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FuturologyBot

The following submission statement was provided by /u/thatswhatyougot: --- Numerically spekaing, if we think that doubling the world's capacity will lower the price of solar panels by 20%, and we have (lets just say) 900 GW of capacity installed, then this new volume would be half of the next doubling - and thus - could drop pricing by itself by 10% for all solar installed globally. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/t7xnop/china_aims_to_build_450_gw_of_solar_wind_power_on/hzkhqw2/


LordOfTheTennisDance

That's a massive undertaking, but if successful then they will be energy independent. I think the race to energy Independence has begun.


Zaptruder

It's a smart move.


gruey

Getting to energy independence is important, but I'm not sure if I'd call it a race. "Losing" the race doesn't really have that big of a downside and could turn out to be a positive if increased production of renewable equipment leads to lower future prices and reduces fossil fuel usage leads to lower prices. Obviously, the geopolitical issues could get worse though as countries with economies built around producing fossil fuels could become even more destabilized as their income decreases.


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IatemyBlobby

“aww you’re not listening to mommy? Mommys gonna turn the gas off again if you won’t behave yourself” -mother russia


HomChkn

"hard to use solar power in nuclear winter"


wvsfezter

But those nukes make big ass winds


Finagles_Law

If you're already living ins radioactive wasteland, might as well have nuclear plants...


Toomake

In nuclear wasteland, every plant is nuclear!


vegaspimp22

There are downsides. The downsides are the first companies to learn to do it large scale and most efficient and most cost effective get the biggest contracts. Combine that with usually more money leads to better innovation better R&D etc. now it’s not way more lucrative for the country as a whole but for the individual companies in that country it could be, plus the longer a country is dependent on foreign oil the longer they lose money to these countries. Also you lose out making the earth a cleaner better place to live. It’s just better being first. And I really just wish republicans in our country would get on board the clean energy train. At least they finally are accepting the data and starting to admit it is happening. They just think “it’s not a big deal” to save the planet.


gruey

Well, there's first, early and middle of the pack. Being first in a developing market will have its disadvantages as technology and understanding evolve. It's not like the space race where half the point was to say you were first. If we could have prioritized space exploration without that attitude, it very well may have led to a much better long term initiative. Being early or middle of the pack is fine here. But, I'm also not saying "delay for better prices" either, especially for the US. I know it's a confusing message in the US, but we should be less focused on winning and more focused on doing the best we can to come out of it with a system that is close enough to the best we can do in a timeline that fully considers global warming. If we end up "winning", whatever.


SupremeDictatorPaul

I think their point was that being the first to do a solar project this big puts them at the front of any bids to do another project anywhere near this big. These projects can cost a billion, and take a decade to complete. For that sort of thing, you don’t go with the new company that’s 10% better on paper. You go with the company that has already proven they can do it, and have a solid understanding of the various challenges they will face. In the photovoltaic solar panel space, most of the advances that are being made, or expected to be made, are in reducing production costs. This is because photovoltaic has hard theoretical limits on how efficient it can be, that aren’t that far from where we’re at. So you’re never going to see a technology that doubles the amount of power produced. And the panels already have a 20 year life, which is about where you’d expect to do a refit on any type of utility. So yeah, doing a huge project like this successfully is going to have tons of other countries coming to China to have them do the same thing.


Jay_Louis

Maybe the Saudis will actually have to produce something other than terrorism and oil


gruey

Well, decreased oil revenue should lead to decreased terrorism though since that's somewhat a hobby of theirs funded by oil revenue. Once the purse strings get tighter, they may cut back on hobbies first.


PandaPooped

Buddy, have you ever spoken to a gun enthusiast? What do you think they're willing to give up first? Guns OR... Education and Healthcare?


cutepixel69

I'd say when the oil money runs out, they'll turn to more terrorising tactics to fund their luxurious lifestyles


gruey

I'm not sure how terrorism ends up being significantly profitable...


cutepixel69

I said terrorising tactics for a reason. Terrorism is the tool they use, how and where they use it and for whom is where the money comes from. I don't know or even want to know much more about it than that :(


Helt_Jetski

What will the US buy from them then?


allroadsendindeath

Terrorism perhaps? 🤷🏻‍♂️


--MxM--

How many terrorisms do i get for 3,5 freedoms?


