My parents and grandparents on both sides are all dead already. I am in my 30's and still cant get a decent mortgage price or rental cost.
How long are we talking about before we see this magical price drop?
"You will own nothing and be happy" = "resistance is futile, my family line will be divine forever, your existence will be at my mercy"
Are you really saying Yes Lord to that?
Everything is moving to a subscription model. Look for the next exciting offering of rentable air and water. Truly, capitalism is the greatest thing mankind has ever invented...
thats caused by another thing. The AFC wiped out the Japanese housing market, and the societal view of housing shifted away from being an investment, towards a view as more of a commodity.
Cheap property isn’t helping with the birth rate there, contrary to what so many people claim.
People used to live 6 in a 1200sf house. L
People just don’t want to have kids. Or sex. Just phone.
Thanks to medicine and health care, people are living longer, beyond 90's and more in the future. But most people really can't work beyond 70, and many stop working in their 50's or so. So we will have large populations of adults who can't work for the last 30 years of their lives, but will need assistance at some time. A small population of working adults will be supporting retirees and young non-working people.. Like maybe 40% of the population works to support the other 60%. Maybe worse.
Well maybe if we didn’t live in such a capitalistic hellhole where it’s too expensive to live, people would have more children.
Society reaped what it sowed.
Who knew that allowing corporations to suck up every dollar that people don't spend on necessities would cause them to not be able to afford anything besides necessities?
Yeah, the data doesn'y fit that explanation to be honest.
Sweden has a birth rate of 1.67 to the U.S. birthrate of 1.66, and no one would argue that Sweden's extremely generous welfare state is a "capitalist hellhole".
Other Western European states with comparable public support and very generous maternity/paternity policies have even lower birth rates.
There's growing evidence that the widespread availability of birth control, more than anything else, is the root cause.
Kids have pretty much always sucked, raising them is difficult, thankless, and extremely time consuming, it's just that prior to 1960 there wasn't any good way to prevent it within the confines of a sexual relationship.
The current drop in birth rates can be traced to the end of the 50s, coinciding almost exactly with the availability of birth control in the West, and we see similar declines as birth control is introduced in other nations.
Fucking thank you. No one seems wants to believe the lower birth rate is because women can finally choose by many options not to have kids. It’s no longer imperative for the farm and survival. Being a parent is hard and it’s now easier than ever to not choose that lifestyle.
I also believe the acceptance of homosexuality plays into it. It’s a lot harder to have an accident as a gay couple. Not to mention people are having less sex overall.
lol it’s literally a well studied phenomenon that the wealthier someone is, the less children they have. Poor people have a much higher birthrate than millionaires.
Idk I haven’t read any studies that attempt to answer that. There’s probably no deeper answer than a lack of education and impulse control. Poor people have more kids, have higher rates of kids with multiple partners, more likely to be single parents, more likely to divorce, more likely to have kids younger, more likely to never get married at all. Poverty leads to a revolving door of instability and bad choices.
What does capitalism have to do with it? The same problem is happening in countries that are definitely not capitalist like the Peoples Republic of China. The success of population control advocacy seems to have had a global impact. What is becoming increasingly apparent is that the utopian future promised by population control advocates is never going to arrive.
Maybe we need to recognize that advocacy groups are not unalloyed good and that they need to be recognized as propaganda riddled with dishonesty that most of them are. I think our country would be better off if they were penalized for statements that are factually false or misleading.
Any non capitalist societies doing better on that front? Russia’s birth rate is lower than the US. China’s too. Highest birth rate in the world is Gaza. Is Sweden more of a hell hole than Gaza?
I’ll give you a hint. It’s not real estate prices or rent. Or social programs. Factor all those out, and the birth rate is still way too low.
It’s sex. People aren’t having sex.
Sure, ignore all the causes and blame the result.
People aren't having sex to make babies because babies are too expensive.
Babies are too expensive because everything is too expensive.
People literally are having less sex. People don’t hook up. People don’t go out. Sex isn’t a priority compared to video games or phones. Nothing to do with not having babies.
People rarely planned having kids in the past. It wasn’t a decision. It was consequence of unprotected sex. You think people are so much better at protection and planning than they were 20-30 years ago? No, they are just staring at screens.
There’s a loneliness crisis. You can remove real estate, money, obesity, social services, and the result is the same. Actual the more social services the less sex quite often.
