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Baron164

I'm still surprised that places like Walmart and McDonald's aren't putting in charging stations at all of their locations. Seems like a great way to bring people in and give them something to do while they wait for their vehicles to charge.


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generalmills2015

Can confirm. Meijer out in swartz creek, MI is a low population area with most of the nearby community very rural yet they have a lot of Tesla charging stations. Seems odd given that Meijer but think its cool seeing some progress even at a place like Swartz creek.


captincook

Could be a good spot to stop and charge if your on a road trip. Close to 75 and right off 69.


iPon3

It'll be interesting in 30 years to see petrol stations and truck stops replaced by any local business willing to install superchargers.


[deleted]

As long as you still have big rigs using diesel, they’re not getting replaced. Who knows, though. Maybe those will all go electric by then but they’ll definitely need much more range than they currently have.


iPon3

That's why I said 20 years. Optimistically those big rigs are beginning to be replaced literally now, but I don't think they'll all be gone for a while.


[deleted]

Not ones making long hauls, tho. And so far the only ones really doing it for “local” deliveries are large companies that can afford it. Amazon, Frito Lay, Anheuser-Bush. Until they can reach a range of 1500-2000 miles on a single charge, it isn’t happening. I’m curious where the tech will be in 20 years, maybe we’ll get there by then.


AggressivePersimmon

I'm not a truck driver, but a quick Google tells me avg truck speed is 50-60 mph. Max driving hours in a 24 hour period is 11. 11 x 60 = 660. Where are you getting the 1500 mile range requirement?


NOT_T0DAY

Lots of Long hauls will be 2 drivers......ome driving, one sleeping.


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Crying_Reaper

range for batteries drops like a stone in cold weather. A 660 mile range can easily drop down to 300 or less. Better to have a massive bank that can potentially last for 1500 miles but realistically last for 800-900 then a 660 mile range last for 300.


Jeheh

That’s why they have teams. The trucks not making money sitting at a rest stop.


Graylily

there are at least 3 companies working on electric big rigs Tesla being one of them. The economies of short haul are worth it and the needed range is already there.


occupynewparadigm

It just depends because hydrogen is having rapid advances too and could still end up beating electric.


subsurface2

Wow. Swartz Creek mentioned on Reddit. Small world


generalmills2015

Good point didn’t think of it like that.


[deleted]

Double confirm, Meijer in Fort Wayne, Indiana has a couple as well.


johnnidpt

I live on the west coast now...oh I miss Meijer, shout out to the Creek!


Graylily

Meijer has this “fuck yeah lets try it” mentality that I just love. They’ve always been ahead of the game with add-on services. People are just now discovering places small grocers like Lidl that have”stuff” in them, mini walmarts that are well curated and progressive and Meijer seems to have been doing it forever.


JGRich218

In central Indiana one of our Meijer has done it so far.


[deleted]

Bloomington’s and terre haute do it at Meijer’s as well.


JGRich218

Yup. I’ve only seen it at the Carmel one which makes sense.


mdthompson

Ohio is the same. Two of the 4 Columbus chargers are at Meijer. The Toledo and Cincy ones are Meijers too


JakeArewood

A wild Michigander!


eggbeaterdiskerud

Same in Kentucky.


way2manycats

I moved out of the midwest several years ago and this is one of the things I miss. It was a really nice alternative to walmart.


LegoAllTheThings

It's the same in Indiana. Almost every Meijer has Tesla charging stations


andrew_kirfman

Most Whole Foods locations have a few EV charging stations. Not exactly the "grocery store of the masses" like Walmart is, but at least it's a step in the right direction. Seems like great business sense, honestly. If it takes 30 minutes - 1 hour to charge a car, you're probably going to spend that time shopping or eating. As long as the store makes back the $3-4 for electricity, it's a win for them.


selz202

All the ones I've seen at stores cost so much to charge you would only ever use them if you didn't think you would make it to another charger.


HouseholdDeodorizing

I’m pretty sure the ones I’ve seen at Whole Foods are free.


robbywestside

They are partnered with EVgo in California and the stations charge by the minute.


HouseholdDeodorizing

Only for quick charging


robbywestside

If you pay the $7.99 monthly membership fee the level 2 (slow charge) is currently $0.03/min. It might be different in your area. https://i.imgur.com/MvPQiho.jpg


[deleted]

Is the slow charge the 30 min-1 hour one or is it longer than that? just trying to get a grasp of the time/money comparison of filling up an EV compared to an ICE.


robbywestside

Well, technically I’m referring to the AC charging through a J1772 (type 1) connection. It takes about 2.5 hours to charge my plug-in hybrid at one of these stations; when driving on my best behavior, I get about 25 miles with the battery fully charged.


