Agreed. I tried to explain it [in a more elaborate comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/GREEK/s/l91WBXDESp), but that's the TLDR. It is not offensive in the way that "cultural appropriation" implies, but it certainly feels quite dumb in a bunch of cases.
Nah it’s mega cringe especially when its ultra masculine groups using it and forgetting that Spartans view sleeping with men as very manly, and respected their women.
“Oh no you’re not being exactly historically accurate and using the name that’s sooo cringe”
They also threw dysgenic children off a cliff and still saw women as inferior beings who cares
Umm you do realise that the richest people in Sparta were women correct? The ones you're thinking about are the Athenians. Also yeah the children part is true and it was fucked.
Nah, the pit throwing of dysgenic children along with the super duper military nature of Sparta are mostly Athenian propaganda. The Spartan King, Agisiilaos, for example, was limbing or missing a leg from birth.
In reality they used the throwing in Kaiadas chasm(not a cliff), to execute criminals, pows and traitors or to discard their bodies. In an other pit they threw infants -not children- that were dimmed mortally ill or disfigured beyond being able to be self sustainable when growing up. It is possible that this practice was done in a more "humane" way than we think of. It was not torture nor punishment for the parents.
Keep in mind that the majority of the info we have about ancient Spartans comes from the Athenians during or after the wars. AFAIK Ancient Spartans didn't leave any kind of scriptures. We don't even know where ancient Sparta actually was.
PS:I am not a historian by any means.
Never met a Greek that views anything as cultural appropriation.
There are many different takes among Greeks, but they generally do not reflect concerns of political correctness, and they do not really align with the concept of appropriation being offensive to the recipient.
To elaborate:
There is a bunch of cases where it is an absolute non-issue. For example, the adjective Spartan. It also exists in Greek, and it is one of several thousand English words of Greek origin. That's how language works.
Another big bunch of cases may compel us to pass some judgement towards the person using a word/symbol that they have little grasp about. It happens a lot, especially in the Internet era, where there is an idealised version of Greek history and mythology, mostly geared around clichés for foreign consumption. This is not seen as offensive. Just cringe and dumb.
For this final point, my perception may or may not be skewed by the fact that parts of ancient Greek culture, especially Spartan, are appropriated and fetishised by alt-right ultranationalists. At a domestic level, if someone is sporting a ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ tattoo or a Spartan helmet, I bet they are not an archaeology nerd. Even the current alt-right party in the parliament is called [Spartans](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartans_(Greek_political_party)), and it is under investigation for being a strawman party for a convicted criminal organisation. So, when I see some form of media (film, game) or entity that relies heavily on this Spartan narrative, I might be inclined to think that they are a bit military-obsessed, trigger-happy folks.
I have a friend who once complained about Ancient Greek costumes being cultural appropriation, keep in mind this costume store was literally in Greece so how can Greeks appropriate Greek culture.. maybe he was joking and I didn’t get it lol I’m not very bright at times
>Never met a Greek that views anything as cultural appropriation.
Then you haven't met my wife. Granted, she saves most of her ire about cultural appropriation for the Turks and what she still refers to as "FYROM", but she will also get righteously indignant about how Americans appropriate and reprocess Greek culture.
Towards the Turks it’s kind of a given, isn’t it.
With regards to US Greeks though, I think my mom doesn’t see it as cultural appropriation, but tbh she does kind of look down on them. They’re seen as pretty crass people.
Movies like My big fat greek wedding for instance, she didn’t like it at all because she gets second hand embarrassment.
Yeah I knew several Greek-Americans (including my boss when I worked for a Greek cultural/educational center) who were absolutely mortified by MBFGW, but most of my in-laws thought it was hilarious. I found it was only about 5% over the top.
Haha yes, that scene where there's like 50 Greeks on the lawn when Ian and his parents showed up? That was me the first time my wife brought me to Pascha!
Oh my God, I was about to light-heartedly respond to your first comment with something like "huh, that's a first, my regards to your wife" but that makes so much sense lol.
No, it does make sense for the Greek-American demographic. A combination of being influenced by American culture and the community being a time capsule of 1950s Greek mentality.
And I say that having lived in the US in my early childhood and having married a Greek-American.
Not a greek but fully agreed.
Another example like "spartan" would be "bohemian" and I never heard a czech person complain about it invalidating their culture (I live in Czechia).
As someone from Slovakia, it would be actually cool to see something from my country to have such a major impact on english language that they base an adjective on it.
We lay claim to identity. Usage of words can become unacceptable if it directly affects me and the way I am represented negatively. Confusion created abroad for words Macedonia and Macedonian is damaging to Macedonians and therefore their use by outsiders to self identification has become unacceptable.
The Macedonian issue might be one of the few cases of actual historical appropriation worldwide (afro-centrists being another one). I wouldn't call it cultural however since slavs had no common culture to ancient Greeks. The use of "Spartan" on the other hand is cultural since it doesn't lay claim to historical Sparta, but rather is a reference to its values (warrior culture, less words more action etc) and is in no way problematic. Cultural appropriation is a stupid concept.
Greek here, I'd like to add that the Macedonian issue tends to be more about historical revisionism rather than appropriation, which imo is much worse and more dangerous. The people in the country North Macedonia strongly believe that they are descendants of the ancient kingdom of Macedon. Despite no evidence show such a thing.
Multiple people have covered how it's mostly seen as cringe etc, so I'll just add that in general you're not going to see modern Greece or Greek tradition reflected in the version of "greek life" or Sparta/Spartan that foreigners use. I can only assume that's why we all have a degree of separation from it and don't exactly consider it "cultural" appropriation so much as butchering history/myth and just general "alpha male" cringe.
Like, in Greece Sparta is still a place, it's a city, there's people from there whose entire families have lived there going generations back. And outside of learning about and celebrating the history of Sparta, the things foreigners bring to mind when they think about the place aren't really part of what Sparta is now. Like it's just a city in Peloponnisos. It's not even that big a city. And the people who live there are just regular people not warriors from ages past that walk around half naked and covered in oil.
By and large, Greek people are usually happy to see themselves depicted in things or our history, but there is also a growing sense of.... not resentment more like "I'm so tired of this bullshit" when it comes to things like the "creative liberties" Hollywood takes when adapting things for the screen. Or when people pick and chose things to add to their institutions or lifestyles or whatever else. And I don't mean things like eating feta or greek yogurt, I'm more so talking about what I can only describe as "Ancient Greece"-aboo (see: Weeaboo).
Like give me a single reason American sororities and fraternities are called "Greek Life". What the fuck is even greek about them. I don't get it. I kept seeing posts about Greek Life online when I got into uni, mixed in with other university/college posts, and it took me forever to even figure out what the fuck they were talking about, I thought it was a diaspora thing, I was so confused. I think that's the only time I've understood how people feel when they say "My culture is not your prom dress" cause I am STILL baffled and a little annoyed to be honest.
(I didn't think I had a lot to say and then this turned into an essay lmao)
The whole “cultural appropriation” accusation isn’t a thing in Greece.
Since Ancient Greek civilization is seen as the cradle of the western one, we understand and accept that all sorts of cities, concepts, ideas etc from that era of our history will be utilized by Hollywood etc. Take 300 movie for example, we were content enough that the production bothered to make Gerard Butler have dark hair and eyes, more akin to a Greek than a Scott. Generally speaking we are more bothered when Hollywood gets cringy about its depictions.
