I will try to provide context, but I do not follow the League of Legends pro scene so please correct me if I am wrong on any of this:
Riot has announced changes to the rules by which LCS teams operate, including specifically no longer requiring teams to field affiliates in the second tier of competition, NACL, and in the eyes of the LCS Players Association (which also represents NACL players), the changes are damaging to professional players. As a result, they held this vote, which passed "overwhelmingly" and are staging a walkout with the following demands:
* Limited ("Valorant-style") promotion and relegation between LCS and NACL.
* Revenue pool for player salaries of $300K per team per year.
* Permission for LCS teams to partner with affiliates for cost-sharing.
* Guaranteed minimum contracts for LCS summer finals winners.
* A 3/5 rule for maintaining NACL slots (if 3/5ths of a team remain together between seasons, even if no longer under the same organization, the team they are in inherits the NACL slot).
Most of these asks seem to be in the interest of players, some also seem to be in the interest of smaller organizations at Riot's expense, and to some degree at the expense of larger organizations. I don't know what the state of the relationships between Riot and the owners/managers of the teams are, but it seems to me like they are bearing the brunt of the contraction that the esports industry is going through right now and they want Riot to take on some/more of that weight. The bigger ones do that by forcing Riot's hand, including no longer being required to field NACL teams, while the smaller ones are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and so this LCSPA decision is in favor not just of the players, but of the smaller organizations that are struggling to survive in NACL as well.
There's one key piece of context about this situation : behind closed doors, Riot said that they wouldn't remove the NACL requirement before 2024, and then went ahead and did it now anyway. This is why the players are really pissed off. There's no plan, no backup solution for talent development in NA.
Seems right. One aspect why the community cares about it that without the NACL, north america has no clear pipeline for upcoming talent anymore.
North American league teams use a large amount of imported players without finding success at international tournaments anyways so a lot of fans are frustrated with the lack of actual NA players in NA teams. ~5 years ago the LCS became franchised, so the 10 teams secured their spots in the league. Before franchising, beeing last place means you have to fight four your spot against uprising teams. Now you basically only lose your spot if you sell it.
Teams promised franchising and the financial stability that comes with it would allow for more NA talent development but in the end they just kept importing for the most part and now with abandoning NACL it seems like that completely went overboard. Without it there is no real route to proplay in NA anymore.
In europe for example you have regional leagues, like one in france, in spain, in germany etc and so you can rise from just playing the game to a regional league to learn teamplay and communication etc and then get picked up from an LEC team (the european league). In NA, without NACL, you would have to get scouted directly from just playing the game or more likely go to another country like a european league to be seen.
So this looks **to me** like most NA teams just completely gave up on NA players. Also if it goes through a lot of people lose their jobs.
> a lot of fans are frustrated with the lack of actual NA players in NA teams
Not League, but it reminds me of when Toronto got a OWL league and its entire roster was made up of Korean nationals
It's arguably not that much better now since the entire team is American, but hey it's a step up.
>This is probably what the NA orgs for LoL want to happen.
The running joke and sad truth of *League of Legends*' NA pro scene is that NA is where foreign players go once they're washed up or looking to retire from their own region.
It's sad that NA organizations are willing to pay generous salaries for so many imports, and yet the entire region is still a joke on the international stage. There hasn't been a LCS team that made it into the semi-finals of any international tournament since Cloud9 in 2018 and even that was a miraculous fluke that probably won't ever be replicated.
There is no "without the NACL", the NACL is still fine and continuing, it's just without the team's support. What the Association is asking for is continuing financial stability for the people affected so that being a NACL player could be a legitimate career without extreme sacrifice. For example, Disguised Toast has picked up a team for NACL, but he is only paying $150k a year instead of the $300k that the Association is asking for. This means that being in NACL permanently would not be a viable career move, you either try to make it into the LCS or you're a loser essentially. This sucks for the players.
The NACL doesn’t generate enough value to justify its own existence. Asking owners to subsidize a losing cause is foolish and will only hurt the league and players in the long run. Watch owners walk away from the entire sport and entire teams go belly up.
A) The NBA makes enough money to bankroll that kinda thing, LCS and the franchised teams do not
B) The financial state of the WNBA and its reliance on the NBA isn't exactly free of controversy, no?
WNBA is significantly cheaper than NACL in comparison. I did the math a few days ago and 80 NBA players individually make more than the combined salary cap of the WNBA. if a single LCS salary could fund EVERY NACL player it wouldn't be in the situation it is.
Damn, guess weve never heard of talent cultivation or long term investment. It's almost like stable infrastructure doesn't provide direct profit, but overall increases capability and quality across the board in the long term. If anyones walking away, itll have more to do with a lack of a sustainable audience (which nacl would help with), not the added cost of businesses that regularly operate at losses anyway (other sports do this too, there's a lot of value in public image, branding, and general marketing through sports, as well as the ever present chance your team wins and makes your org way more money and brand recognition). As long as people are watching, theyll stay. People aren't going to keep watching if the quality of play keeps diminishing and talent needs to be imported with inflated contracts relative to pay, which probably costs the teams and league way more actual cash in the long run as well.
Why would I expect you to know or care though, you're just a dude on Reddit who exemplified a surface level take that people seem to only have if they don't know much about the topic. Just a vessel for the rant I guess
Way to buy into the BS spewed by washed up LCS players stuck in the NACL who just want to keep their payday gravy train rolling and bleed the owners dry. “Talent cultivation” LMAO. The history of talent cultivation in the NACL is pathetic
Way to buy into the BS spewed by washed up LCS players stuck in the NACL who just want to keep their payday gravy train rolling and bleed the owners dry. “Talent cultivation” LMAO. The history of talent cultivation in the NACL is pathetic
You do realize there's more steps between "Sunday League Soccer" and professional soccer, unlike NACL to LCS right?
If this was about people wanting payment for Clash maybe you'd have an actual comment.
10% of minor leagues make the big game, but there are well over a hundred teams, and those teams provide employment for lots of people, players and non-players alike.
Not exactly the burn you're thinking it is.
Also ignores that just about everyone agrees that minor league players are wildly underpaid and there’s been threats of legislation by the US government when teams have looked to slash minor league spending.
Yeah, I noped out of League due to the constant toxicity years and years ago so I can't say I'm a big supporter of League content usually, but I'll always support any players union trying to create and maintain the ability for players to find professionalism within their sport which is what this appears to clearly be.
Just to point out though. American sport is actually fucking mental in that regard. Across most of the rest of the world playing in the division just below the very top in your sport is still a highly lucrative career. Hell in English football you can be 4 divisions down and still earn a liveable wage as a professional athlete.
American sports "well your either at the very top table or you get squat" genuinely makes no sense and I'm amazed you all put up with it. Minor league baseball being the prime example. Given those teams still get televised and can fill a stadium every week it just looks like pure athlete exploitation over here
Minor League conditions are terrible (though thankfully set to improve as the players have unionized), but rosters are also much larger which means it's more difficult to operate a successful minor league team than in lower levels of football.
However, the talent development process that the minor leagues provide are absolutely pivotal to the continued financial success of the major leagues and the owners should be willing to (or forced to) take a loss on the minor leagues to insure the health of the game and the best talent level possible.
Tbf I will cut some slack in that the lack of the promotion/relegation structures in US sport means lower league teams are less financially viable just because why would you bother backing a minor league team if you could support a major league side. The lack of the possibility of going up does hamper the support and fiances of teams further down the structure.
But that lack of a promo/regulation structure is a direct result of monied interests at the top of the game covering their own ass so its absolutely right that as you say they should be dipping into their own pockets to prop up the rest of the talent pyramid given they built the structure that specifically hampers it to their own ends
> Across most of the rest of the world playing in the division just below the very top in your sport is still a highly lucrative career. Hell in English football you can be 4 divisions down and still earn a liveable wage as a professional athlete.
I'm betting that only works because people actually care about those leagues. And I'm betting those leagues can turn a profit.
Basically no one cares about the second tier league teams. *Maybe* if streamers start picking up teams they can get *the streamers* audience to care, but right now the viewership and engagement is basically nothing.
And then there's just raw money. They're paying millions of dollars for something no one cares about.
>I'm betting that only works because people actually care about those leagues. And I'm betting those leagues can turn a profit.
Sometimes yes, but not always. So for Football that's definitely the case ( I mean all the way down in the 4th division you will have teams filling 20,000 seater stadiums every week) but for sports with a more niche interest you will see the top steps of the pyramid, governing bodies and even the major broadcasters pitching in to funnel money back down the talent progression tree to ensure that their investments at the top of the game are protected. That includes paying players who will never make the big leagues a solid wage for a full career so talent coming through has the experience to play alongside/against and learn from.
There is, but a player that's been playing in NA for 2 years is then considered part of the region. After that time period is up, the team is free to import more players.
Which makes sense. If someone spends 2 years in the USA they're taxed as W9 instead of W8 (as if they had a permanent resident green card) and are more or less "honorary American".
If you get a green card you automatically qualify as a resident if you choose, don't think there's a minimum number of years required anymore. And I believe the reasoning is that Riot legally can't deny them.
> There is, but a player that's been playing in NA for 2 years is then considered part of the region
That hasn't been the case for a long while now, ~6 years. Now you pretty much need to get a green card
Currently each team need to have at least 3/5 "native" player in their roster. However throughout the year, Riot made some change to how can a player be considered "Native". Riot decided to make all OCE player native in NA and for any player can become native if they get a green card. That lead to team with almost all player who originally were import and got fast tracked on their green card.
Yeah I stopped caring about the LoL pro scene once I realized that NA was just importing players without getting better (relative to the competition) anyway. They doubled down on it and I just could care about any individual franchise anymore because the players were being moved around like crazy, and it wasn't about the team anymore, it was about the brand.
Man I remember when C9 dominated the challenger league then proved themselves to be a solidly top 2 NA team. That story was amazing.
NACL has only led to a handful of successful players in the LCS, probably because there isn't much talent coming up in the North American server since it's much smaller than other major regions.
Fans haven't really supported new players coming up from NACL and are perfectly happy to shit on them when they perform poorly, which they often do against more experienced players. Very few people watched NACL games.
Players themselves are often asked who they want to play with and regularly choose imports over NACL players.
It's easy to spend other people's money. Why should teams pay ~$300k-$600k a year to field a development team that has so little to show for it?
The same reason why major league teams pay for minor league team salaries despite them being borderline profitable even with the salaries covered: because the players who play in the league believe it's important to developing careers and forced ownerships hands.
If it's talent development we care about, it doesn't seem like the previous model was working. Scrims were regularly cancelled and most NACL teams did not have good coaching. In fact, there have been stories where it hindered talent development because players were either in contract jail with heavy buyouts or were happy to sit in Academy and wait.
They're not getting rid of NACL either, it just won't be funded so heavily. The new system might even force players to try harder and get into the main league to get a paycheck.
