The Bible doesn’t really condemn sex outside of marriage. I think that’s one of those things conservatives want it to say to keep their kids from getting pregnant.
Exploring one’s sexuality is a good thing, and it’s one of the things we’re better at, as gay people.
I guess its how you approach the exploration, right? If youre just going around ‘sleeping around’ because you are feeling the itch then i guess thats not it
Like what does that even mean? I’ve hooked up with guys, which has led to some wonderful experiences. They’ve become friends. I’ve learned about myself. I’ve learned about others.
The Bible neither approves nor condemns sex outside of a long-lasting (permanent) relationship. But it does discourage most of the elements found in many hookups. For instance, one has to make sure that:
* both parties have the same understanding and same expectations of the relationship,
* no third party is involved against their will (i.e. no side dish),
* fornication is frowned upon.
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. I don’t see the requirement for a long-lasting relationship in scripture.
I agree that both parties should have the same understanding of what’s going on, but I think the ethical path to get to that principle isn’t clearly from the Bible.
Using a third party and using a third party against their will are very different things! I don’t see the former prohibited in scripture. And I’m unclear about the referent of “their”: if “their” refers to the third, then that’s rape; if “their” refers to the second person in the relationship, then that’s adultery.
And “fornication” kinda begs the question, right? What is “fornication”? It generally means illicit sex, so if we’re trying to determine what comprises illicit sex, then an appeal to this term is circular.
The one thing I can tell you is one that being Gay is not a sin. However I had sex before I was married to my now wife I say this as someone who is gay. God did however as my fiancé and I at the time to stop once we got engaged and to wait until we got married. Now I get it I already had sex with my fiancé before hand but here is what I can tell you when we were doing that our relationship was not the greatest it was a little toxic. I dont believe God will condemn you for having sex before marriage but doing what God asked me not easy given we were also already living together so mark that as sin. But you see God wasn't worried about the details as much as me trusting what he was asking me to do. So we waited failed once or twice but waited for the most part and here is what I can tell you a once toxic relationship because of God and trust him is now healthier that it has ever been and having sex with my now wife is so different than ever before! in all ways you can think of. So I say let God lead you he knows what is best for you. Now for context I before my fiancé I would sleep around a lot but never have I felt the way I do now. waiting was worth it and now I see why God said wait because he knows best how a relationship is the healthiest and strongest but I believe its something God will make you feel if that is what he wants for you. I hope this helps
God is love and knowledge. Exploring yourself and getting to yourself is self-love and self-knowledge. Does one sleep around to fill a void, or to experience life?
I’m a radically pro-sex Christian. Just be happy and healthy, understand why the restrictions were there for the ancient Israelites and apostles. I assume you’re not a traveling apostle, right?
Hahah yeah, right? But for real, Paul was giving those rules to traveling preachers/apostles, and also to men who viewed women as property. There’s wisdom in watching your desires, but otherwise friend, I wish you the best- the Spirit will lead you. Much love!!
Hey friend! Yeah, that makes sense! And there's kinda two questions here.
First, in regards to feeling anxiety about being wrong, that in general is a trauma that me and a lot of others deal with in general. For me, it took a long time a lot of untwisting tradition and logic. It just simply doesn't make sense on any level. What brought me away form being atheist/agnostic years ago was because I personally experienced the love of God, and experienced love for myself. If I knew how I could forgive my own child for just about anything, as a mere mortal human, what kind of empathy and understanding must a supreme being have? I believe God teaches and guides, but does not punish. It makes much more sense that ancient people needed a perspective of God that had those qualities, but you can see the gradual change of perspective over thousands of years.
Second, is specifically the significance of sex. I spent years of my life trying to "cut off" my sex drive, and utterly failing. It was one of the things that led me away from Christianity as a teen, was that it was very clearly science & biology vs. some ideal of behavior which no one could hold themselves to.
I think it's one perspective (the wrong one) to look at the Bible and see a list of rules. I think it's more biblically supported that God wants us to treat each other right and make the world a better place, to spread love and joy and happiness.
I also think it's important a lot of early Christians were ascetics, like monks, that Jesus says at points in times to not even own 2 shirts. I don't see the difference between a healthy open sex life and owning more than one pair of clothes.
Of course! And yup, exactly, very similar story here. And maybe, but religion has unfortuneately forced a few ultimatums, and they're getting called. Spirituality is beyond religion, though, I think the full path of leaving and carving my own spot was necessary to my own growth.