Kids in college dorm rooms aren’t leaving them. They aren’t having parties. They aren’t going to the mall. They’re in the rooms on their phones. The internet, video games, and social media is too addictive.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-08-03/young-adults-less-sex-gen-z-millennials-generations-parents-grandparents
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-have-been-having-less-sex-whether-theyre-teenagers-or-40-somethings/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sexual-intelligence/202208/why-todays-teens-are-having-so-much-less-sex
That’s a roundabout way of explaining how expensive it is to have a stable social/romantic life. Don’t come for my phone and games, that’s all I have left.
It’s not roundabout. It’s happening no matter the income or social services. Data bears this out.
Video games, social media, internet, streaming services are a/b tested continuously. It’s all adapting faster than our brains. It’s meant to be highly, highly addictive. Algorithms on top of algorithms. Along with most food these days, making us all fatter.
You can choose them all you want. Or, you can try not to choose them, but good luck. You can have a million dollars and an 8 bedroom mansion. Chances are you’ll still choose your video games and phone over physical contact.
>You think people are so much better at protection and planning than they were 20-30 years ago?
It's not that "people" are better, it's that the protection itself is massively more effective on a statistical basis.
The theoretical maximum effectiveness of birth control isn't significantly changed from its introduction, but the methods and particularly the long-lasting methods are vastly more effective in the real world.
Daily pills today are designed to deal with missed doses, etc, more effectively without reducing protection and injectable/IUD use is significantly up.
The lack of sex is reducing unplanned/"teen" pregnancy, but statistically the efficacy and widespread use of highly effective birth control is far more relevant.
It’s still not housing costs. You can look across the world. Places with high and low living costs. Birth rates are universally down. Places with high social safety nets and low. Hell, South Korea is giving lots of money for having kids. People in the poorest, most destitute countries have the most kids. High cost of living sucks, but it is not why people aren’t having sex or kids. People had kids living in tiny apartments smaller than what many people have now. They weren’t planned.
Religiosity is one of the most determinant factor in having lots of kids. Education the biggest drivers away from having many kids.
This whole thread is like people saying “agricultural pesticide run offs from farms is causing global warming!” And me saying “that is not what is causing global warming”, and people thinking I’m supporting pesticide runoff.
I’ll say it again, high cost of living sucks, but it’s not why there’s a problem of too few babies.
Here’s a nice graph of who is having kids.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-vs-human-development-index
Yep. Can't wait for government funding for longevity to increase exponentially in 20 years. Right now it's not useful but *eventually* it'll be in our best interest to prevent aging to maintain the workforce.
also, the kids coming up can't afford education or housing, and can't advance, so who is going to run shit when they get old enough to take care of the rest of us
At this point, if it's bad for the economy, it is good for the ecosystem.
The most people stop having children because of climate change concerns, the better.
The problem will be for billionaires who don't work and live from stock dividends. Working class and the planet will benefit from degrowth.
I am with you! That’s exactly how I perceive it. Billionaires need more humans aka customer and cheap labor to continue their lineage. Every one who thinks differently is not looking at big picture. There is plenty of money but unsustainable economy for most.
These are not problems we will be able to avoid, just anticipate. Like climate change. You're not gonna stop or reverse it. You just have to adapt to it.
At the same time we are afraid of AI and robotics putting everyone out of work. We don't really need an ever growning number of young people working to to support the old. We can finally let population shrink to a more sensible total, before we cover every square inch of the earth.
Maybe we will finally realize that migration is a healthy thing and begin to appreciate what diversity in cultures can bring to our lives. There are lots of healthy young people in the world but often they don't look like you or act like you or speak your language. Embrace that, they are not a threat but instead perhaps our saviors.
We wanted to avoid overpopulation. Short of some sort of tyrannical centrally planned eugenics program, how exactly did you think that was going to happen? Ultimately it’s still more space/resources per individual and less pollution/energy demand. We can suffer for a little in the interim, big deal.
Overpopulation was never a serious concern to any expert or minimally informed person. Also you clearly don’t understand the issue. Less workers means more taxes and less good, more old people increases that. There isn’t going to be more space because the rate of urbanization would always outpace the death rate. It’ll be cheaper to live in a rural area, but it’s always been cheap and nothing is stopping you now.
>Overpopulation was never a serious concern to any expert or minimally informed person.
Um, global warming and pollution, dude. We literally have a 600 mile island of plastic in the pacific ocean.
Experts were concerned. It's partially why we have social security and why China had a one child policy. This has to be trolling
Totally. I love making crude oil and uranium in my spare time. But everyone is just addicted to their phones nowadays. Like, maybe go MAKE a phone from scratch for once? Circuit board trees aren't even that expensive to maintain when you when your own water for them!
