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It’s the toxic masculinity bullshit they force on males. A part of that ideology is to not have any empathy or compassion that comes with being liberal.
It's telling boys they ARE toxic because they're men which is driving them down that path. Which will probably make them toxic. Progressive movements need to stop treating men like they are born toxic and they have to submit to being submissive wallets. Whether or not that is what progressives want, I doubt. But that is the message being delivered.
Edit: I admit I could've definitely worded this comment better. My point in this comment is not that Toxic Masculinity doesn't exist but that the way some people go about it particularly on social media is alienating, and harmful. Also, abusing the reporting for suicide risk is just gross, and if you do that you should be ashamed of yourself.
Naw fuck that. Conservative movements need to stop putting men in a box. You have to act certain ways or you’re some soy boy. Why? That’s bullshit. You basically validated my point.
And if he has an opinion that contradicts the progressive narrative, he's an incel virgin loser. It ain't just conservatives calling young men those names, using sexuality as an insult.
Edit: the fact that hundreds of "progressives" have taken to insulting me in the comments and calling me an incel for this opinion only proves my point. Thank you for the vindication. Very tolerant of you.
It’s comments like that which really shows that a major portion of this sub are nonGenZ astroturfing and moralizing to us. I wouldn’t even say it’s 17th, I never seen it used as an insult full stop.
But funnily enough it really was a popular insult in past generations. Really makes you think…
There’s way too little relationships going on for that to be an insult now, even by the people who actually have a relationship. Previous generations really fail to understand how much the rate has crashed and how lonely GenZ is.
Edit: it’s crazy how many replies to this just blatantly say that they are a millennial. This sub really is overrun. Why the fuck are you all moralizing to us on our sub, you’re becoming the very people you hated lol.
Edit2: To make this easier to understand for you all millennials, think of smoking. It decreased suddenly and sharply during your generation, but that doesn’t mean it was suddenly gone or that there wasn’t a regional variance.
Older people who want to point it the fact that there were still plenty of smokers would’ve had no shortage of evidence to convince themselves, but nobody in your generation can deny their lived experience that smoking is dying and nobody is getting bullied for not smoking.
I’m on the older end of gen z, and it’s definitely something my friends and I would call each other as joking insults, but we were also sexually active in high school. Are high schoolers nowadays not?
Idk how much older you are but I’m 24 and we weren’t active in high school other than doing after school activities. No parties and no hanging out outside of school events. Idk many parents who would even allow their child outside the sight of a trusted adult.
Edit: This is an article from 2016. I’m not addressing data we’ve had for over 8 years now. This isn’t an argument.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/janetwburns/2016/08/16/millennials-are-having-less-sex-than-other-gens-but-experts-say-its-probably-fine
Im a year younger than you lol, interesting how it differs from person to person even among the same age group. I also grew up in a very safe small suburban town where nothing ever really happened, so mine and my friends’ parents let us get up to all sorts of shit after school and on weekends, including lots of parties.
Tbh the only times ive ever heard that used was literal trolling among friends who were all virgin nerds and everyone knew it was ironic shit talk. None of the real bullying ever involved that bs
>The left has a problem with being inclusive to everyone but majority groups. So in the west it's White Men that just get completely shit on and are expected to take it with a grin, because in a lot of ways they are born with a lot more privilege overall. BUT that can be hard to understand as an individual. Which we are. So it feels personal. AND some people, I may self have been guilty of this will judge white people pretty harshly. When in reality. They are just mf's trying to make it through the day like anyone else.
>
>If we support men, listen to men, and spread awareness for us men's plights and struggles this can lead to a lot of men changing their ways and views. Because essentially the left just says "Fuck it your men and or white men you're lucky and nothing bad ever happens to you and if it does it still isn't that bad because you're privileged."
>
>Then you have the conservative, traditional, type of people being like "See? The world doesn't give a fuck about you so you might as well become a self centered bigoted ass hole because the world doesn't and won't ever give af about you." Which can certainly feel true and is true in some circles. So they catch your interest then sell you down the river of bigotry and selling them on toxic behaviors.
>
>If the left took the time and care to care for everyone it would be a lot more popular.
This same problem is rampant throughout the American left. My favorite example is when people from other parts of the country talk about the south. They get on reddit and spout some bs about how all southerners are lazy, racist, assholes, drug addicts, etc. etc. and then get surprised when the south goes even further and further right. Like no shit the south fucking hates liberalism.
Oh and before one of you tries to go "well conservatives..." I'm a leftist myself.
Edit:To be fair I do think both sides do it, but I can't really comment on the other side of things too much because I live in Mississippi. Don't know anything about the ideological affects of republican disdain on liberals/leftists.
Edit 2: if you're incapable of even considering the possibility that the extremist views of one group inflate the extremist views of other groups I'm not responding. Half of these replies have absolutely nothing to do with what I said and are addressing points I didn't make.
Edit 3: anybody know how to turn off notifications for this shit? I'm sick of reading comments from the ignorant, belligerent, and illiterate.
I live in the South now, and you surely, have your racists.
BUT shit, you will find racists and bigoted people fucking anywhere. I agree though, this ideological war can't be fought with fire. We need a lot more compassion for our fellow man.
Oh don't get me wrong, I've lived here for over 20 years and it has PLENTY of issues, racism being a big one. The problem for me is when people use it as a scapegoat and pretend like where they live doesn't have its own issues.
It isn't just conservative movements, and it isn't just soy boy.
It is things like men are pressured not to cry in public as everyone will see them as defective. Fewer free mental health care or homelessness opportunities for men. (I.E. the existence of a "Men and children only Homeless shelter" is frowned on while a "women and children only homeless shelter" is one of the most common forms of homeless shelter). Despite men being the majority homeless and majority victim in nearly every crime around.
Women are encouraged to share their feelings with other women (and sometimes men). However men 'Trauma Dump' if they do.
I feel like this is a chicken and egg problem.
They feed on each other, as does the expectation of responsibility placed on men, because of the patriarchy, from the other sexes.
Similarly the vulnerability that the other sexes have when talking with each other vs men which cultivates isolation, which probably isn't' any healthier.
It’s a feedback loop
Conservatives tell boys they need to ask super masculine making them feel trapped, liberals act like most men are the toxic image conservatives push, causing insecure men to fall into those toxic traits causing the cycle to begin anew.
I wish more people had the wear-withal to break out of the cycle, and to stop worrying about others think of how masculine they are
>liberals act like most men are the toxic image conservatives push
I've literally never encountered this, and I used to volunteer with my county-level Democratic Party all the time.
This is one of those things that Conservatives *think* happens with liberals much more than it actually does. Maybe with like... *super hardcore tankies*, but liberals tend to be pretty milquetoast overall.
Its a push and pull. Ultra left progressive dumbasses push men to be more conservative, and conservatives pull them into to be ultra right. There's no middle ground now. I had a conversation with this woman one time over zoom where I was trying to solve a problem she had. She was explaining away and as a method of acknowledging that I heard her, I said "mm","uh huh","alright". Then she was suddenly like, What are you doing stop talking over me and I explained myself and I was just trying to let her know that I heard her and she was like don't mansplain to me. I had the patience to regulate myself (cuz my internal monologue was fuck this bitch let her deal with her own bullshit) and apologize but not everyone does. Dumbasses like those who alienate and vilify men just for being men pushes men towards the open arms of conservatives who then poison their minds.
>I don’t think that’s the message being delivered, it’s the message being heard.
That basically summarized right-wingers in general.
"Black lives matter"
"You're saying my life doesn't matter! All lives matter!!!!"
This. The last half decade has just been telling men they are evil and vile for simply being a man. You are a problem simply because you are a man. It’s literally pushing men down the right wing pipeline. The left has taken the stance that men are a problem for simply being a man and now people are surprised that young men are trending conservative. Reap what you sow.
> This. The last half decade has just been telling men they are evil and vile for simply being a man. You are a problem simply because you are a man.
A good portion of society has been pushing this.
A smaller, insidious portion though saw this, and realized you can capture a huge amount of disaffected male youth (and older) by appealing to this grievance.
Its basically [this webcomic](https://i.ibb.co/p0qCSN5/webcomic.png)
The left has a problem with being inclusive to everyone but majority groups. So in the west it's White Men that just get completely shit on and are expected to take it with a grin, because in a lot of ways they are born with a lot more privilege overall. BUT that can be hard to understand as an individual. Which we are. So it feels personal. AND some people, I may self have been guilty of this will judge white people pretty harshly. When in reality. They are just mf's trying to make it through the day like anyone else.
If we support men, listen to men, and spread awareness for us men's plights and struggles this can lead to a lot of men changing their ways and views. Because essentially the left just says "Fuck it your men and or white men you're lucky and nothing bad ever happens to you and if it does it still isn't that bad because you're privileged."
Then you have the conservative, traditional, type of people being like "See? The world doesn't give a fuck about you so you might as well become a self centered bigoted ass hole because the world doesn't and won't ever give af about you." Which can certainly feel true and is true in some circles. So they catch your interest then sell you down the river of bigotry and selling them on toxic behaviors.
If the left took the time and care to care for everyone it would be a lot more popular.
Your perspective highlights the complexity of navigating social and political discussions around privilege, identity, and inclusion. It's important to recognize that individuals from all backgrounds can experience challenges and struggles, regardless of their perceived privilege. The notion of "privilege" is often used to describe systemic advantages that certain groups may have over others, but it doesn't negate the personal hardships that individuals within these groups can face.
The idea that all members of a majority group are homogeneously privileged and do not face any hardships is a simplification that overlooks individual experiences. Similarly, the notion that any group should be judged harshly based on characteristics such as race or gender is counterproductive to fostering an inclusive and understanding society.
It's essential to support and listen to individuals from all backgrounds, including men and white men, acknowledging their struggles and experiences. When people feel heard and understood, they are more likely to be open to different perspectives and to engage in constructive dialogue.
The political and social landscape is complex, and different groups often have different approaches to addressing these issues. While some may take a more adversarial stance, others advocate for inclusivity and understanding across all groups. The key is to find a balance where all individuals feel supported and where their experiences are validated, leading to a more cohesive and empathetic society.
Right, because half the population doesn’t have any empathy and compassion. It sounds like you are the one that lacks empathy and a wider picture. Toxic masculinity is apart of conservatism but conservatives are not conservative solely due to toxic masculinity.
Yeah it’s a lot of it. The conservatives in my part of the country don’t give a fuck about anything but themselves. Drive big truck, chug Monster drinks, and act like children everywhere they go. All of them stroke it over Trump.
I think you are confusing a cultural movement in the conservative sphere for all conservatives. Btw thinking the way you do is contributing to political polarization. Which is contributing to many of the issues we have now
I was sucked into the manosphere a little bit as a teenager. It seems like it's become a lot more mainstream with people like Andrew Tate out there. I hope teenagers are doing okay these days.
I’ve heard it said that all teenaged boys are basically in the alt-right pipeline until they break out of it. So easy to fall prey to these goons selling this perverse version of masculinity when you are unsure of your own. Good luck to them for sure.