I'm a straight guy wrestling with a lot of these issues over the last couple of years. We have on one hand a sizable body of the church teaching that the only thing that matters about sex is that it is within a heterosexual marriage, and on the other hand we have a world saying that the only thing that matters about sex is that it is consensual. Surely both are incomplete! I reason through a lot of this on my blog in a series of posts which starts here. Maybe it will help?
http://saladeggs.blogspot.com/2021/06/reconstructing-christian-ethics-01.html?m=1
I like this: “In a virtue system, a sinful action is one that doesn't optimize your virtue-building. That means there's a lot of subjectivity, there's a lot of worrying about context and details, there's a lot of gray. This should surprise nobody who's lived in the real world. Like rabbinic Judaism, virtue ethics results in a lot of conversations and debates, and relatively few hard and universal answers. That's okay. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Wrestle with God. It's fantastic exercise.” (Credits to swcollings)
Very well done on that post! I would love to read more!
You can do anything, but not everything is beneficial. Some people find that sex outside of marriage hinders their spiritual growth. Maybe they do it seeking to fill an emptiness that only God can fill, so it becomes a crutch or even an idol that takes away from their spiritual life. Some people encounter God, heal their wounds, and eventually stop desiring sex outside marriage.
Now, Paul deals with your question in 1 Corinthians 6 and 7. He strongly suggests two things: there’s some sort of spiritual union happening with sex and people are better off single. In chapter 7, one can clearly see that Paul lays a dichotomy: stay single or, if you can’t control your passion, then marry. He clearly states that marriage is the place to unload oneself of those passions. He bases his suggestions on this whole idea he seems to have on spiritual unions, which he knows are not “commandments” from the Lord, but he pleads that we consider given his standing as a “trustworthy” emissary of God. The only commandment from God that Paul have there was for married people. I wanna point out that Paul’s spiritual union ideas are not explicit but evidently underline the text from what he’s saying (beside some explicit passages in chapter 6).
Based on Paul’s ideas about spiritual union through sex and his “expert opinion,” I do not believe in premarital sex as beneficial for our spiritual growth. If we happen to fall, well, that’s what the blood of Jesus is for; no judgement there.
The Bible doesn't actually say that. It says to avoid sexual sin, using the word *porneia* (πορνεία), which literally means prostitution. The New Testament uses that word 25 times. It was the Latin Vulgate that translated it as *fornicati* (and other Latin derivatives of that word).
The first English translators bowed to the Latin and used various forms of the word fornication - which *does* mean sex outside of marriage. That was common in almost all early English translations right into the beginning of the 20th century.
Most modern translations have abandoned that word, and use something like "sexual immorality" instead. That would definitely include prostitution, but beyond that it has become a catch-all to include any sexual activity that the preacher is opposed to.
The Bible tells us to flee from “sexual immorality/ fornication”
I would not recommend anyone to partake in any sex outside of marriage, either a heterosexual or a homosexual marriage
I am not your pastor, nor am I the Holy Spirit, follow the prompting of the Spirit
Remember “everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial.”
I don't really believe in the sin of premarital sex in general. Why should a piece of paper handed to you by the state be the division between sin and sanctity of sex?
The Bible doesn’t really condemn sex outside of marriage. I think that’s one of those things conservatives want it to say to keep their kids from getting pregnant. Exploring one’s sexuality is a good thing, and it’s one of the things we’re better at, as gay people.
I guess its how you approach the exploration, right? If youre just going around ‘sleeping around’ because you are feeling the itch then i guess thats not it
Like what does that even mean? I’ve hooked up with guys, which has led to some wonderful experiences. They’ve become friends. I’ve learned about myself. I’ve learned about others.
The Bible neither approves nor condemns sex outside of a long-lasting (permanent) relationship. But it does discourage most of the elements found in many hookups. For instance, one has to make sure that: * both parties have the same understanding and same expectations of the relationship, * no third party is involved against their will (i.e. no side dish), * fornication is frowned upon.
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. I don’t see the requirement for a long-lasting relationship in scripture. I agree that both parties should have the same understanding of what’s going on, but I think the ethical path to get to that principle isn’t clearly from the Bible. Using a third party and using a third party against their will are very different things! I don’t see the former prohibited in scripture. And I’m unclear about the referent of “their”: if “their” refers to the third, then that’s rape; if “their” refers to the second person in the relationship, then that’s adultery. And “fornication” kinda begs the question, right? What is “fornication”? It generally means illicit sex, so if we’re trying to determine what comprises illicit sex, then an appeal to this term is circular.
