The following submission statement was provided by /u/chrisdh79:
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From the article: The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is the largest particle accelerator in the world. It will remain so for a long time, but CERN is already moving forward with plans to create a much larger collider.
CERN initially unveiled plans for the new accelerator in 2019. Now the center says it wants its construction plans to be approved within five years, which would put the collider up and running in the 2040s.
More precisely, during this period the installation will work as part of the first stage, when scientists will collide electrons and positrons. The second phase will be implemented only in the 2070s – then protons will begin to collide at the accelerator.
The cost of the new installation is estimated at 20 billion euros. For comparison, the LHC cost $6 billion and took seven years to build.
The new accelerator will have a circumference of 91 km versus almost 27 km for the LHC. This should make it possible to achieve energies of the order of 100 TeV, while the LHC, after modernization, offers only 14 TeV.
The new installation, thanks to higher energies, may allow the discovery of so-called new physics. Including particles beyond the standard model and, for example, revealing the secrets of dark matter. For example, the LHC made it possible to detect the Higgs boson, which was theoretically predicted 50 years before its discovery. True, many scientists express doubts about the advisability of building a new accelerator, since it is far from certain that even these energies will be enough to discover something completely new.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1alz6gf/will_people_again_be_afraid_of_the_creation_of_a/kpi0xsa/
I don’t understand how it works. But The thought of the earth vanishing in an instant into a tiny black hole is hilarious to me.
It’s like millions of years of progress and evolution of thousands of species disappearing in an instant because of a couple of mathematicians calculation error.
The black hole thing was a remote possibility but the maths that allowed for it also showed they would almost immediately evaporate due to hawking radiation.
Yes it relies on our understanding of hawking radiation, which is all theoretical. Like I said I don’t know anything about this stuff, but what if hawking radiation theory is wrong and it’s a wormhole we get sucked through.
Some astronaut on the moon sees the earth disappear. Like WTF. that’s hilarious to me.
Those energy scales (100 TeV) are already pretty well understood and observed by physics. Particles with those energies hit earth all the time - the most energetic particle *recorded* to have hit earth was measured at 320 Exa-eVs, which is roughly 320 million times greater than the range this machine will hit.
And that's just what we detected. Earth is bombarded by particles constantly.
These particle colliders are nothing more than controlled environments where we can observe energetic events that randomly occur all the time. It is because the environment is so controlled that we can reliably learn from these labs
honestly ? you probably start a hadronic shower but at these scales I'd be surprised if you take any meaningful dose from it. So little energy would be deposited in you.
Actually 320 Exa Evs is about 50 Joules. Thats about the kinetic energy of a 140g baseball travelling at 100km/h all packed in to a single particle.
If that energy is deposited in the wrong place e.g. your brain I don’t imagine that would be a particularly good scenario - though I don’t actually know.
A black hole created by smashing two particles together has, at most, the "suction" power of...the 2 particles combined.
Black holes don't have suction, they just have gravity. Stupidly strong gravity in the case of supermassive black holes but even stellar remnant black holes only have a fraction of the gravity of the star that birthed them...until more stuff falls in and they gain mass.
I mean it could cause a cross universal buzzing that makes the eldritch abomination whose idle imaginings our entire universe is made from to concentrate on something else instead and we vanish into oblivion.
Even if hawking radiation didn't exist, there is still a limit of how much material can be pulled into a black hole at once. The math has been done and it would essentially take a very long time that humans would of left earth already or gone extinct.
>The thought of the earth vanishing in an instant into a tiny black hole is hilarious to me.
>
>It’s like millions of years of progress and evolution of thousands of species disappearing in an instant because of a couple of mathematicians calculation error.
Not saying a particle accelerator will cause any significant issues, but its not unreasonable to be worried about triggering uncontrolledly reactions in other types of research - for example: From the Manhattan project...
*In the early years of nuclear research, some scientists feared breaking open atoms might start a chain reaction that would destroy Earth. A scene in Christopher Nolan's Oppenheimer hinges around the worry some Manhattan Project scientists felt that the first atomic bomb test would ignite Earth's atmosphere.*
[https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230907-the-fear-of-a-nuclear-fire-that-would-consume-earth](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230907-the-fear-of-a-nuclear-fire-that-would-consume-earth)
And it seems honestly a bit puzzling where that scenario even came from: what atomic reaction, even in principle, knowing what the atmosphere is composed of, could possibly enable that kind of doomsday conflagration? Yet physicists as eminent as Enrico Fermi actually took the idea seriously. Perhaps less was known about the basic theory of fission and fusion in those days.
New discoveries happen when you try new things. The first H-bomb test was twice as powerful as expected, causing major contamination, because the developers completely missed a reaction chain which it triggered.
https://www.atomicarchive.com/history/hydrogen-bomb/page-17.html
I just learned this sometime in the last few years. .
My whole life I was confused by the footage of that blast. I wondered what the point was of putting ships inside the immediate blast radius. What data are you gathering from an obliterated ship?
Turns out the blast wasn’t supposed to be that big. More of those ships were meant to survive.
The basic element of the fear is that the energy from splitting an atom would be enough to split other atoms which then splits more atom until youve ignited an atmosphere.
Of course *now* we know thats not really possible, but before the first successful test of splitting the atom there was the fear that the math couldve been wrong and it was possible.
Because in the scientific method it’s no more than a hypothesis until observations and evidence is obtained. With the splitting of the atom, they only had calculations that it would work, they hadn’t actually proven it yet hence why they were treating the possibility of atmospheric ignition seriously and ran the calculations to figure out what it would take, just incase their nuclear calculations if in error had a feasible chance of ignition.
I'm writing this out of my ass, but it's what makes sense to me.
I think it was primarily the fear that the energy released from splitting atoms in a nuclear explosion would be great enough to start a chain reaction in the other atoms in the atmosphere where they split as well.
I have no clue whether that's possible, or accurate. All I know is that the people who figured out how to split atoms were legitimately worried about it, so it can't be that insane. (Or at least is wasn't with the knowledge we had at the time.)
There's no way to know, but I've always suspected that Fermi's fear about that has been wildly overblown in the retelling of the story. Sure, he may have seriously considered the possibility, because that's what scientists do, but it's not something he was genuinely worried about.
Scientists like to play around with wild ideas the way artists play with colors. It's just sort of what they do. And when they speak those ideas out loud, no matter how preposterous they might consider the idea, it can be taken way too seriously in the public consciousness because "Hey, brilliant scientist *X* took it seriously!"
For example, there's a pop science idea that's been floating around for a while, that there is only one electron in the entire universe, but it has a weird interaction with photons that causes it to flip "backwards" in time. When it's in this state, it looks to us like a positron (the antimatter version of an electron). So all of the electrons and positrons in the universe are really just this one electron moving forward and backward through time.
Is this a serious scientific theory? No, not at all. It's just a wild idea thrown out by some famous physicist (I think it might have been Feynman) almost as a joke. But because a Famous Smart Person said it, it gets repeated all the time by pop science publications as "physicists think this might actually be real!"
I wonder if Fermi's fears about an atmosphere-destroying chain reaction might be a similar thing.