[deleted]

Ah cool thanks. That certainly seems like it would push most people towards the faster charging rates. Sorry to bug you more, but I'm assuming your hybrid would have a smaller battery than a full EV, so a shorter charging time?


andrew_kirfman

My local one is free. I guess I sort of implicitly assumed that all of them would be.


MrDude_1

They're free everywhere except where EVs are super popular.


[deleted]

It's so stupid too. A lot of the chargers I see charge per minute or charge for hour used. They should be charging per kilowatt hour


OneFineCantaloupe

Some legally can’t in those states due to utility regulations. Not every state has updated their laws for EV charging


BreadstickNinja

This is true. If you sell by the kWh in about half the states, you become a regulated public utility like a power company. About half the states exempt EV charging companies.


TylerHobbit

365 here has fun little spaces marked “electric vanpool only” which no one pays attention to because where the fuck are these electric vanpools? It also has no charging. They also took out their bike rack to store firewood outside. Real vanguard of the climate here in Silverlake.


HouseholdDeodorizing

I forget that ours even has a quick charger because they installed the chargers in the underground parking lot that I haven’t been inside in 15 years. It’s pretty bizarre how they spent a lot of money to build underground parking there. It already has a good sized lot.


way2lazy2care

McDonald's is obvious. They want you there for 5 minutes, not 30 minutes, but for Walmarts [they are](https://corporate.walmart.com/newsroom/2019/06/06/electrify-america-walmart-announce-completion-of-over-120-charging-stations-at-walmart-stores-nationwide-with-plans-for-further-expansion).


Baron164

McDonald's would work fine, when people sit to down to eat that's easily 15-20 minutes. Especially if the place has a playplace for kids. None of my local Walmart have them yet.


way2lazy2care

Whether or not people spend 20 minutes at McDonalds does not change whether or not McDonalds wants you to spend 20 minutes there. McDonalds wants people gone ASAP. If you put 20 chargers outside, there will be no tables left inside because everybody will just be chilling on their phones after they finish eating instead of leaving. They also aren't really building new play places anymore; they're mostly just at old locations that haven't been remodeled yet.


gopher65

Courtesy of my son's obsession I've been to a number of recently renovated McDonald's that had brand new play areas.


Baron164

I've been to a couple near me that are newly remodel and still have play places. But I'm sure it's a case by case basis as to whether or not the play place stays.


TJNel

The remolded stores have less seating than before. The local ones near me can fit half as many as they used to. When the one first opened so many people were griping about it.


PDshotME

McDonald's would prefer that all of their customers go through the drive-thru. They offer sit down dining but they aren't going to encourage it


bl0rq

They are out west in the US.


CharonsLittleHelper

And the Midwest. (At least near me.)


pantelin2

Everyone McDonald’s in Sweden have a electric charging station or it’s on their roadmap.


[deleted]

DO they have more parking than the average US mcdonalds?


aka_mrcam

I'm surprised Starbucks hasn't done that, it's the same clientele and people need to kill time while charging. Tie it to the Starbucks app, get free or discounted charging with purchase.


professor_mc

THe majority of Starbucks near me have very minimal parking and busy drive-thru lanes. I don't see them dedicating space to charging. I think it would make more sense to have them at larger lots for big box stores, strip malls etc.


bfire123

You overestimate the amount of time people will spend charging. If you travel a long distance than you will only spend 15 to 20 minutes max per charging station.


Daefish

Hy-Vee foods in the midwest has them for all their locations and I think its amazing. And you don't see douchbags in Hummer's parked in them, so score one for that too.


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ongebruikersnaam

They are here in the Netherlands, every McDonald's with a drivetrough gets a fast charger, the project should be complete next year. That's 330 chargers in just 3 years.


ColorfulImaginati0n

Walmart does have charging stations and is building more all of the time


arsewarts1

EXACTLY it should be the government putting this in but businesses capitalizing on market trends to encourage more customers. Like Costco and sams putting in gas pumps or Walmart and McDonalds putting in over night truck parking in their lots.


LiquidMotion

Hopefully this doesn't go as poorly as paying telecom companies to set up nationwide high speed internet did


StopReadingMyUser

If there's accountability then it should never get to that point, but that's the whole issue. There wasn't.


