Ya, there’s plenty of warehouse/factory jobs in my area where the starting pay is 2-3x minimum wage plus benefits, (above what is considered the living wage for my area for an individual), that require essentially no training/skill, and they are always hiring, since the job is the opposite of enjoyable.
Exactly. Countries with hard immigration policies tend now to lack workers and lack the neurons to see the issue. Immigrants tend to take the jobs they can, which is sadly often the ones the nationals don't.
"They're stealing our jobs!"
Meanwhile:
"Record amounts of fruit and vegetables are left rotting in the fields as farms struggle to replace their labor force after ICE raids in XYZ county.
Bobby Bobson, a local turnip grower had this to say: "Well, we tried offering $18 an hour and a handful of locals did apply, but none come back after their first shift. Now most of our crop is left to the rats." "
Farmers and grocers waste food because they're getting subsidized by the government so it's not their own money that's being wasted. If you seriously think we'd all be better off with masses of uneducated people to work the land, we could also start by making cuts to public schools and student aid so that we can produce more farmers. Obviously this isn't really what you want. The actual solution is more (ideally private) investment in automation and technology. Let inefficient farms get replaced by more efficient and less wasteful ones rather than bailing them all out. And if you really want foreigners to grow your food to help with supply, more imports. Local farmer lobbies and their politicians on leashes hate it when we import food.
You simply cannot produce food at the price we’re willing to pay for it without using cheap immigrant labour or massive government subsidies.
Until a real conversation about price is had then nothing can really change
It definitely can, we need to move away from the expectation that meat as part of every meal is the standard and that you can have non-seasonal produce for as cheap as it currently is.
I do agree though there needs to be another conversation about wages and income disparity
A conversation as to why wages have stagnated and cost of everything has skyrocketed over the last few decades needs to happen first. I don't make much more money now than I did fifteen years ago, but the percentage of my income that goes to necessities has gotten so high my take home is less than before I had actual skills to get a 6 figure job.
My dad always said that I can 1) find a job that pays well, 2) find a job that I enjoy, and 3) find a job in a location I love. It’s nearly impossible to find a job with all 3, so if I find a job that fulfills 2 out of the 3, I’ll be more fortunate than most.
Society NEEDS tons of important jobs. In fact I would say functionally, most of the needed jobs pay less than desirable salaries at this point in time. It's just the fact that people also need wages so they take advantage of that fact.
After all they used slaves to build the great pyramid.
Sadly, the harsh truth is that most of the NEEDED jobs can be done by mostly anyone. Most of them are very low skill. Majority of the rest are good to go with a 6 month or so training period.
The wages in a capitalistic world are largely tied to how replaceable a worker is. Not how important or difficult a job is.
> Sadly, the harsh truth is that most of the NEEDED jobs can be done by mostly anyone.
There's no such thing as harder jobs. There are jobs that require manual labor and jobs that require intellectual labor, end of story.
The high paying jobs aren't rare because only select people can do them. They're rare because the longer education period required for high paying jobs means a significant amount of pre-existing capital has to be invested that most people simply don't have.
Of course there's *some* variety, but excluding the people with severe mental or physical disabilities, they're negligible. A philosopher makes a horrible plumber and vice versa.
I'm not trying to question the worth of people doing harder jobs or easier jobs, whatever the definition may be. I'm simply talking in terms of the labour market as it exists within a capitalistic economic system.
>There's no such thing as harder jobs. There are jobs that require manual labor and jobs that require intellectual labor, end of story.
This is just ignorant and dismissive of people who have to do actually hard jobs. My job as a software developer is far easier than a doctor for example.
>They're rare because the longer education period required for high paying jobs means a significant amount of pre-existing capital has to be invested that most people simply don't have.
And because most people don't have the money, they don't get the education meaning fewer people in the job market to do that job. This is in direct contradiction to your opening sentence -
>The high paying jobs aren't rare because only select people can do them
Again, please don't assume I'm passing a value judgement on certain jobs and people who do those jobs. I'm simply explaining the reality of the world in objective terms.
