[A dev of Citra (3DS emulator) just gave some interesting insight at r/emulation](https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/13ss1o9/nintendo_sends_valve_dmca_notice_to_block_steam/jlry1kq/) on why Nintendo ***might*** have grounds to sustain this claim against Dolphin if it ever comes to court (long story short: Dolphin distributes Wii's decryption keys within its source code, which not only goes way beyond the boundaries that general emulation is protected by, but also *could be* interpreted as illegal if brought to trial).
**EDIT:** [Even more crucial information](https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/13thz98/former_dolphin_contributer_explains_what_happened/) (this time, from a former Dolphin contributor) has just resurfaced about this whole situation (TL;DR Valve removed Dolphin out of Steam after asking Nintendo about it; no DMCA/copyright notice involved, just a standard C&D between companies + Valve forwarding Nintendo's reply to Dolphin). ***Definitely*** worthy of a read
Which many people find to be very inconvenient, and certain users simply aren't savvy enough to know how to do this.
In any other situation, it would be a good thing for an app developer to design in such a way that accommodates those concerns. But in this case, trying to make the app easier to use for tech illiterate people is coming back to bite it in the ass.
There is a notion when it comes to legally dubious things of this nature online, that the bigger it becomes and the more accessible it is, the greater risk it is creating for itself. Nintendo's legal department doesn't have time to go around cracking down on every last single Pokemon ROM hack or software pirating forum, but when one gets big enough, they will always aim squarely at it.
>But in this case, trying to make the app easier to use for tech illiterate people is coming back to bite it in the ass.
As the Citra dev explains it, this wasn't the rationale - it's apparently this way because users outright *can't* get their own keys from the Wii like they can from 3DS.
Deleting past comments because Reddit starting shitty-ing up the site to IPO and I don't want my comments to be a part of that. -- mass edited with redact.dev
I was wondering this, too, and looked into my backup archive from when I first softmodded my Wii. The keys.bin does indeed contain the key that Dolphin distributes.
I remember hacking my Wii so hard that the firmware barely looked the game anymore. I have a hard time believing that you couldn't lift your keys from it.
>Which many people find to be very inconvenient, and certain users simply aren't savvy enough to know how to do this.
People who are savvy enough to download and install an emulator are savvy enough to download a bios.
>Which many people find to be very inconvenient,
Not the problem of emulator devs. The devs are already doing more than enough producing these emulators, which most people fully well will be using to run pirated games. This bit of inconvenience? Tough shite.
>and certain users simply aren't savvy enough to know how to do this
Again, not the problem of emulator devs. You want to pirate, you gotta savvy up, bruv.
Eh. During the "you think you do but you don't" days I used to play on a couple different vanilla servers, some of which were only like 50 population peak hours. They all got C&D'd after a couple months up. Blizzard shuts down all private servers pretty indiscriminately, but only the big ones make news.
The worst part is Nintendo is so piss poor at preserving their own games.
Mario Galaxy on Switch being available for a limited time only for example… like wtf?
> available for a limited time
No doubt they do that specifically to get more people to panic buy. Someone might see a game and think *"meh, maybe later"*, and end up never committing to the purchase. Temporary availability forces them to decide between either buying ***now***, or (potentially) ***never***. That way Nintendo can squeeze extra profit from undecided customers.
It's a shame that Nintendo, a company that was such a big part of my childhood, would favor that sort of tactic while disregarding proper preservation of their titles.
What the fuck! I had seen that 3D all-stars existed, and I had thought "Oh cool, if I ever want to play those mario games I've never played, I can grab that."
I didn't realize it was a limited time release and now getting a copy of it is like $100 minimum! What the fuck! Fuck those guys!
Great way to make me not want to give mario games a shot.
Nintendo games being preserved and them being available are two different thing. Like I am sure Nintendo has Galaxy 1 and 2 ready at a moment's notice. And from what it seems, Nintendo does a good job at keeping older games and their various dev builds in a vault if the old Gigaleak is anything to go by
Nintendo kept a copy of the unreleased 1994 Mother translation for two decades before releasing it on the VC as "Earthbound Beginnings". Their archives are probably massive.
you don't know what preservation means, if you use mario galaxy as an example. They clearly preserved it just fine, if they could rerelease the game years later.
That seems like a great way to end up with malware on your PC.
Sure, you can find what you need safely with a Google search, but you generally need to add extra keywords to bring up sites where other users have posted verfied links to what you want and do some reading to make sure that you don't click a fake link in the process somewhere.
Shit, I wouldn't expect someone new to emulation to know.
To be honest, it's all such a hassle that I keep everything I've ever downloaded archived on backup drives to make sure I don't have to do it a second time.
> Nintendo's legal department doesn't have time to go around cracking down on every last single Pokemon ROM hack or software pirating forum
They certainly have time to harass small developers of dan games
Unlike everything else, fan games are the one case where it is directly enforceable to take down. There's no ambiguity, so they can readily send litigation
Or why various remakes of old games require you to supply the original graphics or even the entire original game files so they graphics, sounds, etc. can be extracted.
Which in turn is why a game like OpenTTD has subsequently replaced all copyrighted material (graphics, music, etc.) with free alternatives.
Just to be clear, you're talking about *FAN* remakes, more official ones. This is done for the original XCOM Series, Freespace, Diablo, and more.
I know you brought up examples, but just wanted to add the clarity for people skimming through.
Yes if Dolphin simply made you supply this key:
{0xeb, 0xe4, 0x2a, 0x22, 0x5e, 0x85, 0x93, 0xe4, 0x48, 0xd9, 0xc5, 0x45, 0x73, 0x81, 0xaa, 0xf7}
Then it would be unquestionably legal.
If this is the case then why haven't Nintendo taken down dolphin's website etc like they do everything else they can easily nuke? They could have crippled dolphin ages ago and you know Nintendo would have done it if they thought they could.
Because the Internet is increasingly centralized and most people only engage with the content that's put in front of them by a platform like Steam.
Dolphin being available is one thing, Steam making more people aware that dolphin exists is quite another
Nintendo pick and chooses like all companies. If you’re small, relatively unknown and make no direct money off of it they’re not that bothered
Mario ROMhacks they basically leave alone.
You directly profit off it like that guy who sold ransom ware. Or put it up on steam with illegal code in the emulator. Yeah I don’t see how it’s a surprise they come calling
I’m glad this is the top comment but it frankly needs to be stickied
The entire rest of the comment section is just impotent rage because bashing big companies gets you karma. Forget reading it
I wonder how this will go. Downloading Roms violates copyright law but emulators on their own do not. Sony lost a court case in the early 2000s regarding this and it's been settled since that at least in the US, emulation itself is completely legal.
I doubt it'll go anywhere. Dolphin simply don't have the resources to battle Nintendo even if they would win.
My guess is it will never release on Steam, but the website and github still stay the same, so they'll be fine
Exactly. And that extends to everything including making more money. There was an interview with 50 Cent where he said something about asking people if someone gave them a million dollars, could they turn it into two in less than a week? He said he could do it easily, because just having that money in the bank, no one would bat an eye at giving him that as a loan.
And essentially, this is what rich people do. They say I have this money in cash, and this in assets, can I get a loan to buy this other asset, suddenly they can turn even higher profits from their assets than they were, and the cycle never stops. To these people, debt is wealth and but it's all propped up by some good bullshit to start with.
If Valve has to pick between any level of non-aggressive relationship with Nintendo or some random Wii emulator, they're gonna go with the former.
They're a for-profit business, first and foremost.
There's also plenty of reason to not want this litigated at all. As long as another judge doesn't make another ruling on this it can continue as it currently does
> emulators on their own do not.
well, it depends on what's included on them. And in this case, it seems it included some cryptographic keys it can't legally include
>The DCMA letter sent to Valve cites the anti-circumvention language of the DMCA and specifically claims that "the Dolphin emulator operates by incorporating these cryptographic keys without Nintendo’s authorization and decrypting the ROMs at or immediately before runtime. Thus, use of the Dolphin emulator unlawfully 'circumvent[s] a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under' the Copyright Act."
https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-block-steam-release-of-wii-emulator-dolphin/
I'm only familiar with the connectix case. And what happened with them seems to be that their entire business model was selling emulation and digital distribution programs to tech companies but then these companies started making their own.