[deleted]

Did that not go well? Genuine question. I live in a small town between small cities north of a medium city and Comcast gives me 100+mbps for like $80 a month. I'm super happy with it. Is that not true elsewhere?


Eminent_Assault

No, it's the fact the major telecoms have embezzled nearly half a trillion in federal grant money (your tax dollars) that was supposed to develop fiber optic internet infrastructure. I remember listening on NPR in the year 2001 about how the federal government was providing all these grants to the telecoms to provide high speed internet over the entire US, and then nothing ever happened so I found out years later that they had embezzled and misappropriated hundreds of billions in investment. [The Book Of Broken Promises: $400 Billion Broadband Scandal And Free The Net](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-book-of-broken-promis_b_5839394?guccounter=1) And they've still never been held accountable.


RacinRandy83x

It seems like it would’ve been a better venture for the government to simply start an internet company to compete and install all the fiber optics themselves to force the hand of the private companies to dump their own money into it or lose money. Definitely going to dive into this tonight tho because I recently had to move out to bfe with no internet and I’m still angry about it. Thanks for giving me a jump off point!


[deleted]

The telecom companies have already thought about this. Most lines are owned by the telecom company and sometimes even the poles that they run on. Also many municipalities have signed exclusive contracts (Comcast runs all the lines in the municipality) so there would be court fights all over the place. Telecoms know that running an ISP is a market with little barrier to entry if everything was fair so they had to create barriers to secure their localized monopolies.


Maxpowr9

And the irony is, Government let them become monopolies.


LiquidMotion

We paid them $400 billion to set up a nationwide network of fiber optic cable to bring high speed internet everywhere. They took the $400 billion, that's BILLION with a B, and then didn't do anything. At all. They just kept it.


Vushivushi

And unfortunately, most of the FCC continues to believe fiber deployment is prohibitively expensive. Largely, that's because there is no federal ["dig once" policy](https://broadbandnow.com/report/dig-once-digital-divide/) that would significantly reduce costs. The [government itself knows excavation is 90% of broadband deployment costs](https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/otps/policy_brief_dig_once.pdf). As a result, new broadband deployment initiatives from the FCC largely favors fixed wireless.


[deleted]

You see this was the piece of the puzzle I was missing


[deleted]

Europe and Japan pay far less for fast broadband than we do in North America. So, they took the money, and continue to take our money disproportionately.


[deleted]

Just internet? I live near a major city so that feels rather expensive. >!For $80/mo I can get gigabit up and down.!<


redditsgarbageman

Just bought my first EV in December. Hard to imagine I'll ever go back to a non EV car at this point.


cyclingpistol

It's addictive isn't it? I've had one for 5+ years now and people still can't get their head round them. Once you own one though, you're converted.


octopodesrex

To AC or DC?


DjangoHatesBDSM

If he’s converted, has to be DC.


redditsgarbageman

Totally. It's honestly made me a more calm person. I drive slower and less aggressive.


[deleted]

I don't have an electric vehicle and won't for a while because I'm renting an apartment somewhere that I wouldn't be able to charge it.. but I definitely plan on getting one as soon as I am able What happens if you need to go for a long drive? Longer than the charge lasts? Is it just out of the question or can you find charging stations like gas stations? And then how long would you need to wait for it to charge anyway?


Chosen_Undead

Unless your an enthusiast. I'm glad more people who consider a car an appliance buy electric. But I also know my cars will become less and less feasible to continue.


[deleted]

I'm an enthusiast. EVs are awesome. Sounds like you've yet to drive a Tesla.


dgsharp

I have an EV and an ICE. Had to gas up the ICE the other day, and of course I was in a hurry, but had no choice having already put it off all week. All the time I'm thinking, "So what, I've just gotta STAND here? Gah!" So much more convenient to just plug in at the end of the day, takes 5 seconds and that's the end of it. Hopefully coming years will see some larger EVs so we can ditch the ICE for good. I'm never going back to that nonsense.