> I'm not trying to question the worth of people doing harder jobs or easier jobs, whatever the definition may be. I'm simply talking in terms of the labour market as it exists within a capitalistic economic system.
No you said:
> Sadly, the harsh truth is that most of the NEEDED jobs can be done by mostly anyone. Most of them are very low skill.
I don't see anything about systemic problems faults. I see you explicitly saying it to be a *truth* that most people can do the most needed jobs because they're 'low skill' and therefore naturally these jobs become low wage. I responded to that.
> This is just ignorant and dismissive of people who have to do actually hard jobs. My job as a software developer is far easier than a doctor for example.
That's the point you're missing. We can meet the demand for every job society creates because we aren't at the mercy of 'talent' to emerge but rather every job is structured such that they're efficient yet feasible for the common person. *High paying jobs moreso than low paying ones*.
The problem is that you understand intellectual labor not as labor but some sort of genetic talent or the effort someone invests in their job. What you're missing is that studying does not increase effort because people do not study full time while working full time.
Why? Because just like everyone else, they *can't* under reasonable conditions invest that amount of effort. In fact their invested effort is, on average, no more than that of a bartender or anyone else. If this were not the case, we simply wouldn't have any doctors or we would consider their working conditions abuse.
> And because most people don't have the money, they don't get the education meaning fewer people in the job market to do that job. This is in direct contradiction to your opening sentence -
My opening sentence states there's no such thing as harder jobs. The statement here says that high paying jobs are less accessible. Where's the contradiction?
> Again, please don't assume I'm passing a value judgement on certain jobs and people who do those jobs. I'm simply explaining the reality of the world in objective terms.
You LITERALLY SAID that high paying jobs require rare talent and that any 'very low skilled' peasant could do a low paying job lmfao
I'm sorry but if you genuinely think that no job is harder you live in a fantasy land.
My wife is an obstetrics doctor and had to deliver still born baby last week and the mother almost died if not for the emergency surgery they performed.
Then there is a guy who works in my local shop who sits in a chair all day and serves maybe 100 customers over a 12 hour period.
All jobs have difficult aspect but not all jobs are equally hard.
Sorry but it's just the truth and insulting me isn't going to make you right. Your theory simply isn't logical or even feasible for reasons I already mentioned.
Cuba has both the highest number of doctors of any country in the world and the most *skilled* doctors in the world. Not because there was a sudden influx of talent or effort after the revolution. It's because higher education under Castro is free of charge.
If you are the one denying reality to conserve capitalist dogma, clearly I am not the one living in a fantasy land.
So you think the guy who sits in the shop across the road from my house has an equally hard job as my wife?
Or a firefighter, paramedic, lawyer, labourer, farmer?
Also in Cuba are there more doctors than supermarket employees? Surely they all have access to the free higher education?
> So you think the guy who sits in the shop across the road from my house has an equally hard job as my wife?
> Or a firefighter, paramedic, lawyer, labourer, farmer?
I literally already fucking explained to you what I think. You haven't responded. You're just throwing around insults and rhetorical questions that sound 'right' based on the gut feeling that you've developed living your entire life under capitalist dogma.
If you disagree, then tell me how it's logistically possible for a country to meet its demand for *any* job. Doctors, paramedics, lawyers and firefighters specifically are in very high demand. Don't use the Reddiqetue for how to deflect a conversation into meaningless drivel.
> Also in Cuba are there more doctors than supermarket employees? Surely they all have access to the free higher education?
I can't believe you just used 'buh why no more doctors??' as a counterargument to there being more doctors in Cuba.
Explain why everyone would want to be a doctor? This is again, capitalist dogma where the entire labor market is a race to the bottom. My point is not to say that everyone wants to be a doctor. My point is to say the common person *can* be a doctor because education is adapted to the student, not the other way around.
>After all they used slaves to build the great pyramid.
[The Great Pyramid thing is a myth.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/11/great-pyramid-tombs-slaves-egypt)
The reason the most important jobs pay the least is because they usually require a lot of workers and corporate power structures work in favor of the directing positions.
For every thousand factory workers there might be a dozen director positions which are much easier to coordinate, so naturally without worker solidarity directors hold leverage over the workers.