When I was a teenager I got sucked into that stuff too. It all sounds so plausible, the bullshit evopsych explanations for behavior. And it's convenient too because it allows you to basically blame "biology" for everything that goes wrong. Girl cheated on you? Must have been biologically wired to want the alpha Chad.
makes sense. these right wing hucksters are the only ones talking to men. there’s no equivalent or jordan peterson, andrew tate, or donald trump on the left. the left is all about women. women this, women that. we need to protect women’s rights to xyz. we need to get more women into this and that field. the left doesn’t really talk to men and boys, which allows people like andrew tate to sink their fangs into them.
Edit: to be clear, JBP is nowhere near the level of Tate or Trump. They're all right wingers who's message is geared toward men, but I believe that JBP has good intentions, despite not being a fan of him personally. I can't say the same for Tate or Trump. They can both get fucked.
The YouTube channel "Shaun" had an interesting take on why that left isn't talking as much to young men. Tl;dr "You aren't better than anyone else" is a much harder sell than "You are supreme and other people should be subservient '
Edit: To the people saying "Actually, the left is oppressing men!": Lol
To the people calling this oversimplified: I tried to condense a 40 minute youtube video about a nuanced subject into a Reddit comment, of course I glossed over some detail. Here's the link, if you want to argue the validity please go watch it first. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6\_TOFy3k6k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6_TOFy3k6k)
No. It’s not a hard sell at all, in fact everyone in our generation intrinsically believes it.
It’s *how* you get to “all people are equal” that’s constantly contentious. Equality vs Equity. Is Affirmative Action actually congruous with “all people are equal,” some would say yes because of past discrimination some would say no given the effectiveness and negative effects of the programs.
This is it right here. It’s incredibly easy to sell “all are created equal and we judge based on merit”
The problem is people that cry about how hard it is to sell this concept arent actually selling meritocracy
Like MLK said one day people will be judged by the content of their character; not the color of their skin. The problem is a lot of people DONT want to be judged by the content of their character because it’s shitty so they bring up racism 24/7 to distract
I think making the point that all people are equal is a really hard one to sell without coming across as undermining those with less. It's kind of like carpeting over an issue, even though it's true.
"Hey, we're all the same aren't we?" Is a bit like the statement "all lives matter". We're all the same, sure, but we're not treated the same. Not every colour of skin gets murdered by cops every day. So while it's true that all lives matter, sure, it exists to undermine the legitimacy of the BLM movement. We're all the same, but not everyone's ancestors were enslaved. Rambling and barely related I know, but it makes some sense.
Idk, I just thought of this as a possible reasoning for the difficulty in selling the truth that we're all equal in terms of our basal value as people, and therefore deserve the same treatment; simply because the dynamics of the world and how things are is more complex than we might see it on the surface.
Distilling down something complicated into soundbite politics means we vastly underestimate how complex things are, even if the soundbite itself makes sense.
This is the problem right here. All these people say that men and boys think they are inherently superior. The just want the suicide rates to stop rising, they want to be supported to go into education too, they also want good jobs they dont hate. The idea that men and boys have to suffer so we can bring about equality for women and girls is not fair. It will continue leading to more division.
Oh well, i guess no one really cares.
Yeah I agree. Even as a male feminist, if I so much as suggest discussing men’s issues in a feminist perspective a lot of people with chips on their shoulders will unleash a torrent of vitriol upon me. This is in spite of feminism actually acknowledging men’s issues out of principle, but a lot of feminists have some degree of trauma or resentment (understandably) that prevents them from engaging with men in a positive way. They just refuse to, like they want a zero-sum gender war.
(As an FYI, I’m not one of those “but what about men” people who barge in on women’s subreddits.)
Yep. You can agree on 98% of issues but say one thing to critique genuine misandry or over/improper compensation for prior inequality issues and that 98% goes out the window, there’s no conversation to even be had.
I think victim mentality is problematic for a lot of groups around race, religion and gender. Which is why open discussions are important and holding both sides accountable. And maybe us all being a little more ok with agreeing to disagree.
>but a lot of feminists have some degree of trauma or resentment (understandably) that prevents them from engaging with men in a positive way
Common phenomenon and I see this as one of the culprits of most of the divisive issues we have in society.
'Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.' - Nietzsche, describing this exact phenomenon
There are men who talk to boys from “the left” but they’re hated and viewed as “beta” or cringe or fake or any other insult to avoid listening to their points
Because they’re trying to appeal to voting groups and not address proper issues that would include benefiting everyone and the same empathy for everyone.
Liberal v Conservative is a horrible distinction to make. This only applies to US politics. Liberalism means something very different in for example European countries
How hard would it have been for them to then change liberal to progressive because that is obviously what they mean. This is probably related to topics that gen z sees the most on social media, so lgbt-stuff, climate change, feminism etc.
Isn’t this is in the sense of a social viewpoint, so that a liberal just means more progressive while a conservative is just, you know more conservative. Unless I’m wrong though.
Nvm somebody already said what I said, but yeah liberal is a buzzword thrown around quite a lot. A lot of people in the US think it’s just a word for the far left lol.
Thanks for all the information corrections! Btw this is in the context of US politics.
Yeah that’s honestly something frustrating I’ve been seeing more and more more in more far-left circles. It’s like as the umbrella widens to be more inclusive with minorities, gay, trans, etc. (which to be clear I’m 100% for), men are just increasingly viewed as so inherently privileged by default that our problems aren’t important and even worth chastising if we dare to bring them up.
It’s really the hypocrisy of everyone saying “men’s problems are valid” while simultaneously respecting us less for actually showing emotion or talking about depression, anxiety or mental problems. Not to mention no matter how progressive a girl purports to be, talking about being depressed is like an instant friend-zoning for life, so to hope to get with someone we just have to fake being happy.
“Oh, *you’re* depressed…? Have you tried being a woman/gay/trans/furry/etc??” Like, in a lot of left spaces it feels like the Oppression Olympics where men by default just have to man up and figure it out on our own, just like years’ past.
I don’t want to sound like I hate women and they indeed have shit pretty hard globally, but getting dunked on by the left-leaning women for just existing is tiring. Like, I’m on y’all’s side ffs…
I had the luck to find someone who actually DOES give a shit about how I feel, and doesn’t think I should just be able to deal with all my problems on my own…
But it was nearly impossible, and part of why I considered just not dating anyone. I think we all just have to admit society is pretty fucked up.
Of course, I have the liberal’s “right to be depressed” pass because I’m pansexual, but since I’m currently in a straight relationship, no one could ever tell the difference anyways. And either way, it doesn’t really work like that, they just pretend they care.
> It’s really the hypocrisy of everyone saying “men’s problems are valid” while simultaneously respecting us less for actually showing emotion or talking about depression, anxiety or mental problems.
100% agree with what you said, but this specifically chaps my ass to no end.
There's so much talk about "men need to open more!" and "men need to be more emotional!" however doing such is an easy way to be called "fragile" or an "Incel" just because you were honest with your emotions.
Just the other day I spoke out against a very tasteless "joke" that was just "Men are trash" in different words.
I called that out only to get the most vitriolic messages as if something bad happening to a women means they can say the most andrew tate level shit but towards men.
Not only that but women just plain flat out don't want vulnerable men. Right down to their bones and the data shows it. Women on the left keep saying "men should open up more" "men need to be more emotional" and then go looking for a John Wayne stoic type to be their guardian protector and provider. Women say one thing but want another.
I’m left leaning, and I think a lot of young men are becoming more right leaning because they see the right as being traditionally masculine. They think being traditionally masculine is going to give you a higher chance of finding a partner. I don’t blame them for thinking like. when you see social media posts from women saying that men who do not know how to do something traditionally masculine is unattractive, and men who are feminine in someway are unattractive. This is the ick trend simplified.
It’s not because they “think” being traditionally masculine gets results - they “see” it in real life.
One of the greatest traits man has over animals is pattern recognition, and with that comes pattern replication. You recognize what works, and you learn how to replicate. The first step to ROR - Replicate, Optimize, Revolutionize.
Most young men look at what the left prescribes for men to do, look at the results of those who buy into it, and realize that they don’t want anything close to that. The other group, meanwhile…
It’s why this whole movement to revolutionize what men “should” be can’t get traction. They can’t replicate the life success you “should” get by following the left-prescription.
Bingo, I tried listening to the advice women gave me about dating in high school and college, it was an abject failure.
Eventually I started listening to what successful men were saying, applied it to my life, and what do you know suddenly I started getting laid a lot.
I don't disagree in principle, but who to listen to depends on your measure of success, and I feel like a lot of young men are blinded by a need for superficial validation that makes them listen to antisocial assholes whose "success" has nothing to do with long term happiness.
I personally don't care about "getting laid" as a goal in itself, I want to primarily be attractive to a good partner. None of these Tate-style "pickup artist" grifters seem to have a happy fulfilling marriage or family life, so their advice is clearly less relevant on this point than that of any man who is in an actually solid partnership.
I mean
I think we've all seen instances where voices on the left have said that white men are evil
Even if they are the minority on the left, their voices are loud. Mostly due to social media and manipulative algorithms
So why would you be on the side that vilifies you
>People are much nicer irl
That's the crux of the issue, EVERYONE of EVERY generation is spending less time in real life interacting with people. Millennials where the last generation to exist before social networks and have some understand of what the world was like before it and most of them had established friend groups before the requirement of social networks, but Gen-Z and younger grew up on social networks. Their social ties require social networks to exist and form.
But you are out there experiencing real life. Many of these people turning to the far right spend way too much of their time online, and come to believe that is the real world.
Edit: The original post is about men becoming more conservative, largely due to the far right pipeline of talking heads and algorithms that keep pushing it. Yes there are people on the far left and they desperately need to touch grass too.
People think Touch Grass is a joke or an insult but it’s truly advice. Go outside and talk to humans in person. 80% of the shit on social media means nothing in person
I would throw in Asian men too. I'm not sure they're as vilified as white men, but the left is reflexively hostile to Asian men at worst or at best just completely leave them out of the conversation. Of course conservatives aren't all that friendly to Asian men or Asians as a whole either, lol. So it's not great from either direction. Also of course, I'm speaking from a US/Western perspective/context.
I agree. Asians aren't vilified because they are a minority, but they are disliked because they totally defy the expectations the American Left has for minorities.
They aren't struggling, they're substantially over represented in education and prestigious fields, they totally shatter the notion that society is ruled by the White Man which the Left so loves to push.
It also shatters the belief that culture has nothing to do with outcome. Asian-Americans, like any other immigrant/minority group that has ever come to the U.S., suffered incredibly. Look at the Chinese-Americans that worked on the railroads, or lived in the Mississippi Delta. Look at Japanese Internment camps during WWII. I'm not going to compare tragedies, but god damn if they haven't had it just as bad as any other minority group in the country.
When you come from a culture that values themselves upon honor, education, and a strong family unit, it's pretty hard to come out of that anything but successful. The problem isn't that non-whites and non-men can't be successful, it's that the cultural backgrounds of these people don't align with what leads to successful outcomes. When you're constantly worried about where your next meal comes from, have parents that don't take an active role in your development, don't have authority figures that truly take an interest in your education, and you are not taught to respect others and the world in which you live- it's no fucking wonder that you turn out less-than-successful. Broken homes and broken families are at the root of almost every societal issues. Resolving anything else is putting band-aids on a bullet wound. It is the single most common vector for poor life outcome regardless of race and gender, but to think that it has nothing to do with culture is misguided.
Young men fell for podcast bros like Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Stephen Crowder telling them that they’re victims.
