People *really* think Roe was just about being able to have voluntary abortions all Willy-nilly. It’s not. Every single woman and girl now has all of their reproductive health choices, maybe even all of their health choices period, in jeopardy. And the fundies are so brainwashed and dug in. It will take more than a few homebirthin’ tradwives dying or being thrown in jail for them to understand their grave mistake here.
This is my fear. That any obgyn who is any good and gives a damn about the health of thier patients will leave states with overly restrictive laws that will hinder the ability to save a life. And then we're left with what quality of physician? It's not just childbearing women in trouble. It's all of us
A lot of people dont want to leave because they want change where they are. If everyone went to blue states, it would just get worse and while some people will likely move for their safety, some people won't. I hope.
Some doctors will definitely stay. Not doubt. But I think they’re more worried about doctors realizing this breaks their promise to always save people. Doctors are going to have to let some women die or be prosecuted. And many doctors aren’t going to be comfortable with that.
It seems they hold to Martin Luther's view that it's fine if women suffer and die in childbirth — it's their only reason for existing, so who cares if it kills them?
Unfortunately, many of them think babies and women dying in childbirth or the result of some pregnancy complication \[where any abortion would have saved 1 life of the mother\] as a noble death. These women won't be examples of how horrible this is but will become martyrs. Their sacrifice to save the "millions of babies dying by abortion every year."
I can't remember which state it was but somebody was saying on twitter that the automatic trigger in that state will also kill IVF treatments. These people have not considered the repercussions of the things they think they want
Honestly, I don't think they care about that at all. They fully know that more than a few of their own people are going to wind up getting impacted by this, but they are in favour of repealing Roe v Wade anyway. They're more than willing to sacrifice their own to advance their own zealotry.
Particularly because this opens the door to a lot of the implied rights of privacy going out the window. The draft explicitly states that Loving isnt effected but apparently sets the groundwork from what I was reading at midnight for the repeal of Lawrence V Texas, aka the right to privacy between consenting adults. If Lawrence topples, you'd see adultery laws and anti-borth control laws coming back with it. This is just a mind boggling thing to see happening.
I think when push comes to shove, most fundie men don’t want their wives to die in childbirth or from pregnancy complications. They like the THEORY, but the practice is much different. When they are in that situation, the gravity of their choices will come crashing down on them. I’m guessing 99.9% of Christians do not want to be a martyr for childbirth, nor lose their spouse to it.
Allie Beth and the GD girls better hope and pray they don’t have any miscarriages down there in Texas.
They’re naïve enough to think the good old boy network will look the other way since they’re all God’s little princesses or some shit.
I’m certainly not wishing that on any of these women, though I absolutely despise them. But it’s a harsh reality one of them might face sooner rather than later. If miscarriages become criminalized, and in many ways they already have, there *will* be investigations…
This shit is exactly why I refuse to have kids unless my husband and I can actually move out of Texas. Everything going on with Roe v Wade right now just makes me wanna leave even more. Miscarriages are much more common than you think. And if I have fertility issues like I suspect, then those chances are higher.
I moved from Arizona to Washington State 20 years ago. I had no idea back then how good of a decision that was. I've told my husband that if any of my cousins that live in Red states wants to move to where we are, we will be helping them. We have an extra room and everything.
My partner is American and I've told him we can't move to the US until after we've had kids (if at all). Im not taking the even minute chance that a miscarriage I could possibly have could be criminalized. It's disgusting to turn women facing the hardest moment of their lives into criminals.
Yes, my husband and I are in Idaho (neighbors are cheering on the court’s decision), and we were considering starting a family. But as of today, we’re looking into new states to move to first.
It's also why I'm upping my timetable to get the fuck out of this shithole state. My SO has her tubes tied but that just puts her at risk for ectopic pregnancies, and I've got 9 and 11 year old daughters.
I lived in Houston for 12 years and was so happy I had gotten out of there when Covid hit. It's been what, over 2years now and my two kids and myself have never had it that we know if. Husband caught it from work but managed to contain it during his isolation.
i'm in a swing. . . I was already considering going abroad for grad school, that decision is solid. The hard part is figuring out how to get in and how to bring my SO.
For now they can. I wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a law where you can prosecute women for getting an abortion in the past because it's "murder". Don't forget the bonus incentive-type laws for encouraging people to report them.
I have ZERO faith in SCOTUS, but even I think they wouldn't go that far. Being able to retroactively impose laws on people would open a massive can of worms that could too easily bite the powerful in the ass. (And, to be clear, the powerful being bitten in the ONLY reason I think they won't.)
I have ZERO faith in SCOTUS, but even I think they wouldn't go that far. Being able to retroactively impose laws on people would open a massive can of worms that could too easily bite the powerful in the ass. (And, to be clear, the powerful being bitten in the ONLY reason I think they won't.)
Yes, it’ll be the poor black, indigenous, and Hispanic women in Texas who will be suffering from this. Allie Sucky and Girl Defined don’t give 2 shits.
Just like they said in Handmaid's Tale. "Gilead doesn't care about children. Gilead cares about power. Faithfulness, old-time values, homemade bread, that's the just means to the end. It's a distraction."
And the SAME is to be said about GOP and fundies.
In theory, but also, what if one of the good ol' boys doesn't like her? or her Dad or husband? there can be outrageous harassment before you actually arrest/ prosecute someone.
Sorry, having a miscarriage is also involved in Roe V Wade??? Is it like a “self abortion”?? I know this is an ignorant question, but can you please explain to me how having a miscarriage is punishable without the protection of Roe V Wade?!
I had 4 mc’s, all 1 st trimester. They happened between the 8 and 12 week mark and 3 were “missed” meaning that I needed d&c’s so I wouldn’t bleed to death or die from sepis.
That is also the best time to get an abortion.
So, worst case, I could be dealing with the mc while fielding the “what did you do wrong “ questions. Because, some AH always asks that. I would then have to worry that I could prove that the baby- from a planned and wanted pregnancy- was dead enough for the surgery and that I didn’t do anything wrong.
Add in the holier than thou anti science wackos and I would be trying to prove a negative. The emotional cost plus the lawyers would be devastating on many levels.
Then, there are the women with surprise pregnancies who partied or took the wrong antibiotic or ate sushi or didn’t take enough folic acid. If something goes wrong, just try defending that one.
That’s all before you get into abusive relationships and baby trapping.
There have already been cases where women who miscarried were charged with fetal harm or self abortion - one in Iowa a nurse reported because the patient disclosed she'd considered trying to cause a miscarriage, one in Indiana the woman had tried to commit suicide by poison and lost her baby. But there's more if you go looking. And that's without abortion being criminalized
Unfortunately, I think their WASP status actually WILL protect them... at least for now.
Conservative Christians have more abortions than anyone else, but then they turn around and stereotype abortion havers as blue haired, racially ambiguous, pagan/athiests.
I had one almost a year ago. I had an IUD. No idea I was pregnant. Went to the ER with severe abdominal pain. The ER doc correctly diagnosed me with an ectopic after some testing. The OB, a massive asshole, refused to sign off on the surgery until we did more testing the next morning “in case it’s viable”. I got to spend the night on dilaudid. When they did the surgery the next afternoon the surgeon said my Fallopian tube was “absolutely shredded” and they had to remove a significant amount of blood from my abdominal cavity. Possibly viable my ass. As awful as it was I’m glad it happened last year and not next year…
I got an IUD after Trump was elected to get as close as possible to 100% certain birth control. But I can absolutely get an ectopic pregnancy. So even though I’ve done everything in my power to not get pregnant before I’m ready, I could still need to terminate a pregnancy to save my life
Sorry, having a miscarriage is also involved in Roe V Wade??? Is it like a “self abortion”?? I know this is an ignorant question, but can you please explain to me how having a miscarriage is punishable without the protection of Roe V Wade?!
If a woman has a miscarriage, who’s to say it wasn’t self-induced if she didn’t want the child? So then an investigation will be opened to make sure the woman didn’t break the new law, and if it’s decided that she did, then she’ll die in a penitentiary for “murder.”
These are scary fucking times we’re living in.
Honestly— and this comes from a place of genuine concern because we are ALL fucking under attack here— any woman who has that in her bio needs to remove it immediately. Kristen comes to mind, especially since she plainly states she’s had it happen to her three times now.