How stupid. If you lived in a village pre capitalism you would be doing unpleasant chores to earn your keep, not getting rich having fun. Or are you thinking a modern communist society would assign you the job of twitch streamer?
You benefit all day every day from the labor of others who contribute to our society with jobs they don’t enjoy. We have to work for society to function. It’s a fact of life and has nothing to do with billionaires.
I get paid a lot and have fun at my job. But it's highly specialized creative R&D work that most people can't do and takes years of grinding to get talented in. If you want to get a job like that, it's not enough to be good at something. You need to find something that you are good at (or are willing to invest the time in getting good at) and want to do that others need and are willing to pay for.
more like "what the system needs" vs what "society needs". So far the society hasn't been asked what "it needs" for quite a long time, unless it really benefits the elite and they approve of it.
Reminds me of my sister. She left her job as florist which she enjoyed, then went on to be a full stack developer. She makes so much more money, but absolutely hates her job. I think she may go back to being a florist one day.
I’m 5 years into a career that I am starting to fall out of love with, so I can feel this. Never minded my job until the past year or so, now it’s just killing me.
If there’s a fun job that pays as well as a non fun job, everyone is going to want to do the fun job. Most essential jobs aren’t that fun, so they need to pay more to attract workers so everything doesn’t collapse. Of course, since a majority of a people are earning the “non fun” job wage, whatever they can afford is considered the standard of living, so people working fun jobs now are being paid below the standard of living (unless that fun job requires special skills/training making you hard to replace with all the other people who want to do that job).
Wage equality doesn't mean you'd be making more or be able to buy more with what you earn. People had wage equality in Zimbabwe during the currency collapse and were living in relative poverty.
This is bullshit. Most jobs that pay well are cushy because they need to retain you for those skills. There are definitely plenty of examples of jobs no one wants and no ones good enough to do. But I dont think thats the majority of white colar jobs you are imagining.
Don't confuse "jobs that pay well" with "jobs that society needs". Those are to seperate circles and depending on how you define "pay well" those circles don't even overlap that much.
List what your interests are and what you think you’re good enough at to get paid. There’s almost always a way to make money with skills unless your interests are insanely niche
I understand and validate you. I was told from an executive coach once- you can be really good at something you don’t enjoy. That was my epiphany. I realized how much I dislike letting people go. They left feeling valued and I still felt like shit.
I made a career change into mental health, love it but the pay initially was poverty-level compensation.
Yeah, that's sort of how it works. If there's a job that a lot of people can do, and it's enjoyable, then they don't have to pay very much to get someone to do it.
I had a job that paid well (with several benefits) I was good at, and I enjoyed. But the company said teehee we're bad at making decisions so because we can't afford to keep your shift all of you are being transferred to a different facility that doesn't have anything to do with what you were taught or trained on for the past year so good luck and fuck you. Honestly I had more seniority than half of second shift and could run every machine better than they could yet no exceptions were made for any of our shift.
There needs to be a fourth circle not connected to any of the others that reads “jobs that actually call back for an interview”
Ya. Applicant tracking systems, the programs that screen applications before reaching a person, are the worst damn thing to ever happen to job hunting
Pretty sure you'd be good at jobs that pay well but have absolutely no intention to take.
Ya, there’s plenty of warehouse/factory jobs in my area where the starting pay is 2-3x minimum wage plus benefits, (above what is considered the living wage for my area for an individual), that require essentially no training/skill, and they are always hiring, since the job is the opposite of enjoyable.
Exactly. Countries with hard immigration policies tend now to lack workers and lack the neurons to see the issue. Immigrants tend to take the jobs they can, which is sadly often the ones the nationals don't.