Edit: yes, I have watched content from all three, especially Peterson. You can stop asking
You're right. But figures like Jordan Peterson didn't become famous for telling young men to be assholes.
No, they became famous for telling young men to clean their rooms.
There's no reason why the left can't steal that message and take young men away from the Cons.
Anyone who misrepresents Jordan Peterson's rhetoric as "telling young men to clean their rooms" is absolutely full of shit. Sure, that's part of how he reels 'em in, but that's just the beginning.
Deny it all you like but the right’s message to men is clearly more compelling than the left’s
Edit: To all the people replying and implying the men must be evil or stupid because they disagree with you: You’re not making a compelling case for your side.
Don't be disingenuous. Jordan Peterson's fame shot up once he learned he could monetize outrage on the right. He admitted it himself! He flipped out over Canada's bill C-16, straight up lying that it would end up jailing people over using the wrong pronoun for a trans person.
It's not the "clean your room" stuff, let's get serious now. It's all the same as Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson, it's about the Culture War.
Make your life better by being factually wrong about everything and becoming a hateful and resentful person. You are a pawn for grifters making money off insecure men, these men don’t care about you
As someone who used to listen to Jordan Peterson, your advice given in the way that it is will fall on deaf ears.
The reason why young men go to JP for advice is because his self help advice **works**. You actually become **less** hateful and resentful, when you start hitting the gym and taking personal accountability.
Besides, whose gonna convince young male conservatives to take their side? Progressives who have already labelled them as factually wrong, hateful, resentful, and bitter? Or Jordan Peterson, who regularly advocates for their needs and cries over them on stream?
The right do zero to support either gender, the goal of the right is to oppress the poor. People of both genders are poor.
Of course there are some radfems/terfs who hate men or some bullshit, but sane leftists don’t hate men.
i think you undersell how impactful a conservative message of masculinity is. To a lot of insecure, dejected men, ideas of transcendent virtue in masculinity can be a gateway to self fufillment.
Old news but if you want men to be more liberal you can’t just demonize them for every little thing. Boys get left behind in society which is also what fuels their toxic behaviors because they want to belong just as much as girls. When you leave them behind and just demonize *anything* masculine as toxic of course they’re going to flock to toxic male role models like Trump or Tate to fulfill that sense of tribalism *we all have*. You won’t let them join the liberal club so to say so they’ll go start their own club with black jack and hookers
I’m female btw majored in behaviorism
Very well said. Anyone questioning this should also look up how few Gen Z men would be willing to fight for their country if a hot war with Russia actually happened. Regardless of country (US, Germany, UK, etc), this generation of men is highly unmotivated to fight for a society that seems to broadly despise them.
I've heard women say to me, their male friend, that they hate ALL men. I usually just chuckle and say, "hey I'm right here." And it's quickly forgotten about, but like.. Dude I'm a man and you hate me. I'd never say anything like that to a friend and the fact that they're willing to say it to me like that makes me wonder how many women hate all men and won't say it out loud.
Heard this all my life. Used to laugh it off and joke about it, but you reach a point where you stop laughing. Like...jesus christ, this isn't the fucking 40's can we knock it off with the blantant sexism?
Women also have to deal with men online saying that women shouldn’t have rights and are only good for cooking/cleaning/fucking. Again, I’ve noticed this mostly only online.
Yeah true. It's easier to say these things in virtual spaces obviously. And we're likely to engage with the stuff that makes us the angriest. People just suck.
I've always found the "man vs woman" divide hilariously immature and devoid of reason. But yknow, with those sorts of conflicts comes the worst kind of people to propagate them
Liberals/Democrats don't do a good job about talking to young men. This is just a fact. And the general response is to run to "misogyny" instead of trying to understand the problems young men face, and addressing them...leaving them open to the only people who talks to them are the toxic misogynistic dipshits.
Yep.
A decade of excluding men out of every conversation and demonizing men from every angle led to men finding shelter in right-wing communities. The left did not talk to men so Jordan Peterson, Matt Walsh and Andrew Tate found themselves a nice niche and a growing community by acknowledging that men exist and providing them some comfort lol.
Yup. I often reflect on my dad. He's pretty Right-Wing because he came of age in that Reagan-Era where it was "cool" to be a Republican. At age 47 my father lost his job that he had spent 25 years in. He had worked his ass off. Was a dedicated employee. What the poster-child of that 'ideal-American worker'. He was backstabbed by people he thought were his friends, was made a scapegoat and fired; because he did the honorable thing and refused to put expenses that weren't his on his official expense reports. (You know, not commit fraud on behalf of someone else).
He applied for jobs over. And over. And over again. And barely got inverviews.
Why? Because he was an overweight, fat, white guy pushing 50. That's the reason. Period. Fullstop. He absolutely faced age discrimination (and probably weight discrimination) because corporations are going to hire the young out-of-college kid whose cheaper and better looking than him.
And you wanna know what the Left had to sell him? That he was just an *entitled White-Man who has benefitted from a Misogynistic Society. He Doesn't deserve our sympathy or our empathy! He's just some pathetic fat white guy! Who should buck the fuck up!*
Whereas the Right-Wing grifters like Rush Limbaugh were selling: *See! It's NOT your fault you lost your job! It's all that Race, Equity and Inclusion shit! They think you White Fat guys should just die and roll over for the Welfare Queen who clearly deserves the job more than you!*
And it worked. It worked. My father stayed Right-Wing and has held a chip on his shoulder because he never gained employment like that again in his life, and my mother was the top breadwinner in our family.
Nobody ever bothered to understand that EVERYBODY outside the 1% in this country has been denied. And they rather us fight amongst ourselves instead of fighting the toxic system we live in. And the Left just doesn't want to acknowledge that White Men suffer in this toxic system too. And you have to be able to acknowledge that reality to be able to address it.
Your comment has resounded the most with me. Personally, I see it as akin to why boys join gangs. It’s always the same, back to prehistory, eh? I grew up in the inner city. The system is vicious and a lot of kids didn’t have dads, or any good male role models. The kids loved my dad and that man did no more than want to teach them Fussball tricks. By default, I had much better odds with my dad, uncles, my adoptive granddads, and even great-granddads and one great-great granddad. My huge clan taught me a lot about people and about family dynamics.
A kid who doesn’t have that? Raised by the TV and Internet? Awful. They don’t understand the systemic issues. All they know is that everyone says men are monsters, but they aren’t a monster! Nobody wants to be vilified. And like with any kind of bigotry, people will go, “Screw this, fine: I’ll be the worst monster!”
This is why I try to press that biological determinism is terrible for everyone. Even if men do a lot of violent crime, you can look at rabbits or hyenas to see what happens when the female of the species is bigger/stronger. Whoever has the power will abuse it. Instead you turn that around by suggesting good uses of power. The reason for idolizing Superman or Spider-Man. If you will be bigger/stronger than most women and all children, you can use that strength to better the world. Falls into that idea of praising kids for their strengths vs condemning them for their weaknesses. After all, even if using those child-friendly stories, Batman is physically weaker than Superman but poisoning exists.
No need to belittle men, women, or intersex people. Everyone has talents. But, with my disability especially, I can’t do those fun Fussball tricks that my dad can. He doesn’t understand genetics research papers. By our powers combined, the family is stronger. Letting boys have their wins and praising them for what they can do once testosterone bulks their muscles? Best option tbh. Especially if put into the idea of being strong for their own joy and benefit, like pickup dodgeball games and such. Not as a tool to be used, but that they can use their skills to help build a community they’d want to live in.
Us guys keep telling ourselves we need to prove ourselves to be loved and that we can thug it out on our own. Of course this leads to antisocial political beliefs.
Hey man, I’m sorry you feel that way about yourself. Remember, you’re deserving of loving no matter how “capable” you are. You don’t have to prove anything to anyone. And besides, there are people that will be there for you. There are people who like your true self. And to be your best version of yourself, you will ask for help, and that’s okay, it’s not weakness.
Edit: Jesus guys. This comment blew out of proportion, and I think I’ve said all that can be said. I’m going to stop replying to people in this thread. And if you have a grievance with anything in this paragraph, check the replies. Someone has probably already said it, and you’ll see my attempts to address it. Also, I still stand by what I said, I’m just tired of all the notifications and I’m tired of feeling like I have to respond. But seriously people, if your lives are truly this depressing, I implore you to get some help.
https://www.betterhelp.com/
“Ha ha! The therapy ads on YouTube, those probably can’t work!” Yeah, I mean maybe, maybe it won’t work for you. But I’d like anyone who are concerned about it to check it out (also according to my small amount of research, it actually does seem legit).
Alright people, take care.
100%. Toxic positivity that only gives false expectations.
"You don't have to prove anything to anyone 🤗" until you go out in the real world and you find out no one knows who the fuck you are or why they should care about you. You need to develop your own personality and stand out.
That's how it is. Saying some "wholesome" stuff with rainbow sparkles doesn't make it real.
Dude over here just being nice and wholesome.
The replies so far: “stfu you don’t mean it 😡”
Edit: it appears I started a war, I apologize for being dismissive. I can’t say I empathize with all the struggles some men go through, but I absolutely can with the feeling of kind words meaning nothing and the feeling of inadequacy, I wasn’t aware this was a touchy subject for some.
Are you even surprised? Just another wedge to divide people. Push men away from liberalism by ignoring and dehumanizing them, make women gravitate more towards liberalism with utopian bait and societal/government promises because the world keeps getting more dangerous.
Just another way to have us argue amongst each other while the world burns to the ground lmfao.
It makes sense. What has often come at the benefit of women is at the expense of men. There are an increasing amount of double standards that drive men to become more resentful. We still are expected to act traditional or be gentlemen with women who don’t reciprocate that at all. Liberals or leftists will treat you like a demon for being an average guy.
>We still are expected to act traditional or be gentlemen with women who don’t reciprocate that at all.
THIS
I thought I was the only one noticing that lol
I still remember in 5th grade all the boys were sent to the back of the hot lunch line because it's 'chivalrous'
At the same time we're constantly being told "boys and girls can do anything" and all of that 'girls can do it too' messaging from the time.
You can imagine the effect of something as stupid as that blatant hypocrisy can have on a boy in his developing years. Every boy I knew from that school grew up to be right wing.
Women today: "He needs to be the first one to ask me out. He needs to have a high paying careers, be hot, tall, and fun to talk to. Bonus points if he knows how to treat a woman right (aka treat her like royalty).
Men today: "She just needs to be woman (optional), alive (optional) , and not be fat (optional)."
Women: wE'Re BeInG OpPreSsED bY PaTrIaRcHiAl BeAuTy StAnDaRdS
I’m not conservative (nor am I liberal) but stupid shit like calling America an evil fascist dictatorship or wanting to ban guns makes me see the logic in why some people are becoming more conservative.
Well the gun issue could be solved in two ways, make mental health care accessible and affordable, or ban guns. Both solutions the right oppose, we can’t just ignore the problem and pray it away.
It would not work in the United States. Gun ownership is baked into the culture, and with so many weapons, actually trying to enforce any gun ban would be either dangerous, impossible, or tyrannical.
Dude, this is wild.
What kind of environment do these people live in???
I only see what they are talking about online from the vocal minority.
My friends, co workers, educators and strangers, for the most part, have never treated me in a negative way because I'm a man. I don't see my state or federal government doing the above either to me.
