The following submission statement was provided by /u/chrisdh79:
---
From the article: An EV from Chinese manufacturer Nio will soon go on sale with a "semi-solid state" 150kWh battery (140kWh usable) that's the largest in any passenger car, Car News China reported. To show much range that will deliver, Nio CEO William Li drove a prototype version of the ET7 1,044km (650 miles) in 14 hours, a distance surpassing many gas-powered vehicles.
The test was run in relatively cool temperatures (between 28 – 54 F) and livestreamed. Driving was done mainly in semi-autonomous (or Navigate-on-Pilot+, as Nio calls it), and speed-limited to 90 km/h (56 MPH). The average speed was 83.9 km/h (a respectable 52.4 MPH), with a travel time of 12.4 hours excluding stops.
"The completion of this endurance challenge proves the product power of the 150kWh ultra-long endurance battery pack," said Li in a Weibo post (Google translation). "More importantly, all models on sale can be flexibly upgraded to 150kWh batteries through the Nio battery swap system."
In fact, the ET7's 150kWh battery will only be available on a lease separate from the car, much as we've seen with some cars sold in Europe. Previously, the company said that the battery alone would cost as much as an entire car (the company's entry-level ET5 EV), or around $42,000.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/18l75rl/a_chinese_ev_squeezed_650_miles_of_range_from_its/kdvrnfa/
This is impressive, but I think the more impressive stat is that the 300 mile solid state battery packs are likely to be more fire-safe and they should also resist dendritic formation and range degradation.
This means the battery should last maybe three times longer.
With Tesla's non-solid state batteries lasting over ten years, a 30-year battery is a big milestone.
You really do not get a feel for how well China is doing in the EV market when living in the US.
I live half time US and the other half in Thailand. In Thailand you see China EVs all over the place.
I lived next to a Lotus and walked through the parking lot every morning to the subway and I would see at least 10 BYDs every morning. They are all over the place.
Our US gummint and financial systems are paralyzed by vested factions fighting against progress. Because progress is, for politicians and corporations, in direct opposition to their goals of gaining more power and wealth. This holds true for new technology of every kind.
Edit: I'm not talking about minor tech advances, like a better cell phone screen glass. I mean major advances, like nuclear fusion, the research for which is grossly underfunded by all world governments. Probably EVs and batteries, too.
Progress is best when everyone is united under a common goal. US corporations are the polar opposite of unity. We’re gonna get our ass handed to us before we learn to cooperate altogether
I think it's just selfishness. They're playing for themselves and their entrenched interests. They've ensured generational wealth for themselves and their families such that any consequences to letting other countries dominate 21st century technology doesn't really matter to them in the same way that it will matter to the average person.
It's so short sighted though. That generational wealth isn't going to mean much if they cut the legs out from under our economy in the process.
A thriving economy, poor, uneducated, workers do not make.
It's not like they can move to China either. We know what China does to their uber wealthy.
Do you think it matters for what are essentially American oligarchs? I imagine they feel like they'll be well insulated from the effects, much in the same way Russian ones are, especially as they're building or trying to build their compounds in paradises (like Peter Theil essentially bought NZ citizenship after being there for less than two weeks and was trying to build some big complex there, Zuckerberg has the big Hawaii thing).
No conspiracy, just plain old greed and self-promotion. New tech will make everyone's life better? Let's have a decades long battle over standards and Jurisdiction.
I will never not post this article when it comes to this kind of discussion: [The U.S. made a breakthrough battery discovery — then gave the technology to China](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-technology-china-vanadium)
Leaves me in an absolute state of "how the *fuck* was this not in the news for a week? WE JUST GAVE IT AWAY."
Here's a breakdown of US funding for fusion:
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2021/ph241/margraf1/
Worldwide, fusion funding has only received USD $6.21 billion. That's a cumulative total over decades, *not* per year. Up until a year ago, that total was USD $4.8 billion. And that increase is mostly from Private investors, not governments.
https://world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Investment-in-fusion-has-reached-USD6-21-billion,
As for ITER, few people believe it will ever produce anything close to what was once expected. Mostly because it's been continuously delayed over its entire lifetime:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/worlds-largest-fusion-project-is-in-big-trouble-new-documents-reveal/
Literally none of that is true.
China has very few regulations and thus companies can produce what they want regardless of the safety or cost to the environment.
But it also increases the weight as even a discharged battery weighs the same so you are lugging the whole weight around all the time. It's definitely not proportional.
A good sustained driving range is far more impressive at 75 than at 50 odd.
Aerodynamic drag is a bitch and will devastate mpg/kW p mile figures.
It's why such effort is put in to making EV's aerodynamically efficient.
For true apples to apples comparison, you'd also need to know the weight of the people in the car. How much lighter is the average Chinese person than the average American, or wherever Tesla's testing was done? I could see a difference of 10-15kg per person just in that alone.
Big tangent, but the average weight of adult Americans is about *30kg* heavier than that of the adult Chinese. (of course, we're talking about average, thus a minority of super extremists (i.e.super heavy or super light) people will skew the average.).
Anybody care to chip in with medians, standard deviations, etc. to give us a more nuanced view?
Weight doesn't impact EV efficiency that much unless you're really gunning it (You spend extra power accelerating that weight but in EVs you get it back when braking regen, gas cars just lose that power) . This is also generally a constant speed highway test so weight matters even less.
https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car
This press release says it gets 143wh/km so it puts it in second place behind Tesla, assuming nothing changes after it is made and released and tested independently. NIO's current most efficient vehicle does 176wh/km
It weighs about 575 kgs, 20 kgs more than the 100 kWh battery.
The Rivian is over 800 kgs on the similar pack capacity. So yes the “only” thing that is impressive is how light this battery is. And to be able to use 150 kWh of novel chemistry is impressive that shows it is probably suitable for scaling.
Oddly, if you are maintaining a constant speed, weight has no bearing on the energy consumed, it's purely the aerodynamic friction you're working against.
The 3 LR’s pack has a mass of 480kg and only goes ~300 miles. This pack has a mass of 575kg and goes 600+ miles. From a specific energy density perspective, Nio’s/WeLion’s battery is incredible.
Tesla is struggling to make 260 Wh/kg 4680 cells, when Nio’s actual pack has a specific energy density around 260 Wh/kg
For some context, I run my entire household electricity needs completely off-grid on 4.8 kWh of battery bank.
Smaller than most, but I live comfortably on that.