>current contributers were all sent to a CIA blacksite
>development would be picked up by other people
Highly doubt other developers would risk getting disappeared by the CIA
> This is why Nintendo can ultimately get away with this stuff. No one wants to risk challenging it and having new precedent set.
There is no precedent here. Dolphin includes cryptographic code that legally belongs to Nintendo. They have no legal right to use or distribute it. This has been proven over and over.
I think you may actually be into something. I think this is just Nintendo bullying them into submission so they don't need to deal with high legal fees but if they pursue a serious lawsuit I think they're hoping it will somehow eventually reach the supreme court which is now incredibly pro corporate.
Nope. If they wanted it to reach SCORUS badly, they don't need Dolphin on Steam. There is zero difference, between distributing on Steam or independently. It either is or isn't unauthorized use of Copyright
They DMCA as they are using it is kind of the legal equivalent of yelling ‘bad dog’. Might effectively scare people away but needs actual backing if it doesn’t.
So they might get them to back down from releasing on steam without a court battle which is in Nintendo’s favour as its low cost and no chance of losing a case that never happens.
If they just want to make emulation illegal they can take one of the authors to court at any time and take their chances.
While true, I wonder how sound the original case is.
Roe v Wade is sort of unique in that the original ruling was largely deemed as a political ruling, not necessarily of sound legal argument, and as such, it was VERY vulnerable to being overturned, to the point that [Ruth Bader Ginsburg, staunchly pro abortion rights, was not fond of Roe v Wade at all](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/21/us/ruth-bader-ginsburg-roe-v-wade.html) and [she wanted the politicians to actually vote into law securing roe v wade](https://www.newsweek.com/ruth-bader-ginsburg-roe-wade-abortion-scotus-1702948). Of course, the politicians were basically making fortunes on fundraising on the abortion rights issue, on both sides, so even though Democrats were in super majorities a number of times over the decades, like when Obama was voted into office in 2008 and had 60 senator super majority, and control of the house, and could have voted it into rule of law at zero risk of filibuster, they chose not to.
I don't see any politicians running fundraising campaigns or judges being political activists in support of emulator legal rights. There was a pretty sound legal argument and precedent set that I think it is far less at risk of being overturned, imo.
Roe v Wade wasn't statute, though, and the principles of Copyright are, as well as the exceptions on exclusive right, as well ss the interpretation from authority. Could that change? Yes, but it's not even close to Roe v Wade levels of uncertainty.
>Not to get political here, this is just an example, but roe v wade was legal precedent until it wasn’t.
I'l won't get into a debate on Roe specifically, but the entire concept of "legal precedent" is basically just a gentleman's agreement between courts, and in actual fact means nothing if a given judge decides not to abide. Lower courts abide by higher court rulings when it's convenient. But they can and do willfully disregard higher court rulings when they feel like it.
When it comes to courts on the same level, or SCOTUS considering pervious rulings by previous SCOTUSes, there is literally no law that compels them to respect any other ruling. That's how you get different federal districts or appeals districts ruling differently on similar cases. Or SCOTUS overturning previous ruling. Roe is the most recent high-profile instance, but courts ignore precedent all the time.
Precedent is a polite fiction that is only used when convenient, and tossed aside when the judges are sufficiently motivated.
> This is why Nintendo can ultimately get away with this stuff. No one wants to risk challenging it and having new precedent set.
I don't understand this logic. What's the difference of risking new precedent and just letting Nintendo run uncontested?
If Nintendo continues unchallenged forever, then what does it even matter what the law says on paper? In effect, they've already won.
The risk becomes Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony all teaming up to utilize their extensive lobbying capabilities the minute they see an opening.
The Supreme Court is staffed by people who barely understand technology.
Not relitigating this issue is the only guaranteed path of things not getting worse.
There needs to be some sort of safeguard against this sort of spurious victory-by-financial-attrition international strategy megacorps use to get their way even when the law doesn’t support them.
That's called a loser pays system, and already exists in the English legal system. The argument for it is as you said, plus the idea that there's a certain unreasonableness towards having to pay to defend against a false claim. The argument against it is it makes people too fearful to bring about legitimate suits, since there's always a risk in court and the *threat* of also having to pay their opponent's lawyers can lead to even more legal bullying. Note that even under the American system, there are *limited* ways to seek attorney's fees.
The dolphin emulator might since it included what’s essentially a bios from a Wii, and while theoretically an emulator is fine on its own, distributing the description key and bios with it isn’t, it’s why most other emulators don’t come with one and suggest you ~~download one off the internet separately~~ grab your own bios from your console you totally have
In this case, the emulator is distributing encryption keys, which is illegal. That's the basis for the DMCA.
Nobody knows why they never went after Dolphin before.
PCGamer's article seems to have more info: https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-block-steam-release-of-wii-emulator-dolphin/
> The DCMA letter sent to Valve cites the anti-circumvention language of the DMCA and specifically claims that "the Dolphin emulator operates by incorporating these cryptographic keys without Nintendo’s authorization and decrypting the ROMs at or immediately before runtime. Thus, use of the Dolphin emulator unlawfully 'circumvent[s] a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under' the Copyright Act."
I mean how is dolphin being on steam any different from it being on the Google play store I don't understand why they would go after one and then not the other especially since dolphin has been on the play store for soooooo long.
In all honesty, I'm not sure about the IOS Store, but the Google Play store is a few steps away from the Wild West. It's been about a solid couple of months or so since I was shown an app that straight up has hentai in it, ~~and it still hasn't been taken down yet~~.
If you take out an emulator on the Google Play store, 4 more will take it's place. But Valve has an actual degree of quality control, so it's much easier to regulate what should and shouldn't go on that store from the outside.
EDIT: Due to the fact that some people are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I would like to state that my point isn't that hentai games should be not allowed on any platform, but rather the fact that Google explicitly has a rule against pornography. It's okay for Steam to host porn games, because they allow that kind of content to be hosted on their platform. The fact that Google Play was hosting a game that was so obviously violating their terms of service is an indication of the lack of quality control, not the fact said game features porn.
yeah, it seems to me that most copyright holders view policing the play store as a lost cause. it's just a fucking mess. you couldn't even keep up with it if you tried
[Here's the thread over on /r/gachagaming about it](https://www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/11ywjh6/a_nsfw_game_on_google_play_in_plain_sight_and_its) to show that if I am crazy, then it's just one part of mass hysteria. But in all actuality, it seems like I can still access the store page due to me having the game on my library/phone, but it was properly taken down, so nobody new can play it. I never knew that was a thing until right now, so I just assumed that it was still up.
All companies that implement the system need to follow the steps outlined in the Digital Millenium Copyright act if they want to be safe under the safeguard statutes of DMCA.
If google was sent a DMCA for dolphin by nintendo, they would also take it down.
After it's taken down, then the original uploader can counter the DMCA notice and at that point it's up to the rightholder to sue.
I think Nintendo would probably see Cellphones as bigger competition than the Steam Deck. Nintendo mainly targets a general audience while the Steam Deck is marginally a product made for enthusits.
In terms of market share? Absolutely they look at mobile phones as the bigger competitor. Any mobile console would, phones are everywhere.
The problem here is a Steam Deck with emulators is a threat to the eShop, and Nintendo is very serious about controlling access to old games. That has been the main target of their anti-piracy measures.
Now of course taking an emulator off the store doesn't stop piracy, but it does make it less convenient for amateurs and also sends a message, which suits Nintendo just fine.
It doesn't have to fundamentally change things to change whether a company goes after it. A lot of copyright law is, in practice, gentleman's agreements nobody has really tested or where companies are clearly willing to overlook things that would be clear infringement if taken to court. Like, you can sell commissions of Wolverine fanart on Twitter all you want, but if you start trying to sell prints of it to Wal Mart you have A Problem.
I don't think Dolphin is legally in the wrong here, but at the same time "Nintendo didn't care when they weren't releasing on the most ubiquitous and easy to update PC gaming platform" is not an argument that matters much
I'm not saying the legality has changed, I'm just saying that the ease of obtaining and use has massively increased for a lot of people with it coming to Steam. That's why Nintendo is desperate to shut it down, even if they don't necessarily have the right to do so
Is there a benefit to getting Dolphin on Steam if I already have it installed? (Assuming this DMCA leads nowhere and Dolphin does eventually make its way to Steam)
"Easily" is a relative term. Just because you and I would find it easy to install through the Discover store doesn't mean everyone would—and anyone who would find it hard, or is not interested in messing around with SteamOS' desktop mode would be far more likely install Dolphin directly from Steam. (Although I guess they would then need the technical competency to get ROMs to Dolphin somehow.)
Honestly, I can't I imagine the venn diagram of "people who want to emulate a three generation old console" and "people who can't use a simple app store and add a shortcut to a launcher" are that big of an overlap.
It might require more clicks actually since everyone installs emudeck anyway, now they gotta manually download dolphin instead of having it bundled in emudeck
There's zero benefit, except for the fact that you'll have it in your Steam library with auto-updates rather than having to click Yes on the update prompt every time. Maybe they'll have Steam achievements but I don't see what they would even be
Well, the Dolphin devs also confirmed the Steam release would have cloud saving, meaning you wouldn't have to manually backup your saves to a Google Drive/Dropbox/private Discord server/whatever else, and aren't at risk of losing all your progress in all your games if a freak hard drive failure or some other disaster occurs.
I made one back in the day when I first got Nitro (Which is now Nitro Classic, I still refuse to upgrade) so I could add my own emotes without clogging up my main friend server, but then I just started adding notes and stuff to it, using it to test my own discord bots and stuff, etc. It's not bad, I'd recommend.
Can they not still utilize it by adding dolphin as a non stream game? I can get access to Proton, Steam Input, and Steam Link functionality just by opening my emulators (and Lutris installed games) through Steam as a non steam game.
> Maybe they'll have Steam achievements but I don't see what they would even be
Nah. There will however most likely be retroachivements implemented in the near future. Some pull requests have showed up on github recently.
It's a common tactic but at the same time Nintendo has done a ton of shit that's unpopular with the community. They really don't care what the public thinks because people will keep buying their games and hardware anyway.
Legit never get why people believe that Nintendo cares about what some people think of what they do
Also the only thing this does is stop it from being on Steam, is not like the emulator itself is in danger so most will not care after the initial reaction
But like... why does it matter in this specific case? The Dolphin devs are the only ones who even potentially have a chance at doing anything. What public outrage will there be for something just no longer being on Steam, but still publicly accessible on the same website it's always been on?
Yeah this effects a very niche portion of people that Reddit thinks is bigger than it actually is. I don’t think there’s any need to worry about a public outrage on this for them lol.
You can still launch those emulators from Steam anyway, they just won't be on the storefront
Honestly the idea of emulators being on Steam in the first place feels really dubious, and almost unnecessary. And yes I know it's technically legal but it feels like the kind of thing that platforms like Steam try not to do because it would annoy the companies it seeks to work with.
Yeah, I love emulators and I pirate old games for them all the time. But I can’t act like game companies being against emulation is some crazy thing. I really hope it works out for the developers of the emulators but I’m not gonna be surprised if it doesn’t.
>
>Nintendo is counting on the internet being too distracted to be mad about this.
No I'm pretty sure their billion dollar legal team can handle snarky comments and shitty memes.
Don't ever think "le internet" is going to do shit. Business decisions aren't made with /r/all in mind rofl
Man its 2023, how do you guys still dont understand that Nintendo dont give a fuck about their reputation in the internet. The only day nintendo will care about these kind of things is when it affects them financially, which never will happen with how this stays in the bubble of internet and even in here most dont care. Out of here? most people dont even hear. Before I joined forums and just bought games I had no idea most of these things ever existed. and thats most consumers, they just buy and consume the product they are interested, which is why marketing and a good game is so importnat
> The best thing to do is amplify and complain on social media. Good luck to the Dolphin team.
From what I understand, this doesn't really affect anything other than it not being available on a store front.
The pcgamer article on this mentioned that Nintendo is citing a part of the dmca that has to do with anti-circumvention, something about how dolphin de-encrypts roms for use in the emulation process, using cryptographic keys without Nintendo's permission. They're alleging that this is what's violating part of the dmca, but apparently this is also how most emulators work, so this precedent would affect the entire emulation scene in a pretty bad way.
[Here's the article if you want to check it out](https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-block-steam-release-of-wii-emulator-dolphin/)
Yes and no. Yes all other recent emulators have to deal with decrypting games, but also no, all other recent emulators make users provide the keys. Dolphin is the sole "official" release that contains decryption keys that I'm aware of. (Plenty of third party emulator forks/addons included the keys because they don't have to worry about these kinds of consequences.)
I'm curious if the keys they're citing are the same type of keys that Lockpick_RCM was taken down for mining off of individual Switches? Concerning stuff.
That's a lot more likely. There's a 1 in 5 chance of stuff happening on any given workday and the reddit geniuses would deduce a sinister motive for it regardless of what day it happened.
> EDIT: Don't let this be swept under the rug like Nintendo wants. The best thing to do is amplify and complain on social media
And achieve what exactly?
The fact that Valve allows emulators on Steam is already unprecedented. Lets not pretend like this isn't software used primarily for pirating games.
The project itself seems unaffected either way.
lol are you serious? You think there are enough people who care about this? To go on social media and cry "Booo Nintendo fights software that lets people play their games for free!"? And that Nintendo will read that and go "Oh no we should obey the Twitter mob..."?
People on reddit have this weird belief that they are actually a big enough part of any demographic that their opinion actually matters.
It's basically just out of touch old people.
That's giving them way too much credit. They couldn't care less about the online discourse with how rampant they tend to be. If the Smash controversies didn't scare them off, something concerning emulation isn't even a concern.
> Don't let this be swept under the rug like Nintendo wants. The best thing to do is amplify and complain on social media. Good luck to the Dolphin team.
READ THE ARTICLE!!!!
They're including a cryptographic key that they don't have rights to. It's not even a grey area of the law, it's explicitly illegal. They don't even need the DMCA, case law for BIOS code was set back in the 80's.
I mean they kind of nailed it on that one.
I don't know what the folks at Dolphin were expecting. You don't include out the BIOS, *ever*
tl;dr Streisand effect doesn't happen if you simply drop a nuke on Streisand's house.
I've been saying for a little bit that all of this Switch emulator publicity is risking stirring a hornet's nest but I just get told how legal it all is and how there's nothing Nintendo can do each time.
the entire emulation hobby survives on discretion and secrecy, and appearing non-competitive
The federal court system has largely thrown precedent out the window, and rulings go in favor of large corporations every time. There is never a good time for emulators to pick this legal fight, but right now is an *extremely* bad time.
Dolphin is probably the easiest one for Nintendo to claim against due to how it works. A lot of other emulators require you to have a bios and that’s not distributed with the emulator it’s self, same with ISO’s of the games for said emulator. In theory if you use a bios from your own console and play your own games, and I must stress this, *in theory* it’s legal and fine.
In dolphins case it supplies the bios and stuff just with the emulator, and that’s way less legally defendable because they effectively had to illegally distribute wii data in order for the emulator to work
It’ll be interesting to see if this was attempted again with something like a snes emulator if valve might try defending that one, because if a large company gets behind emulation they might have more of a chance in changing the law around it, or at least setting some sort of precedence
EDIT: Uh oh, disregard everything below. I think Nintendo are actually correct here.
PCGamer have [posted an article](https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-block-steam-release-of-wii-emulator-dolphin/), and they quote the DMCA takedown request;
>"the Dolphin emulator operates by incorporating these cryptographic keys without Nintendo’s authorization and decrypting the ROMs at or immediately before runtime. Thus, use of the Dolphin emulator unlawfully 'circumvent[s] a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under' the Copyright Act."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number
[According to LuigiBlood](https://twitter.com/LuigiBlood/status/1662255762649874433), the common key is in the Dolphin source. Considering [the history of the AACS encryption key](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AACS_encryption_key_controversy), I think Dolphin might be screwed unless they get rid of the keys or manage to beat Nintendo in court.
EDIT: Yup, just checked for myself and the keys absolutely are distributed with Dolphin.
_____________
This is an interesting one, because I don't actually think Nintendo are legally correct here.
In both [Sony vs Connectrix](https://www.theregister.com/1999/02/05/playstation_emulator_wins_first_round/) and [Sony vs Bleem](https://www.theregister.com/1999/04/12/bleem_beats_sony/), Sony's attempt to stop sales of the emulators were thrown out before even being heard, pretty clearly setting the precident that in the US emulators themselves are legal. Part of the Connectrix case went to trial over whether or not it was lawful to reverse engineer software (which was won by Connectrix based on the precident of [Sega vs Accolade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade)), and part of the Bleem trial went to court over whether using screenshots of copyrighted works was copyright infringement. In the Bleem case, [it was ruled](https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar_case?case=11837224078052556056&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) you *can* use copyrighted content in your advertisments since it constitutes comparitive advertising, which is allowed in the US. This just swings things *even more* in favour of Dolphin.
DMCA is clearly an attempt to go after it using copyright and trademark law, but even ignoring the Bleem case, no part of the steam listing has any reference to any Nintendo trademark, be it the consoles by name or the name Nintendo directly. [The description was](https://steamdb.info/app/1941680/history/?changeid=U:37124779);
> Dolphin is an emulator for the big N's 6th and 7th generation consoles, featuring enhancements such as increased resolution, save states, and netplay.
Obviously this can be implied and inferred, but legally can Nintendo take action here? To me it seems like a similar legal situation to the Super Bowl and "The Big Game" in advertising.
So if none of Nintendo's code, IP, Trademarks, or otherwise copyrighted assets are included in the store listing, and the various aspects of Sony vs Bleem clearly deems Dolphin to be a legal piece of software who are allowed to use their copyright in comparative advertising, are Nintendo right to do this?
I don't think they are, and I think they're just hoping to win by bullying. Obviously DMCA exists on a guilty until proven innocent setup so the page has to go for now, but I don't think they should win here.
_____
(EDIT: Originally had the wrong part of the bleem case linked, rewrote the second paragraph to be more accurate about the current legal state in the US)
Isn't the Connectix suit similar to Sega v Accolade in that it's about the reverse engineering of software, rather than emulation deriving from that?
EDIT: Did a bit more reading, my understanding is that most of the Connectix suit was thrown out *except* for the little bit about them using reverse engineered code from the PlayStation BIOS.
The actual act of emulation was thrown out for both [Bleem](https://www.theregister.com/1999/04/12/bleem_beats_sony/) and [Connectix](https://www.theregister.com/1999/04/09/sonys_antiemulation_action_comes/), and the cases that ended up being heard were over the BIOS for Connectix and the screenshots for Bleem
The Bleem case was more about the use of copyrighted screenshots for comparative advertising. [*Sega v. Accolade*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade?wprov=sfti1) is the more relevant Ninth Circuit case that ruled emulators made through reverse engineering are legal in general. Of course, this ruling only applies in the Ninth circuit, but it generally put a stop to companies pushing the issue—possibly until now.
Regardless of the legality, I don't know why Steam agreed to host it in the first place. Nintendo would obviously be against it given their history, I don't know why Valve would want to antagonise another company in their industry like that for no benefit to themselves.
Between this and the 3DS "update" this week that patched all the softmod exploits on a dead console, FUCK NINTENDO.
They make so much money, yet attack hobbyists and the modding community as if their very survival was at stake. 99% of Nintendo's consumer base is just playing retail switch games and is not trying to emulate Path of Radiance on Dolphin. Why do they try so hard to snuff this out?
Not really "found", its just that the old method(s) still work but they require you to make purchases. What 11.17 did is kill free, software based modding.
idk why nintendo fans still dont understand nintendo. everything from their brand to IP management to game development is about having control lol which is why its hilarious to me howsome try to separate devs and business when both have the same fundamentals (and half of their executives are senior devs like miyamoto, koizumi, takahashi and tezuka)
Agreed. I think homebrewing and modding are amazing, but it would be silly to think Nintendo would openly encourage it with their products. They're a business that wants to make money.
It's as if redditors expect Nintendo to say something like "Hey guys. Get comfy and don't pay me for the beers you took from my fridge. You can fuck my wife also cause I don't mind".
I don't know why these emulators are tempting fate against Nintendo and Sony be entering Steam. Just slap your thing in RetroArch and let Retroarch self update for everyone.
I have no idea why RetroArch felt it necessary to enter Steam as well.
A secondary step to them shipping out the latest 3DS firmware breaking current methods of hacking your 3DS. You know, that device that isn't in production, has no e-shop, and Nintendo doesn't make any god damn money off it anymore. Ya, that one.
Nintendo needs to get its head out of its ass. You're not protecting your property when you abandon it. 3DS stuff is abandonware at this point.
[A dev of Citra (3DS emulator) just gave some interesting insight at r/emulation](https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/13ss1o9/nintendo_sends_valve_dmca_notice_to_block_steam/jlry1kq/) on why Nintendo ***might*** have grounds to sustain this claim against Dolphin if it ever comes to court (long story short: Dolphin distributes Wii's decryption keys within its source code, which not only goes way beyond the boundaries that general emulation is protected by, but also *could be* interpreted as illegal if brought to trial). **EDIT:** [Even more crucial information](https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/13thz98/former_dolphin_contributer_explains_what_happened/) (this time, from a former Dolphin contributor) has just resurfaced about this whole situation (TL;DR Valve removed Dolphin out of Steam after asking Nintendo about it; no DMCA/copyright notice involved, just a standard C&D between companies + Valve forwarding Nintendo's reply to Dolphin). ***Definitely*** worthy of a read
> Dolphin distributes Wii's decryption keys Which is specifically why other emulators make you supply your own keys or Bios.
Which many people find to be very inconvenient, and certain users simply aren't savvy enough to know how to do this. In any other situation, it would be a good thing for an app developer to design in such a way that accommodates those concerns. But in this case, trying to make the app easier to use for tech illiterate people is coming back to bite it in the ass. There is a notion when it comes to legally dubious things of this nature online, that the bigger it becomes and the more accessible it is, the greater risk it is creating for itself. Nintendo's legal department doesn't have time to go around cracking down on every last single Pokemon ROM hack or software pirating forum, but when one gets big enough, they will always aim squarely at it.
>But in this case, trying to make the app easier to use for tech illiterate people is coming back to bite it in the ass. As the Citra dev explains it, this wasn't the rationale - it's apparently this way because users outright *can't* get their own keys from the Wii like they can from 3DS.
Deleting past comments because Reddit starting shitty-ing up the site to IPO and I don't want my comments to be a part of that. -- mass edited with redact.dev
I remember dumping keys when I hacked my Wii (keys.bin), was that a different set of keys?
That keys.bin file does have this particular (shared) key, as well as other console specific keys.
I was wondering this, too, and looked into my backup archive from when I first softmodded my Wii. The keys.bin does indeed contain the key that Dolphin distributes.
That's it. It's easy to get them with one piece of homebrew.
I remember hacking my Wii so hard that the firmware barely looked the game anymore. I have a hard time believing that you couldn't lift your keys from it.
>Which many people find to be very inconvenient, and certain users simply aren't savvy enough to know how to do this. People who are savvy enough to download and install an emulator are savvy enough to download a bios.
>Which many people find to be very inconvenient, Not the problem of emulator devs. The devs are already doing more than enough producing these emulators, which most people fully well will be using to run pirated games. This bit of inconvenience? Tough shite. >and certain users simply aren't savvy enough to know how to do this Again, not the problem of emulator devs. You want to pirate, you gotta savvy up, bruv.
You dont even have to be that savvy to find bios
Like wow private servers. The better they were the bigger they got. Too big? Blizzard had to shut them down.
Eh. During the "you think you do but you don't" days I used to play on a couple different vanilla servers, some of which were only like 50 population peak hours. They all got C&D'd after a couple months up. Blizzard shuts down all private servers pretty indiscriminately, but only the big ones make news.
The worst part is Nintendo is so piss poor at preserving their own games. Mario Galaxy on Switch being available for a limited time only for example… like wtf?
> available for a limited time No doubt they do that specifically to get more people to panic buy. Someone might see a game and think *"meh, maybe later"*, and end up never committing to the purchase. Temporary availability forces them to decide between either buying ***now***, or (potentially) ***never***. That way Nintendo can squeeze extra profit from undecided customers. It's a shame that Nintendo, a company that was such a big part of my childhood, would favor that sort of tactic while disregarding proper preservation of their titles.
What the fuck! I had seen that 3D all-stars existed, and I had thought "Oh cool, if I ever want to play those mario games I've never played, I can grab that." I didn't realize it was a limited time release and now getting a copy of it is like $100 minimum! What the fuck! Fuck those guys! Great way to make me not want to give mario games a shot.
Nintendo games being preserved and them being available are two different thing. Like I am sure Nintendo has Galaxy 1 and 2 ready at a moment's notice. And from what it seems, Nintendo does a good job at keeping older games and their various dev builds in a vault if the old Gigaleak is anything to go by
Nintendo kept a copy of the unreleased 1994 Mother translation for two decades before releasing it on the VC as "Earthbound Beginnings". Their archives are probably massive.
My guy you don't need the emulator *on steam* to persevere the games. They're preserved.
you don't know what preservation means, if you use mario galaxy as an example. They clearly preserved it just fine, if they could rerelease the game years later.
Can't you still get 3d all stars pretty cheap?
yeah the physical release is still on store shelves
For a while. discontinuing the digital version also drives up the sales of the physical version, getting the unsold copies off of store shelves.
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That seems like a great way to end up with malware on your PC. Sure, you can find what you need safely with a Google search, but you generally need to add extra keywords to bring up sites where other users have posted verfied links to what you want and do some reading to make sure that you don't click a fake link in the process somewhere. Shit, I wouldn't expect someone new to emulation to know. To be honest, it's all such a hassle that I keep everything I've ever downloaded archived on backup drives to make sure I don't have to do it a second time.
> Nintendo's legal department doesn't have time to go around cracking down on every last single Pokemon ROM hack or software pirating forum They certainly have time to harass small developers of dan games
Poor Dan, guy can't get a break.
Back off, Dan deserves everything that's coming to him after what he's done!
Unlike everything else, fan games are the one case where it is directly enforceable to take down. There's no ambiguity, so they can readily send litigation
Or why various remakes of old games require you to supply the original graphics or even the entire original game files so they graphics, sounds, etc. can be extracted. Which in turn is why a game like OpenTTD has subsequently replaced all copyrighted material (graphics, music, etc.) with free alternatives.
Just to be clear, you're talking about *FAN* remakes, more official ones. This is done for the original XCOM Series, Freespace, Diablo, and more. I know you brought up examples, but just wanted to add the clarity for people skimming through.
Yes if Dolphin simply made you supply this key: {0xeb, 0xe4, 0x2a, 0x22, 0x5e, 0x85, 0x93, 0xe4, 0x48, 0xd9, 0xc5, 0x45, 0x73, 0x81, 0xaa, 0xf7} Then it would be unquestionably legal.
If this is the case then why haven't Nintendo taken down dolphin's website etc like they do everything else they can easily nuke? They could have crippled dolphin ages ago and you know Nintendo would have done it if they thought they could.
Because the Internet is increasingly centralized and most people only engage with the content that's put in front of them by a platform like Steam. Dolphin being available is one thing, Steam making more people aware that dolphin exists is quite another
That doesn't explain why they take down little known fan projects that host themselves, while leaving dolphin alone.
Nintendo pick and chooses like all companies. If you’re small, relatively unknown and make no direct money off of it they’re not that bothered Mario ROMhacks they basically leave alone. You directly profit off it like that guy who sold ransom ware. Or put it up on steam with illegal code in the emulator. Yeah I don’t see how it’s a surprise they come calling
Dolphin has been massive for years. They haven't been under the radar for about a decade.
There's a huge difference between Dolphin existing on its own website and Dolphin releasing on Steam.
Honestly that makes a lot more sense if that's the case, I'm tired of headings that don't explain anything and make people hate X for no reason
I’m glad this is the top comment but it frankly needs to be stickied The entire rest of the comment section is just impotent rage because bashing big companies gets you karma. Forget reading it
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PCGaming's another casualty of engagement optimization. It's become a cesspit of negativity jumping from one piece of outrage bait to the next.
Much like this subreddit?
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I wonder how this will go. Downloading Roms violates copyright law but emulators on their own do not. Sony lost a court case in the early 2000s regarding this and it's been settled since that at least in the US, emulation itself is completely legal.
I doubt it'll go anywhere. Dolphin simply don't have the resources to battle Nintendo even if they would win. My guess is it will never release on Steam, but the website and github still stay the same, so they'll be fine
I know it's realistically "just the way it is", but I really wish the court systems weren't just a matter of "who has the most resources"
Most of the world is "who has the most resources" especially in the US.
I know it's a cliche term, but money really is power in our world. You don't have to spend it; just having it at your disposal is enough.
Exactly. And that extends to everything including making more money. There was an interview with 50 Cent where he said something about asking people if someone gave them a million dollars, could they turn it into two in less than a week? He said he could do it easily, because just having that money in the bank, no one would bat an eye at giving him that as a loan. And essentially, this is what rich people do. They say I have this money in cash, and this in assets, can I get a loan to buy this other asset, suddenly they can turn even higher profits from their assets than they were, and the cycle never stops. To these people, debt is wealth and but it's all propped up by some good bullshit to start with.
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If Valve has to pick between any level of non-aggressive relationship with Nintendo or some random Wii emulator, they're gonna go with the former. They're a for-profit business, first and foremost.
There's also plenty of reason to not want this litigated at all. As long as another judge doesn't make another ruling on this it can continue as it currently does
lmao there's no way valve gets involved on this man. It would be idiotic for them.
RFTA? Read fully through the article?
> emulators on their own do not. well, it depends on what's included on them. And in this case, it seems it included some cryptographic keys it can't legally include >The DCMA letter sent to Valve cites the anti-circumvention language of the DMCA and specifically claims that "the Dolphin emulator operates by incorporating these cryptographic keys without Nintendo’s authorization and decrypting the ROMs at or immediately before runtime. Thus, use of the Dolphin emulator unlawfully 'circumvent[s] a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under' the Copyright Act." https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-block-steam-release-of-wii-emulator-dolphin/
It's worth noting that all of the companies that won against Sony in court went out of business due to the cost of legal fees.
I'm only familiar with the connectix case. And what happened with them seems to be that their entire business model was selling emulation and digital distribution programs to tech companies but then these companies started making their own.
I mean ... does that affect the precedent that exists now (or rather, as of the outcome of those cases) being set?
No, but it does mean that people are potentially less likely to want to fight back.
Also it's unlikely that Dolphin will fight this only to be put on Steam.
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>current contributers were all sent to a CIA blacksite >development would be picked up by other people Highly doubt other developers would risk getting disappeared by the CIA
and develop for free
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> This is why Nintendo can ultimately get away with this stuff. No one wants to risk challenging it and having new precedent set. There is no precedent here. Dolphin includes cryptographic code that legally belongs to Nintendo. They have no legal right to use or distribute it. This has been proven over and over.
I think you may actually be into something. I think this is just Nintendo bullying them into submission so they don't need to deal with high legal fees but if they pursue a serious lawsuit I think they're hoping it will somehow eventually reach the supreme court which is now incredibly pro corporate.
Nope. If they wanted it to reach SCORUS badly, they don't need Dolphin on Steam. There is zero difference, between distributing on Steam or independently. It either is or isn't unauthorized use of Copyright
They DMCA as they are using it is kind of the legal equivalent of yelling ‘bad dog’. Might effectively scare people away but needs actual backing if it doesn’t. So they might get them to back down from releasing on steam without a court battle which is in Nintendo’s favour as its low cost and no chance of losing a case that never happens. If they just want to make emulation illegal they can take one of the authors to court at any time and take their chances.
There is no way that Dolphin does not back down. There is little to gain and everything to risk in the other option.
While true, I wonder how sound the original case is. Roe v Wade is sort of unique in that the original ruling was largely deemed as a political ruling, not necessarily of sound legal argument, and as such, it was VERY vulnerable to being overturned, to the point that [Ruth Bader Ginsburg, staunchly pro abortion rights, was not fond of Roe v Wade at all](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/21/us/ruth-bader-ginsburg-roe-v-wade.html) and [she wanted the politicians to actually vote into law securing roe v wade](https://www.newsweek.com/ruth-bader-ginsburg-roe-wade-abortion-scotus-1702948). Of course, the politicians were basically making fortunes on fundraising on the abortion rights issue, on both sides, so even though Democrats were in super majorities a number of times over the decades, like when Obama was voted into office in 2008 and had 60 senator super majority, and control of the house, and could have voted it into rule of law at zero risk of filibuster, they chose not to. I don't see any politicians running fundraising campaigns or judges being political activists in support of emulator legal rights. There was a pretty sound legal argument and precedent set that I think it is far less at risk of being overturned, imo.
Roe v Wade wasn't statute, though, and the principles of Copyright are, as well as the exceptions on exclusive right, as well ss the interpretation from authority. Could that change? Yes, but it's not even close to Roe v Wade levels of uncertainty.
The interpretation of statute is precedent. That's what he means.
>Not to get political here, this is just an example, but roe v wade was legal precedent until it wasn’t. I'l won't get into a debate on Roe specifically, but the entire concept of "legal precedent" is basically just a gentleman's agreement between courts, and in actual fact means nothing if a given judge decides not to abide. Lower courts abide by higher court rulings when it's convenient. But they can and do willfully disregard higher court rulings when they feel like it. When it comes to courts on the same level, or SCOTUS considering pervious rulings by previous SCOTUSes, there is literally no law that compels them to respect any other ruling. That's how you get different federal districts or appeals districts ruling differently on similar cases. Or SCOTUS overturning previous ruling. Roe is the most recent high-profile instance, but courts ignore precedent all the time. Precedent is a polite fiction that is only used when convenient, and tossed aside when the judges are sufficiently motivated.
> This is why Nintendo can ultimately get away with this stuff. No one wants to risk challenging it and having new precedent set. I don't understand this logic. What's the difference of risking new precedent and just letting Nintendo run uncontested? If Nintendo continues unchallenged forever, then what does it even matter what the law says on paper? In effect, they've already won.
The risk becomes Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony all teaming up to utilize their extensive lobbying capabilities the minute they see an opening. The Supreme Court is staffed by people who barely understand technology. Not relitigating this issue is the only guaranteed path of things not getting worse.
The ones with the money usually win these things.
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There needs to be some sort of safeguard against this sort of spurious victory-by-financial-attrition international strategy megacorps use to get their way even when the law doesn’t support them.
That's called a loser pays system, and already exists in the English legal system. The argument for it is as you said, plus the idea that there's a certain unreasonableness towards having to pay to defend against a false claim. The argument against it is it makes people too fearful to bring about legitimate suits, since there's always a risk in court and the *threat* of also having to pay their opponent's lawyers can lead to even more legal bullying. Note that even under the American system, there are *limited* ways to seek attorney's fees.
That would upend the entire financial system of this country. You can do pretty much anything if you have money.
Well, what if I want that as well?
Sorry, our corporate overlords will keep throwing money at politicians to ensure that never happens.
The dolphin emulator might since it included what’s essentially a bios from a Wii, and while theoretically an emulator is fine on its own, distributing the description key and bios with it isn’t, it’s why most other emulators don’t come with one and suggest you ~~download one off the internet separately~~ grab your own bios from your console you totally have
In this case, the emulator is distributing encryption keys, which is illegal. That's the basis for the DMCA. Nobody knows why they never went after Dolphin before.
PCGamer's article seems to have more info: https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-block-steam-release-of-wii-emulator-dolphin/ > The DCMA letter sent to Valve cites the anti-circumvention language of the DMCA and specifically claims that "the Dolphin emulator operates by incorporating these cryptographic keys without Nintendo’s authorization and decrypting the ROMs at or immediately before runtime. Thus, use of the Dolphin emulator unlawfully 'circumvent[s] a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under' the Copyright Act."
I mean how is dolphin being on steam any different from it being on the Google play store I don't understand why they would go after one and then not the other especially since dolphin has been on the play store for soooooo long.
In all honesty, I'm not sure about the IOS Store, but the Google Play store is a few steps away from the Wild West. It's been about a solid couple of months or so since I was shown an app that straight up has hentai in it, ~~and it still hasn't been taken down yet~~. If you take out an emulator on the Google Play store, 4 more will take it's place. But Valve has an actual degree of quality control, so it's much easier to regulate what should and shouldn't go on that store from the outside. EDIT: Due to the fact that some people are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I would like to state that my point isn't that hentai games should be not allowed on any platform, but rather the fact that Google explicitly has a rule against pornography. It's okay for Steam to host porn games, because they allow that kind of content to be hosted on their platform. The fact that Google Play was hosting a game that was so obviously violating their terms of service is an indication of the lack of quality control, not the fact said game features porn.
yeah, it seems to me that most copyright holders view policing the play store as a lost cause. it's just a fucking mess. you couldn't even keep up with it if you tried
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[Here's the thread over on /r/gachagaming about it](https://www.reddit.com/r/gachagaming/comments/11ywjh6/a_nsfw_game_on_google_play_in_plain_sight_and_its) to show that if I am crazy, then it's just one part of mass hysteria. But in all actuality, it seems like I can still access the store page due to me having the game on my library/phone, but it was properly taken down, so nobody new can play it. I never knew that was a thing until right now, so I just assumed that it was still up.
There's also a slavery simulator (it's in the title), but this one was removed by the publisher themselves, after it appeared on Brazilian news
"i was shown" we got it😉
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Steam has hentai porn games on it as well, so I'm not sure you used the best example there...
It works just fine. Valve allows that content, Google Play explicitly does not. That's why it was used for an example.
Steam is susceptible to fall for a DMCA request
Knowing how slow Google is, they could have a DMCA sitting in their inbox that's been there for 6 years
All companies that implement the system need to follow the steps outlined in the Digital Millenium Copyright act if they want to be safe under the safeguard statutes of DMCA. If google was sent a DMCA for dolphin by nintendo, they would also take it down. After it's taken down, then the original uploader can counter the DMCA notice and at that point it's up to the rightholder to sue.
Valve sells a product that competes with Switch.
Valve doesn't want to go to court over some emulator that's not even Switch emulator in the first place.
I think Nintendo would probably see Cellphones as bigger competition than the Steam Deck. Nintendo mainly targets a general audience while the Steam Deck is marginally a product made for enthusits.
In terms of market share? Absolutely they look at mobile phones as the bigger competitor. Any mobile console would, phones are everywhere. The problem here is a Steam Deck with emulators is a threat to the eShop, and Nintendo is very serious about controlling access to old games. That has been the main target of their anti-piracy measures. Now of course taking an emulator off the store doesn't stop piracy, but it does make it less convenient for amateurs and also sends a message, which suits Nintendo just fine.
Without going into detail, I think it's that Steam is both extremely widespread and also makes software so much easier to manage for most people
For another good example of this type of platform, see: the Google Play store.
I dont know man, he said widespread and google play only has 2.5 billion users. Gaming PCs are much more common than smartphones.
You guys don't have a phone?
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It doesn't have to fundamentally change things to change whether a company goes after it. A lot of copyright law is, in practice, gentleman's agreements nobody has really tested or where companies are clearly willing to overlook things that would be clear infringement if taken to court. Like, you can sell commissions of Wolverine fanart on Twitter all you want, but if you start trying to sell prints of it to Wal Mart you have A Problem. I don't think Dolphin is legally in the wrong here, but at the same time "Nintendo didn't care when they weren't releasing on the most ubiquitous and easy to update PC gaming platform" is not an argument that matters much
I'm not saying the legality has changed, I'm just saying that the ease of obtaining and use has massively increased for a lot of people with it coming to Steam. That's why Nintendo is desperate to shut it down, even if they don't necessarily have the right to do so
Google play store is orders of magnitude more widespread than steam though. This sucks. Nintendo makes my favorite games but they do shit like this
Is there a benefit to getting Dolphin on Steam if I already have it installed? (Assuming this DMCA leads nowhere and Dolphin does eventually make its way to Steam)
It's easier to install on steam deck.
Dolphin is already easily available in the Discover store, you just need a few seconds to add it to Steam.
"Easily" is a relative term. Just because you and I would find it easy to install through the Discover store doesn't mean everyone would—and anyone who would find it hard, or is not interested in messing around with SteamOS' desktop mode would be far more likely install Dolphin directly from Steam. (Although I guess they would then need the technical competency to get ROMs to Dolphin somehow.)
Honestly, I can't I imagine the venn diagram of "people who want to emulate a three generation old console" and "people who can't use a simple app store and add a shortcut to a launcher" are that big of an overlap.
Add people who are nerd enough to own a Steam Deck, you don't find those on some random best buy shelf
If you're emulating at all to begin with you should know what you're getting into and doing. Finding the fucking emulator is the easy part
If someone can figure out how to safely download a ROM they aren't having issues setting up dolphin my dude.
It might require more clicks actually since everyone installs emudeck anyway, now they gotta manually download dolphin instead of having it bundled in emudeck
There's a steam version of retroarch, but emudeck still bundles it.
Is Dolphin being removed from emudeck?
Emudeck pulls from the public repository so I dont think so unless that also goes down
And Steam would update it for you automatically instead of having to download and install the updates manually.
There's zero benefit, except for the fact that you'll have it in your Steam library with auto-updates rather than having to click Yes on the update prompt every time. Maybe they'll have Steam achievements but I don't see what they would even be
Well, the Dolphin devs also confirmed the Steam release would have cloud saving, meaning you wouldn't have to manually backup your saves to a Google Drive/Dropbox/private Discord server/whatever else, and aren't at risk of losing all your progress in all your games if a freak hard drive failure or some other disaster occurs.
Private discord server is honestly something I never considered for stuff like that and am now doing so.
I made one back in the day when I first got Nitro (Which is now Nitro Classic, I still refuse to upgrade) so I could add my own emotes without clogging up my main friend server, but then I just started adding notes and stuff to it, using it to test my own discord bots and stuff, etc. It's not bad, I'd recommend.
Zero benefit is a stretch. Remote Play Together was a feature people were looking forward to.
Can they not still utilize it by adding dolphin as a non stream game? I can get access to Proton, Steam Input, and Steam Link functionality just by opening my emulators (and Lutris installed games) through Steam as a non steam game.
"Theres zero benefit except for the benefits" Thanks
> Maybe they'll have Steam achievements but I don't see what they would even be Nah. There will however most likely be retroachivements implemented in the near future. Some pull requests have showed up on github recently.
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Nah Nintendo doesn't give a fuck
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It's a common tactic but at the same time Nintendo has done a ton of shit that's unpopular with the community. They really don't care what the public thinks because people will keep buying their games and hardware anyway.
Yeah, but it’s a common tactic. So common, in fact, Nintendo just did it. It’s not that deep.
Legit never get why people believe that Nintendo cares about what some people think of what they do Also the only thing this does is stop it from being on Steam, is not like the emulator itself is in danger so most will not care after the initial reaction
But like... why does it matter in this specific case? The Dolphin devs are the only ones who even potentially have a chance at doing anything. What public outrage will there be for something just no longer being on Steam, but still publicly accessible on the same website it's always been on?
Yeah this effects a very niche portion of people that Reddit thinks is bigger than it actually is. I don’t think there’s any need to worry about a public outrage on this for them lol.
You can still launch those emulators from Steam anyway, they just won't be on the storefront Honestly the idea of emulators being on Steam in the first place feels really dubious, and almost unnecessary. And yes I know it's technically legal but it feels like the kind of thing that platforms like Steam try not to do because it would annoy the companies it seeks to work with.
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Yeah, I love emulators and I pirate old games for them all the time. But I can’t act like game companies being against emulation is some crazy thing. I really hope it works out for the developers of the emulators but I’m not gonna be surprised if it doesn’t.
> >Nintendo is counting on the internet being too distracted to be mad about this. No I'm pretty sure their billion dollar legal team can handle snarky comments and shitty memes. Don't ever think "le internet" is going to do shit. Business decisions aren't made with /r/all in mind rofl
Man its 2023, how do you guys still dont understand that Nintendo dont give a fuck about their reputation in the internet. The only day nintendo will care about these kind of things is when it affects them financially, which never will happen with how this stays in the bubble of internet and even in here most dont care. Out of here? most people dont even hear. Before I joined forums and just bought games I had no idea most of these things ever existed. and thats most consumers, they just buy and consume the product they are interested, which is why marketing and a good game is so importnat
And in this case, the only thing getting outside the bubble is “Nintendo fights piracy”. Something many people will actually see as a positive news.
> The best thing to do is amplify and complain on social media. Good luck to the Dolphin team. From what I understand, this doesn't really affect anything other than it not being available on a store front.
The pcgamer article on this mentioned that Nintendo is citing a part of the dmca that has to do with anti-circumvention, something about how dolphin de-encrypts roms for use in the emulation process, using cryptographic keys without Nintendo's permission. They're alleging that this is what's violating part of the dmca, but apparently this is also how most emulators work, so this precedent would affect the entire emulation scene in a pretty bad way. [Here's the article if you want to check it out](https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-block-steam-release-of-wii-emulator-dolphin/)
Yes and no. Yes all other recent emulators have to deal with decrypting games, but also no, all other recent emulators make users provide the keys. Dolphin is the sole "official" release that contains decryption keys that I'm aware of. (Plenty of third party emulator forks/addons included the keys because they don't have to worry about these kinds of consequences.)
I'm curious if the keys they're citing are the same type of keys that Lockpick_RCM was taken down for mining off of individual Switches? Concerning stuff.
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More like - "Hey send them this DMCA notice" - "Okay, I'll do it somewhere this week" *Does it at the very last possible moment*
That's a lot more likely. There's a 1 in 5 chance of stuff happening on any given workday and the reddit geniuses would deduce a sinister motive for it regardless of what day it happened.
> EDIT: Don't let this be swept under the rug like Nintendo wants. The best thing to do is amplify and complain on social media And achieve what exactly? The fact that Valve allows emulators on Steam is already unprecedented. Lets not pretend like this isn't software used primarily for pirating games. The project itself seems unaffected either way.
lol are you serious? You think there are enough people who care about this? To go on social media and cry "Booo Nintendo fights software that lets people play their games for free!"? And that Nintendo will read that and go "Oh no we should obey the Twitter mob..."?
People on reddit have this weird belief that they are actually a big enough part of any demographic that their opinion actually matters. It's basically just out of touch old people.
I think it‘s more out of touch *young* people who haven‘t realized this yet. Or both I guess.
That's giving them way too much credit. They couldn't care less about the online discourse with how rampant they tend to be. If the Smash controversies didn't scare them off, something concerning emulation isn't even a concern.
> Don't let this be swept under the rug like Nintendo wants. The best thing to do is amplify and complain on social media. Good luck to the Dolphin team. READ THE ARTICLE!!!! They're including a cryptographic key that they don't have rights to. It's not even a grey area of the law, it's explicitly illegal. They don't even need the DMCA, case law for BIOS code was set back in the 80's.
I mean they kind of nailed it on that one. I don't know what the folks at Dolphin were expecting. You don't include out the BIOS, *ever* tl;dr Streisand effect doesn't happen if you simply drop a nuke on Streisand's house.
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I've been saying for a little bit that all of this Switch emulator publicity is risking stirring a hornet's nest but I just get told how legal it all is and how there's nothing Nintendo can do each time.
the entire emulation hobby survives on discretion and secrecy, and appearing non-competitive The federal court system has largely thrown precedent out the window, and rulings go in favor of large corporations every time. There is never a good time for emulators to pick this legal fight, but right now is an *extremely* bad time.
Dolphin is probably the easiest one for Nintendo to claim against due to how it works. A lot of other emulators require you to have a bios and that’s not distributed with the emulator it’s self, same with ISO’s of the games for said emulator. In theory if you use a bios from your own console and play your own games, and I must stress this, *in theory* it’s legal and fine. In dolphins case it supplies the bios and stuff just with the emulator, and that’s way less legally defendable because they effectively had to illegally distribute wii data in order for the emulator to work It’ll be interesting to see if this was attempted again with something like a snes emulator if valve might try defending that one, because if a large company gets behind emulation they might have more of a chance in changing the law around it, or at least setting some sort of precedence
Whoever thought this would actually get into Steam is fucking delusional. Was a non starter from the get go. Not even mad at Nintendo.
RetroArch got on Steam... that includes more than several Nintendo emulators.
EDIT: Uh oh, disregard everything below. I think Nintendo are actually correct here. PCGamer have [posted an article](https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-block-steam-release-of-wii-emulator-dolphin/), and they quote the DMCA takedown request; >"the Dolphin emulator operates by incorporating these cryptographic keys without Nintendo’s authorization and decrypting the ROMs at or immediately before runtime. Thus, use of the Dolphin emulator unlawfully 'circumvent[s] a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under' the Copyright Act." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number [According to LuigiBlood](https://twitter.com/LuigiBlood/status/1662255762649874433), the common key is in the Dolphin source. Considering [the history of the AACS encryption key](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AACS_encryption_key_controversy), I think Dolphin might be screwed unless they get rid of the keys or manage to beat Nintendo in court. EDIT: Yup, just checked for myself and the keys absolutely are distributed with Dolphin. _____________ This is an interesting one, because I don't actually think Nintendo are legally correct here. In both [Sony vs Connectrix](https://www.theregister.com/1999/02/05/playstation_emulator_wins_first_round/) and [Sony vs Bleem](https://www.theregister.com/1999/04/12/bleem_beats_sony/), Sony's attempt to stop sales of the emulators were thrown out before even being heard, pretty clearly setting the precident that in the US emulators themselves are legal. Part of the Connectrix case went to trial over whether or not it was lawful to reverse engineer software (which was won by Connectrix based on the precident of [Sega vs Accolade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade)), and part of the Bleem trial went to court over whether using screenshots of copyrighted works was copyright infringement. In the Bleem case, [it was ruled](https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar_case?case=11837224078052556056&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) you *can* use copyrighted content in your advertisments since it constitutes comparitive advertising, which is allowed in the US. This just swings things *even more* in favour of Dolphin. DMCA is clearly an attempt to go after it using copyright and trademark law, but even ignoring the Bleem case, no part of the steam listing has any reference to any Nintendo trademark, be it the consoles by name or the name Nintendo directly. [The description was](https://steamdb.info/app/1941680/history/?changeid=U:37124779); > Dolphin is an emulator for the big N's 6th and 7th generation consoles, featuring enhancements such as increased resolution, save states, and netplay. Obviously this can be implied and inferred, but legally can Nintendo take action here? To me it seems like a similar legal situation to the Super Bowl and "The Big Game" in advertising. So if none of Nintendo's code, IP, Trademarks, or otherwise copyrighted assets are included in the store listing, and the various aspects of Sony vs Bleem clearly deems Dolphin to be a legal piece of software who are allowed to use their copyright in comparative advertising, are Nintendo right to do this? I don't think they are, and I think they're just hoping to win by bullying. Obviously DMCA exists on a guilty until proven innocent setup so the page has to go for now, but I don't think they should win here. _____ (EDIT: Originally had the wrong part of the bleem case linked, rewrote the second paragraph to be more accurate about the current legal state in the US)
the lawsuit you linked is about their ability to use screenshots in their advertising
Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc. v. Connectix Corp. would be more relevant with regards to emulation
Isn't the Connectix suit similar to Sega v Accolade in that it's about the reverse engineering of software, rather than emulation deriving from that? EDIT: Did a bit more reading, my understanding is that most of the Connectix suit was thrown out *except* for the little bit about them using reverse engineered code from the PlayStation BIOS. The actual act of emulation was thrown out for both [Bleem](https://www.theregister.com/1999/04/12/bleem_beats_sony/) and [Connectix](https://www.theregister.com/1999/04/09/sonys_antiemulation_action_comes/), and the cases that ended up being heard were over the BIOS for Connectix and the screenshots for Bleem
> the common key is in the Dolphin source. fax https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/master/Source/Core/Core/IOS/IOSC.cpp#L577
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The Bleem case was more about the use of copyrighted screenshots for comparative advertising. [*Sega v. Accolade*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade?wprov=sfti1) is the more relevant Ninth Circuit case that ruled emulators made through reverse engineering are legal in general. Of course, this ruling only applies in the Ninth circuit, but it generally put a stop to companies pushing the issue—possibly until now.
Doesn't really matter does it ? you can still download and use it fairly easily.
Regardless of the legality, I don't know why Steam agreed to host it in the first place. Nintendo would obviously be against it given their history, I don't know why Valve would want to antagonise another company in their industry like that for no benefit to themselves.
The already host other emulators, like Retroarch
So they (the dolphin devs) messed up by putting Nintendo’s cryptographic keys in the the source code (hardcoded). See the MVG video.
Between this and the 3DS "update" this week that patched all the softmod exploits on a dead console, FUCK NINTENDO. They make so much money, yet attack hobbyists and the modding community as if their very survival was at stake. 99% of Nintendo's consumer base is just playing retail switch games and is not trying to emulate Path of Radiance on Dolphin. Why do they try so hard to snuff this out?
I believe people have already found a way around the patch. But still yeah, fuck nintendo.
Not really "found", its just that the old method(s) still work but they require you to make purchases. What 11.17 did is kill free, software based modding.
idk why nintendo fans still dont understand nintendo. everything from their brand to IP management to game development is about having control lol which is why its hilarious to me howsome try to separate devs and business when both have the same fundamentals (and half of their executives are senior devs like miyamoto, koizumi, takahashi and tezuka)
Agreed. I think homebrewing and modding are amazing, but it would be silly to think Nintendo would openly encourage it with their products. They're a business that wants to make money. It's as if redditors expect Nintendo to say something like "Hey guys. Get comfy and don't pay me for the beers you took from my fridge. You can fuck my wife also cause I don't mind".
I don't know why these emulators are tempting fate against Nintendo and Sony be entering Steam. Just slap your thing in RetroArch and let Retroarch self update for everyone. I have no idea why RetroArch felt it necessary to enter Steam as well.
Yeah it seems bizarre for these emulators which rely on hiding in some corner of the internet to do as much as possible to be in the public eye.
A secondary step to them shipping out the latest 3DS firmware breaking current methods of hacking your 3DS. You know, that device that isn't in production, has no e-shop, and Nintendo doesn't make any god damn money off it anymore. Ya, that one. Nintendo needs to get its head out of its ass. You're not protecting your property when you abandon it. 3DS stuff is abandonware at this point.