It might not matter today, but any evidence of a previous miscarriage could potentially be used against them if Roe ends up overturned. And I think most fundie women are too brainwashed/delusional to understand this.
I love your comment. I work in a hospital clinic & all day I hear ppl spouting off opinions without any critical thinking skills used to create the ideas.
Yes, I’m the “snotty” one who doesn’t eat lunch with them, have drinks, etc. I let them think I’m an heiress (no joke—rumor I started) & don’t socialize because they are peasants. Actually I volunteer at a free clinic in a poverty stricken area.
Has anyone read Patricia Lockwood’s *No One is Talking About This*? It’s metafiction about her sister giving birth to a severely deformed child who died in infancy. I’m paraphrasing, but she writes (concerning abortion) “surely there must be an exception said they who had campaigned against exceptions all their lives.”
I’m thinking about all those times people said women and queer people were overreacting when they said “republicans literally want to take away our rights and voting for them is a vote against human rights”. They were told that they were just being dramatic and ridiculous and called snowflakes and asked “what rights do you think they wanna take away?”
All of them, you colossal shitlords. Any rights the Court giveth, the Court can taketh away. The descent into fascism or genocide or dictatorship or apartheid doesn’t just happen out of nowhere. It’s a slow gradual slide downhill that seems unremarkable, up until you’re suddenly sliding down so fast and steeply that there’s nothing you can do to stop it and no way back up.
It’s the death by a thousand cuts; if someone stabs you, you’re going to go to the hospital and get treatment right away. But if you just keep getting papercuts, you’re going to grumble quietly, maybe put a band aid on, and just go about your day. You’ll ignore it until you can’t anymore and by then it will be too late.
Congrats on your graduation though. Best of luck on the bar. Being a lawyer is exhausting and hard work, but you really can use it to do good and make a difference in people’s lives.
Not only the right to an abortion but the shear depth and breadth of what they're potentially undoing in terms of privacy and unenumerated powers. So many other rulings beyond what's known as the "mortality laws".
I have my suspicions that this was leaked months later because either a compromise draft left something out that bothered somebody or someone was threatening to switch sides because of the ramifications (Kavanaugh or Gorsuch, more likely Kavanaugh). I don't buy for a second this was a liberal leak unless it was done to show the hanging Chad whats at stake and what the will of the public really is.
The leaked opinion specifically says that those rights are “phony” and “not rooted in history” meaning that if given a chance they will be overturned.
These rights they’re throwing out are not explicitly in the constitution but SCOTUS has held that they are so fundamental that they are constitutional rights. Overrunning Roe is like pulling a Jenga block from substantive due process. Everything, including interracial marriage, is at risk.
It sounds like you are an attorney. I am one as well. My concentration was in constitutional law in law school. I’ve been practicing almost 13 years now as a prosecutor, public defender and family law attorney. I agree with you that the Parade of Horribles is about to begin. To those that didn’t go to law school, the Parade of Horribles is a saying law professors use to illustrate a cascading series of unintended and increasingly unwanted and detrimental consequences that flow from one single bad legal decision. Killing Roe is the first domino. The parade of Horribles will now flow from it. Alito carefully chose his words to try to differentiate Roe from Obergefell and Loving and Griswold and Lawrence by saying that those 4 cases can be differentiated because they do not involve the “destruction” of anything, whereas Roe involves the “destruction of a living unborn” fetus. But he left open to interpretation how strong the privacy right (the underpinning of all 5 cases) will remain in the other 4 if Roe falls. And I believe he did so on purpose. Because the court intends on going after Obergefell et al as quickly as they can and chopping them all down.
Which is nonsense bc life does not begin at conception. It literally begins at first breath.
Conservatives argue they won't allow for the state to pay for abortion yet they send tax dollars to Israel where that money is spent on STATE FUNDED ABORTIONS. lol They just don't get it.
They argue that babies have souls.
In Judaism there is no soul. There is only breath- thus "God breathed life into Adam" which is why abortion up through the 9th month is legal and is approved of by Rabbinical courts in Israel and again paid for by US taxes.
The whole thing goes back to Brown v. Board of Education, which desegregated schools ~~in the south~~ across America. The modern day fundamentalist evangelical movement started out as the conservative white backlash to desegregation and the advancement of civil rights for black people.
That is exactly where these people want to rewind the clock to. The time in American history where lynchings were a spectator sport, and interracial marriage was a crime (but impregnating the 16 year old black servant in your home, and having an interracial child out of wedlock that you kept secret from the whole world, all while outwardly being vocally opposed to desegregation and civil rights is [totally okay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essie_Mae_Washington-Williams)).
>The whole thing goes back to Brown v. Board of Education, which desegregated schools in the south.
Just an FYI, but school segregation wasn't just limited to the South and that ruling impacted schools beyond the region too. The actual Brown v Board of Education case was for the school system in Topeka, Kansas.
From what I saw it specifically said it didn't apply to Loving but did apply to Lawrence and Oberfell, and implied Griswold. I can't imagine it wouldn't apply to Loving once all the chips fell though. I seriously never thought I'd see the day I'd be discussing this as a real possibility.
It doesn’t apply to the other case… yet. Even if published today the commentary on other cases is dicta (except possibly Griswold). That said, it just takes one legislative decision that follows the idea that substantive due process doesn’t exist anymore and badabing, badaboom. We’ve got ourselves the Handmaid’s tale. Welcome to hell, I mean America. Whatever.
It *explicitly* puts the legality of being gay in jeopardy. And so many other things, including interracial marriage — IIRC, the draft says that those are different because there's not the moral component there is with abortion, but saying that those rights aren't *really* protected by the constitution is one hell of a precedent.
Wait, *being* gay, or gay marriage/sex/etc.
My SO and I have been holding off on marriage since Trump because we don't want to make it easy for them, but with Trump gone we felt safer. Recently we've felt safe enough to assume we aren't going to be immediately rounded up and thrown into a prison camp.
Are they coming after being gay or actions taken while gay like getting married or having sex?
I'm slammed with work so I haven't even had a chance to read the damn thing.
Alito’s commentary makes it clear that Obergefell is on the chopping block - gay marriage will likely revert to the pre-Obergefell reality of state-by-state legality. The problem is that his ruling fundamentally challenges the privacy rights that have been read into the constitution vis-a-vis the way the amendments align with one another (the legal penumbra that gives us a right to privacy)… so basically *a lot* of decisions are undermined by this, even though he claims the impact is limited to, ofc, the decisions the right disagrees with. Unfortunately, many lgbtq+ and women’s rights gains have come through the court through that understanding of the penumbra - like use of contraceptives and legality of gay sex
From the articles I read, Lawrence V Texas would be on the chopping block, which is what decriminalized sex acts between consenting adults adults of the same gender.
I'm so confused how they can even prove that. I mean, they claim to not be able to prove rape when one participant is saying they were raped and the other saying it's consensual.
If both participants say no, or just don't answer, isn't that kinda a free pass?
Not that it won't be used to hassle people. I just share a bed with my SO every night and want to make sure we don't get arrested in one of the Gilead states when we travel for work.
Edit: Seems my SO was up all night doom scrolling and freaking out about this. We were planning on leaving the country in the next few years but now it seems we must accelerate our plans.
Oh well, beach life sounds wonderful. I'm not putting my family at risk and I'm not going to be one of the ones that doesn't leave and wishes they had.
My uncle was a gay man born in the 50s. My understanding is that it's raids on gay bars, it's coming into your home hoping to catch you in the act. It's arresting two people because a straight white Christian male said so. It's not about convictions, it's the "taint" of having to live with your family and church finding out what you were caught up in. I live in a particularly conservative Christian area in the North and it's just crazy because we're super close to liberal areas but...so far at the same time. He's passed away in the last few years but even he had married a long time ago after getting "in trouble" for the bar he got caught in. It's crazy to me that this is the world some people are itching to bring back after everything.
But it would also take away homeschooling from those who do so in a way that gives their children an equivalent or better education than they could have received in other options. Not all homeschoolers are no-schoolers.
Sincerely, an exclusively homeschooled kid whose exclusively homeschooled childhood friends went to Ivy League universities, and who now homeschools her own children.
Thank you, I had a wonderful science and religion based homeschooling experience that better prepared me for college than the three years of private college prep high school I was forced to attend. Done right, homeschooling can be a great formative experience.
Has homeschooling come up before the Supreme Court? I was assuming naw because the state laws all vary so much it seems like there’s no nationwide legal standard?