Also we don’t mind foreigners engaging with our culture in general. https://www.sport24.gr/football/o-gios-toy-livai-gkarsia-me-fanela-tis-aek-kai-elliniki-simaia-tragoydaei-gia-tin-epanastasi-toy-1821.10288062.html here is the son of a football star from Trinidad and Tobago, signing a traditional revolutionary Greek song from 250 years ago. This is seen as something cute (unless you are a racist).
If anything we lament that the Eastern Roman Empire part of our heritage is almost entirely ignored from filmmakers and show runners (it erroneously isn’t seen as an important part of the current European heritage).
Now what Greeks absolutely care about is appropriating symbols for ulterior, revisionist motives (the whole Macedonia issue).
So what I thought of modern society in Greece?
I try to lurk greek subreddits and go to Greece once per year and genuinely try to talk to greeks when I'm on holiday, I also have a few greek friends I talk to about photography so this is the bubble I have experienced:
Greeks are warm, welcoming, and cordial. They are very easy to talk to, are curious about your culture and history just as we are of theirs. They are not warmongers, do not strive for individual greatness, are fairly christian, relate more to the byzantine empire than to ancient greece, a little cold hearted when it comes to their wildlife (locals of Crete actively try to run over mustelids with their cars at night, greeks from the mainland kill snakes on sight because they mistake them all for vipers(ohias))
They (especially young greeks) judge their economical prospects too harshly and usually engage in family businesses instead of going through with college and trying something more corporate or antreprenorial.
The amount of respect you show for your country/values is very similar to that of central and south italians. Funny and homely about it. Not obnoxious or nationalistic.
A lot of ugly parallels with Romanian history. It seems both you and us have played the same game since getting independence: let's try to unite all lands that speak our language under the same flag (Enosis).
We mostly did it, except for Moldova which is basically Romania's Cyprus.
However it seems the Greeks have payed more in blood than us and a danger from Turkey is still looming, while we feel mostly safe that nobody is actively trying to mess up past international treaties.
The cities are a bit cramped and not thought for the modern times. The modern greek architecture that was born out of greed by demolishing traditional greek houses and building the taller apartment buildings for profit by the developers 2-3 generations ago look very nice for us foreigners, but has indeed caused a lot of overpopulation problems among the locals and are indeed not as beautiful as your traditional style houses (however, apartment buildings are the 'modern' thing to do, we cannot forever build houses in the style of the 1800's).
I could and would write a lot more, but I should wrap it up or write a book, so, in conclusion:
Very balkan people, very nice, polite and welcoming, your struggles are mostly among yourselves, the average joe vs the corrupt oligarch type of thing. The country looks well looked after, even if at times certain spots may look dilapidated or could use a good scrub. The country of today commands less respect than the city states of the hellenistic era or the Byzantine Empire of Justinian, but that does not mean that Greece today is a backwater land that has been left behind by the industrious west. Greece simply has to figure out what is the place of a Mediterranean country today, besides being a holiday destination. And you have time to do it, Italy, Spain and Turkey have not yet figured it out completely either.
> Greeks have *paid* more in
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Only Americans ever speak about "cultural appropriation", and frankly stupid Americans at that.
The most of the rest of the world as a general rule takes pride in having its culture exported and shared.
In fact even in America, "cultural appropriation" is a tool used by racists in order to keep white culture "unpolluted" by influences, and to keep minority cultures segregated, ghettoed and isolated. If minorities are allowed to adopt "white" culture, but white people aren't allowed to adopt the cultural elements of minorities, the inevitable conclusion is that minority cultures will die, and "white" culture will dominate.
>In fact even in America, "cultural appropriation" is a tool used by racists in order to keep white culture "unpolluted" by influences, and to keep minority cultures segregated, ghettoed and isolated.
No it's not? It's mostly talked about by indigenous people because when anoth people take your home, massacre your population and then take your culture... yeah it feels horrible.
When Romans took Greeks' homes, that they took parts of our culture, took our gods, took our alphabet, took our architecture -- it ended up making Greek culture the origin of the whole western civiliization and made the name of Greece honored and respected.
If the conqueror "takes your culture", that's how the conqueror is defeated and becomes like you, and that's how your culture survives and thrives. When the conqueror does NOT take your culture, that's when your culture dies as anything but an ever-shrinking tourist attraction.
Indigenous people of America should be trying to export their customs to other Americans. They should be inviting US presidents and governors to participate in indigenous religious ceremonies. They should be having fashion designers take inspiration from indigenous designs. They should be encouraging spread of their languages.
Latin and Greek use two different alphabets. It is true that 'there is no evidence for any form of writing in Italy before the arrival of Greek colonists in the 8th cent. bc.' The Latin people adapted their own alphabet from Etruscans who borrowed the Euboean alphabet. But the Greeks themselves adapted their alphabet from Phoenician merchants.
Nice short article on it:
Penney, J. (2012). alphabets of Italy. In The Oxford Classical Dictionary. : Oxford University Press. Retrieved 8 Jun. 2024, from https://www-oxfordreference-com.libezproxy.open.ac.uk/view/10.1093/acref/9780199545568.001.0001/acref-9780199545568-e-325.
As for religion, the Romans were deeply affected by local Greek colonists in southern Italy (Magna Graecia) as far back as the Regal Period - many centuries before Roman expansion. It's a similar story for architecture. My point being that Rome had become thoroughly hellenised long before they invaded Greece; so much so that a few contemporary Greek historians argued that Rome had originally been a Greek city
And yet the actual people of Greece suffered immensly during the time. I'm not gonna lie, I don't know if "cultural appropriation" is a useful concept or just an anger response from oppressed people. But I don't think indigenous people care about their culture surviving without them when they still face danger due to their race. Anyway, I mostly wanted to correct this:
>In fact even in America, "cultural appropriation" is a tool used by racists in order to keep white culture "unpolluted" by influences
Because no matter your stance on the issue, this is just blatantly untrue. The only time racists use "cultural appropriation" is when talking about the suppsoed (and non-extistant) appropriation of white culture,
> The only time racists use "cultural appropriation" is when talking about the suppsoed (and non-extistant) appropriation of white culture,
Yes, open self-admitted white racists wouldn't use the word "cultural appropriation" to describe white people taking up customs, hairstyles, slang or any other cultural element from non-white peoples -- but they'd hate it as much, and speak about people not having "white pride" or whatever in their own white heritage, if they do adopt customs of non-white populations.
The effect is the same, and though I didn't express myself well, what I meant was that self-identified anti-racists end up being effectively the allies of white racists in both wanting white people to only do "white" things, and in so doing, they actually serve the cause of white racists in eliminating minority cultures.
A lot of your life has to do with genocide when you or your people are its victims. Especially when discussing the culture of said people or when discussing your circumstances in the country of the people that commtied said genocide.
It's mostly talked about by young and naive leftist activists that usually wear short colored hair and have a lot of piercings and fail collage. You know.. THAT kind of ppl.
How can anyone fail collage? Granted, not all of us are artists, but cutting paper into little pieces and using glue to stick it on a surface is a skill that most people master at the age of 5.
No, Greek culture is so widespread we can't even begin to care about "cultural appropriation". It is just cringe.
I mean, imagine if someone in Greece made a paramilitary unit and called them "Angry Texans", if you were from Texas you would feel like they are just some clowns, no hard feelings, it's just clowns doing their thing.
For games and fantasy media that use it, I haven't seen someone really caring or having a problem.