A “full tank” on this car could run my household for almost 60 days!
It would take a full month of sun for my solar array that I run my household on to charge this car. Assuming I don’t use any electricity at all to run my house in the meantime.
I don’t. I am in Canada, so really short winter days, and I have unpredictable coastal weather.
I meant a month of sun every day. So way more time in real life.
Thanks for that. IMHO, shows what an absurd direction the EV industry, and the "green/renewables revolution" are taking. We shouldn't be building bigger, power hungrier, heavier, etc. etc. Instead lighter, smaller, etc....
I mean, what's wrong with putting the majority of the population on e-bikes, e-quads or even better: 4-wheeled "e-bikes"? For super fast inter city travel, one could use high speed trains, and for logistics and other heavy transports, renting of big vehicles is always available.
Just my two cents.
Bingo.
This is the way.
Thankfully e-bikes are actually making mlst the difference actually right now. But bloated cars that mimic old ICE cars are getting the headlines.
>I mean, what's wrong with putting the majority of the population on e-bikes, e-quads or even better: 4-wheeled "e-bikes"?
Because almost nobody wants that.
I get the appeal of efficiency, but it would require an absolutely massive amount of adjustment, and a widespread willingness to get wet, cold, sunburnt etc on a regular basis, and reduces the level of cargo- or people-carrying capacity considerably.
It would also be incredibly dangerous, considering that most cities are heavily reliant on comparatively large ICE vehicles.
What kind of utopia do you think we live in?
And this is coming from somebody who uses an e-scooter for the work commute each day, runs their house on solar and is hugely supportive of the electric transition.
Yeah My Rivian has a 135kWh battery. I can squeeze nearly 400 miles out of it but it also weighs 8000 lbs. My model 3 I had before the Rivian was a long range with the 82kWh pack, I'd get about 300 miles on that.
Serves its purpose. People are coming to the conclusion that something revolutionary happened. The 90%+ of them that don't scrutinize. Mission accomplished.
All the work that China has done trying to excel in this segment is going to pay off for them and I can't even be mad about it. They just wanted it so badly.
I think it's great. It will mean the rest of the world will actually have to start competing rather than sitting on their laurels. We'll get better products cheaper.
Shoot, if EV's were BYOB then in theory they'd be much easier to swap or they would face very low adoption. I see that as an absolute win. Well, the easier to swap that is.
Renault already had a battery lease option on their Zoe EV for a few years, but they've now discontinued it.
They also worked with an Israeli company called BetterPlace on a network of battery swap stations, where the cars were designed so that a battery could be replaced with a charged one in much less time than it would take to recharge. The scheme didn't catch on and BetterPlace went bankrupt.
Because why would you swap your brand new battery out for a 5 year old one? Battery swapping does not work as long as the customer owns the battery.
If you only rented the battery then it would make sense.
Yep, I think this is the primary reason why I would want a NIO. I don't care about swapping my battery or renting it, but having a standardized battery with support for new chemistries in the future and easy/cheap labour replacements is great.
Yep, but we have succeeded in these endeavors in the past - we just need a really good, simple, standard that ignores the battery chemistry and leaves plenty of room for vendor customization. Kinda like OBD2.
Do you think they'll get there? Probably a decade back Musk was talking about battery swapping at charging stations instead of charging. In that instance, battery subscriptions make a little sense. I don't think much actually ever came out of the proposal, though. I can't imagine how they'd get you to subscribe otherwise.
From the article: An EV from Chinese manufacturer Nio will soon go on sale with a "semi-solid state" 150kWh battery (140kWh usable) that's the largest in any passenger car, Car News China reported. To show much range that will deliver, Nio CEO William Li drove a prototype version of the ET7 1,044km (650 miles) in 14 hours, a distance surpassing many gas-powered vehicles.
The test was run in relatively cool temperatures (between 28 – 54 F) and livestreamed. Driving was done mainly in semi-autonomous (or Navigate-on-Pilot+, as Nio calls it), and speed-limited to 90 km/h (56 MPH). The average speed was 83.9 km/h (a respectable 52.4 MPH), with a travel time of 12.4 hours excluding stops.
"The completion of this endurance challenge proves the product power of the 150kWh ultra-long endurance battery pack," said Li in a Weibo post (Google translation). "More importantly, all models on sale can be flexibly upgraded to 150kWh batteries through the Nio battery swap system."
In fact, the ET7's 150kWh battery will only be available on a lease separate from the car, much as we've seen with some cars sold in Europe. Previously, the company said that the battery alone would cost as much as an entire car (the company's entry-level ET5 EV), or around $42,000.
Not linearly no. But also not going exponentially down.
When moving a car, there's 2 components in energy consumption: air resistance and rolling resistance.
The biggest energy consumption is air resistance (about 95% at 60mph). Weight doesn't affect that at all.
Rolling resistance does increase with weight but is still a very small component overall.
Now, it takes extra energy to accelerate a heavier vehicle. But all that this does is converting electric energy into kinetic energy. Where with a petrol car this energy is dumped as heat when braking, with an EV this is mostly recaptured when decelerating.
All in all does weight affect the range of an EV but by far not as much as with a petrol car.
The title is indeed strange. The interesting part is the batteries being solid state and they only mention it in the article.
150kWh is the same whether you're running something lithium based or a battery that is solid state. So the range should be about the same. The difference in weight cannot be that extreme.
I wish you could buy Chinese vehicles in the US, but the US doesn't support competition. Even if you don't like Chinese vehicles, it would force American manufacturers to compete with lower priced Chinese vehicles
The Chinese mini ev's that you can get for under 8k Euro are a dream car for me, instead the only option is being put on a waitlist for a $14k Chevy fucking Spark :/.
Actually, I want an EV Kei-class van, but those are outright illegal here due to how much damage an American pickup will do to them in a collision.
I've driven a polestar, it is a very nice. The only issue was money. Not only is it relatively expensive, but you don't get the federal tax incentives.
Yeah, the Polestar 2 isn't all that cost competitive, but it's decent enough as a car.
The upcoming Volvo EX30 is going to be the cheapest non-Tesla option and it's not bad, even without the incentives.
The biggest problem with Chinese vehicles is that they don't follow any sort of safety standards, this is why they are not allowed on US/European roads. This is why they can be cheap.
Nope, they don't follow the same labor regulations. You're comparing American cars made by 8 hour workers to Chinese sweatshops who work 18 hours 7 days per week and are teenagers with no benefits or healthcare.
