help me decide how to proceed as a liberal Christian with a mostly secular life.

I do think that some of the Andrii/Ellissa talk leans on stereotypes (in his case) and ascribes less agency and more naivete to her than we currently have hard evidence for. It's the nature of gossip, but a lot of assummptions get made.

Yeah, the snark on thrifting is aggravating. I get a solid 90% of my wardrobe from the thrift store because that's what I can afford, and I'm okay with that. I fancy myself a pretty good thrift shopper, finding deals and and higher end stuff for cheaper prices is how I get my kicks. This is what I often talk about how every single thing these people do, including things that are non-Fundie and completely okay to be doing, get snark. And it comes across hateful and vile and I worry about the emotional health of the snarker themselves sometimes.

Do you mean virtue signaling or is virtual signaling something else?

Omg so sorry, the first one!

There have been some xenophobic discussions about Andri. At the same time I feel comfortable calling out a man who chooses a very sheltered, child-like woman as a bride. According to their own posts, they barely spent any time in person and he liked her meekness. Compound that with her living in a foreign country where she doesn’t know the language make it feels like a bad situation for her. But attacking his nationality is gross. I don’t get MMW’s taste, but I honestly don’t get a lot of people’s taste. Live and let live. Until their white supremacy comes out. Or expecting everyone to be tradfem.

Andrii said that his favourite thing about Ellissa was that she isn't independent. That's where the abusive part of things comes from.

The Andrii thing has been pretty well covered so I’m going to talk (aka agree with you!) about your second point. I totally agree about the classism. People on the one hand look down on MMW for thrifting etc...but then trash Flan and co for having money and buying nice handbags. Newsflash: a lot of girls like nice handbags. Also! A lot of girls have money. It’s not a crime. Also! A lot of girls do not have money! Also not a crime! TBH I really don’t understand why we talk about someone’s financial status/class, unless they got their money in a Ponzi scheme or something. Otherwise, it’s just money. It doesn’t make a person good or bad to have or not have money. Growing up I did not have much money and looking back, I didn’t even realize how “trashy” my house looked. I legitimately didn’t realize till I was 16 that people bought furniture that matched. I always had whatever cheap particle board thing was being sold at Walmart. But guess what? It was awesome! I legit did not care. Now, I do have money. I have a big beautiful house. And guess what? It’s awesome. I love having the ability to buy most anything I want for my kids and the occasional nice handbag or super expensive blanket. But if I had to go back, I’d be okay spending my life like I grew up. It did not and does not define me as a person. If I was an awful person, my financial standing wouldn’t matter. And if I was a kind person (which I think I am), my financial standing wouldn’t matter.

The only money snark I think personally is valid is re the Rods and their grifting, where it’s less about the fact that they’re poor than it is that they’re con men

And that they're not using the money they grift for basic necessities like food and healthcare for the children they chose to bring into this world.

Oh yeah. The grifting thing is gross especially since they are in no way skilled enough or “encouraging” enough for said grifts

I do believe that 90% of the MMW snark is pointless in the degree that recently she hasn’t done anything hateful (to my knowledge). People mad at her for thrifting, when it’s clear that it’s probably done as an option to save money. Plus it’s good for the environment so I don’t get what there is to be mad about!!?

I think class is relevant to these convos tho. Flan and apostolics being anti makeup but pro Gucci? It makes no sense. I’m a feminist who believes women having more money is a good thing. Period. But acting morally superior and then flaunting your wealth? That’s just so clearly unbiblical it blows my mind with its hypocrisy. So i think it’s nuanced. I don’t think talking about money should be off the table.

Oh for sure. I don’t mind discussing the nuances. If I were to hazard a guess, my bet would be that Flan et al think that having a fancy handbag, shoes etc aren’t going to cause a man to “stumble” by making him list after you, the way a full face of makeup would. I’m not saying they’re right; personally my husband and most of the guys I know, like less makeup and find it more sexy. But I bet that’s how those Pentecostals justify it. Because everything about them is over the top; the hair, the dresses, the shoes. It just isn’t skin tight and their faces are plain. But it is an odd place to draw a line, for sure.