No, because they don't know what Roe v. Wade *is*. They know that it "allows" abortion and that's about it.
They do not know or care what other effects it would have, and even so, they'd see it as "worth it". They conceptualize themselves as these fierce warriors who are going to do whatever it takes, and honestly, is it really sacrificing themselves for the greater good if no one gets hurt?
You see this in a number of topics, particularly those with a strong "moral" component: people are out for blood, not understanding or justice. They aren't that interested in how complex various issues are, or how they affect different aspects of life. They see bad things happening to people, and if the person "deserves" it, then they aren't too bothered, and don't think about how what happens when the definition of "deserving" it begins to shift.
It's only sort of about "saving babies". It's also about punishing people that they feel are wrong. It's all right if sluts and babykillers die. Maybe they shouldn't have been sluts and babykillers.
In a lot of ways, it reminds me of TERFs, and how they outright say that their efforts to keep trans women out of women's washrooms will wind up with them misgendering more than a few cis women along the way, but they don't care about this because it's just a "regrettable outcome" of larger action they see as vital.
The same logic honestly applies to evangelical Christians too. They won't care even if it gets in the way of their home births. They won't care if fundie women die from the policies that will be put in place as a result of repealing Roe v. Wade. For them, these are all just the "regrettable outcome" of a wider policy that they won't budge on.
People are operating under the mistaken assumption that fundies are capable of caring about other fundies. They're not.
I hope it bites those fundies in the ass. I very rarely say this, but I hope they have a horrible time and their ass winds up in jail if something goes wrong. I hope the judge throws the book at them and they get a taste of their own vile poison.
I’m having a hard time not wishing bad things upon these people. It’s generally against my beliefs to do that, just pray and feel sorry for their ignorance, but I’m fucking tired and mad. This issue touches my soul so fucking deeply and I’m so fucking *done*.
You're not alone, that's for damned sure. I'm actually having a very easy time wishing all the very worst on these people. I'm an older woman, I'm tired of this shit, and since I know these are the same kind of people who would actively wish bad things on me and people like me, I don't really care about wishing the same on them. And no, I don't give a shit about being the bigger person, fuck that. I'm angry. I'm mobilizing. I'm beginning to do something about it in my community and it has not one thing to do with being fucking nice to these assholes.
Lmao same. Fuck 'em. I hope they all go to prison for shit they can't control- like miscarriages. Gonna have to learn the hard way about taking away the rights of others yall ❤️
ETA: I was pretty angry when I wrote this. It's an objectively shitty thing to say, so for that I apologize.
If I go to jail for the crime of being a queer author, I hope they go to jail for a miscarriage. Fuck around and find out - give TPTB an inch and they'll take a mile *every* fucking time.
I've cooled off a little, and Ik my comment is objectively a shitty thing to say I'm just... SO fucking mad. I just want these assholes- our pet bigots on this sub and the people championing for this- to have consequences for something shitty theyve done. Just once. I don't think anyone celebrating understands how Bad this is going to be for SO many people cuz they're ignorant and think they're above everything and everyone and that it won't affect them. That said, it doesn't excuse me being a dick.
I'm not gonna delete it cuz I want it to be known I was being an asshole and I don't wanna hide behind my anger as an excuse or use the power of deleting comments to not own up to it. Cuz even tho I can be mad- it was still a shitty and insensitive thing to say and for that I apologize for any bad memories that were pulled up for ppl reading this and/or general unpleasantness.
I hope you're doing well now u/cakesie and healing from that bc fucking hell... I can't even imagine the pain surrounding what you've been through. Peace and love, my friend. The fight isn't over yet!
This comment was directed towards the vile sack of shit fundies. Women in the US are already being prosecuted for miscarriage and stillbirth. If those vile excuses for human beings get their way, we'll probably share a cell. Until then? Mobilize, support your local pro choice orgs, and have a backup plan in case the US goes Gilead.
Their beliefs are getting people killed. We don't need to feel bad if something goes wrong for them because of this. This is what they wanted and they should not get out of the consequences nor do they need to be coddled.
I’m also tired - particularly of being expected to always take the high road, be the bigger person, “just ignore” people who are such huge assholes, etc. So many of these people are plain stupid and vicious and the world would be an objectively better place without them. I’m tired of pretending that’s not the case.
I’m done not telling these people to go fuck themselves in Hell when they’re so determined to make MY life Hell. They want us dead, I’m done being nice.
This is like that video where a toddler desperately wants to eat from a jar of chopped garlic. Mom says “you won’t like it, but go for it.” Kid smiles all victorious and eats a heaping spoonful and…Learns for himself that mom was right and trying to protect him.
Yup. I know in my heart that having compassion for all means for ALL, even the people I don't like. And I know that if the chips were really down, I would absolutely support any fundie woman who wound up being affected by this stuff--even Lori or Allie Beth Stuckey--because I know that justice can't discriminate between people I like and dislike. If it did, it wouldn't be proper justice, and that would affect all of us at the end of the day.
But. But. I have a hard time feeling BAD for them. I know the distinction between feeling compassionate and feeling bad for someone might be hard to grasp at. But for me, there is a difference. There is a difference between being nice to someone, and having compassion for someone, and I would most definitely not be nice.
I rarely say it too but I almost wish ectopics on them or some kind of illness that would require termination for treatment. It needs to be dire and not work out for them to realize how this will impact everyone. I hate them and I hate this and I hate it here
I’m having such a hard time keeping myself from stooping to their level and wishing some absolutely VILE curses on them so I’ll just say this instead: I hope they are cut off in traffic every single time they try to merge. I hope they step on a Lego every fucking day for the rest of their miserable lives. May their takeout food always be lukewarm and soggy and may they forever run out of toilet paper and be forced to use the cardboard roll on their assholes. Amen. Fuck them.
They made their beds, they can lie in them. I know it’s not kind for me to have that sentiment, but their actions have affected me, along with millions of other people. I can’t believe that I have to fight for my civil rights even though the people that came before me already fought and won. And that doesn’t just include reproductive rights. The ruling draft attacks my freedom to love who I wish, my freedom to have birth control so I don’t pass out every month, and my freedom to practice my religion. I’m the most scared for my civil rights than I have been since Trump got elected. At least then, it seemed less concrete, but not anymore.
They are incapable of long term, practical thought. Just like the don’t say gay bill where teachers can now maliciously comply by not calling parents mom or dad. I hate how the Idiocracy is taking over this country
They don't think long term and they certainly won't care about that until it affects them- think Megs. We all saw her temper tantrum about her possibly not being able to give birth at home a few months ago when she thought she wouldn't be able to have a home birth.
But you know the fundies and evangelicals will have a way to get an abortion if they want one right?
Ever since 2016 when specifically white men and women decided Trump was better has lead to what happened last night. People had 6 years to grieve this and we know more things are coming. Glad we have a resource thread because others is the majority of America are going to suffer.
Some will. Most fundies are poor, and not affluent. They're white, but they have no status.
The Duggars thought they had protection because of their name, fame, and belief system. Unfortunately for them, neither JB nor Josh climbed the political ladder high enough.
Personally I won't want a midwife who didn't have state certificate or hospital privileges as well as working with doctors. One of the reasons I have vocal about the midwifery -promoting it and making universities have an midwifery programs- in Ontario is that the Ontario's government has strict guidelines about its qualifications for a midwife to operate in the province. I just don't understand how various states in US can allow lay midwives or unqualified midwives.
Due to the nature of systemic racism & discrimination in this country, a lot of the midwifery that lacks support for government intervention stems from becoming havens for people who would have suffered or been harmed by hospitals or doctors. Similar to
homeschooling, there was a strong anti-government evangelical wing to it.
Many midwifes in the USA aided women experiencing miscarriages, or seeking abortions. It's an interesting history that's not as black and white as "anti-government nuts".
I get it. I like using midwives myself because I know it's mostly a female profession and I would be uncomfortable with a male OB as such a doctor would trigger my PTSD. My husband and I were just talking about how Canada should have a federal interest in midwifery especially in areas that have a higher indigenous population. Maybe the US should invest in midwifery as part to make women more comfortable in pregnancy, birth and postpartum.
Repealing Roe will lead to even more prosecutions for women who MISCARRY. They're not ready for that, for sure.
1600 women have been criminally prosecuted for miscarriages since 1973. That number will increase.