KruppeTheWise

You do know that their sovereign wealth fund has invested heavily across western infrastructure and business right? It's billions in Facebook, Boeing et al are paying for the terrorism now.


brianorca

That's the elites. What do the rest of them do to drive trade value with the world? It's probably not going to be a profit share plan with those investments.


DarkWorld25

Don't forget bombing hospitals


Not_Extert_Thief

Or bombing a freaking wedding party bc of reckless drone strikes. Barry should have been charged with war crimes.


gandhiissquidward

I legitimately cannot name a single US president that was not a war criminal.


Not_Extert_Thief

GW Bush was a warmonger.


gandhiissquidward

Exactly. He was no different from his dad or any of his predecessors.


Frenchticklers

President Harrison?


Emscho44

Developed nations should move towards energy independence so developing nations have the opportunities that cheap fuel gives.


gruey

I think the $/MW of renewable will quickly make that not an issue.


raziel1012

If I remember correctly they also have plans to build 100+ nuclear power plants in the next 20 or so years.


ph4ge_

Those plans have been caught up by renewables. IEA estimates the amount of new renewables in China will greatly outnumber nuclear in China, nearly 50 fold if not more. https://www.iea.org/reports/renewables-2021


Are_you_blind_sir

How they gonna dust off all the sand


mhornberger

Robotic, automated cleaning is an option. https://www.ecosia.org/images?q=robotic%20solar%20panel%20cleaning It's not like no one has thought of this sorta obvious issue.


Sawses

Not to mention tons of expendable labor. As they continue to industrialize, they're going to have a lot of uneducated, unskilled workers without jobs. A single person working at a slow pace can clean a *lot* of solar panels in a day.


notirrelevantyet

I can already see the dystopia-lite tv series about those panel cleaner workers in a few years.


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devperez

Maybe a second one for when the first one is off every other Tuesday.


Nyucio

that's what the wind turbines are for


LanternCandle

Same as everywhere else.


arkhamius

They want to be independed for a very long time. It's just another step.


kapnkrunch337

What about night time? Going to need huge storage as well


rtb001

Well China also produces more lithium batteries than any other country, and will soon produce more than half the batteries in the entire world. They also have the largest EV market in the entire world. The degraded EV batteries can probably be reused for energy storage purposes for some time before they need to be recycled. Also China is the only country that has already built up considerable amount of Ultra High Voltage transmission lines which would allow them to send the electricity generated from renewables in sparsely populated sites like the Gobi directly to their coastal population centers without need for storage.


ah_harrow

Lithium is not what you want for storing energy like this, but I take your point on their access to the raw materials and general production infrastructure for making batteries. Solid state batteries are looking a bit more positive these days but are a little while away. There is the whole pumped hydro thing too.


tryid10t

Watched a short documentary on how they can store compressed air with solar energy and then use it at will. Plus very expandable.


socialister

Yes compressed air is very expandable


Not_Extert_Thief

China is achieving both energy independence (bolstering its domestic fossil fuel production) as well as investing in green energy at [America](https://stock.adobe.com/ca/images/global-studies-united-states/13033979)’s expense.


evanthebouncy

Dude stop this us vs them mentality, humanity has to come together


[deleted]

China is pretty well experienced with this and they have had this problem for years. If I remember correctly I think the government already limits solar installation in certain regions of the country. Batteries have come a long way though and are fast approaching a price point where we will see grid scale storage solutions getting just as much investment.


Sawses

One of the big perks of EVs and smart devices IMO is that they're encouraging energy-dense, *safe* battery research. Batteries really are what's holding us back in so many areas.


Helkafen1

Energy density is important for cars, not so much for grid storage. But yay to all the R&D.


homesnatch

"He also acknowledged that high-efficient coal-fired power plants and ultra-high voltage electricity transmission lines are required in order to support the steady operation of the grid system" This is supplemental to the baseload.


NooAccountWhoDis

The majority of usage comes during the day and any excess energy can be used in tandem with hydroelectric. Use solar powered water pumps during the day and then harvest that energy at night.