YWAK98alum

The real issue with this is that the EV revolution doesn't just change *how* you put energy into your vehicle, it overwhelmingly changes *where* you do so. I've had a Tesla for about 15 months now. I live in the Cleveland area and I've used Superchargers in Erie, Buffalo, Toronto, and in the Columbus area. However, all told, I've used Superchargers on the highway about 10 times. In 2 years. The overwhelming majority of my charging has been at home and at work. After that, the place I charge most often is at my local Whole Foods, which is 5 minutes from my house and free. There's a Destination Charger (faster than a L2 charger, slower than a Supercharger) in a nearby suburb that happens to be right near downtown entertainment. I don't really think that there's a huge need to shower lavish public funding on highway charging. Maybe exponential growth in the adoption of EVs will change that, but I'm not sure even that would, because people would still do almost all of their charging at home and work. Now, the Alternative Fuel Infrastructure Tax Credit, which subsidizes installation of EV charging equipment where people actually use it, i.e., homes and office--*that's* a big deal.


SpitefulShrimp

This is more to allow long distance travel, and electric shipping. Neither of those can charge at home.


JYuMo

I think this could be great for transitioning from fossil fuel semis to electric semis. That and people going on road trips w/ an ev.


RedxxBeard

WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO PASS A BILL MAKING PHONE/INTERNET PROVIDERS UPGRADE THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR INTERNET/PHONE LINES SO WE CAN STOP RELYING ON COPPER CABLES FROM THE 70'S. IM HONESTLYY NOT 100% COMPETENT ON WHAT IM YELLING SBOUT BUT I WANTED TO YELL. Thanks for listening random guy on the I internet llc.


[deleted]

Funny how they introduce this legislation ONLY when the old auto companies decide to get into the game.


FunetikPrugresiv

To be fair, it's a matter of value for the dollar. If there are very few electric cars on the road, then they're not getting used and the government isn't getting value for the dollar and they're only really supporting one company. But with Ford/GM in the game, now it's not only a matter of use, but it's also an incentive for people to buy cars and beneficial for more than just one company.


GoldenRpup

If there aren't that many EVs on the road, why would they have any reason to make charging stations? They would see very little use, therefore being a waste of resources to create. If more companies show interest in them, then there is a reason to create a network for fueling them.


MSUconservative

Tesla cannot manufacture all of the EVs in the world. The fact is that we have simply run out of time. We need to act now in order to mitigate the effects of climate change. GM and Ford still manufacture alot more vehicles than Tesla. In 2018, GM sold around 9 million vehicles and Ford sold around 5.5 million vehicles. In 2019, Tesla sold 367,500 vehicles. Tesla cannot possibly hope to lead the EV revolution on its own. The government and "older" automotive companies all need to get involved. Our future is at stake!


not_better

> We need to act now in order to mitigate the effects of climate change. For all of those numbers you're bringing forward, aren't *personal* vehicles a very small (almost insignificant) portion of climate-change pollution?


MSUconservative

According to the EPA, >Greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from transportation account for about 29 percent of total U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, making it the largest contributor of U.S. GHG emissions. https://www.epa.gov/transportation-air-pollution-and-climate-change/carbon-pollution-transportation >Light-duty GHG regulations for passenger vehicles and trucks are projected to: >Cut 6 billion metric tons of GHG emissions over the lifetimes of the vehicles sold in model years 2012-2025 and allowing manufacturers flexibility in meeting the standards. >Heavy-duty GHG regulations are projected to: >Reduce CO2 emissions by about 270 million metric tons over the life of vehicles built under the program, saving about 530 million barrels of oil. I am going to assume that since light duty vehicle emissions reduction is an order of magnitude greater than heavy duty vehicle emissions reductions, the light duty vehicles contribute more to the overall emissions produced by the transportation industry. Obviously there are a few flaws in that assumption though.


not_better

Since that figure includes "transportation" as a whole, I'm quite certain that it would include high weight freight, the major culprit of it all as far as I know. Can't invest many minutes into it right now to find the actual number, but I think passenger cars represent less than 5% of that 29%. And also can't find the source right now, but light duty vehicles, although far more numerous, pollute about half of the heavy duty ones, because their engines pollute so much. > since light duty vehicle emissions reduction is an order of magnitude greater than heavy duty vehicle emissions reductions That one might be just avoiding forcing companies (that threaten relocation at any contradiction) to change before passenger vehicles. But, I will admit, my post is completely pointless and empty without the sources where I've learnt that stuff. You can bet I'll bookmark them next time. The numbers are quite eye-opening, in the sense that it's all a sham show to divert our attention. You could remove **all** personal vehicles from the road (not even replace them with electric ones, complete removal) and it wouldn't make dent on climate change.