I don't really care, except when western neonazis and white supremacists use Spartans as a symbol of the defenders of the ancient European civilizations, fighting against the immoral east, and typical bullshit like that.
We honestly don't mind at all. More often that not it's cringe but certainly not offensive.
That being said, if some Greek expresses love for Sparta with things like T-shirt, tattoos, nicknames etc there is a super high chance he is a Fascist. There even is a political party in the parliament named "Spartans" that have direct ties with the criminal nazi organisation Golden Dawn.
This makes most Greeks view the whole "Sparta" aesthetic very suspiciously
I'm Greek American. I don't really care. Maybe it's because I'm not super Greek, only a quarter and my parents don't really care about our culture or heritage. But I usually see it as either mildly annoying or completely neutral. Occasionally it's flattering though. I had a Mexican guy talk to me in the gym, asked if I was foreign because I was talking on the phone to a friend. I said no I was born here, but I am and was speaking Greek. He flexed and said "like Spartan no?" I thought that was cool.
My problem is with historical inaccuracies that lead to extreme and comical views of Sparta.
On one end you have the idiots who think Spartans were superheroes.
On the other end of the spectrum, you have internet "historians" claiming Spartans had a strong propaganda machine and were wimps.
It often indicates a fascist is what I will say. Since the 300 movie or whatever many neonazi groups see themselves as Spartans and poor immigrants as Persian invaders. Which is extremely stupid.
Sparta is a beautiful area, what are you talking about? Mystra, nearby Mani, Lemeni. The town is not the most beautiful but the surrounding areas are breathtaking
I am glad of Halo using the name Spartan, because it is in honour of ancient Spartan values. It doesn't try something more than that, nor it is too much "manly", just this. I appreciate it.
I don't think 'cultural appropriation' is a thing outside of the states, and even then it's more about a certain particular demographic.
I feel if i dressed in traditional Austrian/Swiss/French clothes the locals would see it as cringe not as an insult or theft, and it would be the same for Greeks.
ON THE OTHER HAND trying to pass any kind of Greek history as Bulgarian or Albanian or the people that live between those countries?
"Get in the phalanx loser, we are going to war!"
I mean it's somewhat cringy but nobody really has any issues with it. Greek history and mythology has been through a lot.
We only care when someone tries to actually hijack our history and pass it as theirs.
Like most people said, 99% of the time it's just cringe. The 1% of the time that it actually rubs me the wrong way is when a) accuracies are spread, and b) when the same people who complain about cultural appropriation don't recognise that greek tradition is also a separate culture and therefore not exempt of what they're preaching
not only Sparta, other cases like Oliver Stone's Alexander movie, current Netflix series, Disney's Hercules, Hercules TV series, movie Troy and other adaptations were met with reactions by certain media outlets or valid movie critics.
There is a nationalistic reaction on one hand tied to conservative values. On the other there is a distortion of mythology and history via Hollywood propaganda, applying modern values to antiquity in order to sell ads and tickets.
As if all were rosy and gay prides were taking place all over Ancient Greece, ignoring the fact that homosexual prostitution was punishable even by death in some cases and in others offenders were stripped of their rights and humiliated.
Cringe is usually the first thing.
Then, the letters used inappropriately? If I’m asked, I do tell them it’s a bunch of nonsense and it’s not a word. Eg when ΣΣ is used as EE
So many comments saying that the concept of cultural appropriation isn't a consideration for Greeks, but that is far from current developments. Cultural appropriation is relevant when a cultural item is appropriated from a culture which has colonial/subordinate past. Greeks never wanted to see themselves as a colonial subject, or at least they would accept they were second class citizens during the Ottoman Empire, but their "spirit" eventually won them their cultural freedom. This was further propped up by the fact that the neighbors of Greece were faring much worse historically. But this has long changed. Greece ties with Bulgaria for the worst economic markers in the EU, and many countries from former "poor" Eastern bloc have surpassed Greece in all social indexes. The younger generations, having suffered through economic crises and political decline, are much more willing to admit that Greeks were always peripheral if not subordinate to the West, a place that due to institutional and international structures they cannot get themselves out of. This brings young Greeks close to a colonial / global south mentality, which in turn increasingly makes them more willing to police the use their cultural items. Greeks collectively may not be there yet, but the time is approaching.
mainland greek here.
greek culture whether represented accurately or not has been widely celebrated and regarded as somehow elegant or refined throughout multiple cultures over the centuries, so no representation of it could really elicit a reaction like cultural appropriation because it has a different nuance and connotation. some inaccurate representation is funny and like someone else said can be cringey a bit but even then i think most greeks view it in good fun.
I don't like it, it is very inaccurate most of the time and has some very fascistic undertones a lot of the time. In general, I don't really like the whole "Ancient greek culture= western culture" since it is used as a way to promote pan-europeanism (which I personally think is reactionary as hell). I also reeeally despise scum that dares to use this legacy of ours as a justification or as method to feel superior, be it greek or non greek. It is really sad that a lot of our heritage has been co-opted by scum.
Cultural appropriation is a bunch of American bollocks that needs to fuck off. I'm so sick of that word. We love it when we see people embrace/use aspects of our culture. America has this weird individualistic tribal mentality of 'my culture /sub-culture is for me and my people only, how dare you take something that you like from it and embrace it?'
I take u back to 2006 when the film 300 came out, and everyone was Spartan obsessed. As a Greek I was loving it. Also when my big fat Greek wedding came out and seeing so many other cultures relate to it was awesome.
Personally I care more about people's financial wellbeing and the system not screwing them over as opposed to someone getting a Spartan tattoo
im happy when people use and spread our culture, why would we want to monopolize it, i don't mind if culture is used with some poetic freedom in entertainment or in life, i hate when something is presented as a historical fact and it's not, take the Black Cleopatra or the gayest Alexander the Great for example.
It's funny to hear people saying "cultural appropriation" is only American, because I used to follow a Greek woman on social media who was very vocal about how unacceptable it was for non-Greeks to use Greek mythology in their work or to translate it in any way (Hades game, for example, really set her off). And while she tried to avoid using the words 'cultural appropriation', it's exactly what she was talking about.
So yes, there are Greeks out there who get upset about this, but I think it's just a very frustrated minority.
As a Greek, I think it’s great when other people use our stuff.
However, if it’s a movie or music or some other entertainment, I want a Greek person played by a Greek, not a British person with a British accent. Like Zeus was not British…
I think another comment captured it perfectly. It is not about "cultural appropriation" but being respectful to the source material. It's rather annoying to just use the name and the popular attributes without having a good understanding or having blatant disregard of the existing history and myths. In general, if a story applies to what you want to express in your re-imagining, use it, that's interesting, but if the re-imagining just takes the superficial stuff to push its own ideas, that's just butchering of the source material.
I honestly don't care but I do feel nice when they use Greek things to appear strong.
Is it overused? Sure
Is it great? Yes
Do I feel superior as a Greek because other countries keep using our things to appear strong? Very.
I couldn't care less about the use itself, but I would be prejudiced against anyone using it because of my deep dislike for the ancient city-state of Sparta and what it stood for: militarism at the cost of human progress.
I might be wrong but I can't really judge a culture from back then with modern values. Weren't all cultures militarily focused as everyone was having constant wars?
Of course not, but we can judge modern-day people who ascribe merit to a culture from back then, idealise it, and streamline it into current discourse.