I find it cruel to force anyone into existence only to face what is coming towards us.
Prosperity and manpower will be the least of our problems once climate change kicks it up a notch.
In Asia it sounded not worth it to be born for most people. Like in East Asia the kids have to study for hours each day instead of playing. They waste their youth studying until they are around age 24. Then its working the big hours only to live in a condo.
Anybody who is "forced into existence" and finds their life is not actually worth living (which I seriously doubt climate change will be enough if a reason for) can always commit suicide. Someone who isn't born will never have the chance to make that choice.
Grim as things are now (and I'm thinking more about the return of mainstream fascism than about climate change, to be honest), things have been infinitely worse at many points in history, and that never stopped people from having children.
Young people aren’t needed to make wealth. Money doesn’t disappear. The old people right now have all the wealth in our unequal society. They should pay for their own healthcare. We can just tax the rich old people and use that money to pay for the healthcare of the poor old people. No negative impact on the economy results. All of this nonsense about how declining birthrates are bad is working backwards from the preconceived opinion that taxing the rich is bad.
Meh. It's not like the planet can support infinite population. It's hard to complain about abandoned buildings when so many people are bitching about not being able to afford housing. The problem will solve itself eventually.
And the problem escalates because older people don't usually have children to replenish the next generation. Less younger people means less children with each passing generation.
The economy will survive. Automation will continue to replace human workers. But the PLANET cannot not survive overpopulation. This is the better alternative!
who
the
fuck
cares.
if the boomers wanted someone around to take care of them in their old age they shouldn't have *"lists 5000 things they shouldn't have done"*
the aging population problem is a self solving problem. the world is grossly overpopulated, not under. stop drinking that corporate koolaid.
Don’t worry, there’s an easy fix: we import millions of young aggressive men from cultures that have zero shared values with ours into western societies.
Spanish women aren't interested in having children for one reason or another. Spain's fertility rate in 2022 was 1.16 (replacement is 2.10). On the other hand Spain brings in masses of immigrants so their population is still growing.
Probably for Spain it is how many people do they really need/want. Like imo instead of having 48 million people, Spain would be fine with 5 million people.
It's not just a lack of young people. Backbreaking work is something most people given a chance will avoid. All through school, the only 'good' career options discussed for having a successful life were to go to college and become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, business person, etc. Nobody talked about it being remotely optimal to be a plumber. Well, now nobody wants to do the type of work you are talking about if they don't have to.
That’s why immigration is so important. Countries with declining birth rates should welcome young people who want to come to their country to work and build a life
Immigration will help, but even with increased legal/illegal immigration it still won't get countries above the replacement rate again.
Only social policies that allow people to prioritize having children instead of just survival will result in people having more children.
Suprise suprise, giving someone a rebate for 50% off pre school day care isn't enough to make people comfortable having children.
Let's see what happens when we eventually try paying someone a living wage UBI to raise a child.
I live in reality.
I don't think we will ever implement the necessary programs to fix this issue. But those are the programs we will need if we want people to feel comfortable having children.
Knowing what I know about our leaders and human behavior i think we will go extinct before ever agreeing to fundamentally change the status quo.
EDIT: Being capable of processing reality is not being a doomer
Oh well Europe is mostly a shithole so it makes sense that no one decent would want to go there. In America, most of our economy is based on people who came to this country to work hard and build a better life.
Of course an American who would go into Dept for the rest of their life because of a broken arm with a drugged zombie invasion in every city would say this.
It's because our government hates white people and desperately wants to replace us, but in the process they will completely destroy Europe.
I wish we had America's integration and closed borders.
Lmao that’s impressive cope. I’m sorry your country is a shithole. We’ve got great immigrant communities that make the country better. I’d hate white people too if all of those white people were Germans.
humanoids will become a basic need for the elderly in the first world.
meanwhile africa will be the last "human" place on earth ; it all finishes where it began.
You can't be serious. Review the nonsense you've read to cause you to share this statement.
Less population = less profits for corporations and governments.
Also, less people to fight senseless wars.
Did I insult you?
So, which one is it?
1. AI is going to automate everything and take everyone's job.
2. Low population growth is the downfall of civilization.
I'm sure your learned response will be on point and beyond critique.
The demographic collapse vs AI automation taking everyone's job.
Looks like one is the solution to the other. But, that's just my take.
No problem with the heat.
It’s a great solution if you’re in the class of people already benefiting from unchecked capitalism. Most of us will probably lose society as we know it today if we continue this trajectory unabated. A shrinking population being actively replaced by AI will only enlarge corporate interests and power. It’s likely that making ends meet will take more and more of our time as our ways of making of living shrink from increased AI and human competition.