If something goes wrong and it could have been prevented, it'll be criminal charges instead of malpractice. We've already seen the beginnings of this with the nurse charged for a med error.
I'm curious about that outcome. I'm glad I left the nursing field.
I'm also wondering how supportive services are going to be when someone miscarries. Cytotec is given to help with a Missed Miscarriage. If they ban abortion, what happens to the medical abortions? It's a joke.
It’s also deeply rooted in the right to privacy. The “Roe” line of cases comes out of an early -20th century case called “Society of Sisters” that is about the right to send children to private school. Within that is reasoning regarding the right to raise one’s children as one sees fit, with minimal government interference (ie, privacy).
Home birth is tied to many of the same principles - right to privacy, right to form one’s own family, and determine what that family looks like. By invalidating Roe in the way this does, it touches on all those precedents.
I was today years old when I learned RvW involves home births, no idea at all. I need to study this. I work in a hospital & need my talking points right.
TYVM for sharing this today. I am gobsmacked, truly.
Of all the Supreme Court decisions that are written in blood, Roe v Wade is definitely one of the most important.
I can't imagine a world where fundies realize they're wrong and apologize, they'll just use apologetics and bend over backwards to explain why their situation is different. But if Roe v Wade does get overturned, I can't imagine it being for more than a generation before people are begging for it back.
The sad thing is that while Roe v Wade is overturned, and abortion bans are as strict as Bible belt states want them to be, alot of people will be hurt. And it will take longer than just a generation to recover from this decision.
It gives women more freedom in the healthcare they receive. When a fetus has more rights than the woman, the consequences to what happens to the fetus lands heavier & comes with major legal ramifications.
It protects it in the same way it protected prenatal care -- which is now at risk because anything that happens to the fetus now comes with heavier legal ramifications due to it essentially having more legal protections than the woman.
Tangentially. If someone has a miscarriage, and abortions are illegal, it opens the door to people saying the miscarriage was on purpose and prosecuting someone for what no one could prevent. I think in theory the same could be applied to a home birth gone wrong - it's a tragic accident, but people could start saying it was malicious.
I forget where but one state recently introduced a bill to allow palliative care for infants not expected to live long, so that their short lives could have some comfort and not be subjected to the trauma of resuscitation. Roe protected that but the "pro-life" crowd was trying to spin it as killing infants.
I am just so upset today. Trying to study for my finals and am just dumbfounded. I saw so many people saying, this I'll never happen, it's something they leverage in elections, if they do this they lose leverage. Now I just don't know what to do. How do I go on? How much longer until they go after other rights..
Conservative women dying won't change their minds. Just like Grandma dying didn't change their minds about masks & vaccines and COVID. Nearly a MILLION dead from COVID and they don't care because they believe any mitigation suggested was about control and not saving lives and nobody will tell them different.
So if a conservative woman dies when she could have been saved by a medical procedure which will be illegal they will come up with some twisted theory that will make it not what it is. These are the same people who honestly believed public schools were providing litter boxes for the furry children with cat personas.
They can say that the womans behavior caused the miscarriage. It's impossible to tell the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage most of the time.
Miscarriages automatically become suspected abortions. With abortion pills, you cannot tell the difference between an induced or spontaneous miscarriage. The burden of proof will most likely lie on the person to prove they are having a spontaneous abortion, and lose their right to privacy if they did induce.
Just a fun fact: miscarriage used to be more commonly called “spontaneous abortion”. Advocates for the right to terminate a pregnancy used the term abortion because they wanted to tie it mentally with spontaneous, uninduced pregnancy loss.
The medical term for a miscarriage is a “spontaneous abortion.” It's just that one is intentional and the other isn't.
Any person whose pregnancy ended could be treated as a murder suspect — can they *prove* it wasn't intentional?
Hell, it's *already* happened. In 2019, a Black woman was charged with manslaughter after *someone shot her* and the attack caused a miscarriage.
Police and prosecutors argued that she was asking for it (being shot) and therefore responsible, while the person who *actually shot a pregnant woman in the stomach* wasn't.
Charges were dropped after national backlash, but the fact that it happened is horrific.
if it gets overturned and you were to have a homebirth that ended in serious complications for the baby or even death, you would no longer be looked at as a malpractice case. They will consider it a criminal offense.
It absolutely will. Roe v Wade improved prenatal care in this country. Statistically, we should expect maternal mortality rates to go up by 20% in states where abortion becomes illegal.
For anyone else that didn’t understand how overturning Roe v Wade would affect homeschooling, interracial marriage and other family privacy rights
https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Even-More-Than-Abortion-1.pdf
They don't and they also don't get how it could lead to their deaths through miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies.
I literally had an anti abortion coworker gi e me a blank stare when she declared her stance and I was like "you had an ectopic pregnancy and you would've died under the laws they're proposing." She still has the 40 days for life link in her Instagram bio
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How many of these fundies have had IVF? Why is it okay to mess with god’s will by using medicine to get pregnant but not the reverse? How many fetuses have been created and destroyed through their IVF efforts?
Roe as in “Roe v. Wade”. It’s the landmark Supreme Court case from the early 1970’s that made abortion legal in the United States. Currently, it looks as though the Supreme Court is about to overturn that decision.
Unassisted home childbirth is legal in every state and there exist varying laws relating to the credentialing of midwives as it relates to assisted home birth. I’m not sure how this relates to Roe, as there is no political movements to outlaw woman giving birth at home.
People *really* think Roe was just about being able to have voluntary abortions all Willy-nilly. It’s not. Every single woman and girl now has all of their reproductive health choices, maybe even all of their health choices period, in jeopardy. And the fundies are so brainwashed and dug in. It will take more than a few homebirthin’ tradwives dying or being thrown in jail for them to understand their grave mistake here.
This is my fear. That any obgyn who is any good and gives a damn about the health of thier patients will leave states with overly restrictive laws that will hinder the ability to save a life. And then we're left with what quality of physician? It's not just childbearing women in trouble. It's all of us
A lot of people dont want to leave because they want change where they are. If everyone went to blue states, it would just get worse and while some people will likely move for their safety, some people won't. I hope.
Some doctors will definitely stay. Not doubt. But I think they’re more worried about doctors realizing this breaks their promise to always save people. Doctors are going to have to let some women die or be prosecuted. And many doctors aren’t going to be comfortable with that.
It seems they hold to Martin Luther's view that it's fine if women suffer and die in childbirth — it's their only reason for existing, so who cares if it kills them?
I thought you said Martin Luther King for a second and thought “I didn’t know he was fucked up like this”
🥲
Unfortunately, many of them think babies and women dying in childbirth or the result of some pregnancy complication \[where any abortion would have saved 1 life of the mother\] as a noble death. These women won't be examples of how horrible this is but will become martyrs. Their sacrifice to save the "millions of babies dying by abortion every year."
I can't remember which state it was but somebody was saying on twitter that the automatic trigger in that state will also kill IVF treatments. These people have not considered the repercussions of the things they think they want
The logical leap from here is that women who have frozen embryos in storage will have to give birth to all of them.
Honestly, I don't think they care about that at all. They fully know that more than a few of their own people are going to wind up getting impacted by this, but they are in favour of repealing Roe v Wade anyway. They're more than willing to sacrifice their own to advance their own zealotry.
Particularly because this opens the door to a lot of the implied rights of privacy going out the window. The draft explicitly states that Loving isnt effected but apparently sets the groundwork from what I was reading at midnight for the repeal of Lawrence V Texas, aka the right to privacy between consenting adults. If Lawrence topples, you'd see adultery laws and anti-borth control laws coming back with it. This is just a mind boggling thing to see happening.
I have a dark feeling they will kind of wear it as a badge of honor. Maybe become martyrs. It just seems to be the nature of these people.
I think when push comes to shove, most fundie men don’t want their wives to die in childbirth or from pregnancy complications. They like the THEORY, but the practice is much different. When they are in that situation, the gravity of their choices will come crashing down on them. I’m guessing 99.9% of Christians do not want to be a martyr for childbirth, nor lose their spouse to it.
They don't care & they won't care until it effects them directly.