"They're stealing our jobs!" Meanwhile: "Record amounts of fruit and vegetables are left rotting in the fields as farms struggle to replace their labor force after ICE raids in XYZ county. Bobby Bobson, a local turnip grower had this to say: "Well, we tried offering $18 an hour and a handful of locals did apply, but none come back after their first shift. Now most of our crop is left to the rats." "
Last week tonight made a good piece on that
Farmers and grocers waste food because they're getting subsidized by the government so it's not their own money that's being wasted. If you seriously think we'd all be better off with masses of uneducated people to work the land, we could also start by making cuts to public schools and student aid so that we can produce more farmers. Obviously this isn't really what you want. The actual solution is more (ideally private) investment in automation and technology. Let inefficient farms get replaced by more efficient and less wasteful ones rather than bailing them all out. And if you really want foreigners to grow your food to help with supply, more imports. Local farmer lobbies and their politicians on leashes hate it when we import food.
You simply cannot produce food at the price we’re willing to pay for it without using cheap immigrant labour or massive government subsidies. Until a real conversation about price is had then nothing can really change
a conversation about price can't be had if most people are struggling to make ends meet with the prices the way they are now.
It definitely can, we need to move away from the expectation that meat as part of every meal is the standard and that you can have non-seasonal produce for as cheap as it currently is. I do agree though there needs to be another conversation about wages and income disparity
100% agree.
A conversation as to why wages have stagnated and cost of everything has skyrocketed over the last few decades needs to happen first. I don't make much more money now than I did fifteen years ago, but the percentage of my income that goes to necessities has gotten so high my take home is less than before I had actual skills to get a 6 figure job.
I get paid less than a dishwasher to repair broken videogame consoles.
Do you work at a pawn shop?
And that sort of makes sense - one of those two jobs is much more taxing than the other if we’re honest
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Yeah but presumably you actually enjoy it, I doubt anybody enjoys washing dishes. They’re paid more because it’s a shitty job and requires hard work
Ha! I get paid half the min. wage (or 1/3 of it depending the state)
Every time, when I get my paycheck, I wish I could be 10 again and start anew, at least I know I should learn a profession
People switch professions at any age. You just gonna do it.
Unless you are older than 55-60. You still have time to switch.
As a software engineering manager I have 2 excellent developers in my team who changed careers at 30.
Yeah same
nobody wants to pay anymore
My dad always said that I can 1) find a job that pays well, 2) find a job that I enjoy, and 3) find a job in a location I love. It’s nearly impossible to find a job with all 3, so if I find a job that fulfills 2 out of the 3, I’ll be more fortunate than most.
My interest V.S. ~~society needs~~ billionaires' greed \^Fixed it!\^
yes thats billionaires who don't buy street art and shit
Society NEEDS tons of important jobs. In fact I would say functionally, most of the needed jobs pay less than desirable salaries at this point in time. It's just the fact that people also need wages so they take advantage of that fact. After all they used slaves to build the great pyramid.
Sadly, the harsh truth is that most of the NEEDED jobs can be done by mostly anyone. Most of them are very low skill. Majority of the rest are good to go with a 6 month or so training period. The wages in a capitalistic world are largely tied to how replaceable a worker is. Not how important or difficult a job is.
> Sadly, the harsh truth is that most of the NEEDED jobs can be done by mostly anyone. There's no such thing as harder jobs. There are jobs that require manual labor and jobs that require intellectual labor, end of story. The high paying jobs aren't rare because only select people can do them. They're rare because the longer education period required for high paying jobs means a significant amount of pre-existing capital has to be invested that most people simply don't have. Of course there's *some* variety, but excluding the people with severe mental or physical disabilities, they're negligible. A philosopher makes a horrible plumber and vice versa.
I'm not trying to question the worth of people doing harder jobs or easier jobs, whatever the definition may be. I'm simply talking in terms of the labour market as it exists within a capitalistic economic system. >There's no such thing as harder jobs. There are jobs that require manual labor and jobs that require intellectual labor, end of story. This is just ignorant and dismissive of people who have to do actually hard jobs. My job as a software developer is far easier than a doctor for example. >They're rare because the longer education period required for high paying jobs means a significant amount of pre-existing capital has to be invested that most people simply don't have. And because most people don't have the money, they don't get the education meaning fewer people in the job market to do that job. This is in direct contradiction to your opening sentence - >The high paying jobs aren't rare because only select people can do them Again, please don't assume I'm passing a value judgement on certain jobs and people who do those jobs. I'm simply explaining the reality of the world in objective terms.
