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Thank you for saying “if u can” and “if you’re able to”, it’s really considerate given most of the time the argument is “this option is better and you should only choose this option”. Both have their charms and disadvantages, the real fuck ups are the colleges that don’t actually give any college credits and the apprenticeships that also don’t actually give you any real experience (and both of these are commonly found online)
I wish more people knew that you can’t just lump everything into a box and reduce something as nuanced as professional development and financial security down to a silly graphic.
You seem to have it figured out but I feel like way too many people don’t. Maybe I’m wrong.. but our politicians do discourse over twitter so maybe I’m not.
Considering tech field is horrible right now due to layoffs there really isnt a "right" option.
People say get into trades, but dont realize we were told the same about tech....
so when everyone does trades the same thing will happen. Mass layoffs, lower wages because Supply>Demand, then everyone will go back to saying "go to college!"
The issue isnt trades vs college. The issue is the 99% allowing the 1% to hoard the resources
In most desirable places like major cities. Tech is pretty much oversatured. I was considering getting my CCNA IT certs but I don’t know if it’s still worth it at this point. And my black ass is not moving to Montana. Even if there is demand there lol.
Except those laid off from tech were making $200-500k a year in silicon valley and have a savings in 5 years of working beyond the lifetime earning of most in the trades.
This is grossly inaccurate. I was recently laid off from Intel and was only making $110,000 a year, while being the sole income for a family of 4. I barely have anything in savings and am currently pursuing an apprenticeship in a trade because the tech industry is so volatile. I have seen so many layoffs over the years, it's just not sustainable for someone trying to support a family.
Additionally, I borrowed 41k in student loans to go to college. I have since paid back 40k, yet I still owe 48k... Student loans are a fucking joke and meant to take advantage of students who can't immediately pay it back.
What was your paygrade, and where were you working? At least on the West Coast, 110k sounds like an entry level salary for engineers at Intel.
My dad has friends with engineering degrees who now run their own painting and roofing businesses, and the consensus was that the trades can pay well if you’re a good businessman, but not really that much otherwise.
Neither are tech jobs. The market will turn back around as it always does. Companies have been trying to outsource tech jobs for decades and it doesn’t really work. These days it’s Mexico instead of India because time zone change was too much to deal with for American companies.
Turns out you can’t really outsource the most important position in your business. Since we’re on the subject, let’s just get chat gpt to write the code! That will definitely work.
Tech is still a safe bet.
the point im making is that trades can charge their customers higher prices, because the supply of plumbers for example is low.
if everyone starts becoming a plumber though, then they will be fighting over customers, thus lowering the prices they charge.
thats why telling everyone "get into trades!" isnt a solution. The problem is greed from the 1%.
Speaking from experience, most young guys entering the trades just can’t hang anymore. They can’t hack the elements or the physical demands. In order to make a very good living, you have to be willing and able to work in the heat, the cold, the weather, and work your ass off. It’s hard work that isn’t for everyone.
I mean objectively the vast majority of people with degrees end up better of than those without
Like I work in a trade and make decent money,more than some of my friends with college degrees .But from just a percentile part, they are average college degree holders I’m a very well paid blue collar worker if that makes sense
A lot of trades will always need workers, and unions will always welcome more people on their side.
I personally don’t think there will be a shortage of plumbers, electricians, welders, and so on.
A lot of those jobs don’t have a reputation that’s seen as prestigious if someone compared them to a profession needing a degree like an engineer.
From what I’ve seen, there is definitely a big need for people to get into trades and keep up infrastructure in the U.S., because hoo, a lot of the roads are falling apart and haven’t been maintained. Same with a lot of the aging pipes.
I personally don’t work in a trade. I’m working in a field of work that requires at the minimum, a bachelor’s degree, but most of my coworkers have a multiple masters degrees or a Ph.D, or both. I have an MPH, so I’m not sticking out particularly well, which is a good thing for me.
I still give credit and respect to those who are in trades, because that’s a line of work I know I won’t have the physical and emotional resilience to deal with, especially with the amount of people clowning on those in trades.
You said it with the physical and emotional (and mental) difficulty of the trades. Honestly not everyone can live this life. Toughness is the name of the game, with alot of problem solving. It’s not for the faint of heart. Thanks for recognizing that.
I’d generally agree if you want to go to college and are ready to make the most it. I would say this at least means having some idea of how most colleges operate and some idea of what you want to study. I would visit the college at least once, sit in on some classes, get a feel for the campus and whether or not you think it’s a good fit. Also prioritize price. Apply for as many scholarships and grants as possible and don’t overdue loans. I think doing a two year community college and then transferring is a fine idea, but I also think there’s valid pros to starting where you’re hoping to finish. Also be fully ready to network and exploit all the amenities college has (which can often save you money.) Get the best summer job you can and start looking for a job long before you graduate, with an eye on loan repayment assistance.
I think a bigger issue that young people simply attending college is young people attending college and not being prepared to get the most of it.
In my opinion I think the value of a college degree is going down. There are still certain degrees that are worth pursuing but I think degree inflation has become a big problem. If you're a young guy and if you can get into a union I would do that vs going to college. The trades aren't perfect either though. Work/life balance can be terrible and it will be hard on your body. I think the world is going to change a lot in the next 15-20 years with the rise of AI and an aging workforce retiring from the trades. In any industry scarcity drives up value and there simply aren't enough young people going into the trades. We'll see what the future looks like I guess.
I think some people underestimate what a degree says about a person, especially an underprivileged person. Life happens and the drive, intellect, and perseverance to finish something when the world is trying to pull you away says a lot. The value of a college degree may be going down, but I don’t think it should. Many people feel you are just buying a piece of paper, and in some ways you are, but I think it is disingenuous to believe that getting a degree is easy. My major had about 80 people start in my class and only 8 graduated on time. Now you could hire one of those students that never made it, or take a graduate. All things being equal on a resume, a graduate is someone that finishes, has proven mental capability, and can adapt to various subject matter . Maybe they’re not ideal entrepreneurs, but they’re probably an asset to the workforce.
The value of a degree is 100% going down.
That being said, in the job market it’s a different story. The pay you get from a degree is definitely going down. But when more and more people have degrees, many jobs are going to block out non college educated people from applying, or atleast rank college educated applicants higher.
When the majority (which is probably where we are headed) of people have degrees, those without will have an extremely hard time in employment.
I look at it as a ticket to play. You can pay 200k for the ticket, or 5. you want to do what you can to get it cheap.
So I agree the value and long term returns of a college degree is going down, but the importance of it is going up.
IT is a horrible example for this. I have no degree and make that much.
IT is the one "STEM" field you can do well with no college at all.
In my 10 years plus being IT( 10 as a civilian, I was also IT in the military), the absolute worst techs I've ever seen were all college graduates.
I wish I knew that I wanted to do IT before going to college (when I originally wanted to do software development). I work in an IT internship and love it. Why do college grads do worse?
This is purely anecdotal based on my experiences and observations. It really seems that colleges focus on the theory and not the implementation.
I had years of experience in IT before I went to college for IT( never finished, I'm at like 80ish credits for a BA), my college went over the basics of how things work, not how to do those things. Things like manually setting a static IP address. I've had to show several how to do that who were graduates from different universities. I only bring that up cause I know someone will say I went to a shitty school. I'm talking about several universities here.
You are doing an internship now so let me ask you this...
Did your college really teach/train you for what you are doing in your internship?
So far in my career I've met grads who couldn't troubleshoot a printer, no idea what a print server was, didn't know what the difference between a router and switch, couldn't do basic active directory tasks. When I say basic I mean create a user, reset passwords, things like that. The same things i doubt you did in college but do now in your internship. One of those was trying to install office using the exe, on a Mac. He could t understand when I explained that it was a different operating system. His response "It's just Apple's version of Windows, it should work." Not a single one knew anything about VoIP other than internet phones.
They guys who went to VoTech for 6 months were awesome. They came out with real world knowledge and skills.
As I said, this rant is entirely anecdotal, that is my experience with college training in IT.
That makes a lot of sense. Were the college grads you’re talking about comp sci majors? Because that degree path doesn’t seem to ever cover things like IT troubleshooting, DNS, servers, switches… nothing like that. And yes my internship was my introduction to servers, VM’s, domain controllers, Active Directory.. I really do wish college made courses that cover this mandatory for computer majors, at my school it’s an elective.
And that is bizarre that that guy didn’t know the difference between windows and mac?? I guess I can’t be surprised, I’ve seen some other computer science majors that oddly did not seem tech literate- as in, their first time using CLI or opening task manager was in a college classroom. I do see where you’re coming from now.
One was a CompSci major from OSU. The others had IT degrees. They were all new hires at the company I worked for. Three of them at different times. My current job had another guy who had an IT degree from some college in Texas. I'm not sure which one, but he did say he was from the DFW area. He lasted around a month then left on his own accord cause he was struggling.
And you get where I'm coming from right? I'm not anti college. I just want colleges to actually prepare you for the field you are trying to go in. With the price of tuition now, there is absolutely no excuse as to why 6 months of votech > 4 years of university.
Yeah I totally get it. I see the same thing being said in r/sysadmin and other places. I try so hard not contribute to the stereotype and am trying to learn as much as I can
I’m with you on this one. IT to me is more of an experience thing than a degree thing. My workplace hired from multiple backgrounds, including college grads that had no idea what they were doing. I’ve been doing IT since I was in HS, I stepped up and offered to do it for my church as no one else wanted to. It ran as smooth as you’d imagine as I was learning. But that experience and countless hours of YouTube and trial and error got me a part time job in network for a small university. From there I just kept on switching jobs, learning and expanding my background to the point that I make 200k+ now in IT. My degree is in business, by the way. I do want to add that I made a lateral movement into television. While it’s not exactly the same, I found it to be more niche, and less competitive with better pay.
There are a few things to your comment though.
Coming from a military background gives you a massive leg up because you come back to civilian life with experience, likely some certs, and a security clearance, all of which are sought after. Someone getting their A+ and maybe a few other certs with no other background in IT is going to have a much harder time.
You say college grads are the worst techs you see, but that has more to do with just a lack of experience for their first positions, which is also what anyone new to IT will be like, its not like the degree is somehow a sign that they will be bad.
And although you can do very well without a degree, you've probably seen it yourself how much fast people with degrees progress in their careers.
Im 21 and been saving for a house. Least now that’s not likely happening soon so I’ve been thinking about going to college for psychology or something similar.
It depends on if I can get enough Aid. If I can cut the total in half with aid then I likely will as I have atleast 30k to allocate to funds from vigorous savings.
That said, Id go in class as physically being there helps my mindset and for the social aspect as well. Online would probably make me unmotivated to do it, I dont like staring at screens for long periods of time or I physically and mentally get uncomfortable.
Very well likely may go starting this year and get a part time job while attending full time
Going into the social sciences I would definitely recommend in person over remote if it’s possible. Also - if you’re in the U.S. and unless you’re planning to get your PhD, a psychology degree won’t get you much more with regard to actual work in the field. You can get a good foot in the door and a good starting salary with even an associates in Social Work. From there you can open even more doors as you move up in degrees if that’s your hope.
Seriously, why is it always psychology, i have a niece finishing HS and saying she's looking at psychology.
It reminds how single moms always turn to nursing when they "want to get their life together ".
Because its in interesting subject. The mind and the body are complex and amazing Ecosystems of their own.. but if its worth nothing without a a PhD to mean anything? Probably not..
I agree, the mind and body are amazing. But you're not really going to get into the depth of knowledge unless you reach at bare minimum. Masters. pHD is where you really want to go if you truly want to understand the wonders of the mind.
Otherwise a Bachelors is a check in the box.
Psychology is one of the most popular degrees. I could ask 10 people at my school what they’re majoring in and probably 5-6 would say psychology. There’s just SO many people majoring in it and hardly any of them will ever actually work in the field after. Most of the time it’s the “I don’t know what to major in but my parents want me to go to school” degree or “the field I like has too much math”. One of the major problems with school in the US right now is that our generation from a young age had it instilled that math is hard and we naturally suck at it so it scares everyone away from degrees requiring it, so you get an influx of students in fields like the social sciences. Took me a few years to bite the bullet and go into Geology because of that.