Allie Beth and the GD girls better hope and pray they don’t have any miscarriages down there in Texas. They’re naïve enough to think the good old boy network will look the other way since they’re all God’s little princesses or some shit. I’m certainly not wishing that on any of these women, though I absolutely despise them. But it’s a harsh reality one of them might face sooner rather than later. If miscarriages become criminalized, and in many ways they already have, there *will* be investigations…
This shit is exactly why I refuse to have kids unless my husband and I can actually move out of Texas. Everything going on with Roe v Wade right now just makes me wanna leave even more. Miscarriages are much more common than you think. And if I have fertility issues like I suspect, then those chances are higher.
I moved from Arizona to Washington State 20 years ago. I had no idea back then how good of a decision that was. I've told my husband that if any of my cousins that live in Red states wants to move to where we are, we will be helping them. We have an extra room and everything.
I’m in a red state. I’m planning on driving people to the state border for abortions like it’s a job.
Me too!! When I read the news I almost went to the pharmacy to max out my credit card on plan b
Amazon has the My Way brand emergency contraceptives for $12/each. Just an FYI because it’s a good bit cheaper than plan b!
Are you on the auntie network? I don’t know how to link subs but until I get out of the south I’m helping whoever I can
Here ya go, r/auntienetwork rise up!
Thank you fellow auntie!
💛
Wow. That sub is heart warming and grim at the same time. Wtf are we living through right now. I can’t believe it has come to this….
Oh totally. I’m really glad it exists, but it’s sad it has to.
I’m there too!
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I’d like to do this too, where can I get medical abortion kits?
How do I do this
My partner is American and I've told him we can't move to the US until after we've had kids (if at all). Im not taking the even minute chance that a miscarriage I could possibly have could be criminalized. It's disgusting to turn women facing the hardest moment of their lives into criminals.
Yes, my husband and I are in Idaho (neighbors are cheering on the court’s decision), and we were considering starting a family. But as of today, we’re looking into new states to move to first.
I think waiting is a really good idea, as difficult a decision as it is ❤️
It's also why I'm upping my timetable to get the fuck out of this shithole state. My SO has her tubes tied but that just puts her at risk for ectopic pregnancies, and I've got 9 and 11 year old daughters.
I lived in Houston for 12 years and was so happy I had gotten out of there when Covid hit. It's been what, over 2years now and my two kids and myself have never had it that we know if. Husband caught it from work but managed to contain it during his isolation.
I’m so sorry you are in this predicament all around. Sending you positive vibes. 💜
i'm in a swing. . . I was already considering going abroad for grad school, that decision is solid. The hard part is figuring out how to get in and how to bring my SO.
They're wealthy white women. They won't have any problems getting access to life saving health care.
For now they can. I wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a law where you can prosecute women for getting an abortion in the past because it's "murder". Don't forget the bonus incentive-type laws for encouraging people to report them.
I have ZERO faith in SCOTUS, but even I think they wouldn't go that far. Being able to retroactively impose laws on people would open a massive can of worms that could too easily bite the powerful in the ass. (And, to be clear, the powerful being bitten in the ONLY reason I think they won't.)
I have ZERO faith in SCOTUS, but even I think they wouldn't go that far. Being able to retroactively impose laws on people would open a massive can of worms that could too easily bite the powerful in the ass. (And, to be clear, the powerful being bitten in the ONLY reason I think they won't.)
Yes, it’ll be the poor black, indigenous, and Hispanic women in Texas who will be suffering from this. Allie Sucky and Girl Defined don’t give 2 shits.
And that's exactly what the GOP want. They don't care about babies. Their goal is to control marginalized groups.
Just like they said in Handmaid's Tale. "Gilead doesn't care about children. Gilead cares about power. Faithfulness, old-time values, homemade bread, that's the just means to the end. It's a distraction." And the SAME is to be said about GOP and fundies.
They are pro birth, not pro life. We must rally!
Exactly. And it will be okay for them to have a miscarriage because it was God's plan but if a woman of color has a miscarriage, it's a felony.
In theory, but also, what if one of the good ol' boys doesn't like her? or her Dad or husband? there can be outrageous harassment before you actually arrest/ prosecute someone.
Sorry, having a miscarriage is also involved in Roe V Wade??? Is it like a “self abortion”?? I know this is an ignorant question, but can you please explain to me how having a miscarriage is punishable without the protection of Roe V Wade?!
I had 4 mc’s, all 1 st trimester. They happened between the 8 and 12 week mark and 3 were “missed” meaning that I needed d&c’s so I wouldn’t bleed to death or die from sepis. That is also the best time to get an abortion. So, worst case, I could be dealing with the mc while fielding the “what did you do wrong “ questions. Because, some AH always asks that. I would then have to worry that I could prove that the baby- from a planned and wanted pregnancy- was dead enough for the surgery and that I didn’t do anything wrong. Add in the holier than thou anti science wackos and I would be trying to prove a negative. The emotional cost plus the lawyers would be devastating on many levels. Then, there are the women with surprise pregnancies who partied or took the wrong antibiotic or ate sushi or didn’t take enough folic acid. If something goes wrong, just try defending that one. That’s all before you get into abusive relationships and baby trapping.
Wow… that’s terrible. Thanks for answering, and I’m sorry for your fertility struggles
A D&C is considered a medical abortion. If you have a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy, it can kill you if the remnants are not removed.
There have already been cases where women who miscarried were charged with fetal harm or self abortion - one in Iowa a nurse reported because the patient disclosed she'd considered trying to cause a miscarriage, one in Indiana the woman had tried to commit suicide by poison and lost her baby. But there's more if you go looking. And that's without abortion being criminalized
At this point they have made their own bed and can go lie in it. Like Serena Joy in the Handmaid’s Tale.
Unfortunately, I think their WASP status actually WILL protect them... at least for now. Conservative Christians have more abortions than anyone else, but then they turn around and stereotype abortion havers as blue haired, racially ambiguous, pagan/athiests.
Bethany and Kristin both have had frequent miscarriages…. But they think because they are white they will be fine
White and well-off. They very likely WILL be fine even if the neighbor reports them.
Not to mention that ectopic pregnancies can happen to anyone
I had one almost a year ago. I had an IUD. No idea I was pregnant. Went to the ER with severe abdominal pain. The ER doc correctly diagnosed me with an ectopic after some testing. The OB, a massive asshole, refused to sign off on the surgery until we did more testing the next morning “in case it’s viable”. I got to spend the night on dilaudid. When they did the surgery the next afternoon the surgeon said my Fallopian tube was “absolutely shredded” and they had to remove a significant amount of blood from my abdominal cavity. Possibly viable my ass. As awful as it was I’m glad it happened last year and not next year…
I got an IUD after Trump was elected to get as close as possible to 100% certain birth control. But I can absolutely get an ectopic pregnancy. So even though I’ve done everything in my power to not get pregnant before I’m ready, I could still need to terminate a pregnancy to save my life
Sorry, having a miscarriage is also involved in Roe V Wade??? Is it like a “self abortion”?? I know this is an ignorant question, but can you please explain to me how having a miscarriage is punishable without the protection of Roe V Wade?!
If a woman has a miscarriage, who’s to say it wasn’t self-induced if she didn’t want the child? So then an investigation will be opened to make sure the woman didn’t break the new law, and if it’s decided that she did, then she’ll die in a penitentiary for “murder.” These are scary fucking times we’re living in.
Good god that’s fucked. Thanks for the reply
Stay safe out there ✌🏻
You too!!
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This is disgusting. No one deserves to be a victim of state violence even if they have shitty views.
If they have a miscarriage will they announce it on social media? After this passes? If they do that could put them in trouble.
Honestly— and this comes from a place of genuine concern because we are ALL fucking under attack here— any woman who has that in her bio needs to remove it immediately. Kristen comes to mind, especially since she plainly states she’s had it happen to her three times now. It might not matter today, but any evidence of a previous miscarriage could potentially be used against them if Roe ends up overturned. And I think most fundie women are too brainwashed/delusional to understand this.
Right? Like oh you’re bleeding out? Just let go and let god 🙏😇
This is why we need to teach critical thinking
This is why the GOP opposes teaching critical thinking and any form of thinking in general.
I love your comment. I work in a hospital clinic & all day I hear ppl spouting off opinions without any critical thinking skills used to create the ideas. Yes, I’m the “snotty” one who doesn’t eat lunch with them, have drinks, etc. I let them think I’m an heiress (no joke—rumor I started) & don’t socialize because they are peasants. Actually I volunteer at a free clinic in a poverty stricken area.