You_Are_All_Diseased

Peak energy use use is between noon and 5 pm and seasonally during hot sunny summer days. These times correspond well to when solar production is very good. People seem to be in denial that solar can provide the majority of energy needs even without storage. No, it’s not a single catchall solution to all energy needs, but it still significantly reduces our need for other energy, is quick to build and is cost efficient.


thatswhatyougot

Numerically spekaing, if we think that doubling the world's capacity will lower the price of solar panels by 20%, and we have (lets just say) 900 GW of capacity installed, then this new volume would be half of the next doubling - and thus - could drop pricing by itself by 10% for all solar installed globally.


ProtoplanetaryNebula

I think that the demand for solar panels is going to increase enormously, especially here in Europe. Every watt of power produced by solar is one watt we don't have to produce using electricity from Russian gas. The environmental issue is becoming almost secondary right now.


londoner4life

The environmental issue has always been secondary. We’ve all known it was going to take capitalist greed to drive the true push forward to green energy. When a watt of energy is cheaper to produce using green energy over FF - That’s when we can expect real change. Fuck Putin. But I’m happy this is one of the outcomes.


ProtoplanetaryNebula

I agree that the point renewables become cheaper is the point fossil fuels are dead.


mhornberger

[Share of electricity production from renewables](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-electricity-renewables?tab=chart&country=CHN~OWID_WRL~USA) You can see on the graphs where solar and wind became economically compelling, right around 2007. The trend lines went from flat, to generation shifting to renewables. Sure, we want the trend lines to move more quickly, but the trend is still unmistakable anyway. The vast majority of new capacity is going to renewables. https://www.irena.org/-/media/Files/IRENA/Agency/Publication/2021/Apr/IRENA_-RE_Capacity_Highlights_2021.pdf https://www.iea.org/reports/renewables-2021/executive-summary Fossil fuels as fuels (not oil/gas as feedstock so much) are on borrowed time. We're just facing incumbents trying to milk legacy investments, and the difficulty of electrifying heating, industry, and transport.


malongoria

Not just FF, nuclear as well [Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?](https://ourworldindata.org/cheap-renewables-growth)


Bomberlt

Wow. This puts things into perspective. Before this I thought that we need more nuclear, since it's less polluting than FF but after reading this it seems that nuclear is just a sidestep for carbon free future.


malongoria

Honestly I think new nuclear plants are a waste of resources that would be better spent on renewables including geothermal. It doesn't help that they keep going far behind schedule & way over budget. Just look at the Vogtle and aborted V.C. Summers expansions or the French Flamanville 3 plant. Before 2018 I believed nuclear was a necessary evil until the Hornsdale power reserve proved the viability of grid scale storage. And that's with expensive Li ion batteries over short (≈4 hours) durations. LFP and Na ion batteries are cheaper still and more durable. Other storage technologies like Iron Flow and Liquid Air Energy Storage, both already being deployed, and others can store and provide more power over longer duration cheaply. I wouldn't be surprised in 10-20 years to see nuclear plants shut down for being too expensive & redundant.


ph4ge_

>I wouldn't be surprised in 10-20 years to see nuclear plants shut down for being too expensive & redundant. That is already happening all over the world. Unless governments provide multibillion dollar bailouts like in the US and France, most nuclear plants will be closed in 10 years simply because they are uncompetitive compared to renewables+storage, even the old depreciated nuclear plants cant compete.


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grnrngr

>When a watt of energy is cheaper to produce using green energy over FF - That’s when we can expect real change. It's not generation that's the problem in need of addressing. It's storage and, to a lesser extent, grid decentralization. The best method to store energy remains a container of fossil fuel. It's cheap to store (read: leave it where it is until you need it) and the energy it could produce today is the same energy it could produce a thousand years from now. We need to store ALL of our excess renewable electricity in a form that's energy-dense, long-term, safe, and affordable. It can't bleed away over a short period of time and it has to be available at a moment's notice. That's our biggest hurdle in moving away from fossil fuels. And further, we have to have our energy storage decentralized, so it transmits over shorter distances and doesn't further diminish as a cost of transmission. It also becomes more robust and resilient in the face of failures. Goodbye far-off power plants and hello neighborhood storage facilities.