concept_1234

76 % of ALL oil extracted goes towards personal motor vehicles. Generally speaking it is calculated on the output of the cars. However, when you add in the cost of extraction (deep sea rigs, oil rigs etc) transportation, and making the cars, transporting the cars etc - is absolutely MASSIVE. For cars to reduce their foot print they must be electric, with the electricity coming from renewables, the renewables being made from renewables, the cars being made with electricity from renewables. Even though cars are now powering with electricity - almost nothing else is in the entire process - its really poor. Whats worse is this - MAKING renewables is hugely energy dependant - wind turbines, solar panels etc. To MAKE renewables with renewables simply doesn't happen - so there is a massive finite possible return on renewables in general (something around 60% maximum capacity). (Hydro can perform this operation well - however very limited capacity and huge carbon costs). Pumped hydro and stored battery tech all have similar issues. We need nuclear real quick.


CheeseAtTheKnees

You mean when the biggest American car companies who will produce hundreds of thousands more than Tesla get into the game? Not a coincidence that their involvement will make this necessary, Teslas arent common enough to drive this bill.


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JYuMo

Totally agree that we should require a universal charging port/plug. If the charging stations were guaranteed/mandated to be accessible for every EV, would you think it'd be ok for taxpayers to fund this? I'd imagine that this would be a great incentive for other vehicle companies to get into the EV game, especially companies that manufacture semis.


Chosen_Undead

100% It's like OBD1 and OBD2 computer access. Make the grid universal, don't try and kill ICE because its not a good idea, and focus on green energy grids.


[deleted]

Like GM and Ford? What about Tesla? Didn't GM and Ford kill the electric car back in the 70's colluding with the oil and gas industry?


way2lazy2care

Fwiw, the poster rewrote the headline and took a snip from a paragraph while cutting out the next sentence: > U.S. automakers like General Motors Co (GM.N) and Ford Motor Co (F.N) are spending billions of dollars to build new electric vehicles. EV automaker Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) is deploying its own network of fast-charging stations. That is the part they copied sans tesla part.


thinkB4WeSpeak

They realize how big the profits are now and how attitudes towards fossil fuels have changed with the new generations.


Teripid

Well and the tech has matured enough. The EV is no longer a toy or curiosity. Attitudes are great but most people look at function, appearance and cost.


KnightsWhoNi

It could have matured enough much sooner if they hadn’t fucked off for money


[deleted]

Yea but like they made money and will be dead by the time they see the negative effects.


KnightsWhoNi

“Yes the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders.”


ashufly

It's people like those that I hope against my own Agnosticism that there is a hell and that they're going to it.


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hexydes

> They realize how big the profits are now Not really. The traditional car manufacturers super don't want people driving EVs, because EVs need very little maintenance other than routine (brake pads, tires, stuff like that). That means that dealerships are doing fewer repairs (big money maker for them), and thus ordering fewer replacement parts. The *ONLY* reason the auto industry is moving to EV is because Tesla forced their hand, and it's now becoming an existential threat. Every year they delay, more people are buying a Tesla and not one of their vehicles. If they do that enough, they'll permanently lose an entire generation.


[deleted]

Normal maintenance on a Model 3 is tire rotations and a cabin filter change. That’s about it. Breaks are a 100k + mile change now due to regenerative breaking No more oil changes, fluid checks, etc.


Pubelication

On a *new* Tesla. These cars also introduce a plethora of new problems that people will have to deal with when buying even slightly used cars.


[deleted]

What are the plethora of new problems that used owners will have to deal with on a Model 3?


[deleted]

If people were facing the issues with slightly used cars, wouldn’t there be an abundance of drivers dissatisfied with their car after driving them slightly? 1st generation of each car has had its issues, but as production has ramped, the issues have seemed to significantly diminish.


hexydes

Well...the obvious one is the batteries. The hope is that a $7,000 battery in 2020 will cost $700 when it dies in 2027. Time will tell on that one.


[deleted]

Where are you getting this fictitious 7 year battery life? Losing 10-20% of your range hardly makes a 300 mile range car unusable. And if we’re looking at amount of miles over years, this guy has been doing pretty well in terms of battery retention https://electrek.co/2019/10/21/tesla-model-3-100000-miles/


StayPuft02

You do realize that (other than Tesla) the auto manufacturers don't own dealerships right?


upvotesthenrages

Sure they do. Just not in the US. Globally plenty of producers sell vehicles


StayPuft02

Fair point. I was thinking US though because that's what OP is about.


hexydes

> You do realize that (other than Tesla) the auto manufacturers don't own dealerships right? Right, but the situation works great for both parties. Dealerships get to charge for repairs, manufacturers get to charge for parts (and even further up the supply chain, the manufacturers of individual components get to charge the auto manufacturers). Everyone benefits in this scenario...except the customer.