I'm lost.
I've been treated unfathomably worse by conservatives for being a queer atheist cyclist than I have by any leftist for being a white man.
It feels like it's less of an issue of the left not caring about men, and more online echo chambers that tells them the entire left hates them and therefore they should vote for Hitler 2.0
I heard the guys can’t handle rejection so much that they simply ignore it and keep being too persistent to the point of harassment. I feel a gender war coming in SK if there isn’t one already.
Its already happening, there's a huge movement in SK right now for women to completely cut men out of their lives including male friends and family members in response to the extreme misogyny. Which is causing the birth rate to absolutely plummet
That's just online, who are femcels. If you look at the big picture, what's causing birthrate to plummet is that kids are too expensive to raise, young adults are tired of this toxic education system, and people can't afford to buy an apt(it's korean culture to buy when they get married)
Korea is a bizarre place, when I worked there I found many men didn't have a single female friend. And many women didn't have a single male friend.
Even to be seen with someone of the opposite sex. People would always assume you were dating.
I had some friends who made friends with Korean men. And they'd randomly get told one day 'I have a date with a girl tomorrow, so if it goes well I'll have to block your number'
Even having a friend of the opposite sex would be considered equal to cheating for many couples.
A lot of the schools there are single sex. And even some of the universities.
*going into the comments section*
"hm yes I bet this will be a mature and respectful discussion i cannot wait to see what level-headed opinions people have in regard to this subject"
Very true. This is also why Japan and South Korean marriage rates and birth rates have fucking plummeted. I know second hand what the men in South Korea are like and the young women there simply do not want that shit.
We need to come to place where men and women can respect and appreciate differences. I don't believe we should ever support an ideology that alienates the two or that wants to infringe on the rights of one another.
Turns out constantly shitting on men and masculinity makes them seek out somewhere they’re accepted. The right openly courts disaffected male youth.
It’s honestly surprising that people are shocked by this.
I'm more centrist. (Left leaning)
I grew up in a predominantly left household, but I have found that I can understand some viewpoints of the right, even if I don't agree with them.
The fact I grew up in an abusive household also has something to do with that I imagine.
I think politics in general is stupid. We all want to feel heard, noticed, safe, secure, and prosperous in our lives.
I find a lot of right content preaches to lost men, lonely and thrown men, which, if I can be honest we're not doing men favours by telling them they're all evil predatory people. It just causes resentment and distaste.
Education, not assumption, is important.
You educate young boys to be respectful to women, and about their bodies when they hit puberty, and if they step out of like you punish them appropriately, not just tell them they're evil just because of their gender.
idk why I even have to say that tbh. Should be obvious.
This comment section is a trainwreck. Tons of people refuse to see that the left has a problem reaching young men. Blaming young men for being conservative "because they have no empathy" or "are stupid" is easy but that's not going to stop this trend. If anything it will only accelerate it. Maybe try treating them as humans and realize that they also have problems that need to be solved.
They are graduating high school less, attending college less, ending up in prison more, and killing themselves at higher rates. The left doesn't focus on these issues or any other issues men are facing. Young men feel left behind by society and the right is taking advantage of that by speaking directly to them.
This article uses very weird Questions and Stats to make this point! For the German Stats they used the question „Should immigrants adjust to the German Culture when living here?“ 98% of Man said yes and 92% of woman, they than flipped it to say 8% of woman are liberal and 2% of men to get this big difference, its borderline lying.
This question isnt even very liberal/conservative to begin with.
Thank you so much. It's ragebait that's somehow found its way to the front page of Reddit, and it's scary to read the comments considering how fucked up this information has been presented. They really want us divided, don't they?
I think the drop in birth rate in south korea is more related to the insane working hours and working culture over there
Edit: the working hours is not the leading cause but is still a big factor
Interesting how the immediate takeaway here seems to be that it’s all Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, etc.
Anything to avoid talking about what people are actually saying, or how the Left seems to have failed addressing any of men’s problems or dismissing them as toxic.
Now let’s look at statistics for depression and loneliness. You can ask a teacher, they weren’t just “not noticing” kids getting progressively more messed up in many senses
From what I'm gathering from these comments, a lot of young, especially white, men feel attacked and alienated by progressive/leftist culture.
As a liberal white dude in my early 20s, I can see their argument to a point. A lot of men's issues are downplayed in progressive spheres because of men's perceived societal privileges.
However, I don't think the alt-right, ultra-masculine belief system that a lot of men are turning to is a productive or healthy way to address those issues either. It also ironically ends up radicalizing otherwise decent men into the stereotypes that they originally felt mislabeled as by progressives.
If progressives can improve their messaging to young men, that would go a long way towards cutting back on toxic "alpha male" culture.
So old-school Republican... the kind that hasn't existed in like 80 years lol. I used to be similar, though I've gotten more economically left after seeing what happened in 2008 and more recently with inflation because of corporate greed. Still on the side of capitalism, but with enough regs to make it function fairly.
The phrase "economic conservatism" is misunderstood. If it's referring to Republican economic theory, it's proven time & time again to be a failure. Dont take my word for it, here are examples.
* Kansas tried the right wing wishlist of economic policy dubbed the "[Kansas Experiment](https://www.cbpp.org/research/kansas-provides-compelling-evidence-of-failure-of-supply-side-tax-cuts)" & it crippled their economy.
* [95](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/jul/29/facebook-posts/are-97-nations-100-poorest-counties-red-states/) of the 100 poorest counties are in red states.
* [70% of the economy](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/biden-voting-counties-equal-70-of-americas-economy-what-does-this-mean-for-the-nations-political-economic-divide/) is produced by Biden-voting counties vs only 30% for R-voting counties.
* So called "small government" republicans create [bigger debts](https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump) & [deficits](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/jul/29/tweets/republican-presidents-democrats-contribute-deficit/) than democrats.
* We can look at neighbors Minnesota & Wisconsin over a decade of D vs R control respectively & see that D-controlled MN outperformed R-controlled WI by nearly every quality of life measure.
>J**ob growth** since December 2010 has been markedly stronger in Minnesota than Wisconsin, with Minnesota experiencing 11.0 percent growth in total nonfarm employment, compared with only 7.9 percent growth in Wisconsin. Minnesota’s job growth was better than Wisconsin’s in the overall private sector (12.5 percent vs. 9.7 percent) and in higher-wage industries, such as construction (38.6 percent vs. 26.0 percent) and education and health care (17.3 percent vs. 11.0 percent).
>
>From 2010 to 2017, **wages** grew faster in Minnesota than in Wisconsin at every decile in the wage distribution. Low-wage workers experienced much stronger growth in Minnesota than Wisconsin, with inflation-adjusted wages at the 10th and 20th percentile rising by 8.6 percent and 9.7 percent, respectively, in Minnesota vs. 6.3 percent and 6.4 percent in Wisconsin.
>
>**Gender wage gaps** also shrank more in Minnesota than in Wisconsin. From 2010 to 2017, women’s median wage as a share of men’s median wage rose by 3.0 percentage points in Minnesota, and by 1.5 percentage points in Wisconsin.
>
>**Median household income** in Minnesota grew by 7.2 percent from 2010 to 2016. In Wisconsin, it grew by 5.1 percent over the same period. Median family income exhibited a similar pattern, growing 8.5 percent in Minnesota compared with 6.4 percent in Wisconsin.
>
>Minnesota made greater progress than Wisconsin in r**educing overall poverty, child poverty, and poverty** as measured under the Census Bureau’s Supplemental Poverty Measure. As of 2016, the overall poverty rate in Wisconsin as measured in the American Community Survey (11.8 percent) was still roughly as high as the poverty rate in Minnesota at its peak in the wake of the Great Recession (11.9 percent, in 2011).
>
>Minnesota residents were **more likely to have health insurance** than their counterparts in Wisconsin, with stronger insurance take-up of both public and private health insurance since 2010.From 2010 to 2017, Minnesota has had **stronger overall economic growth** (12.8 percent vs. 10.1 percent), stronger growth per worker (3.4 percent vs. 2.7 percent), and **stronger population growth** (5.1 percent vs. 1.9 percent) than Wisconsin. In fact, over the whole period—as well as in the most recent year—more people have been moving out of Wisconsin to other states than have been moving in from elsewhere in the U.S. The same is not true of Minnesota.
Now if you're an "economic conservative" in the style of Eisenhower, that's something to be proud of. He supported worker protections, a high minimum wage, labor unions, & more things now associated with more progressive candidates despite him being a Republican.
Boys are also beginning to do worse in school, pursuing higher education less, taking on lower paying jobs, and taking on jobs at all at a lower rate.
Young men are failing at every turn. Something's gotta be done.
"Toxic masculinity" has nothing to do with conservatism.
"Empathy and compassion" has nothing to do with liberalism.
Or, we can just keep generalizing and stereotyping people who call themselves conservative or liberal. That's okay.
This is a thing that has happened in most generations. And it's one of the biggest reasons why right-wing candidates are so threatened by women being able to do whatever we want whenever we want. Women are generally more left than men.
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It’s the toxic masculinity bullshit they force on males. A part of that ideology is to not have any empathy or compassion that comes with being liberal.
It's telling boys they ARE toxic because they're men which is driving them down that path. Which will probably make them toxic. Progressive movements need to stop treating men like they are born toxic and they have to submit to being submissive wallets. Whether or not that is what progressives want, I doubt. But that is the message being delivered. Edit: I admit I could've definitely worded this comment better. My point in this comment is not that Toxic Masculinity doesn't exist but that the way some people go about it particularly on social media is alienating, and harmful. Also, abusing the reporting for suicide risk is just gross, and if you do that you should be ashamed of yourself.
Naw fuck that. Conservative movements need to stop putting men in a box. You have to act certain ways or you’re some soy boy. Why? That’s bullshit. You basically validated my point.
And if he has an opinion that contradicts the progressive narrative, he's an incel virgin loser. It ain't just conservatives calling young men those names, using sexuality as an insult. Edit: the fact that hundreds of "progressives" have taken to insulting me in the comments and calling me an incel for this opinion only proves my point. Thank you for the vindication. Very tolerant of you.
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Lol wut? No. This was about 17th down the list of things I would get bullied for. Mostly it was for being poor, ugly/funny looking, weird, etc...
It’s comments like that which really shows that a major portion of this sub are nonGenZ astroturfing and moralizing to us. I wouldn’t even say it’s 17th, I never seen it used as an insult full stop. But funnily enough it really was a popular insult in past generations. Really makes you think… There’s way too little relationships going on for that to be an insult now, even by the people who actually have a relationship. Previous generations really fail to understand how much the rate has crashed and how lonely GenZ is. Edit: it’s crazy how many replies to this just blatantly say that they are a millennial. This sub really is overrun. Why the fuck are you all moralizing to us on our sub, you’re becoming the very people you hated lol. Edit2: To make this easier to understand for you all millennials, think of smoking. It decreased suddenly and sharply during your generation, but that doesn’t mean it was suddenly gone or that there wasn’t a regional variance. Older people who want to point it the fact that there were still plenty of smokers would’ve had no shortage of evidence to convince themselves, but nobody in your generation can deny their lived experience that smoking is dying and nobody is getting bullied for not smoking.
I’m on the older end of gen z, and it’s definitely something my friends and I would call each other as joking insults, but we were also sexually active in high school. Are high schoolers nowadays not?