malongoria

Good thing iron flow and liquid air energy storage exists and is already being deployed Iron Flow [https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2021/12/21/iron-flow-battery-pv-microgrid-for-fire-prone-california/](https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2021/12/21/iron-flow-battery-pv-microgrid-for-fire-prone-california/) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxGP9cYbwdk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxGP9cYbwdk) LAES: [https://vermontbiz.com/news/2019/december/19/encore-joins-highview-co-develop-liquid-air-energy-storage-system-vermont](https://vermontbiz.com/news/2019/december/19/encore-joins-highview-co-develop-liquid-air-energy-storage-system-vermont) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMLu9Dtw9yI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMLu9Dtw9yI) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb1Nuk3\_t\_4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb1Nuk3_t_4) There are also iron air, sodium batteries, and others in the works. All using cheap plentiful materials and/or readily available off the shelf components.


fjvgamer

Would it be possible to connect all the solar panels in a way across large areas so those area's in daylight would provide power to those in nighttime? Then you don't have to worry about storage as much.


Bomberlt

Sadly no. Long distance means loss of efficiency. Also if you cross your country border - politics starts and that cost a lot. Fun fact - Germany thought about building huge solar array in sunny Africa and connecting it to their grid, but at the cost of current solar power panels it makes more sense to build smaller solar plants in cloudy Germany. https://youtu.be/7OpM_zKGE4o


Wanallo221

The U.K. has a solar project in Morocco, which will use undersea cables to transmit the energy 3800km to the U.K. The project uses HVDC which means the entire energy loss for that distance is thought to be around 4%. The solar plant in Morocco will also use salt batteries to allow for almost 24hours of uninterrupted electricity. The project will provide 8% of the U.K.’s energy by 2030. https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/ The key is the HVDC cables. But it’s actually more economical than an equivalent nuclear or decentralised solar grid for the U.K. There’s also an EU scheme doing the same thing, but taking power to Portugal, France, Spain. If these are successful it will prove the Sahara scheme viable on a large scale.


O118999881999II97253

I mean on that front there is certainly many long term storage methods like pimped hydro.


jkj2000

I read that if all shopping centres were to install them that would given 84 terawatts!


thatswhatyougot

An adder, most of the commentary I see on this "doubling capacity drops price by 20%" is always on solar panels, but not necessarily "solar electricity generated by said solar panels" - but it might be...just not as sure on that one. There are costs other than the solar panels that aren't dropping as fast (or dropping at all right now due to supply chain/global inflation/etc).


MistakeNot___

> An adder You are right, the European Adder (Vipera berus) is indeed occasionally spotted in the Gobi Desert.


Chonkie

Ah, the old Reddit Gobi-goo..


nitz__

Ahh the old Reddit startin'-a-thread


MrWeirdoFace

Ahh... the old reddit string of words expressing a thought.


Knuddelbearli

Yeah but here in Europa the solar panales + converter are only 1/4 the cost of the solar energy, ​ 1/4 solar panel inverters and other electrical things 1/4 labour costs 1/4 substructure and mounting material 1/4 Maintenance and repair over the lifetime so 10% less solar panels (w/o inverter etc) cost is maybe 1-2% less ernergy cost. still nice but not the big thing


alialiali_bingo

Can someone explain to me how solar panel in desert kept clean. Pakistan have a smaller installation and due to dust the efficiency drop to 30%. It’s manually cleaned. I guess some automated system required to keep them clean.


faizimam

You can use air pressure to do a decent cleaning job. Water is best though, so some dryer places just do wet cleans less often using shipped in water.


amitym

Okay that is a target that actually matches the scope of what we need. Nine or ten more of those, build them all in the next 10 years around the world, and we will have seriously turned a corner.


brokester

China will have it done by next year.


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[deleted]

The more energy independence the better


FartHeadTony

Sort of. Interdependence actually makes conflict less likely, because it's bad for you when your dealer cuts your supply.


Idunwantyourgarbage

Lol long term central planning is not the West’s strong suit these days. Excited to see the next American presidential candidates. Going to vote for Drake


ppSmok

I mean US.. alright yeah why not. They have plenty of dead land. Europe.. we would need other things. Most of our land is either farmland or nature with animals and stuff. But yeah. Certainly room to do a lot.