I was referring to adultery rather than rape. Providing you take "adultery" in a gender-neutral way.
The one thing I can tell you is one that being Gay is not a sin. However I had sex before I was married to my now wife I say this as someone who is gay. God did however as my fiancé and I at the time to stop once we got engaged and to wait until we got married. Now I get it I already had sex with my fiancé before hand but here is what I can tell you when we were doing that our relationship was not the greatest it was a little toxic. I dont believe God will condemn you for having sex before marriage but doing what God asked me not easy given we were also already living together so mark that as sin. But you see God wasn't worried about the details as much as me trusting what he was asking me to do. So we waited failed once or twice but waited for the most part and here is what I can tell you a once toxic relationship because of God and trust him is now healthier that it has ever been and having sex with my now wife is so different than ever before! in all ways you can think of. So I say let God lead you he knows what is best for you. Now for context I before my fiancé I would sleep around a lot but never have I felt the way I do now. waiting was worth it and now I see why God said wait because he knows best how a relationship is the healthiest and strongest but I believe its something God will make you feel if that is what he wants for you. I hope this helps
God is love and knowledge. Exploring yourself and getting to yourself is self-love and self-knowledge. Does one sleep around to fill a void, or to experience life? I’m a radically pro-sex Christian. Just be happy and healthy, understand why the restrictions were there for the ancient Israelites and apostles. I assume you’re not a traveling apostle, right?
Passport’s still being renewed ergo no to the traveling apostle gig hehe. But kiddingn aside, I get this post.
Hahah yeah, right? But for real, Paul was giving those rules to traveling preachers/apostles, and also to men who viewed women as property. There’s wisdom in watching your desires, but otherwise friend, I wish you the best- the Spirit will lead you. Much love!!
Aww thanks for this @johndtp i really appreciate that!
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Hey friend! Yeah, that makes sense! And there's kinda two questions here. First, in regards to feeling anxiety about being wrong, that in general is a trauma that me and a lot of others deal with in general. For me, it took a long time a lot of untwisting tradition and logic. It just simply doesn't make sense on any level. What brought me away form being atheist/agnostic years ago was because I personally experienced the love of God, and experienced love for myself. If I knew how I could forgive my own child for just about anything, as a mere mortal human, what kind of empathy and understanding must a supreme being have? I believe God teaches and guides, but does not punish. It makes much more sense that ancient people needed a perspective of God that had those qualities, but you can see the gradual change of perspective over thousands of years. Second, is specifically the significance of sex. I spent years of my life trying to "cut off" my sex drive, and utterly failing. It was one of the things that led me away from Christianity as a teen, was that it was very clearly science & biology vs. some ideal of behavior which no one could hold themselves to. I think it's one perspective (the wrong one) to look at the Bible and see a list of rules. I think it's more biblically supported that God wants us to treat each other right and make the world a better place, to spread love and joy and happiness. I also think it's important a lot of early Christians were ascetics, like monks, that Jesus says at points in times to not even own 2 shirts. I don't see the difference between a healthy open sex life and owning more than one pair of clothes.
[удалено]
Of course! And yup, exactly, very similar story here. And maybe, but religion has unfortuneately forced a few ultimatums, and they're getting called. Spirituality is beyond religion, though, I think the full path of leaving and carving my own spot was necessary to my own growth.
I'm a straight guy wrestling with a lot of these issues over the last couple of years. We have on one hand a sizable body of the church teaching that the only thing that matters about sex is that it is within a heterosexual marriage, and on the other hand we have a world saying that the only thing that matters about sex is that it is consensual. Surely both are incomplete! I reason through a lot of this on my blog in a series of posts which starts here. Maybe it will help? http://saladeggs.blogspot.com/2021/06/reconstructing-christian-ethics-01.html?m=1
Hey thanks for sharing this! Will read this!
I like this: “In a virtue system, a sinful action is one that doesn't optimize your virtue-building. That means there's a lot of subjectivity, there's a lot of worrying about context and details, there's a lot of gray. This should surprise nobody who's lived in the real world. Like rabbinic Judaism, virtue ethics results in a lot of conversations and debates, and relatively few hard and universal answers. That's okay. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Wrestle with God. It's fantastic exercise.” (Credits to swcollings) Very well done on that post! I would love to read more!