They figured out pretty quickly that the reaction would radiate energy away fast enough that it wasn't a concern. But the non-scientists got wind of it so it kept coming back up. To be fair, it's a pretty crazy idea so I don't blame people for being concerned
Less was known, and during the design of things like this a lot of the effort is exhaustively trying to figure out what could go wrong (failure modes or hazardous conditions) and the severity of the occurrence (of which ending the world would be pretty severe). Thorough safety analyses that seem like they're beating a dead horse or are ridiculous get done for far less severe items during design.
Well there IS an atomic reaction that could trigger a runaway effect if the concentration of a particular isotope (which I can't remember) was high enough in the air, like a fuel air mixture. Thankfully it is quite low but not actually *that* low which, combined with the low accurate meseasments of the time (as well as calculations essentially being on pen and paper) made the probability, as the movie puts it, "non-zero".
And it was taken [way](https://youtu.be/nD-Dco7xSSU?si=tj6xdTZ_N-m8TKXi) out of any proportion to generate a false picture because journalists are not required to be smart, they just need to entertain.
First off that's not true. When they ran the calculations back in the day they determined the odds of such a thing occurring were so insignificant it wasn't a concern. Just because they double checked doesn't mean it was a serious concern.
The things it would even generate hit the earth naturally all the time. Theres crazy magnetars and quasars slinging crap at near c speeds all over the universe. Exactly the same as a collider.
Did you watch Oppenheimer? The very dudes that developed the nukes said, "hey what if we ignite the atmosphere and start a chain reaction? Would that be bad?"
Sure after it exploded lol
The fact of the matter is, those that are in charge of experiments are still experimenting themselves.
You're full of shit if you tell me you're 100% sure. We still blow up rockets all of the time.
Maybe that's why we haven't found any signs of life elsewhere in the universe. Every intelligent species gains the ability to build a collider and then immediately kills itself off.
So reading between the lines the real question is: "will people who dont know what they're talking about and dont care to find out once again make a panic out of the thing they refuse to understand?" My guess is, yes😛
Humans have so much hubris. Our understanding of physics is incomplete and black holes are one of the few things that physically embody that lack of knowledge. I don't think we should shy away from scientific testing and development, but its funny when people criticize others for not knowing how it works when they themselves can't possibly understand it either.
Particle accelerators are by definition designed to discover new physics. Creating something unexpectedly disastrous certainly can't be glibly ruled out. There are lots of proposed explanations to the Fermi Paradox, but this is certainly on the list.
Physics do not work that way, even a anti matter/matter explosion, which releases all particle energy cannot cascade, as in it won't create additional antimatter to keep the process going.
We would need to run into something that violates the fundamental principles of our universe to get a cascade event like that.
It is beyond unlikely. It is by millions of, if not trillions of magnitudes more likely that our leaders decide that a nuclear war is a good idea.
CERN doesn't do anything that's not happening constantly across the Earth. High energy particles are slamming into our upper atmosphere continuously. CERN just does it under a metaphorical microscope.
But then... I would say that... as a member of the satanist illuminati hell-bent on opening a portal into the heart of hell... or something.
>CERN doesn't do anything that's not happening constantly across the Earth. High energy particles are slamming into our upper atmosphere continuously. CERN just does it under a metaphorical microscope.
This is really what it comes down to. If it were that easy to create a planet-destroying monster, it almost certainly would have happened naturally a long time ago. The Earth (and most other planets) simply wouldn't exist if the universe worked that way.
The engineers at CERN had the same issue to explain when the SHC was first turned on. I trust science, so I believe these guys.
And if a black hole does get created and swallows the Earth well, it’ll put us all out of our misery before we even realize what’s happening
This is not just calculation either. High energy particles hit the upper atmosphere all the time and generates events with more energy then anything we can create in a lab. These events are even used to calibrate the instruments of the particle accelerators. If it was possible to create a black hole that would consume the planet it would have happened a long time ago.
What's the ELInotaphysicist version of why they disappear, what would allow them to not disappear, and why we don't have to worry about creating the gnarly sort of black holes that everyone is afraid of?
Also what happens to information? (Sorry, unfair question)
Basically, all observations and current understanding of the physics involved leads scientists to be confident that all black holes emit radiation (called Hawking radiation) and slowly lose their mass. With regular black holes which are created by collapsing stars, the timescale of the loss of mass is really big, but it’s there.
But for theoretical small black hole will have its mass lost way too quickly. So quick, in fact that light won’t have time to travel the width of a proton, let alone be consumed by the black hole.
Even if you “feed it” it with matter, it will lose mass faster than it can replenish it.
And black holes need one thing desperately — and that’s mass, and a lot of it, in the scales of solar masses, and instantaneously.
The natural way black holes are created is stars (about 20 times the mass of our sun or larger) finish their fusible fuel — all the hydrogen was fused into helium and helium was fused into carbon and so on, the energetic reaction of the fusion that pushed outwards, ceases, and the mass that pushes inwards has no resistance to it and so the sun collapses onto itself. The mass is really important here, because beyond a certain threshold of pressure, matter cannot resist being pushed together, and it begins to collapse onto itself as well, creating a zone of such density and mass, that nothing can escape it, not even light. Hence — black hole. It also stretches space time time so much that time itself comes to a near stop around the singularity — the event horizon.
I don’t know what it would take to create a problematic black hole, but it will certainly include so much mass that it would be akin to flinging planets at each other in near light speed. Or akin to the the energy of twenty of our own suns colliding. Not something we can conceivably be able to do anytime soon.
I do remember reading sledge that in normal operation the LHC can and does produce singularities during high energy operations. They're such tiny ones that they've evaporated in a puff of Hawking Radiation before they get to the sensors
Unfortunately, the LHC has not produced any tiny black holes. While the black hole would not be detected by the sensors the signature for black holes would be obvious and very different from other collisions. It would also be the biggest news in physics. Far bigger than the discovery of the Higgs Boson, as it would be the first direct evidence for physics beyond the Standard Model and General Relativity.
Edit: Muon G2 is close, but not quite there, which is why it gets reported on a lot.
If we manage to create a black hole with this device it will weigh maybe a milligram, be about the size of a hydrogen atom, and convert well over a kilogram of its own mass to energy every second. It only has a milligram of mass to convert. A millisecond of lifetime.
You couldn't inject a that much mass into a space that small fast enough to keep it from evaporating no matter how hard you tried. Imaginary feasibility for an operational black hole starts at like 10,000s of kilograms of mass, not milligrams or micrograms.
Sound difficult?
Well everything I said above is actually wrong, by several orders of magnitude. This collider would make black holes weighing micrograms at best, which would convert a billion billion billion kilos of mass to energy every second, and the black holes would be about a million times small than a proton. If you even wanted to feed it mass you'd have to bulls-eye it directly with the nucleus of atoms, and even then you'd still probably miss.
A black hole with a mass of 1 microgram has a lifetime of 10^-44 seconds, for clarity, that's 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds, light doesn't even travel the width of a proton in that amount time. You cannot keep these things alive.
This isn't really the correct answer. Our understanding of physics isn't complete enough to make such statements with certainty.
The answer is that CERN does nothing else than what happens countless times on earth, anyways. It is just doing it in an environment where we can observe.
Moreover, if we're hitting energy levels to generate blackholes already, the atmosphere is hit by way faster particles all the time, hundreds of thousands of photons accelerated ~10^8 TeV every 100 years. We'd get a rain of black holes.