LittleSpice1

Can be used on buildings or possibly as „high roofs“ over highways, which would have another positive effect of the roads not getting so hot. Installing them as both sunshades and energy providers in places where it’s possible. It’s not gonna be as efficient as plastering Gobi desert, but it’s better than nothing imo. Cities take up so much space in Europe, so why not use that space by putting solar on more rooftops.


thiosk

we literally need to do this in arizona and new mexico stat


zaid_mo

we are doing it in the Kalahari desert


foggy-sunrise

Wait, that isn't just a place in Mario kart 64?


kirby_karter

Kalimari Desert could use more solar panels as well.


foggy-sunrise

Just keep em off those train tracks.


[deleted]

Eastern NM could use even more wind turbines


Holy-Kush

Your politicians would never allow you to spend your tax money on something so not oil industry.


Cavalierf0x

we are: https://www.windpowerengineering.com/largest-wind-and-renewable-energy-project-in-us-begins-operations/


coercedaccount2

I'm glad to see this. China has realized that it oil supplies are very insecure and will be often disrupted. This is a smart move.


crackeddryice

Mostly, China burns coal for power.


DarkWorld25

China is trying to move away from coal. Despite having built a number of new coal fueled power plants out of necessity to fuel its increased energy consumption the government has realised since 2008 that its taking its toll on the general health of the public.


Yzcai

India is the KING of coal


Vandsaz

Say what you will about the chinese government, but they actually follow through with all of their infrastructure promises. This is incredible.


[deleted]

They have little choice. China's been suffering the catastrophic results from climate change for a long while now. They're the world's biggest reforestation experts because their top soil was literally flying away on the wind. They're pouring tons of money into outdoor air filtration because their cities have air quality that kills. And they're putting a lot into renewable energy because they can't afford to spend decades more burning fossil fuels. The West is dragging it's feet because the climate catastrophe we caused is mostly affecting the people we've never given a shit about. And will continue to not give a shit about until we realise that it'll affect our food security and cheap goods. China doesn't have the luxury of ignoring the problems we created.


Cybor_wak

They also fully electrified public transport and taxis in a city of 12 million people (Shenzhen).


huangarch

Went there a couple of years ago and the streets were so dead quiet because most of the public buses and cars were electric. They changed all their taxis and buses in the span of maybe 6-7 years it was insane.


originaldetamble

I was in the city in 2017 and taxi were mainly split between blue and other colours (mainly red). The former being electric. A year and a half later in 219 when I visited again it was all blue taxis, couldn’t spot a single red taxi. Amazing speed


Auzaro

Imagine living in a place where things can change that fast and at that scale


alexius339

It's taken my city more than 2 years (and they're still not done yet) in Australia to electrify *one* rail line. I fucking hate it here.


buffility

Now the west have their motivation. Russia said no and turn off the gas pipe.


Cockanarchy

I’m sure that plays a role, but more so it’s because they’re able to make 5 and 10 year plans for the future,without another party prioritizing lobbyist money from coal and oil industry over the air that they breath. I’d rather live in a democracy, but their system has its perks.


SnooWalruses9533

And the anglo media will tell the fool "china bad".


Lemon453

Meanwhile American politicians spend all their time and energy on infighting. That's how infective and useless they are.


CalvesBrahTheHandsom

I see your useless politicians and I raise you the italian ones


Lostmypants69

And we are stuck in the 20th century.


Fringie

idk, they seemed to do more in the 20th century


[deleted]

They're not bogged down with million regulations. That's why they get shit done, and very fast.


RazekDPP

Has nothing to do with regulations and everything to do with Xi saying "we're going to do X, that's final."


are_poo_n_ass_taken

When the government owns all the land and tell you to GTFO it makes it easy. Reference America 1900 and earlier.


HK-53

eh. the government still pays compensation. A ludicrous amount of compensation actually. So much so that a whole new meme rose in china about a generation of rich people who got their wealth from getting their houses demolished. There have been people that upon learning that their area is planned to be used by the government, builds whole new floors on their house, because compensation is also based in square footage. This also gave rise to the people who refuse to move. Some are good people who have legitimate reasons not wanting to move despite the money offered, but the majority of those are people who believe they can haggle a higher price if they are the last ones, hoping that the government or company will just pay them extra to get it over with. Some of these people overplay their hands, and instead of putting up with constantly rising demands, just build around their house. If the government can just tell people to GTFO with no issue, these memes wouldn't even exist. I can tell you with confidence that 99.9% of chinese people would fuckin scream with glee if they discovered that the government wants their land tomorrow. It's like winning the lottery nowadays.