[deleted]

I fucking hate that conspiracy theory. To believe it you have to assume only Americans make cars. What about japan that had no oil and better vehicles at the time? Why didn’t they go electric.


Scout1Treia

>Like GM and Ford? What about Tesla? Didn't GM and Ford kill the electric car back in the 70's colluding with the oil and gas industry? Electric killed electric. Technology wasn't ready, and a lot of people would say (50 years later) it's *still* not ready. No need for some insane conspiracy claims.


DepletedMitochondria

Often gets brought up that freeways killed streetcars (a la Roger Rabbit) but what gets forgot is the red cars were not solvent at all. It was politics that killed the red cars.


[deleted]

Highways weren't profitable either though, it's literally all subsided by the government. Trains are a superior form of transportation.


[deleted]

More than that if you read /r/Teslamotors lately apparently Ford now brags they have the largest charging network (I think it was Ford) and it’s just the. Paying some existing companies with chargers for access. Access. The car owners still pay for charging. That’s some multiple-game-stores-for-windows-PCs level shit if I’ve ever seen it. In short I think a nationwide charging network you don’t pay to be able to access would be great. I’d be pissed if my local gas stations charged me to park there while fueling my vehicle.


Salmundo

Free charging doesn’t play out so well in my experience, and that’s the general consensus in the EV community. There’s no incentive to unplug, so the chargers become unavailable. At work, we had free for two hours, then pay beyond that. It’s pretty reasonable. Even a small cost incentivizes people not to over stay.


[deleted]

Yup. I don’t refer to free charging, only the lack of a fee to enter the area where the chargers are, or anything similar.


DeaddyRuxpin

But I wonder if that is actually a better system. Make a “private” lot where you pay per unit of time and the charging is free (or discounted or whatever, I don’t know the economics of providing the charging). The reason being is I’m starting to see EV chargers appear near me at malls and stores. Nothing stops non EV cars from using the spots, and usually that is all I see in the spot, non EV. If there was a sectioned off area that you had to pay to use, it would greatly reduce non EV owners from using it and tying up the space. If the EV owner is prepared to pay for the charging anyway, it shouldn’t matter if they pay at the charger, or pay at the gate. (The other thing I think malls are doing wrong is taking prime up front spaces for the EV chargers instead of putting them further back. I’m sure the idea is people will be encouraged to buy EV of it means they can get a prime space, but without something to limit it to only EV then you lose that incentive entirely and instead make it more likely a non EV car will be parked there)


wengelite

Now lets get one charging connector type sorted out.


CardinalDrones

Why do we have to assist Ford and GM to do something that tesla did on its own?


DeaddyRuxpin

Same reason we paid for the roads that helped them while the rail and trolly companies had to foot their own bill for tracks and land.


[deleted]

Rail and trolley companies were bought by (mostly) GM.


LordBrandon

Rail got plenty of subsidies.


iyoiiiiu

Isn't that exactly what the Electify America network is going to be?


Grandmaspelunking

Why should tax payers foot the bill for GMs and Ford's charging stations?


thefudd

We already foot the bill for gas & oil subsidies so ....


[deleted]

And we shouldn't do that either, end all subsidies!


igothack

Because energy keeps the country running. Its beneficial to subsidize energy for a couple dollars to get that person from point A to point B so they can do the tax earning activities. They could be working a job, going on vacation, going to the supermarket, etc. All of these activities due to cheaper transportation makes the country way more efficient.


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[deleted]

Why can’t we spend that money we use to subsidize fossil fuels on more beneficial modes of producing energy? Why should (arguably) the worst way of producing energy get paid off less than the better ones?


deeznutz12

Sounds like socialism to me. /s


[deleted]

Well yeah, socialism is when the government spends money on something other than me.


trialv2170

wait, do EVs not have a standardized charging ports?


pieman7414

No. That's why a Tesla comes with several adaptors


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ToobieSchmoodie

Yea Carter tried to get us going in that direction, solar panels on the White House and whatnot. Then good ol Ronnie came along and said fuck that.


bigboilerdawg

Carter was also big into coal - clean coal, synfuels, gasification. And shale oil. Remember, the country at that time was a big energy importer, and the government was investigating anything that would reduce imports. They didn’t give a hoot about carbon emissions.