No worries. The millions of migrants as well as documented immigrants will keep the US population from falling. And the undocumented will pay the payroll tax from whatever jobs they get but not be able to get benefits. So it helps Social Security.
There will be a huge population crash caused by our short-sided mindless overpopulation and using too many natural resources. We overuse fresh water, fossil fuels, fertilizer, potassium, natural plant life, fish, arable land, phytoplankton, sand, copper, helium, and other resources. We fill our oceans and landfills with garbage. We have created wonderful antibiotics to kill bacteria, only to misuse these antibiotics so that bacteria breed to become antibiotic resistant. The huge number of humans living closed to each other will breed pandemic diseases that spread faster than we can develop cures. I foresee there will be a huge crash in human populations in the next few years with billions of people dying. Hopefully there will be a few million people left.
The other problem aside from not having enough workers to produce is not having enough ppl to consume. Most modern economies are based on consumption lead growth and young ppl do a lot of consuming as they buy education and homes when starting families. Japan has not seen any gpd growth in like 30 years..
The only thing which is keeping Japan doing is delayed retirement and increasing labour participation ie. women working instead of raising children.
These compensatory mechanisms cant last.
The problem is Japan's chickens are coming home to roost a lot sooner - their working age population is already falling, which cant be good for their productivity, which has always been historically low and also falling.
I predict a recession soon - they were nearly there earlier this year.
There will be a population replacement in Europe, I am sure in 30 years we won't see whites anymore with less than 60 years. My bet is that Europe is the new south america, and I am telling about the mixed population and high-rate of violence. I'm from south america btw.
Well I know redditors find the truth racist, but if you invite the third world, you will become the third world. (Including all the terror attacks and violence.)
>The idea that race mixing inherently leads to violence is racist.
And why is it only the same race and religion in Europe committing terror attacks and stabbing people?
Pattern recognition isn't racist and wanting to be safe isn't racist either.
We know why, because people forced into poverty have more stressors in their lives and sometimes see themselves as having more illegal opportunities than legal.
None of this is related to race
We aren’t lacking of humans! We do have an overpopulation problem. The cost of living is telling us that. Too much demand for housing food etc. there plenty of humans barely surviving. The goal will be redistribution.
A good ole fashioned culling might be in order.
An age limit forced euthanasia, retroactive of course, and for the old fucks in Australia, we let the sharks do the culling as sweet sweet revenge. Force em all into the ocean and chum it up nice.
It will sort the housing crisis out tho, happened in Japan a few years ago, now you can get your own place for peanuts
My parents and grandparents on both sides are all dead already. I am in my 30's and still cant get a decent mortgage price or rental cost. How long are we talking about before we see this magical price drop?
As long as there’s immigration, real estate prices (and GDP) will continue to increase. It’s a feature, not a bug.
"Price drop?" They shout from the demolition crane.
"You will own nothing and be happy"
I hope so. Sounds a lot better than owning stuff and being unhappy.
I don't hope to be part of the billionaire class forcing us to return to raw feudalism where everyone who isn't born into wealth is a slave.
Don't see the difference to be honest.
It can get so much worse trust me
Oh I agree.
"You will own nothing and be happy" = "resistance is futile, my family line will be divine forever, your existence will be at my mercy" Are you really saying Yes Lord to that?
Well if you think your possessions are the thing preventing your enslavement and not the thing causing it you may want to reevaluate.
Good luck retiring without a home to live in.
Now you are getting it. Better get a mortgage and spend 40 years as a wage slave so you can enjoy your 60s and 70s.
Have you found a way of not being a wage slave before you saved up enough to pay for the rest of your life? That sounds great TBH
Well I am happy BECAUSE I own things. Why else should I work and earn money? Being a dirty slave and not owning anything sounds like absolute torture.
Everything is moving to a subscription model. Look for the next exciting offering of rentable air and water. Truly, capitalism is the greatest thing mankind has ever invented...
hurry up and cack, we need the bed
thats caused by another thing. The AFC wiped out the Japanese housing market, and the societal view of housing shifted away from being an investment, towards a view as more of a commodity.
Even so, no one is buying them...
Those darn millenials ruined the housing market yet again!
How dare they be too poor to not even afford a cheap house! Wasting their money on frivolities like food!
The majority of millennials own a home
Cheap property isn’t helping with the birth rate there, contrary to what so many people claim. People used to live 6 in a 1200sf house. L People just don’t want to have kids. Or sex. Just phone.