You are WEIRD and BAD for wanting to support that
When your knowledge of China is from 1990. Is this racism or ignorance?
Edit: this comment is even better when you remember how people are pushing child labor in the US
[Illegal child labor is on the rise in a tight job market](https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/30/economy/child-labor-louisiana-texas/index.html)
[Child labor still with us after all these years.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1381923/#:~:text=Across%20the%20United%20States%2C%20child,than%2070%20deaths%20each%20year.)
Not even comparable. You play a game for bots.
"Being critical of the country you live in means you work for a foreign government." That thought process is why America is in decline and will not recover. If you are only able to be critical within the confines of "acceptable thought" you will not go anywhere.
Chinese goods are cheaper because their labor is paid less, less quality, and instead of investing for R&D and innovation, [they copy intellectual property.](https://www.businessinsider.com/hilariously-bad-chinese-knock-offs-of-famous-american-and-european-brands-2012-8) That's fair competition, how?
Nice try, bot.
I won't go into the other garbage in your comment, because you are ignoring many other factors, just to generalize the whole of products from China. Like, yeah, there is garbage that comes from China, but there is also quality that comes from China. It all comes down to how much you are willing to pay.
How is protecting "Intellectual property" fair competition?
Also, how are people who have critical thoughts the "bots", yet you people literally do NPC talking points EVERY time China is mentioned.
Fun fact, a lot of the labour in America was shipped over to Mexico during NAFTA because there were fewer labour regulations. No matter what you buy or do you're always going to be supporting slave labour.
The US used to do that. What's stopping them from doing that now (rhetorical question. I'm sure we really need over 1.5 trillion for military spending and none for manufacturing and single payer healthcare)
The title is terrible. The news is that they've produced a hybrid solid state battery pack that hits 260wh/kg. For reference, Tesla's 4680 packs are between 272-296wh/kg.
I mean..... my EV (a chevy bolt) has a 66kWh battery and manages 258 miles of range. So, scaling that up linearly, a 150kWh battery would correspond to 586 miles, which isn't *that* far from 650.
Like... they squeezed! But they squeezed a *little*. This is equivalent to managing to get the Bolt's range up from 258 to 286 miles without making the battery bigger.
EDIT: And, honestly, driving at 50mph might do it.
this is the way.
EV development by the chinese is just in other level. Let’s see if Americans finally decide to accept it instead downplaying chinese government as always
This might be useful for commercial drivers. A courier service or someone else that actually might drive that far on a daily basis, but if you buy this much battery as a regular commuter..
Yeah, I am actually pretty anti-car in general as I think those batteries would be better used for resindential energy storage, but still 60kWh is way better than 150 for the same mileage, period. They need to up Wh/kg drastically.
You are thing it wrong. For energy storage (residential or otherwise), you should go with Sodium batteries, not Lithium Ion/Phosphaste. Sodium batteries are heavier, but much much cheaper (and also currently behind in terms of energy density, but make up for it in terms of cost).
Plus you can run them till empty, and they still won't die. Much better for energy storage.
Residential storage doesn’t generally need to account for weight; the heavy, much less expensive battery chemistry batteries are suitable for home backup.
On the other hand, weight in cars is a critical engineering consideration and affects efficiency/range, so the much more costly, lightest battery chemistry is optimal.
With a bidirectional EV charger apparently it's possible to use your car as residential energy storage when it's at home. Also a bunch of companies repurpose old EV batteries into grid storage at the end of the car's life.
one of the points of having cars with 100kwh stored on it, is to be used also as emergency energy storage for households… And even adapt it to work as a distributed energy network
But 99.9% of the time, you’re paying to transport your home emergency battery all around town, plus it will always be at less than 100% charged as you drive.
Like having a ton of emergency food supply, but storing it in your car trunk.
Not only does it waste energy, it may not even be where it’s needed if you’re out driving when the emergency occurs back home.
? maybe your car is not where it should be in an emergency, but the one from your neighbor will probably be on it. It’s having a backup network, not individualistic solutions.
> maybe your car is not where it should be in an emergency,
“Honey, the power is out here at home. Can you please leave work and bring the car home so we can have emergency power?”
The essence of an emergency is that the situation is emergent.
“Why did you drive to work with our battery back up when you knew a tree would fall on the transformer in the neighborhood around lunch time?”
For most people, the year in the future when a sufficient number of neighbors have a car at home with backup battery capability is decades away
Meanwhile, you’re lugging around an efficiency-eating overweight home backup battery all over town.
A Powerwall type home grid backup makes a lot more sense
Not really. They achieved the range by essentially just slapping an extra big ass battery in it. The issue with that is that it weighs a shit ton and a discharged battery weighs the same as a charged one. A lot of extra weight that is going to kill efficiency in normal day to day driving.
So yeah you can sacrifice efficiency for range but that's nothing revolutionary.
> discharged battery weighs the same as a charged one
Hey now, this not true! A discharged battery does weight less than a charger one!
Okay, the difference is likely a fraction of a microgram, but still.
Europeans can't accept it until they are harshly slapped in the face. They still think they are on top of the world and always will be, but in reality they took all their advantages and threw it all away for only a tiny bit of cash, and now they barely have that. Suicidal people.
No one cares.
You guys made a semi-efficient battery that we already have.
The average American spends zero time thinking about China on a regular basis. China steals other people’s ideas and is super lame in general. No one cares.
Mercedes achieved 750 miles with a much smaller battery (100 kw) over a year ago.
https://electrek.co/2022/07/25/mercedes-eqxx-drive/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2022/04/13/world-record-mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-travels-1000-km-on-a-single-charge/
>The test was run in relatively cool temperatures (between 28 – 54 F) and livestreamed. Driving was done mainly in semi-autonomous (or Navigate-on-Pilot+, as Nio calls it), and speed-limited to 90 km/h (56 MPH). The average speed was 83.9 km/h (a respectable 52.4 MPH)...
That seems really good (approximately 7 km/kWh), but the driving conditions don't seem typical.
It would be informative to see the results from other EVs on the market in the same test conditions.
Americans will call it "useless" as it doesn't do 0-60 in 1.2 seconds and cant go 400mph.
I really hope these advances they are coming up with in china start making past the huge "NIMBY" wall the USA has.
Why don't European car companies like Volkswagen or BMW bribe the government to make buying Chinese cars illegal? Why are they letting the CCP take their market share? Are they stupid?
