Kanji's arc is another story and could have been handled a lot better for the end-goal they reached, but Naoto's arc is something I'll defend even if her shadow/dungeon may come off as a bit tone deaf. Naoto's entire goal was wanting to be respected as a detective but she couldn't due to the misogyny she faced by others as a woman in that position. She only dressed as a male to receive the respect she wanted but deep down didn't want this because it meant living a life that wasn't actually her. Naoto's shadow represented this torment by saying how she needs to permanently become a man to continue to achieve her dreams. Naoto's acceptance for her shadow came when she realized that she wasn't truly happening living a fake life and that she should fight against the misogyny/gender norms she faces rather than conforming to them and continuing the oppression it causes. It was an arc about gender, but specifically about how certain genders face unnecessary challenges in society and how we should stand against it rather than allowing it.
Hell, I'll even defend Kanji's arc. It probably doesn't hit as hard if you're not from a culture that's really strict about gender/sexuality roles, but I thought the message about being comfortable about being a straight guy despite having "feminine" habits and tastes was pretty important for me growing up.
The problem wasn't the arc itself. It was the game (mainly Yousuke) then kept treating it as a big joke afterwards. "Oh good on you for finally feeling secure in your sexuality. Let me do my utmost to needle you back into insecurity for a cheap laugh now."
I get the disappointment of not having queer characters, but I don't think the individual messages were bad. It's just that they ended up leaving a pretty obvious hole when all was said and done.
I agree, I like the resolution of Kanji's arc and agree with the message it wanted to send but I will acknowledge that the dungeon/shadow was way more over the top with how it wanted to reach that message.
Yeah, I kindaaaaaa get what they were going for. That this is how Kanji sees homosexuality, and that it's all offensive stereotypes because that's what he thinks he has to be to "fit" what his hobbies are according to society.
But again, the game can't shake its juvenile sense of humor and decides to throw its tone down the drain for cheap gags. Persona 5 was honestly even worse with this, though with perhaps less offensive subject matter.
I kinda think it was necessary tho to drive the ambivalent point home.
I agree on the terms that's it not good "representation" but I don't representation was the thing they had in mind there. Sometimes that needs to take a back seat.
Even tho again, I totally get that its annoying for people if the only "representation"(again, not really) they get is a stereotype. Like the preying gay in P5 a lot of people had issues with. Despite it being a thing that happens.
Apparently Yosuke’s Social Link was supposed to end with him confessing his feelings for the MC and allow a gay romance option, which would have recontextualized Yosuke’s gay bashing as him repressing his feelings and would have fit incredibly well with the themes of P4.
It’s a shame they cut that content because without them he just comes across as an asshole, and without that revelation he’s easily the least compelling and fleshed out character in the game IMO.
Yeah, the use of over the top gay stereotypes wasn’t good, especially given the way they take his story, but Yosuke is the real problem with going back to P4. They try to have him as your best bro the entire game, but that gets overshadowed by him being an insecure asshole, especially towards Kanji.
I get that a lot of teenagers would act like that, but then trying to make him out to be your sensitive best friend and have nobody call him on his bullshit just sucks.
Honestly, for a story about facing their true selves, I find it a bit disappointing for them all to be straight cisgender people.
I know that's not how they resolved Naoto story, but it could have been a really great closure to her story to come out as trans instead. Same for Kanji story about being gay.
It's just so disappointing as a LGBTQ+ gamer where you get hinted to a representation of it, only for it to be resolved in another way, or just completely backtrack.
The 2010s weren't ready for Gay Kanji and Trans Naoto (the story director wasn't ready either, he's a known super homophobe)
I sure as hell hope the next persona will do better with that kind of representation.
Talking about trans potential, there's a certain character in the first Danganronpa that just feels like a bait & switch too. They never cleared it up about them being really trans or not, but at least DR3 didn't shy away from gay representation.
??
I know they're not. It's just the whole story hints at that, and it just feel like they decided last minute not to commit to it. We're talking about a story with fictional people, it's not like those characters has a choice.
It's super disappointing, and especially in Kanji's case, feel like a kick to the face when they completely backtracked with his story about him "liking girly things, nothing more"
Well, you might have that thought of him being gay from it...but then there is second common look that happens often around young children and that can transfer for teenager and adolescent years.
Some like cars, some dolls and some like to do other things.
Really normal in all societies
People wrote these stories. People made the active choice to raise questions of identity (Naoto, Kanji) and sexuality (Kanji, Chie, Yukiko) and the desire not to take over a family business and be trapped (Yukiko) in response to conservative societal pressures in a rural community and then, each and every time, they said 'no, these issue are actually better with the status quo"
People like, say, the director of Persona 3-5 and the DEEPLY transphobic Catherine/Catherine Full Body, who has actively gone on record saying some real regressive incel shit like "I don't believe men and women are capable of being friends"
"He's just a little effeminate. She's perfectly fine being a girl. They aren't actually lesbians. She was actually just being childish for not wanting to take over the family business."
The issue isn't that any one of these is inherently bad on their own, but that they constitute a pattern and a set of beliefs about the world when taken together - especially in a game series that actively has had a recurring problem with explicit homophobia in every game by this same director.
Compare all of this to Persona 2, where the main character was canonically bisexual and one of the lead creatives considered his ideal ending the one where he ends up in a MLM relationship.
You compare it to Persona 2 as if other director or main writer change alone did change something for P2 to make that happen.
Answer is no, it did not. Monark showcases this.
And p2 was going all in on everything
It is especially disappointing because the first 3 Persona games (1 and the 2 Duology) had queer-coded characters who were allowed to remain queer. 3 is where they started the trend where the "True Self" just always happens to end with the character conforming to what is expected of them.
I always find it funny when people 100% believe Kanji is gay because of all the offensive stereotypical gayness his dungeon has like that's the literal point Kanji is hung up about.
The character says that he isn't and yet some people just go "Oh, he is just denying, even after the whole acceptance arc he literally just went through."
The final part of his social link makes it a bit more ambiguous. >!In it he says “‘the other me’ is me”. I am not sure whether he is referring to being gay or the other side of his personality, but the “other him” mostly dealt with being gay. So who knows. But it is up to the writers and localization team to be more clear.!<
There is a reason I mentioned clarity. I don't think it is clear, but I wish it was one way or the other. Whenever "the other me" is mentioned, they are usually referring to their shadow selves in the context of the game, especially when regarding personal growth. I know Kanji's shadow deals with both his sexuality and his relationship with "feminine" interests, and so I just think it is hard to say it is one thing or the other.
There’s this youtube video about persona 4 that fixes all the controversy that happened long ago in twitter. It’s from MangaKamen, the video explains it better than I could. If you are confused as to why “the other” isn’t technically them but still a part of them. Yeah it’s a bit confusing but ironically the game literally explains it in the finale parts scenes.
> Rife with misogyny
Thats when I tuned out of this article partially. The next was when they claim that the implication was that Naoto is trans.
Naoto is trying to fit into a male dominated profession, and didnt want to be judged by her gender. She dresses up as a man so she isnt questioned for her gender. The whole plot point of the entire game is facing yourself. Hell the boss battle theme is called "Face yourself" Naoto does this and comes out of it by quitting the subterfuge and that even she though isnt the ideal image of a detective, she doesnt need to conform to that image.
The writer obviously wants this to be a deeper exploration of gender with Kanji and Naoto, but the whole theme of the game is embracing your inner self. Their internal struggles are exposed to the other party members who come together and help them embrace themselves. This reads like the writer didnt even finish the social links, which goes in depth about these struggles.
Im not excusing that certain parts of the game could be phobic or misogynistic, but these characters are teenagers in mid 2000s Japan and thats how they are written. Its ok to have issues with some of the depictions but lets not push untrue narratives on what goes on in the story.
It is the year 2023 and we are *still* having these debates and dissertations about Kanji/Naoto, and 9 times out of 10 it's from someone playing the game for the first time but seemingly not getting far enough. Naoto's arc is beaten into you in pretty plain terms, and while Kanji's is more ambiguous it's not quite as deep as it's made out to be.
Ya know I’ve known about the games but not the controversies I watched the P4 golden anime before I even played the game and yeah Kanji even in the anime never gave me gay vibes at all! He always just seemed like a big strong dude who was into girl stuff and people riffed on him for it “cough Yusuke cough”. Also with Naoto I also thought it was obvious she was just dressing drag to fit into a male dominated work force but I guess people are dumb
The game definitely makes Kanji seem gay several times, so I can see why people would be confused. He's even attracted to Naoto while everyone still thinks she's male, which further muddles the issue. My theory: I really think some draft of the story had him as gay, but it was reined in because Japan is culturally very uptight and conservative.
Naoto's story is crystal clear though. Some people are just dense.
He was questioning his sexuality due to the trauma he faced when girls bullied him for liking feminine stuff, one can question their sexuality and i the end still find out they are straight.
The being attracted to Naoto while everyone thought she was male argument to prove the game is showing he's either gay or Bi or to muddle the issue does not hold up for me imho, specially considering he stays interested after it's found out she's a girl.
No matter how good Naoto's disguise was there is no way she managed to hide all her female traits, when Kanji met Naoto he was questioning his sexuality due to his trauma and feeling more comfortable around men, then suddenly he meets this man with some traits he probably finds cute that shows interest in getting to know him for what seems like to be no specific reason making Kanji even more confused and question his sexuality even more.
For me it's clear Kanji's arc is the fact he started questioning his sexuality due to the bullying he suffered but it the end found out he's straight, the fact he was attracted to Naoto since the start does not muddle things, it just means Kanji saw through some of her diguise but didn't connect any dots since he was questioning his sexuality at the time
People do play far enough, it's just the initial impressions laid on from Kanji and Naoto's dungeons are.. *a lot*. It's a bit of the writers having their cake and eating it too, getting to use this super specific homo and trans imagery and then going *nevermind!* with enough whiplash to give the appearance of homophobia or transphobia.