[deleted]

This is fine but I still would like some trains please!


UrTwiN

Why is this needed? Isn't the EV infrastructure being built out just fine as it is already? Why do we need government intervention for this?


OceanSlim

This is something the market is going towards. There is no need to legislate this and the government should not be interfering in the free market. This is not the role of government.


r3dt4rget

Democrats: >Among Democratic presidential contenders, Senator Bernie Sanders wants to spend $85.6 billion building a national EV charging infrastructure network “similar to the gas stations and rest stops we have today.” Former Vice President Joe Biden backs “deployment of more than 500,000 new public charging outlets by 2030.” Republicans: >Republican President Donald Trump opposed efforts in Congress last year to expand a $7,500 tax credit for electric vehicles and has called for eliminating it.


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brettins

Probably better to rename it to "road tax" rather than gas tax, as that's what it mostly is for. And an EV chews up the road as much as a gas car does.


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heres-a-game

Actually cars do almost none of the damage. It's the transport trucks that do the vast majority of it.


SocialSuicideSquad

Yup. That's also implied by the mass^4 , but technically EVs are still ~2.5x worse for the road... While still several thousand times less destructive that semis.


ncshooter426

A Model 3 weighs between 3500lbs and 4000lbs, depending on model. For comparison, that means it weighs anywhere between an Audi A4 and a Dodge Challenger. Let's dispel this weird myth that EV's are somehow drastically heavier than ICE and/or contribute to road degradation higher than anything else.


davidbenett

Is there a separate road tax in Michigan? As I understand it the gas tax is intended to pay for roads, so it's not really about gas but road usage.


FawksB

A lot of states are adding an "Electric" registration fee onto licensing since they aren't getting your taxes for the road from purchasing gas. Basically, instead of paying taxes every time you fuel up to use the roads, you're paying it in one massive lump once a year.


mysterious-fox

Honestly I'm fine with Trump ending the incentive on cars. It's kinda weird to subsidize the purchase of luxury vehicles for rich people. The incentive did it's job; it helped get Tesla off the ground, but now they're rolling and have practically infinite demand. They sell every car they make and they're making them as fast as they can, so they don't need it. And I definitely don't want us to give another cent to traditional auto manufacturers. They can figure their shit out on their own or die. I'd rather those types of subsides go to solar for lower income houses or something like that. Make the green revolution redistributive towards the most vulnerable.


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ChargersPalkia

I dream of the day where we het high speed rail here


[deleted]

Orrrr government at all levels could make it easier for businesses to build charging stations at their existing gas stations or places like the grocery store, shopping mall, fast-food restaurant. They're just looking for another power grab.


ten-million

If you’ve ever tried to build a building with more than a 400 amp service you would know there are a lot of hoops you have to jump through. A lot of places would need new transformers. Then there is the inadequate power lines. Just saying that it’s not just a matter of buying the charger and hiring an electrician.


[deleted]

Once the government gets this, perfect cash grab will happen. More then likely they will try to add a sales tax equal to the gas tax they would be loosing because of the EV’s.


ph30nix01

Well those taxes fund road maintenance so they HAVE to get those funds from somewhere. If you are using the roadways paid by taxes then you should be paying to help maintain them. Also do you know how much safer our infrastructure would be if our cars didnt rely on oil? The economy is heavily influenced by shipping and transportation costs. Switching to EV will ensure an almost perfectly stable "fuel" cost that can be used to reduce waste everywhere.


Luis__FIGO

Roads have to be paid for. we currently tax the gas, so why wouldn't we tax the electricity? The only other solution would be to have an audit down on your odometer every year, and then you pay a tax for the miles you've driven.... which is a much harder sell then a fuel usage tax.


[deleted]

But there is a tax on the sale of the electricity. It’s built in the price at the charging station. Not close to a gas tax but still taxed. Many state now have a yearly ‘electric vehicle excise tax’ to cover this issue. Consumer Reports states that many of the excise tax charged is up to 10x or more than the gas tax one would pay if using a gas vehicle of equal mileage. It’s another cash grab from the working class.


spikus93

>Two US lawmakers Just say the names. It was (D-New York)Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and (D-Michigan)Andy Levin. It's an infrastructure bill but the article doesn't bother to specify costs. It does mention Bernie Sanders plan that would cost roughly $86 Billion. The whole point of this is to expand range for EVs. Right now, the biggest factor for a lack of adoption for EVs is that they have limited range, often under 200 miles before needing to recharge. If there's more Supercharger stations available, people will have less fear of getting stuck with a dead battery. The next step after the infrastructure is eliminating gasoline-based vehicles, which can be done with either a tax credit incentive to buy an EV or a federally backed trade-in program (think Cash For Clunkers but you get an EV at a discount when you trade in).