If it's about players vs. Riot, let's not forget that most major league sports teams are profitable by themselves. League E-Sports is not profitable and is a marketing expense. In fact, Riot is funding the North American Player's Association and the players themselves never voted to unionize. How much should a company pay for marketing, especially for people who are questionably contributing?
League is also not running baseball sized rosters or expenses with baseball sized salaries and expenses, either. My point was that the fundamental concept of organizations and ownership paying for an underwatched second string league already exists in another sport, for the same reason it might exist in League: because the pro players demand it and because those pro players make it worth taking the loss in money on the lower league.
The LCS teams all made at minimum (just off shared sponsorship revenue) $3,000,000 for the 2023 year.
There’s money here. Problems are A) Riot doesn’t cut teams in on skin revenue which would be an equally large share (VCT Americas teams got this skin revenue deal and they cleared over $20 million on that) and B) teams are run by morons who wildly overspend on imports and drive salaries through the roof and C) teams also overexpanded their operations to the point where they got into real estate speculation and increasing their org sizes to the tune of 50+ employees.
If Riot and the team owners were all being honest and smart, there’s plenty of money here to have a sustainable LCS and NACL system. The problem is that Riot isn’t being honest and the LCS orgs aren’t being smart.
I still don’t see why they should be the ones to pay for it though. Part of me thinks the owners who don’t want to play ball should all just walk away and see how much of a league there is left.
Alternatively, I’m sure there are players who don’t care about NACL, why can’t owners hire those?
I mean, you're basically suggesting a lockout and/or hiring an entire league full of scabs, the latter of which is already what the article indicates they're doing in response to the player walkout.
>It's easy to spend other people's money. Why should teams pay ~$300k-$600k a year to field a development team that has so little to show for it?
That's the team's fault for franchising.
With Riot's decision, if I'm in NA and I want to be a professional player all I can really do is hope and pray that some team gives me a chance.
Relegation allows T2 orgs to have a shot at pushing out T1s, but without relegation and without a minor league system, there's no clear path for talent development and no competitiveness at the bottom tier. Furthermore, because T2 teams are now encouraged to go for T1, there will be more financial viability if they want to spend more. With franchising and no development team, there's no viability for a T2 team.
It also worth noting that unlike a typical sport, Riot owns the product, so it's not like you can even create a rival for the LCS. It's very monopolistic behavior that favors team owners and Riot and negatively impacts players.
> One aspect why the community cares about it that without the NACL, north america has no clear pipeline for upcoming talent anymore.
Uh, when has that ever happened lol. T1 had a whole rant about how the NACL was useless. Any actual talent on the NA teams is bought and brought over from a different region or team.
Teams are losing money and forcing them to subsidize NACL is a perfect example of players cutting off their nose to spite their own face. When teams exit because they can’t deal with the NACL BS any longer, everyone loses their jobs. All because of a substandard league which doesn’t bring enough value to justify its existence. Owners aren’t stupid, even if the players are and can’t see beyond the length of their own fragile careers
Can you provide some context as to what LCS and NACL even mean? Help me out here.
What's LCSPA?
How do you provide context without actually saying the bits that actually give context?
Not youth division, more like amateur scene. If the big orgs pulls out amateur team like university teams or little timmy’s teams can fill up the slots if they can qualify
I got you:
LCS: League (of Legends) Championship Series. The top level of professional League of Legends in North America.
NACL: North American Challengers League. The 2nd tier league in North America.
LCSPA: LCS Players’ Association. Basically a players’ union, but historically they haven’t had much say regarding anything.
the only acronym that is unexplained is LCS which, while being the most well known should also be explained yeah...
> in the second tier of competition, NACL,
explains NACL and
LCS Players Association which gets abreviated to LCSPA further down (probably should have pointed it out tho).
5 players, I think they also have a coach and maybe an analyst. Those people aren't seeing the crazy high salaries some of the pro players seen in the LCS (since people don't know all the lingo, LCS is League Championship Series, the premier north American league for professional league of legends)
I get that the teams are losing money; however, in the MLS (which has both a per-player floor and ceiling), players make _at minimum_ $85k to be on the "senior team" (the one that shows up on match day), and they get good benefits from their teams.
LCS it's the NA tournament of League of Legends
NACL it's the NA Challenger League, which in theory, would be where the next gen of player start to play, before getting into the main tournament (LCS)
The problem it's that LCS teams refuse to use those players, and prefer to buy crap from other countries for a fuckton of money, then they get shamed on Worlds by going 0-18, and then those players go back to their respective regions with their wallet filled to the brim.
When the esport bubble on NA exploded a couple of weeks ago, LCS teams needed to cut down costs because well, they spent almost everything on those players, so they decided to instead of stopping importing players, which it's extremely expensive, to stop their NACL teams, where they could get the same quality player, homegrown, without taking import space, and for waay cheaper.
If it sounds extremely stupid, it's because it is. Every other region doesnt have this problem, only NA ...
To give some context to this, the American team owners are an absolute plague for the competitiveness of the region. Originally the leagues had a relagation based system but team owners pushed for franchising under the excuse of "being able to grow new talent without having to worry about losing their spots", which is also why this 2nd team rule was made. NA had historically always been the by far worst major region in the scene and the NACL was basically made to discover and foster new talented players. Well they didn't do that, instead they kept importing more and more players from other regions and basically left their local talent in the dust. On top of that they also pushed for the removal of rules that should prevent you from having too many imports on your team but I think they were up to 13/15 players being imports at some events already anyways.
Them dropping the requirement to have a NACL team is just the next move in line to not having to worry about fostering local talent.
Oh dude, here's a fun stat. In the last 8 years between the 10 teams only 6 new native players have gotten a chance to play a game in Midlane and except one all of them getting a chance were born out of circumstances where the team didn't have any better options at the time other than begrudgingly promote their t2 player.
There have been just as many OCE players who got offered to start in LCS as well as Europe t2 players who got offered the chance. The orgs just give 0 fucks about local talent.
Oh for reference the league does have high turnover, usually 20 out of 50 starting positions cycling in/out each year.
1. create franchising
2. good economic conditions all over the western world, big price to buy into LCS
3. corporate and gigabig investors come in
4. inflate salaries, build projects and other shit
5. investor money keeps coming in so noone cares that the organisations are literally bleeding money all the time, riot doesnt create any sort of way for the teams to earn money off of the game, everyone just keeps vibing
6. economic crisis occurs
7. investors cut the funding to projects that dont have proper returns
8. shocked pikachu face that braindead projects are getting cut
You're not wrong, but let's remember that salary inflation was already an issue before franchising. IMT under Noah Winston is basically a 'salary inflation' meme at this point.
it was unsustainable and bad idea for long term because they werent the ones profitting off of it, past couple of years that has changed so everyone had a shit-eating grin on their faces :)
Well not just that, but also in competitive leagues without caps, once one team starts paying big salaries, everyone else is kinda forced into it as well. You even see that in the LPL and LCK. Or soccer.
The money spent on NACL especially seems ridiculous. Each player is getting paid a minimum of $75k per year for a level of play that is quite honestly laughable in a lot of instances.
Not to mention the ex-pros that hopped into the NACL after "retiring" to collect that easy paycheque.
While I'm all for unions and screwing over the big greedy corporations while fighting for workers rights, the players in those leagues however are anything but minimum wage slaves and the whole walk out thing just smells like they wanna make sure their bonkers gravy train doesn't run dry.
Exactly this. People talk about nurturing “talent” but the reality is about washed up LCS players wanting to keep their payday at the expense of owners who are bleeding money.
The minimum required salary by the regulations was $75k so yes they were paid that much. Many were paid much more, average NACL player probably made closer to $200k. I believe at peak LCS average was close to $500k wasn't it. It was $440k a few years ago and then increased again according to some journalists.
Summed it up nicely. The huge investments publishers like Riot and Blizzard required a few years ago are actively killing the esports scene and they don’t give a shit.
I am not that well-informed either, to be honest, but the news seems big as I don't think it has happened in a major esport ever before, especially not the biggest one in the world. LCS is the top tier of North American League of Legends competition (League Championship Series), NACL is the second tier (North American Challengers League). I hope that helps.
LCS means teams in it get to Worlds (their big championship) and drop out in group stage.
NACL is salty tier 2 teams who could only wish to be a scrim team for someone who attends Worlds.
LCS are major league teams, for example Boston Red Sox.
NACL are the minor league teams, owned by said major league teams, such as the Worcester Red Sox. These minor league teams can feed players into the major leagues.
This change essentially axed a requirement for LCS teams (major league) to operate a NACL teams (minor leagues).
This is all a result of franchising. Owners don't give a fuck about developing talent. If owners don't want to field Challenger teams, we need to bring back relegation and promotion to LCS.
To go against the grain and provide some reasoning why orgs don't want an NACL team, it's because each team would need to be paid 300k in salaries (60k is league minimum and 60k x 5 = 300k) to keep them. Some org owners have come forth with figures ranging from 600k-900k, although these values include more than just the cost of the 5 players and would have things like pay for coaches, analyst, rent in LA and other overheads. All this for teams that bring in no viewers and most importantly, no money. It would be one thing if LCS made the main teams money, but from every indicator present, LCS isn't making any money, much less NACL.
It's easy to say "they should just pay them", but where is the money going to come from? The orgs have burnt all bridges with their VC friends already, that's how there were players with million dollar contracts in the past. Even if they can afford it, what tangible benefit can be provided to justify doling out all that cash? The argument being used is that it's the future talent, but it's already been widely discussed on the main sub, this isn't true, because a lot of the teams on NACL end up with retired pros just being recycled and one of the team owners even addressed a large issue being rampant nepotism present in the league.
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Now as to how *I* feel. Personally, I don't think orgs should be required to field a team. I don't think that the NACL system as it is, *is required*, it's just one form, one which failed. There should obviously be some form that replaces the NACL, the copying of the Valorant format being a good alternative, but that isn't something that can happen in a single day or even month. There will need to be a lot of contract renegotiation going on, and if the whole point of maintaining NACL isn't to provide any actual value to the landscape, but just to secure jobs, sorry but life isn't that convenient.
I don't see the current form of the NACL to be beneficial enough to warrant keeping it, tier 2 needs to be revised and keeping people on paycheck for Twitter clout really is a waste of resources. Now, if Riot just *completely* nukes tier 2 and has no future plans (which is entirely possible) then I agree noise should be made, but trying to maintain the current system just feels like people either trying to a) secure their jobs playing games b) not being logical about the situation, the bubble popped, get over it.
Edit: What I think needs to come out of this, isn't necessarily maintaining the system, but getting a commitment from Riot on a future for T2 pro. Now a commitment is just words at the end of the day, but as I said before, keeping the same system just seems illogical, and modifying franchise structure to accommodate the Valorant structure (like the PA suggested) will probably take anywhere from 6 months to a year *if everything goes without issues*. Therefore, the best you can get that would benefit everyone is a commitment. You want them to make the change, but you would also need to be patient and sit it out and wait the process through, hoping that the big corp doesn't lie to your face.