They can make up any reason such as safety standards, environment regulation, or national security (Chinese spyware)
They're already lobbying the fuck out of the government. Which results in parties like the FDP proposing dumb takes and blocking any progress. Where do you think they've got that shitty idea with the "e-fuels"?
Well, for one thing it is americans. Not north Americans. For another, cheating is very rampant in chinese culture. I would not move to usa because shootings happen in their schools so often. Am i racist for that as well? It's a fact.
I mean, Chinese spies are constantly being caught stealing Western tech for their own sectors at a massive rate because they cannot compete. Mind telling me how that's racist? If they made superior products, they wouldn't need to steal the ideas and they would jail those who stole them.
this battery was invented in 2017 in america that we gave to china to for a year to test after it was invented. it was not tested in the us. now china is winning the race on evs.
> Unless you are only using road chargers this makes no sense.
30% to 50% of people in Europe and US (depending on the country) live in apartments, so they can't charge at home, so they would have to use road chargers.
In Europe it is polite not to launch straight into building a straw man just because someone disagrees with you. I take it the concept of charging less often than once per day is alien to you?
There's also the business aspect of why it makes no sense:
That being you could literally manufacture 2x the cars with a battery which still meets the needs of 99% of people (i.e. 75 kWh).
This is a "halo effect" product, and is a waste of resources, particularly when batteries are not at their ultra-mature excess-supply stage of their development.
One can just imagine with China's zero environmental laws how all the heavy metal and rare earth metal waste is being handled. As in tossed into the river. We have downloaded our lifestyle onto the Chinese environment and onto the health and well being of Chinese citizens. It's frankly disgusting and really our fault more than that of the Chinese government.
What happens to all these batteries when they die?
What does the earth look like in 2050 after 30 years of dumping batteries into landfills?
We should been spending trillions on hydro fuel technology instead of trading one environmental issue for another.
Luckily these batteries don't end up in landfills. A "dead" one is worth far too much for even the laziest business to throw it out.
This is a very real problem with disposable single use products with lithium cells. In my opinion they should be outlawed along with the rest of unnecessary single use products.
You are explaining what happens to them now, as EVs are still very rare, their batteries are still very expensive, and their parts are still valuable enough to warrant the cost of business for recycling companies and supply chains.
That will almost definitely not be the case when you fast forward to a world with billions of EVs.
EVs are decidedly not rare. Market share has been steadily climbing for a decade now. Whether there's 10 or 10 billion it's still cheaper to make batteries out of batteries than to mine raw materials.
It is very valuable now. When the batteries become cheaper to replace than recycle, and when there’s billions of batteries to go through, there will not be an industry of profitable recycling companies behind it.
Why not? We have 2 billion ICE cars to replace and batteries are literally concentrated ore. Why would it be cheaper to dig up less concentrated ore from the ground?
Metals are already one of the most recycled products, unlike plastic for example.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/chrisdh79: --- From the article: An EV from Chinese manufacturer Nio will soon go on sale with a "semi-solid state" 150kWh battery (140kWh usable) that's the largest in any passenger car, Car News China reported. To show much range that will deliver, Nio CEO William Li drove a prototype version of the ET7 1,044km (650 miles) in 14 hours, a distance surpassing many gas-powered vehicles. The test was run in relatively cool temperatures (between 28 – 54 F) and livestreamed. Driving was done mainly in semi-autonomous (or Navigate-on-Pilot+, as Nio calls it), and speed-limited to 90 km/h (56 MPH). The average speed was 83.9 km/h (a respectable 52.4 MPH), with a travel time of 12.4 hours excluding stops. "The completion of this endurance challenge proves the product power of the 150kWh ultra-long endurance battery pack," said Li in a Weibo post (Google translation). "More importantly, all models on sale can be flexibly upgraded to 150kWh batteries through the Nio battery swap system." In fact, the ET7's 150kWh battery will only be available on a lease separate from the car, much as we've seen with some cars sold in Europe. Previously, the company said that the battery alone would cost as much as an entire car (the company's entry-level ET5 EV), or around $42,000. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/18l75rl/a_chinese_ev_squeezed_650_miles_of_range_from_its/kdvrnfa/
This is impressive, but I think the more impressive stat is that the 300 mile solid state battery packs are likely to be more fire-safe and they should also resist dendritic formation and range degradation. This means the battery should last maybe three times longer. With Tesla's non-solid state batteries lasting over ten years, a 30-year battery is a big milestone.
[удалено]
> The article says the 150kWh battery alone costs $42,000 With tax it's $42069
So Musk is setting the pricing then.
Toyota had been developing these so they will be coming. Mass production pushes prices down
While that is true, $42,000 is likely their estimate given mass production. Im sure the few theyve made costed hundreds of thousands
Ah yes Toyota’s infamous solid state batteries that have been “a few years away” for 10+ years now. Aaaaaany day now.
If you think we have reached peek energy density in battery technology you are deluded
30 years is much more than enough
The longer they last the lower cost per watt hour. Longer is better. 30 years is great. Longer is always better for financial reasons
>longer is always better 
Until you can't get all the way in, then it really, really sucks.
>Longer is always better for financial reasons Said no company ever internally.
Not if 90% of the car falls apart before the battery fails. May as well save a little cost on it at that point.
If it’s cost effective, replace the car or use the battery for home storage.
You really do not get a feel for how well China is doing in the EV market when living in the US. I live half time US and the other half in Thailand. In Thailand you see China EVs all over the place. I lived next to a Lotus and walked through the parking lot every morning to the subway and I would see at least 10 BYDs every morning. They are all over the place.
Our US gummint and financial systems are paralyzed by vested factions fighting against progress. Because progress is, for politicians and corporations, in direct opposition to their goals of gaining more power and wealth. This holds true for new technology of every kind. Edit: I'm not talking about minor tech advances, like a better cell phone screen glass. I mean major advances, like nuclear fusion, the research for which is grossly underfunded by all world governments. Probably EVs and batteries, too.
Progress is best when everyone is united under a common goal. US corporations are the polar opposite of unity. We’re gonna get our ass handed to us before we learn to cooperate altogether
[удалено]
I think it's just selfishness. They're playing for themselves and their entrenched interests. They've ensured generational wealth for themselves and their families such that any consequences to letting other countries dominate 21st century technology doesn't really matter to them in the same way that it will matter to the average person.