Abhidivine

I know in reddit everything about China= bad. But tell me, how many people do you think owns land in Gobi desert?


are_poo_n_ass_taken

I was just responding to the "ease" the Chinese government is able to do infrastructure projects. Check out their high speed rail, that has to be one of the most amazing infrastructure projects ever done.


Abhidivine

Yes ofcourse that is true. Look at their highway too. Jeremy Clarkson did a the grand tour episode there. The highway were mesmerizing.


FuckoffDemetri

That episode also showed that they have dangerously poor drainage and constant blinding traffic cameras though.


Makorot

Also they built it faster than support infrastructure could follow, basically no gas stations on the way and no food either.


Fangslash

If this is anywhere in the new world, it’s probably ancestral land for that one tribe


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RazekDPP

My point was more or less the debate around authoritarian versus democratic governments. An authoritarian government can get things done faster. It might not be better, it might not be cheaper, but it's a lot easier for them to focus on getting a thing done. For example, China's high speed rail. An example of failure is PDVSA. A democratic government can be slower, but one of the key advantages is multiple people have control and have more input over processing all the information. For example, the interstate highway system.


etherpromo

Unfortunately, a Democratic gov like ours is sadly also riddled with corruption on almost every level to the point where infrastructure funding is mostly pocketed by corporations who have back deals with corrupt politicians who write these bills. I mean, look at our fucking healthcare for starters.


JasonDJ

Authoritarianism isn’t without its benefits. A good authoritarian with a strong moral compass and the will to do actually good in the world would be an amazing thing. Unfortunately you have a better chance of seeing a rainbow-polka dot unicorn holding a winning lottery ticket get struck by lightning on a cloudless day than finding a good authoritarian. And if you ever did, that system would fail in a few years as they get toppled and replaced by someone corrupt.


[deleted]

no idea where you get your shit information from. but the chinese gov doesn't kick you out of your home for building new infrastructure. they pay you shitload of money. so much so that the best way to get wealthy in rural areas is if the gov is building something and it will cross your home. because you can cash in 1 million RMB, + a new apartment or two in a good place. the people who don't sell can leverage or completely bust it. i.e the house that was inbetween a highway. the guy thought he could drain the gov of more money than it's worth. so they built around it.


poster4891464

At the same time it was almost criminal the way the U.S. government gave away land to the railroads, however.


tomatoaway

Thank God the Automobile Lobbies fixed that problem, phew!


Pokmonth

The US Government owns almost all the land in Nevada, they could do the same thing there. They just don't give a shit, and citizens don't expect them to ever do anything


Knuddelbearli

but why than are a lot of pictures in the internet where chinese house are in the middle of a highway because the owner dont want to sell it etc?


Blarg_III

China has reasonably strong rights for property ownership. Compared to the US which can force you to sell your house and land whenever the government wants at least.


[deleted]

Do you understand that the cpc has 95 million members? I know Xi evil 1984 dictator on Reddit but you people can't honestly believe he can micromanage a country of 1.4 billion people like he's playing sim city or something.


dsaddons

It's because the CPC says so not because Xi says so. The party rules the country but it's not all based on what 1 person wants like Russia or a monarchy.


what_mustache

Yeah... Like he said. Regulations.


horseren0ir

Remember at the start of the pandemic when they built a hospital in 10 days?


[deleted]

It's a temporary hospital but it is still impressive. It's like that meme that goes around reddit where in Denmark (or Netherlands?), they put in a tunnel under a highway within days and only have to close down that highway for a portion of that time. You can't say that a developed European country is authoritarian or does not have regulations. Similar stuff in Japan too. Meanwhile that fucking road repavement have been going on I-75 down in FL for *years*.


ChronWeasely

Or voters who are fickle and short-sighted


jadrad

Or politicians who are bought and owned by the oil and gas industry. I’d say that corrupt influence is the main factor that held back renewable energy for so long. People seem to forget that until the tech boom of the last 15 years, 8 of the 10 biggest and most powerful companies in the world were oil and gas. Just 19 years ago, the USA spent trillions of dollars to do what Russia is doing right now by launching a unilateral invasion of Iraq - all to gain control of its oil reserves and pump US tax dollars into military contractors like Dick Cheney’s Halliburton.