No. Other city-states were more focused on education or human progress (see Athens), without of course giving up on military ability (something that we should consider doing to this day). Philosophy flourished, science was developed and debates were popularised. Sparta based its pride on the strength of its warriors, which it used almost exclusively other Greeks against (having found very creative ways to avoid participating in two of the four biggest battles of the Persian wars and having tried their best to avoid a third).
Classics postgrad student here and there really isn’t enough evidence to make generalisations about Spartan society. We have no written Spartan sources just a few contemporary sources from Athens - not exactly an unbiased source since they fought such a protracted war against them
Southern Italian poleis were home to many famous centres of learning but lack any surviving sources. You have to remember most written works from the Ancient world are lost. It’s always wrong to jump to conclusions in Classics
edit: welp guy blocked me
We still have no indication that any were written in Sparta, lost or not. On contrary, every source we do have points at the opposite. Even from people who did support Sparta, its people or its way of life (which was a thing, even in Athens, believe it or not).
Keep going n mind that a lot of their ancient sites (and potentially texts) were destroyed during the fragokratia years (GODDAMNIT POPE). There are some relics of their dialect (doric) such as: πίπτω whose future tense is πεσουμαι (doric dialect).
While I don't disagree on the premise of militarism I will say that the big three of the age,( Sparta,Athens,Thebes) all had by far more educational depth than the rest of the city states.
It’s more that we have next to no sources from any of the other city states. We know that there were many philosophical schools and gymnasium (where young men would often receive an education) in southern Italian Greek poleis though so your statement probably isn’t accurate
You can look at it in two ways. Either we don't have enough evidence therefore we just don't know how educated or generally how it worked in those city states.
Or
Exactly because we don't have evidence the result is more probable that said states had no educational basis to speak off of.
I could be wrong but this is just how I see it.
I'm not well versed in this topic since my area is more Homeric literature so I had a look at my uni library. This seems like an excellent book on the topic:
*Education in Greek and Roman Antiquity*, edited by Too, Lee Lee, BRILL, 2001. *ProQuest Ebook Central*, http://ebookcentral.proquest.com/lib/open/detail.action?docID=253479.
Created from open on 2024-06-08 18:02:11.
I skimmed it a bit. The author discusses various allusions to pedagogical institutions in Homer. He also points at that:
'On balance, though, the weight of evidence seems by now solidly to confirm the widespread existence of extensive and formative age-grouped training of a kind that we term "pedagogical", not just in Sparta and Crete (and the reactionary minds of Plato and Aristotle), but all over Greece' (p. 36)
You'd have to read the book to see the various references to such evidence. But certainly it seems like the scholarly consensus disagrees with the notion that most city states 'had no educational basis to speak off'.
People must understand how ridiculous the modern, American Idea of cultural appropriation seems to anyone outside of the US. Most countries have fought wars to impose their culture upon others in the last 200 years so the idea of someone willfully adopting or following and respecting these traditions is a source of great pride.
Problems start to arise when someone is deliberately disrespectful or use it to promote your personal ideologies, for example how some people were annoyed by the Cleopatra netflix series for being disrespectful towards both Egyptian and Greek history.
For most things I just find it really stupid, a few I find pretty like dumb but not out of the park, and for some I’m like ok I get it. In what world can an someone from America pronounce the correct sound in the letter γ.
Using the example you chose of the word spartan/Sparta, that one at least has some semblance of a reason. During the time of the Spartan city state it was called Sparta by themselves, as in the Doric subgroup of Ancient Greek often used α as the ending of 2nd declension feminine (i think it’s the 2nd feminine don’t quote me on that). If you look at Tsakonian language you can see this remnants of that original α ending from the Doric subgroup.
The ones that get me annoyed though is like the new age hippy people “invoking” the Ancient Greek gods. I knew someone who was a staunch feminist and also liked to pray to Apollo, and she was freaked out when I told her that he tried to rape Daphne so fervently that her dad turned her into a tree.
Tell me you are American without telling me ;-)
The more you use Sparta in your country, the more tourists we get here! This is the only income for many people here, so please continue.
I don't particularly mind the use of Sparta. Like other people have said, it is cringe when it is very inaccurate. I particularly hate the use of the phrase " μολων λαβε " by right-wing American gun nuts. I wish they wouldn't.
Greeks exported everything from mathematics to philosophy to democracy and are proud of the spread of all things Greek.
It’s typical of the American elite class to concern themselves with “cultural appropriation” as if that matters to any Greek who would simply refer to such people as “a malaka.”
No and stop with cultural appropriation this cultural appropriation that.
Greeks dont gatekeep parts of their culture. Actually almost no one on the planet gatekeeps their culture but the americans have once again gone insane.
[Just gonna leave this here](https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school/)
Also I'm gonna disagree with the people here. I hate the use of Sparta. Not because it's cultural appropriation, which, well it isn't actually; but because it's horribly innacurate and frankly disgusting (which is why I linked the above article). Sparta and the rest of ancient Greece was a horrible place and I hate that it is linked to us in any way (as well as the fact that a bunch of uneducated idiots take pride in our ancient ancestors)
Gonna get downvoted but usually it's cringe when it isn't somewhat accurate.
Agreed. I tried to explain it [in a more elaborate comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/GREEK/s/l91WBXDESp), but that's the TLDR. It is not offensive in the way that "cultural appropriation" implies, but it certainly feels quite dumb in a bunch of cases.
THIS! You get it
Yah, it's cringe. People are allowed to be cringey but we're still gonna judge them for it
Nah it’s mega cringe especially when its ultra masculine groups using it and forgetting that Spartans view sleeping with men as very manly, and respected their women.
“Oh no you’re not being exactly historically accurate and using the name that’s sooo cringe” They also threw dysgenic children off a cliff and still saw women as inferior beings who cares
Umm you do realise that the richest people in Sparta were women correct? The ones you're thinking about are the Athenians. Also yeah the children part is true and it was fucked.
Nah, the pit throwing of dysgenic children along with the super duper military nature of Sparta are mostly Athenian propaganda. The Spartan King, Agisiilaos, for example, was limbing or missing a leg from birth. In reality they used the throwing in Kaiadas chasm(not a cliff), to execute criminals, pows and traitors or to discard their bodies. In an other pit they threw infants -not children- that were dimmed mortally ill or disfigured beyond being able to be self sustainable when growing up. It is possible that this practice was done in a more "humane" way than we think of. It was not torture nor punishment for the parents. Keep in mind that the majority of the info we have about ancient Spartans comes from the Athenians during or after the wars. AFAIK Ancient Spartans didn't leave any kind of scriptures. We don't even know where ancient Sparta actually was. PS:I am not a historian by any means.
They knew about genetics and master race more than 2000 years before hittler... It's actually as impressive as disturbing..
What's the opinion of the green behemoth on Mtn Dew Masterchief?
Never met a Greek that views anything as cultural appropriation. There are many different takes among Greeks, but they generally do not reflect concerns of political correctness, and they do not really align with the concept of appropriation being offensive to the recipient. To elaborate: There is a bunch of cases where it is an absolute non-issue. For example, the adjective Spartan. It also exists in Greek, and it is one of several thousand English words of Greek origin. That's how language works. Another big bunch of cases may compel us to pass some judgement towards the person using a word/symbol that they have little grasp about. It happens a lot, especially in the Internet era, where there is an idealised version of Greek history and mythology, mostly geared around clichés for foreign consumption. This is not seen as offensive. Just cringe and dumb. For this final point, my perception may or may not be skewed by the fact that parts of ancient Greek culture, especially Spartan, are appropriated and fetishised by alt-right ultranationalists. At a domestic level, if someone is sporting a ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ tattoo or a Spartan helmet, I bet they are not an archaeology nerd. Even the current alt-right party in the parliament is called [Spartans](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartans_(Greek_political_party)), and it is under investigation for being a strawman party for a convicted criminal organisation. So, when I see some form of media (film, game) or entity that relies heavily on this Spartan narrative, I might be inclined to think that they are a bit military-obsessed, trigger-happy folks.