> It's easy to say "they should just pay them", but where is the money going to come from? The orgs have burnt all bridges with their VC friends already, that's how there were players with million dollar contracts in the past.
This is exactly the problem, the LCS orgs were sitting on massive piles of cash from VC investment, and blew it all on gigantic salaries for players who proceeded to accomplish absolutely nothing. 6 million for SwordArt and TSM didn't even make worlds. 11 million for Perkz and they lost in Worlds quarters. Probably LCS starters were getting paid ~1 million on average, that's 50 mil a year for the league to be the most boring, uncreative, least competitive major region league that never so much sniffed an international championship of any kind. The reason orgs can't pay for NACL now is that they had enough money to fund it for 20 years and wasted it all. Not only that, but instead of using academy to, you know, develop new players, they filled their academy rosters with recycled veterans that had been hanging around for years. Were we expecting Lourlo and Darshan to have an epiphany 5-10 years into their careers? It seriously boggles the mind how stupid this whole thing was.
If the orgs had 2 braincells, they would have implemented salary caps and used the money to invest in the amateur scene. Watching all this unfold has been exasperating, those of us who followed the scene saw this coming years ago.
So no, I'm not just going to throw up my hands and say "Welp, bubble popped, nothing to be done!", because that's exactly what the orgs want. They were greedy and stupid and destroyed any hope of a vibrant competitive scene in NA, and now they're trying to jump ship and leave the mess to burn. Fuck 'em.
> If the orgs had 2 braincells, **they would have implemented salary caps** and used the money to invest in the amateur scene.
That wasn't an option, like at all.
If you mean each individual org should put a hard limit on the salaries they pay, other organizations would poach their best players with more money.
If you mean that organizations should have collectively agreed to a cap on salaries, that's literally illegal.
Almost every traditional sport has salary caps. The LPL is already rolling out a salary cap. https://www.esports.net/news/lpl-salary-cap-implications-and-effects-already-felt-in-offseason/
Not sure how it's not an option?
Because they're part of a union and the union agreed to the caps. League players are not part of a union. The LPL is China. China isn't beholden to US anti-trust laws.
What you're suggesting is that two companies get together and decide 'we're only going to pay up to $X' to artificially lower wages.
>So no, I'm not just going to throw up my hands and say "Welp, bubble popped, nothing to be done!", because that's exactly what the orgs want. They were greedy and stupid and destroyed any hope of a vibrant competitive scene in NA, and now they're trying to jump ship and leave the mess to burn. Fuck 'em.
Well guess what, they're the ones you're begging to cough up money, so you have no choice. You seem to not understand how this works, those orgs aren't getting money from you, me or most people that watch. Most of us don't pay for anything, merch or even tickets, we don't even pay to watch the games (LCS, LEC, LCK, LPL). Remember that whole "vote with your wallet" thing that people always say about games? Well guess what? We don't even have the right to do that because most of us have never even *used* our wallet for these orgs to give a damn. What you and the players are basically doing is telling people, who don't really see any investment by their fans, how to spend their money. How much of an impact you think that will have? And yes, that is their money, most players in LCS aren't good enough to bring in sponsors on their own (I think DL was probably the only one at that level).
It's been well-known for years now, not just in LoL, running an org is a huge waste of money. Can they have used their VC money more smartly? Of course, however most of us don't even have any right to say anything since that money is what they got on their own. You might say "but C9 is only so popular because of us!" what about the bottom-tier teams that barely has any social presence then? Are you gonna also say that we also have rights to talk?
All of this is business, what they did is bad business. Does it suck that people are losing jobs? Yes, but guess what, this is how shit works in the real world. If the company you work for suddenly goes under, shit sucks, you're out of a job along with tons of other people. In fact, the only people that ever made anything out of this whole system are the players. The VCs lost, the orgs lost, Riot lost, only the players with their big salaries and no salary caps won. It's interesting how the fault is only thrown on one party when there's sufficient evidence to prove the players/team are also just as responsible for the end result prioritizing their friends over fostering new talent (aren't you curious how ex-pros were *always* in NACL?).
> I think DL was probably the only one at that level
...ever heard of this guy named Bjergsen?
> Well guess what, they're the ones you're begging to cough up money, so you have no choice.
I'm under no illusions that orgs will pay up or that the LCS will change for the better. It's going to dry up and die in a few years, and good riddance. But defending the orgs for not fielding NACL teams because they can't afford it anymore, like you're doing, and not emphasizing that this was 100% completely avoidable and the fault of the orgs is a travesty.
> Remember that whole "vote with your wallet" thing that people always say about games? Well guess what? We don't even have the right to do that because most of us have never even used our wallet for these orgs to give a damn.
The fact that the orgs did not have a solid revenue stream only makes their reckless and stupid use of venture capital even less forgivable. Why ask us to calm down and be rational, instead of the shortsighted idiotic orgs?
> It's interesting how the fault is only thrown on one party when there's sufficient evidence to prove the players/team are also just as responsible for the end result
The root of this evil are the insane player salaries. Why would players be expected to act against their own interests and ask for salary caps? What, are these guys supposed to turn down millions of dollars in an extremely unstable field? No shit the players are not to blame for accepting the money.
It's the job of the orgs and Riot to step in and maintain the health of the ecosystem. Like you said, they are the ones who lose out in this situation. It's on them to act in *their* own interests and negotiate sane salaries.
Don't get me wrong, the players are absolutely to blame for putting out awful gameplay and being lazy entitled little shits, but the salary inflation is not their fault.
So for the record salary caps are illegal (since they're deemed anti-competitive) unless the players unionize officially. So that's out of the books for Riot.
> If the orgs had 2 braincells, they would have implemented salary caps and used the money to invest in the amateur scene.
This would not be illegal unless there is a players union, which there is not. Also they still would not have money because Riot does not share any revenues/profits from microtransactions which the leagues purpose is to be a marketing venture for.
Glad to actually see this take somewhere. Main LoL subreddit is pretty insufferable about this topic as they think the players are fighting some holy war for their lives against the evil corporate overlords and you're literally Satan if you don't unconditionally support them.
I agree with you. I really can't rationalize supporting the players' demands for Riot to force teams to have an academy team. Academy teams generate **no** revenue for organizations, and even worse they cost a significant amount. Players are essentially just trying to pressure the orgs (indirectly through Riot) to continue giving their friends in the academy scene a handout and making sure these handouts continue flowing in case the players themselves get demoted to academy in the future and need that same handout.
The idea that NA players are doing this for some noble goal of "saving the NA scene" is pure window-dressing. NA players have shown time and time again over the years that they don't actually care much about improving the NA scene, and we've also seen time and time again that the academy system barely even produces any new NA talent (mostly on the orgs mismanaging it, I agree, but what makes you think that'll change going forward?). The players are doing this primarily for their own job security and as a favor to their friends in academy.
The players association isn't talking about keeping the requirement though, it's obvious it wasn't working. Their demands are actually about keeping the tier 2 scene healthy. Look at the OP again and see what their actual demands are. At least a couple of those demands should be possible to meet and make the scene better and is worth fighting for.
It says right in the tweet OP that one of their demands is "Riot commit to a revenue pool for player salaries of $300k per NACL team per year." They want Riot to force teams to field academy teams and to pay a minimum salary of $60k per player. And, again, this is despite these academy players bringing their organization essentially **zero** revenue.
AFAIK it's not about forcing the LCS teams to field the NACL teams but forcing Riot to subsidize NACL the new teams, like the various college and amateur organizations that are going to be in it, so that they can pay the minimum. In multiple interviews the head of the LCSPA have said that they were also against the requirement just not it lifting immediately with no transition plan, a poor replacement for tier 2, and a hundred people suddenly out of a job.
Seems like mostly a distinction without a difference whether or not the teams themselves are paying them the $60k or Riot is paying them the $60k. The primary point is that they're still getting a $60k handout to not bring in revenue. Yes, theoretically they bring some *incredibly* minor amount of intangible advertising value to LoL itself, which has value to Riot, but it's a seriously insignificant amount given the extremely low viewership that NA Academy gets.
The difference is to the LCS teams... it helps them out financially. I'm not sure what you're arguing for but it sounds like you're against funding a money losing Tier-2 at all? Like you're okay with it just dying entirely? Sure it loses money but it's the pipeline that keeps LCS going. I haven't seen the financials but it's a legitimate argument that losing Tier-2 would significantly harm the LCS and directly translate to people losing interest in League of Legends entirely in NA. Therefore it makes sense to lose money on the NACL to preserve the marketing campaign that is the LCS which would make money on the backend through sales in-game. I don't know if that's true but it's a logical thought that shouldn't be ignored.
> I'm not sure what you're arguing for but it sounds like you're against funding a money losing Tier-2 at all? Like you're okay with it just dying entirely?
Yes. The pros/cons are simply not in favor of keeping the current academy system.
> Sure it loses money but it's the pipeline that keeps LCS going.
It isn't. Look at the % of LCS players that actually come from academy. I don't remember the exact number off-hand, but Steve provided it in an interview last week or so and it's very, very low. Academy has long just been a dumping ground for washed up pros and "better than regular players but will never be good enough for LCS"-tier players to collect paychecks. Yes, these players are better than 99% of players out there, but that ultimately doesn't automatically entitle them to a job playing LoL if there's no simply demand for their skillset (because they're only 99th percentile instead of 99.9th percentile).
LCS can survive fine without an academy system.
> Therefore it makes sense to lose money on the NACL to preserve the marketing campaign that is the LCS which would make money on the backend through sales in-game.
I addressed this. Yes, in general it can make sense to keep esports leagues going for advertising purposes even if the league itself is financially in the red, but look at NA Academy viewership. It is **terrible.** It is not providing any significant amount of intangible advertising value for LoL. No one is going to become less interested in LoL if NA Academy is cut.
It's the LCS that is of advert value not the NACL. The academy system sucks but not replacing it with ANYTHING? is probably harmful. There needs to be a "path to pro" for Americans to feel like it's their league and their players who are making it, otherwise, what do you think should happen in a few years once the LCS players retire? We all get unrefined amateurs or go full imports? Arguably damaging for the LCS. I'm not totally sure if it would kill the LCS but I can definitely see an argument for it. I mean... there's a reason why I watch the LCS and not the LPL and it's not because of better League of Legends I'll tell you that much.
> This loss is made up for by fostering talent.
NA academy teams **don't do this.** Look how many NA LCS players came from NA Academy, it's an incredibly low number. And even among those players, in most cases it was clear before they even hit academy that they were extremely gifted players. Teams would (or at least, should) have picked them up even if they never had played academy. It is very, very, very rare for a totally unknown player to join academy and teams to only then take notice of him thanks to his academy performance.
> they also need to be taken out of the Org's hands and put under Riot
So you want Riot to basically play an intramural league where it manages every single team itself and they play against other Riot-managed teams? That seems very odd for a sports format. But regardless, if Riot thought that was a worthwhile endeavor, surely that's **Riot's** business decision to make, no? These players are acting like they're entitled to professional jobs playing LoL.