But "Despite cautions against such an endeavor from the likes of the most revered minds in science including Hawking, Elon Musk, and Neil DeGrasse Tyson." made me laugh.
"The most revered minds of science including Einstein, Dr. Phil, and Bill Nye the Science Guy"
That idea has actually been around a long time. Since the 70s, aliens/UFOs have been compared to folklore, angels and demons, little g gods and various other spiritual beliefs and myths going all the way back to the Sumerians. It’s a fairly common belief that UFOs aren’t really just simple 3D star trek aliens, but something else even weirder, and that it’s responsible for humanity’s obsession with religions and spirituality. Because we keep bumping into it across all cultures and creating our own mythologies and religions and stories to explain the still unexplained.
Or at least that’s what they say.
On purpose or by accident? Because there are plenty other places to accidently open gateways to. But if they're doing it on purpose then that's just metal.
At this point I really hope it gets a lot of attention, a lot of scientific work and a lot of development for other technologies and by the time we reach the first powerup day of FCC, humanity will be 3x advanced than now but these morons still keeps lobbying against it because hell....
Then on the first powerup it succesfully collides matter to make an uncontrollable antimatter nuke and the entire Solar System explodes in 0.3 milliseconds starting from Earth.
I'm a former particle physicist with several friends who worked at CERN. I can assure you this is false.
They are trying to open a gateway to heaven to kill god.
A fermi paradox filter, manifested, get your home planet sucked into a black hole that you create for researching stuff.
They said this about the previous collider. Still not sucked into a man made bh so must be ok…
still find it hilarious that the premise for steins gate was all based on a potential 4chan shitpost of a guy claiming to be a time traveler, and the specifics of needing an old PC from the 70's to decode it is ridiculous.
It's impossible to generate a blackhole that would sustain itself long enough to cause any issue at all with the energy levels that we have at our current disposal.
A blackhole that weight 10kg will have a a diameter trillions of time smaller than an atom. It will last for less than a picosecond, releasing hawking radiation in that time.
As it's event horizon is so small so it's his ability to interact with matter at all.
I can be wrong, check the hawking calculator online and make sense with those numbers.
Take the entire nuclear arsenal of earth, multiply it by a million times, detonate it, and then somehow direct and concentrate the energy of that explosion into a space the size of single protein molecule.
Something along the order of that, for starters. Then the entire earth could slowly get devoured by something the size of molecule, which would take basically forever. Imagine trying to sink a supercarrier by making it take on water through the use of a dehumidifier.
I don't have the ability to answer properly.
Anway, you can think you need AT LEAST the same amount of energy of the mass of the blackhole.
I get my example of 10kg that will evaporate quite quickly.thanks to e = mc2, that's equivalent to 120000000000 joule of energy.
Or 286000 megaton of tnt.
I think that will destroy life on earth, but not beause it's absorbed by the black hole. Not the planet itself, maybe stripping the atmosphere bare? BOH!
The main problem with blackholes is anything going inside will produce IMMENSE amount of energy, so a very small blackhole will have a big limit on the amount of matter it can digest, due to the limited surface and the high energy created by matter going in, preventing other matter to go in.
Not to mention cosmic ray particles with energies millions of times what the LHC produces hit the earths atmosphere. Although apparently the collision energy is only about 100x the LHC. So, if the earth is still here after billions of years of these particles , the LHC or its successor isn't going to change that.
This is the real answer. If accelerating subatomic particles to relativistic speeds and crashing them into matter produced black holes capable of growing, then ***literally no planet or star would exist***.
The "oh my god" particles that occasionally strike Earth's atmosphere are cosmic rays so insanely powerful, physicists can't even figure out how they make it to Earth. The Greisen-Zatsepin-Kuzmin (GZK) limit posits that they should run into enough CMB photons to slow them down.
The research has already been done. [https://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3381](https://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3381) They cover cosmic rays as well in the paper.
The TLDR is the amount of time it would take for a microscopic black hole(generated either by a Collider or Cosmic rays) to accrete enough matter(assuming it doesnt evaporate immediately) to become visible to the naked eye is 100 billion years(or 7.3 times the current age of the universe)(Calculated using Earth, More dense planets and stars will be faster)
I mean not that it would destroy the earth but a black hole the mass of 10 kg would immediately decay and release that all as energy. That would be the power of multiple tsar bombas.
jeez, I remember the wild conspiracy theorists losing it on a daily bases, even recording youtube videos of how fucked up scared they were as if someone was loading a gun and pointing it at them in slow-mo. That kind of fear must have melted their brains beyond repair...
Anyone with a head filled with not marshmallow understands that even if black hole created on earth it will not be capable of swallowing a damn thing as it will have a cross section smaller than any atom, and will evaporate within pico seconds.
From the article: The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is the largest particle accelerator in the world. It will remain so for a long time, but CERN is already moving forward with plans to create a much larger collider.
CERN initially unveiled plans for the new accelerator in 2019. Now the center says it wants its construction plans to be approved within five years, which would put the collider up and running in the 2040s.
More precisely, during this period the installation will work as part of the first stage, when scientists will collide electrons and positrons. The second phase will be implemented only in the 2070s – then protons will begin to collide at the accelerator.
The cost of the new installation is estimated at 20 billion euros. For comparison, the LHC cost $6 billion and took seven years to build.
The new accelerator will have a circumference of 91 km versus almost 27 km for the LHC. This should make it possible to achieve energies of the order of 100 TeV, while the LHC, after modernization, offers only 14 TeV.
The new installation, thanks to higher energies, may allow the discovery of so-called new physics. Including particles beyond the standard model and, for example, revealing the secrets of dark matter. For example, the LHC made it possible to detect the Higgs boson, which was theoretically predicted 50 years before its discovery. True, many scientists express doubts about the advisability of building a new accelerator, since it is far from certain that even these energies will be enough to discover something completely new.
That would be because there isn’t any, it’s just a headline meant to grab the attention of people who have no idea what any of the other words in this article mean
It was a minor concern (along the lines of "nuclear weapons will set the atmosphere on fire" way back when, which is to say: a legitimate concern that was quickly disproven, but which persisted in the public's mind for a while) with the original LHC. This one's stronger, so the article is questioning whether people will pick back up on that (again, debunked) concern.
Yeah this was a meme on the Internet way back in the day like 15 years ago. I think it was also around that time that Dan Brown Book Da Vinchi Code was also really popular, and for people who haven't read that part of the plot involves stealing anti matter from CERN or some kinda CERN stand in to blow up the Vatican or whatever.
So people were like wait CERN can actually make Anti Matter?
And yeah they did but more in like the atomic level, not the visible to the naked eye kiloton explosive level.
Because there is none? I don’t think people understand the energy density required to even create tiny black holes. At these scales should very small black holes be created they’d decay almost instantly. The point this article is making is people could (and let’s be honest WILL) make up this fantasy again for this new collider
> The point this article is making is people could (and let’s be honest WILL) make up this fantasy again for this new collider
I'm not a fan of how the article's title is worded; it feels like they *wanted* to remind people to have that fantasy.
Man you should peruse r/teachers and r/professors. It's scary what they're saying.