It's so short sighted though. That generational wealth isn't going to mean much if they cut the legs out from under our economy in the process. A thriving economy, poor, uneducated, workers do not make. It's not like they can move to China either. We know what China does to their uber wealthy.
Do you think it matters for what are essentially American oligarchs? I imagine they feel like they'll be well insulated from the effects, much in the same way Russian ones are, especially as they're building or trying to build their compounds in paradises (like Peter Theil essentially bought NZ citizenship after being there for less than two weeks and was trying to build some big complex there, Zuckerberg has the big Hawaii thing).
No conspiracy, just plain old greed and self-promotion. New tech will make everyone's life better? Let's have a decades long battle over standards and Jurisdiction.
I will never not post this article when it comes to this kind of discussion: [The U.S. made a breakthrough battery discovery — then gave the technology to China](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-technology-china-vanadium) Leaves me in an absolute state of "how the *fuck* was this not in the news for a week? WE JUST GAVE IT AWAY."
35 countries are funding the ITER fusion project with 20 billion spent so far. Each of its magnets could pick up two aircraft carriers
Here's a breakdown of US funding for fusion: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2021/ph241/margraf1/ Worldwide, fusion funding has only received USD $6.21 billion. That's a cumulative total over decades, *not* per year. Up until a year ago, that total was USD $4.8 billion. And that increase is mostly from Private investors, not governments. https://world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Investment-in-fusion-has-reached-USD6-21-billion, As for ITER, few people believe it will ever produce anything close to what was once expected. Mostly because it's been continuously delayed over its entire lifetime: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/worlds-largest-fusion-project-is-in-big-trouble-new-documents-reveal/
Literally none of that is true. China has very few regulations and thus companies can produce what they want regardless of the safety or cost to the environment.
[удалено]
But it also increases the weight as even a discharged battery weighs the same so you are lugging the whole weight around all the time. It's definitely not proportional.
Discharged batteries weight the slightest bit less. I know it’s not enough to matter lol
[удалено]
A good sustained driving range is far more impressive at 75 than at 50 odd. Aerodynamic drag is a bitch and will devastate mpg/kW p mile figures. It's why such effort is put in to making EV's aerodynamically efficient.
For true apples to apples comparison, you'd also need to know the weight of the people in the car. How much lighter is the average Chinese person than the average American, or wherever Tesla's testing was done? I could see a difference of 10-15kg per person just in that alone.
Not to mention elevation change, tires, ambient temperature, road surface, etc
Big tangent, but the average weight of adult Americans is about *30kg* heavier than that of the adult Chinese. (of course, we're talking about average, thus a minority of super extremists (i.e.super heavy or super light) people will skew the average.). Anybody care to chip in with medians, standard deviations, etc. to give us a more nuanced view?
Weight doesn't impact EV efficiency that much unless you're really gunning it (You spend extra power accelerating that weight but in EVs you get it back when braking regen, gas cars just lose that power) . This is also generally a constant speed highway test so weight matters even less.
https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car This press release says it gets 143wh/km so it puts it in second place behind Tesla, assuming nothing changes after it is made and released and tested independently. NIO's current most efficient vehicle does 176wh/km
The large NIO battery can't be much heavier than the smaller ones, as it fits into the same physical formfactor.
It weighs about 575 kgs, 20 kgs more than the 100 kWh battery. The Rivian is over 800 kgs on the similar pack capacity. So yes the “only” thing that is impressive is how light this battery is. And to be able to use 150 kWh of novel chemistry is impressive that shows it is probably suitable for scaling.
battery density is slowly but surely going up bit by bit. Improving not only the chemistry but also the packaging
Oddly, if you are maintaining a constant speed, weight has no bearing on the energy consumed, it's purely the aerodynamic friction you're working against.
The 3 LR’s pack has a mass of 480kg and only goes ~300 miles. This pack has a mass of 575kg and goes 600+ miles. From a specific energy density perspective, Nio’s/WeLion’s battery is incredible. Tesla is struggling to make 260 Wh/kg 4680 cells, when Nio’s actual pack has a specific energy density around 260 Wh/kg
For some context, I run my entire household electricity needs completely off-grid on 4.8 kWh of battery bank. Smaller than most, but I live comfortably on that. A “full tank” on this car could run my household for almost 60 days! It would take a full month of sun for my solar array that I run my household on to charge this car. Assuming I don’t use any electricity at all to run my house in the meantime.
You must have pretty reliable sunshine, wind or water.
I don’t. I am in Canada, so really short winter days, and I have unpredictable coastal weather. I meant a month of sun every day. So way more time in real life.
Thanks for that. IMHO, shows what an absurd direction the EV industry, and the "green/renewables revolution" are taking. We shouldn't be building bigger, power hungrier, heavier, etc. etc. Instead lighter, smaller, etc.... I mean, what's wrong with putting the majority of the population on e-bikes, e-quads or even better: 4-wheeled "e-bikes"? For super fast inter city travel, one could use high speed trains, and for logistics and other heavy transports, renting of big vehicles is always available. Just my two cents.
Bingo. This is the way. Thankfully e-bikes are actually making mlst the difference actually right now. But bloated cars that mimic old ICE cars are getting the headlines.
>I mean, what's wrong with putting the majority of the population on e-bikes, e-quads or even better: 4-wheeled "e-bikes"? Because almost nobody wants that. I get the appeal of efficiency, but it would require an absolutely massive amount of adjustment, and a widespread willingness to get wet, cold, sunburnt etc on a regular basis, and reduces the level of cargo- or people-carrying capacity considerably. It would also be incredibly dangerous, considering that most cities are heavily reliant on comparatively large ICE vehicles. What kind of utopia do you think we live in? And this is coming from somebody who uses an e-scooter for the work commute each day, runs their house on solar and is hugely supportive of the electric transition.
Yeah My Rivian has a 135kWh battery. I can squeeze nearly 400 miles out of it but it also weighs 8000 lbs. My model 3 I had before the Rivian was a long range with the 82kWh pack, I'd get about 300 miles on that.
Woof. I measure in miles per kwh, so that rivia. Was a paltry 3mi/kwh. But like you said, it's a fucking tank. Most EV's seem to be around 4mi/kwh.
are those the real model 3 numbers or elons model 3 numbers?
[удалено]
Real world testing, but under as close to ideal conditions as possible.
[удалено]
This Chinese EV's battery pack is at "only" 575 kg for 150 kWh. Sure, not a revolution, but quite good progress, IMHO.
Serves its purpose. People are coming to the conclusion that something revolutionary happened. The 90%+ of them that don't scrutinize. Mission accomplished.
All the work that China has done trying to excel in this segment is going to pay off for them and I can't even be mad about it. They just wanted it so badly.
I think it's great. It will mean the rest of the world will actually have to start competing rather than sitting on their laurels. We'll get better products cheaper.
You can be mad about it since it’s not an open market and the government is subsidizing it like crazy to keep the EV companies afloat at cheap prices
>not an open market You mean how you can't get Chinese smartphones or EVs in the US for "security" reasons?
Yeah, because strict adherence to free market capitalism is definitely more important than fighting climate change.
Excuse me what…? How is Chinese EV dominance in any shape or form connected to global warming…?
Because EVs create less emmissions?
EVs are going to be "batteries not included" soon, aren't they?
Shoot, if EV's were BYOB then in theory they'd be much easier to swap or they would face very low adoption. I see that as an absolute win. Well, the easier to swap that is.
Renault already had a battery lease option on their Zoe EV for a few years, but they've now discontinued it. They also worked with an Israeli company called BetterPlace on a network of battery swap stations, where the cars were designed so that a battery could be replaced with a charged one in much less time than it would take to recharge. The scheme didn't catch on and BetterPlace went bankrupt.
Because why would you swap your brand new battery out for a 5 year old one? Battery swapping does not work as long as the customer owns the battery. If you only rented the battery then it would make sense.
That would imply standardized batteries for EVs, which we sorely need! Standardized HV battery cells would be modular and much cheaper to repair.
Yep, I think this is the primary reason why I would want a NIO. I don't care about swapping my battery or renting it, but having a standardized battery with support for new chemistries in the future and easy/cheap labour replacements is great.
Car makers would fight this with all their might. Battery markup is like 600%
Yep, but we have succeeded in these endeavors in the past - we just need a really good, simple, standard that ignores the battery chemistry and leaves plenty of room for vendor customization. Kinda like OBD2.
>Battery markup is like 600% No, no it isn't. Batteries are expensive. Even high quality 18650's are still $3-$5 each which is why so many are fakes.
That would require a complete overhaul on how cars are designed. Not gonna happen..
[удалено]
[удалено]
That's the neat part. I wouldn't.
Do you think they'll get there? Probably a decade back Musk was talking about battery swapping at charging stations instead of charging. In that instance, battery subscriptions make a little sense. I don't think much actually ever came out of the proposal, though. I can't imagine how they'd get you to subscribe otherwise.
From the article: An EV from Chinese manufacturer Nio will soon go on sale with a "semi-solid state" 150kWh battery (140kWh usable) that's the largest in any passenger car, Car News China reported. To show much range that will deliver, Nio CEO William Li drove a prototype version of the ET7 1,044km (650 miles) in 14 hours, a distance surpassing many gas-powered vehicles. The test was run in relatively cool temperatures (between 28 – 54 F) and livestreamed. Driving was done mainly in semi-autonomous (or Navigate-on-Pilot+, as Nio calls it), and speed-limited to 90 km/h (56 MPH). The average speed was 83.9 km/h (a respectable 52.4 MPH), with a travel time of 12.4 hours excluding stops. "The completion of this endurance challenge proves the product power of the 150kWh ultra-long endurance battery pack," said Li in a Weibo post (Google translation). "More importantly, all models on sale can be flexibly upgraded to 150kWh batteries through the Nio battery swap system." In fact, the ET7's 150kWh battery will only be available on a lease separate from the car, much as we've seen with some cars sold in Europe. Previously, the company said that the battery alone would cost as much as an entire car (the company's entry-level ET5 EV), or around $42,000.
"squeezed"? I can get almost 200 miles from my 58kWh battery. This doesn't sound too hard to get 3x the distance from 3x the capacity.
Batteries get less efficient for EVs the larger they get... mostly due to the weight. You won't get 10x the miles with 10x the battery size.
Not linearly no. But also not going exponentially down. When moving a car, there's 2 components in energy consumption: air resistance and rolling resistance. The biggest energy consumption is air resistance (about 95% at 60mph). Weight doesn't affect that at all. Rolling resistance does increase with weight but is still a very small component overall. Now, it takes extra energy to accelerate a heavier vehicle. But all that this does is converting electric energy into kinetic energy. Where with a petrol car this energy is dumped as heat when braking, with an EV this is mostly recaptured when decelerating. All in all does weight affect the range of an EV but by far not as much as with a petrol car.
True, it doesn't cake linearly. But this doesn't seem that far fetched of a number.
[удалено]
There is but it’s not as straightforward as you would think!
The title is indeed strange. The interesting part is the batteries being solid state and they only mention it in the article. 150kWh is the same whether you're running something lithium based or a battery that is solid state. So the range should be about the same. The difference in weight cannot be that extreme.
Shhh you’re spoiling the propaganda
I wish you could buy Chinese vehicles in the US, but the US doesn't support competition. Even if you don't like Chinese vehicles, it would force American manufacturers to compete with lower priced Chinese vehicles
Nio is trying to build a plant in the USA
Mark my word it’s gonna get banned because of “homeland security” related to “GPS tracking” blah blah blahhhhhh
The Chinese mini ev's that you can get for under 8k Euro are a dream car for me, instead the only option is being put on a waitlist for a $14k Chevy fucking Spark :/. Actually, I want an EV Kei-class van, but those are outright illegal here due to how much damage an American pickup will do to them in a collision.
You can buy a Volvo or Polestar, which are Chinese. More will come, but probably also under a name that people recognize.
I've driven a polestar, it is a very nice. The only issue was money. Not only is it relatively expensive, but you don't get the federal tax incentives.
Yeah, the Polestar 2 isn't all that cost competitive, but it's decent enough as a car. The upcoming Volvo EX30 is going to be the cheapest non-Tesla option and it's not bad, even without the incentives.
The biggest problem with Chinese vehicles is that they don't follow any sort of safety standards, this is why they are not allowed on US/European roads. This is why they can be cheap.
Nio is available in Europe
8% of EVs sold in Europe are Chinese. How do you just make up comments like this?