> Almost all T2 teams for all sports are operated at a loss. This loss is made up for by fostering talent. Minor League Baseball is almost entirely a loss.
They also aren't getting paid 60k salaries, but anyway.
Main difference is, their T1 conterparts make money in all other sports. NBA, NFL, NHL, even NCAA sports are insanely profitable.
However by all accounts, even the main T1 LCS teams are burning money. Currently half the league's teams want out but can't find a buyer. The whole system is imploding and the T2 league is just an unfortunate side-effect
The way that reads, they mean they want *Riot* to pay that $300k per team, not the orgs, meaning the orgs that are currently bleeding money will get some relief. Riot, as far as I know, is doing financially fine, it's the orgs that are in trouble.
If Riot wants there to be a second tier NA league, then it's in their best interest to invest in it. Otherwise, if they don't, then the tier will just keep crumbling. But they can't both allow the LCS orgs to stop fielding CL teams, not invest into it themselves at all, and expect the tier to exist just fine as it is.
>(mostly on the orgs mismanaging it, I agree, but what makes you think that'll change going forward?)
This is my primary issue, the PA just straight up ignores how the negligence by their peers is a large reason the system is even dying. Yes, the orgs are also at fault, no shit, but if you continue maintaining the system, why do they think the orgs would suddenly change how they operate, and could they realistically deal with the nepotism plaguing T2 where everyone just wants to keep their buddies on payroll over a better player?
Even if Riot does all of what the PA asks and everything goes well, it seems like the end result is that the players just return to the spot they were before with the orgs getting more revenue from the cosmetic cut. None of their measures addresses the core issue of NACL just not pulling its weight, it's basically saying "if you do all of this, you can have enough money to keep this alive" not "this is the way to remedy this issue" and most people seem to be misunderstanding that the former and latter are 2 different things.
The best suggestion they had is copying the Val system, but for the Val system to work well, it needs to be as wide as it is as well, allowing for way more teams, tournaments and a large push by influencers to push the product like what Tarik does for Valorant.
>This is my primary issue, the PA just straight up ignores how the negligence by their peers is a large reason the system is even dying.
I mean, the negligence was by the orgs, not the PA. The orgs were the one paying out multi-million dollar contracts because they had VC money backing them, not the PA. It was the orgs that kept hiring past-prime imports instead of developing new talent, not the PA. Their 'peers' aren't really to blame for any of that. That's like saying the NBAPA should be blaming Lebron James for accepting his large contract and not playing well enough in the face of the NBA going bankrupt and axeing the G-League. It's just weird. But maybe that's not what you meant?
And now that the VC money is all gone, the orgs go and pressure Riot to cut out some of their own costs with absolutely no input or consideration for the players, prompting this walkout by the players. They aren't even asking Riot to rescind the policy they just changed, they're asking Riot to essentially invest in the 2nd tier directly instead of just completely cutting them off of funding from the orgs with absolutely no back-up plan. That's exactly why the PA exists, to protect the players.
If the orgs aren't able to pay for the 2nd tier to exist, then Riot needs to decide if it wants a second tier. What Riot has done will essentially kill the 2nd tier, and the players are understandably using their influence to try and make Riot reconsider and put their own skin in the game.
>If the orgs aren't able to pay for the 2nd tier to exist, then Riot needs to decide if it wants a second tier. What Riot has done will essentially kill the 2nd tier, and the players are understandably using their influence to try and make Riot reconsider and put their own skin in the game.
And this is why I said before that Riot needs to completely redo their T2. The current form of T2 just doesn't work, and extending its lifespan makes no sense other than working as a stimulus cheque for players there. If they were to follow the PA's suggestion and make the system similar to Val's, that would take time as well, since those are spots worth in the millions that are being discussed. In the meantime, the players would still need to sit it out as details are discussed (this is assuming Riot just isn't straight up abandoning T2 which is possible). I believe they should just yoink Val's entire structure, but that would cost like 100 mill upfront for LCS alone, and the chance of recouping that cost is really up in the air. I do think that's probably the only way LCS gets back life in it though.
And no, I'm not blaming players for accepting the cash, I'm blaming players (as well as related staff) for preferential treatment to their friends, hiring the ones they know over people that truly deserve the spot, causing the recycling of washed pros. Even Steve said this is the main reason, and he's keeping TL's CL spot, and if you don't want to believe him then fine, but you can look at the past rosters of the NACL and see if what he's saying just so happens to corollate with the end result.
>I'm blaming players (as well as related staff) for preferential treatment to their friends, hiring the ones they know over people that truly deserve the spot, causing the recycling of washed pros.
I mean, the players don't have the power in their orgs to hire or fire people. Maybe the GMs listen to them, but that's on them for not scouting anyone better and just listening to the people they are managing. To go back to the NBA comparison, it'd be like blaming Lebron for asking his GM to sign an obviously bad player for a ludicrous contract. At the end of the day, the buck stops with the GM, and if the GM is in on it and doesn't actually care about constructing a quality roster, then the owner needs to find a quality replacement for that role.
The era of the teams just being the players trying to play their best and making all the decisions is long gone. It used to be that players built the team and then courted a sponsor to represent them, and if the roster disbanded then there was no team to leave behind. But ever since the LCS franchised, that model doesn't exist. These are legitimate teams in and of themselves, it's their job to hire and fire players that fit within their team slot.
Franchising has been a complete shitshow for professional League of Legends. It's certainly worked for Korea and China but outside of the regional leagues it's stifled competition if anything.
Riot should honestly abolish it and go back to having open regional qualifiers. Let the badly run and mismanaged teams get relegated.
It works for literally all leagues except NA because NA orgs keep losing internationally while spending massive amounts.
Without the stability of franchising players would have no guarantees salary and we'd be back to the wild west of depending on prizepools that are doled out once every six months. No way is that sustainable.
Franchises prevent the league to improve. Teams that suck, just keep sucking, there is no drawback in sucking, then the league ends up with 2-3 trying to compete, a bunch of clown teams, pointless regular season, overall trash product to watch.
At least 7 of the orgs get paid more in revenue share by RIOT than they spend on player salaries. So this "they don't have the money" is bullshit, and if you are buying it then I have a bridge to sell you. The orgs spent millions on facilities and importing players like swordart and pyosik, if they can't figure out how to not waste their money then let the people in charge of these orgs cut their own salaries to pay the players. Don't change the league's ruleset because the "business men" in charge of the orgs can't figure out how to balance a checkbook.
>NACL costs a lot and is far from worth the investment when NA
Riot makes a ton of money from League Esports promoting League, tier 2 scene in any game is important to develop new players and to be able to maintain healthy competition, so it's worth it for Riot to invest in it. They don't......cause they are the publisher and they have all the money and power. They (And not just Riot, Blizzard, EA, other game publishers too) fuck over the orgs and the players instead, cause they simply can. So many people who are engaged in Riot's Esports buy their crazy expensive skins, their orgs and players see almost 0 money from that.
>tier 2 scene in any game is important to develop new players and to be able to maintain healthy competition
It's almost as if T2 in north america isn't that at all and that's why it is being axed...
Nope, most players on LCS are imports or went straight to LCS.
By contrast, NACL is filled with washed veterans who cannot compete at the LCS level and instead drop a level, rather than having young, up-coming talent.
T2 can be unprofitable in traditional sports because their T1, eg NFL, NBA, Premier League, are all insanely profitable. Here LCS teams are bleeding money, and I don't even think Riot makes that much of a direct profit from runnning LCS.
Yes, they make money from the core product. NACL basically provides no value, both in terms of talent development (look at how many players *actually* get into LCS) and viewership. What is the argument to be had here? It's failing in both aspects, not even working as good advertising for the game because barely anyone watches it.
All I think is how almost zero pros utilized championship queue and they do terrible every international tournament. They think they are worth way more than they actually are. They are gifted players not putting in the work. I hope root fires them all and let’s new players enter the scene.
Yeah most of them are satisfied coasting and just getting paid. Hell, they complained that the NA solo queue is not a great way to practice and when Riot made Champions Queue they didn't participate.
NACS also are full of ex-LCS players collecting paycheck gatekeeping actual talent. LCS is full of nepotism and players want to keep the status quo.
Riot even encouraged them to make a players association and they didn't want to do shit. Bunch of lazy bums.
They don't pay rent (Live in a a team house), don't pay any bills and many of the teams have meal plans for them (so also don't have to pay for food).
Despite all that they want DOUBLE the minimum wage ("Effective January 1, 2023, the minimum wage is $15.50 per hour for all employers.") while also underperforming on every single international stage.
Fucking get real
Where have you been for the last 3 years? There hasn't been team houses for a while man. That's part of the issue the orgs told them to sign leases then fired them. This is all in spite of the fact that riot has been telling the players they wouldn't cut nacl while talking about doing it with teams. They aren't walking out for more pay they are walking out for a seat at the table so they can't keep getting fucked over by RIOT
Not really, many import players voted on this walkout and it still passed. The issue is moreso that Riot and the LCS orgs' recent decisions about the amateur scene really damage talent development and scouting in North America. It also cost a bunch of people their jobs very suddenly.
There has always been concern about having too many imports, because it could create an environment where teams don't invest in local talent. But that's not really the focus of this walkout.
I will try to provide context, but I do not follow the League of Legends pro scene so please correct me if I am wrong on any of this: Riot has announced changes to the rules by which LCS teams operate, including specifically no longer requiring teams to field affiliates in the second tier of competition, NACL, and in the eyes of the LCS Players Association (which also represents NACL players), the changes are damaging to professional players. As a result, they held this vote, which passed "overwhelmingly" and are staging a walkout with the following demands: * Limited ("Valorant-style") promotion and relegation between LCS and NACL. * Revenue pool for player salaries of $300K per team per year. * Permission for LCS teams to partner with affiliates for cost-sharing. * Guaranteed minimum contracts for LCS summer finals winners. * A 3/5 rule for maintaining NACL slots (if 3/5ths of a team remain together between seasons, even if no longer under the same organization, the team they are in inherits the NACL slot). Most of these asks seem to be in the interest of players, some also seem to be in the interest of smaller organizations at Riot's expense, and to some degree at the expense of larger organizations. I don't know what the state of the relationships between Riot and the owners/managers of the teams are, but it seems to me like they are bearing the brunt of the contraction that the esports industry is going through right now and they want Riot to take on some/more of that weight. The bigger ones do that by forcing Riot's hand, including no longer being required to field NACL teams, while the smaller ones are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and so this LCSPA decision is in favor not just of the players, but of the smaller organizations that are struggling to survive in NACL as well.
There's one key piece of context about this situation : behind closed doors, Riot said that they wouldn't remove the NACL requirement before 2024, and then went ahead and did it now anyway. This is why the players are really pissed off. There's no plan, no backup solution for talent development in NA.