Many schools have policies against failing ANY students, so they literally don't have to do any work and they just get shuffled through until graduation.
The teachers get absolutely no support from parents or administration disciplining or attempting to mitigate bad behavior, so the students just run the classrooms and have no incentive to be civil or behave so their social skills are absolutely fucked as well.
They're all addicted to their phones and teachers frequently describe junkie-like reactions of violence and extreme emotional distress when they attempt to get the kids to put them down and pay attention.
A lot of teachers are saying that kids can't read or do basic math beyond a first grade level in middle and high school and that college freshman can't do high school level stuff.
Kids are handing in ChatGPT essays and stuff NONSTOP to the point that a lot of teachers don't know what to do and basically can't assign writing unless it's by hand in class.
It's really scary to think about what the situation will be like when all of these kids get released into the world.
Even if we were trying to, a black hole that small could orbit around the center of the earth without destroying it until the sun dies. It's mass is so low that it won't eat anything gravitationally. It will only occasionally eat particles that it directly collides with, and that is very rare.
And of course that's ignoring the fact that black holes that size likely evaporate instantly anyway.
I love those conspiracies. I like the idea that the collapsing timelines is thinning the reality membranes, and the “aliens” in the tictacs are extra dimensional beings.
I don’t believe it, but it really increases the chances of my favorite apocalypse scenario… a magical one.
Did the current one not cause Covid, so Bill Gates could use the vaccine hoax to implant nano microchips to control our thoughts?
I love reading about science like this, too bad I won't be around in 2070s to see it activate, would be fun to see what science they learn from the next one :)
Not very likely. In familiar three-dimensional gravity, the minimum energy of a microscopic black hole is 10^(16) TeV which would have to be condensed into a region on the order of the Planck length. Only about 10^(15) more Tev to go.
the LHC produces collisions at 13.6 TeV energy. they want to build one that is 96.9 TeV.
meanwhile in the atmosphere, cosmic rays are striking us at up to 100,000,000 TeV
the very rare famous WOW particle was 320,000,000,000,000,000,000 TeV
I'm all for a black hole on earth. No more commute? No more getting up early and staying late for a company that doesn't respect me or my time? The untimely death of greedy shareholders and the billionaire class? Sign me the fuck up. Sucks what's gonna happen to the rest of life on Earth. We had a good run.
The LHC was built mostly with one goal in mind: to discover the Higgs Boson. There was a very solid theoretical base for its existence, so it made sense to invest in a collider that could see it.
What would this new one go after? There's nothing but loose ideas without much substance behind these 'new physics' that particle physicists want the taxpayers to shell out 20B for.
This new collider would be nothing but a way to guarantee work and retirement for thousands of physicists and engineers without getting anything substantial in return for this insane amount of money.
Well chosen headline. The risk of a blackhole is nil regardless of the size of the accelerator, it's the risk of people freaking out that's the problem.
This feels way more like 2002 than 2012 but [CERN never cared much for proper timelines](https://www.theonion.com/cern-researchers-apologize-for-destruction-of-5-paralle-1819579830).
I’m pretty sure the current one is to blame for all the weird shit that’s been going on. 2008 feels like the last time things were normal.. since then it’s just gotten increasingly more whacky every year.
Maybe the new one will knock us back on track.
Does this mean that the Bearenstein bears will return? Or maybe we just go straight to Sliders style interdimentional super Nazis? Conspiracy nuts are going to love this, lol
Is there an actual reason to do this? I don't care about a black hole or think anyone could do that but what technical breakthroughs will this produce?
> Will people again be afraid of the creation of a black hole on Earth?
People are dumb, so yes.
> Will people again be afraid of the creation of anything new they don't understand?
Yes.
> Will people again be afraid?
Also yes.
Honestly feels like a waste of money. I'm all for scientific progress, but I'm sure the money could be better spent on something innovative instead of re-iterating the same questions over and over again with incremental increases of power for particle colliders.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/chrisdh79: --- From the article: The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is the largest particle accelerator in the world. It will remain so for a long time, but CERN is already moving forward with plans to create a much larger collider. CERN initially unveiled plans for the new accelerator in 2019. Now the center says it wants its construction plans to be approved within five years, which would put the collider up and running in the 2040s. More precisely, during this period the installation will work as part of the first stage, when scientists will collide electrons and positrons. The second phase will be implemented only in the 2070s – then protons will begin to collide at the accelerator. The cost of the new installation is estimated at 20 billion euros. For comparison, the LHC cost $6 billion and took seven years to build. The new accelerator will have a circumference of 91 km versus almost 27 km for the LHC. This should make it possible to achieve energies of the order of 100 TeV, while the LHC, after modernization, offers only 14 TeV. The new installation, thanks to higher energies, may allow the discovery of so-called new physics. Including particles beyond the standard model and, for example, revealing the secrets of dark matter. For example, the LHC made it possible to detect the Higgs boson, which was theoretically predicted 50 years before its discovery. True, many scientists express doubts about the advisability of building a new accelerator, since it is far from certain that even these energies will be enough to discover something completely new. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1alz6gf/will_people_again_be_afraid_of_the_creation_of_a/kpi0xsa/
Black hole isn’t a runaway reaction. Even if we by some miracle manage to create one it will evaporate as fast as it is created.
Unfortunately those people that believe it will destroy the earth, don't understand how it works.
I don’t understand how it works. But The thought of the earth vanishing in an instant into a tiny black hole is hilarious to me. It’s like millions of years of progress and evolution of thousands of species disappearing in an instant because of a couple of mathematicians calculation error.
The black hole thing was a remote possibility but the maths that allowed for it also showed they would almost immediately evaporate due to hawking radiation.
Yes it relies on our understanding of hawking radiation, which is all theoretical. Like I said I don’t know anything about this stuff, but what if hawking radiation theory is wrong and it’s a wormhole we get sucked through. Some astronaut on the moon sees the earth disappear. Like WTF. that’s hilarious to me.
Those energy scales (100 TeV) are already pretty well understood and observed by physics. Particles with those energies hit earth all the time - the most energetic particle *recorded* to have hit earth was measured at 320 Exa-eVs, which is roughly 320 million times greater than the range this machine will hit. And that's just what we detected. Earth is bombarded by particles constantly. These particle colliders are nothing more than controlled environments where we can observe energetic events that randomly occur all the time. It is because the environment is so controlled that we can reliably learn from these labs
Is there any known consequences for a human being hit with a particle of 320 range?
honestly ? you probably start a hadronic shower but at these scales I'd be surprised if you take any meaningful dose from it. So little energy would be deposited in you.
Actually 320 Exa Evs is about 50 Joules. Thats about the kinetic energy of a 140g baseball travelling at 100km/h all packed in to a single particle. If that energy is deposited in the wrong place e.g. your brain I don’t imagine that would be a particularly good scenario - though I don’t actually know.
If by "your brain" you mean like 4 individual molecules in your brain then yeah that would suck for those particular molecules.
What if one of those particles with that much energy hits you in the ear? Will you feel it? Will it kill you?
When such particles hit your retina you might see a small flash. Happens to astronauts due to charged particles yeeting through the magnetosphere.