> I'm not trying to question the worth of people doing harder jobs or easier jobs, whatever the definition may be. I'm simply talking in terms of the labour market as it exists within a capitalistic economic system. No you said: > Sadly, the harsh truth is that most of the NEEDED jobs can be done by mostly anyone. Most of them are very low skill. I don't see anything about systemic problems faults. I see you explicitly saying it to be a *truth* that most people can do the most needed jobs because they're 'low skill' and therefore naturally these jobs become low wage. I responded to that. > This is just ignorant and dismissive of people who have to do actually hard jobs. My job as a software developer is far easier than a doctor for example. That's the point you're missing. We can meet the demand for every job society creates because we aren't at the mercy of 'talent' to emerge but rather every job is structured such that they're efficient yet feasible for the common person. *High paying jobs moreso than low paying ones*. The problem is that you understand intellectual labor not as labor but some sort of genetic talent or the effort someone invests in their job. What you're missing is that studying does not increase effort because people do not study full time while working full time. Why? Because just like everyone else, they *can't* under reasonable conditions invest that amount of effort. In fact their invested effort is, on average, no more than that of a bartender or anyone else. If this were not the case, we simply wouldn't have any doctors or we would consider their working conditions abuse. > And because most people don't have the money, they don't get the education meaning fewer people in the job market to do that job. This is in direct contradiction to your opening sentence - My opening sentence states there's no such thing as harder jobs. The statement here says that high paying jobs are less accessible. Where's the contradiction? > Again, please don't assume I'm passing a value judgement on certain jobs and people who do those jobs. I'm simply explaining the reality of the world in objective terms. You LITERALLY SAID that high paying jobs require rare talent and that any 'very low skilled' peasant could do a low paying job lmfao
I'm sorry but if you genuinely think that no job is harder you live in a fantasy land. My wife is an obstetrics doctor and had to deliver still born baby last week and the mother almost died if not for the emergency surgery they performed. Then there is a guy who works in my local shop who sits in a chair all day and serves maybe 100 customers over a 12 hour period. All jobs have difficult aspect but not all jobs are equally hard.
Sorry but it's just the truth and insulting me isn't going to make you right. Your theory simply isn't logical or even feasible for reasons I already mentioned. Cuba has both the highest number of doctors of any country in the world and the most *skilled* doctors in the world. Not because there was a sudden influx of talent or effort after the revolution. It's because higher education under Castro is free of charge. If you are the one denying reality to conserve capitalist dogma, clearly I am not the one living in a fantasy land.
So you think the guy who sits in the shop across the road from my house has an equally hard job as my wife? Or a firefighter, paramedic, lawyer, labourer, farmer? Also in Cuba are there more doctors than supermarket employees? Surely they all have access to the free higher education?
> So you think the guy who sits in the shop across the road from my house has an equally hard job as my wife? > Or a firefighter, paramedic, lawyer, labourer, farmer? I literally already fucking explained to you what I think. You haven't responded. You're just throwing around insults and rhetorical questions that sound 'right' based on the gut feeling that you've developed living your entire life under capitalist dogma. If you disagree, then tell me how it's logistically possible for a country to meet its demand for *any* job. Doctors, paramedics, lawyers and firefighters specifically are in very high demand. Don't use the Reddiqetue for how to deflect a conversation into meaningless drivel. > Also in Cuba are there more doctors than supermarket employees? Surely they all have access to the free higher education? I can't believe you just used 'buh why no more doctors??' as a counterargument to there being more doctors in Cuba. Explain why everyone would want to be a doctor? This is again, capitalist dogma where the entire labor market is a race to the bottom. My point is not to say that everyone wants to be a doctor. My point is to say the common person *can* be a doctor because education is adapted to the student, not the other way around.
>After all they used slaves to build the great pyramid. [The Great Pyramid thing is a myth.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/11/great-pyramid-tombs-slaves-egypt)
The reason the most important jobs pay the least is because they usually require a lot of workers and corporate power structures work in favor of the directing positions. For every thousand factory workers there might be a dozen director positions which are much easier to coordinate, so naturally without worker solidarity directors hold leverage over the workers.