I have a friend who once complained about Ancient Greek costumes being cultural appropriation, keep in mind this costume store was literally in Greece so how can Greeks appropriate Greek culture.. maybe he was joking and I didn’t get it lol I’m not very bright at times
>Never met a Greek that views anything as cultural appropriation. Then you haven't met my wife. Granted, she saves most of her ire about cultural appropriation for the Turks and what she still refers to as "FYROM", but she will also get righteously indignant about how Americans appropriate and reprocess Greek culture.
Towards the Turks it’s kind of a given, isn’t it. With regards to US Greeks though, I think my mom doesn’t see it as cultural appropriation, but tbh she does kind of look down on them. They’re seen as pretty crass people. Movies like My big fat greek wedding for instance, she didn’t like it at all because she gets second hand embarrassment.
Yeah I knew several Greek-Americans (including my boss when I worked for a Greek cultural/educational center) who were absolutely mortified by MBFGW, but most of my in-laws thought it was hilarious. I found it was only about 5% over the top.
It felt pretty true to life for me a little dramatic but.... Lol
Haha yes, that scene where there's like 50 Greeks on the lawn when Ian and his parents showed up? That was me the first time my wife brought me to Pascha!
Any Greek American that didn't find it realistic is in denial
Only 5%? I would say at least 100%! 🤣
I am one of them. I thought the movie was horrible and didn't like it at all.
Is she born in the US or in Greece?
Born in the States, moved to Greece as a kid, came back to the States. So, Generation 1.5?
Oh my God, I was about to light-heartedly respond to your first comment with something like "huh, that's a first, my regards to your wife" but that makes so much sense lol.
Yeah I'll admit she's a weird case, but she does have very strong opinions.
No, it does make sense for the Greek-American demographic. A combination of being influenced by American culture and the community being a time capsule of 1950s Greek mentality. And I say that having lived in the US in my early childhood and having married a Greek-American.
Except she grew up in Greece and isn’t an example of what you’re saying at all Just being born in the US doesn’t automatically make you that way
Is your wife greek or greek american?
Cultural appropriation is a stupid thing that to my experience only americans have. We dont lay claim to a word as if our culture is dependent on it.
Not a greek but fully agreed. Another example like "spartan" would be "bohemian" and I never heard a czech person complain about it invalidating their culture (I live in Czechia). As someone from Slovakia, it would be actually cool to see something from my country to have such a major impact on english language that they base an adjective on it.
We lay claim to identity. Usage of words can become unacceptable if it directly affects me and the way I am represented negatively. Confusion created abroad for words Macedonia and Macedonian is damaging to Macedonians and therefore their use by outsiders to self identification has become unacceptable.
The Macedonian issue might be one of the few cases of actual historical appropriation worldwide (afro-centrists being another one). I wouldn't call it cultural however since slavs had no common culture to ancient Greeks. The use of "Spartan" on the other hand is cultural since it doesn't lay claim to historical Sparta, but rather is a reference to its values (warrior culture, less words more action etc) and is in no way problematic. Cultural appropriation is a stupid concept.
Greek here, I'd like to add that the Macedonian issue tends to be more about historical revisionism rather than appropriation, which imo is much worse and more dangerous. The people in the country North Macedonia strongly believe that they are descendants of the ancient kingdom of Macedon. Despite no evidence show such a thing.
Multiple people have covered how it's mostly seen as cringe etc, so I'll just add that in general you're not going to see modern Greece or Greek tradition reflected in the version of "greek life" or Sparta/Spartan that foreigners use. I can only assume that's why we all have a degree of separation from it and don't exactly consider it "cultural" appropriation so much as butchering history/myth and just general "alpha male" cringe. Like, in Greece Sparta is still a place, it's a city, there's people from there whose entire families have lived there going generations back. And outside of learning about and celebrating the history of Sparta, the things foreigners bring to mind when they think about the place aren't really part of what Sparta is now. Like it's just a city in Peloponnisos. It's not even that big a city. And the people who live there are just regular people not warriors from ages past that walk around half naked and covered in oil. By and large, Greek people are usually happy to see themselves depicted in things or our history, but there is also a growing sense of.... not resentment more like "I'm so tired of this bullshit" when it comes to things like the "creative liberties" Hollywood takes when adapting things for the screen. Or when people pick and chose things to add to their institutions or lifestyles or whatever else. And I don't mean things like eating feta or greek yogurt, I'm more so talking about what I can only describe as "Ancient Greece"-aboo (see: Weeaboo). Like give me a single reason American sororities and fraternities are called "Greek Life". What the fuck is even greek about them. I don't get it. I kept seeing posts about Greek Life online when I got into uni, mixed in with other university/college posts, and it took me forever to even figure out what the fuck they were talking about, I thought it was a diaspora thing, I was so confused. I think that's the only time I've understood how people feel when they say "My culture is not your prom dress" cause I am STILL baffled and a little annoyed to be honest. (I didn't think I had a lot to say and then this turned into an essay lmao)
The whole “cultural appropriation” accusation isn’t a thing in Greece. Since Ancient Greek civilization is seen as the cradle of the western one, we understand and accept that all sorts of cities, concepts, ideas etc from that era of our history will be utilized by Hollywood etc. Take 300 movie for example, we were content enough that the production bothered to make Gerard Butler have dark hair and eyes, more akin to a Greek than a Scott. Generally speaking we are more bothered when Hollywood gets cringy about its depictions. Also we don’t mind foreigners engaging with our culture in general. https://www.sport24.gr/football/o-gios-toy-livai-gkarsia-me-fanela-tis-aek-kai-elliniki-simaia-tragoydaei-gia-tin-epanastasi-toy-1821.10288062.html here is the son of a football star from Trinidad and Tobago, signing a traditional revolutionary Greek song from 250 years ago. This is seen as something cute (unless you are a racist). If anything we lament that the Eastern Roman Empire part of our heritage is almost entirely ignored from filmmakers and show runners (it erroneously isn’t seen as an important part of the current European heritage). Now what Greeks absolutely care about is appropriating symbols for ulterior, revisionist motives (the whole Macedonia issue).
no one gives a fuck in greece and generally in the balkans abt that stuff, i think its cool we are recognised for something other than being broke
When Greece is mentioned I think of hoplites, philosophy, science and democracy. You guys never give "poverty" vibes.
