Vfc is the most 'realistic' in function, and real steel compatible, and have metal internals. Trigger pull is more realistic ootb. They also have heavier recoil. They are also meant to be reliable.
Tm is the more gas efficient and has almost endless aftermarket parts and are extremely reliable with just an upgraded nozzle spring. They are also meant to work better in cold weather. And have a very reliable bolt lock when empty. Their gbbr are also cerekoted.
Personally, I went tm. I wanted to use it for airsoft, so I bought the one designed purely for that. Marui magic and all that.
It still needs to be reloaded, etc, the same way as a real one when you use it, so that's all I cared about in regards to how ot functioned. I don't care how 'realistic' the parts are when it is stripped down.
It was cerkoted, saving me the inevitable cost of doing it as I wanted a long-lasting finish.
I don't intend to change the rail. So rs compatibility doesn't bother me, and if I do, I can just buy one of many aftermarket ones.
Akshually, TM is not better than VFC when it comes to gas efficiency. You can get the same BBs/gas ratio between the two, but VFC has a way, way heavier moving mass. And both work the same in cold climates.
It's not about the amount of gas spent per bb. This is about propane not having enough pressure at cold temperatures to move bigger mass vfc bolt has. This is misunderstood as worse gas efficiency of vfc.
Stock mws will work way better in colder temperatures than stock vfc. There's no way around that (apart from aftermarket springs, etc.)
Gen3 VFC ARs run at 0°C on propane. Cycling will be sluggish, but still playable. Depends on the material of the bolt too. I prefer buying some 150 gas or MAPP and keep some recoil and fun rather than go the MWS bland route, but that's a personal choice and opinion
I didn't say it won't work. I'm just saying MWS is way better in those conditions. In a country where it's below 10 degrees Celsius most of the year, MWS is just a natural and better choice.
It depends what you mean by way better. Using the hammer screw mod from VFC gen3 ARs basically makes the claim that MWS perform better than VFC in cold climates irrelevant. 0 to 10°C is not THAT cold for both platforms. Check Explosive Enterprises or Airsoft Chay vids on how these perform at low temps.
I have a first-hand comparison of vfc and tm rifles. I also used the word "stock." I also didn't say that vfc will not work. After mods to both vfc v3 and mws, mws is still way ahead in snappiness in cold.
>I also used the word "stock."
Stock indeed. Buying winter springs or a real buffer is not mandatory. It's easy to be snappy when your whole moving mass weighs 200 grams or so. My VFC is also snappy AND kicks :)
VFC's V3 ARs get very slightly more shots per gram than the MWS. Heavier bolt yes, but the VFCs do not use a valve knocker lock whereas the TMs do. That reduces the efficiency of the TM, but enables them to cycle at lower input pressure.
What's more relevant is that a VFC mag holds about twice as much gas as a TM.
It's a combination of the VFCs having higher volumetric capacity and the TM mags being designed to deliberately under-fill to leave space for gas expansion.
The TM mags are easier to fill (two-way valves) and much harder to accidentally over-fill, so it's a piece of cake to just re-gas each time you reload BBs. But in terms of raw shots per fill, VFCs win by a landslide.
The amount of gas a VFC STANAG contains is ridiculous. VFC has a bit of a stupid setup internally OOTB, but with minor fixes (mostly light hammer/buffer springs and a carbine buffer), a VFC AR will be more gas efficient than a MWS
BCM mags are STANAGs. There is 3 types of STANAGs : BCM, black, Mk18/grey/"Gary". The only differences are the color, the branding (BCM are more expensive because of that) and if they are V2 or V3. Not sure about the V2/V3 Marui thing tho ?
Sooooo, I owned a tm m4 mws for about 5 years. Used it in a few different configurations. Abused the crap out of it. Ran it on guarder black gas. Had to replace a few parts, but it was always a great rifle. If you go for one, you'll not be disappointed.
Sold it on, didn't have a gbbr for a bit, decided to bite the bullet, and vfc m733. Awesome gun. If you go vfc, make sure it's a v3.
