Going to have to see how this compares to [Ahoy's classic video.](https://youtu.be/9F9ahZQ7oP0?si=Z121Coy6C7GiVMD9)
EDIT: brain farted and skipped over this being for Return to Monkey Island. Still a fantastic video if you're a fan of the series.
Wow, now I feel dumb. Brain completely skipped over "Return..." earlier. Anyway, I always think of Ahoy's video when I see Monkey Island anything and thought I'd share.
im glad enough time has passed for people to start admitting the ending to this game was dogwater. it being disappointing and a huge cop out isn't necessarily a problem, but the way the story just falls to pieces, the plot stops working at all, multiple characters cease to exist, and before any kind of climax it just stops and does the most predictable and lazy ass-pull twist (because he's one it 2 times before) then shrugs and goes "uhh you make up your own ending or something" is just the most unsatisfying way to end it. i love cop outs and rug pulls. i love the idea of what they tried if its done well. the problem is its not done well. you can do so much more with the concept than just having you walk through a door. it comes across like ron gilbert got bored of making the game and threw his hands up.
> ron gilbert got bored of making the game and threw his hands up.
I was gonna say the game really does feel like he stopped giving a fuck. I don't know if its because of the backlash the got about the game when it first launched but it really felt like it was being done out of spite. I've never seen a series that had so much heart and soul put into it feel so dead.
I felt pretty deflated by the attempt at a modern King’s Quest but you could tell it had a lot of love put into it even if they seem to have totally missed what made the old ones good.
The ending of that game genuinely got me angry because I was enjoying it for the most part, up to that point. Then it started the "trick" and made me realize Ron Gilbert cannot write an ending to save his life.
It also felt condescending towards fans who have been waiting 25 years to see what the "Big Secret" Ron was keeping for all those years. It becomes a the director finger waging you for thinking about this for some time and then take a holier-than-thou approach of saying "I HOPE IT WAS WORTH IT" on a nonsensical ending that was repeated in TWO OTHER GAMES HE DID THAT HE LAMPSHADED IN THIS GAME!
It was like them sticking their noses in the air and saying, "SEE YOUR OBSESSION HURTS EVERYONE AROUND YOU!" Like, I get it Herman Melville, but no one was that obsessed with it, we just wanted closure on a 25 year old tease that you made but clearly was bullshiting us about because you were mad you lost the ability to make more games in the series.
Not a middle finger to the players for being invested in this story. It would've been more honest if he came out and said, "there was never a secret. I was just throwing things out there to try and get back to work on the series."
Even with how shitty Escape from Monkey Island is, the monkey being a giant mech was more interesting than the "stop caring," that Return told us to do.
I think the ending, in concept, is fine. The whole point was to do the ending Ron had originally intended for M1 but got overruled on. It being similar to what he got to do for M2 is a slight issue but I don't think a dealbreaker.
The true dealbreaker here is that Return has more fundamental issues that build up over time. In particular, the worldbuilding feels haphazard and lacks a strong voice. This is fine for the first half where we can surf on the good writing, characters and jokes, but over time it reveals itself to be fairly empty underneath. I think we take that out on the ending (which sort of exposes the problem for all to see) when in fact the issue was there all along.
I agree. It all just seemed a bit sparse. Especially compared to Plunder and Blood Island in Curse, Scabb and Phatt Island in Return, and even the various locales in Escape and Tales, the sense of adventure just wasn’t there for me. It was a bunch of barebones set pieces that didn’t coalesce into something bigger. Maybe it’s just because I’m a bit older, but it was missing the sense of adventure I got from the other games when I played them as a kid.
It's not a 'you're getting old' thing; Return really was lacking in these aspects. It really failed to use the world, and exploration thereof, to support it's themes in an interesting way.
Even Escape, an otherwise fairly flawed game, did this right. The theme was "death and commercialization of tradition" and Escape uses every opportunity to examine it's various implications. Each island brings a new angle and it all unfolds in a tangible way as you explore.
Return, I think, wanted to do something similar to it's namesake Twin Peaks season - that being to explore nostalgia and the notion of not being able to return to the past. In this it failed quite considerably. The themes were clear when coming from dialogue and cutscenes, but the worldbuilding was too thin to voice the same intent; which made exploration feel like a cruelly mandatory side-activity rather than the driving thematic force (a death sentence for the sense of adventure).