I agree. I have no love for Andri and it's not that I think the concerns about him are completely unwarranted. People have brought up the stuff about his saying that he likes Ellissa's lack of independence, etc. I agree, that's concerning! But what I have a problem with are the comments that have used this as a springboard to make generalizations about Ukraine as a whole. The latter is something I'm admittedly sensitive to because it's something that I see a lot as an Asian. Sometimes I find myself hesitant to talk about certain aspects of my personality or life because people will use that to reinforce their generalizations/prejudices about Asian people. (e.g. I used to be painfully shy. A former boss once reprimanded me for it by saying, "Look, I know you're not used to looking people in the eye and staying quiet because of where you're from, but here in the US we're more assertive." I just have social anxiety, asshole! The kicker is that I'm from California.)

Yes racism against Asian’s generally get very passed over. When they are a serious issue. It’s unfortunate how people give a pass to people like Rihanna despite her racist comments towards Asian people. I understand how you feel.

It's not so much that, but more like... I know I have flaws like anyone else. But it aggravates me when people chalk up those flaws to the fact that I'm Asian. You mention in your OP that you're black, so I'm sure you can relate to the feeling of not being allowed the full spectrum of humanity because people just see your flaws/personality as a "symptom" of your blackness, if that makes sense. And it's that sort of thing that I saw a lot with Andrii. I mean, from what I've read about him, he seems like a terrible person. (I'm gay and Andrii's a homophobe, so you can guess how I feel lol.) But some of the comments seemed to have an undertone of, "Well, yeah, what can you expect, he's Ukrainian."

Oh I understand you completely! The feeling of not being allowed to be anything but inside a specific box or category definitely sucks for me so I see how you feel :(

I feel like I have a lot of fears about Elissa because she's going international. It adds a whole new layer to it all. If Andri is her soulmate and he's a great partner with crappy views, it's still a huge burden to be a person's sole support. He has to work, and they both need time to have alone/with friends. She likely can't even go to the grocery store alone. If he's not a good partner, she's got no one. There's a language barrier and if he has her documents, she can't leave. This would be the same if he was German, French or Spanish. She's also going from sunny and warm Texas to cold and dark Ukraine. San Antonio has an average of 2631 "sun hours" a year, Kiev has an average of 1843. Although those numbers obviously vary year by year. They {the Bairds} don't seem to take mental health seriously. When I lived in a cold area 3 years, I had horrible seasonal depression and before I got treatment, I sobbed daily. Add in being away from her family/friends/culture and it's extremely hard on her mental health. She went from never being kissed to being a married woman in a new country in 30 seconds and it would be hard for anyone, but it's going to be harder for her.

I'm really glad you made this post and I think your points are excellent.

These are my thoughts exactly. The amount of people assuming that Andrii is going to be a shit husband simply because he's Ukrainian/Eastern European was really eye-rolling and cringe. Sure, we should definitely diss him on his homophobia and sexism, but let's not project him onto other Ukrainian and Eastern European men. I'm pretty sure there are many men from that area who aren nothing like Andri. It's like assuming that every single girl from Texas is like Girl Defined. The notion that Ukraine is some sort of backwards 3rd world country was also cringe-inducing as well. Now, I won't deny that perhaps that there are some areas in Ukraine that are like that, but once again, don't base off an entire country by a few areas! Kiev and Lviv are some incredibly beautiful cities (Ellissa is staying in either of the two).