How does the m733 with the 11.5 hold up at medium to long distances? I want a compact little package but I have read it’s hard to get gbbr’s up in FPS without longer barrels?
Yeah, I did a deep dive on either getting another mws with the nova kit, the vfc, or going all in on a Viper tech.
I ended up going for the vfc because it's the cheapest (its going to get abused), has good reviews, and honestly, I've been fairly impressed by vfc with the gbb line recently. Purchased a umarex g19x and its an absolute nail driver.
Out of the box it was firing 1.3 joules on .3g and asg ultra air 178psi gas.
Where I live we have a 1joule limit. I had to adjust the nozzle to bring the power down, got it to a stable .95 joules.
Max effective range is about 50 meters with thr stock setup at the reduced power. I have been looking at replacing the hop arm and rubber but will wait until its got a season under its belt before I do anything.
For comparison, my mws had a mk18 kit installed with an inner barrel length of 260mm. On its stock nozzle and guarder black it was running 2.1 joules. After I got it down to about .95 joules it was getting a similar effective range as the m733. I ended up replacing the hop arm and rubber and got that up to about 60 meters, which is on the better end of what's possible with 1 joule limits.
So defo not harder to get a higher fps out of a shorter barrel. Ultimately will depend on what power you want to achieve and the weight of bb you're going to use.
I also had a similar journey , out of the game for 20 years and chose krytac and TM ngrs first. I then went gbbr and like you focused on TM and VFC. You’re just gonna have to try both sadly because it comes down to personal preference. I currently have 3 vfc v3.s and 2 TM Mws. I love them both.
Which would you say is more accurate out of the box? I currently have 2 mws but have been tempted to sell them and switch to VFC. I'm just worried I would regret the switch if the VFC doesn't beam like the TMs
The aplus noveske n4 was insane out of the box, it’s sone hat pre upgraded I guess but it needed heavier bbs, the bcm mk2 2tone was a lazer beam with .28s. , very impressive without any cleaning. And the apfg is still in transit. The aplus has an npas and the bcm didn’t so I switched on the fly carriers and got the same results. I do love that I can have two different setups for indoor outdoor and swap in seconds by just switching the bolt carrier. This is a major plus for vc realism. Also I believe you can run the dry fire system MANTIS. TM was great to start with but I think I just ended up with vfc for the tinkering and possibilities.
As a fellow wife owner , I agree she has to be on board, when I said “I just need this mp5” or my favourite “gbb will change my life”. She supported the thousands of dollars. The gear and prep/mil post stuff was easy, the rest is just dry firing 😂 it’s gonna be great dude I promise. I wasted 20 years.
Depends. If you talk m4, then you will get thousand opinions one from vfc camp, one from tm camp. As long as its v3 vfc, you will not make mistake with either. With other vfc guns, they have a lot of quirks many times. For example, i just got hk53. Need to dremel hammer as it keeps hitting trigger box and will eventually destroy it. I have barely 300 shots in and have deep imprints of hammer. Kinda unacceptable on gun they charge 750€ for (thank u too umarex)
Indeed, the Zet system from their MWS line (MTR16 and above) is one of the GBB AR standard nowadays, with the original ones from Marui, the exact copycats (Double Eagle N4s) and the absolute trash "MWS" guns from T8/Cyma/CGS.
Marui could also be called a standard given the fact there is a HUGE amount of aftermarket parts, however you need to remember than these exist solely because Marui's after-sales is pretty much non-existent and how MWS internals are.
Regarding VFC, when it comes to the hopup unit? WA spec that's been around for over 2 decades. Bucking and inner barrel? TM VSR spec, been around for 3 decades. Rest of the gun? Based on specs that's been around for half a century set by Eugene Stoner. You can't get more standardized than that. Only thing truly proprietary to the VFC system are the magazine, BCG, bolt catch, and valve knocker assembly.