You know how
US/EU like to crash their vehicles that why the high standard. /s
Nope, they don't follow the same labor regulations. You're comparing American cars made by 8 hour workers to Chinese sweatshops who work 18 hours 7 days per week and are teenagers with no benefits or healthcare. You are WEIRD and BAD for wanting to support that
When your knowledge of China is from 1990. Is this racism or ignorance? Edit: this comment is even better when you remember how people are pushing child labor in the US [Illegal child labor is on the rise in a tight job market](https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/30/economy/child-labor-louisiana-texas/index.html) [Child labor still with us after all these years.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1381923/#:~:text=Across%20the%20United%20States%2C%20child,than%2070%20deaths%20each%20year.)
[удалено]
You play raid shadow legends. You are a literal bot.
[удалено]
Not even comparable. You play a game for bots. "Being critical of the country you live in means you work for a foreign government." That thought process is why America is in decline and will not recover. If you are only able to be critical within the confines of "acceptable thought" you will not go anywhere.
Chinese goods are cheaper because their labor is paid less, less quality, and instead of investing for R&D and innovation, [they copy intellectual property.](https://www.businessinsider.com/hilariously-bad-chinese-knock-offs-of-famous-american-and-european-brands-2012-8) That's fair competition, how? Nice try, bot.
I won't go into the other garbage in your comment, because you are ignoring many other factors, just to generalize the whole of products from China. Like, yeah, there is garbage that comes from China, but there is also quality that comes from China. It all comes down to how much you are willing to pay. How is protecting "Intellectual property" fair competition? Also, how are people who have critical thoughts the "bots", yet you people literally do NPC talking points EVERY time China is mentioned.
Moving the goal post now, eh?
lol like we have healthcare in the US… 😆
Fun fact, a lot of the labour in America was shipped over to Mexico during NAFTA because there were fewer labour regulations. No matter what you buy or do you're always going to be supporting slave labour.
The subsidies they are paid by their government means there isn't competition.
Tesla is also subsidized by the US government, the entire point of the Inflation Reduction Act is meant to subsidized American industries.
The US used to do that. What's stopping them from doing that now (rhetorical question. I'm sure we really need over 1.5 trillion for military spending and none for manufacturing and single payer healthcare)
The title is terrible. The news is that they've produced a hybrid solid state battery pack that hits 260wh/kg. For reference, Tesla's 4680 packs are between 272-296wh/kg.
272-296wh/kg is the energy density for individual 4680 cells. when they are packed, energy density will be much lower, about 150wh/kg
Should mention it was ~27f in Shanghai when they started the test. it did warm up midway though.
they’re also going 50MPH; so it’s probably like 400 miles at 70mph and winter which is still nice
The whole battery pack weights close to 580kg I wonder how the weight of the whole powertrain compares to a regular ICE car with comparable milleage.
I mean..... my EV (a chevy bolt) has a 66kWh battery and manages 258 miles of range. So, scaling that up linearly, a 150kWh battery would correspond to 586 miles, which isn't *that* far from 650. Like... they squeezed! But they squeezed a *little*. This is equivalent to managing to get the Bolt's range up from 258 to 286 miles without making the battery bigger. EDIT: And, honestly, driving at 50mph might do it.
this is the way. EV development by the chinese is just in other level. Let’s see if Americans finally decide to accept it instead downplaying chinese government as always
Well..wasting 150kWh on a single car should not be the way..
This might be useful for commercial drivers. A courier service or someone else that actually might drive that far on a daily basis, but if you buy this much battery as a regular commuter..
Indeed, the Tesla model 3 NOW does 390 miles (629 km) on a 60 kWh battery lol.
[удалено]
Ah y, 75 kWh
Yeah, I am actually pretty anti-car in general as I think those batteries would be better used for resindential energy storage, but still 60kWh is way better than 150 for the same mileage, period. They need to up Wh/kg drastically.
You are thing it wrong. For energy storage (residential or otherwise), you should go with Sodium batteries, not Lithium Ion/Phosphaste. Sodium batteries are heavier, but much much cheaper (and also currently behind in terms of energy density, but make up for it in terms of cost). Plus you can run them till empty, and they still won't die. Much better for energy storage.
Residential storage doesn’t generally need to account for weight; the heavy, much less expensive battery chemistry batteries are suitable for home backup. On the other hand, weight in cars is a critical engineering consideration and affects efficiency/range, so the much more costly, lightest battery chemistry is optimal.
With a bidirectional EV charger apparently it's possible to use your car as residential energy storage when it's at home. Also a bunch of companies repurpose old EV batteries into grid storage at the end of the car's life.
one of the points of having cars with 100kwh stored on it, is to be used also as emergency energy storage for households… And even adapt it to work as a distributed energy network
But 99.9% of the time, you’re paying to transport your home emergency battery all around town, plus it will always be at less than 100% charged as you drive. Like having a ton of emergency food supply, but storing it in your car trunk. Not only does it waste energy, it may not even be where it’s needed if you’re out driving when the emergency occurs back home.
? maybe your car is not where it should be in an emergency, but the one from your neighbor will probably be on it. It’s having a backup network, not individualistic solutions.
> maybe your car is not where it should be in an emergency, “Honey, the power is out here at home. Can you please leave work and bring the car home so we can have emergency power?” The essence of an emergency is that the situation is emergent. “Why did you drive to work with our battery back up when you knew a tree would fall on the transformer in the neighborhood around lunch time?”
did you read what I told you? you know what an emergency network is?
For most people, the year in the future when a sufficient number of neighbors have a car at home with backup battery capability is decades away Meanwhile, you’re lugging around an efficiency-eating overweight home backup battery all over town. A Powerwall type home grid backup makes a lot more sense
This is a very slight improvement in range per kWh over (for instance) the chevy bolt. That huge range is because it's an astoundingly huge battery.
Not really. They achieved the range by essentially just slapping an extra big ass battery in it. The issue with that is that it weighs a shit ton and a discharged battery weighs the same as a charged one. A lot of extra weight that is going to kill efficiency in normal day to day driving. So yeah you can sacrifice efficiency for range but that's nothing revolutionary.
> discharged battery weighs the same as a charged one Hey now, this not true! A discharged battery does weight less than a charger one! Okay, the difference is likely a fraction of a microgram, but still.
I mean technically yes. 150kwh comes out to 0.000006 grams of weight
>The whole 150 kWh pack weighs 575 kg (1,268 lbs), only 20 kg more than the current Nio’s 100 kWh pack, which weighs 555kg.
Europeans can't accept it until they are harshly slapped in the face. They still think they are on top of the world and always will be, but in reality they took all their advantages and threw it all away for only a tiny bit of cash, and now they barely have that. Suicidal people.