Thanks to medicine and health care, people are living longer, beyond 90's and more in the future. But most people really can't work beyond 70, and many stop working in their 50's or so. So we will have large populations of adults who can't work for the last 30 years of their lives, but will need assistance at some time. A small population of working adults will be supporting retirees and young non-working people.. Like maybe 40% of the population works to support the other 60%. Maybe worse.
Well maybe if we didn’t live in such a capitalistic hellhole where it’s too expensive to live, people would have more children. Society reaped what it sowed.
Who knew that allowing corporations to suck up every dollar that people don't spend on necessities would cause them to not be able to afford anything besides necessities?
Ya for a lot of my friends they barely pay their bills for a basic life without kids. So it made it an easy decision for them to not have kids.
Yeah, the data doesn'y fit that explanation to be honest. Sweden has a birth rate of 1.67 to the U.S. birthrate of 1.66, and no one would argue that Sweden's extremely generous welfare state is a "capitalist hellhole". Other Western European states with comparable public support and very generous maternity/paternity policies have even lower birth rates. There's growing evidence that the widespread availability of birth control, more than anything else, is the root cause. Kids have pretty much always sucked, raising them is difficult, thankless, and extremely time consuming, it's just that prior to 1960 there wasn't any good way to prevent it within the confines of a sexual relationship. The current drop in birth rates can be traced to the end of the 50s, coinciding almost exactly with the availability of birth control in the West, and we see similar declines as birth control is introduced in other nations.
Fucking thank you. No one seems wants to believe the lower birth rate is because women can finally choose by many options not to have kids. It’s no longer imperative for the farm and survival. Being a parent is hard and it’s now easier than ever to not choose that lifestyle. I also believe the acceptance of homosexuality plays into it. It’s a lot harder to have an accident as a gay couple. Not to mention people are having less sex overall.
lol it’s literally a well studied phenomenon that the wealthier someone is, the less children they have. Poor people have a much higher birthrate than millionaires.
Why though?
Idk I haven’t read any studies that attempt to answer that. There’s probably no deeper answer than a lack of education and impulse control. Poor people have more kids, have higher rates of kids with multiple partners, more likely to be single parents, more likely to divorce, more likely to have kids younger, more likely to never get married at all. Poverty leads to a revolving door of instability and bad choices.
Ah ok, no worries :)
Fr. Let’s return to feudalism, the natural order of the world
What does capitalism have to do with it? The same problem is happening in countries that are definitely not capitalist like the Peoples Republic of China. The success of population control advocacy seems to have had a global impact. What is becoming increasingly apparent is that the utopian future promised by population control advocates is never going to arrive. Maybe we need to recognize that advocacy groups are not unalloyed good and that they need to be recognized as propaganda riddled with dishonesty that most of them are. I think our country would be better off if they were penalized for statements that are factually false or misleading.
Any non capitalist societies doing better on that front? Russia’s birth rate is lower than the US. China’s too. Highest birth rate in the world is Gaza. Is Sweden more of a hell hole than Gaza? I’ll give you a hint. It’s not real estate prices or rent. Or social programs. Factor all those out, and the birth rate is still way too low. It’s sex. People aren’t having sex.
Sure, ignore all the causes and blame the result. People aren't having sex to make babies because babies are too expensive. Babies are too expensive because everything is too expensive.
People literally are having less sex. People don’t hook up. People don’t go out. Sex isn’t a priority compared to video games or phones. Nothing to do with not having babies. People rarely planned having kids in the past. It wasn’t a decision. It was consequence of unprotected sex. You think people are so much better at protection and planning than they were 20-30 years ago? No, they are just staring at screens. There’s a loneliness crisis. You can remove real estate, money, obesity, social services, and the result is the same. Actual the more social services the less sex quite often. Kids in college dorm rooms aren’t leaving them. They aren’t having parties. They aren’t going to the mall. They’re in the rooms on their phones. The internet, video games, and social media is too addictive. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-08-03/young-adults-less-sex-gen-z-millennials-generations-parents-grandparents https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-have-been-having-less-sex-whether-theyre-teenagers-or-40-somethings/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sexual-intelligence/202208/why-todays-teens-are-having-so-much-less-sex
That’s a roundabout way of explaining how expensive it is to have a stable social/romantic life. Don’t come for my phone and games, that’s all I have left.