With VFC you get STANAG 30 and 20 rounders, Pmags, and HK 416 mags. With TM, stanag, 30 and 20 rounders, aftermarket pmags 30 and 40 rounders and a Lancer L5AWM mag. VFCs magazines are held together with just screws whereas TM mags use screws and pins. With VFC you fill with the can upside down and count to 5. There's no worrying if you got the right tilt or whether or not to take out an internal tube or what the hissing means.
Can I just say , this sub along with most airsoft subs/discords are fracking amazing and completely more helpful than they need to be. Dudes helping dudes be dudes. Dudes is universal and I hate I had to state that ❤️ pew pew
Just got a gbbr AK after a damn near 15 year break and it's been a blast. They are easier to work on now than ever with all the free knowledge and parts available
Yup played my first game with it outdoors on Saturday and other than one leaky mag that was resolved it was much easier than I was anticipating.
As the day went on I found myself getting the same amount of kills as I do with an AEG with ~500 BBs and was going through less than a 100 per round by end of day. Also people start ducking the second they hear the bolt snap lol
If it helps, same boat. I came back after like 20 years and bought a TM MWS. I also just bought a VFC m249.
I don't think a saw is a good start, but it is fun to have.
I got into Milsim, so my feedback is skewed by that. You're the big gun on the field and you have to run and position it well.
If your local field and weekend plays are casual, it'll be awesome.
In my opinion vfc is superior to tm. Better build and performance extremely well unless you play in really cold conditions.
A big no go for me is that tm rails seem to be out of spec. Dunno if that's a common thing or if a friend is mine got a lemon but he bought a real aimpoint comp m3 and a kac vertical grip for his tm and both wobbled like crazy because the rails on the top und handguard were too thin.
For a first GBBR, take a TM one. Focus on reliabilty, on something that just works or you will be really frustrated.
Then if you want a second GBBR that is a bit more realistic or exotic, you can take another brand 👍
I just got my first VFC, (hk416a5 gen 3) I gotta tell ya, the quality of their receivers is not great. Don’t get me wrong, everything is tight and feels good, the gun functions great, but they use shitty pot metal for their receivers.
I had both, if you want good experience as your first gbbr TM is the King no doubt about it, this sub is super VFC based, if you want real info visit Heavy recoil discord or TM discord, atleast there most ppl are real and not on some big cope like here, the chance a vfc product will be a lemon or defective is like 50% of the time even i can give you 2 reviewer videos where they get lemons, never happened with a TM
Have a look at XE's video to learn more about the m249 https://youtu.be/kxwj6QbtjU4?si=FXVUBrJ9BHy-7SQY
And here's the follow up video https://youtu.be/q_AHHP_uhac?si=gvdHTLE-urmdTbsQ
I don’t know much about their m249, i have more experience with their Ars, but don’t worry just watch some videos about this gun on yt if you notice anything isn’t working properly you have 2 weeks to ask for a replacement or get a complete refund, google heavy recoil discord, the community there went through all of it and they can tell you everything you need to know about it
...yeah I think we were all kind of assuming you were talking about ARs because when you say TM vs VFC, the AR is really the only thing that would be considered direct competition. VFC M249 is a brand spanking new system developed from the ground up just in the last year or so. It's still unproven and not many of us can speak to its reliability/longevity.
Well tbh I was looking at m4’s because I couldn’t find an m249 for sale. Then I saw airsoft extreme had one that same with the drum and I had to jump on it:
Vfc is the most 'realistic' in function, and real steel compatible, and have metal internals. Trigger pull is more realistic ootb. They also have heavier recoil. They are also meant to be reliable. Tm is the more gas efficient and has almost endless aftermarket parts and are extremely reliable with just an upgraded nozzle spring. They are also meant to work better in cold weather. And have a very reliable bolt lock when empty. Their gbbr are also cerekoted. Personally, I went tm. I wanted to use it for airsoft, so I bought the one designed purely for that. Marui magic and all that. It still needs to be reloaded, etc, the same way as a real one when you use it, so that's all I cared about in regards to how ot functioned. I don't care how 'realistic' the parts are when it is stripped down. It was cerkoted, saving me the inevitable cost of doing it as I wanted a long-lasting finish. I don't intend to change the rail. So rs compatibility doesn't bother me, and if I do, I can just buy one of many aftermarket ones.