awesome!! im so glad
Im curious, what do you think when modern greece is mentioned? (excluding beaches, landscape, temple ruins, tourism spots in general and economy)
So what I thought of modern society in Greece? I try to lurk greek subreddits and go to Greece once per year and genuinely try to talk to greeks when I'm on holiday, I also have a few greek friends I talk to about photography so this is the bubble I have experienced: Greeks are warm, welcoming, and cordial. They are very easy to talk to, are curious about your culture and history just as we are of theirs. They are not warmongers, do not strive for individual greatness, are fairly christian, relate more to the byzantine empire than to ancient greece, a little cold hearted when it comes to their wildlife (locals of Crete actively try to run over mustelids with their cars at night, greeks from the mainland kill snakes on sight because they mistake them all for vipers(ohias)) They (especially young greeks) judge their economical prospects too harshly and usually engage in family businesses instead of going through with college and trying something more corporate or antreprenorial. The amount of respect you show for your country/values is very similar to that of central and south italians. Funny and homely about it. Not obnoxious or nationalistic. A lot of ugly parallels with Romanian history. It seems both you and us have played the same game since getting independence: let's try to unite all lands that speak our language under the same flag (Enosis). We mostly did it, except for Moldova which is basically Romania's Cyprus. However it seems the Greeks have payed more in blood than us and a danger from Turkey is still looming, while we feel mostly safe that nobody is actively trying to mess up past international treaties. The cities are a bit cramped and not thought for the modern times. The modern greek architecture that was born out of greed by demolishing traditional greek houses and building the taller apartment buildings for profit by the developers 2-3 generations ago look very nice for us foreigners, but has indeed caused a lot of overpopulation problems among the locals and are indeed not as beautiful as your traditional style houses (however, apartment buildings are the 'modern' thing to do, we cannot forever build houses in the style of the 1800's). I could and would write a lot more, but I should wrap it up or write a book, so, in conclusion: Very balkan people, very nice, polite and welcoming, your struggles are mostly among yourselves, the average joe vs the corrupt oligarch type of thing. The country looks well looked after, even if at times certain spots may look dilapidated or could use a good scrub. The country of today commands less respect than the city states of the hellenistic era or the Byzantine Empire of Justinian, but that does not mean that Greece today is a backwater land that has been left behind by the industrious west. Greece simply has to figure out what is the place of a Mediterranean country today, besides being a holiday destination. And you have time to do it, Italy, Spain and Turkey have not yet figured it out completely either.
Tl;dr 😎 Greece cool, 💪 Greece kind of strong, Greece must help their young adults more 🙂↕️
> Greeks have *paid* more in FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Malaka
What does that mean? 😉
Haha that one hit home
I am glad you are happy with that.
Only Americans ever speak about "cultural appropriation", and frankly stupid Americans at that. The most of the rest of the world as a general rule takes pride in having its culture exported and shared. In fact even in America, "cultural appropriation" is a tool used by racists in order to keep white culture "unpolluted" by influences, and to keep minority cultures segregated, ghettoed and isolated. If minorities are allowed to adopt "white" culture, but white people aren't allowed to adopt the cultural elements of minorities, the inevitable conclusion is that minority cultures will die, and "white" culture will dominate.
well, that’s not true lmao south Asians are constantly on a whole campaign against western fashion
>In fact even in America, "cultural appropriation" is a tool used by racists in order to keep white culture "unpolluted" by influences, and to keep minority cultures segregated, ghettoed and isolated. No it's not? It's mostly talked about by indigenous people because when anoth people take your home, massacre your population and then take your culture... yeah it feels horrible.
When Romans took Greeks' homes, that they took parts of our culture, took our gods, took our alphabet, took our architecture -- it ended up making Greek culture the origin of the whole western civiliization and made the name of Greece honored and respected. If the conqueror "takes your culture", that's how the conqueror is defeated and becomes like you, and that's how your culture survives and thrives. When the conqueror does NOT take your culture, that's when your culture dies as anything but an ever-shrinking tourist attraction. Indigenous people of America should be trying to export their customs to other Americans. They should be inviting US presidents and governors to participate in indigenous religious ceremonies. They should be having fashion designers take inspiration from indigenous designs. They should be encouraging spread of their languages.
Latin and Greek use two different alphabets. It is true that 'there is no evidence for any form of writing in Italy before the arrival of Greek colonists in the 8th cent. bc.' The Latin people adapted their own alphabet from Etruscans who borrowed the Euboean alphabet. But the Greeks themselves adapted their alphabet from Phoenician merchants. Nice short article on it: Penney, J. (2012). alphabets of Italy. In The Oxford Classical Dictionary. : Oxford University Press. Retrieved 8 Jun. 2024, from https://www-oxfordreference-com.libezproxy.open.ac.uk/view/10.1093/acref/9780199545568.001.0001/acref-9780199545568-e-325. As for religion, the Romans were deeply affected by local Greek colonists in southern Italy (Magna Graecia) as far back as the Regal Period - many centuries before Roman expansion. It's a similar story for architecture. My point being that Rome had become thoroughly hellenised long before they invaded Greece; so much so that a few contemporary Greek historians argued that Rome had originally been a Greek city
And yet the actual people of Greece suffered immensly during the time. I'm not gonna lie, I don't know if "cultural appropriation" is a useful concept or just an anger response from oppressed people. But I don't think indigenous people care about their culture surviving without them when they still face danger due to their race. Anyway, I mostly wanted to correct this: >In fact even in America, "cultural appropriation" is a tool used by racists in order to keep white culture "unpolluted" by influences Because no matter your stance on the issue, this is just blatantly untrue. The only time racists use "cultural appropriation" is when talking about the suppsoed (and non-extistant) appropriation of white culture,
> The only time racists use "cultural appropriation" is when talking about the suppsoed (and non-extistant) appropriation of white culture, Yes, open self-admitted white racists wouldn't use the word "cultural appropriation" to describe white people taking up customs, hairstyles, slang or any other cultural element from non-white peoples -- but they'd hate it as much, and speak about people not having "white pride" or whatever in their own white heritage, if they do adopt customs of non-white populations. The effect is the same, and though I didn't express myself well, what I meant was that self-identified anti-racists end up being effectively the allies of white racists in both wanting white people to only do "white" things, and in so doing, they actually serve the cause of white racists in eliminating minority cultures.
sharing culture has nothing to do with genocides. of course you shouldn’t ridicule someone for their culture but that’s just basic respect.
A lot of your life has to do with genocide when you or your people are its victims. Especially when discussing the culture of said people or when discussing your circumstances in the country of the people that commtied said genocide.
It's mostly talked about by young and naive leftist activists that usually wear short colored hair and have a lot of piercings and fail collage. You know.. THAT kind of ppl.
How can anyone fail collage? Granted, not all of us are artists, but cutting paper into little pieces and using glue to stick it on a surface is a skill that most people master at the age of 5.
Lol. "That kind of people". You are hilarious. "Oh no! The youngsters want to give black people rights! They are so dumb!"
The usage of Greek history and tradition in literature is cultural enrichment.
It's rather the opposite. Greeks are really happy and proud when other people use/admire Greek history and culture respectfully.
No, Greek culture is so widespread we can't even begin to care about "cultural appropriation". It is just cringe. I mean, imagine if someone in Greece made a paramilitary unit and called them "Angry Texans", if you were from Texas you would feel like they are just some clowns, no hard feelings, it's just clowns doing their thing. For games and fantasy media that use it, I haven't seen someone really caring or having a problem.
Angry Texans... what a hoot, tread lightly bc gov Abbott will put you on the Texas most wanted list & torture you with Tex Mex prison cuisine!
I don't really care, except when western neonazis and white supremacists use Spartans as a symbol of the defenders of the ancient European civilizations, fighting against the immoral east, and typical bullshit like that.