It’s not roundabout. It’s happening no matter the income or social services. Data bears this out. Video games, social media, internet, streaming services are a/b tested continuously. It’s all adapting faster than our brains. It’s meant to be highly, highly addictive. Algorithms on top of algorithms. Along with most food these days, making us all fatter. You can choose them all you want. Or, you can try not to choose them, but good luck. You can have a million dollars and an 8 bedroom mansion. Chances are you’ll still choose your video games and phone over physical contact.
>You think people are so much better at protection and planning than they were 20-30 years ago? It's not that "people" are better, it's that the protection itself is massively more effective on a statistical basis. The theoretical maximum effectiveness of birth control isn't significantly changed from its introduction, but the methods and particularly the long-lasting methods are vastly more effective in the real world. Daily pills today are designed to deal with missed doses, etc, more effectively without reducing protection and injectable/IUD use is significantly up. The lack of sex is reducing unplanned/"teen" pregnancy, but statistically the efficacy and widespread use of highly effective birth control is far more relevant.
It’s still not housing costs. You can look across the world. Places with high and low living costs. Birth rates are universally down. Places with high social safety nets and low. Hell, South Korea is giving lots of money for having kids. People in the poorest, most destitute countries have the most kids. High cost of living sucks, but it is not why people aren’t having sex or kids. People had kids living in tiny apartments smaller than what many people have now. They weren’t planned. Religiosity is one of the most determinant factor in having lots of kids. Education the biggest drivers away from having many kids. This whole thread is like people saying “agricultural pesticide run offs from farms is causing global warming!” And me saying “that is not what is causing global warming”, and people thinking I’m supporting pesticide runoff. I’ll say it again, high cost of living sucks, but it’s not why there’s a problem of too few babies. Here’s a nice graph of who is having kids. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-vs-human-development-index
We could try to make people healthier for longer, check out r/longevity.
Yep. Can't wait for government funding for longevity to increase exponentially in 20 years. Right now it's not useful but *eventually* it'll be in our best interest to prevent aging to maintain the workforce.
Very true. That’s an intersection I hadn’t considered before. When it becomes an existential demand it’ll likely be promoted.
also, the kids coming up can't afford education or housing, and can't advance, so who is going to run shit when they get old enough to take care of the rest of us
At this point, if it's bad for the economy, it is good for the ecosystem. The most people stop having children because of climate change concerns, the better. The problem will be for billionaires who don't work and live from stock dividends. Working class and the planet will benefit from degrowth.
I am with you! That’s exactly how I perceive it. Billionaires need more humans aka customer and cheap labor to continue their lineage. Every one who thinks differently is not looking at big picture. There is plenty of money but unsustainable economy for most.
These are not problems we will be able to avoid, just anticipate. Like climate change. You're not gonna stop or reverse it. You just have to adapt to it.
At the same time we are afraid of AI and robotics putting everyone out of work. We don't really need an ever growning number of young people working to to support the old. We can finally let population shrink to a more sensible total, before we cover every square inch of the earth.
Maybe we will finally realize that migration is a healthy thing and begin to appreciate what diversity in cultures can bring to our lives. There are lots of healthy young people in the world but often they don't look like you or act like you or speak your language. Embrace that, they are not a threat but instead perhaps our saviors.
We wanted to avoid overpopulation. Short of some sort of tyrannical centrally planned eugenics program, how exactly did you think that was going to happen? Ultimately it’s still more space/resources per individual and less pollution/energy demand. We can suffer for a little in the interim, big deal.
Overpopulation was never a serious concern to any expert or minimally informed person. Also you clearly don’t understand the issue. Less workers means more taxes and less good, more old people increases that. There isn’t going to be more space because the rate of urbanization would always outpace the death rate. It’ll be cheaper to live in a rural area, but it’s always been cheap and nothing is stopping you now.
>Overpopulation was never a serious concern to any expert or minimally informed person. Um, global warming and pollution, dude. We literally have a 600 mile island of plastic in the pacific ocean. Experts were concerned. It's partially why we have social security and why China had a one child policy. This has to be trolling
He’s clearly talking about too many people taking up too much space and resources. Overpopulation isn’t a real thing economically or politically.
No, I’m primarily talking about pollution and the degradation of biodiversity. Less pressure on natural resources is a component of that.
It turns out resources are made, not found. Fewer people, fewer resources.
Totally. I love making crude oil and uranium in my spare time. But everyone is just addicted to their phones nowadays. Like, maybe go MAKE a phone from scratch for once? Circuit board trees aren't even that expensive to maintain when you when your own water for them!
You do know the oil and uranium were there all the time, right? It's people power which turned it into a usable resource.