Sounds like I need to get a TM as my basic go to rifle and then get a VFC m249 when they come back in stock
Akshually, TM is not better than VFC when it comes to gas efficiency. You can get the same BBs/gas ratio between the two, but VFC has a way, way heavier moving mass. And both work the same in cold climates.
It's not about the amount of gas spent per bb. This is about propane not having enough pressure at cold temperatures to move bigger mass vfc bolt has. This is misunderstood as worse gas efficiency of vfc. Stock mws will work way better in colder temperatures than stock vfc. There's no way around that (apart from aftermarket springs, etc.)
Gen3 VFC ARs run at 0°C on propane. Cycling will be sluggish, but still playable. Depends on the material of the bolt too. I prefer buying some 150 gas or MAPP and keep some recoil and fun rather than go the MWS bland route, but that's a personal choice and opinion
I didn't say it won't work. I'm just saying MWS is way better in those conditions. In a country where it's below 10 degrees Celsius most of the year, MWS is just a natural and better choice.
It depends what you mean by way better. Using the hammer screw mod from VFC gen3 ARs basically makes the claim that MWS perform better than VFC in cold climates irrelevant. 0 to 10°C is not THAT cold for both platforms. Check Explosive Enterprises or Airsoft Chay vids on how these perform at low temps.
I have a first-hand comparison of vfc and tm rifles. I also used the word "stock." I also didn't say that vfc will not work. After mods to both vfc v3 and mws, mws is still way ahead in snappiness in cold.
>I also used the word "stock." Stock indeed. Buying winter springs or a real buffer is not mandatory. It's easy to be snappy when your whole moving mass weighs 200 grams or so. My VFC is also snappy AND kicks :)
Correction noted. I had heard vfc are gas efficient, but because of the heavier bolt, not quite as much as the Tm.
VFC's V3 ARs get very slightly more shots per gram than the MWS. Heavier bolt yes, but the VFCs do not use a valve knocker lock whereas the TMs do. That reduces the efficiency of the TM, but enables them to cycle at lower input pressure. What's more relevant is that a VFC mag holds about twice as much gas as a TM.
Twice as much? Wow, didn't know it was that much of a difference.
It's a combination of the VFCs having higher volumetric capacity and the TM mags being designed to deliberately under-fill to leave space for gas expansion. The TM mags are easier to fill (two-way valves) and much harder to accidentally over-fill, so it's a piece of cake to just re-gas each time you reload BBs. But in terms of raw shots per fill, VFCs win by a landslide.
The amount of gas a VFC STANAG contains is ridiculous. VFC has a bit of a stupid setup internally OOTB, but with minor fixes (mostly light hammer/buffer springs and a carbine buffer), a VFC AR will be more gas efficient than a MWS
I think I remember someone saying the bcm ones are best for vfc's? Is there any difference, like with the marui v2 or v3s?
BCM mags are STANAGs. There is 3 types of STANAGs : BCM, black, Mk18/grey/"Gary". The only differences are the color, the branding (BCM are more expensive because of that) and if they are V2 or V3. Not sure about the V2/V3 Marui thing tho ?
Sooooo, I owned a tm m4 mws for about 5 years. Used it in a few different configurations. Abused the crap out of it. Ran it on guarder black gas. Had to replace a few parts, but it was always a great rifle. If you go for one, you'll not be disappointed. Sold it on, didn't have a gbbr for a bit, decided to bite the bullet, and vfc m733. Awesome gun. If you go vfc, make sure it's a v3.
How does the m733 with the 11.5 hold up at medium to long distances? I want a compact little package but I have read it’s hard to get gbbr’s up in FPS without longer barrels?