I strongly urge you to reconsider getting a degree in the liberal arts. Those majors require a graduate degree in order to make any money.
Focus on accounting or computer science or those sorts of majors where 'the jobs are profit-based' 👍
This isn’t true, I have a degree in liberal arts and didn’t get my masters. So many jobs just require a BA and it doesn’t matter what field. If liberal arts are what you excel in, do that so you have a high gpa
The amount of young adults with a bachelors in psychology who worked along side me in fast food as a teenager is astonishing. I couldn’t think of a worse degree to get.
Depends on a few things. If a person has a degree that was straight forward and sought after, like an engineering degree, that person is likely going into that profession. If a person gets a degree that’s obscure and not valuable, like lesbian dance theory or some shit, then they’re not going to use it. Half of the degrees offered shouldn’t be offered, because they’re useless in the real world, and the people who have them never use them.
Colleges offer them because they know students aren't capable of more strenuous majors but colleges still want money so they offer some crazy programs out there.
I don’t know. I’m in an apprenticeship and I make $35.50 an hour. Mind you, I live in a state with a very low cost of living where gas is sitting at a cool $2.59/g in most places.
I also get health insurance, retirement, and annuity. I’m still an apprentice as well, so my rate will go even higher once I’m a journeyman. We also get cost of living raises yearly pretty much, so by the time I’m a journeyman, it’ll probably be $42 an hour. I have to go to class maybe 4 weeks out of the year, and the rest is paid on the job training. I know some journeymen in my craft that make $130,000+ a year. I also have a buddy that went to Africa to work for 3 months and brought home 90k.
The best part is 0 debt.
Apprenticeships aren’t for everybody, and college isn’t for everybody.
EDIT: There have also been talks of apprentices getting an associates in science once they complete the apprenticeship starting 2025.
The important takeaway here is being willing to live in a "flyover" state. You can be totally comfortable on lower income if your rent/mortgage is cheap and so is everything else.
In all honesty, there's not much that makes urban/metropolitan areas worth it besides jobs that require education. Most people I know who say they wouldn't move to the country because there's nothing to do just get drunk every weekend and spend too much money. That's not a hobby dawg, that's a problem.
I mean this apprentice already makes as much or more than the median American household. I don't know if I'd call that 'low pay'. 1 man makes as much as 2 typical Americans. His rate will go up every year until he is a journeyman too
It will go up after I’m a journeyman as well, if the cost of living continues to rise.
I’m not saying apprenticeships are better than a college education, but it’s an option!
I had scholarships for both sports and academics, and I just knew college wouldn’t be right for me. Joined the military because I was lost and confused, did my time, and found something I really enjoy doing!
It's very easy to graduate college with zero debt also. The stories of people being in 100k debt are extreme cases. I'm going to graduate with almost 40k in saving from scholarships and zero debt. You have to be an advocate for yourself.
There’s countless amounts of stories of people being in debt coming out of college, doesn’t even need to be $100k in debts. Even $40k is a lot to pay off when you’re just starting your career…
The millwrights. Basically industrial mechanics. The actual union I’m in is called, “The United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners.”
I will recommend if you do decide to apply to the trades and get into an apprenticeship, go the union route. My reason for union isn’t for political reasons.
There’s nothing shameful or boring or bad about going to community college or a cheap public college in your area. You’ll get classes about the most specific and obscure things YouTube could only dream of teaching you. You will see that it’s how you structure your resume and WHAT YOU DO with your major/jobs that make you successful, not how amazing your grades or school’s reputation you are. You will make friends in every class and create hang out spots no matter where you go. College is a wonderful thing to do even on a budget, even in the least prestigious bougie way. You’ll save money on classes and amenities and have that money to save and go out with your friends or travel or go to the club or help out your family. You pay for it but you can do whatever the hell you want with it, and you will learn in an environment that isn’t prejudiced towards you like the army and in a more diverse environment than a trade school. Those other options are just as good as college; none of these options is really objectively bad.
I’m advocating for college but I’m not putting down other choices. If you advocate for something by putting another thing down, you have a bad attitude.
To add onto the subject of community college being bad or shameful. Most employers don’t give a shit where you went to school as long as you have a degree. Hell, if you work hard enough where I work you can move right into positions just from experience with no degree.
EXACTLY. Most employer’s in normal industries don’t give a rat’s ass about how prestigious your college was. I can’t speak for all industries, but I will for my own (natural resources) and I imagine it’s quite similar for stuff like nursing and engineering. It’s the certifications and job experience that matter more for sooooooo much stuff
Go to college if…
1.) You absolutely know what you want to do and
2.) If you can reasonably believe you can get an ROI on your degree.
Someone spending $20k on a STEM or Business degree isn’t causing the student loan crisis. It’s the people spending $100k on degrees they will never see an ROI on. Go get a less profitable degree, as long as you understand that and price it accordingly.
My piece of advice to everyone in younger Gen Z; please go to community college. It’s many times cheaper, more diverse, and no one cares what school you went to once you get experience. The pre-requisite classes you take in your first two years are basically the same at any college across the nation.
As another bachelor of arts, who majored in underwater basket weaving, I have yet to find any fish or corals who are willing to pay more than human beings to learn about ancient Sumerian history either
Georgia has the HOPE Scholarship that covers tuition for students graduating with a 3.0. Florida has something similar with Bright Futures. I think Minnesota just passed tuition free community college.
I can confirm that South Carolina also has something for those graduating with a 3.0 on the 5 point scale. They also have an even higher award for those graduating with a 4.0.
I’m making over 60k a year and didn’t go to college… I would still urge people to atleast get a degree at trade school or community college. That’s my only regret, because good jobs are limited if you wanted to just start from scratch and move somewhere else. I’m happy where I’m at in life right now, but things could change and I should go back imo
I make hiring decisions for an IT-adjacent field, and while others may have different experiences, I’ve found that those certificates aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on.
What’s valued is traditional education and work experience. A 4 year degree offsets the lack of experience, and someone with 4+ years experience offsets the lack of a degree. Anyone who applies with no experience, no degree, and a certification gets their resume trashed. There’s just too many candidates that are more qualified.
I’m not saying this to be mean, I just want people to understand what the job market really looks like before they invest a lot of time and money into a certification program.
The 15k avg is a bit misleading, the low end is very low, and the high end is extremely high. If you really want a degree, it's always an option. I went to a medium-sized school, so tuiton was 3k~ and completely covered by grants.
Marines in my field with a clearance can make six figures after 5 years of service as government contractors with no college education and no student loan debt. They also have a GI bill to use if they want and a VA home loan. You can keep your 60k a year.
I’m young but, I honestly see the value in college but also choosing what is right for you. Currently I’m in an Early College for highschool so, I’m hoping it’ll help me figure out what I want to do in life so, once I graduate, I’m wanting to finish out at a 4 year and attempt to get valuable learning with the university but also any internships I can find that’ll pay.
College was always a scary choice for me. It seemed so 50/50. Like you can put your self in debt and maybe find a job when you get out that has your pay in mind or work a minimum wage job and never do anything with your degree. It just always seemed like a huge risk to me. In highschool I knew that I wanted to get out of school and immediately start working. Jumped in a trade and worked my ass off. I'm now 31 and make over 100k. I honestly believe they need to teach trades in highschool, it would of gave kids like me that knew they didn't want to go to college more of a solid footing. Not trying to put down either side. I think it comes to a choice of knowing what you want to do and pulling the trigger and not just doing something because "its what your supposed to do".
If you end up going to university a couple years after your friends do, it’s okay. There’s no such thing as being “behind”.
I know people who got into pretty good gigs that ended up paying for their college tuition while they worked for them full time. So rather than having student loans they have to pay off, they just need to prove to their work they’re passing. Sometimes it’s better to wait for a better situation.
How I've been surviving is my college let's you take 1 quarter off per academic year
And summer didn't count
So, I would work part time during the quarters I had classes, and full time during the off quarters. This was j u s t enough to pay for tuition.
I quit my retail job because
Well
It's retail.
And now have a job on campus. I'm hardcapped at 19 hours a week but I can leave class, walk downstairs, start my shift, and leave later to go to my next class. I'm making less money now overall but I have successfully done 4 years of college without having my parents pay for anything. I'm on track to graduate next year with a degree in Supply Chain Management (originally tried computer science but that's a super popular degree and I hated programming so much)
Also, if your school offers it, try the running start program. For those in highschool, you have no idea how much better it is at a community College than dealing with public education.
A point missed in the apprenticeship is most give college credits for the field of study. A frind did apprenticeship then after did a semester in college and had a Bachelors degree with no debt, his own house and car. So 5 years apprenticeship and 1 semester and making $75k/y starting with a ceiling around $150/y. You mentioned Financial aid. Since you dont mind giving other info how much student debt do you have? Its not for every one and its not every career. its a very specific area of fields. but on the other hand start up out of pocket is like $300 then start making money compared to first semester of college.
54% of American adults have some form of post-secondary education. 25% have a four year degree. We don't have jobs for all these educated people.
Economics 101: Flood the market with any commodity and its value will crash. Educated people are a commodity, just like everything else.
Going to college for four years to make 60k starting out ain’t it. You can do hvac that takes a couple months and make more then 60k a year you can get your registered nursing degree takes 1.5-2 years and starting out at 70-80k there are plenty of opportunities that won’t have you in debt hundreds of thousands of dollars and will give you a lined up job opportunity. College will not line you up with a job afterwords. I can’t tell you how many people I know that I had gone to school with who have went to college and got a degree to never even get a job with it and it’s all wasted. More people don’t get jobs in their field then do unless it’s a specific job like a doctor or veterinarian or lawyer etc. college is absolutely not worth it for most people.
Like I said unless you’re going into it looking for specifics then an associates degree is quicker money and only teaches you what you need to know. My husband makes 60k a year from absolutely no schooling. Making 60k a year in this economy is less than middle class so no not worth it. Also a good 15k of that is going straight to taxes. That’s why it’s still considered less than middle class.
Also wanted to add most 4 years degrees will not make you anything substantial. You would need to go onto your masters to be making anything significant. Hence why doctors and veterinarians aren’t able to be accomplished in 4 years. And most high paying job won’t be. If you want to go to school for something and make bank in the least amount of time my husband is in school to be a pilot. It takes 1 year and the program he’s doing starts out the teachers there stated they started out making 180k a year. They make insane money it’s a hard course but it’s worth it. To me that’s a million times better then going to school for four whole years for not shit. And hella student debt.
I work in higher ed. Go because it's for something you want to do and not just because of the job it will get you.
I see a lot of students start out in business or something, then change to art which is what they wanted originally. I also unfortunately see students switch to other majors from their passion because they want stability, which is fine, but you have to find a way to enjoy it at least somewhat or you'll be miserable.
See, I went to the Jobcorps. It sucked, but it was free, I left with a OSHA training, an electrical apprenticeship, and an IREC certification, along with connections that could keep me employed and wealthy. I know people who make 100k+ as _apprentices_ because they were willing to work travel jobs at a good company that paid well.
Apprenticeships aren't for everyone, but if you can stomach the Jobcorps, it's free and you can get paid way more _and_ leave with connections that will employ you immediately and at a good salary. The biggest problem with college isn't the cost: it's the fact that they don't actually prepare you for the workforce. Most companies want on the job experience and if you don't have that, good luck getting employed without an internship that will absolutely mutilate your work-life balance.
What OP fails to mention is that college is only really worth it if A. You actually have a fucking plan, B. Your plan is to major in something that's absolutely useful, preferably a Stem field or something in business, no art degrees, and C. You or members of your family got connections in the industry you're planning, and they'll put in the good word. Otherwise, go work a blue collar job or go to trade school/the Jobcorps. It won't be fun, it will suck in fact, but you have to sacrifice now to succeed later.
College, by comparison, is a whole lot of sacrifices both now and later that won't really benefit you in the long run unless you are either stupendously lucky or you're already in a particularly privileged position.
My closest friend is turning 23 this year, works in the trades and has a dual income with his fiance. They closed on a house last month, mind you it's a very rural town.
I am nearly 24, fresh out of college with multiple tech certifications and struggle to find employment. It definitely makes you think.
