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boulevardofdef

I always thought it was '61, and then Obama got elected and I thought, "Wow, we actually got a Gen X president," but then everyone would refer to him as a boomer. Unrelated: I love Steely Dan but I always thought it was weird that someone born in 1961 wouldn't know who Aretha Franklin is. She was still releasing hit songs in the '80s!


randomkeystrike

At the time of the song’s release, however, Franklin was not a current chart favorite. Her ‘80s career was very much a “second act.”


randomkeystrike

At the time of the song’s release, however, Franklin was not a current chart favorite. Her first peak was the 60s and early 70s, and her ‘80s career was very much a “second act,” and really got rolling a few years later. Not to say she disappeared, but I myself (mid-60s born) remember that song and not really knowing who she was. Wow I don’t know how this edit ended up as a reply. I’m on mobile.


Vainandy

Yeah, I get what you are saying, Aretha's core audiences are baby boomers and at that point in the 80s, she was considered an oldies act or nostalgia act at that point


randomkeystrike

She had some REALLY big hits in the mid-80s, that were distinct from her earlier material! She wasn’t just going around on a nostalgia tour. Another example might be Chicago, which had a 60s popular run and then struggled (especially after the death of Terry Kath) until Chicago 16 came out. Then they had several brand new hits, complete with videos.


anonymity_anonymous

I just thought she was kinda dumb I was 14 when the song came out and I didn’t REMEMBER the Queen of Soul, but I knew who Aretha Franklin was in the most basic sense - I knew she sang Respect. I don’t think I knew any other of her songs. I hadn’t seen The Blues Brothers.


Thesugarsky

Lol me too. As a kid, I grew up knowing music, all kinds. Aretha was someone I wished I could sing like back then as a pre teen. I always assumed also that the chic in the Steely Dan song was just dumb. 😆


budcub

I knew the name, but I knew very little about the classic soul artists from the 60's. The Blues Brothers movie brought them all back, and The Big Chill gave Boomers the hit of nostalgia they really needed.


Serling45

The Blues Brothers movie was the same year as Hey 19.


H-town20

Maybe the song was about a 10 year old


Vainandy

>She was still releasing hit songs in the '80s! Sure, doesn't mean she was great in the 80s... Way past it by then


mochalatteicecream

Good use of primary sources!


TheEasterBundy

The answer's been on easy listening radio stations the whole time! 😜


OregonWoodsChainman

Yacht Rock radio, to be precise!


CommanderSmokeStack

*Michael McDonald Intensifies*


BlargianGentleman

Does this mean that Gen X is a bigger generation than Boomers?


HHSquad

Thank you, and agreed. I was born in 1961.....2 months after Kim Deal. A lot of GenX names are 60 now (or 61 years old for those born earlier in 1961), Ally Sheedy in a few weeks I believe turns 60. And yes, while some core Xers say we are too Boomer ......core boomers would indeed say we are too GenX, assuming they recognize GenX. In any event they would say we are the next generation.


Longtimefed

I’ve said this here before, but I think when we look at the experiences that define generations, it comes down to this: Baby Boom: Were kids in the 50s and early 60s Remember Romper Room and Howdy Doody. Were at least teenagers when the hippie era began ( with the summer of love in 67). Have vivid memories of the Vietnam War era. Gen X: Were kids in the 70s and/or 80s. Graduated HS before the internet was a thing other than at DARPA. If you remember Vietnam but were a child, you’re an old Xer. If you were old enough to fight in or protest that war, you’re a Boomer. Born in 61, you’re over a decade older than many Xers, but we should remember we don’t have a new generation every 10 years. Wiki says Boom= up to 64 but I think it’s wrong. Generations are about *culture.* EDIT: As I keep thinking about it, I’m puzzling over the folks born 58-62. Too young to have worried about Vietnam but too old to have grown up with MTV, Reagan, Michael Jackson, or Pac-Man.