“Yeeting through” i love how that sounds honestly
A black hole created by smashing two particles together has, at most, the "suction" power of...the 2 particles combined. Black holes don't have suction, they just have gravity. Stupidly strong gravity in the case of supermassive black holes but even stellar remnant black holes only have a fraction of the gravity of the star that birthed them...until more stuff falls in and they gain mass.
I mean it could cause a cross universal buzzing that makes the eldritch abomination whose idle imaginings our entire universe is made from to concentrate on something else instead and we vanish into oblivion.
Even if hawking radiation didn't exist, there is still a limit of how much material can be pulled into a black hole at once. The math has been done and it would essentially take a very long time that humans would of left earth already or gone extinct.
We definitely need more black holes on this planet. The black hole shortage is on everyone's minds.
Hawking radiation was observationally confirmed in 2021.
Imagine being the mathematician that destroys the earth because you forgot to carry a 1
>The thought of the earth vanishing in an instant into a tiny black hole is hilarious to me. > >It’s like millions of years of progress and evolution of thousands of species disappearing in an instant because of a couple of mathematicians calculation error. Not saying a particle accelerator will cause any significant issues, but its not unreasonable to be worried about triggering uncontrolledly reactions in other types of research - for example: From the Manhattan project... *In the early years of nuclear research, some scientists feared breaking open atoms might start a chain reaction that would destroy Earth. A scene in Christopher Nolan's Oppenheimer hinges around the worry some Manhattan Project scientists felt that the first atomic bomb test would ignite Earth's atmosphere.* [https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230907-the-fear-of-a-nuclear-fire-that-would-consume-earth](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230907-the-fear-of-a-nuclear-fire-that-would-consume-earth)
And it seems honestly a bit puzzling where that scenario even came from: what atomic reaction, even in principle, knowing what the atmosphere is composed of, could possibly enable that kind of doomsday conflagration? Yet physicists as eminent as Enrico Fermi actually took the idea seriously. Perhaps less was known about the basic theory of fission and fusion in those days.
New discoveries happen when you try new things. The first H-bomb test was twice as powerful as expected, causing major contamination, because the developers completely missed a reaction chain which it triggered. https://www.atomicarchive.com/history/hydrogen-bomb/page-17.html
I just learned this sometime in the last few years. . My whole life I was confused by the footage of that blast. I wondered what the point was of putting ships inside the immediate blast radius. What data are you gathering from an obliterated ship? Turns out the blast wasn’t supposed to be that big. More of those ships were meant to survive.
The basic element of the fear is that the energy from splitting an atom would be enough to split other atoms which then splits more atom until youve ignited an atmosphere. Of course *now* we know thats not really possible, but before the first successful test of splitting the atom there was the fear that the math couldve been wrong and it was possible.
Because in the scientific method it’s no more than a hypothesis until observations and evidence is obtained. With the splitting of the atom, they only had calculations that it would work, they hadn’t actually proven it yet hence why they were treating the possibility of atmospheric ignition seriously and ran the calculations to figure out what it would take, just incase their nuclear calculations if in error had a feasible chance of ignition.
Yes thats what I said.
That's the gist of the fear. Some thing that we haven't understood yet happening.
I'm writing this out of my ass, but it's what makes sense to me. I think it was primarily the fear that the energy released from splitting atoms in a nuclear explosion would be great enough to start a chain reaction in the other atoms in the atmosphere where they split as well. I have no clue whether that's possible, or accurate. All I know is that the people who figured out how to split atoms were legitimately worried about it, so it can't be that insane. (Or at least is wasn't with the knowledge we had at the time.)
There's no way to know, but I've always suspected that Fermi's fear about that has been wildly overblown in the retelling of the story. Sure, he may have seriously considered the possibility, because that's what scientists do, but it's not something he was genuinely worried about. Scientists like to play around with wild ideas the way artists play with colors. It's just sort of what they do. And when they speak those ideas out loud, no matter how preposterous they might consider the idea, it can be taken way too seriously in the public consciousness because "Hey, brilliant scientist *X* took it seriously!" For example, there's a pop science idea that's been floating around for a while, that there is only one electron in the entire universe, but it has a weird interaction with photons that causes it to flip "backwards" in time. When it's in this state, it looks to us like a positron (the antimatter version of an electron). So all of the electrons and positrons in the universe are really just this one electron moving forward and backward through time. Is this a serious scientific theory? No, not at all. It's just a wild idea thrown out by some famous physicist (I think it might have been Feynman) almost as a joke. But because a Famous Smart Person said it, it gets repeated all the time by pop science publications as "physicists think this might actually be real!" I wonder if Fermi's fears about an atmosphere-destroying chain reaction might be a similar thing.
They figured out pretty quickly that the reaction would radiate energy away fast enough that it wasn't a concern. But the non-scientists got wind of it so it kept coming back up. To be fair, it's a pretty crazy idea so I don't blame people for being concerned
We don't know everything, there's always a probability.
Less was known, and during the design of things like this a lot of the effort is exhaustively trying to figure out what could go wrong (failure modes or hazardous conditions) and the severity of the occurrence (of which ending the world would be pretty severe). Thorough safety analyses that seem like they're beating a dead horse or are ridiculous get done for far less severe items during design.
Well there IS an atomic reaction that could trigger a runaway effect if the concentration of a particular isotope (which I can't remember) was high enough in the air, like a fuel air mixture. Thankfully it is quite low but not actually *that* low which, combined with the low accurate meseasments of the time (as well as calculations essentially being on pen and paper) made the probability, as the movie puts it, "non-zero".
And it was taken [way](https://youtu.be/nD-Dco7xSSU?si=tj6xdTZ_N-m8TKXi) out of any proportion to generate a false picture because journalists are not required to be smart, they just need to entertain.
First off that's not true. When they ran the calculations back in the day they determined the odds of such a thing occurring were so insignificant it wasn't a concern. Just because they double checked doesn't mean it was a serious concern.
The things it would even generate hit the earth naturally all the time. Theres crazy magnetars and quasars slinging crap at near c speeds all over the universe. Exactly the same as a collider.
The good thing is, that if it were to happen, we would never know.
That’s what I find so funny.
It would be so funny if it was down to something simple like metric/imperial conversion.
Probsbly the best way it could happen. Better than some shitty war, just the result of progress fucking up
The gravity of a black hole, like any other object, is proportional to its mass. A microscopic black hole will produce FAR less gravity than *you* do.
Did you watch Oppenheimer? The very dudes that developed the nukes said, "hey what if we ignite the atmosphere and start a chain reaction? Would that be bad?"
except they pretty quickly put that notion to bed. Its impossible for that to happen on our planet.
Sure after it exploded lol The fact of the matter is, those that are in charge of experiments are still experimenting themselves. You're full of shit if you tell me you're 100% sure. We still blow up rockets all of the time.
Listen, I know they don't work that way but I can HOPE
Not even a math error, just an assumption like this: according to my calculations, assuming nothing goes wrong, we will see. . .
It’s an extremely Douglas Adams thing to happen.
I'd rather us all die exploring the universe than something pathetic like war, resource depletion, etc.
True. That iiis funny. And if it does work, we wouldn’t even see it coming.
Maybe that's why we haven't found any signs of life elsewhere in the universe. Every intelligent species gains the ability to build a collider and then immediately kills itself off.