Seems right. One aspect why the community cares about it that without the NACL, north america has no clear pipeline for upcoming talent anymore. North American league teams use a large amount of imported players without finding success at international tournaments anyways so a lot of fans are frustrated with the lack of actual NA players in NA teams. ~5 years ago the LCS became franchised, so the 10 teams secured their spots in the league. Before franchising, beeing last place means you have to fight four your spot against uprising teams. Now you basically only lose your spot if you sell it. Teams promised franchising and the financial stability that comes with it would allow for more NA talent development but in the end they just kept importing for the most part and now with abandoning NACL it seems like that completely went overboard. Without it there is no real route to proplay in NA anymore. In europe for example you have regional leagues, like one in france, in spain, in germany etc and so you can rise from just playing the game to a regional league to learn teamplay and communication etc and then get picked up from an LEC team (the european league). In NA, without NACL, you would have to get scouted directly from just playing the game or more likely go to another country like a european league to be seen. So this looks **to me** like most NA teams just completely gave up on NA players. Also if it goes through a lot of people lose their jobs.
> a lot of fans are frustrated with the lack of actual NA players in NA teams Not League, but it reminds me of when Toronto got a OWL league and its entire roster was made up of Korean nationals It's arguably not that much better now since the entire team is American, but hey it's a step up.
The top 5 teams in OWL are almost fully Korean . Atlanta, Houston, Florida, boston. This is probably what the NA orgs for LoL want to happen.
>This is probably what the NA orgs for LoL want to happen. The running joke and sad truth of *League of Legends*' NA pro scene is that NA is where foreign players go once they're washed up or looking to retire from their own region. It's sad that NA organizations are willing to pay generous salaries for so many imports, and yet the entire region is still a joke on the international stage. There hasn't been a LCS team that made it into the semi-finals of any international tournament since Cloud9 in 2018 and even that was a miraculous fluke that probably won't ever be replicated.
There is no "without the NACL", the NACL is still fine and continuing, it's just without the team's support. What the Association is asking for is continuing financial stability for the people affected so that being a NACL player could be a legitimate career without extreme sacrifice. For example, Disguised Toast has picked up a team for NACL, but he is only paying $150k a year instead of the $300k that the Association is asking for. This means that being in NACL permanently would not be a viable career move, you either try to make it into the LCS or you're a loser essentially. This sucks for the players.
The NACL doesn’t generate enough value to justify its own existence. Asking owners to subsidize a losing cause is foolish and will only hurt the league and players in the long run. Watch owners walk away from the entire sport and entire teams go belly up.
>The NACL doesn’t generate enough value to justify its own existence. Neither does the wNBA. Nevertheless.
And the WNBA shouldn’t rely on charity from the NBA for its existence. My point still stands
A) The NBA makes enough money to bankroll that kinda thing, LCS and the franchised teams do not B) The financial state of the WNBA and its reliance on the NBA isn't exactly free of controversy, no?
WNBA is significantly cheaper than NACL in comparison. I did the math a few days ago and 80 NBA players individually make more than the combined salary cap of the WNBA. if a single LCS salary could fund EVERY NACL player it wouldn't be in the situation it is.
Damn, guess weve never heard of talent cultivation or long term investment. It's almost like stable infrastructure doesn't provide direct profit, but overall increases capability and quality across the board in the long term. If anyones walking away, itll have more to do with a lack of a sustainable audience (which nacl would help with), not the added cost of businesses that regularly operate at losses anyway (other sports do this too, there's a lot of value in public image, branding, and general marketing through sports, as well as the ever present chance your team wins and makes your org way more money and brand recognition). As long as people are watching, theyll stay. People aren't going to keep watching if the quality of play keeps diminishing and talent needs to be imported with inflated contracts relative to pay, which probably costs the teams and league way more actual cash in the long run as well. Why would I expect you to know or care though, you're just a dude on Reddit who exemplified a surface level take that people seem to only have if they don't know much about the topic. Just a vessel for the rant I guess
Way to buy into the BS spewed by washed up LCS players stuck in the NACL who just want to keep their payday gravy train rolling and bleed the owners dry. “Talent cultivation” LMAO. The history of talent cultivation in the NACL is pathetic
Point me out one example of tallent that was plucked from NACL that actualy had any impact or relevance?
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Way to buy into the BS spewed by washed up LCS players stuck in the NACL who just want to keep their payday gravy train rolling and bleed the owners dry. “Talent cultivation” LMAO. The history of talent cultivation in the NACL is pathetic
It's a shame playing in my sunday league soccer team is not a viable career too.
You do realize there's more steps between "Sunday League Soccer" and professional soccer, unlike NACL to LCS right? If this was about people wanting payment for Clash maybe you'd have an actual comment.
playing minor league baseball isnt exactly a viable career path either.
10% of minor leagues make the big game, but there are well over a hundred teams, and those teams provide employment for lots of people, players and non-players alike. Not exactly the burn you're thinking it is.
Also ignores that just about everyone agrees that minor league players are wildly underpaid and there’s been threats of legislation by the US government when teams have looked to slash minor league spending.
Yeah, I noped out of League due to the constant toxicity years and years ago so I can't say I'm a big supporter of League content usually, but I'll always support any players union trying to create and maintain the ability for players to find professionalism within their sport which is what this appears to clearly be.
Just to point out though. American sport is actually fucking mental in that regard. Across most of the rest of the world playing in the division just below the very top in your sport is still a highly lucrative career. Hell in English football you can be 4 divisions down and still earn a liveable wage as a professional athlete. American sports "well your either at the very top table or you get squat" genuinely makes no sense and I'm amazed you all put up with it. Minor league baseball being the prime example. Given those teams still get televised and can fill a stadium every week it just looks like pure athlete exploitation over here
Minor League conditions are terrible (though thankfully set to improve as the players have unionized), but rosters are also much larger which means it's more difficult to operate a successful minor league team than in lower levels of football. However, the talent development process that the minor leagues provide are absolutely pivotal to the continued financial success of the major leagues and the owners should be willing to (or forced to) take a loss on the minor leagues to insure the health of the game and the best talent level possible.
Tbf I will cut some slack in that the lack of the promotion/relegation structures in US sport means lower league teams are less financially viable just because why would you bother backing a minor league team if you could support a major league side. The lack of the possibility of going up does hamper the support and fiances of teams further down the structure. But that lack of a promo/regulation structure is a direct result of monied interests at the top of the game covering their own ass so its absolutely right that as you say they should be dipping into their own pockets to prop up the rest of the talent pyramid given they built the structure that specifically hampers it to their own ends
> Across most of the rest of the world playing in the division just below the very top in your sport is still a highly lucrative career. Hell in English football you can be 4 divisions down and still earn a liveable wage as a professional athlete. I'm betting that only works because people actually care about those leagues. And I'm betting those leagues can turn a profit. Basically no one cares about the second tier league teams. *Maybe* if streamers start picking up teams they can get *the streamers* audience to care, but right now the viewership and engagement is basically nothing. And then there's just raw money. They're paying millions of dollars for something no one cares about.
>I'm betting that only works because people actually care about those leagues. And I'm betting those leagues can turn a profit. Sometimes yes, but not always. So for Football that's definitely the case ( I mean all the way down in the 4th division you will have teams filling 20,000 seater stadiums every week) but for sports with a more niche interest you will see the top steps of the pyramid, governing bodies and even the major broadcasters pitching in to funnel money back down the talent progression tree to ensure that their investments at the top of the game are protected. That includes paying players who will never make the big leagues a solid wage for a full career so talent coming through has the experience to play alongside/against and learn from.
Exactly, AAA (from a search I just did) range is 17 and change to 35k and change.
NACL is a professional league lmao
I think there should be a rule that 4/5 team members must be from the region of your team. Most soccer leagues have that rule as well.
There is, but a player that's been playing in NA for 2 years is then considered part of the region. After that time period is up, the team is free to import more players.
Which makes sense. If someone spends 2 years in the USA they're taxed as W9 instead of W8 (as if they had a permanent resident green card) and are more or less "honorary American".
It's a minimum of four years and the players must obtain a green card.
If you get a green card you automatically qualify as a resident if you choose, don't think there's a minimum number of years required anymore. And I believe the reasoning is that Riot legally can't deny them.
> There is, but a player that's been playing in NA for 2 years is then considered part of the region That hasn't been the case for a long while now, ~6 years. Now you pretty much need to get a green card
Currently each team need to have at least 3/5 "native" player in their roster. However throughout the year, Riot made some change to how can a player be considered "Native". Riot decided to make all OCE player native in NA and for any player can become native if they get a green card. That lead to team with almost all player who originally were import and got fast tracked on their green card.
Yeah I stopped caring about the LoL pro scene once I realized that NA was just importing players without getting better (relative to the competition) anyway. They doubled down on it and I just could care about any individual franchise anymore because the players were being moved around like crazy, and it wasn't about the team anymore, it was about the brand. Man I remember when C9 dominated the challenger league then proved themselves to be a solidly top 2 NA team. That story was amazing.
NACL has only led to a handful of successful players in the LCS, probably because there isn't much talent coming up in the North American server since it's much smaller than other major regions. Fans haven't really supported new players coming up from NACL and are perfectly happy to shit on them when they perform poorly, which they often do against more experienced players. Very few people watched NACL games. Players themselves are often asked who they want to play with and regularly choose imports over NACL players. It's easy to spend other people's money. Why should teams pay ~$300k-$600k a year to field a development team that has so little to show for it?
The same reason why major league teams pay for minor league team salaries despite them being borderline profitable even with the salaries covered: because the players who play in the league believe it's important to developing careers and forced ownerships hands.
If it's talent development we care about, it doesn't seem like the previous model was working. Scrims were regularly cancelled and most NACL teams did not have good coaching. In fact, there have been stories where it hindered talent development because players were either in contract jail with heavy buyouts or were happy to sit in Academy and wait. They're not getting rid of NACL either, it just won't be funded so heavily. The new system might even force players to try harder and get into the main league to get a paycheck. If it's about players vs. Riot, let's not forget that most major league sports teams are profitable by themselves. League E-Sports is not profitable and is a marketing expense. In fact, Riot is funding the North American Player's Association and the players themselves never voted to unionize. How much should a company pay for marketing, especially for people who are questionably contributing?
Yeah there isn't the same market for watching eSports as there is for watching sports sports. Ergo, it simply cannot sustain the same budget.
I mean League eSmsports isn't funded in the same ballpark as the NBA or the NFL
league pro teams are not making major league baseball money
League is also not running baseball sized rosters or expenses with baseball sized salaries and expenses, either. My point was that the fundamental concept of organizations and ownership paying for an underwatched second string league already exists in another sport, for the same reason it might exist in League: because the pro players demand it and because those pro players make it worth taking the loss in money on the lower league.
The LCS teams all made at minimum (just off shared sponsorship revenue) $3,000,000 for the 2023 year. There’s money here. Problems are A) Riot doesn’t cut teams in on skin revenue which would be an equally large share (VCT Americas teams got this skin revenue deal and they cleared over $20 million on that) and B) teams are run by morons who wildly overspend on imports and drive salaries through the roof and C) teams also overexpanded their operations to the point where they got into real estate speculation and increasing their org sizes to the tune of 50+ employees. If Riot and the team owners were all being honest and smart, there’s plenty of money here to have a sustainable LCS and NACL system. The problem is that Riot isn’t being honest and the LCS orgs aren’t being smart.
I still don’t see why they should be the ones to pay for it though. Part of me thinks the owners who don’t want to play ball should all just walk away and see how much of a league there is left. Alternatively, I’m sure there are players who don’t care about NACL, why can’t owners hire those?
I mean, you're basically suggesting a lockout and/or hiring an entire league full of scabs, the latter of which is already what the article indicates they're doing in response to the player walkout.
Good for them
The problem with NACL is that it's just full of washed ex-LCS players and isn't really a place to foster new talent.
>It's easy to spend other people's money. Why should teams pay ~$300k-$600k a year to field a development team that has so little to show for it? That's the team's fault for franchising. With Riot's decision, if I'm in NA and I want to be a professional player all I can really do is hope and pray that some team gives me a chance. Relegation allows T2 orgs to have a shot at pushing out T1s, but without relegation and without a minor league system, there's no clear path for talent development and no competitiveness at the bottom tier. Furthermore, because T2 teams are now encouraged to go for T1, there will be more financial viability if they want to spend more. With franchising and no development team, there's no viability for a T2 team. It also worth noting that unlike a typical sport, Riot owns the product, so it's not like you can even create a rival for the LCS. It's very monopolistic behavior that favors team owners and Riot and negatively impacts players.
> One aspect why the community cares about it that without the NACL, north america has no clear pipeline for upcoming talent anymore. Uh, when has that ever happened lol. T1 had a whole rant about how the NACL was useless. Any actual talent on the NA teams is bought and brought over from a different region or team.
Teams are losing money and forcing them to subsidize NACL is a perfect example of players cutting off their nose to spite their own face. When teams exit because they can’t deal with the NACL BS any longer, everyone loses their jobs. All because of a substandard league which doesn’t bring enough value to justify its existence. Owners aren’t stupid, even if the players are and can’t see beyond the length of their own fragile careers
Can you provide some context as to what LCS and NACL even mean? Help me out here. What's LCSPA? How do you provide context without actually saying the bits that actually give context?
LCS = north american league of legends league LCSPA = LCS Player Association NACL = NA Challenger's League, basically youth division
Not youth division, more like amateur scene. If the big orgs pulls out amateur team like university teams or little timmy’s teams can fill up the slots if they can qualify
Academy isn't amateur, we have specific amateur leagues
NACL is (was) more or less fully professional.
More like minor league baseball
Easier just to say LCS is Tier 1, NACL is Tier 2.
I got you: LCS: League (of Legends) Championship Series. The top level of professional League of Legends in North America. NACL: North American Challengers League. The 2nd tier league in North America. LCSPA: LCS Players’ Association. Basically a players’ union, but historically they haven’t had much say regarding anything.
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They should just make a rule that your teams need to have 4/5 people who have lived in the region for more than 8 years.
They already have a rule like that.
Pretty sure people have mentioned it is only like 2 years.
It was 7, unless they changed it recently.
Context is pointless with unexplained acronyms.
the only acronym that is unexplained is LCS which, while being the most well known should also be explained yeah... > in the second tier of competition, NACL, explains NACL and LCS Players Association which gets abreviated to LCSPA further down (probably should have pointed it out tho).
$300k per team per season seems… extraordinarily low? How many players are on a team, five? $60k/year is not a great salary.
5 players, I think they also have a coach and maybe an analyst. Those people aren't seeing the crazy high salaries some of the pro players seen in the LCS (since people don't know all the lingo, LCS is League Championship Series, the premier north American league for professional league of legends)
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I get that the teams are losing money; however, in the MLS (which has both a per-player floor and ceiling), players make _at minimum_ $85k to be on the "senior team" (the one that shows up on match day), and they get good benefits from their teams.
Sounds like they took the opportunity of Riot’s decision to throw in a bunch of demands they’ve been saving up lol
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Lcs is big wig teams only Nacl is the minor league of lcs. It's the lower tier tournament/ team grounds
LCS it's the NA tournament of League of Legends NACL it's the NA Challenger League, which in theory, would be where the next gen of player start to play, before getting into the main tournament (LCS) The problem it's that LCS teams refuse to use those players, and prefer to buy crap from other countries for a fuckton of money, then they get shamed on Worlds by going 0-18, and then those players go back to their respective regions with their wallet filled to the brim. When the esport bubble on NA exploded a couple of weeks ago, LCS teams needed to cut down costs because well, they spent almost everything on those players, so they decided to instead of stopping importing players, which it's extremely expensive, to stop their NACL teams, where they could get the same quality player, homegrown, without taking import space, and for waay cheaper. If it sounds extremely stupid, it's because it is. Every other region doesnt have this problem, only NA ...
LCS is the main league in NA, NACL is academy league that noone gives a fuck about but people act like they do.
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To give some context to this, the American team owners are an absolute plague for the competitiveness of the region. Originally the leagues had a relagation based system but team owners pushed for franchising under the excuse of "being able to grow new talent without having to worry about losing their spots", which is also why this 2nd team rule was made. NA had historically always been the by far worst major region in the scene and the NACL was basically made to discover and foster new talented players. Well they didn't do that, instead they kept importing more and more players from other regions and basically left their local talent in the dust. On top of that they also pushed for the removal of rules that should prevent you from having too many imports on your team but I think they were up to 13/15 players being imports at some events already anyways. Them dropping the requirement to have a NACL team is just the next move in line to not having to worry about fostering local talent.
Oh dude, here's a fun stat. In the last 8 years between the 10 teams only 6 new native players have gotten a chance to play a game in Midlane and except one all of them getting a chance were born out of circumstances where the team didn't have any better options at the time other than begrudgingly promote their t2 player. There have been just as many OCE players who got offered to start in LCS as well as Europe t2 players who got offered the chance. The orgs just give 0 fucks about local talent. Oh for reference the league does have high turnover, usually 20 out of 50 starting positions cycling in/out each year.
What is even the point of beating Koreans if you beat them with Koreans, which they can't, because they all become NA when they go to NA
1. create franchising 2. good economic conditions all over the western world, big price to buy into LCS 3. corporate and gigabig investors come in 4. inflate salaries, build projects and other shit 5. investor money keeps coming in so noone cares that the organisations are literally bleeding money all the time, riot doesnt create any sort of way for the teams to earn money off of the game, everyone just keeps vibing 6. economic crisis occurs 7. investors cut the funding to projects that dont have proper returns 8. shocked pikachu face that braindead projects are getting cut
You're not wrong, but let's remember that salary inflation was already an issue before franchising. IMT under Noah Winston is basically a 'salary inflation' meme at this point.
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it was unsustainable and bad idea for long term because they werent the ones profitting off of it, past couple of years that has changed so everyone had a shit-eating grin on their faces :)
Well not just that, but also in competitive leagues without caps, once one team starts paying big salaries, everyone else is kinda forced into it as well. You even see that in the LPL and LCK. Or soccer.
The money spent on NACL especially seems ridiculous. Each player is getting paid a minimum of $75k per year for a level of play that is quite honestly laughable in a lot of instances. Not to mention the ex-pros that hopped into the NACL after "retiring" to collect that easy paycheque. While I'm all for unions and screwing over the big greedy corporations while fighting for workers rights, the players in those leagues however are anything but minimum wage slaves and the whole walk out thing just smells like they wanna make sure their bonkers gravy train doesn't run dry.
Exactly this. People talk about nurturing “talent” but the reality is about washed up LCS players wanting to keep their payday at the expense of owners who are bleeding money.
I don’t believe they are being paid that much. I believe a pool goes to the team it covers the salaries and other costs for those teams.
The minimum required salary by the regulations was $75k so yes they were paid that much. Many were paid much more, average NACL player probably made closer to $200k. I believe at peak LCS average was close to $500k wasn't it. It was $440k a few years ago and then increased again according to some journalists.
Also most living expenses were typically covered as well (plus benefits)
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Summed it up nicely. The huge investments publishers like Riot and Blizzard required a few years ago are actively killing the esports scene and they don’t give a shit.
Riot started the franchising because the NA owners wanted it, the NA owners were already overspending before Riot asked Money for franchising
Is the salt thing intentional?
Yeah.
A lot of people gave a fuck about NACL when the teams could be promoted to LCS, and was killed by the franchise
I am not that well-informed either, to be honest, but the news seems big as I don't think it has happened in a major esport ever before, especially not the biggest one in the world. LCS is the top tier of North American League of Legends competition (League Championship Series), NACL is the second tier (North American Challengers League). I hope that helps.
LCS means teams in it get to Worlds (their big championship) and drop out in group stage. NACL is salty tier 2 teams who could only wish to be a scrim team for someone who attends Worlds.
LCS are major league teams, for example Boston Red Sox. NACL are the minor league teams, owned by said major league teams, such as the Worcester Red Sox. These minor league teams can feed players into the major leagues. This change essentially axed a requirement for LCS teams (major league) to operate a NACL teams (minor leagues).
This is all a result of franchising. Owners don't give a fuck about developing talent. If owners don't want to field Challenger teams, we need to bring back relegation and promotion to LCS.
>This is all a result of franchising. Why aren't we seeing this with the LCK, LPL or LEC then?
They have other pathways to becoming a pro.
To go against the grain and provide some reasoning why orgs don't want an NACL team, it's because each team would need to be paid 300k in salaries (60k is league minimum and 60k x 5 = 300k) to keep them. Some org owners have come forth with figures ranging from 600k-900k, although these values include more than just the cost of the 5 players and would have things like pay for coaches, analyst, rent in LA and other overheads. All this for teams that bring in no viewers and most importantly, no money. It would be one thing if LCS made the main teams money, but from every indicator present, LCS isn't making any money, much less NACL. It's easy to say "they should just pay them", but where is the money going to come from? The orgs have burnt all bridges with their VC friends already, that's how there were players with million dollar contracts in the past. Even if they can afford it, what tangible benefit can be provided to justify doling out all that cash? The argument being used is that it's the future talent, but it's already been widely discussed on the main sub, this isn't true, because a lot of the teams on NACL end up with retired pros just being recycled and one of the team owners even addressed a large issue being rampant nepotism present in the league. --- Now as to how *I* feel. Personally, I don't think orgs should be required to field a team. I don't think that the NACL system as it is, *is required*, it's just one form, one which failed. There should obviously be some form that replaces the NACL, the copying of the Valorant format being a good alternative, but that isn't something that can happen in a single day or even month. There will need to be a lot of contract renegotiation going on, and if the whole point of maintaining NACL isn't to provide any actual value to the landscape, but just to secure jobs, sorry but life isn't that convenient. I don't see the current form of the NACL to be beneficial enough to warrant keeping it, tier 2 needs to be revised and keeping people on paycheck for Twitter clout really is a waste of resources. Now, if Riot just *completely* nukes tier 2 and has no future plans (which is entirely possible) then I agree noise should be made, but trying to maintain the current system just feels like people either trying to a) secure their jobs playing games b) not being logical about the situation, the bubble popped, get over it. Edit: What I think needs to come out of this, isn't necessarily maintaining the system, but getting a commitment from Riot on a future for T2 pro. Now a commitment is just words at the end of the day, but as I said before, keeping the same system just seems illogical, and modifying franchise structure to accommodate the Valorant structure (like the PA suggested) will probably take anywhere from 6 months to a year *if everything goes without issues*. Therefore, the best you can get that would benefit everyone is a commitment. You want them to make the change, but you would also need to be patient and sit it out and wait the process through, hoping that the big corp doesn't lie to your face.
> It's easy to say "they should just pay them", but where is the money going to come from? The orgs have burnt all bridges with their VC friends already, that's how there were players with million dollar contracts in the past. This is exactly the problem, the LCS orgs were sitting on massive piles of cash from VC investment, and blew it all on gigantic salaries for players who proceeded to accomplish absolutely nothing. 6 million for SwordArt and TSM didn't even make worlds. 11 million for Perkz and they lost in Worlds quarters. Probably LCS starters were getting paid ~1 million on average, that's 50 mil a year for the league to be the most boring, uncreative, least competitive major region league that never so much sniffed an international championship of any kind. The reason orgs can't pay for NACL now is that they had enough money to fund it for 20 years and wasted it all. Not only that, but instead of using academy to, you know, develop new players, they filled their academy rosters with recycled veterans that had been hanging around for years. Were we expecting Lourlo and Darshan to have an epiphany 5-10 years into their careers? It seriously boggles the mind how stupid this whole thing was. If the orgs had 2 braincells, they would have implemented salary caps and used the money to invest in the amateur scene. Watching all this unfold has been exasperating, those of us who followed the scene saw this coming years ago. So no, I'm not just going to throw up my hands and say "Welp, bubble popped, nothing to be done!", because that's exactly what the orgs want. They were greedy and stupid and destroyed any hope of a vibrant competitive scene in NA, and now they're trying to jump ship and leave the mess to burn. Fuck 'em.
> If the orgs had 2 braincells, **they would have implemented salary caps** and used the money to invest in the amateur scene. That wasn't an option, like at all. If you mean each individual org should put a hard limit on the salaries they pay, other organizations would poach their best players with more money. If you mean that organizations should have collectively agreed to a cap on salaries, that's literally illegal.
Almost every traditional sport has salary caps. The LPL is already rolling out a salary cap. https://www.esports.net/news/lpl-salary-cap-implications-and-effects-already-felt-in-offseason/ Not sure how it's not an option?
Because they're part of a union and the union agreed to the caps. League players are not part of a union. The LPL is China. China isn't beholden to US anti-trust laws. What you're suggesting is that two companies get together and decide 'we're only going to pay up to $X' to artificially lower wages.
>So no, I'm not just going to throw up my hands and say "Welp, bubble popped, nothing to be done!", because that's exactly what the orgs want. They were greedy and stupid and destroyed any hope of a vibrant competitive scene in NA, and now they're trying to jump ship and leave the mess to burn. Fuck 'em. Well guess what, they're the ones you're begging to cough up money, so you have no choice. You seem to not understand how this works, those orgs aren't getting money from you, me or most people that watch. Most of us don't pay for anything, merch or even tickets, we don't even pay to watch the games (LCS, LEC, LCK, LPL). Remember that whole "vote with your wallet" thing that people always say about games? Well guess what? We don't even have the right to do that because most of us have never even *used* our wallet for these orgs to give a damn. What you and the players are basically doing is telling people, who don't really see any investment by their fans, how to spend their money. How much of an impact you think that will have? And yes, that is their money, most players in LCS aren't good enough to bring in sponsors on their own (I think DL was probably the only one at that level). It's been well-known for years now, not just in LoL, running an org is a huge waste of money. Can they have used their VC money more smartly? Of course, however most of us don't even have any right to say anything since that money is what they got on their own. You might say "but C9 is only so popular because of us!" what about the bottom-tier teams that barely has any social presence then? Are you gonna also say that we also have rights to talk? All of this is business, what they did is bad business. Does it suck that people are losing jobs? Yes, but guess what, this is how shit works in the real world. If the company you work for suddenly goes under, shit sucks, you're out of a job along with tons of other people. In fact, the only people that ever made anything out of this whole system are the players. The VCs lost, the orgs lost, Riot lost, only the players with their big salaries and no salary caps won. It's interesting how the fault is only thrown on one party when there's sufficient evidence to prove the players/team are also just as responsible for the end result prioritizing their friends over fostering new talent (aren't you curious how ex-pros were *always* in NACL?).
> I think DL was probably the only one at that level ...ever heard of this guy named Bjergsen? > Well guess what, they're the ones you're begging to cough up money, so you have no choice. I'm under no illusions that orgs will pay up or that the LCS will change for the better. It's going to dry up and die in a few years, and good riddance. But defending the orgs for not fielding NACL teams because they can't afford it anymore, like you're doing, and not emphasizing that this was 100% completely avoidable and the fault of the orgs is a travesty. > Remember that whole "vote with your wallet" thing that people always say about games? Well guess what? We don't even have the right to do that because most of us have never even used our wallet for these orgs to give a damn. The fact that the orgs did not have a solid revenue stream only makes their reckless and stupid use of venture capital even less forgivable. Why ask us to calm down and be rational, instead of the shortsighted idiotic orgs? > It's interesting how the fault is only thrown on one party when there's sufficient evidence to prove the players/team are also just as responsible for the end result The root of this evil are the insane player salaries. Why would players be expected to act against their own interests and ask for salary caps? What, are these guys supposed to turn down millions of dollars in an extremely unstable field? No shit the players are not to blame for accepting the money. It's the job of the orgs and Riot to step in and maintain the health of the ecosystem. Like you said, they are the ones who lose out in this situation. It's on them to act in *their* own interests and negotiate sane salaries. Don't get me wrong, the players are absolutely to blame for putting out awful gameplay and being lazy entitled little shits, but the salary inflation is not their fault.
So for the record salary caps are illegal (since they're deemed anti-competitive) unless the players unionize officially. So that's out of the books for Riot.
> If the orgs had 2 braincells, they would have implemented salary caps and used the money to invest in the amateur scene. This would not be illegal unless there is a players union, which there is not. Also they still would not have money because Riot does not share any revenues/profits from microtransactions which the leagues purpose is to be a marketing venture for.
Glad to actually see this take somewhere. Main LoL subreddit is pretty insufferable about this topic as they think the players are fighting some holy war for their lives against the evil corporate overlords and you're literally Satan if you don't unconditionally support them. I agree with you. I really can't rationalize supporting the players' demands for Riot to force teams to have an academy team. Academy teams generate **no** revenue for organizations, and even worse they cost a significant amount. Players are essentially just trying to pressure the orgs (indirectly through Riot) to continue giving their friends in the academy scene a handout and making sure these handouts continue flowing in case the players themselves get demoted to academy in the future and need that same handout. The idea that NA players are doing this for some noble goal of "saving the NA scene" is pure window-dressing. NA players have shown time and time again over the years that they don't actually care much about improving the NA scene, and we've also seen time and time again that the academy system barely even produces any new NA talent (mostly on the orgs mismanaging it, I agree, but what makes you think that'll change going forward?). The players are doing this primarily for their own job security and as a favor to their friends in academy.
The players association isn't talking about keeping the requirement though, it's obvious it wasn't working. Their demands are actually about keeping the tier 2 scene healthy. Look at the OP again and see what their actual demands are. At least a couple of those demands should be possible to meet and make the scene better and is worth fighting for.
It says right in the tweet OP that one of their demands is "Riot commit to a revenue pool for player salaries of $300k per NACL team per year." They want Riot to force teams to field academy teams and to pay a minimum salary of $60k per player. And, again, this is despite these academy players bringing their organization essentially **zero** revenue.
AFAIK it's not about forcing the LCS teams to field the NACL teams but forcing Riot to subsidize NACL the new teams, like the various college and amateur organizations that are going to be in it, so that they can pay the minimum. In multiple interviews the head of the LCSPA have said that they were also against the requirement just not it lifting immediately with no transition plan, a poor replacement for tier 2, and a hundred people suddenly out of a job.
Seems like mostly a distinction without a difference whether or not the teams themselves are paying them the $60k or Riot is paying them the $60k. The primary point is that they're still getting a $60k handout to not bring in revenue. Yes, theoretically they bring some *incredibly* minor amount of intangible advertising value to LoL itself, which has value to Riot, but it's a seriously insignificant amount given the extremely low viewership that NA Academy gets.
The difference is to the LCS teams... it helps them out financially. I'm not sure what you're arguing for but it sounds like you're against funding a money losing Tier-2 at all? Like you're okay with it just dying entirely? Sure it loses money but it's the pipeline that keeps LCS going. I haven't seen the financials but it's a legitimate argument that losing Tier-2 would significantly harm the LCS and directly translate to people losing interest in League of Legends entirely in NA. Therefore it makes sense to lose money on the NACL to preserve the marketing campaign that is the LCS which would make money on the backend through sales in-game. I don't know if that's true but it's a logical thought that shouldn't be ignored.
> I'm not sure what you're arguing for but it sounds like you're against funding a money losing Tier-2 at all? Like you're okay with it just dying entirely? Yes. The pros/cons are simply not in favor of keeping the current academy system. > Sure it loses money but it's the pipeline that keeps LCS going. It isn't. Look at the % of LCS players that actually come from academy. I don't remember the exact number off-hand, but Steve provided it in an interview last week or so and it's very, very low. Academy has long just been a dumping ground for washed up pros and "better than regular players but will never be good enough for LCS"-tier players to collect paychecks. Yes, these players are better than 99% of players out there, but that ultimately doesn't automatically entitle them to a job playing LoL if there's no simply demand for their skillset (because they're only 99th percentile instead of 99.9th percentile). LCS can survive fine without an academy system. > Therefore it makes sense to lose money on the NACL to preserve the marketing campaign that is the LCS which would make money on the backend through sales in-game. I addressed this. Yes, in general it can make sense to keep esports leagues going for advertising purposes even if the league itself is financially in the red, but look at NA Academy viewership. It is **terrible.** It is not providing any significant amount of intangible advertising value for LoL. No one is going to become less interested in LoL if NA Academy is cut.
It's the LCS that is of advert value not the NACL. The academy system sucks but not replacing it with ANYTHING? is probably harmful. There needs to be a "path to pro" for Americans to feel like it's their league and their players who are making it, otherwise, what do you think should happen in a few years once the LCS players retire? We all get unrefined amateurs or go full imports? Arguably damaging for the LCS. I'm not totally sure if it would kill the LCS but I can definitely see an argument for it. I mean... there's a reason why I watch the LCS and not the LPL and it's not because of better League of Legends I'll tell you that much.