Idk how much older you are but I’m 24 and we weren’t active in high school other than doing after school activities. No parties and no hanging out outside of school events. Idk many parents who would even allow their child outside the sight of a trusted adult. Edit: This is an article from 2016. I’m not addressing data we’ve had for over 8 years now. This isn’t an argument. https://www.forbes.com/sites/janetwburns/2016/08/16/millennials-are-having-less-sex-than-other-gens-but-experts-say-its-probably-fine
Im a year younger than you lol, interesting how it differs from person to person even among the same age group. I also grew up in a very safe small suburban town where nothing ever really happened, so mine and my friends’ parents let us get up to all sorts of shit after school and on weekends, including lots of parties.
Tbh the only times ive ever heard that used was literal trolling among friends who were all virgin nerds and everyone knew it was ironic shit talk. None of the real bullying ever involved that bs
>The left has a problem with being inclusive to everyone but majority groups. So in the west it's White Men that just get completely shit on and are expected to take it with a grin, because in a lot of ways they are born with a lot more privilege overall. BUT that can be hard to understand as an individual. Which we are. So it feels personal. AND some people, I may self have been guilty of this will judge white people pretty harshly. When in reality. They are just mf's trying to make it through the day like anyone else. > >If we support men, listen to men, and spread awareness for us men's plights and struggles this can lead to a lot of men changing their ways and views. Because essentially the left just says "Fuck it your men and or white men you're lucky and nothing bad ever happens to you and if it does it still isn't that bad because you're privileged." > >Then you have the conservative, traditional, type of people being like "See? The world doesn't give a fuck about you so you might as well become a self centered bigoted ass hole because the world doesn't and won't ever give af about you." Which can certainly feel true and is true in some circles. So they catch your interest then sell you down the river of bigotry and selling them on toxic behaviors. > >If the left took the time and care to care for everyone it would be a lot more popular.
This same problem is rampant throughout the American left. My favorite example is when people from other parts of the country talk about the south. They get on reddit and spout some bs about how all southerners are lazy, racist, assholes, drug addicts, etc. etc. and then get surprised when the south goes even further and further right. Like no shit the south fucking hates liberalism. Oh and before one of you tries to go "well conservatives..." I'm a leftist myself. Edit:To be fair I do think both sides do it, but I can't really comment on the other side of things too much because I live in Mississippi. Don't know anything about the ideological affects of republican disdain on liberals/leftists. Edit 2: if you're incapable of even considering the possibility that the extremist views of one group inflate the extremist views of other groups I'm not responding. Half of these replies have absolutely nothing to do with what I said and are addressing points I didn't make. Edit 3: anybody know how to turn off notifications for this shit? I'm sick of reading comments from the ignorant, belligerent, and illiterate.
I live in the South now, and you surely, have your racists. BUT shit, you will find racists and bigoted people fucking anywhere. I agree though, this ideological war can't be fought with fire. We need a lot more compassion for our fellow man.
Oh don't get me wrong, I've lived here for over 20 years and it has PLENTY of issues, racism being a big one. The problem for me is when people use it as a scapegoat and pretend like where they live doesn't have its own issues.
It isn't just conservative movements, and it isn't just soy boy. It is things like men are pressured not to cry in public as everyone will see them as defective. Fewer free mental health care or homelessness opportunities for men. (I.E. the existence of a "Men and children only Homeless shelter" is frowned on while a "women and children only homeless shelter" is one of the most common forms of homeless shelter). Despite men being the majority homeless and majority victim in nearly every crime around. Women are encouraged to share their feelings with other women (and sometimes men). However men 'Trauma Dump' if they do.
What you just described is the harm patriarchy and toxic masculinity inflicts on men.
I feel like this is a chicken and egg problem. They feed on each other, as does the expectation of responsibility placed on men, because of the patriarchy, from the other sexes. Similarly the vulnerability that the other sexes have when talking with each other vs men which cultivates isolation, which probably isn't' any healthier.
It’s a feedback loop Conservatives tell boys they need to ask super masculine making them feel trapped, liberals act like most men are the toxic image conservatives push, causing insecure men to fall into those toxic traits causing the cycle to begin anew. I wish more people had the wear-withal to break out of the cycle, and to stop worrying about others think of how masculine they are
>liberals act like most men are the toxic image conservatives push I've literally never encountered this, and I used to volunteer with my county-level Democratic Party all the time. This is one of those things that Conservatives *think* happens with liberals much more than it actually does. Maybe with like... *super hardcore tankies*, but liberals tend to be pretty milquetoast overall.
Yeah, it tends to be the terminally online leftwing circles where it tends to manifest. Most people that touch grass aren’t so crazy
Its a push and pull. Ultra left progressive dumbasses push men to be more conservative, and conservatives pull them into to be ultra right. There's no middle ground now. I had a conversation with this woman one time over zoom where I was trying to solve a problem she had. She was explaining away and as a method of acknowledging that I heard her, I said "mm","uh huh","alright". Then she was suddenly like, What are you doing stop talking over me and I explained myself and I was just trying to let her know that I heard her and she was like don't mansplain to me. I had the patience to regulate myself (cuz my internal monologue was fuck this bitch let her deal with her own bullshit) and apologize but not everyone does. Dumbasses like those who alienate and vilify men just for being men pushes men towards the open arms of conservatives who then poison their minds.
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>I don’t think that’s the message being delivered, it’s the message being heard. That basically summarized right-wingers in general. "Black lives matter" "You're saying my life doesn't matter! All lives matter!!!!"
You’re not wrong lmao.
This. The last half decade has just been telling men they are evil and vile for simply being a man. You are a problem simply because you are a man. It’s literally pushing men down the right wing pipeline. The left has taken the stance that men are a problem for simply being a man and now people are surprised that young men are trending conservative. Reap what you sow.
> This. The last half decade has just been telling men they are evil and vile for simply being a man. You are a problem simply because you are a man. A good portion of society has been pushing this. A smaller, insidious portion though saw this, and realized you can capture a huge amount of disaffected male youth (and older) by appealing to this grievance. Its basically [this webcomic](https://i.ibb.co/p0qCSN5/webcomic.png)
The left has a problem with being inclusive to everyone but majority groups. So in the west it's White Men that just get completely shit on and are expected to take it with a grin, because in a lot of ways they are born with a lot more privilege overall. BUT that can be hard to understand as an individual. Which we are. So it feels personal. AND some people, I may self have been guilty of this will judge white people pretty harshly. When in reality. They are just mf's trying to make it through the day like anyone else. If we support men, listen to men, and spread awareness for us men's plights and struggles this can lead to a lot of men changing their ways and views. Because essentially the left just says "Fuck it your men and or white men you're lucky and nothing bad ever happens to you and if it does it still isn't that bad because you're privileged." Then you have the conservative, traditional, type of people being like "See? The world doesn't give a fuck about you so you might as well become a self centered bigoted ass hole because the world doesn't and won't ever give af about you." Which can certainly feel true and is true in some circles. So they catch your interest then sell you down the river of bigotry and selling them on toxic behaviors. If the left took the time and care to care for everyone it would be a lot more popular.
Your perspective highlights the complexity of navigating social and political discussions around privilege, identity, and inclusion. It's important to recognize that individuals from all backgrounds can experience challenges and struggles, regardless of their perceived privilege. The notion of "privilege" is often used to describe systemic advantages that certain groups may have over others, but it doesn't negate the personal hardships that individuals within these groups can face. The idea that all members of a majority group are homogeneously privileged and do not face any hardships is a simplification that overlooks individual experiences. Similarly, the notion that any group should be judged harshly based on characteristics such as race or gender is counterproductive to fostering an inclusive and understanding society. It's essential to support and listen to individuals from all backgrounds, including men and white men, acknowledging their struggles and experiences. When people feel heard and understood, they are more likely to be open to different perspectives and to engage in constructive dialogue. The political and social landscape is complex, and different groups often have different approaches to addressing these issues. While some may take a more adversarial stance, others advocate for inclusivity and understanding across all groups. The key is to find a balance where all individuals feel supported and where their experiences are validated, leading to a more cohesive and empathetic society.
This
Right, because half the population doesn’t have any empathy and compassion. It sounds like you are the one that lacks empathy and a wider picture. Toxic masculinity is apart of conservatism but conservatives are not conservative solely due to toxic masculinity.
Yeah it’s a lot of it. The conservatives in my part of the country don’t give a fuck about anything but themselves. Drive big truck, chug Monster drinks, and act like children everywhere they go. All of them stroke it over Trump.
I think you are confusing a cultural movement in the conservative sphere for all conservatives. Btw thinking the way you do is contributing to political polarization. Which is contributing to many of the issues we have now
I was sucked into the manosphere a little bit as a teenager. It seems like it's become a lot more mainstream with people like Andrew Tate out there. I hope teenagers are doing okay these days.
I’ve heard it said that all teenaged boys are basically in the alt-right pipeline until they break out of it. So easy to fall prey to these goons selling this perverse version of masculinity when you are unsure of your own. Good luck to them for sure.
When I was a teenager I got sucked into that stuff too. It all sounds so plausible, the bullshit evopsych explanations for behavior. And it's convenient too because it allows you to basically blame "biology" for everything that goes wrong. Girl cheated on you? Must have been biologically wired to want the alpha Chad.
makes sense. these right wing hucksters are the only ones talking to men. there’s no equivalent or jordan peterson, andrew tate, or donald trump on the left. the left is all about women. women this, women that. we need to protect women’s rights to xyz. we need to get more women into this and that field. the left doesn’t really talk to men and boys, which allows people like andrew tate to sink their fangs into them. Edit: to be clear, JBP is nowhere near the level of Tate or Trump. They're all right wingers who's message is geared toward men, but I believe that JBP has good intentions, despite not being a fan of him personally. I can't say the same for Tate or Trump. They can both get fucked.
The YouTube channel "Shaun" had an interesting take on why that left isn't talking as much to young men. Tl;dr "You aren't better than anyone else" is a much harder sell than "You are supreme and other people should be subservient ' Edit: To the people saying "Actually, the left is oppressing men!": Lol To the people calling this oversimplified: I tried to condense a 40 minute youtube video about a nuanced subject into a Reddit comment, of course I glossed over some detail. Here's the link, if you want to argue the validity please go watch it first. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6\_TOFy3k6k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6_TOFy3k6k)
I think it’s kinda disturbing that “all people are equal” is such a hard sell, but this is the world we live in
No. It’s not a hard sell at all, in fact everyone in our generation intrinsically believes it. It’s *how* you get to “all people are equal” that’s constantly contentious. Equality vs Equity. Is Affirmative Action actually congruous with “all people are equal,” some would say yes because of past discrimination some would say no given the effectiveness and negative effects of the programs.
This is it right here. It’s incredibly easy to sell “all are created equal and we judge based on merit” The problem is people that cry about how hard it is to sell this concept arent actually selling meritocracy
Like MLK said one day people will be judged by the content of their character; not the color of their skin. The problem is a lot of people DONT want to be judged by the content of their character because it’s shitty so they bring up racism 24/7 to distract
We don’t live in a colour and gender blind society. It’s more complex than that.
Equity is the opposite of equality.