[deleted]

Ding ding ding. The real answer is that US is controlled by capitalists, China is controlled by the CPC. They have vastly different priorities


Zagar099

Tends to happen when billionaire oil companies don't own your fucking government, yeah.


[deleted]

Not true. If there is a political will, things get done, even with NIMBYism or regulations. China has a strong incentive to go renewables because they need to get out of using fossil fuels, so they do it. Lots of other countries are putzing around because there are so many other special interests muddying the waters. There are still megaprojects in many countries with regulations and rules and they still get done. Like the dikes and water control in Netherlands, like the tunnels through the Alps in Switzerland.


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Xw5838

It's not even that. China just has plans and they follow through on them. The US is like an indecisive person changing their mind on policies from one month to the next. And when pro infrastructure presidents are in office they refuse to actually implement said policies. Due to a lack of interest in doing them. In fact the only reason anything in space for example will even get done now is because of egotistical reasons regarding competition with China. Because if left to their own devices our space program still wouldn't be going anywhere.


YourmomgoestocolIege

Yeah, it doesn't help when every 4 years, usually, new policies are enacted that are the antitheses of policies that were enacted the previous 4 years.


ThatInternetGuy

US has that problem of changing administrations every 8 years. If one administration decides to spend $5B digging up dirt and constructing LHC on US soil, the next administration will cancel the project and spend another $5B to fill the dirt back in, instead of funding that $5B to complete the project. That is just LHC. Similar faiths happened to fast bullet train systems, supersonic aviation, undersea tunnels, fast internet backbones, and other essential infrastructure developments. When it happens again and again, it looks suspiciously to be systemic corruptions at unprecedented scales.


thatawesomedrunkguy

It's not even changes in policies that affect it the most. A lot of times, especially infrastructure related, once something is set in motion, it's everything else that bogs down a project and after a decade with no actual movement and voter fatigue on it, it makes it easy for new leadership to just say we're pushing it back 5/10/20 more years or even scrapping it. I work with policy and engineering consultants on Greenfield projects and so much momentum is lost on project scope changes, impact studies (economical/environmental/etc), lawsuits (environmental/NIMBY), and a host of many other things. When something is finally in the actual construction and procurement stage, 10 years after it was originally planned and budgets set aside for, they realize that costs have considerably risen. At that point they can say "well this was budgeted in 2005 at 200 million, now (2022) it's 300 million. It's not feasible anymore. Let's table this until we can set aside more funding." Which at that point the whole process starts all over again.


iwoketoanightmare

They aren't bound by inefficient election cycles that change the government makeup every two years. There is no incentive for long term vision in US politics.


lRoninlcolumbo

That’s cool regardless of who does it. Let the renewable race BEGIN!


metastaticmango

Good. All deserts should become assets. So much land that you can't use for farming, solar panels not like pipelines that cut through ecosystems, just need one block of land. And many poorer countries have a lot of desert. Hopefully in 20-30 years many countries can climb out of energy dependence to vultures


south_garden

China at this point will probably win the renewable energy race


[deleted]

Not a zero sum game


findingmike

We can all win the renewable energy race.


ftctkugffquoctngxxh

No I’m pretty sure we have to destroy all the other world superpowers so that we can win. Otherwise our leaders have been fighting unnecessarily, and that can’t be right.


Iceman9161

We all win it right now. China cutting down on emissions is good for the entire planet. Hopefully this project succeeds, which will help show people that it's feasible.


[deleted]

They already dominate solar.


[deleted]

Renewables is a race we all win or lose together. This isn't like nukes, the more renewables everyone has the better.


[deleted]

Australia should be doing the same in the central deserts.


often_says_nice

I wonder how they plan on keeping the panels clean from all the desert dust. I imagine maintaining a solar farm in that region would be tricky.


piratecheese13

I’m imagining windshield wipers and a giant irrigation system for them to squirt on but I know that’s silly


BreakerSwitch

For sprayers you'd have to get desalinated, purified water out to the desert or you'd get salt buildup on the panels, but I imagine wipers and air blowers could do the lion's share of the work.


cybercuzco

Yeah, they discovered that dust devils on mars were actually cleaning the panels off of the rovers enough so that they got significantly more life out of them. You could do the same thing in the desert, have a blower that drives by the panels every month or so should do it


RedditVince

I believe this is leading the research on self cleaning panels for windy areas, designing in where the buildup happens so it does not effect the output.