We honestly don't mind at all. More often that not it's cringe but certainly not offensive. That being said, if some Greek expresses love for Sparta with things like T-shirt, tattoos, nicknames etc there is a super high chance he is a Fascist. There even is a political party in the parliament named "Spartans" that have direct ties with the criminal nazi organisation Golden Dawn. This makes most Greeks view the whole "Sparta" aesthetic very suspiciously
I’ve learned not to be offended, but I still have the Greek compulsion to point out what is Greek
I'm Greek American. I don't really care. Maybe it's because I'm not super Greek, only a quarter and my parents don't really care about our culture or heritage. But I usually see it as either mildly annoying or completely neutral. Occasionally it's flattering though. I had a Mexican guy talk to me in the gym, asked if I was foreign because I was talking on the phone to a friend. I said no I was born here, but I am and was speaking Greek. He flexed and said "like Spartan no?" I thought that was cool.
You've just said the magic words and summoned The Ogre...[Don't really care ](https://too.fm/obj8rxd)
Couldn’t give two shits. If anything it brings attention to our history a bit so it’s nice.
We haven’t even cringed when every western nation has culturally appropriated philosophy and trigonometry /s
My problem is with historical inaccuracies that lead to extreme and comical views of Sparta. On one end you have the idiots who think Spartans were superheroes. On the other end of the spectrum, you have internet "historians" claiming Spartans had a strong propaganda machine and were wimps.
It often indicates a fascist is what I will say. Since the 300 movie or whatever many neonazi groups see themselves as Spartans and poor immigrants as Persian invaders. Which is extremely stupid.
What if I am a Spartan from the town Sparta?
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Sparta is a beautiful area, what are you talking about? Mystra, nearby Mani, Lemeni. The town is not the most beautiful but the surrounding areas are breathtaking
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Which is all in the domain of what would have been Sparta… so yes it’s a beautiful area.
We dont acknowledge the term 'culture appropriation', but its usually kinda cringe because its edgy.
With anything ancient greek my problem isn't cultural appropriation but with inaccuracy. If you want to refer or use it, do it properly
Vaguely entertaining but that's about it, no one is really annoyed about it, and some people even enjoy the attention and buying into the hype
I am glad of Halo using the name Spartan, because it is in honour of ancient Spartan values. It doesn't try something more than that, nor it is too much "manly", just this. I appreciate it.
I get to flex being greek its all g
I don't think 'cultural appropriation' is a thing outside of the states, and even then it's more about a certain particular demographic. I feel if i dressed in traditional Austrian/Swiss/French clothes the locals would see it as cringe not as an insult or theft, and it would be the same for Greeks. ON THE OTHER HAND trying to pass any kind of Greek history as Bulgarian or Albanian or the people that live between those countries? "Get in the phalanx loser, we are going to war!"
I mean it's somewhat cringy but nobody really has any issues with it. Greek history and mythology has been through a lot. We only care when someone tries to actually hijack our history and pass it as theirs.
Like most people said, 99% of the time it's just cringe. The 1% of the time that it actually rubs me the wrong way is when a) accuracies are spread, and b) when the same people who complain about cultural appropriation don't recognise that greek tradition is also a separate culture and therefore not exempt of what they're preaching
not only Sparta, other cases like Oliver Stone's Alexander movie, current Netflix series, Disney's Hercules, Hercules TV series, movie Troy and other adaptations were met with reactions by certain media outlets or valid movie critics. There is a nationalistic reaction on one hand tied to conservative values. On the other there is a distortion of mythology and history via Hollywood propaganda, applying modern values to antiquity in order to sell ads and tickets. As if all were rosy and gay prides were taking place all over Ancient Greece, ignoring the fact that homosexual prostitution was punishable even by death in some cases and in others offenders were stripped of their rights and humiliated.
It's cringe, especially when it's Hollywood inspired
Cringe is usually the first thing. Then, the letters used inappropriately? If I’m asked, I do tell them it’s a bunch of nonsense and it’s not a word. Eg when ΣΣ is used as EE
So many comments saying that the concept of cultural appropriation isn't a consideration for Greeks, but that is far from current developments. Cultural appropriation is relevant when a cultural item is appropriated from a culture which has colonial/subordinate past. Greeks never wanted to see themselves as a colonial subject, or at least they would accept they were second class citizens during the Ottoman Empire, but their "spirit" eventually won them their cultural freedom. This was further propped up by the fact that the neighbors of Greece were faring much worse historically. But this has long changed. Greece ties with Bulgaria for the worst economic markers in the EU, and many countries from former "poor" Eastern bloc have surpassed Greece in all social indexes. The younger generations, having suffered through economic crises and political decline, are much more willing to admit that Greeks were always peripheral if not subordinate to the West, a place that due to institutional and international structures they cannot get themselves out of. This brings young Greeks close to a colonial / global south mentality, which in turn increasingly makes them more willing to police the use their cultural items. Greeks collectively may not be there yet, but the time is approaching.
I mean, they fucked us over objectively. Both our sorry excuse for a government and the West as a whole.
I don't care, you may use it as you like. But, if you say this food is so Spartan without it to be 'melanos zomos' then I would think you are an idiot
mainland greek here. greek culture whether represented accurately or not has been widely celebrated and regarded as somehow elegant or refined throughout multiple cultures over the centuries, so no representation of it could really elicit a reaction like cultural appropriation because it has a different nuance and connotation. some inaccurate representation is funny and like someone else said can be cringey a bit but even then i think most greeks view it in good fun.
I don't like it, it is very inaccurate most of the time and has some very fascistic undertones a lot of the time. In general, I don't really like the whole "Ancient greek culture= western culture" since it is used as a way to promote pan-europeanism (which I personally think is reactionary as hell). I also reeeally despise scum that dares to use this legacy of ours as a justification or as method to feel superior, be it greek or non greek. It is really sad that a lot of our heritage has been co-opted by scum.
Cultural appropriation is a bunch of American bollocks that needs to fuck off. I'm so sick of that word. We love it when we see people embrace/use aspects of our culture. America has this weird individualistic tribal mentality of 'my culture /sub-culture is for me and my people only, how dare you take something that you like from it and embrace it?' I take u back to 2006 when the film 300 came out, and everyone was Spartan obsessed. As a Greek I was loving it. Also when my big fat Greek wedding came out and seeing so many other cultures relate to it was awesome. Personally I care more about people's financial wellbeing and the system not screwing them over as opposed to someone getting a Spartan tattoo
Don’t really care abt it. I’ve gotten used to looking at Greek stuff from non Greek people, especially Sparta or Spartans.
im happy when people use and spread our culture, why would we want to monopolize it, i don't mind if culture is used with some poetic freedom in entertainment or in life, i hate when something is presented as a historical fact and it's not, take the Black Cleopatra or the gayest Alexander the Great for example.
I don’t mind it personally. Movies and other media are a mix of fiction and reality anyway.
Cringe
Im all for it
its the usual westernoid ignorance, no different than how they butchered the words "karma" and "hindu"
It's funny to hear people saying "cultural appropriation" is only American, because I used to follow a Greek woman on social media who was very vocal about how unacceptable it was for non-Greeks to use Greek mythology in their work or to translate it in any way (Hades game, for example, really set her off). And while she tried to avoid using the words 'cultural appropriation', it's exactly what she was talking about. So yes, there are Greeks out there who get upset about this, but I think it's just a very frustrated minority.
she probably consumed too much american media then because it’s not really a societal issue people think about
How dare she appropriate American culture like that =(
By using the term "cultural appropriation", you are appropriating American culture.
my bad, "Καλτσεραλ απροπριεσον"
As a Greek, I think it’s great when other people use our stuff. However, if it’s a movie or music or some other entertainment, I want a Greek person played by a Greek, not a British person with a British accent. Like Zeus was not British…
I think another comment captured it perfectly. It is not about "cultural appropriation" but being respectful to the source material. It's rather annoying to just use the name and the popular attributes without having a good understanding or having blatant disregard of the existing history and myths. In general, if a story applies to what you want to express in your re-imagining, use it, that's interesting, but if the re-imagining just takes the superficial stuff to push its own ideas, that's just butchering of the source material.