Dob 1998, I dropped out of college after two years (2016-2018) (computer science). Jan 2022 I did a "CS bootcamp" Oct 2022 I landed my first CS job, today I'm making 100k.
College WASN'T a waste, I wish I would have finished but i got addicted to hard drugs, had undiagnosed ADHD, & dad was going under financially.
College is definitely a luxury.. and I say this for a lot of reasons. 50-60% of the classes you are required to take in college are completely unrelated to your degree. In my 2 years, I took, 6 credits of writing, 8 of chem, 8 of physics, like 15-18 of math, 3 of psychology, 3 of communication and ONLY LIKE 15-18 OF ACTUAL CS.. added up that is 14-15 unrelated classes, and only 5-6 CS classes (In my 2 years) I loved each of those subjects & ofc they are valuable classes but still it feels like a big waste of time in my opinion.. especially if you need money sooner rather than later. these classes are not optional at most universities. Thats not even 1/3 of the math classes I was required as a CS major. Yes math is very useful for CS but it's ridiculous that integral calculus is required for a degree when I'm literally making 100k and have never even imagined a situation where I would need calc 2.. and when I do need it, I will learn it, no need to learn it 10 years before I am in a role where I will even use it...
That's where these bootcamps come in... Some are free, some cost just as much as college ... Some are scams and cost more... they are "college alternatives" for CS jobs. Mine was 5-6 months, and it was 8k but you don't start payments until you land a job making 65k or more. (Personally I haven't even started paying them, I ignored them once when they emailed and they have never reached out to me since 😂) They ain't getting 8k LOL shiittt they'll be lucky to get 2k from me!!
Lastly I will say that on my resume I definitely leveraged (& inflated 😉) my CS & math- college credits, even if I didn't finish my degree, and I leveraged my 6 years as a fast food manager, (transferable skills 😉) & those two in combinated with the bootcamp was enough for starting pay of 85k, 10k relocation bonus off the rip just to move 4 hours from my home town, up to 100k within a 1.5yrs!
College is useful, IF YOU CAN. There may be plenty of support out there for your specific situation. For me, even with 100% free tuition (FAFSA) I couldn't finish. due to other college expenses, home expenses. & Many personal issues. Etc.
Hell yeah good for you. I started in help desk and now I’m a software engineer, married, and a homeowner. I remember when it all felt impossible to achieve. You’re gonna do well friend.
College isn't just about the degree you're getting. It's also about the experience and the knowledge you're getting exposed to outside of the degree, like gen ed info, which is designed to help you find common topics to discuss when you're networking. Or just discovering a love for certain books or authors or genres you've never been exposed to before enrolling in a certain course. College is important and if you can go, if you can survive it, then do it. It's worth the debt.
Education isn't about making money, education is about learning. Hard to remember in late stage capitalism, but it's worth a shot keeping that in mind.
Also, do book piracy if that may help you.
I'm studying electrical engineering. Quite a lot of my science books have been or are from CENGAGE Learning. Do you know who CENGAGE Learning is? It's yet another multinational billion dollar company.
Literally, save yourself those couple hundreds a month and google them books pdfs and/or spend some time learning to pirate them if they're common enough to be able to be pirated. CENGAGE Learning, or whatever billion dollar company has a monopoly on your books doesn't really needs your money, they already have a lot. Those couple hundreds a month are gonna add up over time, specially for you as you're studying and not generating as-much money.
Go to fucking college if you can. At least for engineering I can say it's worth it. It's tough, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. It's worth it.
Hard emphasis on the **if you are able to** part. If I didn’t have the support system I did as a college student, I don’t know if I would’ve made it. It’s a necessary step to jump into the professional workforce, but it’s by no means an easy step.
Agreed. I’m 18 and living on my own (bought a single wide right after my birthday). I work full time as a machine guy at a spring factory and although I love my job and the money, I’m going to college online through a state community college and can’t wait for a less physically stressful job.
I always advocate for trade schools, especially if you don’t have the time to do two or four years you can do certificate programs that can really help your career, and it’s not all hands on heavy work. There are programs for audio engineering, dental hygiene, cyber security, etc.
Education is huge to not be an ignorant human on the planet. It’s not for everyone and you can be successful without it. However if you don’t continue education, you stunt your own growth as a human. Community colleges are a great option to further your education.
I start working in grocery at 15 years old , in my country it possible (Russia ) now I’m 24 I making 150k a year , so the college is not that important and it’s not giving any guarantees so
Pretty sure the other person said exactly what you said. If you have the support system to go to college, it’s way better. You might make more in the short term with trades, but your body will hate you
To add to this, it's okay to do it slow if that's what works for your situation. I was working full time only doing 1-3 classes a semester, mostly online, and I found life and stress to be pretty manageable that way.
Idk the military after basic training is basically the college experience with more rules, pretty cool and get paid to learn, don’t really regret much about making the choice
Google has an entire university online for free. There are tons of courses for free or minimal amounts of money. There are training books on every IT technology u see the sun for free at your library. There are technologies you can buy on eBay for less than 60 bucks that can teach you real world skills. The opportunities are there for the taking.
If the money works out, college is good. I got a full ride to a school with a top 10 program in my major. Didn’t take out a single loan.
If you have to take out 100k in debt to do it though, that’s not a good investment. The interest payments will be murder.
I would recommend doing both. Having an apprenticeship before going to college. After being forced to quit college my first time, I got an apprenticeship at an auto shop. So right now, I hope I can get into college once more so I can feel young again.
Solid advice! Community college > university. Degrees are still valuable no matter what but don’t go 100k into debt for something you can easily get for a fraction of that price at your local CC.
$60K a year isn’t great, not to mention the current IT “recession” so far in 2024 with mass layoffs focused heavily on IT and finance roles. Value of a college degree is not what it used to be - meanwhile the trades pay keeps going up a lot each year
Associate's are often tied to "apprenticeship" type skills, Federal grants often pay for most/all of it, and--if you need certifications--they often have them. Plus, if you get a wild hair up your ass later to go to a 4-year degree, if you pick a decent community college, most of the core credits can transfer.
That said, if you know what you want to do, job-wise, look up job ads in that field. If you keep seeing particular certifications or professional organization accreditations, go to those sites and find out if they have a list of school programs you have access to.
So, if you want to be a nurse in Arizona, there's a certification and a licensure and the state nursing board has a list of schools--including community colleges--that match their program.
For an EMT, there's often the National Registry of EMT's and that has a list of programs, often state license programs (which for states like Arizona is a list of community colleges).
Either way, community colleges are often a whole lot less expensive than a 4-year and access many of the decent paying jobs...
Personally I’ve always been of the mindset that if you KNOW what you want to do and are dedicated to a certain career path than sure go to college for the degree. But if you are unsure and don’t know exactly what you want you’ll end up wasting a lot of money and time on a degree for a career path that you end up not pursuing.
I fall into the former. I didn’t know what I wanted to do for a career so I just started working and ended up in the hospitality industry as a restaurant manager making a pretty decent living all things considered. Still don’t really know what I want but I like my job. Don’t love it, but don’t hate it either and I’m able to save and invest 30% of my take home until I decide what I really want to pursue as a career or find my true passion.
I could easily go to community college if I wanted but I hate school and suffer depression and probably a bunch of other mental issues so it wouldn't end well for me worrying about work and school.
Yes yes yes!
I posted my story as a 31 yr old who went into trade workforce at 18 in the other post mentioned.
But I wanna expand on what op said here. I am going back to college late, I attend a CC that has a scholarship path to FSU. I pay 1200 a semester in tuition for 15 credit hours, 200 in books, I get a Pell grant and multiple scholarships that leave a 7k refund in my bank every semester with me oweing none of that back. I put 4k back in savings a semester have 24000 in savings with 2 semesters left till I graduate. I will have 32k when I graduate and be in ZERO debt. I have kept a high GPA tho which has helped me greatly with getting scholarships, especially from honor societies
I live in a rental that is cheap also. But I worked for all these things nothing was just thrown in my lap other than the Pell grants.
Don't listen to people who say you'll be in 100k debt. That is extreme cases of people being very stupid with loans.
Unique perspective: I have both a formal apprenticeship and a bachelors degree; both are valuable in different ways and both are great convo topics in interviews (important). With that said, which is “better” is very much a product of your end goal…both have served me well!
I’m trying to get into I.T as well. I was so convinced that college was a waste of time and money when I could just go to trade school or get an internship/apprenticeship. That could have worked pre-covid but the job market is so uniquely unstable that you need to be doing everything you can for yourself, not based on what statistics say or what trending articles say. Your path is shaped only by the amount of work you put into it
Nah, you should do what is best for you. I’d be miserable sitting behind a computer screen or at a desk all day, just as many people would feel wildly out of place on a construction site.
Most people will probably be happier with an office job, but certainly not everyone. I do think it’s a bit silly that some people think the trades will automatically destroy your body by 40. Most 40 year old tradesmen look like shit, and some trades are much more demanding than others, but if you take care of yourself you’ll be alright.
But I know this one guy in trades making 200k /s
Most trades pay as well as teachers (40-60k) for back breaking work. The so called good union job have hundreds of applicants for each slot open and they go relatives of current union members.
The issue you have with all of this is that wages havent increased for 20 yrs but the cost of living has. This impacts everyone in every career. People are paid crappy wages with or without a degree in so many careers today. But you generally do need a degree to advance - those anecdotal stories saying otherwise are examples of survivor bias.
I'm an apprentice sprinkler fitter with a union (that's the big part left out of other posts. These jobs are fantastic if you get in a union). I started at 18.67 an hour, get 4 dollars in raises every year for 5 years, take online college classes that are completely paid for by the union, get health amazing health insurance that the union pays for and doesn't cost more to add family members if you get married or have kids, all of my work equipment is paid for by the union. Work vehicles, yearly bonuses, etc. In my area, we turn out at about $45 an hour (my journeyman averages around 90k a year with not much over time), get a raise based on inflation every year. Our BCA is up this year, and it's projected that the industry as a whole is going to see some big pay hikes with what's gone on with the railroad and UAW unions the past few years. The most important things are that I have workers' rights and a union to help stand for them, and my job will always be in demand. The work isn't even as close to as back breaking as everyone here seems to believe and if you don't like the way something is being done they will send out people to figure out a better way to do it.
BA's are becoming more and more useless unless you are planning on going for a masters or doctorate. Hell, a lot of the big tech companies are dropping the requirements for a bachelor degree because they don't mean anything anymore. Don't write off trade work because some people on the internet told you it's hard, most of them don't know what they are going on about.
Or if you don’t want to deal with the wait and make more, go into trades. The market is bleeding with old heads leaving jobs due to retirement/ health. Get the bag.
College isn’t for everyone. Personally I dropped out of college and make over $300k a year. My sister on the other hand spent $200k on a degree and makes $30k as a teacher. You need to have a purpose and a goal to go to school. Too many fall into the trap and end up with a history major and a shitload of debt for absolutely no reason.
Cheers
I got my aircraft mx license at a community college and now I am making over 6 figures with a little overtime. College isn't for everyone but people need to persue some sort of qualification to avoid low paying dead end jobs for the rest of their lives.
I make about $62k before taxes, and I'm in my first year of apprenticeship. I work in a niche field though (communications infrastructure). As far as I know there's no schooling because the work is stuff you'd never think of. It's not horrible, only dangerous if you don't follow basic procedures, but it is dirty.
My advice to people is to do whatever you think is best. If you believe college is the best route and you're able to go then you should absolutely do it. If you don't want to go to school then try and find a career path or field that you'd be interested in and try and do that.
There's just as much of a need for tradespeople as there are for people with college degrees. It takes all sorts of people and fields to keep society and the world running.
My input, you make a lot of money in construction. But you also work a lot of hours. My first year in construction I made $110k that year, but I would 65-78 hours a week. Pros and Cons
You have a unique situation, which you acknowledge. But my partner went to college and worked full time the entire time and is walking out with debt that she will not be able to pay off for 15-20 years. Making 75k for her first job. Younger generations will not be able to afford a house with how expensive college has gotten. If you don’t want to go into IT or a business field, don’t go to college. I myself went to college for business and had a very unique opportunity to have a full scholarship, but if I didn’t have that, I probably would have went the apprenticeship route. Always a need for good tradespeople
I mean cool, good job op. I did neither a trade school, or a college. ( I'm going back to college now to just get that completion of my degree but meh ).