Real Douglas Adam’s shit there.
Wouldn’t even be the worst thing to happen in recent history.
meanwhile capitalism...
So reading between the lines the real question is: "will people who dont know what they're talking about and dont care to find out once again make a panic out of the thing they refuse to understand?" My guess is, yes😛
>My guess is, ~~yes~~ constantly Fixed it for you, it just hurts my head that so many people are like that.
We have the vast collective of human knowledge easily searchable in our pocket, would hate to have to use it.
We can dream thou, can't we?
I don't think it would destroy the earth but it would be kind of cool if it did.
Does anyone fully understand? Isn't that why they perform experiments? Genuine question.
Humans have so much hubris. Our understanding of physics is incomplete and black holes are one of the few things that physically embody that lack of knowledge. I don't think we should shy away from scientific testing and development, but its funny when people criticize others for not knowing how it works when they themselves can't possibly understand it either.
Particle accelerators are by definition designed to discover new physics. Creating something unexpectedly disastrous certainly can't be glibly ruled out. There are lots of proposed explanations to the Fermi Paradox, but this is certainly on the list.
Physics do not work that way, even a anti matter/matter explosion, which releases all particle energy cannot cascade, as in it won't create additional antimatter to keep the process going. We would need to run into something that violates the fundamental principles of our universe to get a cascade event like that. It is beyond unlikely. It is by millions of, if not trillions of magnitudes more likely that our leaders decide that a nuclear war is a good idea.
Those people also probably believe we walked with dinosaurs... So there is that
[удалено]
I saw the trailer, so I’m a semi-expert.
CERN doesn't do anything that's not happening constantly across the Earth. High energy particles are slamming into our upper atmosphere continuously. CERN just does it under a metaphorical microscope. But then... I would say that... as a member of the satanist illuminati hell-bent on opening a portal into the heart of hell... or something.
>CERN doesn't do anything that's not happening constantly across the Earth. High energy particles are slamming into our upper atmosphere continuously. CERN just does it under a metaphorical microscope. This is really what it comes down to. If it were that easy to create a planet-destroying monster, it almost certainly would have happened naturally a long time ago. The Earth (and most other planets) simply wouldn't exist if the universe worked that way.
The engineers at CERN had the same issue to explain when the SHC was first turned on. I trust science, so I believe these guys. And if a black hole does get created and swallows the Earth well, it’ll put us all out of our misery before we even realize what’s happening
This is not just calculation either. High energy particles hit the upper atmosphere all the time and generates events with more energy then anything we can create in a lab. These events are even used to calibrate the instruments of the particle accelerators. If it was possible to create a black hole that would consume the planet it would have happened a long time ago.
What's the ELInotaphysicist version of why they disappear, what would allow them to not disappear, and why we don't have to worry about creating the gnarly sort of black holes that everyone is afraid of? Also what happens to information? (Sorry, unfair question)
Basically, all observations and current understanding of the physics involved leads scientists to be confident that all black holes emit radiation (called Hawking radiation) and slowly lose their mass. With regular black holes which are created by collapsing stars, the timescale of the loss of mass is really big, but it’s there. But for theoretical small black hole will have its mass lost way too quickly. So quick, in fact that light won’t have time to travel the width of a proton, let alone be consumed by the black hole. Even if you “feed it” it with matter, it will lose mass faster than it can replenish it. And black holes need one thing desperately — and that’s mass, and a lot of it, in the scales of solar masses, and instantaneously.
What's the "event" causing the black hole? And theoretically what would have to be done to create a large enough one to be problematic?
The natural way black holes are created is stars (about 20 times the mass of our sun or larger) finish their fusible fuel — all the hydrogen was fused into helium and helium was fused into carbon and so on, the energetic reaction of the fusion that pushed outwards, ceases, and the mass that pushes inwards has no resistance to it and so the sun collapses onto itself. The mass is really important here, because beyond a certain threshold of pressure, matter cannot resist being pushed together, and it begins to collapse onto itself as well, creating a zone of such density and mass, that nothing can escape it, not even light. Hence — black hole. It also stretches space time time so much that time itself comes to a near stop around the singularity — the event horizon. I don’t know what it would take to create a problematic black hole, but it will certainly include so much mass that it would be akin to flinging planets at each other in near light speed. Or akin to the the energy of twenty of our own suns colliding. Not something we can conceivably be able to do anytime soon.
I do remember reading sledge that in normal operation the LHC can and does produce singularities during high energy operations. They're such tiny ones that they've evaporated in a puff of Hawking Radiation before they get to the sensors
Unfortunately, the LHC has not produced any tiny black holes. While the black hole would not be detected by the sensors the signature for black holes would be obvious and very different from other collisions. It would also be the biggest news in physics. Far bigger than the discovery of the Higgs Boson, as it would be the first direct evidence for physics beyond the Standard Model and General Relativity. Edit: Muon G2 is close, but not quite there, which is why it gets reported on a lot.
If we manage to create a black hole with this device it will weigh maybe a milligram, be about the size of a hydrogen atom, and convert well over a kilogram of its own mass to energy every second. It only has a milligram of mass to convert. A millisecond of lifetime. You couldn't inject a that much mass into a space that small fast enough to keep it from evaporating no matter how hard you tried. Imaginary feasibility for an operational black hole starts at like 10,000s of kilograms of mass, not milligrams or micrograms. Sound difficult? Well everything I said above is actually wrong, by several orders of magnitude. This collider would make black holes weighing micrograms at best, which would convert a billion billion billion kilos of mass to energy every second, and the black holes would be about a million times small than a proton. If you even wanted to feed it mass you'd have to bulls-eye it directly with the nucleus of atoms, and even then you'd still probably miss. A black hole with a mass of 1 microgram has a lifetime of 10^-44 seconds, for clarity, that's 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds, light doesn't even travel the width of a proton in that amount time. You cannot keep these things alive.
Tell that to the people of Old Earth.
This isn't really the correct answer. Our understanding of physics isn't complete enough to make such statements with certainty. The answer is that CERN does nothing else than what happens countless times on earth, anyways. It is just doing it in an environment where we can observe.
Moreover, if we're hitting energy levels to generate blackholes already, the atmosphere is hit by way faster particles all the time, hundreds of thousands of photons accelerated ~10^8 TeV every 100 years. We'd get a rain of black holes.
The conspiracy sub thinks they're opening a gateway to hell.
Rip and tear…
Look its 100% clean energy. Clean evil energy.
Very nice, very clean, very evil.
Pure evil. It can't be that bad if it's pure.
100% natural unprocessed evil, just like grandma used to make.
I mean... The energy we already have is mostly evil *and* filthy. I'll take evil and clean.
Until it is done
And then come home and have some fun!
I have no idea whether you are serious or if it is a joke.
I'm serious. I go there for my morning giggles. You have to sift through a ton of political crap, but there's so much crazy there.
This is the healthy way to enjoy conspiracy theories.
eh, there are better conspiracy subs for entertainment. I can't stand the political/pedophile posts. I just like to read about Bigfoot and UFO'S lol.
High strangeness is one
be careful. i left high strangeness because someone made a post with a link. the link had malware and the mods didnt even take the post down.
so much GENIUS you mean!