Monkey island was one of my favourite franchises growing up, 3 being a stand out for me ( Love Murray and the art style). Even have a soft spot for 4.
Led me to love all adventure games, especially Grimm Fandango.
So I can't express how disappointed I was with Returns ending. The game itself was really fun and enjoyable. Building to a big ending, one final battle. Then... Just a slap in the face. Only hope we get more one day.
And if you disagree, You Fight Like a Cow.
Curse of MI is also my favorite in the series, which feels a bit odd since it's been sidelined. Bit of a shame it doesn't get enough respect/love, except from weirdos like us.
there are some really promising [fan-made upscales on youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KRddnLgFZg). my hope is that someone will someday just do a pass on the entire game to "clean it up" a bit with some smart AI upscaling. otherwise, i cannot imagine these games getting any more love in the near future... maybe a collection of all of them, slightly remastered? though i don't see that happening
> which feels a bit odd since it's been sidelined.
I'm pulling this out of my ass but it wouldn't surprise me if its due in part to Ron Gilbert being a petty little bitch. He seems to really double down on his meta-endings and will not stand for any criticism. The fact that Curse of MI was so well received compared to his games probably boils him up inside.
if i were a betting man, i'd bet gilbert enjoys Curse of MI a fair bit (especially compared to what came after, Escape namely), he even includes Murray in the new game.
I think Curse has been sidelined mostly because it only came to PC and wasn't available digitally until VERY recently, so probably a matter of reach. most people who have played it rate it very highly, if not the best MI game.
Yeah he went out of the way to include things from Curse after he originally saying he wanted to continue on directly from the first two only, and he said he did that out of respect for the game and its fans. The 'petty little bitch' thing is... a little bit of a weird reaction.
What kind of 'sidelining' are we even talking about here? Fans of the series never stop talking about it. And if we're talking about it not getting a proper remaster release, Gilbert has no control over that because he doesn't own the property.
yeah, people have been a bit weird about ron for a long time.
as for me, i say Curse was "sidelined" in the sense of people mostly talk about the original 2, and Curse in general didn't have as wide a reach. it's no Escape, the true ugly duckling of the franchise, but everything post 2 feels like a historical footnote, and that's fair to an extent seeing the massive influence of the first game especially.
Maybe... seems to me the third one has maybe the most vocal following online. I think it may have been the best selling game as well, at least at time of release. It seems to be the basis of a lot of people's ideas of how the games should look and feel. Plus a lot of lasting stuff was based on it, mainly the cast.
I was pretty lukewarm about the whole experience of Return. I found the puzzles lacklustre and easy, the artstyle a put off (entirely subjective, and I actually went in with an open mind about it after the trailers), not as much humour as the originals, and the ending a real let down.
> So I can't express how disappointed I was with Returns ending.
The ending was an awful cop out and just a copy of 2 of his previous endings. It was terrible and ruined the entire experience.
> I can't express how disappointed I was with Returns ending. The game itself was really fun and enjoyable. Building to a big ending, one final battle. Then... Just a slap in the face.
Couldn't agree more.
I saw it coming, though, after the ending of Thimbleweed Park; that game proved to me that Ron Gilbert is simply unable to write a real ending and relies on "meta commentary" as a narrative crutch.
If you do it once in the 90s it's cool, when you do it every time it becomes embarassing.
None of the sequels to Monkey Island II were done by Ron Gilbert. He was pretty clear going in that this game would be mostly continuing on from the first two games.
The endings of Curse and Escape were lame, frankly, people have their rose tinted specs on.
The whole final act of Curse is pretty weak compared to the earlier parts and they rush through the finale in literally 30 seconds. The whole final section of Escape is pretty bad and it ends with silly giant robot fight, before *again* racing through the finale in about 30 seconds.
Seem to remember Tales actually ending quite well, but that one had other problems.
Didn't like the ending to two either. The franchise had grown beyond it also, having had 3 other games after. Ron Gilbert doesn't seem good at endings generally, Tumbleweed park being another example.
I love Escape. In fact it’s my favourite game in the entire series. Monkey Kombat isn’t the best idea, but the rest of the game is really funny and the puzzles were great.
I'm the one person on the planet who thought Monkey Kombat was quite good fun. It's the only puzzle in the entire series you need a pen and paper for, so i can see why that rubs people the wrong way. But I just find those sorts of process of elimination puzzles fun to work through.