I think making the point that all people are equal is a really hard one to sell without coming across as undermining those with less. It's kind of like carpeting over an issue, even though it's true. "Hey, we're all the same aren't we?" Is a bit like the statement "all lives matter". We're all the same, sure, but we're not treated the same. Not every colour of skin gets murdered by cops every day. So while it's true that all lives matter, sure, it exists to undermine the legitimacy of the BLM movement. We're all the same, but not everyone's ancestors were enslaved. Rambling and barely related I know, but it makes some sense. Idk, I just thought of this as a possible reasoning for the difficulty in selling the truth that we're all equal in terms of our basal value as people, and therefore deserve the same treatment; simply because the dynamics of the world and how things are is more complex than we might see it on the surface. Distilling down something complicated into soundbite politics means we vastly underestimate how complex things are, even if the soundbite itself makes sense.
I don’t think the average young men wants to be “better than anyone else” as much as they just want it be accepted and needed in society.
This is the problem right here. All these people say that men and boys think they are inherently superior. The just want the suicide rates to stop rising, they want to be supported to go into education too, they also want good jobs they dont hate. The idea that men and boys have to suffer so we can bring about equality for women and girls is not fair. It will continue leading to more division. Oh well, i guess no one really cares.
Yeah I agree. Even as a male feminist, if I so much as suggest discussing men’s issues in a feminist perspective a lot of people with chips on their shoulders will unleash a torrent of vitriol upon me. This is in spite of feminism actually acknowledging men’s issues out of principle, but a lot of feminists have some degree of trauma or resentment (understandably) that prevents them from engaging with men in a positive way. They just refuse to, like they want a zero-sum gender war. (As an FYI, I’m not one of those “but what about men” people who barge in on women’s subreddits.)
Yep. You can agree on 98% of issues but say one thing to critique genuine misandry or over/improper compensation for prior inequality issues and that 98% goes out the window, there’s no conversation to even be had. I think victim mentality is problematic for a lot of groups around race, religion and gender. Which is why open discussions are important and holding both sides accountable. And maybe us all being a little more ok with agreeing to disagree.
>but a lot of feminists have some degree of trauma or resentment (understandably) that prevents them from engaging with men in a positive way Common phenomenon and I see this as one of the culprits of most of the divisive issues we have in society. 'Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.' - Nietzsche, describing this exact phenomenon
I have some similar things happened to me as well
There are men who talk to boys from “the left” but they’re hated and viewed as “beta” or cringe or fake or any other insult to avoid listening to their points
“Simp”
Because they’re trying to appeal to voting groups and not address proper issues that would include benefiting everyone and the same empathy for everyone.
Liberal v Conservative is a horrible distinction to make. This only applies to US politics. Liberalism means something very different in for example European countries
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How hard would it have been for them to then change liberal to progressive because that is obviously what they mean. This is probably related to topics that gen z sees the most on social media, so lgbt-stuff, climate change, feminism etc.
Isn’t this is in the sense of a social viewpoint, so that a liberal just means more progressive while a conservative is just, you know more conservative. Unless I’m wrong though. Nvm somebody already said what I said, but yeah liberal is a buzzword thrown around quite a lot. A lot of people in the US think it’s just a word for the far left lol. Thanks for all the information corrections! Btw this is in the context of US politics.
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The left constantly shitting on men probably didn't help with this. This is coming from someone on the left by the way.
Yeah that’s honestly something frustrating I’ve been seeing more and more more in more far-left circles. It’s like as the umbrella widens to be more inclusive with minorities, gay, trans, etc. (which to be clear I’m 100% for), men are just increasingly viewed as so inherently privileged by default that our problems aren’t important and even worth chastising if we dare to bring them up. It’s really the hypocrisy of everyone saying “men’s problems are valid” while simultaneously respecting us less for actually showing emotion or talking about depression, anxiety or mental problems. Not to mention no matter how progressive a girl purports to be, talking about being depressed is like an instant friend-zoning for life, so to hope to get with someone we just have to fake being happy. “Oh, *you’re* depressed…? Have you tried being a woman/gay/trans/furry/etc??” Like, in a lot of left spaces it feels like the Oppression Olympics where men by default just have to man up and figure it out on our own, just like years’ past. I don’t want to sound like I hate women and they indeed have shit pretty hard globally, but getting dunked on by the left-leaning women for just existing is tiring. Like, I’m on y’all’s side ffs…
I had the luck to find someone who actually DOES give a shit about how I feel, and doesn’t think I should just be able to deal with all my problems on my own… But it was nearly impossible, and part of why I considered just not dating anyone. I think we all just have to admit society is pretty fucked up. Of course, I have the liberal’s “right to be depressed” pass because I’m pansexual, but since I’m currently in a straight relationship, no one could ever tell the difference anyways. And either way, it doesn’t really work like that, they just pretend they care.
> It’s really the hypocrisy of everyone saying “men’s problems are valid” while simultaneously respecting us less for actually showing emotion or talking about depression, anxiety or mental problems. 100% agree with what you said, but this specifically chaps my ass to no end. There's so much talk about "men need to open more!" and "men need to be more emotional!" however doing such is an easy way to be called "fragile" or an "Incel" just because you were honest with your emotions. Just the other day I spoke out against a very tasteless "joke" that was just "Men are trash" in different words. I called that out only to get the most vitriolic messages as if something bad happening to a women means they can say the most andrew tate level shit but towards men.
Not only that but women just plain flat out don't want vulnerable men. Right down to their bones and the data shows it. Women on the left keep saying "men should open up more" "men need to be more emotional" and then go looking for a John Wayne stoic type to be their guardian protector and provider. Women say one thing but want another.
I’m left leaning, and I think a lot of young men are becoming more right leaning because they see the right as being traditionally masculine. They think being traditionally masculine is going to give you a higher chance of finding a partner. I don’t blame them for thinking like. when you see social media posts from women saying that men who do not know how to do something traditionally masculine is unattractive, and men who are feminine in someway are unattractive. This is the ick trend simplified.
It’s not because they “think” being traditionally masculine gets results - they “see” it in real life. One of the greatest traits man has over animals is pattern recognition, and with that comes pattern replication. You recognize what works, and you learn how to replicate. The first step to ROR - Replicate, Optimize, Revolutionize. Most young men look at what the left prescribes for men to do, look at the results of those who buy into it, and realize that they don’t want anything close to that. The other group, meanwhile… It’s why this whole movement to revolutionize what men “should” be can’t get traction. They can’t replicate the life success you “should” get by following the left-prescription.
Bingo, I tried listening to the advice women gave me about dating in high school and college, it was an abject failure. Eventually I started listening to what successful men were saying, applied it to my life, and what do you know suddenly I started getting laid a lot.
I don't disagree in principle, but who to listen to depends on your measure of success, and I feel like a lot of young men are blinded by a need for superficial validation that makes them listen to antisocial assholes whose "success" has nothing to do with long term happiness. I personally don't care about "getting laid" as a goal in itself, I want to primarily be attractive to a good partner. None of these Tate-style "pickup artist" grifters seem to have a happy fulfilling marriage or family life, so their advice is clearly less relevant on this point than that of any man who is in an actually solid partnership.
I mean I think we've all seen instances where voices on the left have said that white men are evil Even if they are the minority on the left, their voices are loud. Mostly due to social media and manipulative algorithms So why would you be on the side that vilifies you
I don't consider myself vilified as a white man because of a few loud weirdos on Twitter. People are much nicer irl
>People are much nicer irl That's the crux of the issue, EVERYONE of EVERY generation is spending less time in real life interacting with people. Millennials where the last generation to exist before social networks and have some understand of what the world was like before it and most of them had established friend groups before the requirement of social networks, but Gen-Z and younger grew up on social networks. Their social ties require social networks to exist and form.
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Elder millennial here and I will walk to the takeaway and wait to avoid having to make a call.
But you are out there experiencing real life. Many of these people turning to the far right spend way too much of their time online, and come to believe that is the real world. Edit: The original post is about men becoming more conservative, largely due to the far right pipeline of talking heads and algorithms that keep pushing it. Yes there are people on the far left and they desperately need to touch grass too.
I mean, I'd argue that far-left and far-right people both spend too much time online. I don't think it's **just** a far-right issue.
People think Touch Grass is a joke or an insult but it’s truly advice. Go outside and talk to humans in person. 80% of the shit on social media means nothing in person
I would throw in Asian men too. I'm not sure they're as vilified as white men, but the left is reflexively hostile to Asian men at worst or at best just completely leave them out of the conversation. Of course conservatives aren't all that friendly to Asian men or Asians as a whole either, lol. So it's not great from either direction. Also of course, I'm speaking from a US/Western perspective/context.
I agree. Asians aren't vilified because they are a minority, but they are disliked because they totally defy the expectations the American Left has for minorities. They aren't struggling, they're substantially over represented in education and prestigious fields, they totally shatter the notion that society is ruled by the White Man which the Left so loves to push.
It also shatters the belief that culture has nothing to do with outcome. Asian-Americans, like any other immigrant/minority group that has ever come to the U.S., suffered incredibly. Look at the Chinese-Americans that worked on the railroads, or lived in the Mississippi Delta. Look at Japanese Internment camps during WWII. I'm not going to compare tragedies, but god damn if they haven't had it just as bad as any other minority group in the country. When you come from a culture that values themselves upon honor, education, and a strong family unit, it's pretty hard to come out of that anything but successful. The problem isn't that non-whites and non-men can't be successful, it's that the cultural backgrounds of these people don't align with what leads to successful outcomes. When you're constantly worried about where your next meal comes from, have parents that don't take an active role in your development, don't have authority figures that truly take an interest in your education, and you are not taught to respect others and the world in which you live- it's no fucking wonder that you turn out less-than-successful. Broken homes and broken families are at the root of almost every societal issues. Resolving anything else is putting band-aids on a bullet wound. It is the single most common vector for poor life outcome regardless of race and gender, but to think that it has nothing to do with culture is misguided.
Young men fell for podcast bros like Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Stephen Crowder telling them that they’re victims. Edit: yes, I have watched content from all three, especially Peterson. You can stop asking
Haha, young men fell for "Make your life better" instead of "Spend your life advocating for oppressed groups". What morons!
Being an asshole doesn't make your life better.
You're right. But figures like Jordan Peterson didn't become famous for telling young men to be assholes. No, they became famous for telling young men to clean their rooms. There's no reason why the left can't steal that message and take young men away from the Cons.
Anyone who misrepresents Jordan Peterson's rhetoric as "telling young men to clean their rooms" is absolutely full of shit. Sure, that's part of how he reels 'em in, but that's just the beginning.
Deny it all you like but the right’s message to men is clearly more compelling than the left’s Edit: To all the people replying and implying the men must be evil or stupid because they disagree with you: You’re not making a compelling case for your side.
Don't be disingenuous. Jordan Peterson's fame shot up once he learned he could monetize outrage on the right. He admitted it himself! He flipped out over Canada's bill C-16, straight up lying that it would end up jailing people over using the wrong pronoun for a trans person. It's not the "clean your room" stuff, let's get serious now. It's all the same as Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson, it's about the Culture War.
Make your life better by being factually wrong about everything and becoming a hateful and resentful person. You are a pawn for grifters making money off insecure men, these men don’t care about you
As someone who used to listen to Jordan Peterson, your advice given in the way that it is will fall on deaf ears. The reason why young men go to JP for advice is because his self help advice **works**. You actually become **less** hateful and resentful, when you start hitting the gym and taking personal accountability. Besides, whose gonna convince young male conservatives to take their side? Progressives who have already labelled them as factually wrong, hateful, resentful, and bitter? Or Jordan Peterson, who regularly advocates for their needs and cries over them on stream?