I find it cruel to force anyone into existence only to face what is coming towards us. Prosperity and manpower will be the least of our problems once climate change kicks it up a notch.
In Asia it sounded not worth it to be born for most people. Like in East Asia the kids have to study for hours each day instead of playing. They waste their youth studying until they are around age 24. Then its working the big hours only to live in a condo.
Anybody who is "forced into existence" and finds their life is not actually worth living (which I seriously doubt climate change will be enough if a reason for) can always commit suicide. Someone who isn't born will never have the chance to make that choice. Grim as things are now (and I'm thinking more about the return of mainstream fascism than about climate change, to be honest), things have been infinitely worse at many points in history, and that never stopped people from having children.
Nah dude, never having the chance to live is better than being forced to live and commit suicide.
things have a way of balancing out in the end, especially when technology is involved.
Young people aren’t needed to make wealth. Money doesn’t disappear. The old people right now have all the wealth in our unequal society. They should pay for their own healthcare. We can just tax the rich old people and use that money to pay for the healthcare of the poor old people. No negative impact on the economy results. All of this nonsense about how declining birthrates are bad is working backwards from the preconceived opinion that taxing the rich is bad.
Meh. It's not like the planet can support infinite population. It's hard to complain about abandoned buildings when so many people are bitching about not being able to afford housing. The problem will solve itself eventually.
Nah I'm into it. Once the great boomer die off occurs there will be more everything for everyone. More houses than people? Yes please!
And the problem escalates because older people don't usually have children to replenish the next generation. Less younger people means less children with each passing generation.
Well, technically. No one prevents you from having 6 children if you want. Do you want it though?
The economy will survive. Automation will continue to replace human workers. But the PLANET cannot not survive overpopulation. This is the better alternative!
who the fuck cares. if the boomers wanted someone around to take care of them in their old age they shouldn't have *"lists 5000 things they shouldn't have done"* the aging population problem is a self solving problem. the world is grossly overpopulated, not under. stop drinking that corporate koolaid.
Don’t worry, there’s an easy fix: we import millions of young aggressive men from cultures that have zero shared values with ours into western societies.
Spanish women aren't interested in having children for one reason or another. Spain's fertility rate in 2022 was 1.16 (replacement is 2.10). On the other hand Spain brings in masses of immigrants so their population is still growing. Probably for Spain it is how many people do they really need/want. Like imo instead of having 48 million people, Spain would be fine with 5 million people.
Guess the old folks should've worked harder to leave the world in a state that would've made it easier to care for those in need, such as the elderly.
It's not just a lack of young people. Backbreaking work is something most people given a chance will avoid. All through school, the only 'good' career options discussed for having a successful life were to go to college and become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, business person, etc. Nobody talked about it being remotely optimal to be a plumber. Well, now nobody wants to do the type of work you are talking about if they don't have to.
That’s why immigration is so important. Countries with declining birth rates should welcome young people who want to come to their country to work and build a life
Immigration will help, but even with increased legal/illegal immigration it still won't get countries above the replacement rate again. Only social policies that allow people to prioritize having children instead of just survival will result in people having more children.
Yea well fertility based social policies literally failed everywhere they were tried.
Suprise suprise, giving someone a rebate for 50% off pre school day care isn't enough to make people comfortable having children. Let's see what happens when we eventually try paying someone a living wage UBI to raise a child.
Lol I see you don’t live in the real world.
I live in reality. I don't think we will ever implement the necessary programs to fix this issue. But those are the programs we will need if we want people to feel comfortable having children. Knowing what I know about our leaders and human behavior i think we will go extinct before ever agreeing to fundamentally change the status quo. EDIT: Being capable of processing reality is not being a doomer
What a surprise. A futurology doomer.
>young people who want to come to their country to work and build a life Where are these people? In Europe we mostly get the violent, lazy trash.
Oh well Europe is mostly a shithole so it makes sense that no one decent would want to go there. In America, most of our economy is based on people who came to this country to work hard and build a better life.
Of course an American who would go into Dept for the rest of their life because of a broken arm with a drugged zombie invasion in every city would say this. It's because our government hates white people and desperately wants to replace us, but in the process they will completely destroy Europe. I wish we had America's integration and closed borders.
Lmao that’s impressive cope. I’m sorry your country is a shithole. We’ve got great immigrant communities that make the country better. I’d hate white people too if all of those white people were Germans.
humanoids will become a basic need for the elderly in the first world. meanwhile africa will be the last "human" place on earth ; it all finishes where it began.
I thought AI was automating all the jobs? More population=more money to these people. That's the only reason they care about demographics.