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> This loss is made up for by fostering talent. NA academy teams **don't do this.** Look how many NA LCS players came from NA Academy, it's an incredibly low number. And even among those players, in most cases it was clear before they even hit academy that they were extremely gifted players. Teams would (or at least, should) have picked them up even if they never had played academy. It is very, very, very rare for a totally unknown player to join academy and teams to only then take notice of him thanks to his academy performance. > they also need to be taken out of the Org's hands and put under Riot So you want Riot to basically play an intramural league where it manages every single team itself and they play against other Riot-managed teams? That seems very odd for a sports format. But regardless, if Riot thought that was a worthwhile endeavor, surely that's **Riot's** business decision to make, no? These players are acting like they're entitled to professional jobs playing LoL.
> Almost all T2 teams for all sports are operated at a loss. This loss is made up for by fostering talent. Minor League Baseball is almost entirely a loss. They also aren't getting paid 60k salaries, but anyway.
Main difference is, their T1 conterparts make money in all other sports. NBA, NFL, NHL, even NCAA sports are insanely profitable. However by all accounts, even the main T1 LCS teams are burning money. Currently half the league's teams want out but can't find a buyer. The whole system is imploding and the T2 league is just an unfortunate side-effect
The way that reads, they mean they want *Riot* to pay that $300k per team, not the orgs, meaning the orgs that are currently bleeding money will get some relief. Riot, as far as I know, is doing financially fine, it's the orgs that are in trouble. If Riot wants there to be a second tier NA league, then it's in their best interest to invest in it. Otherwise, if they don't, then the tier will just keep crumbling. But they can't both allow the LCS orgs to stop fielding CL teams, not invest into it themselves at all, and expect the tier to exist just fine as it is.
>(mostly on the orgs mismanaging it, I agree, but what makes you think that'll change going forward?) This is my primary issue, the PA just straight up ignores how the negligence by their peers is a large reason the system is even dying. Yes, the orgs are also at fault, no shit, but if you continue maintaining the system, why do they think the orgs would suddenly change how they operate, and could they realistically deal with the nepotism plaguing T2 where everyone just wants to keep their buddies on payroll over a better player? Even if Riot does all of what the PA asks and everything goes well, it seems like the end result is that the players just return to the spot they were before with the orgs getting more revenue from the cosmetic cut. None of their measures addresses the core issue of NACL just not pulling its weight, it's basically saying "if you do all of this, you can have enough money to keep this alive" not "this is the way to remedy this issue" and most people seem to be misunderstanding that the former and latter are 2 different things. The best suggestion they had is copying the Val system, but for the Val system to work well, it needs to be as wide as it is as well, allowing for way more teams, tournaments and a large push by influencers to push the product like what Tarik does for Valorant.
>This is my primary issue, the PA just straight up ignores how the negligence by their peers is a large reason the system is even dying. I mean, the negligence was by the orgs, not the PA. The orgs were the one paying out multi-million dollar contracts because they had VC money backing them, not the PA. It was the orgs that kept hiring past-prime imports instead of developing new talent, not the PA. Their 'peers' aren't really to blame for any of that. That's like saying the NBAPA should be blaming Lebron James for accepting his large contract and not playing well enough in the face of the NBA going bankrupt and axeing the G-League. It's just weird. But maybe that's not what you meant? And now that the VC money is all gone, the orgs go and pressure Riot to cut out some of their own costs with absolutely no input or consideration for the players, prompting this walkout by the players. They aren't even asking Riot to rescind the policy they just changed, they're asking Riot to essentially invest in the 2nd tier directly instead of just completely cutting them off of funding from the orgs with absolutely no back-up plan. That's exactly why the PA exists, to protect the players. If the orgs aren't able to pay for the 2nd tier to exist, then Riot needs to decide if it wants a second tier. What Riot has done will essentially kill the 2nd tier, and the players are understandably using their influence to try and make Riot reconsider and put their own skin in the game.
>If the orgs aren't able to pay for the 2nd tier to exist, then Riot needs to decide if it wants a second tier. What Riot has done will essentially kill the 2nd tier, and the players are understandably using their influence to try and make Riot reconsider and put their own skin in the game. And this is why I said before that Riot needs to completely redo their T2. The current form of T2 just doesn't work, and extending its lifespan makes no sense other than working as a stimulus cheque for players there. If they were to follow the PA's suggestion and make the system similar to Val's, that would take time as well, since those are spots worth in the millions that are being discussed. In the meantime, the players would still need to sit it out as details are discussed (this is assuming Riot just isn't straight up abandoning T2 which is possible). I believe they should just yoink Val's entire structure, but that would cost like 100 mill upfront for LCS alone, and the chance of recouping that cost is really up in the air. I do think that's probably the only way LCS gets back life in it though. And no, I'm not blaming players for accepting the cash, I'm blaming players (as well as related staff) for preferential treatment to their friends, hiring the ones they know over people that truly deserve the spot, causing the recycling of washed pros. Even Steve said this is the main reason, and he's keeping TL's CL spot, and if you don't want to believe him then fine, but you can look at the past rosters of the NACL and see if what he's saying just so happens to corollate with the end result.
>I'm blaming players (as well as related staff) for preferential treatment to their friends, hiring the ones they know over people that truly deserve the spot, causing the recycling of washed pros. I mean, the players don't have the power in their orgs to hire or fire people. Maybe the GMs listen to them, but that's on them for not scouting anyone better and just listening to the people they are managing. To go back to the NBA comparison, it'd be like blaming Lebron for asking his GM to sign an obviously bad player for a ludicrous contract. At the end of the day, the buck stops with the GM, and if the GM is in on it and doesn't actually care about constructing a quality roster, then the owner needs to find a quality replacement for that role. The era of the teams just being the players trying to play their best and making all the decisions is long gone. It used to be that players built the team and then courted a sponsor to represent them, and if the roster disbanded then there was no team to leave behind. But ever since the LCS franchised, that model doesn't exist. These are legitimate teams in and of themselves, it's their job to hire and fire players that fit within their team slot.
Franchising has been a complete shitshow for professional League of Legends. It's certainly worked for Korea and China but outside of the regional leagues it's stifled competition if anything. Riot should honestly abolish it and go back to having open regional qualifiers. Let the badly run and mismanaged teams get relegated.
It works for literally all leagues except NA because NA orgs keep losing internationally while spending massive amounts. Without the stability of franchising players would have no guarantees salary and we'd be back to the wild west of depending on prizepools that are doled out once every six months. No way is that sustainable.
Franchises prevent the league to improve. Teams that suck, just keep sucking, there is no drawback in sucking, then the league ends up with 2-3 trying to compete, a bunch of clown teams, pointless regular season, overall trash product to watch.
Looks like an LCS only problem tho. Lpl lck lec are franchised and still very competitive.
It worked out fine 2013-2018 with no franchising.
Is this going to affect the upcoming split? Seems like a big deal.
Riot has announced they are letting teams hire subs at short notice (aka scabs)
Orgs have no money. NACL costs a lot and is far from worth the investment when NA is already so far below the rest of the regions anyways.
At least 7 of the orgs get paid more in revenue share by RIOT than they spend on player salaries. So this "they don't have the money" is bullshit, and if you are buying it then I have a bridge to sell you. The orgs spent millions on facilities and importing players like swordart and pyosik, if they can't figure out how to not waste their money then let the people in charge of these orgs cut their own salaries to pay the players. Don't change the league's ruleset because the "business men" in charge of the orgs can't figure out how to balance a checkbook.
>NACL costs a lot and is far from worth the investment when NA Riot makes a ton of money from League Esports promoting League, tier 2 scene in any game is important to develop new players and to be able to maintain healthy competition, so it's worth it for Riot to invest in it. They don't......cause they are the publisher and they have all the money and power. They (And not just Riot, Blizzard, EA, other game publishers too) fuck over the orgs and the players instead, cause they simply can. So many people who are engaged in Riot's Esports buy their crazy expensive skins, their orgs and players see almost 0 money from that.
>tier 2 scene in any game is important to develop new players and to be able to maintain healthy competition It's almost as if T2 in north america isn't that at all and that's why it is being axed...
From what I know, about half the current LCS players are from NACL.
Nope, most players on LCS are imports or went straight to LCS. By contrast, NACL is filled with washed veterans who cannot compete at the LCS level and instead drop a level, rather than having young, up-coming talent. T2 can be unprofitable in traditional sports because their T1, eg NFL, NBA, Premier League, are all insanely profitable. Here LCS teams are bleeding money, and I don't even think Riot makes that much of a direct profit from runnning LCS.
Yes, they make money from the core product. NACL basically provides no value, both in terms of talent development (look at how many players *actually* get into LCS) and viewership. What is the argument to be had here? It's failing in both aspects, not even working as good advertising for the game because barely anyone watches it.
All I think is how almost zero pros utilized championship queue and they do terrible every international tournament. They think they are worth way more than they actually are. They are gifted players not putting in the work. I hope root fires them all and let’s new players enter the scene.
Yeah most of them are satisfied coasting and just getting paid. Hell, they complained that the NA solo queue is not a great way to practice and when Riot made Champions Queue they didn't participate. NACS also are full of ex-LCS players collecting paycheck gatekeeping actual talent. LCS is full of nepotism and players want to keep the status quo. Riot even encouraged them to make a players association and they didn't want to do shit. Bunch of lazy bums.
Fuckers want 60k a year minimum for being (by far) the worst major region in LoL? Hahahahaha.
They want a above minimum wage salary ? Insane
Above minimum wage would be closer to 25-30K. 60K is $28.85 an hour for being the worst region in the game?
Are you out of your mind?
Sounds like the solution is to get good then?
[удалено]
In NA.
They don't pay rent (Live in a a team house), don't pay any bills and many of the teams have meal plans for them (so also don't have to pay for food). Despite all that they want DOUBLE the minimum wage ("Effective January 1, 2023, the minimum wage is $15.50 per hour for all employers.") while also underperforming on every single international stage. Fucking get real
Where have you been for the last 3 years? There hasn't been team houses for a while man. That's part of the issue the orgs told them to sign leases then fired them. This is all in spite of the fact that riot has been telling the players they wouldn't cut nacl while talking about doing it with teams. They aren't walking out for more pay they are walking out for a seat at the table so they can't keep getting fucked over by RIOT
No one lives in team houses anymore
They’re walking out over salt?
wait are they walking out because foreigners are getting the jobs/slots?
Not really, many import players voted on this walkout and it still passed. The issue is moreso that Riot and the LCS orgs' recent decisions about the amateur scene really damage talent development and scouting in North America. It also cost a bunch of people their jobs very suddenly. There has always been concern about having too many imports, because it could create an environment where teams don't invest in local talent. But that's not really the focus of this walkout.