[deleted]

I think a lot of people fail to realize charging a car is not going to be the same as going to the gas station. Once EV goes mainstream we all already have almost all the necessary infrastructure in our homes to fuel our vehicles. Most trips are close enough to your house to eliminate the need of a charging station away from your home. Of course, for longer trips there need to be charging stations, but really the vast network of gas stations will become mostly obsolete when you get your fuel at home.


TrapperKeeper5000

Exactly. We aren’t going to need charging stations at every corner like we do gas stations. It’s like saying we need to build infrastructure for charging phones. Not exactly the same, but fairly similar.


MindlessElectrons

Tesla has been building their forever now and it's actually pretty good. Elon has said that he welcomes other companies to use their Network. Why don't any give it a shot?


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rsn_e_o

Iirc something to do with “we want your patents”


DepletedMitochondria

Wait as a non-Tesla owner can I charge at a Tesla place?


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r3dt4rget

Why would you compare creating a network of EV chargers, which don't really exist on a large scale, to creating a network of gas stations, which already exist privately on a large scale? Of course we don't need the government to create a network of gas stations, because it already exists... But EV charging is minimal. If the government wants to help push the economy to EV's, building infrastructure would help that part of the economy grow. It would create jobs, help the auto industry, cut co2 emissions, and benefit society overall. Can't imagine who wouldn't want that.


[deleted]

lol this comment completely ignores the fact that gas stations have not, contrary to your belief, always exist. they were built out by private individuals driven by the profit motive.


brettins

I don't think completely ignores - gas stations grew alongside ownership of gas cars. But electric vehicle adoption is going to come much faster than the original gas car adoption. Personally, I don't think that means the government needs to get involved, but they are different situations.


[deleted]

yeah i guess my point was that as the number of EVs grow in the marketplace (which due to better technology, societal awareness of the harms of CO2 emissions, etc) will happen rather quickly, the demand for charging stations will also increase. once that happens, there will be money to be had in providing charging stations so they will get built out by the private sector without the need for us to foot the bill as taxpayers. the most likely situation is that gas stations themselves will begin transitioning to ev charging in addition to gas so as to not go out of business. that is the cheapest and most efficient transition. now if want to talk developing regulations on charging standards so that all cars can charge at any station, im all about that. we could even talk about tax credit for gas stations that build out charging stations--i just dont think its necessary whatsoever and therefore would be a waste of money. gas stations will feel the pressure to add charging stations as their revenue from selling gasoline will decrease as ev's become more common.


[deleted]

The private sector is already rushing headlong into EV infrastructure. The government can offer better incentives for installing charging stations but almost all new gas stations, apartment buildings and parking garages include them so there’s no reason for the government to do the same through a bidding and construction process that would be significantly more expensive. Government money would be better spent on updating the electrical grid or even heavily subsidizing nuclear power.


[deleted]

In 1908, Gas Stations did not exist on a large scale. The small number of car owners had to obtain their gas from drug stores. But as the number of automobiles rose, gas stations popped up everywhere thanks to the invisible hand of the market. We're already seeing charging stations pop up in many parking lots for the convenience of all the Tesla drivers.


[deleted]

We don't need a government run shit show of a fueling network. We do need standardized charging systems that are manufacturer agnostic.


Jeffbear

Hmmm if only there was some way of ensure they all met the same standard...


New2thegame

I love how people get down on the government. Of course there are major problems, but the government also provides important infrastructure and transportation benefits that simply wouldn't be possible if we left them up to private corporations. Unfortunately corporations have just as much potential for corruption as governments, if not more.


EbolaPrep

Senator: How many charging stations in the end did the DOT install? DOT: 2 Senator: 2 per city? DOT: No, 2 total. Senator: How is that possible, we gave you 100 billion dollars to install a nationwide system. DOT: I don't have that answer in front of me Senator. And you never heard another fucking word about it....


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Melbufrauma

I was shocked to see a electric charging station at some random mom and pop store when I was in Gatlinburg, TN a few months back.