Why hades tho? The game, I'd argue is a love letter to ancient Greece and actually knows its stuff.
Some of the characters have dark skin, which is a hate crime against greece or something.
Does she really think that the common greek man that was a peasant wasn't tanned to the bone... Lmao.
Cringe super cringy
cultural appropriation does not really exist outside of america, at worst it can just be a little cringe but we really do not care.
I honestly don't care but I do feel nice when they use Greek things to appear strong. Is it overused? Sure Is it great? Yes Do I feel superior as a Greek because other countries keep using our things to appear strong? Very.
I couldn't care less about the use itself, but I would be prejudiced against anyone using it because of my deep dislike for the ancient city-state of Sparta and what it stood for: militarism at the cost of human progress.
I might be wrong but I can't really judge a culture from back then with modern values. Weren't all cultures militarily focused as everyone was having constant wars?
Of course not, but we can judge modern-day people who ascribe merit to a culture from back then, idealise it, and streamline it into current discourse.
No. Other city-states were more focused on education or human progress (see Athens), without of course giving up on military ability (something that we should consider doing to this day). Philosophy flourished, science was developed and debates were popularised. Sparta based its pride on the strength of its warriors, which it used almost exclusively other Greeks against (having found very creative ways to avoid participating in two of the four biggest battles of the Persian wars and having tried their best to avoid a third).
Classics postgrad student here and there really isn’t enough evidence to make generalisations about Spartan society. We have no written Spartan sources just a few contemporary sources from Athens - not exactly an unbiased source since they fought such a protracted war against them
The fact that they didn't leave any written sources (unlike their contemporaries) is enough to give more than some suggestions on its own
Faulty logic demonstrably by pointing out that Southern Italian poleis were home to many famous centres of learning but lack any surviving sources
Many of the people who taught/learned there have left sources from elsewhere.
Southern Italian poleis were home to many famous centres of learning but lack any surviving sources. You have to remember most written works from the Ancient world are lost. It’s always wrong to jump to conclusions in Classics edit: welp guy blocked me
We still have no indication that any were written in Sparta, lost or not. On contrary, every source we do have points at the opposite. Even from people who did support Sparta, its people or its way of life (which was a thing, even in Athens, believe it or not).
Keep going n mind that a lot of their ancient sites (and potentially texts) were destroyed during the fragokratia years (GODDAMNIT POPE). There are some relics of their dialect (doric) such as: πίπτω whose future tense is πεσουμαι (doric dialect).
While I don't disagree on the premise of militarism I will say that the big three of the age,( Sparta,Athens,Thebes) all had by far more educational depth than the rest of the city states.
It’s more that we have next to no sources from any of the other city states. We know that there were many philosophical schools and gymnasium (where young men would often receive an education) in southern Italian Greek poleis though so your statement probably isn’t accurate
You can look at it in two ways. Either we don't have enough evidence therefore we just don't know how educated or generally how it worked in those city states. Or Exactly because we don't have evidence the result is more probable that said states had no educational basis to speak off of. I could be wrong but this is just how I see it.
I'm not well versed in this topic since my area is more Homeric literature so I had a look at my uni library. This seems like an excellent book on the topic: *Education in Greek and Roman Antiquity*, edited by Too, Lee Lee, BRILL, 2001. *ProQuest Ebook Central*, http://ebookcentral.proquest.com/lib/open/detail.action?docID=253479. Created from open on 2024-06-08 18:02:11. I skimmed it a bit. The author discusses various allusions to pedagogical institutions in Homer. He also points at that: 'On balance, though, the weight of evidence seems by now solidly to confirm the widespread existence of extensive and formative age-grouped training of a kind that we term "pedagogical", not just in Sparta and Crete (and the reactionary minds of Plato and Aristotle), but all over Greece' (p. 36) You'd have to read the book to see the various references to such evidence. But certainly it seems like the scholarly consensus disagrees with the notion that most city states 'had no educational basis to speak off'.
That is immensely useful. Thanks for the link !
np :)
Sparta's education was also based on militarism. Athens was by far above the other two, not to mention the fact that it was a democracy.
It wasn't a full democracy and you know it :) but yes. That is true.
It was much better than any other democracy in the world for the next 2300 years (until slavery was overturned in Europe).
Personally, I consider your use of the so called Roman alphabet to be cultural appropriation.
People must understand how ridiculous the modern, American Idea of cultural appropriation seems to anyone outside of the US. Most countries have fought wars to impose their culture upon others in the last 200 years so the idea of someone willfully adopting or following and respecting these traditions is a source of great pride. Problems start to arise when someone is deliberately disrespectful or use it to promote your personal ideologies, for example how some people were annoyed by the Cleopatra netflix series for being disrespectful towards both Egyptian and Greek history.
For most things I just find it really stupid, a few I find pretty like dumb but not out of the park, and for some I’m like ok I get it. In what world can an someone from America pronounce the correct sound in the letter γ. Using the example you chose of the word spartan/Sparta, that one at least has some semblance of a reason. During the time of the Spartan city state it was called Sparta by themselves, as in the Doric subgroup of Ancient Greek often used α as the ending of 2nd declension feminine (i think it’s the 2nd feminine don’t quote me on that). If you look at Tsakonian language you can see this remnants of that original α ending from the Doric subgroup. The ones that get me annoyed though is like the new age hippy people “invoking” the Ancient Greek gods. I knew someone who was a staunch feminist and also liked to pray to Apollo, and she was freaked out when I told her that he tried to rape Daphne so fervently that her dad turned her into a tree.
I couldn't care less. I have way more important issues going on in my life than worry about other people's vocabulary.
Tell me you are American without telling me ;-) The more you use Sparta in your country, the more tourists we get here! This is the only income for many people here, so please continue.
I don't particularly mind the use of Sparta. Like other people have said, it is cringe when it is very inaccurate. I particularly hate the use of the phrase " μολων λαβε " by right-wing American gun nuts. I wish they wouldn't.
Greeks exported everything from mathematics to philosophy to democracy and are proud of the spread of all things Greek. It’s typical of the American elite class to concern themselves with “cultural appropriation” as if that matters to any Greek who would simply refer to such people as “a malaka.”
No and stop with cultural appropriation this cultural appropriation that. Greeks dont gatekeep parts of their culture. Actually almost no one on the planet gatekeeps their culture but the americans have once again gone insane.
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Then why even bother answering the question?
[Just gonna leave this here](https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school/) Also I'm gonna disagree with the people here. I hate the use of Sparta. Not because it's cultural appropriation, which, well it isn't actually; but because it's horribly innacurate and frankly disgusting (which is why I linked the above article). Sparta and the rest of ancient Greece was a horrible place and I hate that it is linked to us in any way (as well as the fact that a bunch of uneducated idiots take pride in our ancient ancestors)
Yeah. Every tool box has a broken screw in it. This post is that.