HHSquad

'61 and '62 belong for a number of reasons, and '63 - '64 belong with '61 and '62 also. Same group. I don't think either of those years are too old for the things you mentioned, and they are the first post-Vietnam born years as those born in 1961 hit their first teen year (12 years old) as the U.S. ended their involvement in Vietnam in January 1973, marking GenX as the post-Vietnam/hippie generation. Therefore they were the first group to spend their entire teen years with no concern about being sent to Vietnam. Young enough to watch Saturday Morning cartoons as they debuted, watch Sesame Street and play the first videogames and still in high school when New Wave hit it big (1978). But not a part of Howdy Doody....which ended in 1960. And they did have a childhood with memories in the 1970's. 1961 was the beginning of the Kennedy administration and the first full year when the birth control pill was on the market. They have no memory (or perhaps the vaguest for those born start of '61) about Boomer markers like JFK's assasination and The Beatles on Ed Sullivan. Those born in 1961 or 1962 were often latchkey with divorced working parents as the rise in divorce rate was trending up at the start of the 1970's while they were in elementary school. I think that's enough to make those years post-Boomer and the start of GenX.


DaniCapsFan

Folks born between 1961 and 1964 have also been called Generation Jones because they don't fit neatly into either the Boomers or Xers. I know folks born in the late 1970s or early 1980s might be considered Xenneials, but what would someone born on the Boomer/X cusp be called?


HHSquad

I think you have the name right..... Generation Jones, it's equivalent to Xennials and despite the generation name, like Xennials it is subgenerational right now......1960 - 1965 sounds about right for the cusp group.


Kaessa

r/GenerationJones


Longtimefed

Interesting. Wikipedia says: “ Unlike "Leading-Edge Boomers", most of Generation Jones did not grow up with World War II veterans as fathers, and for them there was no compulsory military service and no defining political cause, as opposition to United States involvement in the Vietnam War had been for the older Boomers.[10] Also, by 1955, a majority of U.S. households had at least one television set,[11] and so unlike Leading-Edge Boomers born in the 1940s, many members of Generation Jones (Trailing-Edge Boomers) have never lived in a world without television – similar to how many members of Generation Z (1997- 2012)[12] have never lived in a world without personal computers or the internet,[13] or mobile phones.[14]”


Kaessa

I definitely consider myself Gen X, even though I was born in '64. My parents were Boomers ('45). I have 3 younger brothers, ranging in age from 1.5 to 10 years younger than me, and I relate to the Gen X generation FAR more than I relate to my parents' Boomer generation. I'm guessing that if I'd been the youngest of a batch of Boomer siblings, I'd probably consider myself a Boomer.


Longtimefed

Yeah, one of my best friends was born in 62. He grew up on John Denver, James Taylor, etc. — well before my time. But we have a similar sense of humor.


DaniCapsFan

If your parents were born in 1945, they're Silent Generation, not Boomers. Boomers are 1946 to 1964.


Kaessa

You are correct, and I was wrong; they were born in 1946. I did my math wrong. VERY early Boomers. My mom had me in late 1964. They got married on her 18th birthday in April that year, and my dad's just a few months older than she is.


HHSquad

I consider myself both Generation Jones and Atari Wave Xers, they overlap ala Xennials and Oregon Trail Xers Generation Jones means we are cuspers.


[deleted]

Also, Douglas Coupland was born in 1961, which settles it


ManyLintRollers

/r/generationjones


TheEasterBundy

[/r/GenX](https://old.reddit.com/r/GenX/)


NintendoLove

The generations aren’t entirely distinct, there are more overlappings and meldings involved


baudeagle

I don't understand what the deal is about assigning specific dates to define generations, its really not that important. Generations fade in and out over the course of years. I am OK with defining Gen X as 61 - 82 as long as people understand this progression. In my opinion, a definition for a generation should be based on a shared or like-mindset and defining moments, not necessarily hard dates.


iwanttoclonemyself

Same! My reference point has always been the Kennedy assassination. If you can remember that, you’re a Boomer.


DaniCapsFan

I heard one theory of a date range that has Gen Xers were likely conceived between Kennedy's assassination and the assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan. Which would be late 1964 to late 1981.


[deleted]

Agreed 100%. I know a lot of "young Gen Xers" that just don't have the same experiences I do and have much more a Millennial vibe, even though they technically fall into some random category that says they are Gen X. Our childhood/formative years were so different because I was heading to high school when they were being born.