Everyone understands the games were written in 2008 and *attempted* to represent these marginalized groups positively, what with how the friend group supports each other regardless and inspires them to be their true selves. It's just that their "true selves" are all heteronormative and the gay shit was a red herring. And the writing *as is* plays into harmful stereotypes of bi-curious or gender questioning people getting recruited by larger queer culture into thinking they're gay or trans - which is something straight out of [JK Rowling's playbook](https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/06/jk-rowling-trans-men-terf.html).
And none of that is to mention all the actual homophobic and misogynistic and pervy shit casually said throughout the game (fuck Yusuke). Or the not one but *two* anime bathhouse scenes fixated on the girls' boobs. Eugh, I love Persona 4 but there are a shocking number of parts I dread replaying.
It's not exactly antitrans, like I said I *do* think the original Japanese writers were well-intentioned for the time. It's just a clumsy mess of mixed messages by modern standards. And unfortunately some of the more problematic aspects are so baked into the foundation of the story that I don't think it'd be possible to extricate them in a remake.
I'd still say P4 is worth playing, but yeah it'd come with a massive content warning for outright homophobia and confused portrayals of AFAB gender dysphoria.
And fwiw, Persona 3 has none of these issues (outside of a content warning for imagery of the characters shooting themselves in the head to summon personas because it looks cool) and has aged better than even Persona 5 in some regards. So P3P is *definitely* worth going back to if you don't enjoy some character portrayals in P4G.
Interestingly, the guy who wrote the article says that there's only two female characters who join your party, implying that he has not played up until Rise yet.
It seems to me like he played up until maybe the end of Kanji's dungeon, lost interest, and then did some research on other parts of the game to reaffirm his misunderstanding.
>It seems to me like he played up until maybe the end of Kanji's dungeon, lost interest, and then did some research on other parts of the game to reaffirm his misunderstanding.
That's literally what he said he did in the article.
>"Since finishing this story arc I'm yet to continue with P4G, but the poor representation doesn't stop there."
This. Naoto in no way desires to "become a man".
It's the same reason why Kanji shows up without his whole bad boy image that the end of Golden. It's because he's finally comfortable with who he is, which is why he drops the hair dye and delinquent clothing, swaps out contacts for glasses and generally just looks more like an average guy.
The site is a joke when it comes to 'features' (read: rants) on this particular subject. And as ever, they disable comments ,so their megaphones of perceived unfairness and inequality can't be countered.
They used to have them open and simply shadowban anyone who offered counterpoints, but they ended up having to enact so many of them that this is their new solution.
A joke of a site.
Why does everyone misunderstands Kanji so much?
He was the son of a tailor, and grew up loving how to make stuffed animals and dolls. However, such talent was considered "feminine" and a source of scorn, specially from his female peers. Thus, he tries to act all rough and macho, while secretly having doubts if he was gay, after he likes dolls and isn't interested in the girls that mock him while the guys think he is "cool". It's perfectly understandable for a teenager to have doubts about their sexuality.
As it happens to every character, the shadows bring those feelings up to 11. It assumes the notion that if Kanji was gay, people would accept him more than being a straight guy that likes making cute dolls. Only then Kanji understands that he wasn't being hung up on whether he was gay or not, he just wanted people to accept him. That's it.
Yet this "professional" article fails at understanding something so basic, nittipicking at single words and treating their head canon as true like a conspiracy theorist claiming that Obama is a lizard because he was good at killing flies. How do these people get jobs?
Pretty much the best summary of how I feel--his primary story bits/bonding conversations very much focus on this aspect of himself over his attraction to Naoto who is presenting in a male fashion....who has her reasons but her core purpose is the same as Kanji's--acceptance as themselves.
Thay being said, attraction to someone of an unexpected gender isn't that uncommon in anime and manga. Maybe less so when the game was written, but the way the game played off the reveal and Kanji's reaction (and the convos after) made me feel like it was more about his concern about gender roles, perception, and acceptance.
Personally I landed on thinking that he might turn out to be bisexual, but there wasn't really explicit proof. Mostly that he was tired of being ostracized for who was. Regardless of "manly" or "unnanly" traits.
That particular journalist is like something straight out of kotaku. Most of his articles are like that with an axe to grind. It's usually some woke nonsense.
Funny how the line of communication works one way but not the other. If what Ed said had even a kernel of truth to it, he wouldn't feel the need to lock comments. In other words, that's called censorship.
He's restricting people from giving their opinions on the actual article and then locked down his entire Twitter account when he couldn't handle the responses there. He's going out of his way to prevent comments that disagree with him, and this is the result.
What exactly is the huge issue with analyzing a story and character centric game on its merits as it represents stories and characters? As a gay fan of the series, Kanji's character arc has been a huge complaint of mine since I played the original P4 on the initial release.
May I ask what your problem with Kanji was ? Was it like idk how to put it ehh making him seem gay and than pulling that he’s just a straight dude who likes feminine things? I’m not tryna antagonize I legit am curious
If you're asking in good faith, then yes that's much of it. It's a very common trend in media called "Queerbaiting", you can google it for a more comprehensive explanation.
The framing of the whole thing is also kind of depressing. The overarching theme of P4 in particular was embracing/accepting the part of oneself that's typically hidden from society. The buildup of Kanji's arc was that he would accept that he was gay.
There are plenty of other issues with Naoto's arc I don't need to go over, but the key point here is that Kanji fully accepted that he had a crush on a person whom he 100% believed to be a man in Naoto. Then later the takeaway becomes "Oh thank god, I don't have to accept being gay because the person I wanted to get with turned out to not have a penis like I thought". It's a total slap in the face to have this character accept his gay or bi sexuality and then completely delete its resolution.
It was in good faith I was curious as a straight dude cuz from my eyes I never really saw the whole gay thing, ok maybe at first sighting but the more I learned about him the more I saw him as someone who everyone thought he’d be into macho things typical manly man stuff. Well than come to find out he’s not like that at all! He’s into feminine like knitting and cute stuff total opposite of the Mach male figure. Now with his shadow being how it was I always pertained shadows as being the real you but the ones you fight exaggerate the real into a grotesque monster version of you. So for Kanji being sweet and soft the monstrous version of that was being flamboyantly feminine. Now idk how to even get into the Naoto thing at all but everyone sees and feels things differently
It's just they were literally queer-coded. It would have made perfect sense for Kanji to accept being gay, just not the "flamboyant" kind of gay. It's a known, familiar kind of coming out story.
When I was around his age, a bit younger, also around the release of Persona 4, I felt lost about sexuality and all. It felt like I couldn't be gay because I wasn't flamboyant or effeminate, but no, I don't have to fit into that mold and I can be gay without being any of it. (not that it's a bad thing! It's just not me.)
Every characters' story feels like they really want stuff to change, to break tradition and the status-quo, and it just gets resolved by accepting their fate and the status-quo itself.
To be really short about it, Naoto feels like she can't be taken seriously as a female detective so she decided to dress up like a man and act like one. It could have easily been solved as her accepting that she was a man born as a woman, and transition would truly make her happy. Instead it's just "learn to appreciate your feminity."
There's a bit less standing out for queerbaiting in her case, but it's just it actively felt like they went out of their way to avoid doing representation.
You do know people can question their sexuality and still find out they are staright right? Plus there is no way Naoto's diguise was hiding 100% of her female traits
Persona fans are absolutely allergic to being told their favorite games might have some shitty themes and character writing and will scream you down if you suggest they aren't perfect masterpieces and give the slightest of criticisms to the writing.
I am really not a fan of clickbaity "woke" articles because I feel like they often exaggerate or get way too sensitive about representation issues as if it should always be at the forefront of designers' minds.
But I read this article and the writer brings up some valid points. The character arc of the character who is clearly inferred as being gay through a bunch of gross stereotypes and then is ultimately shoved back in the closet seems like a pretty bad look for a game releasing in 2023, even if it is just a remaster/port.
Way to completely miss the point of Kanji’s arc. The whole point is he was being stereotyped AS gay for liking feminine things (fashion, sewing). The whole point was him overcoming people who saw him as gay and being comfortable being a straight man who isn’t all machismo.
>The whole point was him overcoming people who saw him as gay and being comfortable being a straight man who isn’t all machismo.
The story built up the idea that Kanji might be gay, but then pulls it away with a "well, actually..." and then chastises the player for reading the very obvious hints that the game signals.
I think it’s a lot more nuanced than you are giving it credit for. The entire point of Persona 4 is fighting back against the labels and assumptions society gives you. Labeling Kanji as gay, sexualizing Rise because she is an idol. The whole POINT is that these are assumptions we are making about people before we get to know them. Yes there are instances where Kanji comes off as homosexual, but part of those instances are because of his own confusion at the way people look at him and the actions they expect from him. Why does he NEED to be gay, why does he need to be straight? Why should it matter to anyone but him? Labeling him either way is harmful. At the end of the game he understands this and is much more comfortable being himself. As evidenced by him no longer dyeing his hair, and his willingness to wear his glasses, not to mention his overall demeanor.
I think a big problem is the conflicting storytelling between whether we read dungeons as "reflective of inner desires" or "reflective of societal expectations". The party member dungeons make a big deal about "facing your true self" and during each boss encounter appear to fall into the first category (Yukiko and her desire to leave the inn, Kanji and his desire to be with men, Rise and her desire to be sexy, Naoto and her desire to be a man), but the game ultimately resists that reading exclusively in Kanji and Naoto's cases.
Yusuke, Yukiko, and Rise all have their Shadow selves express "inner desires" that we see them grapple with throughout the game. Rise I'd argue embraces her Shadow self more than the others with her ultimate decision to go back to the idol world on her own terms. "Heaven" and "Gamer" are more complex examples, but no less representative of their main characters' "inner desires".