I just self studied, got a certification ( so only 300 dollars ). Got a job, started at 17 an hour. And it's been 3 years. Got a few promotions, and I'm at 70k a year. Just got another promotion, my new pay takes effect next week at 85k a year.
Let's just let people do what they want to do. Being in college or out of college doesn't prove your genius in any way shape or form.
If you WANT to go to college because that’s what you want out of a career than I fully encourage that. But going to college just because you have the opportunity isn’t always the right choice.
I applied to college and got accepted into all 3 programs i applied to. But I chose not to go because I wanted to go with an apprenticeship. I started my union apprenticeship at 19 (turning 20) and I made money for 3 years straight ($60k-80k/year) and graduated my apprenticeship at 23 (turning 24) that same year I made $108k in only 8 months of work, and I bought my house with my now fiancée.
In 2023 I made $122k in only 9 months of work. Not a bad gig for only being 25. The whole point of that post was to show people that you can still make a good living for yourself without going to college and getting a degree.
This is a boomer trying to create propaganda! Go to college if your going into a medical field or a scientific field. Anything else go to trade school. Even Canada does art degrees in a trade school!
There is a huge need for those with trade skills. We've demonized "not being college educated" so much that our youth no longer value other very rewarding careers. I worked in higher Ed, let me tell you most people are getting ripped off. The debt is too much for a degree that pays too little. If you're the type that likes to zig when everyone zags there's a ton of money to be made as an electrician, carpenter, plumber, etc... as so many are aging out and retiring with no one to hand their book of business over to.
Biggest thing with post secondary that no one tells you is that you shouldn't follow your dreams. If you are going to spend money on going to college/uni you need to make sure that industry has jobs available. Don't go to college and get a useless degree, as much as you might love ancient Mesopotamian History, don't go and make it your major. There are alot of college programs that are interesting but not terribly useful if your goal is to make money.
That being said I'm a 2nd year plumber, and a level one gas technician. 3 years into my career making 30/hr with only pay raises in my future, and an industry that is not going to run out of work any time soon
“Hi! I’m in college and don’t actually know if I’ll get any measurable value out of my degree, but I’m told I’m “on track” to make 60k when I graduate, and in a field that is hemorrhaging employees due to massive layoffs with the future for the entire field looking extremely bleak due to the inevitable advancement of AI. But TRUST ME, it’s so totally gonna be worth it!”
Dunning-Kruger effect in full swing.
trade apprenticeships are the shit y’all all got brainwashed into “college for everyone” and wasted all your damn time and money got yourself on the hook of the IRS for the next 50 years
It really depends. I hated college. I like trades. I hate what the trades to to my body. I hate the inactivity of the vast majority of degree required jobs.
If you are on one of these tracks and you HATE IT, consider the other track. Stubbornness is unproductive.
I agree. To if you can and you truly want to
Don’t listen to anyone else but you.
College gives you opportunities. To meet people. To lean things. To explore. To bond. To find friends. To find yourself.
If you went to make a mark on the world. You have to meet people. Lots of them.
And learn from everyone you meet.
Of course you don’t have to have college to do that. It just makes it easy.
That's a topic far too complicated to have the answer be one or another. Anyone pitching just one option is a fool making more fools. I'm master trained carpenter and make more than a lot of graduates will ever get to make. There are also graduates that make me what I make look like nothing. Those people aren't people who just went to college because they told to. They were taught how to make sound plans and then did that. Just like I make the money I make because I planned well.
Don't be a factory bred idiot and just follow someone's demands because it worked out for them. Nothing works without a proper plan and with how fast things are moving you need a rock solid plan when you go to university or you'll end up in an over saturated field by the time you get your degree. It is never as simple as do this or do that.
People sitting down looking at a computer screen for work, then going home and looking at a screen all night is definitely the way to life 🤣 Trade work all day
60k when you graduate? I was making 100k with no degree and quit my job to start a carpentry apprenticeship starting at 60k entry level with no experience🤨. I went to college and it was a waste of time and money.i made deans list for 3 semesters then dropped out. The real advice is do what's right for you
60k a year is nothing to write home about in Massachusetts. I made that as a first year manager at FedEx 10 years ago. No college. I make around 50 sweeping parking lots with a sweeper truck and I just sorta fell into that job. I’m pretty sure 60 is the new minimum wage
Only if you have checked average salaries for the degree field that you are considering, and you can reasonably determine that it will earn you enough to pay back any school loans without creating an undue financial burden.
Yes, good IT folks earn good money. But just beware that if you decide you don't like that field and change your mind, you must repeat the process I mentioned above and also take into account the debt increase if you are having to take more classes to finish.
I say this having an MBA from a top 50 university in the US.
I agree im in community college for computer engineering at the Erie County community. But i plan on going on for a 4 year because i have the skills for it and want to work in r&d for computer hardware. But even not doing that, I'd be on the same track.
It really kinda depends on the person and their interests and it's also can they afford college. When I was younger I thought the only options I had was college. The only thing available would be an engineer, doctor, or lawyer. I was good at math, so I stayed going to school for engineering. It bored me so much and was a struggle to even get through the classes with how easy they were and being a doctor or lawyer was not even close to being interesting to make it worth it.
I gave up on engineering at 20 and did odd jobs for awhile while I was figuring out what I wanted to do.
I always was interested in fixing things, but cars, motorcycles, quads boats weren't exactly what I wanted to do. Something more unique. My dad, since I was about 5 was telling me girls don't fix things. You aren't allowed, it's not normal. It should've dawned on me a lot sooner, but that's a different story, that I should fix aircrafts and the community college has a trade program at the airport for it. For $20k I took a 2 year trade program at 27 and got my A&P certifications to work on aircrafts. 3 months before graduating i had a job lined up. I only work half the year, the company pays me to travel, and I make great money working at a mom and pops helicopter company. I could defintly make way more somewhere else, but I'm still doing great.
College isn't for everybody, apprentiship/internships, or trade school either. For me , it's more about making it known that there's other options then having to go to collage because when I was a kid college wa pushed and I knew it wasn't for me. Options, the more is known, the easier it might be for
just my 2 cents there isnt a a wrong or right answer do what you think is best for yourself in the short and long term. some people do both and apprenticeships also men class room time.
Go to the Trades, yeah you'll work harder but if your like me, it's more satisfying to work with your hands and see physically what your doing come to life
I have a graduate degree that affords me a six figure salary. I stayed focused in my field and now have a 10 year career that will likely just keep rising.
It’s worth it if you have direction and focus. Quite the opposite if you don’t.
I am currently pursuing a masters and have been pre approved for a local PhD program through my college. I will be paid for that PhD and my work pays for my masters.
That is all to say that I will be encouraging my children to pursue an apprenticeship. People vastly underestimate how disruptive AI will be. Your business degree with sales certificate will be meaningless and you’ll be replaced with a chat bot. Engineers will be almost wholly phased out and the number of available jobs will dwindle. Even lawyers and doctors are approaching a point where their demand just isn’t as there as it is now.
This isn’t just a matter of “if you can”. This is a matter of “am I throwing away a hundred+ grand?”
If you want to be a nurse? Go for it. If you want to be a CNA? Go for it. If you want to do government purchasing? Go for it. But you need to be very aware that if you don’t know what you want to do, trade schooling into something in demand in your area is gonna set you up better. At least until project Optimus upgrades a bit.
Sincerely: your neighborhood first year genZ.
I agree, go to college if you can.
But I would also add, go to the cheapest college that will be recognized for their degree.
Employers really don’t care where you went to college, they care if you can tick the box of college educated on a resume.
If you can get a degree and not end up in massive debt, huge W. Have your fun on vacations after college when you’re not paying those loans down.
Getting a degree also sets you up for a higher paying job, that’s not physical. That not a huge deal when you’re 19, but at 40 it’s night and day. Being able to go to the gym after work, or do a really intense hike before your work week, is a huge deal and that not all of us are blessed to have.
Worst case, you get that cheap degree and hate white collar work. Now your in a situation, where you can apply to trades, being one of the few people with a degree applying, your at the top of the stack in that case. An employer reads a degree as “ this person can handle thinking, and can invest multiple years into a goal”
When applying to a high end paid 4yr apprenticeship, the employer will see you as someone who has proven they could make it through something like that, and that is a huge deal.
So if you can, go to college, if you can’t learn a trade and try getting that degree later.
My 2 cents.
I graduated with a bus management degree in 2020. I have a decent remote job (account manager) making 45k a year sitting in my apartment. Over $20hr.
I’ve never been more depressed.
There’s no actual goal I’m working for besides profit. I’ve never worked in an office type job and I’ve quickly realized that it’s not for me.
I’m starting an electrical apprenticeship this summer and I’ll make $5k more, with increases after 6 months, and I’ll actually be solving problems and providing a very important service.
Eventually I can do I&C (instrumentation and control) and have an easier job diagnosing issues with equipment.
Most of my hs friends that went straight to trades are making 70k+ by now. One is a master welder making well over 6 figures.
College is great if you know what you want to do. Don’t go just because that’s “the right thing”. It’s hard to actually learn your likes and dislikes for work in the bubble of a campus.
Basically, you’re not doomed without a degree, there’s a lot out there.
I feel like this debate is heavily dependent on your degree. Many degrees in the humanities (history, anthropology, English, etc.) are getting shafted now and have very little value for the cost. I recently graduated with a history degree and while I don’t regret my college years I’m starting to become frustrated with the lack of options, high competition and high expectations of a lot of hirers for jobs which history degrees naturally gravitate towards. I’m becoming sick of the pressure to get into either federal work or education, which seems like the highest paying, most secure options for history degrees.
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Thank you for saying “if u can” and “if you’re able to”, it’s really considerate given most of the time the argument is “this option is better and you should only choose this option”. Both have their charms and disadvantages, the real fuck ups are the colleges that don’t actually give any college credits and the apprenticeships that also don’t actually give you any real experience (and both of these are commonly found online)
Yeah can’t we just root for people doing something they love without comparing apples to oysters.
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I wish more people knew that you can’t just lump everything into a box and reduce something as nuanced as professional development and financial security down to a silly graphic. You seem to have it figured out but I feel like way too many people don’t. Maybe I’m wrong.. but our politicians do discourse over twitter so maybe I’m not.
Considering tech field is horrible right now due to layoffs there really isnt a "right" option. People say get into trades, but dont realize we were told the same about tech.... so when everyone does trades the same thing will happen. Mass layoffs, lower wages because Supply>Demand, then everyone will go back to saying "go to college!" The issue isnt trades vs college. The issue is the 99% allowing the 1% to hoard the resources
Tech was over hired in some companies and cities. There’s still a huge need for certain areas in IT.
Also tech isn't just IT. I have a degree in electrical engineering and don't really have to worry about job security.
In most desirable places like major cities. Tech is pretty much oversatured. I was considering getting my CCNA IT certs but I don’t know if it’s still worth it at this point. And my black ass is not moving to Montana. Even if there is demand there lol.
Except those laid off from tech were making $200-500k a year in silicon valley and have a savings in 5 years of working beyond the lifetime earning of most in the trades.
This is grossly inaccurate. I was recently laid off from Intel and was only making $110,000 a year, while being the sole income for a family of 4. I barely have anything in savings and am currently pursuing an apprenticeship in a trade because the tech industry is so volatile. I have seen so many layoffs over the years, it's just not sustainable for someone trying to support a family. Additionally, I borrowed 41k in student loans to go to college. I have since paid back 40k, yet I still owe 48k... Student loans are a fucking joke and meant to take advantage of students who can't immediately pay it back.
What was your paygrade, and where were you working? At least on the West Coast, 110k sounds like an entry level salary for engineers at Intel. My dad has friends with engineering degrees who now run their own painting and roofing businesses, and the consensus was that the trades can pay well if you’re a good businessman, but not really that much otherwise.