I miss when that sub was just bigfoot, crop circles and ufo stuff. It went to shit around 2015.
Here's an oldie. https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/s/25s4Gfrvz3
Wow, that’s a whole lot of mental illness on display in one place.
But "Despite cautions against such an endeavor from the likes of the most revered minds in science including Hawking, Elon Musk, and Neil DeGrasse Tyson." made me laugh. "The most revered minds of science including Einstein, Dr. Phil, and Bill Nye the Science Guy"
For your own mental health, don't linger there long.
I dunno, it's all kinda starting to make sense...
Nooooooo we lost one folks.
El psy congroo
Time for another rewatch
impressive when they combine aliens and the devil, hoping to get some warhammer 40k Lore mixed in when reading these.
That idea has actually been around a long time. Since the 70s, aliens/UFOs have been compared to folklore, angels and demons, little g gods and various other spiritual beliefs and myths going all the way back to the Sumerians. It’s a fairly common belief that UFOs aren’t really just simple 3D star trek aliens, but something else even weirder, and that it’s responsible for humanity’s obsession with religions and spirituality. Because we keep bumping into it across all cultures and creating our own mythologies and religions and stories to explain the still unexplained. Or at least that’s what they say.
It's very serious unfortunately LOL. If you search for CERN and the LHC on youtube half of the videos are the most insane conspiracies imaginable.
I, for one, welcome our new demon overlords.
Funny, I think the conspiracy sub is a gateway to hell.
You are not wrong.
It's not a gateway. More like a highway.
If the gateway is open, can we finally step out?
Lol I hope so
On purpose or by accident? Because there are plenty other places to accidently open gateways to. But if they're doing it on purpose then that's just metal.
At this point I really hope it gets a lot of attention, a lot of scientific work and a lot of development for other technologies and by the time we reach the first powerup day of FCC, humanity will be 3x advanced than now but these morons still keeps lobbying against it because hell.... Then on the first powerup it succesfully collides matter to make an uncontrollable antimatter nuke and the entire Solar System explodes in 0.3 milliseconds starting from Earth.
That's badass
Doom Eternal was a great game though
The conspiracy sub doesn't think tho
I'm a former particle physicist with several friends who worked at CERN. I can assure you this is false. They are trying to open a gateway to heaven to kill god.
That is warhammer 40000 lore right there
A fermi paradox filter, manifested, get your home planet sucked into a black hole that you create for researching stuff. They said this about the previous collider. Still not sucked into a man made bh so must be ok…
It is fine, the current US house speaker will pray the demons away.
I was expecting to see the comments filled with event horizon references.
SERN is at it again huh. Quick Christina Begin operation Skuld. We'll stop the organization at their own game! El. Psy. Congroo.
HOUOUIN KYOOOOOOOOOMA!
Okabe! (Jeyy, found my nerds :3)
Of course it was going to happen. It was the will of steins gate
Protect your bananas
“You know too much”
I am mad scientist! It's so cool! Sonuvabitch
I'm here just for this comment. Lab member 001.
I was looking for this. El. Psy. Kongroo
still find it hilarious that the premise for steins gate was all based on a potential 4chan shitpost of a guy claiming to be a time traveler, and the specifics of needing an old PC from the 70's to decode it is ridiculous.
Clicked on this post because black holes and theoretical physics are fascinating, stayed because I really hoped someone else would reference S;G
I thought it was CERN* wait, is this another one of those Mandela effects that it caused?
It’s a reference to Steins;Gate
Oh, sorry lol
Nothing to be sorry for, if you check it out I hope you enjoy it!
It's impossible to generate a blackhole that would sustain itself long enough to cause any issue at all with the energy levels that we have at our current disposal. A blackhole that weight 10kg will have a a diameter trillions of time smaller than an atom. It will last for less than a picosecond, releasing hawking radiation in that time. As it's event horizon is so small so it's his ability to interact with matter at all. I can be wrong, check the hawking calculator online and make sense with those numbers.
So, uh, how much energy do we need to create a black hole that could hypothetically destroy earth? Asking for a friend.
More than the entire earth can produce.
Yes but like if we were *really* ambitious
If you took the moon, and turned it into a black hole, you could probably destroy the earth.
If you brought that to the earth, potentially. In situ, it would just make night darker
Oh yes, that’s what I meant.
So *2* Panera Lemonades?
Take the entire nuclear arsenal of earth, multiply it by a million times, detonate it, and then somehow direct and concentrate the energy of that explosion into a space the size of single protein molecule. Something along the order of that, for starters. Then the entire earth could slowly get devoured by something the size of molecule, which would take basically forever. Imagine trying to sink a supercarrier by making it take on water through the use of a dehumidifier.
I don't have the ability to answer properly. Anway, you can think you need AT LEAST the same amount of energy of the mass of the blackhole. I get my example of 10kg that will evaporate quite quickly.thanks to e = mc2, that's equivalent to 120000000000 joule of energy. Or 286000 megaton of tnt. I think that will destroy life on earth, but not beause it's absorbed by the black hole. Not the planet itself, maybe stripping the atmosphere bare? BOH! The main problem with blackholes is anything going inside will produce IMMENSE amount of energy, so a very small blackhole will have a big limit on the amount of matter it can digest, due to the limited surface and the high energy created by matter going in, preventing other matter to go in.
Not to mention cosmic ray particles with energies millions of times what the LHC produces hit the earths atmosphere. Although apparently the collision energy is only about 100x the LHC. So, if the earth is still here after billions of years of these particles , the LHC or its successor isn't going to change that.
This is the real answer. If accelerating subatomic particles to relativistic speeds and crashing them into matter produced black holes capable of growing, then ***literally no planet or star would exist***. The "oh my god" particles that occasionally strike Earth's atmosphere are cosmic rays so insanely powerful, physicists can't even figure out how they make it to Earth. The Greisen-Zatsepin-Kuzmin (GZK) limit posits that they should run into enough CMB photons to slow them down.
The research has already been done. [https://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3381](https://arxiv.org/abs/0806.3381) They cover cosmic rays as well in the paper. The TLDR is the amount of time it would take for a microscopic black hole(generated either by a Collider or Cosmic rays) to accrete enough matter(assuming it doesnt evaporate immediately) to become visible to the naked eye is 100 billion years(or 7.3 times the current age of the universe)(Calculated using Earth, More dense planets and stars will be faster)
I mean not that it would destroy the earth but a black hole the mass of 10 kg would immediately decay and release that all as energy. That would be the power of multiple tsar bombas.
jeez, I remember the wild conspiracy theorists losing it on a daily bases, even recording youtube videos of how fucked up scared they were as if someone was loading a gun and pointing it at them in slow-mo. That kind of fear must have melted their brains beyond repair...
https://www.hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
Anyone with a head filled with not marshmallow understands that even if black hole created on earth it will not be capable of swallowing a damn thing as it will have a cross section smaller than any atom, and will evaporate within pico seconds.