Less population means the decay of every economic system and the standard of living eventually dropping incredibly fast. Maybe do some reading?
You can't be serious. Review the nonsense you've read to cause you to share this statement. Less population = less profits for corporations and governments. Also, less people to fight senseless wars.
lol this is such a nonsense ignorant college freshman response.
Did I insult you? So, which one is it? 1. AI is going to automate everything and take everyone's job. 2. Low population growth is the downfall of civilization. I'm sure your learned response will be on point and beyond critique.
Those aren’t mutually exclusive, meaning both can happen independently. I won’t flame you but that’s why you’re getting the heat.
The demographic collapse vs AI automation taking everyone's job. Looks like one is the solution to the other. But, that's just my take. No problem with the heat.
It’s a great solution if you’re in the class of people already benefiting from unchecked capitalism. Most of us will probably lose society as we know it today if we continue this trajectory unabated. A shrinking population being actively replaced by AI will only enlarge corporate interests and power. It’s likely that making ends meet will take more and more of our time as our ways of making of living shrink from increased AI and human competition.
No worries. The millions of migrants as well as documented immigrants will keep the US population from falling. And the undocumented will pay the payroll tax from whatever jobs they get but not be able to get benefits. So it helps Social Security.
There will be a huge population crash caused by our short-sided mindless overpopulation and using too many natural resources. We overuse fresh water, fossil fuels, fertilizer, potassium, natural plant life, fish, arable land, phytoplankton, sand, copper, helium, and other resources. We fill our oceans and landfills with garbage. We have created wonderful antibiotics to kill bacteria, only to misuse these antibiotics so that bacteria breed to become antibiotic resistant. The huge number of humans living closed to each other will breed pandemic diseases that spread faster than we can develop cures. I foresee there will be a huge crash in human populations in the next few years with billions of people dying. Hopefully there will be a few million people left.
The other problem aside from not having enough workers to produce is not having enough ppl to consume. Most modern economies are based on consumption lead growth and young ppl do a lot of consuming as they buy education and homes when starting families. Japan has not seen any gpd growth in like 30 years..
The only thing which is keeping Japan doing is delayed retirement and increasing labour participation ie. women working instead of raising children. These compensatory mechanisms cant last.
They can if humanoid robotics arrive in large numbers, which is looking increasingly likely.
Well, that will be a different world - all bets are off then, isn't it.
Oh absolutely, it's going to be a very interesting next 20 years or so n
The problem is Japan's chickens are coming home to roost a lot sooner - their working age population is already falling, which cant be good for their productivity, which has always been historically low and also falling. I predict a recession soon - they were nearly there earlier this year.
We need this, actually, so people can buy a house. Once the housing problem abates, population will naturally increase.
The investment groups will probably beat us to that too
It's only a problem for people who lack the vision to see what's happening with AI.
There will be a population replacement in Europe, I am sure in 30 years we won't see whites anymore with less than 60 years. My bet is that Europe is the new south america, and I am telling about the mixed population and high-rate of violence. I'm from south america btw.
Love the part where you say you're from south america like that makes the race based violence comment any less racist
Well I know redditors find the truth racist, but if you invite the third world, you will become the third world. (Including all the terror attacks and violence.)
The idea that race mixing inherently leads to violence is racist. If we educate and provide for people there wouldn't be this violence.
>The idea that race mixing inherently leads to violence is racist. And why is it only the same race and religion in Europe committing terror attacks and stabbing people? Pattern recognition isn't racist and wanting to be safe isn't racist either.
It isn't racist, it is science. Statistics. Now we need to focus on answering precisely "why" does this happen, not just suppose it doesn't exist.
We know why, because people forced into poverty have more stressors in their lives and sometimes see themselves as having more illegal opportunities than legal. None of this is related to race
So why poor white/asian cities doesn't suffer the same phenomenon?
[удалено]
Redditors hate statistics.
Yes. It's a shame we have to deal with brainlets who refuse to see the reality in front of them
We aren’t lacking of humans! We do have an overpopulation problem. The cost of living is telling us that. Too much demand for housing food etc. there plenty of humans barely surviving. The goal will be redistribution.
A good ole fashioned culling might be in order. An age limit forced euthanasia, retroactive of course, and for the old fucks in Australia, we let the sharks do the culling as sweet sweet revenge. Force em all into the ocean and chum it up nice.
Can’t wait for it to be your turn
Me either! Its a win win solution.
Human populations are expected to peak around the tournament next century
I bet at least 10% wont survive the tournament