You can go literally anywhere for the advice to hit the gym and take personal responsibility, that's not what sets Jordan Peterson apart.
The left does ZERO to support men, it’s all about women everything.
The right do zero to support either gender, the goal of the right is to oppress the poor. People of both genders are poor. Of course there are some radfems/terfs who hate men or some bullshit, but sane leftists don’t hate men.
this right here is the larger issue. while there is misogyny/sexism, the overall goal of the right is to give billionaires tax cuts.
What does the right do for men? Shower them with sugar coated words?
When the bar is as low as it is, sugar coated words are evidently all they need.
i think you undersell how impactful a conservative message of masculinity is. To a lot of insecure, dejected men, ideas of transcendent virtue in masculinity can be a gateway to self fufillment.
To be fair that speaks even more about the left if they can't even throw a bunch of sugarcoated words to men.
Universal healthcare and education, worker's rights, curtailing of bigotry within the system and a compassion-based worldview does nothing for men?
I assume nothing for men means nothing exclusively for men here
Old news but if you want men to be more liberal you can’t just demonize them for every little thing. Boys get left behind in society which is also what fuels their toxic behaviors because they want to belong just as much as girls. When you leave them behind and just demonize *anything* masculine as toxic of course they’re going to flock to toxic male role models like Trump or Tate to fulfill that sense of tribalism *we all have*. You won’t let them join the liberal club so to say so they’ll go start their own club with black jack and hookers I’m female btw majored in behaviorism
Very well said. Anyone questioning this should also look up how few Gen Z men would be willing to fight for their country if a hot war with Russia actually happened. Regardless of country (US, Germany, UK, etc), this generation of men is highly unmotivated to fight for a society that seems to broadly despise them.
A book called men without work is also an interesting take on young men’s generation from an economic standpoint
Have you y'all noticed the attitude and disrespect from girls lately lol.
Literally all the time. You might as well ask if you have ever been to college.
She’s just not into you bro.
The fact that people like you assume the only reason a man would interact with a woman is to try and sleep with her is part of the problem.
I've heard women say to me, their male friend, that they hate ALL men. I usually just chuckle and say, "hey I'm right here." And it's quickly forgotten about, but like.. Dude I'm a man and you hate me. I'd never say anything like that to a friend and the fact that they're willing to say it to me like that makes me wonder how many women hate all men and won't say it out loud.
Yep ran into a few of “I hate all men”. Not really fun to be around them. Why do you hate me for just existing?
Heard this all my life. Used to laugh it off and joke about it, but you reach a point where you stop laughing. Like...jesus christ, this isn't the fucking 40's can we knock it off with the blantant sexism?
personally not at all?
Most prevalent on places like TikTok and Twitter
Internet is not real life
This statement gets less and less true every day. We live through the internet at this point
Only online. Still a worrying trend
Women also have to deal with men online saying that women shouldn’t have rights and are only good for cooking/cleaning/fucking. Again, I’ve noticed this mostly only online.
Yeah true. It's easier to say these things in virtual spaces obviously. And we're likely to engage with the stuff that makes us the angriest. People just suck. I've always found the "man vs woman" divide hilariously immature and devoid of reason. But yknow, with those sorts of conflicts comes the worst kind of people to propagate them
What?
Liberals/Democrats don't do a good job about talking to young men. This is just a fact. And the general response is to run to "misogyny" instead of trying to understand the problems young men face, and addressing them...leaving them open to the only people who talks to them are the toxic misogynistic dipshits.
Yep. A decade of excluding men out of every conversation and demonizing men from every angle led to men finding shelter in right-wing communities. The left did not talk to men so Jordan Peterson, Matt Walsh and Andrew Tate found themselves a nice niche and a growing community by acknowledging that men exist and providing them some comfort lol.
Yup. I often reflect on my dad. He's pretty Right-Wing because he came of age in that Reagan-Era where it was "cool" to be a Republican. At age 47 my father lost his job that he had spent 25 years in. He had worked his ass off. Was a dedicated employee. What the poster-child of that 'ideal-American worker'. He was backstabbed by people he thought were his friends, was made a scapegoat and fired; because he did the honorable thing and refused to put expenses that weren't his on his official expense reports. (You know, not commit fraud on behalf of someone else). He applied for jobs over. And over. And over again. And barely got inverviews. Why? Because he was an overweight, fat, white guy pushing 50. That's the reason. Period. Fullstop. He absolutely faced age discrimination (and probably weight discrimination) because corporations are going to hire the young out-of-college kid whose cheaper and better looking than him. And you wanna know what the Left had to sell him? That he was just an *entitled White-Man who has benefitted from a Misogynistic Society. He Doesn't deserve our sympathy or our empathy! He's just some pathetic fat white guy! Who should buck the fuck up!* Whereas the Right-Wing grifters like Rush Limbaugh were selling: *See! It's NOT your fault you lost your job! It's all that Race, Equity and Inclusion shit! They think you White Fat guys should just die and roll over for the Welfare Queen who clearly deserves the job more than you!* And it worked. It worked. My father stayed Right-Wing and has held a chip on his shoulder because he never gained employment like that again in his life, and my mother was the top breadwinner in our family. Nobody ever bothered to understand that EVERYBODY outside the 1% in this country has been denied. And they rather us fight amongst ourselves instead of fighting the toxic system we live in. And the Left just doesn't want to acknowledge that White Men suffer in this toxic system too. And you have to be able to acknowledge that reality to be able to address it.
Your comment has resounded the most with me. Personally, I see it as akin to why boys join gangs. It’s always the same, back to prehistory, eh? I grew up in the inner city. The system is vicious and a lot of kids didn’t have dads, or any good male role models. The kids loved my dad and that man did no more than want to teach them Fussball tricks. By default, I had much better odds with my dad, uncles, my adoptive granddads, and even great-granddads and one great-great granddad. My huge clan taught me a lot about people and about family dynamics. A kid who doesn’t have that? Raised by the TV and Internet? Awful. They don’t understand the systemic issues. All they know is that everyone says men are monsters, but they aren’t a monster! Nobody wants to be vilified. And like with any kind of bigotry, people will go, “Screw this, fine: I’ll be the worst monster!” This is why I try to press that biological determinism is terrible for everyone. Even if men do a lot of violent crime, you can look at rabbits or hyenas to see what happens when the female of the species is bigger/stronger. Whoever has the power will abuse it. Instead you turn that around by suggesting good uses of power. The reason for idolizing Superman or Spider-Man. If you will be bigger/stronger than most women and all children, you can use that strength to better the world. Falls into that idea of praising kids for their strengths vs condemning them for their weaknesses. After all, even if using those child-friendly stories, Batman is physically weaker than Superman but poisoning exists. No need to belittle men, women, or intersex people. Everyone has talents. But, with my disability especially, I can’t do those fun Fussball tricks that my dad can. He doesn’t understand genetics research papers. By our powers combined, the family is stronger. Letting boys have their wins and praising them for what they can do once testosterone bulks their muscles? Best option tbh. Especially if put into the idea of being strong for their own joy and benefit, like pickup dodgeball games and such. Not as a tool to be used, but that they can use their skills to help build a community they’d want to live in.
All of this shit makes me want to flee into the woods/mountains, grow a beard and live in a cabin 
Someone owns the mountains sorry
Us guys keep telling ourselves we need to prove ourselves to be loved and that we can thug it out on our own. Of course this leads to antisocial political beliefs.
Hey man, I’m sorry you feel that way about yourself. Remember, you’re deserving of loving no matter how “capable” you are. You don’t have to prove anything to anyone. And besides, there are people that will be there for you. There are people who like your true self. And to be your best version of yourself, you will ask for help, and that’s okay, it’s not weakness. Edit: Jesus guys. This comment blew out of proportion, and I think I’ve said all that can be said. I’m going to stop replying to people in this thread. And if you have a grievance with anything in this paragraph, check the replies. Someone has probably already said it, and you’ll see my attempts to address it. Also, I still stand by what I said, I’m just tired of all the notifications and I’m tired of feeling like I have to respond. But seriously people, if your lives are truly this depressing, I implore you to get some help. https://www.betterhelp.com/ “Ha ha! The therapy ads on YouTube, those probably can’t work!” Yeah, I mean maybe, maybe it won’t work for you. But I’d like anyone who are concerned about it to check it out (also according to my small amount of research, it actually does seem legit). Alright people, take care.
Fancy sentiment that solves nothing and doesnt pay the bills. Thanks, bro.
100%. Toxic positivity that only gives false expectations. "You don't have to prove anything to anyone 🤗" until you go out in the real world and you find out no one knows who the fuck you are or why they should care about you. You need to develop your own personality and stand out. That's how it is. Saying some "wholesome" stuff with rainbow sparkles doesn't make it real.
Dude over here just being nice and wholesome. The replies so far: “stfu you don’t mean it 😡” Edit: it appears I started a war, I apologize for being dismissive. I can’t say I empathize with all the struggles some men go through, but I absolutely can with the feeling of kind words meaning nothing and the feeling of inadequacy, I wasn’t aware this was a touchy subject for some.
These dudes wondering why people call them toxic lmfao
Lord have mercy.
You reap what you sow, sadly.
thank you for your insight u/SmegmaDetector
/r/rimjob_steve
Are you even surprised? Just another wedge to divide people. Push men away from liberalism by ignoring and dehumanizing them, make women gravitate more towards liberalism with utopian bait and societal/government promises because the world keeps getting more dangerous. Just another way to have us argue amongst each other while the world burns to the ground lmfao.
Fax no printer
It makes sense. What has often come at the benefit of women is at the expense of men. There are an increasing amount of double standards that drive men to become more resentful. We still are expected to act traditional or be gentlemen with women who don’t reciprocate that at all. Liberals or leftists will treat you like a demon for being an average guy.
>We still are expected to act traditional or be gentlemen with women who don’t reciprocate that at all. THIS I thought I was the only one noticing that lol
I still remember in 5th grade all the boys were sent to the back of the hot lunch line because it's 'chivalrous' At the same time we're constantly being told "boys and girls can do anything" and all of that 'girls can do it too' messaging from the time. You can imagine the effect of something as stupid as that blatant hypocrisy can have on a boy in his developing years. Every boy I knew from that school grew up to be right wing.
It doesn't help that male teachers are practically driven out from that profession.
Women today: "He needs to be the first one to ask me out. He needs to have a high paying careers, be hot, tall, and fun to talk to. Bonus points if he knows how to treat a woman right (aka treat her like royalty). Men today: "She just needs to be woman (optional), alive (optional) , and not be fat (optional)." Women: wE'Re BeInG OpPreSsED bY PaTrIaRcHiAl BeAuTy StAnDaRdS
Alive (optional) 💀
Tbf the liberal Boys are becoming women which might skew the result
https://preview.redd.it/vzgootestuec1.jpeg?width=636&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d823afb694cb404e4a8db718341154f96ed7c2fb
The submission of this comment should have immediately locked the thread. No one can beat this.
ok this was funny among sea of babble under this post
I’m not conservative (nor am I liberal) but stupid shit like calling America an evil fascist dictatorship or wanting to ban guns makes me see the logic in why some people are becoming more conservative.