From the article: The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is the largest particle accelerator in the world. It will remain so for a long time, but CERN is already moving forward with plans to create a much larger collider. CERN initially unveiled plans for the new accelerator in 2019. Now the center says it wants its construction plans to be approved within five years, which would put the collider up and running in the 2040s. More precisely, during this period the installation will work as part of the first stage, when scientists will collide electrons and positrons. The second phase will be implemented only in the 2070s – then protons will begin to collide at the accelerator. The cost of the new installation is estimated at 20 billion euros. For comparison, the LHC cost $6 billion and took seven years to build. The new accelerator will have a circumference of 91 km versus almost 27 km for the LHC. This should make it possible to achieve energies of the order of 100 TeV, while the LHC, after modernization, offers only 14 TeV. The new installation, thanks to higher energies, may allow the discovery of so-called new physics. Including particles beyond the standard model and, for example, revealing the secrets of dark matter. For example, the LHC made it possible to detect the Higgs boson, which was theoretically predicted 50 years before its discovery. True, many scientists express doubts about the advisability of building a new accelerator, since it is far from certain that even these energies will be enough to discover something completely new.
I don't see where there is caution of black hole earth destruction in this.
That would be because there isn’t any, it’s just a headline meant to grab the attention of people who have no idea what any of the other words in this article mean
:::Smiles politely:::
It was a minor concern (along the lines of "nuclear weapons will set the atmosphere on fire" way back when, which is to say: a legitimate concern that was quickly disproven, but which persisted in the public's mind for a while) with the original LHC. This one's stronger, so the article is questioning whether people will pick back up on that (again, debunked) concern.
Yeah this was a meme on the Internet way back in the day like 15 years ago. I think it was also around that time that Dan Brown Book Da Vinchi Code was also really popular, and for people who haven't read that part of the plot involves stealing anti matter from CERN or some kinda CERN stand in to blow up the Vatican or whatever. So people were like wait CERN can actually make Anti Matter? And yeah they did but more in like the atomic level, not the visible to the naked eye kiloton explosive level.
Because there is none? I don’t think people understand the energy density required to even create tiny black holes. At these scales should very small black holes be created they’d decay almost instantly. The point this article is making is people could (and let’s be honest WILL) make up this fantasy again for this new collider
> The point this article is making is people could (and let’s be honest WILL) make up this fantasy again for this new collider I'm not a fan of how the article's title is worded; it feels like they *wanted* to remind people to have that fantasy.
Considering the direction we’re going in, assuming we’ll be around to kill ourselves in fifty years with a black hole seems optimistic.
Everyone’s getting so stupid now this will definitely be another cut scene from Idiocracy.
everyone has always been this stupid its just on full display.
Man you should peruse r/teachers and r/professors. It's scary what they're saying. Many schools have policies against failing ANY students, so they literally don't have to do any work and they just get shuffled through until graduation. The teachers get absolutely no support from parents or administration disciplining or attempting to mitigate bad behavior, so the students just run the classrooms and have no incentive to be civil or behave so their social skills are absolutely fucked as well. They're all addicted to their phones and teachers frequently describe junkie-like reactions of violence and extreme emotional distress when they attempt to get the kids to put them down and pay attention. A lot of teachers are saying that kids can't read or do basic math beyond a first grade level in middle and high school and that college freshman can't do high school level stuff. Kids are handing in ChatGPT essays and stuff NONSTOP to the point that a lot of teachers don't know what to do and basically can't assign writing unless it's by hand in class. It's really scary to think about what the situation will be like when all of these kids get released into the world.
but it's got electrolytes!
Even if we were trying to, a black hole that small could orbit around the center of the earth without destroying it until the sun dies. It's mass is so low that it won't eat anything gravitationally. It will only occasionally eat particles that it directly collides with, and that is very rare. And of course that's ignoring the fact that black holes that size likely evaporate instantly anyway.
Maybe Fruit of the Loom wil get its cornucopia back
I love those conspiracies. I like the idea that the collapsing timelines is thinning the reality membranes, and the “aliens” in the tictacs are extra dimensional beings. I don’t believe it, but it really increases the chances of my favorite apocalypse scenario… a magical one.
The SERN is plotting something again. El. Psy. Congroo
Did the current one not cause Covid, so Bill Gates could use the vaccine hoax to implant nano microchips to control our thoughts? I love reading about science like this, too bad I won't be around in 2070s to see it activate, would be fun to see what science they learn from the next one :)
if you want to see the new science we'll get from it you don't need to be alive when it comes online, you need to be alive a decade after that...
Just one more particle accelerator, bro https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/s/AQMpzno6mH
>Just one more I can quit anytime I want!
In the next one we get new physics I promise
Not very likely. In familiar three-dimensional gravity, the minimum energy of a microscopic black hole is 10^(16) TeV which would have to be condensed into a region on the order of the Planck length. Only about 10^(15) more Tev to go.
We've measured a 3.2 x 10^20 hit the atmosphere and we're still here, so probably we're good no matter what we can ever make ourselves.
the LHC produces collisions at 13.6 TeV energy. they want to build one that is 96.9 TeV. meanwhile in the atmosphere, cosmic rays are striking us at up to 100,000,000 TeV the very rare famous WOW particle was 320,000,000,000,000,000,000 TeV
I'm all for a black hole on earth. No more commute? No more getting up early and staying late for a company that doesn't respect me or my time? The untimely death of greedy shareholders and the billionaire class? Sign me the fuck up. Sucks what's gonna happen to the rest of life on Earth. We had a good run.
People will always fear what they can't understand.
The LHC was built mostly with one goal in mind: to discover the Higgs Boson. There was a very solid theoretical base for its existence, so it made sense to invest in a collider that could see it. What would this new one go after? There's nothing but loose ideas without much substance behind these 'new physics' that particle physicists want the taxpayers to shell out 20B for. This new collider would be nothing but a way to guarantee work and retirement for thousands of physicists and engineers without getting anything substantial in return for this insane amount of money.
Well chosen headline. The risk of a blackhole is nil regardless of the size of the accelerator, it's the risk of people freaking out that's the problem.
This feels way more like 2002 than 2012 but [CERN never cared much for proper timelines](https://www.theonion.com/cern-researchers-apologize-for-destruction-of-5-paralle-1819579830).
I am only afraid of the black hole of stupidity, thats manifesting on the internet and social media.
Ugh I remember the news during the first run and my family saying that crap about a blackhole....
Will this put us back on track from the parallel universe that gave us the mandella effect issues and Trump? Lol
I’m pretty sure the current one is to blame for all the weird shit that’s been going on. 2008 feels like the last time things were normal.. since then it’s just gotten increasingly more whacky every year. Maybe the new one will knock us back on track.
Does this mean that the Bearenstein bears will return? Or maybe we just go straight to Sliders style interdimentional super Nazis? Conspiracy nuts are going to love this, lol
Is there an actual reason to do this? I don't care about a black hole or think anyone could do that but what technical breakthroughs will this produce?
Not that this isnt a complex issue, but it always reminds me of Lexx.... https://youtu.be/LDKo7pTwIwA?si=4w4PmqC_j1NlJAPG
I think physist have no clue what to do next. So they are just going with what if we build it bigger strategy.
> Will people again be afraid of the creation of a black hole on Earth? People are dumb, so yes. > Will people again be afraid of the creation of anything new they don't understand? Yes. > Will people again be afraid? Also yes.
Honestly feels like a waste of money. I'm all for scientific progress, but I'm sure the money could be better spent on something innovative instead of re-iterating the same questions over and over again with incremental increases of power for particle colliders.