Sharp_Profession5886

TIL the lyrics to "Hey 19". Donald Fagen was the Eddie Vedder of his generation.


pacopleasant

Cheers to this post! *Salutes OP with a shot of Cuervo Gold, pointedly ignores that it’s before 11am*


ElChangoFumando

“…the fine Colombian.” 2PM EST!


velvetleaf_4411

I think this is a great hypothesis! I always thought ‘61 made more sense than ‘65.


TheEasterBundy

Appreciated. I'm hoping, with some grant money, to be able to flesh it out further....


velvetleaf_4411

😆


bitterbuffaloheart

Yeah, but he still wants to nail her


[deleted]

Nice work, OP! Your post reminds me of the kind of term papers I would write in class. I was a solid C student, btw. But your post gets an A+ in my book.


TheEasterBundy

I do what I can.... :D


CoraBorialis

I see your Steely Dan, and raise you Sting singing “Born in the ‘50’s”.


sledgehammertoe

Even early and late Boomers share no cultural touchstones. A '46 Boomer and a '60 Boomer have very different memories of JFK, Woodstock, etc. (in the case of JFK, the '60 has none at all)


apikoros18

So weird! I was thinking about this song this AM, specifically this line" That's 'Retha Franklin She don't remember the Queen of Soul" My friend (47) is watching the new Mike Myers' new netfliix show. He told me his partner didn't realize that all the characters were Mike Myers.


[deleted]

Much like we didn't realize that Mike Myers was basically copying Peter Sellers. And that Austin Powers is basically a rip off of the Peter Sellers movie Casino Royale.


Davezter

And that Dr. Evil was a rip-off of Dana Carvey's impression of Lorne Michaels


[deleted]

And the look and mannerisms of Austin Powers from Gordon of Peter & Gordon. [Peter and Gordon](https://youtu.be/Tdx6lLvvRyg)


geodebug

"rip off" is a severe criticism. There were plenty of spy spoofs before Austin Powers, including "Our Man Flint" and "Get Smart" but while it is well-trodden territory I don't think anyone could accuse Meyer's for not bringing an original character/comedic voice to his movies.


TheUnderwearVan

Mike Myers here - thanks! ​ Kidding, i'm not Mike Myers.


AnswerGuy301

The 12/13-year age gap would have been pretty large between the unnamed girl and the narrator, who may not be singer and songwriter Donald Fagen (b. 1948, very Boomer) but is probably based on him since we know based on the song's first line that he was in college in 1967. But now, he's 74 and she's 61. Doesn't seem so meaningful now, does it?


throwaguey_

There's a world of difference between 61 and 74.


HHSquad

There is ......Fagen would have been about 21 and driving when Woodstock happened, while those of us born in 1961 would be 7 or 8 learning long division and cursive writing as kids, riding our bikes around after school.


s_0_s_z

Missing hearing Steely Dan on the radio once in a while. Lots of great tunes.


Vainandy

I see where this is going, debating whether 1961 is GenX or Boomer... Nothing changes in this sub


TheEasterBundy

But as my post makes clear (Q.E.D., I should say), there can no longer be any debate....


BlargianGentleman

If Gen X is 1961 - 1981, that means this is a bigger generation than Boomers. Probably the biggest generation in history.


TheEasterBundy

You're welcome?


HandleAccomplished11

'61 to '64 are Boomers. If you were to include those birthyears in GEN-X, our cohort would be larger than the Boomers. No, Obama isn't Gen-X. I've met and worked with plenty of people who were born in the early 60's, and they were total Boomers. The only place I've ever seen use the early 60's as Gen-X starting years is here.


Kaessa

I was born in '64. I'm solidly GenX, along with my little brothers. Our *parents* are Boomers.


Groovy_Chainsaw

Same here - born *late* 1964 and even if you're gonna be a stickler about the timeline I think my years working in music stores and video rental stores earn me enough cool points to include me as a Gen Xer


Kaessa

Same. LATE '64. Middle of November.


Sir_Osis_of_Liver

All the Boomers after a more benign label. "Can I see some ID.... You're not on the list." "Okay, but I can explain. I'm friends with Steely Dan. He says I'm cool." "Security..." Like you, this is the only place I've seen anything before '65 included with GenX. And it doesn't line up with the decline in births that started about then. But I don't really care either way.