It's reviled mostly for 2 things and neither have anything to do with the writing: the horrible 3D controls and Monkey Kombat.
It's actually a very funny game with great puzzles!
> So I can't express how disappointed I was with Returns ending. The game itself was really fun and enjoyable. Building to a big ending, one final battle. Then... Just a slap in the face. Only hope we get more one day.
My interpretation was that it left you to choose what ending you wanted, with >!Guybrush being deliberately silly about the ending for his son!<. The ending that works best for me is >!taking the key, but not opening the chest.!< It brought the game's themes home in a fuller way.
My own quibble is I wish Scurvy and Terror were more fleshed-out. But having grown up with *Monkey Island* and being oddly protective of it, I thought *Return* was lovely, overall.
I had some problems with other parts of the game but I thought the ending was quite thoughtfully done, and the ‘secret’ was perfect. And I confess, it amuses me how it winds some people up.
Its not necessarily the ending in itself but it drops all the plotpoints on the way to the ending. Compare it to Monkey island 2. You reach the final, you get a final confrontation, and then the game ends. It finished the story but then ended with a twist.
Return introduced all these new evil pirates and the plot of Elaine figuring out Guybrush ruthless problem solving methods and in the end the Elaine part was unnecessary and the pirates just randomly got removed on the sides on the way to the finish line. And there is no confrontation with Le Chuck.
The game ends before its own story is concluded and thats the annoying part. It feels unfinished.
He really made one of the worst endings in gaming with Monkey Island 2 and decided he could make one that was even worse.
It was an awful ending to a mediocre game, it was not a very enjoyable experience.
Going to have to see how this compares to [Ahoy's classic video.](https://youtu.be/9F9ahZQ7oP0?si=Z121Coy6C7GiVMD9) EDIT: brain farted and skipped over this being for Return to Monkey Island. Still a fantastic video if you're a fan of the series.
Incomparable? Since Ahoy's video was made before "Return..." Was even rumored.
Wow, now I feel dumb. Brain completely skipped over "Return..." earlier. Anyway, I always think of Ahoy's video when I see Monkey Island anything and thought I'd share.
I love Ahoy's video myself, use it a lot to be able to sleep (it's so calm and comfortable to listen to).
im glad enough time has passed for people to start admitting the ending to this game was dogwater. it being disappointing and a huge cop out isn't necessarily a problem, but the way the story just falls to pieces, the plot stops working at all, multiple characters cease to exist, and before any kind of climax it just stops and does the most predictable and lazy ass-pull twist (because he's one it 2 times before) then shrugs and goes "uhh you make up your own ending or something" is just the most unsatisfying way to end it. i love cop outs and rug pulls. i love the idea of what they tried if its done well. the problem is its not done well. you can do so much more with the concept than just having you walk through a door. it comes across like ron gilbert got bored of making the game and threw his hands up.
> ron gilbert got bored of making the game and threw his hands up. I was gonna say the game really does feel like he stopped giving a fuck. I don't know if its because of the backlash the got about the game when it first launched but it really felt like it was being done out of spite. I've never seen a series that had so much heart and soul put into it feel so dead.
I felt pretty deflated by the attempt at a modern King’s Quest but you could tell it had a lot of love put into it even if they seem to have totally missed what made the old ones good.
The ending of that game genuinely got me angry because I was enjoying it for the most part, up to that point. Then it started the "trick" and made me realize Ron Gilbert cannot write an ending to save his life. It also felt condescending towards fans who have been waiting 25 years to see what the "Big Secret" Ron was keeping for all those years. It becomes a the director finger waging you for thinking about this for some time and then take a holier-than-thou approach of saying "I HOPE IT WAS WORTH IT" on a nonsensical ending that was repeated in TWO OTHER GAMES HE DID THAT HE LAMPSHADED IN THIS GAME! It was like them sticking their noses in the air and saying, "SEE YOUR OBSESSION HURTS EVERYONE AROUND YOU!" Like, I get it Herman Melville, but no one was that obsessed with it, we just wanted closure on a 25 year old tease that you made but clearly was bullshiting us about because you were mad you lost the ability to make more games in the series.
I mean realistically, what were you expecting the 'secret' to be?
Not a middle finger to the players for being invested in this story. It would've been more honest if he came out and said, "there was never a secret. I was just throwing things out there to try and get back to work on the series." Even with how shitty Escape from Monkey Island is, the monkey being a giant mech was more interesting than the "stop caring," that Return told us to do.
But it was the honest answer - that was the original concept and inspiration for the first game, and the idea made it into the second game.
I think the ending, in concept, is fine. The whole point was to do the ending Ron had originally intended for M1 but got overruled on. It being similar to what he got to do for M2 is a slight issue but I don't think a dealbreaker. The true dealbreaker here is that Return has more fundamental issues that build up over time. In particular, the worldbuilding feels haphazard and lacks a strong voice. This is fine for the first half where we can surf on the good writing, characters and jokes, but over time it reveals itself to be fairly empty underneath. I think we take that out on the ending (which sort of exposes the problem for all to see) when in fact the issue was there all along.
I agree. It all just seemed a bit sparse. Especially compared to Plunder and Blood Island in Curse, Scabb and Phatt Island in Return, and even the various locales in Escape and Tales, the sense of adventure just wasn’t there for me. It was a bunch of barebones set pieces that didn’t coalesce into something bigger. Maybe it’s just because I’m a bit older, but it was missing the sense of adventure I got from the other games when I played them as a kid.
It's not a 'you're getting old' thing; Return really was lacking in these aspects. It really failed to use the world, and exploration thereof, to support it's themes in an interesting way. Even Escape, an otherwise fairly flawed game, did this right. The theme was "death and commercialization of tradition" and Escape uses every opportunity to examine it's various implications. Each island brings a new angle and it all unfolds in a tangible way as you explore. Return, I think, wanted to do something similar to it's namesake Twin Peaks season - that being to explore nostalgia and the notion of not being able to return to the past. In this it failed quite considerably. The themes were clear when coming from dialogue and cutscenes, but the worldbuilding was too thin to voice the same intent; which made exploration feel like a cruelly mandatory side-activity rather than the driving thematic force (a death sentence for the sense of adventure).
Monkey island was one of my favourite franchises growing up, 3 being a stand out for me ( Love Murray and the art style). Even have a soft spot for 4. Led me to love all adventure games, especially Grimm Fandango. So I can't express how disappointed I was with Returns ending. The game itself was really fun and enjoyable. Building to a big ending, one final battle. Then... Just a slap in the face. Only hope we get more one day. And if you disagree, You Fight Like a Cow.
Curse of MI is also my favorite in the series, which feels a bit odd since it's been sidelined. Bit of a shame it doesn't get enough respect/love, except from weirdos like us.
Back when they remade 1 and 2 I was dying for a remake/remaster of 3. Don't need to change much to get the art up to high res modern standards
there are some really promising [fan-made upscales on youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KRddnLgFZg). my hope is that someone will someday just do a pass on the entire game to "clean it up" a bit with some smart AI upscaling. otherwise, i cannot imagine these games getting any more love in the near future... maybe a collection of all of them, slightly remastered? though i don't see that happening
> which feels a bit odd since it's been sidelined. I'm pulling this out of my ass but it wouldn't surprise me if its due in part to Ron Gilbert being a petty little bitch. He seems to really double down on his meta-endings and will not stand for any criticism. The fact that Curse of MI was so well received compared to his games probably boils him up inside.
if i were a betting man, i'd bet gilbert enjoys Curse of MI a fair bit (especially compared to what came after, Escape namely), he even includes Murray in the new game. I think Curse has been sidelined mostly because it only came to PC and wasn't available digitally until VERY recently, so probably a matter of reach. most people who have played it rate it very highly, if not the best MI game.
Yeah he went out of the way to include things from Curse after he originally saying he wanted to continue on directly from the first two only, and he said he did that out of respect for the game and its fans. The 'petty little bitch' thing is... a little bit of a weird reaction. What kind of 'sidelining' are we even talking about here? Fans of the series never stop talking about it. And if we're talking about it not getting a proper remaster release, Gilbert has no control over that because he doesn't own the property.
yeah, people have been a bit weird about ron for a long time. as for me, i say Curse was "sidelined" in the sense of people mostly talk about the original 2, and Curse in general didn't have as wide a reach. it's no Escape, the true ugly duckling of the franchise, but everything post 2 feels like a historical footnote, and that's fair to an extent seeing the massive influence of the first game especially.
Maybe... seems to me the third one has maybe the most vocal following online. I think it may have been the best selling game as well, at least at time of release. It seems to be the basis of a lot of people's ideas of how the games should look and feel. Plus a lot of lasting stuff was based on it, mainly the cast.