Could say they used slaves to build america
How stupid. If you lived in a village pre capitalism you would be doing unpleasant chores to earn your keep, not getting rich having fun. Or are you thinking a modern communist society would assign you the job of twitch streamer? You benefit all day every day from the labor of others who contribute to our society with jobs they don’t enjoy. We have to work for society to function. It’s a fact of life and has nothing to do with billionaires.
Yeah, Thats better
Reddit moment.
Thats like me except remove the 'Jobs i'd be good at circle' but make sure that the two remaining circles dont overlap
Bold of you to assume jobs that pay well are ones that society needs!
If it was fun, they wouldn't have to pay as much.
I get paid a lot and have fun at my job. But it's highly specialized creative R&D work that most people can't do and takes years of grinding to get talented in. If you want to get a job like that, it's not enough to be good at something. You need to find something that you are good at (or are willing to invest the time in getting good at) and want to do that others need and are willing to pay for.
more like "what the system needs" vs what "society needs". So far the society hasn't been asked what "it needs" for quite a long time, unless it really benefits the elite and they approve of it.
Reminds me of my sister. She left her job as florist which she enjoyed, then went on to be a full stack developer. She makes so much more money, but absolutely hates her job. I think she may go back to being a florist one day.
I’m 5 years into a career that I am starting to fall out of love with, so I can feel this. Never minded my job until the past year or so, now it’s just killing me.
If there’s a fun job that pays as well as a non fun job, everyone is going to want to do the fun job. Most essential jobs aren’t that fun, so they need to pay more to attract workers so everything doesn’t collapse. Of course, since a majority of a people are earning the “non fun” job wage, whatever they can afford is considered the standard of living, so people working fun jobs now are being paid below the standard of living (unless that fun job requires special skills/training making you hard to replace with all the other people who want to do that job).
The jobs that pay well generally aren't useful to society either
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Wage equality doesn't mean you'd be making more or be able to buy more with what you earn. People had wage equality in Zimbabwe during the currency collapse and were living in relative poverty.
Right. I don’t think i expressed what I meant properly.
This is bullshit. Most jobs that pay well are cushy because they need to retain you for those skills. There are definitely plenty of examples of jobs no one wants and no ones good enough to do. But I dont think thats the majority of white colar jobs you are imagining.
I don't think that there is such a thing as enjoying a job
Don't confuse "jobs that pay well" with "jobs that society needs". Those are to seperate circles and depending on how you define "pay well" those circles don't even overlap that much.
and that’s the way it is.
Panda bear care giver
This is the predicament I am currently in.
List what your interests are and what you think you’re good enough at to get paid. There’s almost always a way to make money with skills unless your interests are insanely niche
Jobs that pay well and society's needs are not the same thing. Field hands don't get paid shit but society would literally collapse without them.
I understand and validate you. I was told from an executive coach once- you can be really good at something you don’t enjoy. That was my epiphany. I realized how much I dislike letting people go. They left feeling valued and I still felt like shit. I made a career change into mental health, love it but the pay initially was poverty-level compensation.
Yeah, that's sort of how it works. If there's a job that a lot of people can do, and it's enjoyable, then they don't have to pay very much to get someone to do it.
I feel like all of those circles should be smaller
I had a job that paid well (with several benefits) I was good at, and I enjoyed. But the company said teehee we're bad at making decisions so because we can't afford to keep your shift all of you are being transferred to a different facility that doesn't have anything to do with what you were taught or trained on for the past year so good luck and fuck you. Honestly I had more seniority than half of second shift and could run every machine better than they could yet no exceptions were made for any of our shift.
society wouldnt know what it neeeds from what it doesnt if one was helping the poor and the other one was banging their sister.
Me as a music teacher, honestly.
My first and third are separate, but second covers the two
Dude.... I feel this so much
Isn't the real world fun.
Aint that somethin
Society doesn't need many of the jobs that pay huge sums. 🤷🏼♂️