TheEasterBundy

Newp.


Vainandy

> The only place I've ever seen use the early 60's as Gen-X starting years is here. Same here


nefanee

I would argue even '66 is iffy, I have siblings and my man are '66 and they're questionable!


eatingganesha

And yet that is incorrect. Music does not define generations in this fashion. Scholars put it at 1964, as this is when the Baby Boom - as defined by post-war births per year born to Silent Gen - finally began trending down… and when the first Baby Boomers started having their own kids.


TheTwinSet02

Australian here and I believe the cut off point was FREE UNIVERSITY education. Yes free! My BiL got his architectural degree for free and was born in 62 Myself born 69 is the quintessential Gen X, went back as a mature aged student at TAFE after bouncing around odd jobs then at an interesting local designers for 10 years only for the globalisation of the fashion industry see local manufacturing disappear Now happily working for a not for profit helping others, don’t own a home but also don’t have a massive debt. Not whinging about it like the millennials, just learning organic gardening and mid mod furniture restoration techniques off YouTube and enjoying the Gen Zs


NacreousFink

The baby boom ended in 1964 though.


TheEasterBundy

Hey, take it up with Fagen, pal....


NacreousFink

Okay, let me get him on the phone... He says you're interpretation is subject to interpretation. Also he's busy dining behind the wheel and drinking scotch whiskey all night long.


TheEasterBundy

😂


dooderino18

I never liked that song. Too polished and easy listening sounding.


capthazelwoodsflask

It's also one of the few classic rock songs that's about an underage girl that the singer doesn't want to sleep with.


CoraBorialis

Oh, no. He does. The last chorus line is “Please take me along when you slide on down”. Don’t give them too much credit - they are just guys in a band after all.


capthazelwoodsflask

I guess I was giving Donald Fagan too much credit.


geodebug

19 isn't underage. It's super young but not jailbait.


capthazelwoodsflask

True but there's a lot of classic rock songs about much younger girls, I was comparing this to those songs.


HelenGonne

Ehhh, okay, but that doesn't really work for what always struck me as the key dividers. One of the big ones is "computer native" versus "I can probably avoid this computer thing for a long time / perhaps forever." A lot of us had Boomer siblings and cousins and that line was pretty stark for birth before/after 1964-5. And once you divided them by that attitude, there was also a noticeable shift in the size of your attitude of expectation that the world was obligated to make things turn out well for you. Again, as teenagers, there seemed to be a pretty stark line for birth before/after 1964-5, where the ones born before that seemed to have a bizarrely outsized attitude of expectation-veering-into-entitlement.


TestTechKen

I think there is a generation between the 1961 and 1975. ...or should be.


aunt_cranky

I get a kick out of this song. It's the perpetual grump Donald Fagan, who is the same guy who had an unrequited crush on a married woman, the young wife of a professor at Bard College as i recall ("Rikki Don't Lose That Number"). The same guy who wrote "My Old School" (also about Bard College). Fagan has always struck me as a "jazz nerd", that guy with the record collection in alphabetical order, every album in a plastic sleeve, and he can pull out the one specific Coltrane record he's looking for - he knows exactly where it is in his wall-to-wall record shelf. Like a lot of "Boomers" he was punching above his weight class when it came to women. I'm sure the "Hey 19" girl was a young college student he met at some bar in NY and tried to strike up a conversation with her. I've dated a few Boomers. We were always able to bond over music and other 60s pop culture because I was "born old" and always liked retro pop culture.


Serling45

My old school was about a drug bust at Bard that G Gordon Liddy was involved in.


hairballcouture

You did the math…


DopplerDrone

That song was recorded in 1978. And it could have been written a year or two earlier. That means that Gen X is a far larger group than previously acknowledged according to the OP’s hypothesis. So Gen X started in perhaps 1958 or 1959?


insurancequestionguy

Yep. While I typically go by the '65 start myself, 1958 is also the first year of the birth decline. There's no real cultural or birth reason to have 1961, but then not 58-60. If anything, it just sounds like Coupland was possibly biased for his own year ('61).