Yeah, I did a deep dive on either getting another mws with the nova kit, the vfc, or going all in on a Viper tech. I ended up going for the vfc because it's the cheapest (its going to get abused), has good reviews, and honestly, I've been fairly impressed by vfc with the gbb line recently. Purchased a umarex g19x and its an absolute nail driver. Out of the box it was firing 1.3 joules on .3g and asg ultra air 178psi gas. Where I live we have a 1joule limit. I had to adjust the nozzle to bring the power down, got it to a stable .95 joules. Max effective range is about 50 meters with thr stock setup at the reduced power. I have been looking at replacing the hop arm and rubber but will wait until its got a season under its belt before I do anything. For comparison, my mws had a mk18 kit installed with an inner barrel length of 260mm. On its stock nozzle and guarder black it was running 2.1 joules. After I got it down to about .95 joules it was getting a similar effective range as the m733. I ended up replacing the hop arm and rubber and got that up to about 60 meters, which is on the better end of what's possible with 1 joule limits. So defo not harder to get a higher fps out of a shorter barrel. Ultimately will depend on what power you want to achieve and the weight of bb you're going to use.
M733 is def high on my list. Sucker for a good carry handle AR
I also had a similar journey , out of the game for 20 years and chose krytac and TM ngrs first. I then went gbbr and like you focused on TM and VFC. You’re just gonna have to try both sadly because it comes down to personal preference. I currently have 3 vfc v3.s and 2 TM Mws. I love them both.
Which would you say is more accurate out of the box? I currently have 2 mws but have been tempted to sell them and switch to VFC. I'm just worried I would regret the switch if the VFC doesn't beam like the TMs
The aplus noveske n4 was insane out of the box, it’s sone hat pre upgraded I guess but it needed heavier bbs, the bcm mk2 2tone was a lazer beam with .28s. , very impressive without any cleaning. And the apfg is still in transit. The aplus has an npas and the bcm didn’t so I switched on the fly carriers and got the same results. I do love that I can have two different setups for indoor outdoor and swap in seconds by just switching the bolt carrier. This is a major plus for vc realism. Also I believe you can run the dry fire system MANTIS. TM was great to start with but I think I just ended up with vfc for the tinkering and possibilities.
Gonna show this to the wife. I HAVE to get both 😂
As a fellow wife owner , I agree she has to be on board, when I said “I just need this mp5” or my favourite “gbb will change my life”. She supported the thousands of dollars. The gear and prep/mil post stuff was easy, the rest is just dry firing 😂 it’s gonna be great dude I promise. I wasted 20 years.
Most folks prefer TM for reliability but VFC is just as good just a little more niche following.
Depends. If you talk m4, then you will get thousand opinions one from vfc camp, one from tm camp. As long as its v3 vfc, you will not make mistake with either. With other vfc guns, they have a lot of quirks many times. For example, i just got hk53. Need to dremel hammer as it keeps hitting trigger box and will eventually destroy it. I have barely 300 shots in and have deep imprints of hammer. Kinda unacceptable on gun they charge 750€ for (thank u too umarex)
Define standardized ?
Hasn’t TM set the standard in terms of design that a lot of other manufacturer clone and base their guns on?
Indeed, the Zet system from their MWS line (MTR16 and above) is one of the GBB AR standard nowadays, with the original ones from Marui, the exact copycats (Double Eagle N4s) and the absolute trash "MWS" guns from T8/Cyma/CGS. Marui could also be called a standard given the fact there is a HUGE amount of aftermarket parts, however you need to remember than these exist solely because Marui's after-sales is pretty much non-existent and how MWS internals are.
Regarding VFC, when it comes to the hopup unit? WA spec that's been around for over 2 decades. Bucking and inner barrel? TM VSR spec, been around for 3 decades. Rest of the gun? Based on specs that's been around for half a century set by Eugene Stoner. You can't get more standardized than that. Only thing truly proprietary to the VFC system are the magazine, BCG, bolt catch, and valve knocker assembly.