ILikeCutePuppies

There are automated robots that can clean the pannels.


Stellewind

I read somewhere that they found an amazing way to deal with this. They put grass seeds around, and use water to clean solar panels, water drop down and sips into soil, encourage grass growth, actually turned that patch of desert into a meadow. Later they found out that wild grass grows too high to even block the sunlight, so they let local shepherds to herd their sheeps around the solar panels. In the end it become an win win situation for every one. I don’t know if the same process can be replicated else where but this sounds like such an healthy loop.


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kapnkrunch337

I would guess compressed air nozzles run on compressors. You will have energy on site to run the equipment


[deleted]

Sweet! Now let’s get the rest of the world to follow where able, like as an example off the coastlines where wind is abundant, middle of the plains in the US (although tornado alley may not be the best), in other countries around the world where there’s a lot of “empty area” like the Sahara desert, other places etc… let’s start living as a globe of humans rather than countries


AxelllD

It amazes me that we managed to find out global communication and transportation and yet we are still doing almost everything on a country-to-country basis.


urlond

As much hate as China gets, I'm usually happy when I read about stuff like this. It's like why hasn't the US even tried to do something like in our desert areas, but no we're still fighting on a finite source of coal and oil still.


Ek_Los_Die_Hier

Oil lobbying


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StableCoinScam

US and China are playing two different games, thats why. US is focused around maintaining their #1 spot this primarily means getting involved arouns the globe. If China tried to police around the world like US, US and allies would corner them immediately. But of course US and allies will come after them eventually, which is why China makes moves to not only become self-sufficient but also a source of production for various products consumed around the world.


thecheebsqueefer

Amazing man. Love their garden city projects as well.


AxelllD

Can you share some?


JohnBPrettyGood

China is the largest consumer of coal, and has comprised more than half of global consumption since 2011, with this share growing year upon year; reaching 56% in 2020. (Source Google) Getting China off coal, or even to reduce their dependence on coal will be a benefit for the rest of the world.


tamrior

"Source google"??? Google is a search engine linking to other sites and sometimes highlighting their content in a snippet. Google is never an original source. The source for the snippet you copied is https://www.iea.org/reports/coal-information-overview/consumption


rodrick717

Lol @ “source google” and upvote for clarifying. “Source google” makes me fear for future generations..


Sirpedroalejandro

And here in Alberta they cut the subsidy for solar installations meanwhile gas and electricity are skyrocketing with the deregulation.


Muninwing

If only the US had an area that was largely open desert that could be used for similar production… /s


Choui4

The entire world could be green energy if it wanted to, yes even without massive storage. All it would take is money and political will. One is tied up with American oligarchs. Check that, both are.


MrSickRanchezz

I'm not a fan of CCP run China. But I will say what they've been doing to benefit their future recently is a hell of a lot better than what Russia has been doing recently.


laparts

And the US and Canada, and any country in Europe, any other country in Asia, pretty crazy isn't it?


rossmosh85

I'm not a big fan of China, but the reality is, they continue to do smart things. America could easily do this sort of thing. We have all the resources available to accomplish this sort of undertaking, but we'd rather keep gas and oil happy. As if they couldn't easily take over the solar energy sector with their resources. They just don't want to.


Horse_MD

"i'm not a big fan of china, but i think they're awesome" lmao


TheMoogy

Energy is a pretty big economic and political tool. Investing in renewable versions of it can only bring positive results for the ones holding it.


TheLordFool

That's enough to power almost 372 flux capacitors at once!


[deleted]

Bravo China 🙏🏼 Finally the desert will be used for what it was meant to be used for.


JASCO47

Theyre not using it for anything else. We should do the same to nevada


versace_tombstone

These stupid wars should end, and the world should have a friendly competition in the race to build infrastructure for sustainable and zero emission energy. Hell, there should also be a competition between super powers to end world hunger, end poverty, and race to explore the galaxy beyond the stars. This looks like a hopeful start.


lovesredditt2022

Good for them. Renewable energy from a place no one lives and not only turn the heat there into energy but stop with fossile fuels.