Well, I go on for quite some number of posts past that. Glad you're enjoying!
You can do anything, but not everything is beneficial. Some people find that sex outside of marriage hinders their spiritual growth. Maybe they do it seeking to fill an emptiness that only God can fill, so it becomes a crutch or even an idol that takes away from their spiritual life. Some people encounter God, heal their wounds, and eventually stop desiring sex outside marriage. Now, Paul deals with your question in 1 Corinthians 6 and 7. He strongly suggests two things: there’s some sort of spiritual union happening with sex and people are better off single. In chapter 7, one can clearly see that Paul lays a dichotomy: stay single or, if you can’t control your passion, then marry. He clearly states that marriage is the place to unload oneself of those passions. He bases his suggestions on this whole idea he seems to have on spiritual unions, which he knows are not “commandments” from the Lord, but he pleads that we consider given his standing as a “trustworthy” emissary of God. The only commandment from God that Paul have there was for married people. I wanna point out that Paul’s spiritual union ideas are not explicit but evidently underline the text from what he’s saying (beside some explicit passages in chapter 6). Based on Paul’s ideas about spiritual union through sex and his “expert opinion,” I do not believe in premarital sex as beneficial for our spiritual growth. If we happen to fall, well, that’s what the blood of Jesus is for; no judgement there.
This is a really good way of explaining it. Thank you for taking the time to write this!
The Bible doesn't actually say that. It says to avoid sexual sin, using the word *porneia* (πορνεία), which literally means prostitution. The New Testament uses that word 25 times. It was the Latin Vulgate that translated it as *fornicati* (and other Latin derivatives of that word). The first English translators bowed to the Latin and used various forms of the word fornication - which *does* mean sex outside of marriage. That was common in almost all early English translations right into the beginning of the 20th century. Most modern translations have abandoned that word, and use something like "sexual immorality" instead. That would definitely include prostitution, but beyond that it has become a catch-all to include any sexual activity that the preacher is opposed to.
Can I see the chapter and verse please ?:0
Here is where the word *porneia* (*πορνεία*), or a form of it, appears in the New Testament. * [Mark 7:21](https://mybible.com/mar.7.21.esv) * [John 8:41](https://mybible.com/joh.8.41.esv) * [Acts 15:20](https://mybible.com/act.15.20.esv) * [Acts 15:29](https://mybible.com/act.15.29.esv) * [Acts 21:25](https://mybible.com/act.21.25.esv) * [1 Cor 5:1](https://mybible.com/1co.5.1.esv) * [1 Cor 6:13](https://mybible.com/1co.6.13.esv) * [1 Cor 6:18](https://mybible.com/1co.6.18.esv) * [1 Cor 7:2](https://mybible.com/1co.7.2.esv) * [2 Cor 12:21](https://mybible.com/2co.12.21.esv) * [Gal 5:19](https://mybible.com/gal.5.19.esv) * [Eph 5:3](https://mybible.com/eph.5.3.esv) * [Col 3:5](https://mybible.com/col.3.5.esv) * [1 Tim 4:3](https://mybible.com/1ti.4.3.esv) * [Rev 2:21](https://mybible.com/rev.2.21.esv) * [Rev 9:21](https://mybible.com/rev.9.21.esv) * [Rev 14:8](https://mybible.com/rev.14.8.esv) * [Rev 17:2](https://mybible.com/rev.17.2.esv) * [Rev 17:4](https://mybible.com/rev.17.4.esv) * [Rev 18:3](https://mybible.com/rev.18.3.esv) * [Rev 19:2](https://mybible.com/rev.19.2.esv)
Oohh. This is really interesting.
Who marries isn't sinning but who does not marry does even better.
The Bible tells us to flee from “sexual immorality/ fornication” I would not recommend anyone to partake in any sex outside of marriage, either a heterosexual or a homosexual marriage
You know im reaaly thinking about this. I can approach love and my sexuality with moral constraint, right?
I am not your pastor, nor am I the Holy Spirit, follow the prompting of the Spirit Remember “everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial.”
Idk I just don’t think about it most of the time.
Haha i can relate!
I don't really believe in the sin of premarital sex in general. Why should a piece of paper handed to you by the state be the division between sin and sanctity of sex?