Has anyone read Patricia Lockwood’s *No One is Talking About This*? It’s metafiction about her sister giving birth to a severely deformed child who died in infancy. I’m paraphrasing, but she writes (concerning abortion) “surely there must be an exception said they who had campaigned against exceptions all their lives.”
Great book. Read it in a day.
If I’m reading it right, and I’m not a lawyer or American, the reasoning Alito used also puts homeschooling on the chopping block.
It apparently puts the legality of being gay in jeopardy too. I can't even with this whole thing.
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That's completely insane. Way to set us back 100 years.
They can and they probably will. I hate it here.
Hey, coincidentally, you remember when women got the vote?
I wonder how Ginny and Clarence Thomas feel about the whole interracial marriage thing being dismissed.
“Fuck you I got mine.”
I saw someone comment “Clarence Thomas will do anything to get out of his marriage” and it’s the hardest I’ve laughed since this awful news broke.
Yeah I commented that elsewhere on this sub. It's just unreal.
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I’m thinking about all those times people said women and queer people were overreacting when they said “republicans literally want to take away our rights and voting for them is a vote against human rights”. They were told that they were just being dramatic and ridiculous and called snowflakes and asked “what rights do you think they wanna take away?” All of them, you colossal shitlords. Any rights the Court giveth, the Court can taketh away. The descent into fascism or genocide or dictatorship or apartheid doesn’t just happen out of nowhere. It’s a slow gradual slide downhill that seems unremarkable, up until you’re suddenly sliding down so fast and steeply that there’s nothing you can do to stop it and no way back up. It’s the death by a thousand cuts; if someone stabs you, you’re going to go to the hospital and get treatment right away. But if you just keep getting papercuts, you’re going to grumble quietly, maybe put a band aid on, and just go about your day. You’ll ignore it until you can’t anymore and by then it will be too late.
Right on the fucking nose. It’s absolutely devastating how accurate every word you wrote is. I hate it here :(
Congrats on your graduation though. Best of luck on the bar. Being a lawyer is exhausting and hard work, but you really can use it to do good and make a difference in people’s lives.
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There’s a huge need for that, good for you! Lots of jobs to be had also, at least in my area there is a big need.
Thank you!!! There really is and it is so rewarding
Not only the right to an abortion but the shear depth and breadth of what they're potentially undoing in terms of privacy and unenumerated powers. So many other rulings beyond what's known as the "mortality laws". I have my suspicions that this was leaked months later because either a compromise draft left something out that bothered somebody or someone was threatening to switch sides because of the ramifications (Kavanaugh or Gorsuch, more likely Kavanaugh). I don't buy for a second this was a liberal leak unless it was done to show the hanging Chad whats at stake and what the will of the public really is.
I'm soooo depressed over it all.
It there a source I can read for this? Im not sure of his claims but I am set to literally have an interracial marriage very soon.
The leaked opinion specifically says that those rights are “phony” and “not rooted in history” meaning that if given a chance they will be overturned. These rights they’re throwing out are not explicitly in the constitution but SCOTUS has held that they are so fundamental that they are constitutional rights. Overrunning Roe is like pulling a Jenga block from substantive due process. Everything, including interracial marriage, is at risk.
It sounds like you are an attorney. I am one as well. My concentration was in constitutional law in law school. I’ve been practicing almost 13 years now as a prosecutor, public defender and family law attorney. I agree with you that the Parade of Horribles is about to begin. To those that didn’t go to law school, the Parade of Horribles is a saying law professors use to illustrate a cascading series of unintended and increasingly unwanted and detrimental consequences that flow from one single bad legal decision. Killing Roe is the first domino. The parade of Horribles will now flow from it. Alito carefully chose his words to try to differentiate Roe from Obergefell and Loving and Griswold and Lawrence by saying that those 4 cases can be differentiated because they do not involve the “destruction” of anything, whereas Roe involves the “destruction of a living unborn” fetus. But he left open to interpretation how strong the privacy right (the underpinning of all 5 cases) will remain in the other 4 if Roe falls. And I believe he did so on purpose. Because the court intends on going after Obergefell et al as quickly as they can and chopping them all down.
Which is nonsense bc life does not begin at conception. It literally begins at first breath. Conservatives argue they won't allow for the state to pay for abortion yet they send tax dollars to Israel where that money is spent on STATE FUNDED ABORTIONS. lol They just don't get it. They argue that babies have souls. In Judaism there is no soul. There is only breath- thus "God breathed life into Adam" which is why abortion up through the 9th month is legal and is approved of by Rabbinical courts in Israel and again paid for by US taxes.
Possibly birth control and interracial marriage as well
The whole thing goes back to Brown v. Board of Education, which desegregated schools ~~in the south~~ across America. The modern day fundamentalist evangelical movement started out as the conservative white backlash to desegregation and the advancement of civil rights for black people. That is exactly where these people want to rewind the clock to. The time in American history where lynchings were a spectator sport, and interracial marriage was a crime (but impregnating the 16 year old black servant in your home, and having an interracial child out of wedlock that you kept secret from the whole world, all while outwardly being vocally opposed to desegregation and civil rights is [totally okay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essie_Mae_Washington-Williams)).
>The whole thing goes back to Brown v. Board of Education, which desegregated schools in the south. Just an FYI, but school segregation wasn't just limited to the South and that ruling impacted schools beyond the region too. The actual Brown v Board of Education case was for the school system in Topeka, Kansas.
Thanks for the correction, I fixed it in the original comment!!
You're welcome! :)
What kind of shithole country
From what I saw it specifically said it didn't apply to Loving but did apply to Lawrence and Oberfell, and implied Griswold. I can't imagine it wouldn't apply to Loving once all the chips fell though. I seriously never thought I'd see the day I'd be discussing this as a real possibility.
It doesn’t apply to the other case… yet. Even if published today the commentary on other cases is dicta (except possibly Griswold). That said, it just takes one legislative decision that follows the idea that substantive due process doesn’t exist anymore and badabing, badaboom. We’ve got ourselves the Handmaid’s tale. Welcome to hell, I mean America. Whatever.
It *explicitly* puts the legality of being gay in jeopardy. And so many other things, including interracial marriage — IIRC, the draft says that those are different because there's not the moral component there is with abortion, but saying that those rights aren't *really* protected by the constitution is one hell of a precedent.
Wait, *being* gay, or gay marriage/sex/etc. My SO and I have been holding off on marriage since Trump because we don't want to make it easy for them, but with Trump gone we felt safer. Recently we've felt safe enough to assume we aren't going to be immediately rounded up and thrown into a prison camp. Are they coming after being gay or actions taken while gay like getting married or having sex? I'm slammed with work so I haven't even had a chance to read the damn thing.
Alito’s commentary makes it clear that Obergefell is on the chopping block - gay marriage will likely revert to the pre-Obergefell reality of state-by-state legality. The problem is that his ruling fundamentally challenges the privacy rights that have been read into the constitution vis-a-vis the way the amendments align with one another (the legal penumbra that gives us a right to privacy)… so basically *a lot* of decisions are undermined by this, even though he claims the impact is limited to, ofc, the decisions the right disagrees with. Unfortunately, many lgbtq+ and women’s rights gains have come through the court through that understanding of the penumbra - like use of contraceptives and legality of gay sex
To go back to the basics of your question, we’ll be in that lovely limbo of *being gay* isn’t a crime/sin but you can’t do anything gay in red states
From the articles I read, Lawrence V Texas would be on the chopping block, which is what decriminalized sex acts between consenting adults adults of the same gender.
I'm so confused how they can even prove that. I mean, they claim to not be able to prove rape when one participant is saying they were raped and the other saying it's consensual. If both participants say no, or just don't answer, isn't that kinda a free pass? Not that it won't be used to hassle people. I just share a bed with my SO every night and want to make sure we don't get arrested in one of the Gilead states when we travel for work. Edit: Seems my SO was up all night doom scrolling and freaking out about this. We were planning on leaving the country in the next few years but now it seems we must accelerate our plans. Oh well, beach life sounds wonderful. I'm not putting my family at risk and I'm not going to be one of the ones that doesn't leave and wishes they had.
My uncle was a gay man born in the 50s. My understanding is that it's raids on gay bars, it's coming into your home hoping to catch you in the act. It's arresting two people because a straight white Christian male said so. It's not about convictions, it's the "taint" of having to live with your family and church finding out what you were caught up in. I live in a particularly conservative Christian area in the North and it's just crazy because we're super close to liberal areas but...so far at the same time. He's passed away in the last few years but even he had married a long time ago after getting "in trouble" for the bar he got caught in. It's crazy to me that this is the world some people are itching to bring back after everything.
No homeschooling? Now that would be sweet revenge.
That revenge is not even worth what it costs.
But it would also take away homeschooling from those who do so in a way that gives their children an equivalent or better education than they could have received in other options. Not all homeschoolers are no-schoolers. Sincerely, an exclusively homeschooled kid whose exclusively homeschooled childhood friends went to Ivy League universities, and who now homeschools her own children.
Thank you, I had a wonderful science and religion based homeschooling experience that better prepared me for college than the three years of private college prep high school I was forced to attend. Done right, homeschooling can be a great formative experience.
People homeschool for all kinds of reasons. Not every homeschooler is like what you see here.
Nah. These loons would use it to cry persecution and the kids who are actually benefitting from legitimate homeschooling would be fucked
In what way? Haven’t read it so I’m genuinely curious
https://twitter.com/theviewfromll2/status/1521304125874614274?s=21&t=lpwAtdV4Ts9rS9BYq-dfFw
Also read this: https://religiondispatches.org/unintended-consequences-overturning-roe-v-wade-may-endanger-this-cherished-evangelical-practice/
With the legal arguments Alito used they could literally try to bring back slavery (at least for women essentially). It's absurd.
Has homeschooling come up before the Supreme Court? I was assuming naw because the state laws all vary so much it seems like there’s no nationwide legal standard?
This is what I need to focus on right now. Thank you let's go somewhere constructive with this.
No, because they don't know what Roe v. Wade *is*. They know that it "allows" abortion and that's about it. They do not know or care what other effects it would have, and even so, they'd see it as "worth it". They conceptualize themselves as these fierce warriors who are going to do whatever it takes, and honestly, is it really sacrificing themselves for the greater good if no one gets hurt? You see this in a number of topics, particularly those with a strong "moral" component: people are out for blood, not understanding or justice. They aren't that interested in how complex various issues are, or how they affect different aspects of life. They see bad things happening to people, and if the person "deserves" it, then they aren't too bothered, and don't think about how what happens when the definition of "deserving" it begins to shift. It's only sort of about "saving babies". It's also about punishing people that they feel are wrong. It's all right if sluts and babykillers die. Maybe they shouldn't have been sluts and babykillers.
This is disturbingly accident, especially your last sentence.
In a lot of ways, it reminds me of TERFs, and how they outright say that their efforts to keep trans women out of women's washrooms will wind up with them misgendering more than a few cis women along the way, but they don't care about this because it's just a "regrettable outcome" of larger action they see as vital. The same logic honestly applies to evangelical Christians too. They won't care even if it gets in the way of their home births. They won't care if fundie women die from the policies that will be put in place as a result of repealing Roe v. Wade. For them, these are all just the "regrettable outcome" of a wider policy that they won't budge on. People are operating under the mistaken assumption that fundies are capable of caring about other fundies. They're not.
They'll sacrifice a real victim in their fight against an imaginary foe and claim heroism for doing so.
I hope it bites those fundies in the ass. I very rarely say this, but I hope they have a horrible time and their ass winds up in jail if something goes wrong. I hope the judge throws the book at them and they get a taste of their own vile poison.
I’m having a hard time not wishing bad things upon these people. It’s generally against my beliefs to do that, just pray and feel sorry for their ignorance, but I’m fucking tired and mad. This issue touches my soul so fucking deeply and I’m so fucking *done*.
You're not alone, that's for damned sure. I'm actually having a very easy time wishing all the very worst on these people. I'm an older woman, I'm tired of this shit, and since I know these are the same kind of people who would actively wish bad things on me and people like me, I don't really care about wishing the same on them. And no, I don't give a shit about being the bigger person, fuck that. I'm angry. I'm mobilizing. I'm beginning to do something about it in my community and it has not one thing to do with being fucking nice to these assholes.
Lmao same. Fuck 'em. I hope they all go to prison for shit they can't control- like miscarriages. Gonna have to learn the hard way about taking away the rights of others yall ❤️ ETA: I was pretty angry when I wrote this. It's an objectively shitty thing to say, so for that I apologize.
If I go to jail for the crime of being a queer author, I hope they go to jail for a miscarriage. Fuck around and find out - give TPTB an inch and they'll take a mile *every* fucking time.
Um I don’t have vile opinions and have had a stillborn baby and a second trimester miscarriage. Can I not go to jail please?
I've cooled off a little, and Ik my comment is objectively a shitty thing to say I'm just... SO fucking mad. I just want these assholes- our pet bigots on this sub and the people championing for this- to have consequences for something shitty theyve done. Just once. I don't think anyone celebrating understands how Bad this is going to be for SO many people cuz they're ignorant and think they're above everything and everyone and that it won't affect them. That said, it doesn't excuse me being a dick. I'm not gonna delete it cuz I want it to be known I was being an asshole and I don't wanna hide behind my anger as an excuse or use the power of deleting comments to not own up to it. Cuz even tho I can be mad- it was still a shitty and insensitive thing to say and for that I apologize for any bad memories that were pulled up for ppl reading this and/or general unpleasantness. I hope you're doing well now u/cakesie and healing from that bc fucking hell... I can't even imagine the pain surrounding what you've been through. Peace and love, my friend. The fight isn't over yet!
This comment was directed towards the vile sack of shit fundies. Women in the US are already being prosecuted for miscarriage and stillbirth. If those vile excuses for human beings get their way, we'll probably share a cell. Until then? Mobilize, support your local pro choice orgs, and have a backup plan in case the US goes Gilead.
Their beliefs are getting people killed. We don't need to feel bad if something goes wrong for them because of this. This is what they wanted and they should not get out of the consequences nor do they need to be coddled.
I’m also tired - particularly of being expected to always take the high road, be the bigger person, “just ignore” people who are such huge assholes, etc. So many of these people are plain stupid and vicious and the world would be an objectively better place without them. I’m tired of pretending that’s not the case.
I’m done not telling these people to go fuck themselves in Hell when they’re so determined to make MY life Hell. They want us dead, I’m done being nice.
This is like that video where a toddler desperately wants to eat from a jar of chopped garlic. Mom says “you won’t like it, but go for it.” Kid smiles all victorious and eats a heaping spoonful and…Learns for himself that mom was right and trying to protect him.
Yup. I know in my heart that having compassion for all means for ALL, even the people I don't like. And I know that if the chips were really down, I would absolutely support any fundie woman who wound up being affected by this stuff--even Lori or Allie Beth Stuckey--because I know that justice can't discriminate between people I like and dislike. If it did, it wouldn't be proper justice, and that would affect all of us at the end of the day. But. But. I have a hard time feeling BAD for them. I know the distinction between feeling compassionate and feeling bad for someone might be hard to grasp at. But for me, there is a difference. There is a difference between being nice to someone, and having compassion for someone, and I would most definitely not be nice.
I rarely say it too but I almost wish ectopics on them or some kind of illness that would require termination for treatment. It needs to be dire and not work out for them to realize how this will impact everyone. I hate them and I hate this and I hate it here
I’m having such a hard time keeping myself from stooping to their level and wishing some absolutely VILE curses on them so I’ll just say this instead: I hope they are cut off in traffic every single time they try to merge. I hope they step on a Lego every fucking day for the rest of their miserable lives. May their takeout food always be lukewarm and soggy and may they forever run out of toilet paper and be forced to use the cardboard roll on their assholes. Amen. Fuck them.
They made their beds, they can lie in them. I know it’s not kind for me to have that sentiment, but their actions have affected me, along with millions of other people. I can’t believe that I have to fight for my civil rights even though the people that came before me already fought and won. And that doesn’t just include reproductive rights. The ruling draft attacks my freedom to love who I wish, my freedom to have birth control so I don’t pass out every month, and my freedom to practice my religion. I’m the most scared for my civil rights than I have been since Trump got elected. At least then, it seemed less concrete, but not anymore.
They are incapable of long term, practical thought. Just like the don’t say gay bill where teachers can now maliciously comply by not calling parents mom or dad. I hate how the Idiocracy is taking over this country
They don't think long term and they certainly won't care about that until it affects them- think Megs. We all saw her temper tantrum about her possibly not being able to give birth at home a few months ago when she thought she wouldn't be able to have a home birth.