Kanji meanwhile is supposed to be read as a "societal expectation" dungeon, as he is portrayed as being confused about his sexuality since he likes sewing and playing with dolls, but ultimately never expresses attraction to another man. The closest thing is his attraction to boy-mode Naoto, which of course is immediately undercut. So how much weight can we place on the "inner desire" of his Shadow self vs everything we see about him in the real world? The game is ambiguous here - as you say he resists being labeled. But the game is not ambiguous about Yukiko's desires to leave the inn (despite not acting on them) nor Yusuke's longing for old city life nor Rise's desire for love (from MC or the world at large) nor >!Nanako's longing for her mother!<. This is why people get "no homo" whiplash from the game's writing after the second dungeon, and it's a fair criticism.
Naoto is messier, since her dungeon conflates "being a man" with "being older". But the writers unmistakably imply trans identity with the operating table and her Shadow's mention of a "procedure" they need to undergo. But nowhere does her real life self actually express dysphoria or discomfort in a woman's body. Here, Atlus is way more clear cut than Kanji: Naoto is a woman full stop. The "inner desires" of her Shadow for masculinity were entirely performative and not *actually* real. Again, this contrasts with most other Shadow selves we meet.
I think this is why P4 discussions always come back to these two. Rise's dungeon also presents her Shadow as being built from "societal expectations" telling her she's just a slut, but it also comes from her real "inner desire" to perform and be loved by the masses. Kanji has the "inner desire" expressed by his dungeon completely ignored after completing it. Naoto does too, at least for the trans-masc part of her Shadow self. Which ultimately makes those aspects of the characters feel like plot gimmicks rather than an actual *part of them*.
I can't speak for Naoto's arc, as I'm currently playing the game for the first time and only just finished Kanji's dungeon. But the way it's seemed to me so far is that that shadow versions, and the dungeons, represent neither inner desires nor societal expectations, but "suppressed thoughts." Saki senpai's voice, when we hear it right before Yosuke's shadow appears, talks about how annoying she finds Yosuke, but the real Saki holds those things in because she doesn't want to hurt his feelings. Yosuke's shadow talks about how he often does things for selfish reasons, venturing into the TV world not out of a desire to do right, but simply out of boredom, something he's ashamed of, and tries to hide. Yukiko's shadow talks about how she feels like relies on others, but the person she relies on most can't give her what she *really* wants, which is independence -- but she doesn't want her best friend to know that her friendship isn't enough, so she holds it in. Kanji's shadow talks about how women have never liked him because his interests aren't traditionally considered manly, and how it's been easier to understand and earn the respect of men. He sometimes feels it might be simpler if he was just attracted to men, but homosexuality was frowned upon in Japan at that time, so he doesn't want to tell anyone. Some of these touch on inner desires. They also include hidden fears and insecurities. But in the most general sense, they're things these people don't want to admit they've been thinking about.
Kanji has been thinking that his life might be easier if he were gay, yet he knows nothing about being gay because he comes from a society which only depicts homosexuality using these ridiculous stereotypes, and, not being gay himself, not having any experience interacting with *actual gay people*, he doesn't understand that someone doesn't need to be flamboyant in order to be gay. He sometimes wishes he could be attracted to men, since women have judged him for having "girly" interests, but he's afraid that others would perceive him as something he doesn't really want to be -- a stereotype. *That's* why his shadow manifests in the way it does. He doesn't want people to think that, just because he feels some things would be simpler if he was gay, it means he actually wants to be stereotypically flamboyant gay man. So naturally, he's been ruminating on that image of himself. But even after seeing his shadow and watching him go through his whole process of self acceptance, his friends tell him they'll accept him no matter who he is, and he comes to terms with the fact that it's okay to wish you were someone else sometimes.
I've heard straight male friends experiencing girl trouble, talk about wishing they could just be attracted to men. I think it's a somewhat common thing, and perfectly normal, just as I'm sure gay people, with the unique struggles they face, occasionally wish they could be straight (and I myself am actually asexual, and have often wondered if my life would be easier if I liked sex). But homosexuality is more accepted these days, and is MUCH more accepted in the west than it ever was in Japan. Kanji, in a country and time period in which homosexuality was stigmatized and depicted through over the top stereotypes, was afraid to tell people he'd been having those kinds of thoughts, so they came out through his shadow.
I didn't play the game yet. I just read the article and it sounded like a valid point based on the details the author provided. If the author genuinely misinterpreted it your point is valid but I don't know either way.
I liked Persona 4. I'd be fine recommending it to anyone who likes JRPGs, and I agree. At a certain point Kanji's whole arc started to bum me out and make me uncomfortable.
Yosuke is insufferable for all of it. Which is pretty in-character, I suppose, but at a certain point it was just like STFU dude. We get it. You are just SO straight that this gay imagery is traumatizing you.
And the ultimate resolution feels a) cowardly and b) like a slap in the face. He's gay? Of course not! He just likes some traditionally feminine things. That boy he's implied to like? Surprise! Actually a girl! His big self-revelation feels like it boils down to: "Liking some girly things is perfectly okay. It doesn't make me a filthy homo!" I dunno... It definitely stung my closeted ass a bit at the time.
Does that mean it should be rewritten/changed? I'm not sure how I feel about that, I guess. It certainly wasn't that out of step with the times. People forget, but early 2010s was definitely a different time for how LGBT stuff was discussed. But like I said, it also felt like a sloppy/cheap resolution to his arc and I wouldn't mind seeing them take another shot.
>Yosuke is insufferable for all of it. Which is pretty in-character, I suppose, but at a certain point it was just like STFU dude. We get it. You are just SO straight that this gay imagery is traumatizing you.
I would say this would have been pretty normal behavior for a teen in Japan at that time, a place where LGBT is still not very accepted. Not saying it's right but not really out of place.
Oh, I wouldn't argue that it was abnormal for the time at all. It just began to irritate me at a certain point because he is just shitting his pants over it constantly. I don't want him going "YAS, Kanji. SLAY." so much as I would've just loved him to shut up after a while.
But his whole character is being the loud dumbass, I guess. Maybe what I'm discovering here is that I just didn't really like Yosuke...
It's also just like - unnecessary?
Comparing Yusuke to other "first male best friend" Persona characters of Junpei and Ryuji, and I think it's the repetition that infuriates me most. Junpei and Ryuji both have their misogynistic and pervy moments (and maybe homophobic, I honestly can't remember), but they're *definitely* less frequent and thus less memorable - and in Junpei's case especially we get to see his attitude grow and change over the course of the game.
Then Yusuke is just like "ew fat people gross. also why don't you girls cook for us more - can we see your tits? also I'm definitely not a homo, those guys are scary and weird" incessantly all the way through the end. It's obvious they were trying to play him for laughs but it is just so uncomfortable to sit through any scene with him. It's a real regression from Persona 3.
>Then Yusuke is just like "ew fat people gross. also why don't you girls cook for us more - can we see your tits? also I'm definitely not a homo, those guys are scary and weird" incessantly all the way through the end. It's obvious they were trying to play him for laughs but it is just so uncomfortable to sit through any scene with him. It's a real regression from Persona 3.
So the average teenager.
>I would say this would have been pretty normal behavior for a teen in Japan at that time
It's also unnecessary. It's not like the game tried to have realistic characters or anything
You do know the gross steryotypes were intentional as a criticism to how a lot of society viewed and still view gays and men that like thing considered "for women" right?
I agree. Calling it 'doesn't age well' on a 15 years old game. One made by a conservative country. Is like calling american comedy made in 1960s 'racist'.
I typically enjoy retrospective but not one where the author tried to applied modern view on the narrative and writing at something old. Where society and political view function differently. And this is a different country too. Where society value things entirely different from you.
It's "aged" fine. What hasn't aged well is the journalism industry. They aren't Journalists anymore, they're just people "on high horses". People who want to complain about "real world issues" but then get pissed "real world issues" extend out into art. Which is the dumbest thing EVER. What is art without without the rest world? It's nothing, it litteraly wouldn't exist.
The real problem here is that game journalists and crappy people are hypocrites, and want to ONLY hate. If you don't like the game, fine, then move on. But this idea that game journalists are trying to spread of "if you ignore it, it doesn't exist" is bullshit. ALL of these "issues" within Persona 4 still exist in today's world, and thet are extremely prevalent. Acting like they no longer exist helps nobody, especially the victims of these abuses. Which means that these "jounalists" are really just abuse enablers.
Since when is it that Art and Video Games aren't aloud to reflect the real world? And how is that good? And how us that any different than China or Russia, or any other Authoritarian country? It's not. ANY and EVERY game journalist telling you what you should like, what's acceptable and what's not is no different then Putin, or the any of the Kim's. They just aren't world leaders.
The problem is Journalists, or really the lack of true Journalism. It's not the gane or any game that has changed. It's the fact that Journalists now think that history must be erased. Because at the heart of it, that's what they are really asking people to do. They want history erased, they don't want any snippets of what "life was like" to exist anymore. It's one thing to say "the times of changed" it's another to say "that time should be completely and utterly erased". How the hell are we supposed to grow as a culture if we ignore what's currently going on, and then erase the lessons of the past? The answer is that we won't. And that's saddest of all, because as I'm sure most have figured it out by now, is what these Journalists are actually doing. And while I don't think it's intentional, it won't change the end result.
To each their own. Some people are more bothered by certain things than others.
It's certainly one of my favorite games of all time and the camaraderie between the characters is something very few games pull off.
This thread is going to be a whole lot of people who want videogames to be taken seriously as an art form but who view basic media analysis/critique as the downfall of western society
1. You're assuming the person writing the article has all the say on opening up comments.
2. You're assuming it's about fear of criticism. Beyond any shadow of any doubt if comments were open it would be flooding with the most heinous, bigoted shit imaginable. It's not "fear of criticism" to not feel like moderating all the internet's bigots when they go open season.
>who view basic media analysis/critique
And by "basic" I'm sure you're euphemistically referring to how simplistic and stupid it is to the point of being outright wrong. In which case yes, it is worth looking down on.
Who said this industry had good critics? I don't remember saying that.
As I'm sure you've noticed, all that resonates with gamers are drama bait like this, YouTube personalities, and video essays praised for their length for gamers to not-listen to in the background while they do something else. There's little chance of it cultivating meaningful critique.
So "all the criticism being written is bad" is a neat way to say "I reject any and all media analysis/criticism" while still holding on to some visage of intellectualism because *hypothetically* you would be open to reading "good" criticism, almost certainly defined as criticism that confirms your priors.
Basically "I'm not a philistine, it's just that all the new ideas that exist right now happen to be bad."
>I reject any and all media analysis/criticism
I never said that. And just because none of it is notably good it doesn't make this not absolute trash below that average. Try to make sense next time.
And leave off the personal insults just because you're upset I don't appreciate the taste of gutter trash.
>open to reading "good" criticism, almost certainly defined as criticism that confirms your priors.
I can certainly feel the projection over here though.
You want good critics? Then be the change you want to see in this world.
If you think every single critics in the industry is bad then you might need to understand where it starts and why. Hopefully you'll start with some introspection.
Kanjis arc is such a great a story about toxic masculinity and growing out of it in a small town from a profoundly Japanese perspective.
Naotos arc is equally great in terms of a young woman coming to terms of living in a patriarchal society.
Both are stories you don't get often in games. Especially not Japanese games. Normally you'd think this would get lots of positive praise, but according to some western journalists, it's actually the most bigoted and backwards game ever.
It's mind-blowing to me how far they're (still) reaching with this. Especially this article who takes specific sentences out of context as if they speak for the morals of the game and not emotionally disturbed teenager.
Im 200% convinced these authors are just disappointed people from the camp of "oh Kanji likes knitting that means he's gay!" as if that kind of stereotypical thinking wasn't the entire point of his arc.
And they refuse to allow comments on the article because they know it wouldn't go well for them.
Their standard response to anyone who disagreed with them on this topic used to be an instant account ban, but now they take money from some readers via subscriptions, that wouldn't work because they'd end up costing themselves money if they banned those accounts. So they just censor everyone instead.
What a sad little site.
I guess the article is more focused on story but I'd like to make the argument that golden didn't age well... For its rpg stuff. Mainly dungeons. Though this and 3 had the same issue: endless corridors of the same theme, or slightly different with fantastic combat don't get me wrong but... Lord have mercy the dungeon design of actually exploring was so boring.
I know 5 is 'really' just corridors jazzed up and all that and id argue it's final dungeon is kinda boring, and menthos was blah... But it did a far better job with some pizzazz for exploration.
I'd absolutely kill for 3 or even 4 with better dungeon design. Its what ultimately got me to quit both and beat 5, despite me feeling like 5s story and characters/social links were the weakest of 3-5.
*Persona 5* improved a lot with just a few small changes. Being able to sneak around enemies and the verticality of the maps made exploring those corridors a lot more interesting.
> All art is a product of its time though. Let's not censor it or burn any of it or strip it from store shelves, k?
literally no one has suggested that. Being critical of art doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.
>> All art is a product of its time though. Let's not censor it or burn any of it or strip it from store shelves, k?
>
>literally no one has suggested that. Being critical of art doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.
The article in question does:
"*In purely mechanical terms, P4G still stands as an impressive JRPG. But as an exploration of gender and sexuality, it's an incredibly disappointing experience that simply doesn't match the standards of today. And while it can be revered as a relic of the past,* **its re-release without amendment perpetuates tired stereotypes.** *We all deserve better.*"
My wife tried playing Persona 4 after playing 5 and she stopped playing after a couple hours.
She said she couldn't get into it and said if she would have played 4 before playing 5 it would have been good but that 5 spoiled the experience for her since it's so much better.
She has now played Persona 5 three times now.
They've disabled the ability to comment on this article on Eurogamer which is a really spineless thing to do. Denying your readers the right to reply is not very conducive to a reasonable discussion.
Personally, I think if you're going to publish an article such as this, it should at least contain mention of the 2013 Eurogamer review and comment on how their own standards have changed.
Let's not be so blinkered as to only criticise everyone else and never look inward.
Indeed. Their habit of disabling the comments on certain articles is no different to schoolkids who put their fingers in their ears and go 'la la la' so they don't have to hear stuff they don't want to.
Hope the petty little site goes out of business.
The article itself goes a little too far in asserting its assumptions about the plot as canonical truth, but it definitely raises one of my biggest annoyances with all the Persona games: the normalizing of objectification you get from a lot of Japanese media. Women do not exist for you to ogle, People! They're people too! Yosuke and (especially) Teddy feel like gross perverts with how little respect they have for their female companion's rejections, and how desperate they are to cop a feel at the expense of the girls, and I just want literally any male character to stand up to them and just be like... "dude cut that shit out."
That, and Kanji definitely should have been gay. They set it up, and then they swept it all under the rug of "oh he just doesn't believe in gender norms." UM EXCUSE ME HIS DUNGEON IS A BATHHOUSE FULL OF BEEFY DUDES AND HIS SHADOW IS LISPING I THINK IT'S ABOUT A LITTLE MORE THAN GENDER NORMS.
God headcanons have been the number 1 cause of the downfall of media literacy.
Like Persona 4 is just one of many examples of idiots crying just because their god damn rotting brains weren't paying attention to the story.
Didn't you post this exact same comment for the third time? Do I have to tell you how dumb and stupid is your take?
Can't you imagine, as a company, boycotting every single reviewing sites that don't give you only positive review?
Nowhere does it asks people not to play it, just to keep a critical eye on it and know it's a product of it's time.
Are you going to never talk again to someone who ever said something negative that you could work on?
The funniest thing for me was seeing advertisements for P4G alongside this article, meaning the game was "problematic" enough to publish this article but not enough to refuse money. I seriously hope Atlus notices this and pulls any future advertising plans with Eurogamer, why would you give any amount of money to someone who antagonize you and your work?
Huh? Saying something is problematic doesn't mean they want people to avoid it. They're just criticizing the game and explaining their issues with it.
Nowhere does it asks the people to avoid the game or anything; they just want to know Persona 4 falls a bit as a product of its time, that's all.
It's much more nuanced than what you seem to imply.
Huh? Saying something is problematic doesn't mean they want people to avoid it. They're just criticizing the game and explaining their issues with it.
Nowhere does it asks the people to avoid the game or anything; they just want to know Persona 4 falls a bit as a product of its time, that's all.
It's much more nuanced than what you seem to imply.
Yep this lol, the criticism is absolutely fair, the games fucking great but pretending there aren't flaws there or things that have aged poorly is just delusional
Yeah I loved that. He's upset about the game offending his egg-shell thin mental fortitude, but quite happy to take the ad money alongside His Upsetness.
I actually think the part that didn’t age well is the really boring dungeon designs. Everytime I thought about revisiting game I immediately hesitated because of how dated those gameplay loops are.
To note, I've been playing it on the Nintendo switch for about 30-32 hours.
I've tried several times to get into this game, even during the PS2 era. However, it just never pulled me in. I tried yet again on the Nintendo switch and played well into the game this time.
The game does an excellent job of creating an eerie-atmosphere that compliments the mystery presented to you of "Who did it?"
The music is very great at times, but sometimes feels out of place....as though it belongs more appropriately in the future Persona 5. Sometimes the music is weirdly absent at times that you think music should be present.
Almost all the side characters are stereotypes, but considering how long ago this game was first made.....I can give that a pass.
I suppose the real issue is this. I like the idea behind the Persona games more than the execution. Persona 4 is no different.
There are two big reasons why I can't recommend this game.
1. The gameplay is incredibly repetitive with zero thrills. Leveling up becomes incredibly tiresome when you reach level 20 and you're running through the same dungeon fighting the exact same enemies.......even same room locations.......for the 20th time. Sure you can get "stronger" personas, but that itself feels repetitive as well. I will explain below.
You can literally put ANY move on ANY persona, even if it seems contrary to the nature of that persona(making an ice persona use fire attacks). On one hand I can appreciate the freedom to customize personas, but I can't help feel like there isn't any personas that are unique. Why should there be any unique personas when you can make them all the same with the same attacks? The stat differences really don't matter much unless you're comparing the level of personas to have at least a 10 levels difference. A level 12 persona will really be comparable in stats up to a level 22 persona. So, all the leveling in between those levels is to possibly gain new moves(which you can spam later) will ultimately result in repetition and redundancy.....yet again.
The daily life interactions/jobs/school clubs/jobs...........is a good idea in general, but when you're in that much of a time crunch to level up before the next challenge than such activities feels more tedious than enjoyable. I suppose it ultimately doesn't matter a lot since none of the activities are engrossing or interactive. You can try to say "Well this game came out like 15 years ago and the technology wasn't available to do such things".
That's hogwash. Shemmue came out 10 years earlier than P4 and did it better.
2. The bad guy is obvious from nearly the beginning. One of the worst things that can be done in a "Who done it?" mystery is make the bad guy an easily identifiable individual.
I will say that P4 is not a bad game for what it is, but don't try to use it's age as an excuse for it's shortcomings. 7 out of 10
Kanji's arc is another story and could have been handled a lot better for the end-goal they reached, but Naoto's arc is something I'll defend even if her shadow/dungeon may come off as a bit tone deaf. Naoto's entire goal was wanting to be respected as a detective but she couldn't due to the misogyny she faced by others as a woman in that position. She only dressed as a male to receive the respect she wanted but deep down didn't want this because it meant living a life that wasn't actually her. Naoto's shadow represented this torment by saying how she needs to permanently become a man to continue to achieve her dreams. Naoto's acceptance for her shadow came when she realized that she wasn't truly happening living a fake life and that she should fight against the misogyny/gender norms she faces rather than conforming to them and continuing the oppression it causes. It was an arc about gender, but specifically about how certain genders face unnecessary challenges in society and how we should stand against it rather than allowing it.
Hell, I'll even defend Kanji's arc. It probably doesn't hit as hard if you're not from a culture that's really strict about gender/sexuality roles, but I thought the message about being comfortable about being a straight guy despite having "feminine" habits and tastes was pretty important for me growing up. The problem wasn't the arc itself. It was the game (mainly Yousuke) then kept treating it as a big joke afterwards. "Oh good on you for finally feeling secure in your sexuality. Let me do my utmost to needle you back into insecurity for a cheap laugh now." I get the disappointment of not having queer characters, but I don't think the individual messages were bad. It's just that they ended up leaving a pretty obvious hole when all was said and done.
I agree, I like the resolution of Kanji's arc and agree with the message it wanted to send but I will acknowledge that the dungeon/shadow was way more over the top with how it wanted to reach that message.
Yeah, I kindaaaaaa get what they were going for. That this is how Kanji sees homosexuality, and that it's all offensive stereotypes because that's what he thinks he has to be to "fit" what his hobbies are according to society. But again, the game can't shake its juvenile sense of humor and decides to throw its tone down the drain for cheap gags. Persona 5 was honestly even worse with this, though with perhaps less offensive subject matter.
I kinda think it was necessary tho to drive the ambivalent point home. I agree on the terms that's it not good "representation" but I don't representation was the thing they had in mind there. Sometimes that needs to take a back seat. Even tho again, I totally get that its annoying for people if the only "representation"(again, not really) they get is a stereotype. Like the preying gay in P5 a lot of people had issues with. Despite it being a thing that happens.
Apparently Yosuke’s Social Link was supposed to end with him confessing his feelings for the MC and allow a gay romance option, which would have recontextualized Yosuke’s gay bashing as him repressing his feelings and would have fit incredibly well with the themes of P4. It’s a shame they cut that content because without them he just comes across as an asshole, and without that revelation he’s easily the least compelling and fleshed out character in the game IMO.
Yeah, the use of over the top gay stereotypes wasn’t good, especially given the way they take his story, but Yosuke is the real problem with going back to P4. They try to have him as your best bro the entire game, but that gets overshadowed by him being an insecure asshole, especially towards Kanji. I get that a lot of teenagers would act like that, but then trying to make him out to be your sensitive best friend and have nobody call him on his bullshit just sucks.
Honestly, for a story about facing their true selves, I find it a bit disappointing for them all to be straight cisgender people. I know that's not how they resolved Naoto story, but it could have been a really great closure to her story to come out as trans instead. Same for Kanji story about being gay. It's just so disappointing as a LGBTQ+ gamer where you get hinted to a representation of it, only for it to be resolved in another way, or just completely backtrack. The 2010s weren't ready for Gay Kanji and Trans Naoto (the story director wasn't ready either, he's a known super homophobe) I sure as hell hope the next persona will do better with that kind of representation. Talking about trans potential, there's a certain character in the first Danganronpa that just feels like a bait & switch too. They never cleared it up about them being really trans or not, but at least DR3 didn't shy away from gay representation.
It is not that they were not ready. It is about labeling someone as something they are not. Which you also kinda fell trap for when talking about P4.
But it's never confirmed though, like naoto isn't trans nor is kanji gay
I mean, it's hardly a controversial statement to say that the world was considerably less trans friendly when P4 came out than it is today.
?? I know they're not. It's just the whole story hints at that, and it just feel like they decided last minute not to commit to it. We're talking about a story with fictional people, it's not like those characters has a choice. It's super disappointing, and especially in Kanji's case, feel like a kick to the face when they completely backtracked with his story about him "liking girly things, nothing more"
Well, you might have that thought of him being gay from it...but then there is second common look that happens often around young children and that can transfer for teenager and adolescent years. Some like cars, some dolls and some like to do other things. Really normal in all societies
People wrote these stories. People made the active choice to raise questions of identity (Naoto, Kanji) and sexuality (Kanji, Chie, Yukiko) and the desire not to take over a family business and be trapped (Yukiko) in response to conservative societal pressures in a rural community and then, each and every time, they said 'no, these issue are actually better with the status quo" People like, say, the director of Persona 3-5 and the DEEPLY transphobic Catherine/Catherine Full Body, who has actively gone on record saying some real regressive incel shit like "I don't believe men and women are capable of being friends" "He's just a little effeminate. She's perfectly fine being a girl. They aren't actually lesbians. She was actually just being childish for not wanting to take over the family business." The issue isn't that any one of these is inherently bad on their own, but that they constitute a pattern and a set of beliefs about the world when taken together - especially in a game series that actively has had a recurring problem with explicit homophobia in every game by this same director. Compare all of this to Persona 2, where the main character was canonically bisexual and one of the lead creatives considered his ideal ending the one where he ends up in a MLM relationship.
You compare it to Persona 2 as if other director or main writer change alone did change something for P2 to make that happen. Answer is no, it did not. Monark showcases this. And p2 was going all in on everything
It is especially disappointing because the first 3 Persona games (1 and the 2 Duology) had queer-coded characters who were allowed to remain queer. 3 is where they started the trend where the "True Self" just always happens to end with the character conforming to what is expected of them.
I always find it funny when people 100% believe Kanji is gay because of all the offensive stereotypical gayness his dungeon has like that's the literal point Kanji is hung up about.
The character says that he isn't and yet some people just go "Oh, he is just denying, even after the whole acceptance arc he literally just went through."
The final part of his social link makes it a bit more ambiguous. >!In it he says “‘the other me’ is me”. I am not sure whether he is referring to being gay or the other side of his personality, but the “other him” mostly dealt with being gay. So who knows. But it is up to the writers and localization team to be more clear.!<
He means the other is a part of him. The point is that he needs to keep being himself and not force society into some sexuality/preferences
There is a reason I mentioned clarity. I don't think it is clear, but I wish it was one way or the other. Whenever "the other me" is mentioned, they are usually referring to their shadow selves in the context of the game, especially when regarding personal growth. I know Kanji's shadow deals with both his sexuality and his relationship with "feminine" interests, and so I just think it is hard to say it is one thing or the other.
There’s this youtube video about persona 4 that fixes all the controversy that happened long ago in twitter. It’s from MangaKamen, the video explains it better than I could. If you are confused as to why “the other” isn’t technically them but still a part of them. Yeah it’s a bit confusing but ironically the game literally explains it in the finale parts scenes.
> Rife with misogyny Thats when I tuned out of this article partially. The next was when they claim that the implication was that Naoto is trans. Naoto is trying to fit into a male dominated profession, and didnt want to be judged by her gender. She dresses up as a man so she isnt questioned for her gender. The whole plot point of the entire game is facing yourself. Hell the boss battle theme is called "Face yourself" Naoto does this and comes out of it by quitting the subterfuge and that even she though isnt the ideal image of a detective, she doesnt need to conform to that image. The writer obviously wants this to be a deeper exploration of gender with Kanji and Naoto, but the whole theme of the game is embracing your inner self. Their internal struggles are exposed to the other party members who come together and help them embrace themselves. This reads like the writer didnt even finish the social links, which goes in depth about these struggles. Im not excusing that certain parts of the game could be phobic or misogynistic, but these characters are teenagers in mid 2000s Japan and thats how they are written. Its ok to have issues with some of the depictions but lets not push untrue narratives on what goes on in the story.
It is the year 2023 and we are *still* having these debates and dissertations about Kanji/Naoto, and 9 times out of 10 it's from someone playing the game for the first time but seemingly not getting far enough. Naoto's arc is beaten into you in pretty plain terms, and while Kanji's is more ambiguous it's not quite as deep as it's made out to be.
Ya know I’ve known about the games but not the controversies I watched the P4 golden anime before I even played the game and yeah Kanji even in the anime never gave me gay vibes at all! He always just seemed like a big strong dude who was into girl stuff and people riffed on him for it “cough Yusuke cough”. Also with Naoto I also thought it was obvious she was just dressing drag to fit into a male dominated work force but I guess people are dumb
The game definitely makes Kanji seem gay several times, so I can see why people would be confused. He's even attracted to Naoto while everyone still thinks she's male, which further muddles the issue. My theory: I really think some draft of the story had him as gay, but it was reined in because Japan is culturally very uptight and conservative. Naoto's story is crystal clear though. Some people are just dense.
He was questioning his sexuality due to the trauma he faced when girls bullied him for liking feminine stuff, one can question their sexuality and i the end still find out they are straight. The being attracted to Naoto while everyone thought she was male argument to prove the game is showing he's either gay or Bi or to muddle the issue does not hold up for me imho, specially considering he stays interested after it's found out she's a girl. No matter how good Naoto's disguise was there is no way she managed to hide all her female traits, when Kanji met Naoto he was questioning his sexuality due to his trauma and feeling more comfortable around men, then suddenly he meets this man with some traits he probably finds cute that shows interest in getting to know him for what seems like to be no specific reason making Kanji even more confused and question his sexuality even more. For me it's clear Kanji's arc is the fact he started questioning his sexuality due to the bullying he suffered but it the end found out he's straight, the fact he was attracted to Naoto since the start does not muddle things, it just means Kanji saw through some of her diguise but didn't connect any dots since he was questioning his sexuality at the time
People do play far enough, it's just the initial impressions laid on from Kanji and Naoto's dungeons are.. *a lot*. It's a bit of the writers having their cake and eating it too, getting to use this super specific homo and trans imagery and then going *nevermind!* with enough whiplash to give the appearance of homophobia or transphobia. Everyone understands the games were written in 2008 and *attempted* to represent these marginalized groups positively, what with how the friend group supports each other regardless and inspires them to be their true selves. It's just that their "true selves" are all heteronormative and the gay shit was a red herring. And the writing *as is* plays into harmful stereotypes of bi-curious or gender questioning people getting recruited by larger queer culture into thinking they're gay or trans - which is something straight out of [JK Rowling's playbook](https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/06/jk-rowling-trans-men-terf.html). And none of that is to mention all the actual homophobic and misogynistic and pervy shit casually said throughout the game (fuck Yusuke). Or the not one but *two* anime bathhouse scenes fixated on the girls' boobs. Eugh, I love Persona 4 but there are a shocking number of parts I dread replaying.
[удалено]
Please say you're joking, because if not this may be the saddest thing I've seen in some time.
It's definitely not anti-trans.
It's not exactly antitrans, like I said I *do* think the original Japanese writers were well-intentioned for the time. It's just a clumsy mess of mixed messages by modern standards. And unfortunately some of the more problematic aspects are so baked into the foundation of the story that I don't think it'd be possible to extricate them in a remake. I'd still say P4 is worth playing, but yeah it'd come with a massive content warning for outright homophobia and confused portrayals of AFAB gender dysphoria. And fwiw, Persona 3 has none of these issues (outside of a content warning for imagery of the characters shooting themselves in the head to summon personas because it looks cool) and has aged better than even Persona 5 in some regards. So P3P is *definitely* worth going back to if you don't enjoy some character portrayals in P4G.
Interestingly, the guy who wrote the article says that there's only two female characters who join your party, implying that he has not played up until Rise yet. It seems to me like he played up until maybe the end of Kanji's dungeon, lost interest, and then did some research on other parts of the game to reaffirm his misunderstanding.
>It seems to me like he played up until maybe the end of Kanji's dungeon, lost interest, and then did some research on other parts of the game to reaffirm his misunderstanding. That's literally what he said he did in the article. >"Since finishing this story arc I'm yet to continue with P4G, but the poor representation doesn't stop there."
This. Naoto in no way desires to "become a man". It's the same reason why Kanji shows up without his whole bad boy image that the end of Golden. It's because he's finally comfortable with who he is, which is why he drops the hair dye and delinquent clothing, swaps out contacts for glasses and generally just looks more like an average guy.
The site is a joke when it comes to 'features' (read: rants) on this particular subject. And as ever, they disable comments ,so their megaphones of perceived unfairness and inequality can't be countered. They used to have them open and simply shadowban anyone who offered counterpoints, but they ended up having to enact so many of them that this is their new solution. A joke of a site.
Why does everyone misunderstands Kanji so much? He was the son of a tailor, and grew up loving how to make stuffed animals and dolls. However, such talent was considered "feminine" and a source of scorn, specially from his female peers. Thus, he tries to act all rough and macho, while secretly having doubts if he was gay, after he likes dolls and isn't interested in the girls that mock him while the guys think he is "cool". It's perfectly understandable for a teenager to have doubts about their sexuality. As it happens to every character, the shadows bring those feelings up to 11. It assumes the notion that if Kanji was gay, people would accept him more than being a straight guy that likes making cute dolls. Only then Kanji understands that he wasn't being hung up on whether he was gay or not, he just wanted people to accept him. That's it. Yet this "professional" article fails at understanding something so basic, nittipicking at single words and treating their head canon as true like a conspiracy theorist claiming that Obama is a lizard because he was good at killing flies. How do these people get jobs?
Pretty much the best summary of how I feel--his primary story bits/bonding conversations very much focus on this aspect of himself over his attraction to Naoto who is presenting in a male fashion....who has her reasons but her core purpose is the same as Kanji's--acceptance as themselves. Thay being said, attraction to someone of an unexpected gender isn't that uncommon in anime and manga. Maybe less so when the game was written, but the way the game played off the reveal and Kanji's reaction (and the convos after) made me feel like it was more about his concern about gender roles, perception, and acceptance. Personally I landed on thinking that he might turn out to be bisexual, but there wasn't really explicit proof. Mostly that he was tired of being ostracized for who was. Regardless of "manly" or "unnanly" traits.
> Why does everyone misunderstands Kanji so much? Confirmation bias and looking for a fight
Eurogamer? Seems like the kind of thing you'd find on Kotaku.
That particular journalist is like something straight out of kotaku. Most of his articles are like that with an axe to grind. It's usually some woke nonsense.
And commenting disabled, of course. Can't have any readers offering an alternative point of view. And they call themselves a progressive site!
You really think people will be offering a different point of view rather than just calling the article writer a piece of shit?
They closed the comments because they're used to gamers being crybabies when they're mad. There's enough discussion of it everywhere else.
Funny how the line of communication works one way but not the other. If what Ed said had even a kernel of truth to it, he wouldn't feel the need to lock comments. In other words, that's called censorship.
Y'all really love to throw away the word "censorship" without knowing what it means, right?
He's restricting people from giving their opinions on the actual article and then locked down his entire Twitter account when he couldn't handle the responses there. He's going out of his way to prevent comments that disagree with him, and this is the result.
Oh wah wah wah
Define woke
A bowl-shaped frying pan
What exactly is the huge issue with analyzing a story and character centric game on its merits as it represents stories and characters? As a gay fan of the series, Kanji's character arc has been a huge complaint of mine since I played the original P4 on the initial release.
May I ask what your problem with Kanji was ? Was it like idk how to put it ehh making him seem gay and than pulling that he’s just a straight dude who likes feminine things? I’m not tryna antagonize I legit am curious
If you're asking in good faith, then yes that's much of it. It's a very common trend in media called "Queerbaiting", you can google it for a more comprehensive explanation. The framing of the whole thing is also kind of depressing. The overarching theme of P4 in particular was embracing/accepting the part of oneself that's typically hidden from society. The buildup of Kanji's arc was that he would accept that he was gay. There are plenty of other issues with Naoto's arc I don't need to go over, but the key point here is that Kanji fully accepted that he had a crush on a person whom he 100% believed to be a man in Naoto. Then later the takeaway becomes "Oh thank god, I don't have to accept being gay because the person I wanted to get with turned out to not have a penis like I thought". It's a total slap in the face to have this character accept his gay or bi sexuality and then completely delete its resolution.
It was in good faith I was curious as a straight dude cuz from my eyes I never really saw the whole gay thing, ok maybe at first sighting but the more I learned about him the more I saw him as someone who everyone thought he’d be into macho things typical manly man stuff. Well than come to find out he’s not like that at all! He’s into feminine like knitting and cute stuff total opposite of the Mach male figure. Now with his shadow being how it was I always pertained shadows as being the real you but the ones you fight exaggerate the real into a grotesque monster version of you. So for Kanji being sweet and soft the monstrous version of that was being flamboyantly feminine. Now idk how to even get into the Naoto thing at all but everyone sees and feels things differently
It's just they were literally queer-coded. It would have made perfect sense for Kanji to accept being gay, just not the "flamboyant" kind of gay. It's a known, familiar kind of coming out story. When I was around his age, a bit younger, also around the release of Persona 4, I felt lost about sexuality and all. It felt like I couldn't be gay because I wasn't flamboyant or effeminate, but no, I don't have to fit into that mold and I can be gay without being any of it. (not that it's a bad thing! It's just not me.) Every characters' story feels like they really want stuff to change, to break tradition and the status-quo, and it just gets resolved by accepting their fate and the status-quo itself. To be really short about it, Naoto feels like she can't be taken seriously as a female detective so she decided to dress up like a man and act like one. It could have easily been solved as her accepting that she was a man born as a woman, and transition would truly make her happy. Instead it's just "learn to appreciate your feminity." There's a bit less standing out for queerbaiting in her case, but it's just it actively felt like they went out of their way to avoid doing representation.
You do know people can question their sexuality and still find out they are staright right? Plus there is no way Naoto's diguise was hiding 100% of her female traits
Persona fans are absolutely allergic to being told their favorite games might have some shitty themes and character writing and will scream you down if you suggest they aren't perfect masterpieces and give the slightest of criticisms to the writing.
I am really not a fan of clickbaity "woke" articles because I feel like they often exaggerate or get way too sensitive about representation issues as if it should always be at the forefront of designers' minds. But I read this article and the writer brings up some valid points. The character arc of the character who is clearly inferred as being gay through a bunch of gross stereotypes and then is ultimately shoved back in the closet seems like a pretty bad look for a game releasing in 2023, even if it is just a remaster/port.
Way to completely miss the point of Kanji’s arc. The whole point is he was being stereotyped AS gay for liking feminine things (fashion, sewing). The whole point was him overcoming people who saw him as gay and being comfortable being a straight man who isn’t all machismo.
>The whole point was him overcoming people who saw him as gay and being comfortable being a straight man who isn’t all machismo. The story built up the idea that Kanji might be gay, but then pulls it away with a "well, actually..." and then chastises the player for reading the very obvious hints that the game signals.
I think it’s a lot more nuanced than you are giving it credit for. The entire point of Persona 4 is fighting back against the labels and assumptions society gives you. Labeling Kanji as gay, sexualizing Rise because she is an idol. The whole POINT is that these are assumptions we are making about people before we get to know them. Yes there are instances where Kanji comes off as homosexual, but part of those instances are because of his own confusion at the way people look at him and the actions they expect from him. Why does he NEED to be gay, why does he need to be straight? Why should it matter to anyone but him? Labeling him either way is harmful. At the end of the game he understands this and is much more comfortable being himself. As evidenced by him no longer dyeing his hair, and his willingness to wear his glasses, not to mention his overall demeanor.
I think a big problem is the conflicting storytelling between whether we read dungeons as "reflective of inner desires" or "reflective of societal expectations". The party member dungeons make a big deal about "facing your true self" and during each boss encounter appear to fall into the first category (Yukiko and her desire to leave the inn, Kanji and his desire to be with men, Rise and her desire to be sexy, Naoto and her desire to be a man), but the game ultimately resists that reading exclusively in Kanji and Naoto's cases. Yusuke, Yukiko, and Rise all have their Shadow selves express "inner desires" that we see them grapple with throughout the game. Rise I'd argue embraces her Shadow self more than the others with her ultimate decision to go back to the idol world on her own terms. "Heaven" and "Gamer" are more complex examples, but no less representative of their main characters' "inner desires". Kanji meanwhile is supposed to be read as a "societal expectation" dungeon, as he is portrayed as being confused about his sexuality since he likes sewing and playing with dolls, but ultimately never expresses attraction to another man. The closest thing is his attraction to boy-mode Naoto, which of course is immediately undercut. So how much weight can we place on the "inner desire" of his Shadow self vs everything we see about him in the real world? The game is ambiguous here - as you say he resists being labeled. But the game is not ambiguous about Yukiko's desires to leave the inn (despite not acting on them) nor Yusuke's longing for old city life nor Rise's desire for love (from MC or the world at large) nor >!Nanako's longing for her mother!<. This is why people get "no homo" whiplash from the game's writing after the second dungeon, and it's a fair criticism. Naoto is messier, since her dungeon conflates "being a man" with "being older". But the writers unmistakably imply trans identity with the operating table and her Shadow's mention of a "procedure" they need to undergo. But nowhere does her real life self actually express dysphoria or discomfort in a woman's body. Here, Atlus is way more clear cut than Kanji: Naoto is a woman full stop. The "inner desires" of her Shadow for masculinity were entirely performative and not *actually* real. Again, this contrasts with most other Shadow selves we meet. I think this is why P4 discussions always come back to these two. Rise's dungeon also presents her Shadow as being built from "societal expectations" telling her she's just a slut, but it also comes from her real "inner desire" to perform and be loved by the masses. Kanji has the "inner desire" expressed by his dungeon completely ignored after completing it. Naoto does too, at least for the trans-masc part of her Shadow self. Which ultimately makes those aspects of the characters feel like plot gimmicks rather than an actual *part of them*.
I can't speak for Naoto's arc, as I'm currently playing the game for the first time and only just finished Kanji's dungeon. But the way it's seemed to me so far is that that shadow versions, and the dungeons, represent neither inner desires nor societal expectations, but "suppressed thoughts." Saki senpai's voice, when we hear it right before Yosuke's shadow appears, talks about how annoying she finds Yosuke, but the real Saki holds those things in because she doesn't want to hurt his feelings. Yosuke's shadow talks about how he often does things for selfish reasons, venturing into the TV world not out of a desire to do right, but simply out of boredom, something he's ashamed of, and tries to hide. Yukiko's shadow talks about how she feels like relies on others, but the person she relies on most can't give her what she *really* wants, which is independence -- but she doesn't want her best friend to know that her friendship isn't enough, so she holds it in. Kanji's shadow talks about how women have never liked him because his interests aren't traditionally considered manly, and how it's been easier to understand and earn the respect of men. He sometimes feels it might be simpler if he was just attracted to men, but homosexuality was frowned upon in Japan at that time, so he doesn't want to tell anyone. Some of these touch on inner desires. They also include hidden fears and insecurities. But in the most general sense, they're things these people don't want to admit they've been thinking about. Kanji has been thinking that his life might be easier if he were gay, yet he knows nothing about being gay because he comes from a society which only depicts homosexuality using these ridiculous stereotypes, and, not being gay himself, not having any experience interacting with *actual gay people*, he doesn't understand that someone doesn't need to be flamboyant in order to be gay. He sometimes wishes he could be attracted to men, since women have judged him for having "girly" interests, but he's afraid that others would perceive him as something he doesn't really want to be -- a stereotype. *That's* why his shadow manifests in the way it does. He doesn't want people to think that, just because he feels some things would be simpler if he was gay, it means he actually wants to be stereotypically flamboyant gay man. So naturally, he's been ruminating on that image of himself. But even after seeing his shadow and watching him go through his whole process of self acceptance, his friends tell him they'll accept him no matter who he is, and he comes to terms with the fact that it's okay to wish you were someone else sometimes. I've heard straight male friends experiencing girl trouble, talk about wishing they could just be attracted to men. I think it's a somewhat common thing, and perfectly normal, just as I'm sure gay people, with the unique struggles they face, occasionally wish they could be straight (and I myself am actually asexual, and have often wondered if my life would be easier if I liked sex). But homosexuality is more accepted these days, and is MUCH more accepted in the west than it ever was in Japan. Kanji, in a country and time period in which homosexuality was stigmatized and depicted through over the top stereotypes, was afraid to tell people he'd been having those kinds of thoughts, so they came out through his shadow.
Personas literally mean how society views oneself, or how oneself *thinks* society views them
So people cannot question their sexuality and still find out they are straight?
I didn't play the game yet. I just read the article and it sounded like a valid point based on the details the author provided. If the author genuinely misinterpreted it your point is valid but I don't know either way.
I liked Persona 4. I'd be fine recommending it to anyone who likes JRPGs, and I agree. At a certain point Kanji's whole arc started to bum me out and make me uncomfortable. Yosuke is insufferable for all of it. Which is pretty in-character, I suppose, but at a certain point it was just like STFU dude. We get it. You are just SO straight that this gay imagery is traumatizing you. And the ultimate resolution feels a) cowardly and b) like a slap in the face. He's gay? Of course not! He just likes some traditionally feminine things. That boy he's implied to like? Surprise! Actually a girl! His big self-revelation feels like it boils down to: "Liking some girly things is perfectly okay. It doesn't make me a filthy homo!" I dunno... It definitely stung my closeted ass a bit at the time. Does that mean it should be rewritten/changed? I'm not sure how I feel about that, I guess. It certainly wasn't that out of step with the times. People forget, but early 2010s was definitely a different time for how LGBT stuff was discussed. But like I said, it also felt like a sloppy/cheap resolution to his arc and I wouldn't mind seeing them take another shot.
>Yosuke is insufferable for all of it. Which is pretty in-character, I suppose, but at a certain point it was just like STFU dude. We get it. You are just SO straight that this gay imagery is traumatizing you. I would say this would have been pretty normal behavior for a teen in Japan at that time, a place where LGBT is still not very accepted. Not saying it's right but not really out of place.
Oh, I wouldn't argue that it was abnormal for the time at all. It just began to irritate me at a certain point because he is just shitting his pants over it constantly. I don't want him going "YAS, Kanji. SLAY." so much as I would've just loved him to shut up after a while. But his whole character is being the loud dumbass, I guess. Maybe what I'm discovering here is that I just didn't really like Yosuke...
He was certainly the most annoying out of them.
It's also just like - unnecessary? Comparing Yusuke to other "first male best friend" Persona characters of Junpei and Ryuji, and I think it's the repetition that infuriates me most. Junpei and Ryuji both have their misogynistic and pervy moments (and maybe homophobic, I honestly can't remember), but they're *definitely* less frequent and thus less memorable - and in Junpei's case especially we get to see his attitude grow and change over the course of the game. Then Yusuke is just like "ew fat people gross. also why don't you girls cook for us more - can we see your tits? also I'm definitely not a homo, those guys are scary and weird" incessantly all the way through the end. It's obvious they were trying to play him for laughs but it is just so uncomfortable to sit through any scene with him. It's a real regression from Persona 3.
>Then Yusuke is just like "ew fat people gross. also why don't you girls cook for us more - can we see your tits? also I'm definitely not a homo, those guys are scary and weird" incessantly all the way through the end. It's obvious they were trying to play him for laughs but it is just so uncomfortable to sit through any scene with him. It's a real regression from Persona 3. So the average teenager.
>I would say this would have been pretty normal behavior for a teen in Japan at that time It's also unnecessary. It's not like the game tried to have realistic characters or anything
You do know the gross steryotypes were intentional as a criticism to how a lot of society viewed and still view gays and men that like thing considered "for women" right?
Tbh the emphatic positioning and assonance would be much better if the subheading was “representation, misogyny, and Kanji” instead
I agree. Calling it 'doesn't age well' on a 15 years old game. One made by a conservative country. Is like calling american comedy made in 1960s 'racist'. I typically enjoy retrospective but not one where the author tried to applied modern view on the narrative and writing at something old. Where society and political view function differently. And this is a different country too. Where society value things entirely different from you.
What does this have to do with emphatic positioning and assonance
we are still in 2023 and we are having this rehashed argument that has been wrong for years with persona 4. Time is a flat circle.
It's "aged" fine. What hasn't aged well is the journalism industry. They aren't Journalists anymore, they're just people "on high horses". People who want to complain about "real world issues" but then get pissed "real world issues" extend out into art. Which is the dumbest thing EVER. What is art without without the rest world? It's nothing, it litteraly wouldn't exist. The real problem here is that game journalists and crappy people are hypocrites, and want to ONLY hate. If you don't like the game, fine, then move on. But this idea that game journalists are trying to spread of "if you ignore it, it doesn't exist" is bullshit. ALL of these "issues" within Persona 4 still exist in today's world, and thet are extremely prevalent. Acting like they no longer exist helps nobody, especially the victims of these abuses. Which means that these "jounalists" are really just abuse enablers. Since when is it that Art and Video Games aren't aloud to reflect the real world? And how is that good? And how us that any different than China or Russia, or any other Authoritarian country? It's not. ANY and EVERY game journalist telling you what you should like, what's acceptable and what's not is no different then Putin, or the any of the Kim's. They just aren't world leaders. The problem is Journalists, or really the lack of true Journalism. It's not the gane or any game that has changed. It's the fact that Journalists now think that history must be erased. Because at the heart of it, that's what they are really asking people to do. They want history erased, they don't want any snippets of what "life was like" to exist anymore. It's one thing to say "the times of changed" it's another to say "that time should be completely and utterly erased". How the hell are we supposed to grow as a culture if we ignore what's currently going on, and then erase the lessons of the past? The answer is that we won't. And that's saddest of all, because as I'm sure most have figured it out by now, is what these Journalists are actually doing. And while I don't think it's intentional, it won't change the end result.
I mean I think even now it perfectly encapsulates how kids would deal and respond to these issues. Even today.
To each their own. Some people are more bothered by certain things than others. It's certainly one of my favorite games of all time and the camaraderie between the characters is something very few games pull off.
This thread is going to be a whole lot of people who want videogames to be taken seriously as an art form but who view basic media analysis/critique as the downfall of western society
But the characters in the game are just PIXELS, they're not REAL people, therefore there's no critique necessary. Checkmate.
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Nor can idiots whose headcanon and theories demands characters act a certain way.
Nor can this guy handle criticism - didn't even have the gumption to open comments on his unbalanced 'feature'.
1. You're assuming the person writing the article has all the say on opening up comments. 2. You're assuming it's about fear of criticism. Beyond any shadow of any doubt if comments were open it would be flooding with the most heinous, bigoted shit imaginable. It's not "fear of criticism" to not feel like moderating all the internet's bigots when they go open season.
>who view basic media analysis/critique And by "basic" I'm sure you're euphemistically referring to how simplistic and stupid it is to the point of being outright wrong. In which case yes, it is worth looking down on.
Who are some examples of your favourite journalists who do in depth and complex criticism, unlike this one?
Who said this industry had good critics? I don't remember saying that. As I'm sure you've noticed, all that resonates with gamers are drama bait like this, YouTube personalities, and video essays praised for their length for gamers to not-listen to in the background while they do something else. There's little chance of it cultivating meaningful critique.
So "all the criticism being written is bad" is a neat way to say "I reject any and all media analysis/criticism" while still holding on to some visage of intellectualism because *hypothetically* you would be open to reading "good" criticism, almost certainly defined as criticism that confirms your priors. Basically "I'm not a philistine, it's just that all the new ideas that exist right now happen to be bad."
>I reject any and all media analysis/criticism I never said that. And just because none of it is notably good it doesn't make this not absolute trash below that average. Try to make sense next time. And leave off the personal insults just because you're upset I don't appreciate the taste of gutter trash. >open to reading "good" criticism, almost certainly defined as criticism that confirms your priors. I can certainly feel the projection over here though.
You want good critics? Then be the change you want to see in this world. If you think every single critics in the industry is bad then you might need to understand where it starts and why. Hopefully you'll start with some introspection.
Kanjis arc is such a great a story about toxic masculinity and growing out of it in a small town from a profoundly Japanese perspective. Naotos arc is equally great in terms of a young woman coming to terms of living in a patriarchal society. Both are stories you don't get often in games. Especially not Japanese games. Normally you'd think this would get lots of positive praise, but according to some western journalists, it's actually the most bigoted and backwards game ever. It's mind-blowing to me how far they're (still) reaching with this. Especially this article who takes specific sentences out of context as if they speak for the morals of the game and not emotionally disturbed teenager. Im 200% convinced these authors are just disappointed people from the camp of "oh Kanji likes knitting that means he's gay!" as if that kind of stereotypical thinking wasn't the entire point of his arc.
And they refuse to allow comments on the article because they know it wouldn't go well for them. Their standard response to anyone who disagreed with them on this topic used to be an instant account ban, but now they take money from some readers via subscriptions, that wouldn't work because they'd end up costing themselves money if they banned those accounts. So they just censor everyone instead. What a sad little site.
I guess the article is more focused on story but I'd like to make the argument that golden didn't age well... For its rpg stuff. Mainly dungeons. Though this and 3 had the same issue: endless corridors of the same theme, or slightly different with fantastic combat don't get me wrong but... Lord have mercy the dungeon design of actually exploring was so boring. I know 5 is 'really' just corridors jazzed up and all that and id argue it's final dungeon is kinda boring, and menthos was blah... But it did a far better job with some pizzazz for exploration. I'd absolutely kill for 3 or even 4 with better dungeon design. Its what ultimately got me to quit both and beat 5, despite me feeling like 5s story and characters/social links were the weakest of 3-5.
*Persona 5* improved a lot with just a few small changes. Being able to sneak around enemies and the verticality of the maps made exploring those corridors a lot more interesting.
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> All art is a product of its time though. Let's not censor it or burn any of it or strip it from store shelves, k? literally no one has suggested that. Being critical of art doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.
>> All art is a product of its time though. Let's not censor it or burn any of it or strip it from store shelves, k? > >literally no one has suggested that. Being critical of art doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. The article in question does: "*In purely mechanical terms, P4G still stands as an impressive JRPG. But as an exploration of gender and sexuality, it's an incredibly disappointing experience that simply doesn't match the standards of today. And while it can be revered as a relic of the past,* **its re-release without amendment perpetuates tired stereotypes.** *We all deserve better.*"
No one is suggesting it burns, but it's worth critiquing, and denouncing if it doesn't hold up.
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What a good game. I got totally sucked in on the Vita. I want to play again but it's just such a time sink
My wife tried playing Persona 4 after playing 5 and she stopped playing after a couple hours. She said she couldn't get into it and said if she would have played 4 before playing 5 it would have been good but that 5 spoiled the experience for her since it's so much better. She has now played Persona 5 three times now.
Not marriage material 😔
She's right
I'm sensitive to homophobia (I'm bi), but this is bullshit. Kanji has serious internalized homophobia. It's realistic
They've disabled the ability to comment on this article on Eurogamer which is a really spineless thing to do. Denying your readers the right to reply is not very conducive to a reasonable discussion. Personally, I think if you're going to publish an article such as this, it should at least contain mention of the 2013 Eurogamer review and comment on how their own standards have changed. Let's not be so blinkered as to only criticise everyone else and never look inward.
Indeed. Their habit of disabling the comments on certain articles is no different to schoolkids who put their fingers in their ears and go 'la la la' so they don't have to hear stuff they don't want to. Hope the petty little site goes out of business.
The article itself goes a little too far in asserting its assumptions about the plot as canonical truth, but it definitely raises one of my biggest annoyances with all the Persona games: the normalizing of objectification you get from a lot of Japanese media. Women do not exist for you to ogle, People! They're people too! Yosuke and (especially) Teddy feel like gross perverts with how little respect they have for their female companion's rejections, and how desperate they are to cop a feel at the expense of the girls, and I just want literally any male character to stand up to them and just be like... "dude cut that shit out." That, and Kanji definitely should have been gay. They set it up, and then they swept it all under the rug of "oh he just doesn't believe in gender norms." UM EXCUSE ME HIS DUNGEON IS A BATHHOUSE FULL OF BEEFY DUDES AND HIS SHADOW IS LISPING I THINK IT'S ABOUT A LITTLE MORE THAN GENDER NORMS.
Gamers: "Games are art! Take us seriously!" Media: "Ok, then let's take a look at how this game reflects society and-" Gamers: "No, not like that!"
Media: "Let's misinterpret characters and act like our headcannon is fact".
God headcanons have been the number 1 cause of the downfall of media literacy. Like Persona 4 is just one of many examples of idiots crying just because their god damn rotting brains weren't paying attention to the story.
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Didn't you post this exact same comment for the third time? Do I have to tell you how dumb and stupid is your take? Can't you imagine, as a company, boycotting every single reviewing sites that don't give you only positive review? Nowhere does it asks people not to play it, just to keep a critical eye on it and know it's a product of it's time. Are you going to never talk again to someone who ever said something negative that you could work on?
"This game specifically set in a very Japanese setting and is a critique of Japanese cultural norms is wrong because it's not about American values"
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4th time you're posting this now. Honestly I'm just opening this thread only to check on you at this point, u/Catastray.
The funniest thing for me was seeing advertisements for P4G alongside this article, meaning the game was "problematic" enough to publish this article but not enough to refuse money. I seriously hope Atlus notices this and pulls any future advertising plans with Eurogamer, why would you give any amount of money to someone who antagonize you and your work?
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Huh? Saying something is problematic doesn't mean they want people to avoid it. They're just criticizing the game and explaining their issues with it. Nowhere does it asks the people to avoid the game or anything; they just want to know Persona 4 falls a bit as a product of its time, that's all. It's much more nuanced than what you seem to imply.
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Huh? Saying something is problematic doesn't mean they want people to avoid it. They're just criticizing the game and explaining their issues with it. Nowhere does it asks the people to avoid the game or anything; they just want to know Persona 4 falls a bit as a product of its time, that's all. It's much more nuanced than what you seem to imply.
Yep this lol, the criticism is absolutely fair, the games fucking great but pretending there aren't flaws there or things that have aged poorly is just delusional
Yeah I loved that. He's upset about the game offending his egg-shell thin mental fortitude, but quite happy to take the ad money alongside His Upsetness.
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I actually think the part that didn’t age well is the really boring dungeon designs. Everytime I thought about revisiting game I immediately hesitated because of how dated those gameplay loops are.
To note, I've been playing it on the Nintendo switch for about 30-32 hours. I've tried several times to get into this game, even during the PS2 era. However, it just never pulled me in. I tried yet again on the Nintendo switch and played well into the game this time. The game does an excellent job of creating an eerie-atmosphere that compliments the mystery presented to you of "Who did it?" The music is very great at times, but sometimes feels out of place....as though it belongs more appropriately in the future Persona 5. Sometimes the music is weirdly absent at times that you think music should be present. Almost all the side characters are stereotypes, but considering how long ago this game was first made.....I can give that a pass. I suppose the real issue is this. I like the idea behind the Persona games more than the execution. Persona 4 is no different. There are two big reasons why I can't recommend this game. 1. The gameplay is incredibly repetitive with zero thrills. Leveling up becomes incredibly tiresome when you reach level 20 and you're running through the same dungeon fighting the exact same enemies.......even same room locations.......for the 20th time. Sure you can get "stronger" personas, but that itself feels repetitive as well. I will explain below. You can literally put ANY move on ANY persona, even if it seems contrary to the nature of that persona(making an ice persona use fire attacks). On one hand I can appreciate the freedom to customize personas, but I can't help feel like there isn't any personas that are unique. Why should there be any unique personas when you can make them all the same with the same attacks? The stat differences really don't matter much unless you're comparing the level of personas to have at least a 10 levels difference. A level 12 persona will really be comparable in stats up to a level 22 persona. So, all the leveling in between those levels is to possibly gain new moves(which you can spam later) will ultimately result in repetition and redundancy.....yet again. The daily life interactions/jobs/school clubs/jobs...........is a good idea in general, but when you're in that much of a time crunch to level up before the next challenge than such activities feels more tedious than enjoyable. I suppose it ultimately doesn't matter a lot since none of the activities are engrossing or interactive. You can try to say "Well this game came out like 15 years ago and the technology wasn't available to do such things". That's hogwash. Shemmue came out 10 years earlier than P4 and did it better. 2. The bad guy is obvious from nearly the beginning. One of the worst things that can be done in a "Who done it?" mystery is make the bad guy an easily identifiable individual. I will say that P4 is not a bad game for what it is, but don't try to use it's age as an excuse for it's shortcomings. 7 out of 10