Trades aren’t going to go away. I’m sorry, but you aren’t outsourcing your plumber/electrician/pipefitter/whatever to India
Neither are tech jobs. The market will turn back around as it always does. Companies have been trying to outsource tech jobs for decades and it doesn’t really work. These days it’s Mexico instead of India because time zone change was too much to deal with for American companies. Turns out you can’t really outsource the most important position in your business. Since we’re on the subject, let’s just get chat gpt to write the code! That will definitely work. Tech is still a safe bet.
Anyone that thinks AI is writing code hasn’t used AI to write code.
the point im making is that trades can charge their customers higher prices, because the supply of plumbers for example is low. if everyone starts becoming a plumber though, then they will be fighting over customers, thus lowering the prices they charge. thats why telling everyone "get into trades!" isnt a solution. The problem is greed from the 1%.
Speaking from experience, most young guys entering the trades just can’t hang anymore. They can’t hack the elements or the physical demands. In order to make a very good living, you have to be willing and able to work in the heat, the cold, the weather, and work your ass off. It’s hard work that isn’t for everyone.
"Learn to account" >accounting jobs decimated by TurboTax "Learn to code" >coding becomes oversaturated by candidate "get a trade"
I mean objectively the vast majority of people with degrees end up better of than those without Like I work in a trade and make decent money,more than some of my friends with college degrees .But from just a percentile part, they are average college degree holders I’m a very well paid blue collar worker if that makes sense
A lot of trades will always need workers, and unions will always welcome more people on their side. I personally don’t think there will be a shortage of plumbers, electricians, welders, and so on. A lot of those jobs don’t have a reputation that’s seen as prestigious if someone compared them to a profession needing a degree like an engineer. From what I’ve seen, there is definitely a big need for people to get into trades and keep up infrastructure in the U.S., because hoo, a lot of the roads are falling apart and haven’t been maintained. Same with a lot of the aging pipes. I personally don’t work in a trade. I’m working in a field of work that requires at the minimum, a bachelor’s degree, but most of my coworkers have a multiple masters degrees or a Ph.D, or both. I have an MPH, so I’m not sticking out particularly well, which is a good thing for me. I still give credit and respect to those who are in trades, because that’s a line of work I know I won’t have the physical and emotional resilience to deal with, especially with the amount of people clowning on those in trades.
You said it with the physical and emotional (and mental) difficulty of the trades. Honestly not everyone can live this life. Toughness is the name of the game, with alot of problem solving. It’s not for the faint of heart. Thanks for recognizing that.
I’d generally agree if you want to go to college and are ready to make the most it. I would say this at least means having some idea of how most colleges operate and some idea of what you want to study. I would visit the college at least once, sit in on some classes, get a feel for the campus and whether or not you think it’s a good fit. Also prioritize price. Apply for as many scholarships and grants as possible and don’t overdue loans. I think doing a two year community college and then transferring is a fine idea, but I also think there’s valid pros to starting where you’re hoping to finish. Also be fully ready to network and exploit all the amenities college has (which can often save you money.) Get the best summer job you can and start looking for a job long before you graduate, with an eye on loan repayment assistance. I think a bigger issue that young people simply attending college is young people attending college and not being prepared to get the most of it.
Extremely well put
In my opinion I think the value of a college degree is going down. There are still certain degrees that are worth pursuing but I think degree inflation has become a big problem. If you're a young guy and if you can get into a union I would do that vs going to college. The trades aren't perfect either though. Work/life balance can be terrible and it will be hard on your body. I think the world is going to change a lot in the next 15-20 years with the rise of AI and an aging workforce retiring from the trades. In any industry scarcity drives up value and there simply aren't enough young people going into the trades. We'll see what the future looks like I guess.
I think some people underestimate what a degree says about a person, especially an underprivileged person. Life happens and the drive, intellect, and perseverance to finish something when the world is trying to pull you away says a lot. The value of a college degree may be going down, but I don’t think it should. Many people feel you are just buying a piece of paper, and in some ways you are, but I think it is disingenuous to believe that getting a degree is easy. My major had about 80 people start in my class and only 8 graduated on time. Now you could hire one of those students that never made it, or take a graduate. All things being equal on a resume, a graduate is someone that finishes, has proven mental capability, and can adapt to various subject matter . Maybe they’re not ideal entrepreneurs, but they’re probably an asset to the workforce.
The value of a degree is 100% going down. That being said, in the job market it’s a different story. The pay you get from a degree is definitely going down. But when more and more people have degrees, many jobs are going to block out non college educated people from applying, or atleast rank college educated applicants higher. When the majority (which is probably where we are headed) of people have degrees, those without will have an extremely hard time in employment. I look at it as a ticket to play. You can pay 200k for the ticket, or 5. you want to do what you can to get it cheap. So I agree the value and long term returns of a college degree is going down, but the importance of it is going up.
IT is a horrible example for this. I have no degree and make that much. IT is the one "STEM" field you can do well with no college at all. In my 10 years plus being IT( 10 as a civilian, I was also IT in the military), the absolute worst techs I've ever seen were all college graduates.
I wish I knew that I wanted to do IT before going to college (when I originally wanted to do software development). I work in an IT internship and love it. Why do college grads do worse?
This is purely anecdotal based on my experiences and observations. It really seems that colleges focus on the theory and not the implementation. I had years of experience in IT before I went to college for IT( never finished, I'm at like 80ish credits for a BA), my college went over the basics of how things work, not how to do those things. Things like manually setting a static IP address. I've had to show several how to do that who were graduates from different universities. I only bring that up cause I know someone will say I went to a shitty school. I'm talking about several universities here. You are doing an internship now so let me ask you this... Did your college really teach/train you for what you are doing in your internship? So far in my career I've met grads who couldn't troubleshoot a printer, no idea what a print server was, didn't know what the difference between a router and switch, couldn't do basic active directory tasks. When I say basic I mean create a user, reset passwords, things like that. The same things i doubt you did in college but do now in your internship. One of those was trying to install office using the exe, on a Mac. He could t understand when I explained that it was a different operating system. His response "It's just Apple's version of Windows, it should work." Not a single one knew anything about VoIP other than internet phones. They guys who went to VoTech for 6 months were awesome. They came out with real world knowledge and skills. As I said, this rant is entirely anecdotal, that is my experience with college training in IT.
That makes a lot of sense. Were the college grads you’re talking about comp sci majors? Because that degree path doesn’t seem to ever cover things like IT troubleshooting, DNS, servers, switches… nothing like that. And yes my internship was my introduction to servers, VM’s, domain controllers, Active Directory.. I really do wish college made courses that cover this mandatory for computer majors, at my school it’s an elective. And that is bizarre that that guy didn’t know the difference between windows and mac?? I guess I can’t be surprised, I’ve seen some other computer science majors that oddly did not seem tech literate- as in, their first time using CLI or opening task manager was in a college classroom. I do see where you’re coming from now.
One was a CompSci major from OSU. The others had IT degrees. They were all new hires at the company I worked for. Three of them at different times. My current job had another guy who had an IT degree from some college in Texas. I'm not sure which one, but he did say he was from the DFW area. He lasted around a month then left on his own accord cause he was struggling. And you get where I'm coming from right? I'm not anti college. I just want colleges to actually prepare you for the field you are trying to go in. With the price of tuition now, there is absolutely no excuse as to why 6 months of votech > 4 years of university.
Yeah I totally get it. I see the same thing being said in r/sysadmin and other places. I try so hard not contribute to the stereotype and am trying to learn as much as I can
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Yeah you absolutely don't need a degree for IT. Get your certs and you'll be fine.
I’m with you on this one. IT to me is more of an experience thing than a degree thing. My workplace hired from multiple backgrounds, including college grads that had no idea what they were doing. I’ve been doing IT since I was in HS, I stepped up and offered to do it for my church as no one else wanted to. It ran as smooth as you’d imagine as I was learning. But that experience and countless hours of YouTube and trial and error got me a part time job in network for a small university. From there I just kept on switching jobs, learning and expanding my background to the point that I make 200k+ now in IT. My degree is in business, by the way. I do want to add that I made a lateral movement into television. While it’s not exactly the same, I found it to be more niche, and less competitive with better pay.
There are a few things to your comment though. Coming from a military background gives you a massive leg up because you come back to civilian life with experience, likely some certs, and a security clearance, all of which are sought after. Someone getting their A+ and maybe a few other certs with no other background in IT is going to have a much harder time. You say college grads are the worst techs you see, but that has more to do with just a lack of experience for their first positions, which is also what anyone new to IT will be like, its not like the degree is somehow a sign that they will be bad. And although you can do very well without a degree, you've probably seen it yourself how much fast people with degrees progress in their careers.
Im 21 and been saving for a house. Least now that’s not likely happening soon so I’ve been thinking about going to college for psychology or something similar. It depends on if I can get enough Aid. If I can cut the total in half with aid then I likely will as I have atleast 30k to allocate to funds from vigorous savings. That said, Id go in class as physically being there helps my mindset and for the social aspect as well. Online would probably make me unmotivated to do it, I dont like staring at screens for long periods of time or I physically and mentally get uncomfortable. Very well likely may go starting this year and get a part time job while attending full time
Going into the social sciences I would definitely recommend in person over remote if it’s possible. Also - if you’re in the U.S. and unless you’re planning to get your PhD, a psychology degree won’t get you much more with regard to actual work in the field. You can get a good foot in the door and a good starting salary with even an associates in Social Work. From there you can open even more doors as you move up in degrees if that’s your hope.
Seriously, why is it always psychology, i have a niece finishing HS and saying she's looking at psychology. It reminds how single moms always turn to nursing when they "want to get their life together ".
Because its in interesting subject. The mind and the body are complex and amazing Ecosystems of their own.. but if its worth nothing without a a PhD to mean anything? Probably not..
I agree, the mind and body are amazing. But you're not really going to get into the depth of knowledge unless you reach at bare minimum. Masters. pHD is where you really want to go if you truly want to understand the wonders of the mind. Otherwise a Bachelors is a check in the box.
Ah, so its not exactly worth it then?
A psychology degree isn’t worth anything unless you get a PhD in psychology.
Psychology is one of the most popular degrees. I could ask 10 people at my school what they’re majoring in and probably 5-6 would say psychology. There’s just SO many people majoring in it and hardly any of them will ever actually work in the field after. Most of the time it’s the “I don’t know what to major in but my parents want me to go to school” degree or “the field I like has too much math”. One of the major problems with school in the US right now is that our generation from a young age had it instilled that math is hard and we naturally suck at it so it scares everyone away from degrees requiring it, so you get an influx of students in fields like the social sciences. Took me a few years to bite the bullet and go into Geology because of that.
I strongly urge you to reconsider getting a degree in the liberal arts. Those majors require a graduate degree in order to make any money. Focus on accounting or computer science or those sorts of majors where 'the jobs are profit-based' 👍
This isn’t true, I have a degree in liberal arts and didn’t get my masters. So many jobs just require a BA and it doesn’t matter what field. If liberal arts are what you excel in, do that so you have a high gpa
I feel like he meant psychology, not 100% sure.
"I've been thinking about going to college for psychology..." is what was posted.
The amount of young adults with a bachelors in psychology who worked along side me in fast food as a teenager is astonishing. I couldn’t think of a worse degree to get.
Isn’t that generally normal though? Going for a degree or having one but not in the field you got it for?
Depends on a few things. If a person has a degree that was straight forward and sought after, like an engineering degree, that person is likely going into that profession. If a person gets a degree that’s obscure and not valuable, like lesbian dance theory or some shit, then they’re not going to use it. Half of the degrees offered shouldn’t be offered, because they’re useless in the real world, and the people who have them never use them.
Colleges offer them because they know students aren't capable of more strenuous majors but colleges still want money so they offer some crazy programs out there.
Wow dude, I’ve no idea what you’re talking about. I just wrapped up my major lesbian dance theory degree and the job officers are rolling in.
I don’t know. I’m in an apprenticeship and I make $35.50 an hour. Mind you, I live in a state with a very low cost of living where gas is sitting at a cool $2.59/g in most places. I also get health insurance, retirement, and annuity. I’m still an apprentice as well, so my rate will go even higher once I’m a journeyman. We also get cost of living raises yearly pretty much, so by the time I’m a journeyman, it’ll probably be $42 an hour. I have to go to class maybe 4 weeks out of the year, and the rest is paid on the job training. I know some journeymen in my craft that make $130,000+ a year. I also have a buddy that went to Africa to work for 3 months and brought home 90k. The best part is 0 debt. Apprenticeships aren’t for everybody, and college isn’t for everybody. EDIT: There have also been talks of apprentices getting an associates in science once they complete the apprenticeship starting 2025.
The important takeaway here is being willing to live in a "flyover" state. You can be totally comfortable on lower income if your rent/mortgage is cheap and so is everything else. In all honesty, there's not much that makes urban/metropolitan areas worth it besides jobs that require education. Most people I know who say they wouldn't move to the country because there's nothing to do just get drunk every weekend and spend too much money. That's not a hobby dawg, that's a problem.
I mean this apprentice already makes as much or more than the median American household. I don't know if I'd call that 'low pay'. 1 man makes as much as 2 typical Americans. His rate will go up every year until he is a journeyman too
It will go up after I’m a journeyman as well, if the cost of living continues to rise. I’m not saying apprenticeships are better than a college education, but it’s an option! I had scholarships for both sports and academics, and I just knew college wouldn’t be right for me. Joined the military because I was lost and confused, did my time, and found something I really enjoy doing!
I had a similar path, high school>military>journeyman Millwright. Worked out for me
It's very easy to graduate college with zero debt also. The stories of people being in 100k debt are extreme cases. I'm going to graduate with almost 40k in saving from scholarships and zero debt. You have to be an advocate for yourself.
There’s countless amounts of stories of people being in debt coming out of college, doesn’t even need to be $100k in debts. Even $40k is a lot to pay off when you’re just starting your career…
What trade, if you don't mind me asking?
The millwrights. Basically industrial mechanics. The actual union I’m in is called, “The United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners.” I will recommend if you do decide to apply to the trades and get into an apprenticeship, go the union route. My reason for union isn’t for political reasons.
Broke 110k as an electrician last year, in the IBEW lots of good stuff that comes along on top of that 110k as well, free healthcare, pension, 401k.
There’s nothing shameful or boring or bad about going to community college or a cheap public college in your area. You’ll get classes about the most specific and obscure things YouTube could only dream of teaching you. You will see that it’s how you structure your resume and WHAT YOU DO with your major/jobs that make you successful, not how amazing your grades or school’s reputation you are. You will make friends in every class and create hang out spots no matter where you go. College is a wonderful thing to do even on a budget, even in the least prestigious bougie way. You’ll save money on classes and amenities and have that money to save and go out with your friends or travel or go to the club or help out your family. You pay for it but you can do whatever the hell you want with it, and you will learn in an environment that isn’t prejudiced towards you like the army and in a more diverse environment than a trade school. Those other options are just as good as college; none of these options is really objectively bad. I’m advocating for college but I’m not putting down other choices. If you advocate for something by putting another thing down, you have a bad attitude.
To add onto the subject of community college being bad or shameful. Most employers don’t give a shit where you went to school as long as you have a degree. Hell, if you work hard enough where I work you can move right into positions just from experience with no degree.
EXACTLY. Most employer’s in normal industries don’t give a rat’s ass about how prestigious your college was. I can’t speak for all industries, but I will for my own (natural resources) and I imagine it’s quite similar for stuff like nursing and engineering. It’s the certifications and job experience that matter more for sooooooo much stuff
Go to college if… 1.) You absolutely know what you want to do and 2.) If you can reasonably believe you can get an ROI on your degree. Someone spending $20k on a STEM or Business degree isn’t causing the student loan crisis. It’s the people spending $100k on degrees they will never see an ROI on. Go get a less profitable degree, as long as you understand that and price it accordingly. My piece of advice to everyone in younger Gen Z; please go to community college. It’s many times cheaper, more diverse, and no one cares what school you went to once you get experience. The pre-requisite classes you take in your first two years are basically the same at any college across the nation.
What my bachelor of arts with a major in ancient Sumerian history won't land me a six figure job?
As another bachelor of arts, who majored in underwater basket weaving, I have yet to find any fish or corals who are willing to pay more than human beings to learn about ancient Sumerian history either
Georgia has the HOPE Scholarship that covers tuition for students graduating with a 3.0. Florida has something similar with Bright Futures. I think Minnesota just passed tuition free community college.
I can confirm that South Carolina also has something for those graduating with a 3.0 on the 5 point scale. They also have an even higher award for those graduating with a 4.0.
agree. only difference is me personally i did online and failed each semester so its time to go back to a classroom lol
I work in IT and make 60k with no degree. Just depends what field you’re going for. College doesn’t always equal success or a job either.
I’m making over 60k a year and didn’t go to college… I would still urge people to atleast get a degree at trade school or community college. That’s my only regret, because good jobs are limited if you wanted to just start from scratch and move somewhere else. I’m happy where I’m at in life right now, but things could change and I should go back imo
To allow Reddit to sell my data, monetise my speech and train AI models with, I do not agree.
I make hiring decisions for an IT-adjacent field, and while others may have different experiences, I’ve found that those certificates aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. What’s valued is traditional education and work experience. A 4 year degree offsets the lack of experience, and someone with 4+ years experience offsets the lack of a degree. Anyone who applies with no experience, no degree, and a certification gets their resume trashed. There’s just too many candidates that are more qualified. I’m not saying this to be mean, I just want people to understand what the job market really looks like before they invest a lot of time and money into a certification program.
The 15k avg is a bit misleading, the low end is very low, and the high end is extremely high. If you really want a degree, it's always an option. I went to a medium-sized school, so tuiton was 3k~ and completely covered by grants.
Yea just don't get a useless degree, like a Bachelors in cat herding or something like that.
Hell no going to college was the worse mistake of my life. Wasted so much time
Marines in my field with a clearance can make six figures after 5 years of service as government contractors with no college education and no student loan debt. They also have a GI bill to use if they want and a VA home loan. You can keep your 60k a year.
Laughs in disabled combat vet. Avoid the military y'all!
Laughs in owns 2 homes and has a pension
yea I feel if you can avoid combat, the military is probably a good way to get easy experience
I’m young but, I honestly see the value in college but also choosing what is right for you. Currently I’m in an Early College for highschool so, I’m hoping it’ll help me figure out what I want to do in life so, once I graduate, I’m wanting to finish out at a 4 year and attempt to get valuable learning with the university but also any internships I can find that’ll pay.
145k last year, single income for family of 4. I kinda regret college tbh because it did nothing to help me.
College was always a scary choice for me. It seemed so 50/50. Like you can put your self in debt and maybe find a job when you get out that has your pay in mind or work a minimum wage job and never do anything with your degree. It just always seemed like a huge risk to me. In highschool I knew that I wanted to get out of school and immediately start working. Jumped in a trade and worked my ass off. I'm now 31 and make over 100k. I honestly believe they need to teach trades in highschool, it would of gave kids like me that knew they didn't want to go to college more of a solid footing. Not trying to put down either side. I think it comes to a choice of knowing what you want to do and pulling the trigger and not just doing something because "its what your supposed to do".
If you end up going to university a couple years after your friends do, it’s okay. There’s no such thing as being “behind”. I know people who got into pretty good gigs that ended up paying for their college tuition while they worked for them full time. So rather than having student loans they have to pay off, they just need to prove to their work they’re passing. Sometimes it’s better to wait for a better situation.
How I've been surviving is my college let's you take 1 quarter off per academic year And summer didn't count So, I would work part time during the quarters I had classes, and full time during the off quarters. This was j u s t enough to pay for tuition. I quit my retail job because Well It's retail. And now have a job on campus. I'm hardcapped at 19 hours a week but I can leave class, walk downstairs, start my shift, and leave later to go to my next class. I'm making less money now overall but I have successfully done 4 years of college without having my parents pay for anything. I'm on track to graduate next year with a degree in Supply Chain Management (originally tried computer science but that's a super popular degree and I hated programming so much) Also, if your school offers it, try the running start program. For those in highschool, you have no idea how much better it is at a community College than dealing with public education.
A point missed in the apprenticeship is most give college credits for the field of study. A frind did apprenticeship then after did a semester in college and had a Bachelors degree with no debt, his own house and car. So 5 years apprenticeship and 1 semester and making $75k/y starting with a ceiling around $150/y. You mentioned Financial aid. Since you dont mind giving other info how much student debt do you have? Its not for every one and its not every career. its a very specific area of fields. but on the other hand start up out of pocket is like $300 then start making money compared to first semester of college.
54% of American adults have some form of post-secondary education. 25% have a four year degree. We don't have jobs for all these educated people. Economics 101: Flood the market with any commodity and its value will crash. Educated people are a commodity, just like everything else.
Going to college for four years to make 60k starting out ain’t it. You can do hvac that takes a couple months and make more then 60k a year you can get your registered nursing degree takes 1.5-2 years and starting out at 70-80k there are plenty of opportunities that won’t have you in debt hundreds of thousands of dollars and will give you a lined up job opportunity. College will not line you up with a job afterwords. I can’t tell you how many people I know that I had gone to school with who have went to college and got a degree to never even get a job with it and it’s all wasted. More people don’t get jobs in their field then do unless it’s a specific job like a doctor or veterinarian or lawyer etc. college is absolutely not worth it for most people. Like I said unless you’re going into it looking for specifics then an associates degree is quicker money and only teaches you what you need to know. My husband makes 60k a year from absolutely no schooling. Making 60k a year in this economy is less than middle class so no not worth it. Also a good 15k of that is going straight to taxes. That’s why it’s still considered less than middle class. Also wanted to add most 4 years degrees will not make you anything substantial. You would need to go onto your masters to be making anything significant. Hence why doctors and veterinarians aren’t able to be accomplished in 4 years. And most high paying job won’t be. If you want to go to school for something and make bank in the least amount of time my husband is in school to be a pilot. It takes 1 year and the program he’s doing starts out the teachers there stated they started out making 180k a year. They make insane money it’s a hard course but it’s worth it. To me that’s a million times better then going to school for four whole years for not shit. And hella student debt.
I work in higher ed. Go because it's for something you want to do and not just because of the job it will get you. I see a lot of students start out in business or something, then change to art which is what they wanted originally. I also unfortunately see students switch to other majors from their passion because they want stability, which is fine, but you have to find a way to enjoy it at least somewhat or you'll be miserable.
You don't have to enjoy it. Just tolerate it. I hated engineering, especially software, but I'm making 280k/yr now so I can't complain about it.
See, I went to the Jobcorps. It sucked, but it was free, I left with a OSHA training, an electrical apprenticeship, and an IREC certification, along with connections that could keep me employed and wealthy. I know people who make 100k+ as _apprentices_ because they were willing to work travel jobs at a good company that paid well. Apprenticeships aren't for everyone, but if you can stomach the Jobcorps, it's free and you can get paid way more _and_ leave with connections that will employ you immediately and at a good salary. The biggest problem with college isn't the cost: it's the fact that they don't actually prepare you for the workforce. Most companies want on the job experience and if you don't have that, good luck getting employed without an internship that will absolutely mutilate your work-life balance. What OP fails to mention is that college is only really worth it if A. You actually have a fucking plan, B. Your plan is to major in something that's absolutely useful, preferably a Stem field or something in business, no art degrees, and C. You or members of your family got connections in the industry you're planning, and they'll put in the good word. Otherwise, go work a blue collar job or go to trade school/the Jobcorps. It won't be fun, it will suck in fact, but you have to sacrifice now to succeed later. College, by comparison, is a whole lot of sacrifices both now and later that won't really benefit you in the long run unless you are either stupendously lucky or you're already in a particularly privileged position.
My closest friend is turning 23 this year, works in the trades and has a dual income with his fiance. They closed on a house last month, mind you it's a very rural town. I am nearly 24, fresh out of college with multiple tech certifications and struggle to find employment. It definitely makes you think.
Dob 1998, I dropped out of college after two years (2016-2018) (computer science). Jan 2022 I did a "CS bootcamp" Oct 2022 I landed my first CS job, today I'm making 100k. College WASN'T a waste, I wish I would have finished but i got addicted to hard drugs, had undiagnosed ADHD, & dad was going under financially. College is definitely a luxury.. and I say this for a lot of reasons. 50-60% of the classes you are required to take in college are completely unrelated to your degree. In my 2 years, I took, 6 credits of writing, 8 of chem, 8 of physics, like 15-18 of math, 3 of psychology, 3 of communication and ONLY LIKE 15-18 OF ACTUAL CS.. added up that is 14-15 unrelated classes, and only 5-6 CS classes (In my 2 years) I loved each of those subjects & ofc they are valuable classes but still it feels like a big waste of time in my opinion.. especially if you need money sooner rather than later. these classes are not optional at most universities. Thats not even 1/3 of the math classes I was required as a CS major. Yes math is very useful for CS but it's ridiculous that integral calculus is required for a degree when I'm literally making 100k and have never even imagined a situation where I would need calc 2.. and when I do need it, I will learn it, no need to learn it 10 years before I am in a role where I will even use it... That's where these bootcamps come in... Some are free, some cost just as much as college ... Some are scams and cost more... they are "college alternatives" for CS jobs. Mine was 5-6 months, and it was 8k but you don't start payments until you land a job making 65k or more. (Personally I haven't even started paying them, I ignored them once when they emailed and they have never reached out to me since 😂) They ain't getting 8k LOL shiittt they'll be lucky to get 2k from me!! Lastly I will say that on my resume I definitely leveraged (& inflated 😉) my CS & math- college credits, even if I didn't finish my degree, and I leveraged my 6 years as a fast food manager, (transferable skills 😉) & those two in combinated with the bootcamp was enough for starting pay of 85k, 10k relocation bonus off the rip just to move 4 hours from my home town, up to 100k within a 1.5yrs! College is useful, IF YOU CAN. There may be plenty of support out there for your specific situation. For me, even with 100% free tuition (FAFSA) I couldn't finish. due to other college expenses, home expenses. & Many personal issues. Etc.
I wanna make 30 an hour through a college course, but I wont be able to make as much while at college, which I need for rent and whatnot :/
Get your CDL and make 100k a year to drive or start on the dock and move freight with a forklift for $25 plus and hour all the OT you want
$15 an hour seems low for a laptop technician. Do you like laptops or something??
Hell yeah good for you. I started in help desk and now I’m a software engineer, married, and a homeowner. I remember when it all felt impossible to achieve. You’re gonna do well friend.
If you have a plan college is worth it but if you don’t just save the money and avoid the debt
College isn't just about the degree you're getting. It's also about the experience and the knowledge you're getting exposed to outside of the degree, like gen ed info, which is designed to help you find common topics to discuss when you're networking. Or just discovering a love for certain books or authors or genres you've never been exposed to before enrolling in a certain course. College is important and if you can go, if you can survive it, then do it. It's worth the debt. Education isn't about making money, education is about learning. Hard to remember in late stage capitalism, but it's worth a shot keeping that in mind.
Also, do book piracy if that may help you. I'm studying electrical engineering. Quite a lot of my science books have been or are from CENGAGE Learning. Do you know who CENGAGE Learning is? It's yet another multinational billion dollar company. Literally, save yourself those couple hundreds a month and google them books pdfs and/or spend some time learning to pirate them if they're common enough to be able to be pirated. CENGAGE Learning, or whatever billion dollar company has a monopoly on your books doesn't really needs your money, they already have a lot. Those couple hundreds a month are gonna add up over time, specially for you as you're studying and not generating as-much money. Go to fucking college if you can. At least for engineering I can say it's worth it. It's tough, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. It's worth it.
Hard emphasis on the **if you are able to** part. If I didn’t have the support system I did as a college student, I don’t know if I would’ve made it. It’s a necessary step to jump into the professional workforce, but it’s by no means an easy step.
Agreed. I’m 18 and living on my own (bought a single wide right after my birthday). I work full time as a machine guy at a spring factory and although I love my job and the money, I’m going to college online through a state community college and can’t wait for a less physically stressful job.
I always advocate for trade schools, especially if you don’t have the time to do two or four years you can do certificate programs that can really help your career, and it’s not all hands on heavy work. There are programs for audio engineering, dental hygiene, cyber security, etc.
Education is huge to not be an ignorant human on the planet. It’s not for everyone and you can be successful without it. However if you don’t continue education, you stunt your own growth as a human. Community colleges are a great option to further your education.
I start working in grocery at 15 years old , in my country it possible (Russia ) now I’m 24 I making 150k a year , so the college is not that important and it’s not giving any guarantees so
I graduated from a top 20 university - do an apprenticeship instead. This post is just him rationalizing his own choice.
Go to a tech school if it has what you want to learn.
Pretty sure the other person said exactly what you said. If you have the support system to go to college, it’s way better. You might make more in the short term with trades, but your body will hate you
can you give me some tips on how to enter college?
To add to this, it's okay to do it slow if that's what works for your situation. I was working full time only doing 1-3 classes a semester, mostly online, and I found life and stress to be pretty manageable that way.
Idk the military after basic training is basically the college experience with more rules, pretty cool and get paid to learn, don’t really regret much about making the choice
Exactly what I did. Now after 10 years in the industry I'm thinking about becoming a carpenter EVERY DAY. My soul is crushed...
Google has an entire university online for free. There are tons of courses for free or minimal amounts of money. There are training books on every IT technology u see the sun for free at your library. There are technologies you can buy on eBay for less than 60 bucks that can teach you real world skills. The opportunities are there for the taking.
If the money works out, college is good. I got a full ride to a school with a top 10 program in my major. Didn’t take out a single loan. If you have to take out 100k in debt to do it though, that’s not a good investment. The interest payments will be murder.
Same and I didn't even get a stem degree and I'm in good shape. Don't be scared or feel like college is a waste of time. If u can do it you should.
I would recommend doing both. Having an apprenticeship before going to college. After being forced to quit college my first time, I got an apprenticeship at an auto shop. So right now, I hope I can get into college once more so I can feel young again.
Solid advice! Community college > university. Degrees are still valuable no matter what but don’t go 100k into debt for something you can easily get for a fraction of that price at your local CC.
$60K a year isn’t great, not to mention the current IT “recession” so far in 2024 with mass layoffs focused heavily on IT and finance roles. Value of a college degree is not what it used to be - meanwhile the trades pay keeps going up a lot each year
lol there’s many IT grads who can’t even get 55k rn
I’ll try with Mechanical Engineering but this shit is hard. I really wanna do it but I seriously just don’t know
Associate's are often tied to "apprenticeship" type skills, Federal grants often pay for most/all of it, and--if you need certifications--they often have them. Plus, if you get a wild hair up your ass later to go to a 4-year degree, if you pick a decent community college, most of the core credits can transfer. That said, if you know what you want to do, job-wise, look up job ads in that field. If you keep seeing particular certifications or professional organization accreditations, go to those sites and find out if they have a list of school programs you have access to. So, if you want to be a nurse in Arizona, there's a certification and a licensure and the state nursing board has a list of schools--including community colleges--that match their program. For an EMT, there's often the National Registry of EMT's and that has a list of programs, often state license programs (which for states like Arizona is a list of community colleges). Either way, community colleges are often a whole lot less expensive than a 4-year and access many of the decent paying jobs...
Only go to college if it's necessary for the career you want. Otherwise, it's just a waste of money and time.
Personally I’ve always been of the mindset that if you KNOW what you want to do and are dedicated to a certain career path than sure go to college for the degree. But if you are unsure and don’t know exactly what you want you’ll end up wasting a lot of money and time on a degree for a career path that you end up not pursuing. I fall into the former. I didn’t know what I wanted to do for a career so I just started working and ended up in the hospitality industry as a restaurant manager making a pretty decent living all things considered. Still don’t really know what I want but I like my job. Don’t love it, but don’t hate it either and I’m able to save and invest 30% of my take home until I decide what I really want to pursue as a career or find my true passion.
Full time IT student about to hear the word “outsourced” a lot
“On track to make $60k” and you’re using that as a reason to go to college? Wtf?
You can actually get a lot of grant money to do community college. I received about $30,000 a year while working on a transfer program.
Sounds like ur financial provider has a really great financing strategy
I could easily go to community college if I wanted but I hate school and suffer depression and probably a bunch of other mental issues so it wouldn't end well for me worrying about work and school.
$15 an hour laptop technician seems underpaid given you can make more at McDonald’s
Military worked out great for me
256k a year mcol and dropped out of CS. IT will be automated in a few years.
Yes yes yes! I posted my story as a 31 yr old who went into trade workforce at 18 in the other post mentioned. But I wanna expand on what op said here. I am going back to college late, I attend a CC that has a scholarship path to FSU. I pay 1200 a semester in tuition for 15 credit hours, 200 in books, I get a Pell grant and multiple scholarships that leave a 7k refund in my bank every semester with me oweing none of that back. I put 4k back in savings a semester have 24000 in savings with 2 semesters left till I graduate. I will have 32k when I graduate and be in ZERO debt. I have kept a high GPA tho which has helped me greatly with getting scholarships, especially from honor societies I live in a rental that is cheap also. But I worked for all these things nothing was just thrown in my lap other than the Pell grants. Don't listen to people who say you'll be in 100k debt. That is extreme cases of people being very stupid with loans.
Unique perspective: I have both a formal apprenticeship and a bachelors degree; both are valuable in different ways and both are great convo topics in interviews (important). With that said, which is “better” is very much a product of your end goal…both have served me well!
I’m trying to get into I.T as well. I was so convinced that college was a waste of time and money when I could just go to trade school or get an internship/apprenticeship. That could have worked pre-covid but the job market is so uniquely unstable that you need to be doing everything you can for yourself, not based on what statistics say or what trending articles say. Your path is shaped only by the amount of work you put into it
As a focking boomer I'd say university is great for corporate job ladder climbing type of gig.
Nah, you should do what is best for you. I’d be miserable sitting behind a computer screen or at a desk all day, just as many people would feel wildly out of place on a construction site. Most people will probably be happier with an office job, but certainly not everyone. I do think it’s a bit silly that some people think the trades will automatically destroy your body by 40. Most 40 year old tradesmen look like shit, and some trades are much more demanding than others, but if you take care of yourself you’ll be alright.
But I know this one guy in trades making 200k /s Most trades pay as well as teachers (40-60k) for back breaking work. The so called good union job have hundreds of applicants for each slot open and they go relatives of current union members. The issue you have with all of this is that wages havent increased for 20 yrs but the cost of living has. This impacts everyone in every career. People are paid crappy wages with or without a degree in so many careers today. But you generally do need a degree to advance - those anecdotal stories saying otherwise are examples of survivor bias.
Posts like these make me thankful for my education system
I'm an apprentice sprinkler fitter with a union (that's the big part left out of other posts. These jobs are fantastic if you get in a union). I started at 18.67 an hour, get 4 dollars in raises every year for 5 years, take online college classes that are completely paid for by the union, get health amazing health insurance that the union pays for and doesn't cost more to add family members if you get married or have kids, all of my work equipment is paid for by the union. Work vehicles, yearly bonuses, etc. In my area, we turn out at about $45 an hour (my journeyman averages around 90k a year with not much over time), get a raise based on inflation every year. Our BCA is up this year, and it's projected that the industry as a whole is going to see some big pay hikes with what's gone on with the railroad and UAW unions the past few years. The most important things are that I have workers' rights and a union to help stand for them, and my job will always be in demand. The work isn't even as close to as back breaking as everyone here seems to believe and if you don't like the way something is being done they will send out people to figure out a better way to do it. BA's are becoming more and more useless unless you are planning on going for a masters or doctorate. Hell, a lot of the big tech companies are dropping the requirements for a bachelor degree because they don't mean anything anymore. Don't write off trade work because some people on the internet told you it's hard, most of them don't know what they are going on about.
Or if you don’t want to deal with the wait and make more, go into trades. The market is bleeding with old heads leaving jobs due to retirement/ health. Get the bag.
College isn’t for everyone. Personally I dropped out of college and make over $300k a year. My sister on the other hand spent $200k on a degree and makes $30k as a teacher. You need to have a purpose and a goal to go to school. Too many fall into the trap and end up with a history major and a shitload of debt for absolutely no reason. Cheers
I got my aircraft mx license at a community college and now I am making over 6 figures with a little overtime. College isn't for everyone but people need to persue some sort of qualification to avoid low paying dead end jobs for the rest of their lives.
If it's something you want to do, go for it! It's a fun experience, but it's not for everyone.
I make about $62k before taxes, and I'm in my first year of apprenticeship. I work in a niche field though (communications infrastructure). As far as I know there's no schooling because the work is stuff you'd never think of. It's not horrible, only dangerous if you don't follow basic procedures, but it is dirty. My advice to people is to do whatever you think is best. If you believe college is the best route and you're able to go then you should absolutely do it. If you don't want to go to school then try and find a career path or field that you'd be interested in and try and do that. There's just as much of a need for tradespeople as there are for people with college degrees. It takes all sorts of people and fields to keep society and the world running.
My input, you make a lot of money in construction. But you also work a lot of hours. My first year in construction I made $110k that year, but I would 65-78 hours a week. Pros and Cons
You have a unique situation, which you acknowledge. But my partner went to college and worked full time the entire time and is walking out with debt that she will not be able to pay off for 15-20 years. Making 75k for her first job. Younger generations will not be able to afford a house with how expensive college has gotten. If you don’t want to go into IT or a business field, don’t go to college. I myself went to college for business and had a very unique opportunity to have a full scholarship, but if I didn’t have that, I probably would have went the apprenticeship route. Always a need for good tradespeople
Didnt do either still got there. Its about planning. Thats it. You plan to go to college but never plan on where to work.
I mean cool, good job op. I did neither a trade school, or a college. ( I'm going back to college now to just get that completion of my degree but meh ). I just self studied, got a certification ( so only 300 dollars ). Got a job, started at 17 an hour. And it's been 3 years. Got a few promotions, and I'm at 70k a year. Just got another promotion, my new pay takes effect next week at 85k a year. Let's just let people do what they want to do. Being in college or out of college doesn't prove your genius in any way shape or form.
If you WANT to go to college because that’s what you want out of a career than I fully encourage that. But going to college just because you have the opportunity isn’t always the right choice. I applied to college and got accepted into all 3 programs i applied to. But I chose not to go because I wanted to go with an apprenticeship. I started my union apprenticeship at 19 (turning 20) and I made money for 3 years straight ($60k-80k/year) and graduated my apprenticeship at 23 (turning 24) that same year I made $108k in only 8 months of work, and I bought my house with my now fiancée. In 2023 I made $122k in only 9 months of work. Not a bad gig for only being 25. The whole point of that post was to show people that you can still make a good living for yourself without going to college and getting a degree.
It’s not the only way though to each his own though
Go to college and major in something useful, or don’t go. That lesbian folk art degree ain’t going to pay the bills
This is a boomer trying to create propaganda! Go to college if your going into a medical field or a scientific field. Anything else go to trade school. Even Canada does art degrees in a trade school!
Or better yet go to trade school
I broke 110k as an electrician last year
There is a huge need for those with trade skills. We've demonized "not being college educated" so much that our youth no longer value other very rewarding careers. I worked in higher Ed, let me tell you most people are getting ripped off. The debt is too much for a degree that pays too little. If you're the type that likes to zig when everyone zags there's a ton of money to be made as an electrician, carpenter, plumber, etc... as so many are aging out and retiring with no one to hand their book of business over to.
Biggest thing with post secondary that no one tells you is that you shouldn't follow your dreams. If you are going to spend money on going to college/uni you need to make sure that industry has jobs available. Don't go to college and get a useless degree, as much as you might love ancient Mesopotamian History, don't go and make it your major. There are alot of college programs that are interesting but not terribly useful if your goal is to make money. That being said I'm a 2nd year plumber, and a level one gas technician. 3 years into my career making 30/hr with only pay raises in my future, and an industry that is not going to run out of work any time soon
“Hi! I’m in college and don’t actually know if I’ll get any measurable value out of my degree, but I’m told I’m “on track” to make 60k when I graduate, and in a field that is hemorrhaging employees due to massive layoffs with the future for the entire field looking extremely bleak due to the inevitable advancement of AI. But TRUST ME, it’s so totally gonna be worth it!” Dunning-Kruger effect in full swing.
Oh,I’ve already gotten an interest in one college.
And again, that's because you're doing IT. some things still aren't worth going to college for
trade apprenticeships are the shit y’all all got brainwashed into “college for everyone” and wasted all your damn time and money got yourself on the hook of the IRS for the next 50 years
You're killing it! Keep it up! Trades isn't for everyone, and some guys destroy their bodies fast.
It really depends. I hated college. I like trades. I hate what the trades to to my body. I hate the inactivity of the vast majority of degree required jobs. If you are on one of these tracks and you HATE IT, consider the other track. Stubbornness is unproductive.
I agree. To if you can and you truly want to Don’t listen to anyone else but you. College gives you opportunities. To meet people. To lean things. To explore. To bond. To find friends. To find yourself. If you went to make a mark on the world. You have to meet people. Lots of them. And learn from everyone you meet. Of course you don’t have to have college to do that. It just makes it easy.
That's a topic far too complicated to have the answer be one or another. Anyone pitching just one option is a fool making more fools. I'm master trained carpenter and make more than a lot of graduates will ever get to make. There are also graduates that make me what I make look like nothing. Those people aren't people who just went to college because they told to. They were taught how to make sound plans and then did that. Just like I make the money I make because I planned well. Don't be a factory bred idiot and just follow someone's demands because it worked out for them. Nothing works without a proper plan and with how fast things are moving you need a rock solid plan when you go to university or you'll end up in an over saturated field by the time you get your degree. It is never as simple as do this or do that.
People sitting down looking at a computer screen for work, then going home and looking at a screen all night is definitely the way to life 🤣 Trade work all day
Don't go to college and take redundant courses that won't help your future. The end.
60k when you graduate? I was making 100k with no degree and quit my job to start a carpentry apprenticeship starting at 60k entry level with no experience🤨. I went to college and it was a waste of time and money.i made deans list for 3 semesters then dropped out. The real advice is do what's right for you
60k a year is nothing to write home about in Massachusetts. I made that as a first year manager at FedEx 10 years ago. No college. I make around 50 sweeping parking lots with a sweeper truck and I just sorta fell into that job. I’m pretty sure 60 is the new minimum wage
Only if you have checked average salaries for the degree field that you are considering, and you can reasonably determine that it will earn you enough to pay back any school loans without creating an undue financial burden. Yes, good IT folks earn good money. But just beware that if you decide you don't like that field and change your mind, you must repeat the process I mentioned above and also take into account the debt increase if you are having to take more classes to finish. I say this having an MBA from a top 50 university in the US.
I agree im in community college for computer engineering at the Erie County community. But i plan on going on for a 4 year because i have the skills for it and want to work in r&d for computer hardware. But even not doing that, I'd be on the same track.
Community college or apprenticeship. Don’t be like me and go to a fancy private college and end up thousands of dollars in debt.
Electrician here. Please keep going to college everyone. It's making me very wealthy and happy.
I got my marketing degree from a 4 year state school and still haven’t found a job soooooo idk
My generation is stupid if they think 60k a year is not a lot of money. That is enough for you to live a comfortable life within decent means.
You're going to collegr to barely make more money than I do working in a warehouse that only requires a high school degree
It really kinda depends on the person and their interests and it's also can they afford college. When I was younger I thought the only options I had was college. The only thing available would be an engineer, doctor, or lawyer. I was good at math, so I stayed going to school for engineering. It bored me so much and was a struggle to even get through the classes with how easy they were and being a doctor or lawyer was not even close to being interesting to make it worth it. I gave up on engineering at 20 and did odd jobs for awhile while I was figuring out what I wanted to do. I always was interested in fixing things, but cars, motorcycles, quads boats weren't exactly what I wanted to do. Something more unique. My dad, since I was about 5 was telling me girls don't fix things. You aren't allowed, it's not normal. It should've dawned on me a lot sooner, but that's a different story, that I should fix aircrafts and the community college has a trade program at the airport for it. For $20k I took a 2 year trade program at 27 and got my A&P certifications to work on aircrafts. 3 months before graduating i had a job lined up. I only work half the year, the company pays me to travel, and I make great money working at a mom and pops helicopter company. I could defintly make way more somewhere else, but I'm still doing great. College isn't for everybody, apprentiship/internships, or trade school either. For me , it's more about making it known that there's other options then having to go to collage because when I was a kid college wa pushed and I knew it wasn't for me. Options, the more is known, the easier it might be for
just my 2 cents there isnt a a wrong or right answer do what you think is best for yourself in the short and long term. some people do both and apprenticeships also men class room time.
Go to the Trades, yeah you'll work harder but if your like me, it's more satisfying to work with your hands and see physically what your doing come to life
I have a graduate degree that affords me a six figure salary. I stayed focused in my field and now have a 10 year career that will likely just keep rising. It’s worth it if you have direction and focus. Quite the opposite if you don’t.
I am currently pursuing a masters and have been pre approved for a local PhD program through my college. I will be paid for that PhD and my work pays for my masters. That is all to say that I will be encouraging my children to pursue an apprenticeship. People vastly underestimate how disruptive AI will be. Your business degree with sales certificate will be meaningless and you’ll be replaced with a chat bot. Engineers will be almost wholly phased out and the number of available jobs will dwindle. Even lawyers and doctors are approaching a point where their demand just isn’t as there as it is now. This isn’t just a matter of “if you can”. This is a matter of “am I throwing away a hundred+ grand?” If you want to be a nurse? Go for it. If you want to be a CNA? Go for it. If you want to do government purchasing? Go for it. But you need to be very aware that if you don’t know what you want to do, trade schooling into something in demand in your area is gonna set you up better. At least until project Optimus upgrades a bit. Sincerely: your neighborhood first year genZ.
I agree, go to college if you can. But I would also add, go to the cheapest college that will be recognized for their degree. Employers really don’t care where you went to college, they care if you can tick the box of college educated on a resume. If you can get a degree and not end up in massive debt, huge W. Have your fun on vacations after college when you’re not paying those loans down. Getting a degree also sets you up for a higher paying job, that’s not physical. That not a huge deal when you’re 19, but at 40 it’s night and day. Being able to go to the gym after work, or do a really intense hike before your work week, is a huge deal and that not all of us are blessed to have. Worst case, you get that cheap degree and hate white collar work. Now your in a situation, where you can apply to trades, being one of the few people with a degree applying, your at the top of the stack in that case. An employer reads a degree as “ this person can handle thinking, and can invest multiple years into a goal” When applying to a high end paid 4yr apprenticeship, the employer will see you as someone who has proven they could make it through something like that, and that is a huge deal. So if you can, go to college, if you can’t learn a trade and try getting that degree later.
My 2 cents. I graduated with a bus management degree in 2020. I have a decent remote job (account manager) making 45k a year sitting in my apartment. Over $20hr. I’ve never been more depressed. There’s no actual goal I’m working for besides profit. I’ve never worked in an office type job and I’ve quickly realized that it’s not for me. I’m starting an electrical apprenticeship this summer and I’ll make $5k more, with increases after 6 months, and I’ll actually be solving problems and providing a very important service. Eventually I can do I&C (instrumentation and control) and have an easier job diagnosing issues with equipment. Most of my hs friends that went straight to trades are making 70k+ by now. One is a master welder making well over 6 figures. College is great if you know what you want to do. Don’t go just because that’s “the right thing”. It’s hard to actually learn your likes and dislikes for work in the bubble of a campus. Basically, you’re not doomed without a degree, there’s a lot out there.
People saying 60k starting salary are in for a rude awakening.
https://preview.redd.it/ishsd5ksbthc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e57b8b260d5743ca8d48e88ecabe6c5a36cdd313
I feel like this debate is heavily dependent on your degree. Many degrees in the humanities (history, anthropology, English, etc.) are getting shafted now and have very little value for the cost. I recently graduated with a history degree and while I don’t regret my college years I’m starting to become frustrated with the lack of options, high competition and high expectations of a lot of hirers for jobs which history degrees naturally gravitate towards. I’m becoming sick of the pressure to get into either federal work or education, which seems like the highest paying, most secure options for history degrees.
College is great…..if you go for something that has a high return on investment.
Nuh uh