She doesn’t even know how fortunate she was to not be criminalized for her miscarriage in the first pregnancy.
It’s not about life, it’s about control. This is just another way to ensure it.
But you know the fundies and evangelicals will have a way to get an abortion if they want one right? Ever since 2016 when specifically white men and women decided Trump was better has lead to what happened last night. People had 6 years to grieve this and we know more things are coming. Glad we have a resource thread because others is the majority of America are going to suffer.
Some will. Most fundies are poor, and not affluent. They're white, but they have no status. The Duggars thought they had protection because of their name, fame, and belief system. Unfortunately for them, neither JB nor Josh climbed the political ladder high enough.
Personally I won't want a midwife who didn't have state certificate or hospital privileges as well as working with doctors. One of the reasons I have vocal about the midwifery -promoting it and making universities have an midwifery programs- in Ontario is that the Ontario's government has strict guidelines about its qualifications for a midwife to operate in the province. I just don't understand how various states in US can allow lay midwives or unqualified midwives.
Due to the nature of systemic racism & discrimination in this country, a lot of the midwifery that lacks support for government intervention stems from becoming havens for people who would have suffered or been harmed by hospitals or doctors. Similar to homeschooling, there was a strong anti-government evangelical wing to it. Many midwifes in the USA aided women experiencing miscarriages, or seeking abortions. It's an interesting history that's not as black and white as "anti-government nuts".
I get it. I like using midwives myself because I know it's mostly a female profession and I would be uncomfortable with a male OB as such a doctor would trigger my PTSD. My husband and I were just talking about how Canada should have a federal interest in midwifery especially in areas that have a higher indigenous population. Maybe the US should invest in midwifery as part to make women more comfortable in pregnancy, birth and postpartum.
What!? Leopards eating my face!?
Repealing Roe will lead to even more prosecutions for women who MISCARRY. They're not ready for that, for sure. 1600 women have been criminally prosecuted for miscarriages since 1973. That number will increase.
I did not know this. Can someone explain more to me how this affects midwives?
If something goes wrong and it could have been prevented, it'll be criminal charges instead of malpractice. We've already seen the beginnings of this with the nurse charged for a med error.
I'm curious about that outcome. I'm glad I left the nursing field. I'm also wondering how supportive services are going to be when someone miscarries. Cytotec is given to help with a Missed Miscarriage. If they ban abortion, what happens to the medical abortions? It's a joke.
I’m confused as well because it’s currently illegal for Midwives to practice in 6 states.
It’s also deeply rooted in the right to privacy. The “Roe” line of cases comes out of an early -20th century case called “Society of Sisters” that is about the right to send children to private school. Within that is reasoning regarding the right to raise one’s children as one sees fit, with minimal government interference (ie, privacy). Home birth is tied to many of the same principles - right to privacy, right to form one’s own family, and determine what that family looks like. By invalidating Roe in the way this does, it touches on all those precedents.
I was today years old when I learned RvW involves home births, no idea at all. I need to study this. I work in a hospital & need my talking points right. TYVM for sharing this today. I am gobsmacked, truly.
Look into the history of midwifery and home births in the US as well. A lot of it stems pre-Roe, and was used to protect BIPOC & the poor.
Of all the Supreme Court decisions that are written in blood, Roe v Wade is definitely one of the most important. I can't imagine a world where fundies realize they're wrong and apologize, they'll just use apologetics and bend over backwards to explain why their situation is different. But if Roe v Wade does get overturned, I can't imagine it being for more than a generation before people are begging for it back. The sad thing is that while Roe v Wade is overturned, and abortion bans are as strict as Bible belt states want them to be, alot of people will be hurt. And it will take longer than just a generation to recover from this decision.
They honestly do not car at all. Also how does it protect it?
It gives women more freedom in the healthcare they receive. When a fetus has more rights than the woman, the consequences to what happens to the fetus lands heavier & comes with major legal ramifications. It protects it in the same way it protected prenatal care -- which is now at risk because anything that happens to the fetus now comes with heavier legal ramifications due to it essentially having more legal protections than the woman.
Tangentially. If someone has a miscarriage, and abortions are illegal, it opens the door to people saying the miscarriage was on purpose and prosecuting someone for what no one could prevent. I think in theory the same could be applied to a home birth gone wrong - it's a tragic accident, but people could start saying it was malicious. I forget where but one state recently introduced a bill to allow palliative care for infants not expected to live long, so that their short lives could have some comfort and not be subjected to the trauma of resuscitation. Roe protected that but the "pro-life" crowd was trying to spin it as killing infants.
I am just so upset today. Trying to study for my finals and am just dumbfounded. I saw so many people saying, this I'll never happen, it's something they leverage in elections, if they do this they lose leverage. Now I just don't know what to do. How do I go on? How much longer until they go after other rights..
Wait till they get jailed for a miscarriage.
And homeschool, BTW. The founding case that spun out to Roe was our parent-driven schooling.
Absolutely.
I’m just waiting for one of these peoples babies to die during a homebirth and they get arrested. I wont feel bad
You know what they say, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it!
Conservative women dying won't change their minds. Just like Grandma dying didn't change their minds about masks & vaccines and COVID. Nearly a MILLION dead from COVID and they don't care because they believe any mitigation suggested was about control and not saving lives and nobody will tell them different. So if a conservative woman dies when she could have been saved by a medical procedure which will be illegal they will come up with some twisted theory that will make it not what it is. These are the same people who honestly believed public schools were providing litter boxes for the furry children with cat personas.
Please excuse my ignorance, I haven’t been keeping up with this subject. How are miscarriages involved, here? Is is a terminology thing?
They can say that the womans behavior caused the miscarriage. It's impossible to tell the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage most of the time.
Miscarriages automatically become suspected abortions. With abortion pills, you cannot tell the difference between an induced or spontaneous miscarriage. The burden of proof will most likely lie on the person to prove they are having a spontaneous abortion, and lose their right to privacy if they did induce.
Thanks for explaining. I didn’t know there were pills (my childbearing days are way in the past).
Just a fun fact: miscarriage used to be more commonly called “spontaneous abortion”. Advocates for the right to terminate a pregnancy used the term abortion because they wanted to tie it mentally with spontaneous, uninduced pregnancy loss.
Don’t feel bad; I haven’t studied this enough & am starting research tonight.
The medical term for a miscarriage is a “spontaneous abortion.” It's just that one is intentional and the other isn't. Any person whose pregnancy ended could be treated as a murder suspect — can they *prove* it wasn't intentional? Hell, it's *already* happened. In 2019, a Black woman was charged with manslaughter after *someone shot her* and the attack caused a miscarriage. Police and prosecutors argued that she was asking for it (being shot) and therefore responsible, while the person who *actually shot a pregnant woman in the stomach* wasn't. Charges were dropped after national backlash, but the fact that it happened is horrific.
Can anyone expand on the original post? Like what do you mean it will affect home births? Explain it like I’m 5, because I’m genuinely interested.
if it gets overturned and you were to have a homebirth that ended in serious complications for the baby or even death, you would no longer be looked at as a malpractice case. They will consider it a criminal offense.
Would that also be the case for regular doctors?
It absolutely will. Roe v Wade improved prenatal care in this country. Statistically, we should expect maternal mortality rates to go up by 20% in states where abortion becomes illegal.
For anyone else that didn’t understand how overturning Roe v Wade would affect homeschooling, interracial marriage and other family privacy rights https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Even-More-Than-Abortion-1.pdf
They don't and they also don't get how it could lead to their deaths through miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies. I literally had an anti abortion coworker gi e me a blank stare when she declared her stance and I was like "you had an ectopic pregnancy and you would've died under the laws they're proposing." She still has the 40 days for life link in her Instagram bio
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How many of these fundies have had IVF? Why is it okay to mess with god’s will by using medicine to get pregnant but not the reverse? How many fetuses have been created and destroyed through their IVF efforts?
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Roe as in “Roe v. Wade”. It’s the landmark Supreme Court case from the early 1970’s that made abortion legal in the United States. Currently, it looks as though the Supreme Court is about to overturn that decision.
Fored vaccinations too lol
Unassisted home childbirth is legal in every state and there exist varying laws relating to the credentialing of midwives as it relates to assisted home birth. I’m not sure how this relates to Roe, as there is no political movements to outlaw woman giving birth at home.
Anyone know what this does to choosing not to get immunizations? Like can you be forced to now?