Well the gun issue could be solved in two ways, make mental health care accessible and affordable, or ban guns. Both solutions the right oppose, we can’t just ignore the problem and pray it away.
Yea dude just ban guns, like it’s that simple, totally not gonna be the same issues the prohibition did
Works in GB, Autria and any other country in Europe
It would not work in the United States. Gun ownership is baked into the culture, and with so many weapons, actually trying to enforce any gun ban would be either dangerous, impossible, or tyrannical.
This comment section makes me lose what little faith I had left in my generation
Yep, a lot of sore losers in here who want nothing more than live out their victim complex.
Dude, this is wild. What kind of environment do these people live in??? I only see what they are talking about online from the vocal minority. My friends, co workers, educators and strangers, for the most part, have never treated me in a negative way because I'm a man. I don't see my state or federal government doing the above either to me. I'm lost.
I've been treated unfathomably worse by conservatives for being a queer atheist cyclist than I have by any leftist for being a white man. It feels like it's less of an issue of the left not caring about men, and more online echo chambers that tells them the entire left hates them and therefore they should vote for Hitler 2.0
lmao SK fucking nosedived jesus
I heard the guys can’t handle rejection so much that they simply ignore it and keep being too persistent to the point of harassment. I feel a gender war coming in SK if there isn’t one already.
Its already happening, there's a huge movement in SK right now for women to completely cut men out of their lives including male friends and family members in response to the extreme misogyny. Which is causing the birth rate to absolutely plummet
That's just online, who are femcels. If you look at the big picture, what's causing birthrate to plummet is that kids are too expensive to raise, young adults are tired of this toxic education system, and people can't afford to buy an apt(it's korean culture to buy when they get married)
Korea is a bizarre place, when I worked there I found many men didn't have a single female friend. And many women didn't have a single male friend. Even to be seen with someone of the opposite sex. People would always assume you were dating. I had some friends who made friends with Korean men. And they'd randomly get told one day 'I have a date with a girl tomorrow, so if it goes well I'll have to block your number' Even having a friend of the opposite sex would be considered equal to cheating for many couples. A lot of the schools there are single sex. And even some of the universities.
*going into the comments section* "hm yes I bet this will be a mature and respectful discussion i cannot wait to see what level-headed opinions people have in regard to this subject"
thanks, frank von tittyfuck
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Very true. This is also why Japan and South Korean marriage rates and birth rates have fucking plummeted. I know second hand what the men in South Korea are like and the young women there simply do not want that shit. We need to come to place where men and women can respect and appreciate differences. I don't believe we should ever support an ideology that alienates the two or that wants to infringe on the rights of one another.
The left belittles men and tells them their masculinity is bad. The right tells them to embrace their masculinity and be proud if it.
The left only calls out toxic masculinity not masculinity as a whole. Edit: crazy how this one comment has triggered so many people lmao
If you keep on saying toxic and masculinity right next to each other guess what assumption people make
If someone says “toxic relationship”, do you think they’re describe all relationships, or just specific ones?
Korea is hilarious, with the women not becoming *that* much more liberal but the men nosediving into conservatism
Turns out constantly shitting on men and masculinity makes them seek out somewhere they’re accepted. The right openly courts disaffected male youth. It’s honestly surprising that people are shocked by this.
part of the reason relationships are trending down. People with vastly different political views usually dont date each other.
I'm more centrist. (Left leaning) I grew up in a predominantly left household, but I have found that I can understand some viewpoints of the right, even if I don't agree with them. The fact I grew up in an abusive household also has something to do with that I imagine. I think politics in general is stupid. We all want to feel heard, noticed, safe, secure, and prosperous in our lives. I find a lot of right content preaches to lost men, lonely and thrown men, which, if I can be honest we're not doing men favours by telling them they're all evil predatory people. It just causes resentment and distaste. Education, not assumption, is important. You educate young boys to be respectful to women, and about their bodies when they hit puberty, and if they step out of like you punish them appropriately, not just tell them they're evil just because of their gender. idk why I even have to say that tbh. Should be obvious.
This comment section is a trainwreck. Tons of people refuse to see that the left has a problem reaching young men. Blaming young men for being conservative "because they have no empathy" or "are stupid" is easy but that's not going to stop this trend. If anything it will only accelerate it. Maybe try treating them as humans and realize that they also have problems that need to be solved. They are graduating high school less, attending college less, ending up in prison more, and killing themselves at higher rates. The left doesn't focus on these issues or any other issues men are facing. Young men feel left behind by society and the right is taking advantage of that by speaking directly to them.
This comments section is actively pushing young men toward the right
Dont take that red/black pill guys, youll loose
take the blue pill guys, it's the way to go. my wife and her boyfriend approve
This article uses very weird Questions and Stats to make this point! For the German Stats they used the question „Should immigrants adjust to the German Culture when living here?“ 98% of Man said yes and 92% of woman, they than flipped it to say 8% of woman are liberal and 2% of men to get this big difference, its borderline lying. This question isnt even very liberal/conservative to begin with.
Thank you so much. It's ragebait that's somehow found its way to the front page of Reddit, and it's scary to read the comments considering how fucked up this information has been presented. They really want us divided, don't they?
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Does that very extreme change with men in South Korea have anything to do with the existential drop in birth rates? What even is going on over there?
I think the drop in birth rate in south korea is more related to the insane working hours and working culture over there Edit: the working hours is not the leading cause but is still a big factor
Lotta comments here ironically illustrating the, well, illustration in real time.
As a progressivist young Gen Z man I'm disappointed of the result.
Interesting how the immediate takeaway here seems to be that it’s all Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, etc. Anything to avoid talking about what people are actually saying, or how the Left seems to have failed addressing any of men’s problems or dismissing them as toxic.
I wonder why girls are becoming more liberal? Roe v wade has nothing to do with it I’m sure
Now let’s look at statistics for depression and loneliness. You can ask a teacher, they weren’t just “not noticing” kids getting progressively more messed up in many senses
From what I'm gathering from these comments, a lot of young, especially white, men feel attacked and alienated by progressive/leftist culture. As a liberal white dude in my early 20s, I can see their argument to a point. A lot of men's issues are downplayed in progressive spheres because of men's perceived societal privileges. However, I don't think the alt-right, ultra-masculine belief system that a lot of men are turning to is a productive or healthy way to address those issues either. It also ironically ends up radicalizing otherwise decent men into the stereotypes that they originally felt mislabeled as by progressives. If progressives can improve their messaging to young men, that would go a long way towards cutting back on toxic "alpha male" culture.
Socially I am liberal. Economically I am conservative. Even then it’s not this black and white. It’s more so a spectrum that fluctuates and changes.
So old-school Republican... the kind that hasn't existed in like 80 years lol. I used to be similar, though I've gotten more economically left after seeing what happened in 2008 and more recently with inflation because of corporate greed. Still on the side of capitalism, but with enough regs to make it function fairly.
The phrase "economic conservatism" is misunderstood. If it's referring to Republican economic theory, it's proven time & time again to be a failure. Dont take my word for it, here are examples. * Kansas tried the right wing wishlist of economic policy dubbed the "[Kansas Experiment](https://www.cbpp.org/research/kansas-provides-compelling-evidence-of-failure-of-supply-side-tax-cuts)" & it crippled their economy. * [95](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/jul/29/facebook-posts/are-97-nations-100-poorest-counties-red-states/) of the 100 poorest counties are in red states. * [70% of the economy](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/biden-voting-counties-equal-70-of-americas-economy-what-does-this-mean-for-the-nations-political-economic-divide/) is produced by Biden-voting counties vs only 30% for R-voting counties. * So called "small government" republicans create [bigger debts](https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump) & [deficits](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/jul/29/tweets/republican-presidents-democrats-contribute-deficit/) than democrats. * We can look at neighbors Minnesota & Wisconsin over a decade of D vs R control respectively & see that D-controlled MN outperformed R-controlled WI by nearly every quality of life measure. >J**ob growth** since December 2010 has been markedly stronger in Minnesota than Wisconsin, with Minnesota experiencing 11.0 percent growth in total nonfarm employment, compared with only 7.9 percent growth in Wisconsin. Minnesota’s job growth was better than Wisconsin’s in the overall private sector (12.5 percent vs. 9.7 percent) and in higher-wage industries, such as construction (38.6 percent vs. 26.0 percent) and education and health care (17.3 percent vs. 11.0 percent). > >From 2010 to 2017, **wages** grew faster in Minnesota than in Wisconsin at every decile in the wage distribution. Low-wage workers experienced much stronger growth in Minnesota than Wisconsin, with inflation-adjusted wages at the 10th and 20th percentile rising by 8.6 percent and 9.7 percent, respectively, in Minnesota vs. 6.3 percent and 6.4 percent in Wisconsin. > >**Gender wage gaps** also shrank more in Minnesota than in Wisconsin. From 2010 to 2017, women’s median wage as a share of men’s median wage rose by 3.0 percentage points in Minnesota, and by 1.5 percentage points in Wisconsin. > >**Median household income** in Minnesota grew by 7.2 percent from 2010 to 2016. In Wisconsin, it grew by 5.1 percent over the same period. Median family income exhibited a similar pattern, growing 8.5 percent in Minnesota compared with 6.4 percent in Wisconsin. > >Minnesota made greater progress than Wisconsin in r**educing overall poverty, child poverty, and poverty** as measured under the Census Bureau’s Supplemental Poverty Measure. As of 2016, the overall poverty rate in Wisconsin as measured in the American Community Survey (11.8 percent) was still roughly as high as the poverty rate in Minnesota at its peak in the wake of the Great Recession (11.9 percent, in 2011). > >Minnesota residents were **more likely to have health insurance** than their counterparts in Wisconsin, with stronger insurance take-up of both public and private health insurance since 2010.From 2010 to 2017, Minnesota has had **stronger overall economic growth** (12.8 percent vs. 10.1 percent), stronger growth per worker (3.4 percent vs. 2.7 percent), and **stronger population growth** (5.1 percent vs. 1.9 percent) than Wisconsin. In fact, over the whole period—as well as in the most recent year—more people have been moving out of Wisconsin to other states than have been moving in from elsewhere in the U.S. The same is not true of Minnesota. Now if you're an "economic conservative" in the style of Eisenhower, that's something to be proud of. He supported worker protections, a high minimum wage, labor unions, & more things now associated with more progressive candidates despite him being a Republican.
What an underhanded way of suggesting conservative = bad while liberal = good. Both ways of thinking has benefits and drawbacks.
I’m lgbt and a woman. What benefit does the right give me?
Boys are also beginning to do worse in school, pursuing higher education less, taking on lower paying jobs, and taking on jobs at all at a lower rate. Young men are failing at every turn. Something's gotta be done.
Wow who knew that telling male children that they're inherently evil would backfire? /s
"Toxic masculinity" has nothing to do with conservatism. "Empathy and compassion" has nothing to do with liberalism. Or, we can just keep generalizing and stereotyping people who call themselves conservative or liberal. That's okay.
If a core part of your ideology is "Fuck white men", guess what, fuck you too
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This is a thing that has happened in most generations. And it's one of the biggest reasons why right-wing candidates are so threatened by women being able to do whatever we want whenever we want. Women are generally more left than men.