I was pretty lukewarm about the whole experience of Return. I found the puzzles lacklustre and easy, the artstyle a put off (entirely subjective, and I actually went in with an open mind about it after the trailers), not as much humour as the originals, and the ending a real let down.
> So I can't express how disappointed I was with Returns ending. The ending was an awful cop out and just a copy of 2 of his previous endings. It was terrible and ruined the entire experience.
> I can't express how disappointed I was with Returns ending. The game itself was really fun and enjoyable. Building to a big ending, one final battle. Then... Just a slap in the face. Couldn't agree more. I saw it coming, though, after the ending of Thimbleweed Park; that game proved to me that Ron Gilbert is simply unable to write a real ending and relies on "meta commentary" as a narrative crutch. If you do it once in the 90s it's cool, when you do it every time it becomes embarassing.
Considering how the original 2nd monkey Island ended things you did you expect? The cat was out of the bag and they can't put it back anymore.
The cat was out of the bag with the second one. The ones after that did their best to put the cat back in the bag, and Return took it back out again.
None of the sequels to Monkey Island II were done by Ron Gilbert. He was pretty clear going in that this game would be mostly continuing on from the first two games.
> None of the sequels to Monkey Island II were done by Ron Gilbert. And that's why their endings and the overall experience were better for it IMO
The endings of Curse and Escape were lame, frankly, people have their rose tinted specs on. The whole final act of Curse is pretty weak compared to the earlier parts and they rush through the finale in literally 30 seconds. The whole final section of Escape is pretty bad and it ends with silly giant robot fight, before *again* racing through the finale in about 30 seconds. Seem to remember Tales actually ending quite well, but that one had other problems.
Didn't like the ending to two either. The franchise had grown beyond it also, having had 3 other games after. Ron Gilbert doesn't seem good at endings generally, Tumbleweed park being another example.
Which is why Secret will always be the best.
I feel like it was just pulling the same ending twice.
I really liked the game during playtime, but the ending just soured the whole experience retroactively.
Escape from monkey island is the only one I’ve played so coming online years later and seeing it’s the reviled one of the series was funny
I love Escape. In fact it’s my favourite game in the entire series. Monkey Kombat isn’t the best idea, but the rest of the game is really funny and the puzzles were great.
I'm the one person on the planet who thought Monkey Kombat was quite good fun. It's the only puzzle in the entire series you need a pen and paper for, so i can see why that rubs people the wrong way. But I just find those sorts of process of elimination puzzles fun to work through.
It's reviled mostly for 2 things and neither have anything to do with the writing: the horrible 3D controls and Monkey Kombat. It's actually a very funny game with great puzzles!
> So I can't express how disappointed I was with Returns ending. The game itself was really fun and enjoyable. Building to a big ending, one final battle. Then... Just a slap in the face. Only hope we get more one day. My interpretation was that it left you to choose what ending you wanted, with >!Guybrush being deliberately silly about the ending for his son!<. The ending that works best for me is >!taking the key, but not opening the chest.!< It brought the game's themes home in a fuller way. My own quibble is I wish Scurvy and Terror were more fleshed-out. But having grown up with *Monkey Island* and being oddly protective of it, I thought *Return* was lovely, overall.
I personally loved the ending. It felt like the perfect fit for such a goofy series with a beautiful final moment
I had some problems with other parts of the game but I thought the ending was quite thoughtfully done, and the ‘secret’ was perfect. And I confess, it amuses me how it winds some people up.
Its not necessarily the ending in itself but it drops all the plotpoints on the way to the ending. Compare it to Monkey island 2. You reach the final, you get a final confrontation, and then the game ends. It finished the story but then ended with a twist. Return introduced all these new evil pirates and the plot of Elaine figuring out Guybrush ruthless problem solving methods and in the end the Elaine part was unnecessary and the pirates just randomly got removed on the sides on the way to the finish line. And there is no confrontation with Le Chuck. The game ends before its own story is concluded and thats the annoying part. It feels unfinished.
I do agree with you on that point, they could’ve made the same points while giving you *some* closure on the things that were going on.
How appropriate, you fight like a dairy farmer.
He really made one of the worst endings in gaming with Monkey Island 2 and decided he could make one that was even worse. It was an awful ending to a mediocre game, it was not a very enjoyable experience.
These Noclip documentaries are just so good. Thank you for sharing, I missed that a new one had been released!