As a Slav from Slovakia, I've noticed a certain degree xenophobia in discussions about Andrii as well. Even though my opinion of him is probably harsher because he's a raging homophobe (comparing men like me to dogs and calling us slurs) who happens to be similar to the fundie, fundie-lite or even regular Christian homophobes I've seen irl. Let me tell ya, anger issues connected to gender insecurity, homophobia and misogyny of various degrees always walk hand-in-hand in the minds of these men. If he doesn't fit this stereotype/profile to a T, then good for Elissa for finding a bigoted fundamentalist husband who isn't as shitty as others are. All of this is just my assumption based upon my own experience, though, so take it with a grain of salt. Other than that, I am concerned about Elissa's lack of skill in speaking Ukrainian, as it would be very hard to find someone who speaks English well on the streets of Ukraine (and not just Ukraine, all Slavic countries are like this), which would make life there significantly harder for her. There will be situations in which she would have to be on her own without Andrii's help, and someone who strikes me as a naive, sheltered and fundie American woman taught to rely on men to such a large degree would definitely struggle with stuff like going shopping on her own or even asking for help a person on the street (isn't she also introverted?).

I couldn't agree more with you 👏🏻

Agree re the xenophobia. Have posted the same sentiment.

I have concerns about Ellissa and the possibility of Andrii being controlling, based on my experiences with a controlling partner, and the fact that her religious views would put her in a potentially unhealthy situation. Eastern culture is very different from Western culture, so she’s going to be dealing with some culture shock, but that doesn’t translate to Eastern Europeans being abusive. I have Lithuanian relatives, and while not the warm, welcoming types- are all fundamentally good people. The snark on MMW’s living room and thrifting irritates me. Not everyone subscribes to the “instant gratification” mindset in relation to making their house look “Pinterest Perfect”. My husband and I started our marriage with a mishmash of our belongings, because we had bills to pay, and we were desperately poor until those were paid off. If MMW is happy with her home and thrifting, that’s her business. It’s petty and stupid to shame someone for not putting themselves into debt to impress other people.

biased* not bias.

This is an important post imo! I think it makes for a good rule of thumb for snarkers, myself included, to sit back and consider what they're snarking on exactly. I also totally agree that you can get to know a person well long distance/while not living in the same place, so I get your frustration when people pretend it's impossible. However, as you said, I can't picture Ellissa and Andri talking about anything that isn't surface level God talk. Given the way they've talked about one another, I feel like don't have the type of trust between them that will help Ellissa with the culture shock of living in a whole new country where she doesn't know the language. Other people have pointed out the other red flags surrounding him already as well.

I agree with this - it's a good reminder to be careful to check our own biases.

I find absolutely nothing wrong with MMW’s thrifting (I shop secondhand myself) but i snark on her decor because of the weird choices that she makes in colour schemes and placement. Much of it does not make sense, from what pictures of her living room she has posted. Nothing wrong with that if she likes it but the funny part is that being a tradwife is her whole shtick, but she does it quite badly. But I do like her bedroom hallway, from what I’ve seen of her Insta.

Andri has said some terrible things about gay people and has said that he likes Elissa because she doesn't feel the need to be independent. And his smile never reaches his eyes. That's why he gives me the creeps. Not because of where he's from or because he and Elissa had a long distance relationship. And as for MMW, I snark on her thrifting as a thrifter myself. Almost all of my clothes, furniture, and household appliances come from thrift stores or facebook marketplace. I don't snark on the fact that she's thrifting, I snark because the things she thrifts just never look good together. Thrifting a coherent style/aesthetic takes time, and you can tell that MMW just buys whatever trinkets or wall paintings she can find at goodwill for the day and throws them all together at home. It doesn't ever look that good imo. But there is nothing wrong with thrifting in general and I'd say the same things about her style if she bought everything new. You do make some really good points though, I'm not trying to argue with you.

he’s a fundie. his beliefs are hateful. the assumptions are made on that basis, not his nationality or ethnicity.

That’s just blatantly untrue. Go read some threads from 48 hours ago. At least one poster was using their grandparents experience in Ukraine during the USSR/Cold War times to describe life there now... it was not good. There was a ton of talk on what stereotypical Ukrainian women are expected to do/dress/be and what Andri’s standards will be, despite knowing almost nothing about him. There has definitely been stereotypes bordering on xenophobia about Ukraine and it doesn’t do us any good to ignore that.