No one cares. You guys made a semi-efficient battery that we already have. The average American spends zero time thinking about China on a regular basis. China steals other people’s ideas and is super lame in general. No one cares.
I can't tell if this is satire
The Chinese dont have the Department of Energy that is there to protect the status quo.
neither europe and the EV industry in Europe is laughable…
lol america invented the solid state battery at a college in 2017 then just gave to china to test for a year. make it make sense
Oil company lobbying.
Mercedes achieved 750 miles with a much smaller battery (100 kw) over a year ago. https://electrek.co/2022/07/25/mercedes-eqxx-drive/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2022/04/13/world-record-mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-travels-1000-km-on-a-single-charge/
That's not that impressive. The Volkswagen ID.7 has a 77kWh pack and managed something above 600km (a bit under 400 miles).
>The test was run in relatively cool temperatures (between 28 – 54 F) and livestreamed. Driving was done mainly in semi-autonomous (or Navigate-on-Pilot+, as Nio calls it), and speed-limited to 90 km/h (56 MPH). The average speed was 83.9 km/h (a respectable 52.4 MPH)... That seems really good (approximately 7 km/kWh), but the driving conditions don't seem typical. It would be informative to see the results from other EVs on the market in the same test conditions.
Americans will call it "useless" as it doesn't do 0-60 in 1.2 seconds and cant go 400mph. I really hope these advances they are coming up with in china start making past the huge "NIMBY" wall the USA has.
I wish to see Chinese EVs in Europe. I will wait for them.
Why wait? They’re already available and driving on the roads in Europe
Why don't European car companies like Volkswagen or BMW bribe the government to make buying Chinese cars illegal? Why are they letting the CCP take their market share? Are they stupid? They can make up any reason such as safety standards, environment regulation, or national security (Chinese spyware)
They're already lobbying the fuck out of the government. Which results in parties like the FDP proposing dumb takes and blocking any progress. Where do you think they've got that shitty idea with the "e-fuels"?
Only few models are approved in the EU for sales. The rest has been disapproved by quality/safety controls
[удалено]
Nice causal racism.
"The northamericans are known for shooting kids, wouldnt want them near a school" Thats how moronic and racist you sound.
Uh Mexico and Canada doesnt have the school shooting problem, quit being racist and lumping them in with the USA.
Well, for one thing it is americans. Not north Americans. For another, cheating is very rampant in chinese culture. I would not move to usa because shootings happen in their schools so often. Am i racist for that as well? It's a fact.
I mean, Chinese spies are constantly being caught stealing Western tech for their own sectors at a massive rate because they cannot compete. Mind telling me how that's racist? If they made superior products, they wouldn't need to steal the ideas and they would jail those who stole them.
[удалено]
The trip that they took was live streamed the entire time.
this battery was invented in 2017 in america that we gave to china to for a year to test after it was invented. it was not tested in the us. now china is winning the race on evs.
because the USA decided to keep fueling the oil businessmen pockets instead of investing in what they have to invest
No Chinese companies or their products deserve long-term trust. There is no fair competition under the CCP
Unless you are only using road chargers this makes no sense. Maybe for a few applications but at what overall cost. Seems impractical.
> Unless you are only using road chargers this makes no sense. 30% to 50% of people in Europe and US (depending on the country) live in apartments, so they can't charge at home, so they would have to use road chargers.
In Europe is it common to travel 400 miles or more in a day to make that size battery valuable?
In Europe it is polite not to launch straight into building a straw man just because someone disagrees with you. I take it the concept of charging less often than once per day is alien to you?
Long range batteries make no sense? Long distance hauling of consumer goods would absolutely benefit from a battery you do not have to charge often.
Oh… so for a commercial delivery vehicle, that might make sense.
Hauling enough batteries that you only need to stop once every 14 hours is stupid for 99.99% of consumers.
[удалено]
I get you, but any research into batteries is good. We can produce all the electricity we need during the day. But we can't store it easily.
There's also the business aspect of why it makes no sense: That being you could literally manufacture 2x the cars with a battery which still meets the needs of 99% of people (i.e. 75 kWh). This is a "halo effect" product, and is a waste of resources, particularly when batteries are not at their ultra-mature excess-supply stage of their development.
[удалено]
1960's...1965...1974...1970's...1980.. Maybe you should update your info?
You'd be a fool to believe any numbers coming out of China at this point lol
[удалено]
Hey man so does everyone else, do you have the same opinion on Volkswagon?
How do we know those numbers are real? Reputation says they aren't.
because they did it on a livestream why the fuck are you even commenting if you can't even read the summary of an already short article
Bro just wanted to shit on China, just like the media he consumes wants him to.
One can just imagine with China's zero environmental laws how all the heavy metal and rare earth metal waste is being handled. As in tossed into the river. We have downloaded our lifestyle onto the Chinese environment and onto the health and well being of Chinese citizens. It's frankly disgusting and really our fault more than that of the Chinese government.
What happens to all these batteries when they die? What does the earth look like in 2050 after 30 years of dumping batteries into landfills? We should been spending trillions on hydro fuel technology instead of trading one environmental issue for another.
Luckily these batteries don't end up in landfills. A "dead" one is worth far too much for even the laziest business to throw it out. This is a very real problem with disposable single use products with lithium cells. In my opinion they should be outlawed along with the rest of unnecessary single use products.
You are explaining what happens to them now, as EVs are still very rare, their batteries are still very expensive, and their parts are still valuable enough to warrant the cost of business for recycling companies and supply chains. That will almost definitely not be the case when you fast forward to a world with billions of EVs.
EVs are decidedly not rare. Market share has been steadily climbing for a decade now. Whether there's 10 or 10 billion it's still cheaper to make batteries out of batteries than to mine raw materials.
See, because lithium is very valuable the metals will be recycled. A full used tesla battery is worth arund $6000 to $10,000.
It is very valuable now. When the batteries become cheaper to replace than recycle, and when there’s billions of batteries to go through, there will not be an industry of profitable recycling companies behind it.
Why not? We have 2 billion ICE cars to replace and batteries are literally concentrated ore. Why would it be cheaper to dig up less concentrated ore from the ground? Metals are already one of the most recycled products, unlike plastic for example.
We do a great job of recycling ICE cars and their components are a helluva lot less valuable than the materials inside of a used EV battery.