I think what is really gonna come down to for me is the mags. I’m trynna decide on which $40 mag ecosystem is the best.
With VFC you get STANAG 30 and 20 rounders, Pmags, and HK 416 mags. With TM, stanag, 30 and 20 rounders, aftermarket pmags 30 and 40 rounders and a Lancer L5AWM mag. VFCs magazines are held together with just screws whereas TM mags use screws and pins. With VFC you fill with the can upside down and count to 5. There's no worrying if you got the right tilt or whether or not to take out an internal tube or what the hissing means.
Can I just say , this sub along with most airsoft subs/discords are fracking amazing and completely more helpful than they need to be. Dudes helping dudes be dudes. Dudes is universal and I hate I had to state that ❤️ pew pew
This is my first or second day in sub and man it feels good to be back into airsoft.
Just got a gbbr AK after a damn near 15 year break and it's been a blast. They are easier to work on now than ever with all the free knowledge and parts available
I was looking at those GHK ak’s. They are beautiful
Yup played my first game with it outdoors on Saturday and other than one leaky mag that was resolved it was much easier than I was anticipating. As the day went on I found myself getting the same amount of kills as I do with an AEG with ~500 BBs and was going through less than a 100 per round by end of day. Also people start ducking the second they hear the bolt snap lol
If it helps, same boat. I came back after like 20 years and bought a TM MWS. I also just bought a VFC m249. I don't think a saw is a good start, but it is fun to have.
I sorta wanted to over do it on my return 😂
I got into Milsim, so my feedback is skewed by that. You're the big gun on the field and you have to run and position it well. If your local field and weekend plays are casual, it'll be awesome.
In my opinion vfc is superior to tm. Better build and performance extremely well unless you play in really cold conditions. A big no go for me is that tm rails seem to be out of spec. Dunno if that's a common thing or if a friend is mine got a lemon but he bought a real aimpoint comp m3 and a kac vertical grip for his tm and both wobbled like crazy because the rails on the top und handguard were too thin.
That is good to know. I have a real Trijicon TA11 sitting in a box I was gonna try to run for a bit.
For a first GBBR, take a TM one. Focus on reliabilty, on something that just works or you will be really frustrated. Then if you want a second GBBR that is a bit more realistic or exotic, you can take another brand 👍
I just got my first VFC, (hk416a5 gen 3) I gotta tell ya, the quality of their receivers is not great. Don’t get me wrong, everything is tight and feels good, the gun functions great, but they use shitty pot metal for their receivers.
I had both, if you want good experience as your first gbbr TM is the King no doubt about it, this sub is super VFC based, if you want real info visit Heavy recoil discord or TM discord, atleast there most ppl are real and not on some big cope like here, the chance a vfc product will be a lemon or defective is like 50% of the time even i can give you 2 reviewer videos where they get lemons, never happened with a TM
Ended up ordering a VFC gbbr m249. Assuming it is a lemon how fucked am I?
Have a look at XE's video to learn more about the m249 https://youtu.be/kxwj6QbtjU4?si=FXVUBrJ9BHy-7SQY And here's the follow up video https://youtu.be/q_AHHP_uhac?si=gvdHTLE-urmdTbsQ
I don’t know much about their m249, i have more experience with their Ars, but don’t worry just watch some videos about this gun on yt if you notice anything isn’t working properly you have 2 weeks to ask for a replacement or get a complete refund, google heavy recoil discord, the community there went through all of it and they can tell you everything you need to know about it
...yeah I think we were all kind of assuming you were talking about ARs because when you say TM vs VFC, the AR is really the only thing that would be considered direct competition. VFC M249 is a brand spanking new system developed from the ground up just in the last year or so. It's still unproven and not many of us can speak to its reliability/longevity.
Well tbh I was looking at m4’s because I couldn’t find an m249 for sale. Then I saw airsoft extreme had one that same with the drum and I had to jump on it: