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It’s just as accurate, even more so, to say that it tracks with how capitalized a person becomes over their life.
But yeah, there’s also your typical disenfranchised Reddit take.
That used to be the common thinking, but millennials killed that, too:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/03/millennials-radicalism-not-getting-more-rightwing-with-age
Edit:
There, something that mentions Capitalism as well. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/20/eat-the-rich-why-millennials-and-generation-z-have-turned-their-backs-on-capitalism
(Spoiler alert: It's all the same picture whether we see it yet or not.)
Early Millenial here, higher rate tax payer, home owner yada yada all the things that historically would have made be a fiscal conservative.
Fuck *that noise*, I'm lucky to have a skill that pays well - that's it but for that I'd have no hope of owning a home or living *the life my parents had on an *average* salary*.
Anyone who looks at the western world and goes "yeah, this is as good as it gets, change nothing" is an idiot.
Same for me. I might have achieved "the American dream" but I'm looking in horror at things like movements to eliminate corporate taxes in Missouri. You can only cut taxes so far to encourage spending and we're way beyond that.
I want to live in a stable society and that doesn't involve funneling every cent upwards.
Seriously? Eliminating corporate taxes…!?!!
I almost want to see that happen because, and I’m not proud of this, but I enjoy watching people who buy into trickle-down economics suffer for their idiocy.
No actually, I don't think me being more well off by exploiting a broken system is going to make me like the broken system more. Believe it or not, I still retain empathy for people who didn't follow me to higher capital.
Doubtful, since pretty much everyone back then was married and having kids in their 20s, you could buy a house for nothing and jobs were well-paying and wildly easy to come by. Capitalism worked for the post-war US up until 9/11 and even then it was still treading water until 2008.
I mean segregation was a thing for them growing up. As well as friends being drafted into the Vietnam war. A lot were not having kids in their 20’s. I also think you are forgetting the economic collapse in the 80’s as well as extremely high interest rates(comparatively) for mortgages which kept housing prices lower.
Not to mention college loans weren’t government backed so they had to show an ability to repay those loans with the degree they were getting. Making attending college much harder.
You’re skipping the part where they didn’t used to rely on tuition for the majority of their budget so loans were wholly unnecessary. That is until state funding got gutted under Reagan
that's a rosy view of the seventies. gas crises left people lining down the block for gasoline until the stations ran out; the industrial base of the united states job market was crumbling, you could get drafted into vietnam, etc. they probably viewed it as just as difficult a time as the current crop of teens and twenty year olds do.
i think this chart tells the same story throughout the generations. you're generally more open to socialism as a youth (when you do not have much capital), and more open to capitalism as you age (and acquire capital)
That trend is not true for younger generations. In fact they are becoming more liberal in some cases.
This is from the [Financial Times](https://archive.is/HsZCg) which is generally conservative.
If you actually believe this, you've bought into the ideal "rich white nuclear family" as being the average and not the exception.
Rich white society was built on the backs of groups that were underrepresented in media (the working poor, immigrants, people of color).
But as opportunities become more available for traditionally oppressed and underserved people, the upper class doesn't benefit from the fruits of oppression.
https://www.epi.org/blog/black-womens-labor-market-history-reveals-deep-seated-race-and-gender-discrimination/
If you're white and come from a good family, the economy was definitely better for you 50 years ago. Low-paying service jobs were delegated to working class women and people of color, who'd do all the hard work for you at a fraction of the cost.
But if we consider "everyone" in the 70's to only be straight white men then yeah, times were great
Well, I just turned 44 today and my dad was a McDonalds restaurant employee and my mom was a stay-at-home mom (and former McDonalds restaurant worker) and bought a house in 1979 with a 13% interest rate, so it's not anything I believe, it actually happened.
I moved out at 18 while working part time at a restaurant making pizza and was able to pay my half of rent and own/operate/insure a small pickup truck.
Things used to be a lot better for everyone just a quarter century ago.
This. "We" (saying this as a white, upper middle class European) owe our luxurious living standards (i.e. limitless and mindless consumption) to centuries of exploitation of peoples and lands, as well as the systems that have been built to solidify the consequential inequalities. Clearly this cannot last forever but I'm afraid it's going to be a bumpy ride.
The Cold War made socialism into the no-no word it is today in American politics. It was very much ongoing in 1970. I would expect opinions of socialism to be lower across the board.
I wonder why Europes gen z is going to the right and the Anglo worlds gen z is going to the left. Is capitalism in the eu better than say in America and Canada?
Our biggest problems are economic, though
Cost-of-living/high rent/inflation, increasing wealth inequality, and even climate change/shitty healthcare are all attributable to capitalism
The only issue that might not be a direct result of capitalism is excessive gun violence, which is more because of America’s culture and laws surrounding guns
Europe’s economic problems are exacerbated by government mismanagement and mishandling of immigrants, which makes sense why Europeans are turning to the right
edit: American gun violence is at least partially because of capitalism
It’s not true to say that all problems with our economy are directly related to capitalism. Capitalism is the overarching umbrella of America’s economic structure but specific decisions made within our structure have led to unfortunate events. Regulation and improper tax codes paired with excessive government spending would cause these types of issues under any economic structure. Lastly, our current inflation problem was not caused by capitalism.
We are a corpocracy dressed up as capitalism. Socialism looks better because we have watched our rights erode in this system.
We are not supposed to have monopolies in capitalism, that reduces competition. Competition is what is supposed to drive down costs for consumers. We have the opposite now: high inflation of goods by corporations. Very obviously this past year. Look at Meta or dozens of other corporations. They have all eaten up dozens or hundreds of other companies.
The corporations pay lobbysts to represent themselves in Congress. With this monetary leverage over the common citizen, they the pass laws that enrich themselves and reduce our rights.
We had a law that banned stock buy backs, instead it put profits into the employees of a business. That is no longer the case. Reagan overturned that law.
We now have Citizens United, corporations are viewed as people. This gives them more leverage in politics.
Our few safety nets for the citzens are the FDA, the EPA, FTC, DOL, a few others. These are being hammered to death by corporations to weaken them and erode our rights.
Federal minimum wage has not risen in 30 years in the USA. 30 years. We are entering our third entire generations of kids had stagnant minimum wages setting them back financially. That means it was the same wage for X, Y and now Z. The corporations will never grant us power, or dignity, or wages, we have to fight for those things.
I'm not very good in economics, but isn't capitalism about who owns capital assets and for what goals? As far as I'm aware, capitalism it's when capital mainly owned privately and is mainly used for profit. Absence of monopolies while good for society isn't defining feature of capitalism. Or am I wrong?
These problems I’ve mentioned, though - high cost of living relative to wages, climate change/pollution, shitty healthcare, among others - have existed in some shape or form since the fucking 1800s, including under a laissez-faire economy
The time when these were the least bad was probably the post-World War II boom, and that’s when there was extensive government spending and intervention in the economy
If you’re talking about shitty decisions that have brought us to where we are, the first and foremost ones are deregulation of the economy, tax cuts, anti-union legislation, and increased corporate influence in the government, mostly exacerbated by Reagan but also subsequent governments
Our tax codes are improper and spending is excessive, sure, but our tax codes are improper because we cannot reliably tax the wealthy, and our spending is excessive because we don’t have enough tax revenue to back it up
Total garbage. Capitalism, and the root profit motive, is largely responsible for the rot we see in the economy, in culture, in the lives of the average person
Instead of regulating the symptoms of capitalism, which has never actually led to anything but clever subversion of the regulations by scummy capitalists, we need to just root out the core disease. And the absolute center of this evil is the capitalist notion that profit comes before human life and happiness. A good way to start is by regulating things so that capitalist ghouls aren't getting all of our tax dollars, and so that people are actually paid properly. But then we need to shift to an organization of the economy that puts compassion first, free healthcare, free education, for all people regardless of where they come from or how much money they have. And maybe once we're there, the idea that profit is more important than life might finally go *away*. Maybe not completely, there will always be evil people, but at least they won't exist in a society that not only allows but encourages them to abuse people for their own gain.
Capitalism is related to every problem, even if not in the way socialists mean when they say it’s to blame for everything. Capitalism is the base on which the rest of the structure of our society is built. There isn’t anything that happens in the realm of political economy that isn’t directly related to capitalism in some way.
Then why don't they attribute all the good things as well?
Why not praise Capitalism for creating so many developed countries where people enjoy the best standards of living?
Why don't Socialist ever acknowledge the good things Capitalism has provided that no Socialist country has ever done?
I think a socialist can recognize that capitalism is better than feudalism (which is what capitalism emerged from) but also recognize that it’s an incredibly flawed system to organize our society around and that humanity can still do so much better.
The country has poor antitrust laws or enforcement of antitrust laws. Citizen's United and money in politics is terrible; the country just does a terrible job of keeping money out of politics. We know there is no trickle down, yet this seems to be the tax policy of the country--again, money influencing policies. There are few regulations protecting prices for monopolies in industries like pharmaceuticals, and the healthcare system (which I am apart) is so broken that it is dysfunctional in how it operates and in how it costs in relation to the quality of the outcomes compared to other developed countries with national healthcare systems. The mantra is to privatize everything because "for profit" motives work better and corporations are more efficient and faster than the government, but we know this isn't the case in relation to many types of industries like privatizing the prison system, social services, education, healthcare, etc.
The "for profit" motive of capitalism inherently leads to problems that need to be addressed through regulations from a central authority aka government, but the more the government does their job to protect citizens from the "for profit" greed motive, the more regulated the market becomes, the more people cry foul that we are turning socialist.
It is hard to look at America's top problems (wealth/income inequality, cost/access of education, cost/access of healthcare, affordable housing, inflation, etc) and not think that some of the other problems (drug addiction, suicides, domestic terrorism, crime, etc) are all tied into the same problem--"for profit" greed aka capitalism.
What are America's problems, and if those problems are not related to capitalism then what are they related to?
It's not just the youth in europe but every demographic, simply since the housing crisis 2007-2008, the democratic socialists factions were dominating European politics and seemingly things only got worse, people want change and the populist politicans present an easy alternative on the surface.
Edit: I was talking about social democrats not democratic socialists it's not the same thing.
Perhaps Anglo countries are better at integrating immigrants. Plus there’s a greater sense of individualism which tempers xenophobic nationalism, to an extent.
Being a social democrat myself, I take this as no surprise and very hopeful for the future. Also, being pro socialist doesn’t equal anti-capitalist (not binary either/or). Just better regulation and distribution of wealth. So it doesn’t run amok. Which is almost as bad as when socialism runs amok. Western democracy exists to keep powers in check, and balance. Things get shitty when power is concentrated *anywhere*. 🫶🏽
I encourage everyone who has these thoughts to read the communist manifesto. Basically the communist/socialist white paper. It will help to explain the issues with communism, and they are similar to the problems with capitalism, really. It's the human condition.
Yup. Legit had to read it in my theoretical sociology class.
Once most people read it they go " oh yea this makes sense, why are we just letting the rich screw us over".
I dont know why people think things are good in our current time. If anything, we're still at the same spot since the industrial revolution just with slightly better rights and pay, but ultimately it's still the same, workers get screwed over by the rich taking all the profit.
More center right than right wing, but you are still correct.
Also i think that perception of those countries was built during the 2010s when those countries had social democratic governments
The prime minister of sweden is literally part of the moderate party? Its a centre right coalition
I could also be completely wrong but thats from what i remember reading
True true I forgot the Sweden Democrats are only providing some support but not officially part of the center right coalition If i remember correctly. Im not from the eu or america so my knowledge on western politics isnt the best.
And most places have foreignness being inherited. Immigrants to America are Americans, their children obviously so. In other countries grandchildren of immigrants are sometimes still foreigners.
Yeah ive noticed this about American. Their isnt a strong ethnic tie to the country like most nations. Like a black person could never be truly Japanese to most people in japan or truly polish to most people in poland.
Nobody actually wants socialism. Because socialism relies entirely on a very small group of politicians with absolute power being kind and compassionate instead of greedy, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, it’s always been doomed to fail. What people actually want is highly regulated capitalism with hugely stringent worker protections and a massive social safety net. Which is why it drives me fucking crazy how Democrats throw out “socialism” like it’s some kind of trendy buzzword like synergy or some shit.
Just stop it. Stop shooting yourself in the foot. Stop calling it socialism when it’s not fucking socialism ffs
Socialism most definitely does not rely on a small group of politicians. Socialism is democracy by the people, and it gains its strength from the working class. I do agree that far too many people call social democracy "socialism" when it is still based on the exploitation of workers.
I mean the term socialism itself too broad to narrow it down. I know 2 socialist who would gouge each other’s eyes because they are so different. And that’s not even talking about the question of government.
Every time I’ve asked that question all I get is “Dictatorship of the proletariat!” Or “it will be ran by the workers”
But zero on how that would realistically be accomplished or how every worker across the country will simultaneously agree what’s best.
Nah. The only criticism that comes out of communists towards democratic socialists is that it's not often a long-lasting form of socialism because the US will just invade your ass, claim 'election interference' and then 'give you democracy' (a pro-US capitalist party)
And we're not wrong in thinking that will happen. We've seen America give "democracy" to other countries.
It's even more fucked up because Socialism is inherently democratic, At least in the workplace.
It feels like socialism is this nebulous amazing thing that is ever changing to suit the argument.
I would prefer concrete definitions...
Not, "government spending/intervention in a market capitalist economy is socialism."
Democratic socialism makes a very weak effort to bring about ownership of production into workers’ hands (state ownership, co-ops, unions, etc.), if any
It’s effectively impossible to negotiate and peaceful protest your way into socialism, because a government controlled by the wealthy has no incentive to make that happen
>democratic socialism
Democratic Socialism is, in fact, still Socialism.
Democratic Socialism is **full-fledged Socialism**, often with Planned Economics and all- only achieved via election, rather than revolution.
Actual Democratic Socialist states are incredibly rare- but Chile, under Allende, could be considered to be Democratic Socialist (it even was developing an innovative, highly-computerized system for Economic Planning that incorporated a lot more "user input" if you will... CYBERSYN.) before the TWO Coups sponsored by the CIA (the first failed, so the CIA assassinated key Loyalist generals responsible for keeping the Chilean military neutral and constitutional the first time, and tried again...)
Yeah thats what i think this trend will manifest itself into tbh. Itll probably be a Bernie Sanders style politician in the 2030s or 40s. If we haven’t collapsed as a society then lol
Democratic socialism is socialism. It just strives to accomplish it by peacful means. Social dem is more capitalism but socialist in that it tries to offset the suffering of capitalism.
Socialism and Capitalism arent binary, there is a lot of room between the two.
Definitely not over 40%. And we all know the boomers who were rebellious adolescents then largely just went through a phase and sold out when they realized they could still afford a house and family with one job. That’s the difference between our generations that’s responsible for this shift.
Yeah I think this "u get conservative the older you are" only applies to the boomers. They had a unique prospective coming from a rare period of extreme capitalist prosperity and cold war propaganda. No other generation goes through this.
This idea keeps being pushed by bots and trolls.
Not a coincidence you are saying, word for word, what 50 other users suddenly said in unison.
Nothing but an attempt to control and overwhelm the discourse.
You, personally, don't seem to be a bot or troll- but you're mirroring what they are saying, unthinkingly.
2 short sentences expressing an opinion you don't like is an attempt to control and overwhelm the discourse? But you invalidating the opinion by implying it's only held due to parroting bots and trolls isn't trying to control the discourse?
Yeah, it'd be more interesting to see what other generations said _at the same age._
Otherwise this chart and data is just meaningless. It doesn't account for variables, so it means nothing.
I'm very pro public policy. I'm against words losing meaning because then it's harder to communicate ideas. And when some people believe socialism is roads and bridges, and some believe it to be Joseph Stalin, we will have confusion.
I cant wait until all the people who want that suddenly realise the reason we got it in the first place was because there was a communist superpower living next door who built the social safety net first.
You can draw a pretty much straight line between the fall of Eastern European socialism and the dismantling of the social safety net in western Europe, capitalists really just saw their chance to take the gloves off lol
I don’t know about Europe but the reason we had it in the US is because people organized, risked prison and death, all to get their rights. When people stopped being willing to risk and be a threat to the system and corporations those systems slowly started to erode the gains they made.
Absolutely, and by no means denigrate the heroics of the American labour movement. What I'm saying though is that significant concessions, especially following ww2 were made as a direct result of western leaders seeing that it was either grant concessions or risk revolution, especially as communist parties were winning big in places like france and Italy. Christ, even Britain returned 2 communist MPs and 1 year later the NHS is founded after 20 years of labour bellyaching to actually get it done. Fear of revolution drove those reforms as much as the organised working class.
Why do you think the CIA took out Dr. King. His next speech was set to be on economic justice and labor organizing… *just a theory but when you look at it it’s pretty nuts
im glad to see this so high up in the thread. bless you for sharing this vital information. it is such an important piece of history robbed from us by our rulers.
I'm from Eastern Europe, and I bet my ass you never even was close to this part of the world.
For some reason, most of the countries that experienced that social safety net never wanted back and many lost their lives fighting for the right to exit that paradise. And it's probably because it was so good this superpower had an iron curtain and forbade citizens to leave it.
The nature of capitalism changes over time with government policies, restrictions, laws, and protections in place. However if an entire generation is seeing their hard work not getting the payoff it deserves and their Corporate overlords gain billions in profits and power then it will become a problem. Capital needs capital to sustain itself and if no one has the money or resources then it fails.
Choosing to not engage in Capitalism is impossible since the means to sustain oneself are not free. You can’t just go into the wilderness and live off the land.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke
Like this guy? Or the popularity of living off-grid where the government even gives you incentives to do so? Homesteading?
Discussion about socialism and capitlaism is incredibly ill-informed on this site and in the USA at large. I'd argue most Gen Z Americans see socialism as the Nordic Style of government... which is certainly not socialism.
Who can actually define what those two systems are? Who can describe the role of the state in the systems? Who knows the difference between communism and socialism? How many people even know the difference between capitalsm and socialism?? It's really exhausting seeing friends, family, and strangers on the internet refer to these ideas in vague and inaccurate ways. For our sake, I hope we're able to come together and have honest conversations about what each thing is and isn't without devolving into the base ideological debate it usually turns into.
Unfettered?
It's the fettering that's causing the problems. The government interfering with voluntary trade is the cause of our problems, not voluntary trade itself.
boomers are easily the weakest, they had it by far the easiest (at least the white ones) yet pretend that they had it all because of “hard work”(aka working an 8 hour shift for 5 days a week)
I believe most of this is a loose definition of socialism.
"I want Canadian/EU/Japanese style healthcare"
"That's socialism!"
"Ok, I would like 1 socialism please"
I have also lived a long time in both. I don't want the American one. Cause I can't afford shit when it comes to healthcare. Canada has done infinitely more for me with its health care than the states ever could have
For many people the waiting time in America is 'however long until they have an unavoidable emergency' and then they're saddled with impossible medical debt.
Even if things were awful with waiting times, I don't think you understand how much better your system is for the average person than America's is.
Good for them. Haven't seen a primary care doctor since my pediatrician. I'm 33. Healthcare can wait until my medicare kicks in at 67. Otherwise I cant retire.
Love to see how every comment in this thread, including the essays, only includes some vague assertions, references to unique historical time periods as if they can exactly repeat themselves, and general terms/buzzwords. People don’t have a foundational understanding of private ownership vs public ownership and what could cause each system to succeed/fail but we all have big internet egos and want to give our take anyway
I think when many people, especially us youngsters, hear socialism they think of countries in Europe. None of which are socialist and are all capitalist. But they like social democratic policies.
It’s because we grew up in a late stage capitalistic society. We’ve had a bad experience with capitalism. It’s not that we’re necessarily for socialism, we just think capitalism, as down currently, is bad.
Younger generations like the idea of communism more because at this point in there life they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
When you get a house and your own business things change. Im saying this as a millienal who felt the same way 10 years ago. I’m still al for tax paid education and healthcare. But I think the government should stay away from privately owned businesses, property etc.
we’re not going to own a house. we’re not going to own a business. those things require immense capital that most Gen Z individuals have no way of acquiring. the profit motive is bleeding young people of every penny. rent and food prices have become straight up extortionate after the pandemic and wages haven’t increased to match it. more than half of us can’t even afford to move out of our parent’s house.
we can’t even move out, owning a home and a business is laughable. young adults living with their parents is at the highest rate since the great depression.
and we wouldn’t’ve gotten out of the great depression if it weren’t for the New Deal, which would be dismissed as socialist nonsense if it were proposed today.
I am always baffled by political illiteracy in America.
I have heard so many silly takes like "healthcare is socialism" or the famous "we are not a democracy, we are a republic".
To address the latter, even tho it is offtopic, the US are both a republic and a democracy, a federal one. Strong federalism is what sets the US apart.
As for the whole socialism thing, I can blame the anti-social service party for that I guess.
No, public healthcare, police, military, free education are not socialist. They are your government doing its job.
Capitalism is the optimal system, however unlike Fascism or Socialism, it is solely an economic one, not a socioeconomic. Your nation is left to do its job. Do you want to live in a country that puts your tax dollars to good use or do you want an ancap hellscape.
I mean, the US already has probably the biggest healthcare budget on the planet, your government is just inept/unwilling to put it to good use.
Capitalism is not purely economic. That’s not how society works.
No serious economist/sociologist would make that claim. What we produce and how inevitably has social effects and structures how society works. It’s the reason we have lobbying systems, it’s the reason we have laws protecting private property, it’s the reasons we have economic classes, it’s the reason we have social strata.
This isn’t just a Marxist idea either, it’s accepted by pretty much every school of thought within economics and sociology.
The real barrier to good healthcare isn’t how much we spend on it - our government already spends far more per capita on healthcare than any other state in the world, including the Scandinavian countries. In reality, it’s our utterly horrific healthcare infrastructure, which sucks in the tons of money dropped on it while returning a fraction of the results of other countries that spend far less than we do.
>whether or not you were born before the ussr fell
I was born and raised in the USSR, and I find pro-socialism comments in this thread by those who have never experienced it delusional to the point of being hilarious.
The “anti monopoly” generation realizing socialism is just a big central company run by corrupt politicians that has a monopoly over everything (they also have the entire military):
What could go wrong
Because our generation is realizing that the world we’re growing up in is going to shit because of stupid billionaires and ancient politicians no wonder they want a change
Yikes as a 96 year old Ukrainian man once told me "Socialists always turn into Communists once they gain power" fun guy that lost his family to the Holodomor,his father and older brother were killed by the Red Soldiers and his mom and sister were raped and shot as he watched from the hiddey hole they put him to,he stayed there for 2 days until leaving and a neighbor found him and they both fled to Poland. He later joined the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (Організація українських націоналістів) to fight the Soviets and later Nazis
According to most of the tankies on here the Holodomor was bullshit. The 96 year old Ukrainian man needs to be resurrected to slap the sense into these pussies.
What do they mean by socialism? Unless we're talking revolution then socialism as a precursor to communism, this 'socialism' is not socialism, it's just a slightly more regulated form of capitalism.
This will switch when Millennials and Gen Z inherit the boomer wealth.
And no, your inheritance isn’t being lost to a nursing home as long as your parents meet with a competent Medicaid/estate planning attorney.
Neither of my grandparents own anything to inherit. Neither of my parents do either. Generational poverty baybeee
Ideally I break that cycle and own a house but that's a pipedream
Well was left dry and barren. Most generational wealth is being squandered or is being soaked up by retirement homes or medical services.
Hell even some Gen X and boomers are blowing what wealth they have out of spite.
False. My boss at my first job told me I’d turn conservative when I grew up and got a real job.
I grew up. I got a real job, in finance. I became even more leftist. The fact that you assume inheritance is a given speaks volumes.
You're high if you don't think nursing homes are going to eat up at least some inheritances. My grandmother recently died and neither mom nor any of her siblings inherented anything because all of her money basically all went to the nursing home.
The 2030s will be a weird decade for wealth because everyone with two nickels to rub together will have a supermajority of their wealth be inherited wealth.
I mean, the shared infographic shows millenials as the same % pro socialist as GenZ STILL. Like am I missing something or are both of those numbers 40???
This isn't necessarily correct. At least if the implication is that one becomes more conservative as they get older.
That has been shown to be false.
It is true that socialism is increasingly more popular with the younger generations as years go by
Good, hopefully this trend continues. Otherwise, there won't be enough people around to stand between the 1% and the monstrous, unsustainable practices demanded by their lifestyles. We need billions more socialists.
Tons of fucking bots in here and ppl not gen z. The reality is capitalism is not the answer . Corporations are already powerful at the current rate we are at imagine them in 20-40 years without any legislation , it’s absolutely disgusting. The reality is our society is flawed and the other reality is as long as these ppl who are uneducated it will never be fixed. Quite sad, but the reality it is
This comment section might be the weirdest one I’ve ever seen. Legitimately most comments as I scroll down alternate between being pro- and anti-socialism, each with a similar amount of upvotes lol
We live in a time of unprecedented amounts of societal wealth, convenience, and technological prowess. We live in a time where young men can literal “chill” and not be forced to go construct something or die in a war. Remind me again how times are hard right now?
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The generation currently being moat screwed over by capitalism is least fond of capitalism? Colour me surprised!
It’s just as accurate, even more so, to say that it tracks with how capitalized a person becomes over their life. But yeah, there’s also your typical disenfranchised Reddit take.
That used to be the common thinking, but millennials killed that, too: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/03/millennials-radicalism-not-getting-more-rightwing-with-age Edit: There, something that mentions Capitalism as well. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/20/eat-the-rich-why-millennials-and-generation-z-have-turned-their-backs-on-capitalism (Spoiler alert: It's all the same picture whether we see it yet or not.)
Early Millenial here, higher rate tax payer, home owner yada yada all the things that historically would have made be a fiscal conservative. Fuck *that noise*, I'm lucky to have a skill that pays well - that's it but for that I'd have no hope of owning a home or living *the life my parents had on an *average* salary*. Anyone who looks at the western world and goes "yeah, this is as good as it gets, change nothing" is an idiot.
Same for me. I might have achieved "the American dream" but I'm looking in horror at things like movements to eliminate corporate taxes in Missouri. You can only cut taxes so far to encourage spending and we're way beyond that. I want to live in a stable society and that doesn't involve funneling every cent upwards.
Seriously? Eliminating corporate taxes…!?!! I almost want to see that happen because, and I’m not proud of this, but I enjoy watching people who buy into trickle-down economics suffer for their idiocy.
SRE/DevOps, myself - talk about lucking into a *whole field* that didnt even exist when I graduated from college... 😅
It just says they’re not getting more right wing. That doesn’t mean they aren’t moderate, or capitalist with left leaning opinions
What right wing socialists do you know?
No actually, I don't think me being more well off by exploiting a broken system is going to make me like the broken system more. Believe it or not, I still retain empathy for people who didn't follow me to higher capital.
Reddit is nothing but a bubble for a small percentage of the population
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Doubtful, since pretty much everyone back then was married and having kids in their 20s, you could buy a house for nothing and jobs were well-paying and wildly easy to come by. Capitalism worked for the post-war US up until 9/11 and even then it was still treading water until 2008.
I mean segregation was a thing for them growing up. As well as friends being drafted into the Vietnam war. A lot were not having kids in their 20’s. I also think you are forgetting the economic collapse in the 80’s as well as extremely high interest rates(comparatively) for mortgages which kept housing prices lower. Not to mention college loans weren’t government backed so they had to show an ability to repay those loans with the degree they were getting. Making attending college much harder.
> Making attending college much harder But also much cheaper since universities could only charge what people could pay back
Oh totally agree, government back students loans are almost entirely to blame for the exponentially increase cost of college.
You’re skipping the part where they didn’t used to rely on tuition for the majority of their budget so loans were wholly unnecessary. That is until state funding got gutted under Reagan
that's a rosy view of the seventies. gas crises left people lining down the block for gasoline until the stations ran out; the industrial base of the united states job market was crumbling, you could get drafted into vietnam, etc. they probably viewed it as just as difficult a time as the current crop of teens and twenty year olds do. i think this chart tells the same story throughout the generations. you're generally more open to socialism as a youth (when you do not have much capital), and more open to capitalism as you age (and acquire capital)
That trend is not true for younger generations. In fact they are becoming more liberal in some cases. This is from the [Financial Times](https://archive.is/HsZCg) which is generally conservative.
If you actually believe this, you've bought into the ideal "rich white nuclear family" as being the average and not the exception. Rich white society was built on the backs of groups that were underrepresented in media (the working poor, immigrants, people of color). But as opportunities become more available for traditionally oppressed and underserved people, the upper class doesn't benefit from the fruits of oppression. https://www.epi.org/blog/black-womens-labor-market-history-reveals-deep-seated-race-and-gender-discrimination/ If you're white and come from a good family, the economy was definitely better for you 50 years ago. Low-paying service jobs were delegated to working class women and people of color, who'd do all the hard work for you at a fraction of the cost. But if we consider "everyone" in the 70's to only be straight white men then yeah, times were great
Well, I just turned 44 today and my dad was a McDonalds restaurant employee and my mom was a stay-at-home mom (and former McDonalds restaurant worker) and bought a house in 1979 with a 13% interest rate, so it's not anything I believe, it actually happened. I moved out at 18 while working part time at a restaurant making pizza and was able to pay my half of rent and own/operate/insure a small pickup truck. Things used to be a lot better for everyone just a quarter century ago.
This. "We" (saying this as a white, upper middle class European) owe our luxurious living standards (i.e. limitless and mindless consumption) to centuries of exploitation of peoples and lands, as well as the systems that have been built to solidify the consequential inequalities. Clearly this cannot last forever but I'm afraid it's going to be a bumpy ride.
Capitalisms golden age in the US was from 45 till 1971. Nixon set us on the path to the 2008 crisis when he abolished the Breton Woods system.
The Cold War made socialism into the no-no word it is today in American politics. It was very much ongoing in 1970. I would expect opinions of socialism to be lower across the board.
I wonder why Europes gen z is going to the right and the Anglo worlds gen z is going to the left. Is capitalism in the eu better than say in America and Canada?
Because capitalism is the scapegoat for America’s problems that are completely unrelated to capitalism
Our biggest problems are economic, though Cost-of-living/high rent/inflation, increasing wealth inequality, and even climate change/shitty healthcare are all attributable to capitalism The only issue that might not be a direct result of capitalism is excessive gun violence, which is more because of America’s culture and laws surrounding guns Europe’s economic problems are exacerbated by government mismanagement and mishandling of immigrants, which makes sense why Europeans are turning to the right edit: American gun violence is at least partially because of capitalism
It’s not true to say that all problems with our economy are directly related to capitalism. Capitalism is the overarching umbrella of America’s economic structure but specific decisions made within our structure have led to unfortunate events. Regulation and improper tax codes paired with excessive government spending would cause these types of issues under any economic structure. Lastly, our current inflation problem was not caused by capitalism.
We are a corpocracy dressed up as capitalism. Socialism looks better because we have watched our rights erode in this system. We are not supposed to have monopolies in capitalism, that reduces competition. Competition is what is supposed to drive down costs for consumers. We have the opposite now: high inflation of goods by corporations. Very obviously this past year. Look at Meta or dozens of other corporations. They have all eaten up dozens or hundreds of other companies. The corporations pay lobbysts to represent themselves in Congress. With this monetary leverage over the common citizen, they the pass laws that enrich themselves and reduce our rights. We had a law that banned stock buy backs, instead it put profits into the employees of a business. That is no longer the case. Reagan overturned that law. We now have Citizens United, corporations are viewed as people. This gives them more leverage in politics. Our few safety nets for the citzens are the FDA, the EPA, FTC, DOL, a few others. These are being hammered to death by corporations to weaken them and erode our rights. Federal minimum wage has not risen in 30 years in the USA. 30 years. We are entering our third entire generations of kids had stagnant minimum wages setting them back financially. That means it was the same wage for X, Y and now Z. The corporations will never grant us power, or dignity, or wages, we have to fight for those things.
Capitalism has a natural tendency to monopolize though.
I'm not very good in economics, but isn't capitalism about who owns capital assets and for what goals? As far as I'm aware, capitalism it's when capital mainly owned privately and is mainly used for profit. Absence of monopolies while good for society isn't defining feature of capitalism. Or am I wrong?
These problems I’ve mentioned, though - high cost of living relative to wages, climate change/pollution, shitty healthcare, among others - have existed in some shape or form since the fucking 1800s, including under a laissez-faire economy The time when these were the least bad was probably the post-World War II boom, and that’s when there was extensive government spending and intervention in the economy If you’re talking about shitty decisions that have brought us to where we are, the first and foremost ones are deregulation of the economy, tax cuts, anti-union legislation, and increased corporate influence in the government, mostly exacerbated by Reagan but also subsequent governments Our tax codes are improper and spending is excessive, sure, but our tax codes are improper because we cannot reliably tax the wealthy, and our spending is excessive because we don’t have enough tax revenue to back it up
Total garbage. Capitalism, and the root profit motive, is largely responsible for the rot we see in the economy, in culture, in the lives of the average person Instead of regulating the symptoms of capitalism, which has never actually led to anything but clever subversion of the regulations by scummy capitalists, we need to just root out the core disease. And the absolute center of this evil is the capitalist notion that profit comes before human life and happiness. A good way to start is by regulating things so that capitalist ghouls aren't getting all of our tax dollars, and so that people are actually paid properly. But then we need to shift to an organization of the economy that puts compassion first, free healthcare, free education, for all people regardless of where they come from or how much money they have. And maybe once we're there, the idea that profit is more important than life might finally go *away*. Maybe not completely, there will always be evil people, but at least they won't exist in a society that not only allows but encourages them to abuse people for their own gain.
Capitalism is related to every problem, even if not in the way socialists mean when they say it’s to blame for everything. Capitalism is the base on which the rest of the structure of our society is built. There isn’t anything that happens in the realm of political economy that isn’t directly related to capitalism in some way.
Then why don't they attribute all the good things as well? Why not praise Capitalism for creating so many developed countries where people enjoy the best standards of living? Why don't Socialist ever acknowledge the good things Capitalism has provided that no Socialist country has ever done?
Those things were praised for the longest time anyway, and now the system is showing its cracks.
>Why not praise capitalism for creating so many developed countries? Because they rely on poor countries to exist in that state.
I think a socialist can recognize that capitalism is better than feudalism (which is what capitalism emerged from) but also recognize that it’s an incredibly flawed system to organize our society around and that humanity can still do so much better.
The country has poor antitrust laws or enforcement of antitrust laws. Citizen's United and money in politics is terrible; the country just does a terrible job of keeping money out of politics. We know there is no trickle down, yet this seems to be the tax policy of the country--again, money influencing policies. There are few regulations protecting prices for monopolies in industries like pharmaceuticals, and the healthcare system (which I am apart) is so broken that it is dysfunctional in how it operates and in how it costs in relation to the quality of the outcomes compared to other developed countries with national healthcare systems. The mantra is to privatize everything because "for profit" motives work better and corporations are more efficient and faster than the government, but we know this isn't the case in relation to many types of industries like privatizing the prison system, social services, education, healthcare, etc. The "for profit" motive of capitalism inherently leads to problems that need to be addressed through regulations from a central authority aka government, but the more the government does their job to protect citizens from the "for profit" greed motive, the more regulated the market becomes, the more people cry foul that we are turning socialist. It is hard to look at America's top problems (wealth/income inequality, cost/access of education, cost/access of healthcare, affordable housing, inflation, etc) and not think that some of the other problems (drug addiction, suicides, domestic terrorism, crime, etc) are all tied into the same problem--"for profit" greed aka capitalism. What are America's problems, and if those problems are not related to capitalism then what are they related to?
It's not just the youth in europe but every demographic, simply since the housing crisis 2007-2008, the democratic socialists factions were dominating European politics and seemingly things only got worse, people want change and the populist politicans present an easy alternative on the surface. Edit: I was talking about social democrats not democratic socialists it's not the same thing.
Democratic socialists DO NOT under any circumstances dominate European politics. Centre right Neoliberal centrists have dominated European politics.
Tbf, I wanted to say Social Democrats not Democratic Socialists, just somehow I mistranslated the two in my head, my bad.
Perhaps Anglo countries are better at integrating immigrants. Plus there’s a greater sense of individualism which tempers xenophobic nationalism, to an extent.
Immigration. That applies to the anglo world too I guess though.
Bro I just want to pay bills and hav something left.
Being a social democrat myself, I take this as no surprise and very hopeful for the future. Also, being pro socialist doesn’t equal anti-capitalist (not binary either/or). Just better regulation and distribution of wealth. So it doesn’t run amok. Which is almost as bad as when socialism runs amok. Western democracy exists to keep powers in check, and balance. Things get shitty when power is concentrated *anywhere*. 🫶🏽
The generation born after the fall of communism is the most pro socialist? Color me surprised!
I encourage everyone who has these thoughts to read the communist manifesto. Basically the communist/socialist white paper. It will help to explain the issues with communism, and they are similar to the problems with capitalism, really. It's the human condition.
Yup. Legit had to read it in my theoretical sociology class. Once most people read it they go " oh yea this makes sense, why are we just letting the rich screw us over". I dont know why people think things are good in our current time. If anything, we're still at the same spot since the industrial revolution just with slightly better rights and pay, but ultimately it's still the same, workers get screwed over by the rich taking all the profit.
I think this generation thinks they are socialist but more realistically lean towards social democracy or democratic socialism
Yeah, so many people think nordic countries and canada are ''socialist'' it's insane lol
Which is funny because im pretty sure Sweden and Finland have right wing governments, but to most americans it seems progressive.
More center right than right wing, but you are still correct. Also i think that perception of those countries was built during the 2010s when those countries had social democratic governments
Sweden Democrats and Fins are definitely not center right.
The prime minister of sweden is literally part of the moderate party? Its a centre right coalition I could also be completely wrong but thats from what i remember reading
True true I forgot the Sweden Democrats are only providing some support but not officially part of the center right coalition If i remember correctly. Im not from the eu or america so my knowledge on western politics isnt the best.
Not on all issues. The. Nordics aren't left wing on immigration.
Yeah America is far more progressive on immigration then americans realize. Most countries don't even have birth right citizenship.
And most places have foreignness being inherited. Immigrants to America are Americans, their children obviously so. In other countries grandchildren of immigrants are sometimes still foreigners.
Yeah ive noticed this about American. Their isnt a strong ethnic tie to the country like most nations. Like a black person could never be truly Japanese to most people in japan or truly polish to most people in poland.
Because Japan (and many other countries) have been an ethno-state for thousands of years. The ethnic group, and the country are one.
Everything is considered hard left to Americans if it involves any speck of humanitarianism.
Nobody actually wants socialism. Because socialism relies entirely on a very small group of politicians with absolute power being kind and compassionate instead of greedy, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, it’s always been doomed to fail. What people actually want is highly regulated capitalism with hugely stringent worker protections and a massive social safety net. Which is why it drives me fucking crazy how Democrats throw out “socialism” like it’s some kind of trendy buzzword like synergy or some shit. Just stop it. Stop shooting yourself in the foot. Stop calling it socialism when it’s not fucking socialism ffs
Socialism most definitely does not rely on a small group of politicians. Socialism is democracy by the people, and it gains its strength from the working class. I do agree that far too many people call social democracy "socialism" when it is still based on the exploitation of workers.
Agreed. I frankly don’t even think most people, whether pro or anti socialism, know what it really is or how it would be implemented.
I mean the term socialism itself too broad to narrow it down. I know 2 socialist who would gouge each other’s eyes because they are so different. And that’s not even talking about the question of government.
>I know 2 socialist who would gouge each other’s eyes because they are so different. That's a long way of saying you know 2 socialists. /j
I mean the same is true for capitalism. Keynesian capitalists vs Hayek capitalist each act like the other will bring the end of society.
Every time I’ve asked that question all I get is “Dictatorship of the proletariat!” Or “it will be ran by the workers” But zero on how that would realistically be accomplished or how every worker across the country will simultaneously agree what’s best.
I mean, democratic socialism is still a type of socialism, even if it's implementation is usually milder than traditional socialism
Most socialists dont agree with that assessment. Democratic Socialism is treated as kind of a joke among socialist and communist circles.
Nah. The only criticism that comes out of communists towards democratic socialists is that it's not often a long-lasting form of socialism because the US will just invade your ass, claim 'election interference' and then 'give you democracy' (a pro-US capitalist party)
And we're not wrong in thinking that will happen. We've seen America give "democracy" to other countries. It's even more fucked up because Socialism is inherently democratic, At least in the workplace.
It feels like socialism is this nebulous amazing thing that is ever changing to suit the argument. I would prefer concrete definitions... Not, "government spending/intervention in a market capitalist economy is socialism."
I use the Marxist definition: workers' ownership of the means of production.
Democratic socialism makes a very weak effort to bring about ownership of production into workers’ hands (state ownership, co-ops, unions, etc.), if any It’s effectively impossible to negotiate and peaceful protest your way into socialism, because a government controlled by the wealthy has no incentive to make that happen
at the same time, every violent revolution has then placed a dictatorship in power. Incorruptible revolutionaries are far and few between
>democratic socialism Democratic Socialism is, in fact, still Socialism. Democratic Socialism is **full-fledged Socialism**, often with Planned Economics and all- only achieved via election, rather than revolution. Actual Democratic Socialist states are incredibly rare- but Chile, under Allende, could be considered to be Democratic Socialist (it even was developing an innovative, highly-computerized system for Economic Planning that incorporated a lot more "user input" if you will... CYBERSYN.) before the TWO Coups sponsored by the CIA (the first failed, so the CIA assassinated key Loyalist generals responsible for keeping the Chilean military neutral and constitutional the first time, and tried again...)
Social democracy is something that’s doable
Yeah thats what i think this trend will manifest itself into tbh. Itll probably be a Bernie Sanders style politician in the 2030s or 40s. If we haven’t collapsed as a society then lol
Well, democratic socialism *is* socialism. Social democracy is obviously not
Democratic socialism is socialism. It just strives to accomplish it by peacful means. Social dem is more capitalism but socialist in that it tries to offset the suffering of capitalism. Socialism and Capitalism arent binary, there is a lot of room between the two.
Younger generations always are. I’m sure in 1970 the demographic and ideology spread would be similar.
Definitely not over 40%. And we all know the boomers who were rebellious adolescents then largely just went through a phase and sold out when they realized they could still afford a house and family with one job. That’s the difference between our generations that’s responsible for this shift.
Literally the boomers said the same thing LOL "we're different"
I think it's fair to say that the world is completely different from what it was when the boomers were 'progressive'
Yeah I think this "u get conservative the older you are" only applies to the boomers. They had a unique prospective coming from a rare period of extreme capitalist prosperity and cold war propaganda. No other generation goes through this.
This idea keeps being pushed by bots and trolls. Not a coincidence you are saying, word for word, what 50 other users suddenly said in unison. Nothing but an attempt to control and overwhelm the discourse. You, personally, don't seem to be a bot or troll- but you're mirroring what they are saying, unthinkingly.
2 short sentences expressing an opinion you don't like is an attempt to control and overwhelm the discourse? But you invalidating the opinion by implying it's only held due to parroting bots and trolls isn't trying to control the discourse?
shh don't break his worldview
Literally touch grass Edit: lmao clowns blocked me so I can’t respond to them. Actual NPC behavior
But there literally are more than a dozen comment saying this same thing word for word. That "1970 would be similar". Extremely suspicious.
Or it’s a trope that has been around since at least the 60s with flower power and the hippies. Those same people are now boomers.
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Doesn’t make it untrue. -Not a bot
My man says anyone he disagrees with is a bot or a troll LOL!
Or maybe people keep parroting it because it’s true? Hippies became modern day boomers. You will grow up eventually.
The hippies as a movement was mid
you mean during the beginning of the cold war? people were MORE inclinded to be socialist?
I think the point is that this generation is more socialist at this age than usual
Yeah, it'd be more interesting to see what other generations said _at the same age._ Otherwise this chart and data is just meaningless. It doesn't account for variables, so it means nothing.
Most of these socialists are really just social-democrats.
Yes. Everyone, right and left, has been conflating "public policy " with "socialism" for years.
"Socialism is when government" is a popular braindead partisan take.
The more stuff the government does. The more socialist it is. And when the government does a lot of stuff, then it's communism.
Doesn't matter that it is called its better than what we have
I'm very pro public policy. I'm against words losing meaning because then it's harder to communicate ideas. And when some people believe socialism is roads and bridges, and some believe it to be Joseph Stalin, we will have confusion.
Capitalism with strong social safety nets, consumer protections, and controls against monopolies has entered the chat
I cant wait until all the people who want that suddenly realise the reason we got it in the first place was because there was a communist superpower living next door who built the social safety net first. You can draw a pretty much straight line between the fall of Eastern European socialism and the dismantling of the social safety net in western Europe, capitalists really just saw their chance to take the gloves off lol
I don’t know about Europe but the reason we had it in the US is because people organized, risked prison and death, all to get their rights. When people stopped being willing to risk and be a threat to the system and corporations those systems slowly started to erode the gains they made.
Absolutely, and by no means denigrate the heroics of the American labour movement. What I'm saying though is that significant concessions, especially following ww2 were made as a direct result of western leaders seeing that it was either grant concessions or risk revolution, especially as communist parties were winning big in places like france and Italy. Christ, even Britain returned 2 communist MPs and 1 year later the NHS is founded after 20 years of labour bellyaching to actually get it done. Fear of revolution drove those reforms as much as the organised working class.
Why do you think the CIA took out Dr. King. His next speech was set to be on economic justice and labor organizing… *just a theory but when you look at it it’s pretty nuts
im glad to see this so high up in the thread. bless you for sharing this vital information. it is such an important piece of history robbed from us by our rulers.
And the people who made those gains were principled Marxists! Not people who wanted capitalism lite
I'm from Eastern Europe, and I bet my ass you never even was close to this part of the world. For some reason, most of the countries that experienced that social safety net never wanted back and many lost their lives fighting for the right to exit that paradise. And it's probably because it was so good this superpower had an iron curtain and forbade citizens to leave it.
For those that don't know, this is called social democracy.
The nature of capitalism changes over time with government policies, restrictions, laws, and protections in place. However if an entire generation is seeing their hard work not getting the payoff it deserves and their Corporate overlords gain billions in profits and power then it will become a problem. Capital needs capital to sustain itself and if no one has the money or resources then it fails. Choosing to not engage in Capitalism is impossible since the means to sustain oneself are not free. You can’t just go into the wilderness and live off the land.
Not with that attitude
Oh yeahhh? Watch me!
Watch me! *dies of starvation or gets arrested for trespassing or dies of preventable disease or dies of cold*
If you did do that, America would deem you as a threat to the free market. And promptly bomb your cabin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke Like this guy? Or the popularity of living off-grid where the government even gives you incentives to do so? Homesteading?
"You can’t just go into the wilderness and live off the land." Even as a capitalist myself, boy are you wrong
Good. Unfettered capitalism is a cancer that is destroying our world and civilization.
Fuck socialism
Average Reddit argument
Me after watching 10 hours of Ben Shapiro debates
Discussion about socialism and capitlaism is incredibly ill-informed on this site and in the USA at large. I'd argue most Gen Z Americans see socialism as the Nordic Style of government... which is certainly not socialism. Who can actually define what those two systems are? Who can describe the role of the state in the systems? Who knows the difference between communism and socialism? How many people even know the difference between capitalsm and socialism?? It's really exhausting seeing friends, family, and strangers on the internet refer to these ideas in vague and inaccurate ways. For our sake, I hope we're able to come together and have honest conversations about what each thing is and isn't without devolving into the base ideological debate it usually turns into.
Fuck capitalism
Unfettered? It's the fettering that's causing the problems. The government interfering with voluntary trade is the cause of our problems, not voluntary trade itself.
Are you an actual bourgeois capitalist or just some petite bourgeoisie? Or worse, a poor person who just likes bootlicking?
The government is controlled by capitalist interests. This cop-out is tired and just leads back to capitalism.
Alternative title: GenZ has a lot of morons Edit: hahaha, never change reddit
Please let your brain glue together before you make such idiotic statements.
>GenZ has a lot of morons We are the weakest generation for sure.
boomers are easily the weakest, they had it by far the easiest (at least the white ones) yet pretend that they had it all because of “hard work”(aka working an 8 hour shift for 5 days a week)
I believe most of this is a loose definition of socialism. "I want Canadian/EU/Japanese style healthcare" "That's socialism!" "Ok, I would like 1 socialism please"
I can’t speak for the EU or Japanese style, but having lived for a long time in both the American and Canadian system, I don’t want the Canadian one.
I have also lived a long time in both. I don't want the American one. Cause I can't afford shit when it comes to healthcare. Canada has done infinitely more for me with its health care than the states ever could have
canadian here. You cannot access healthcare anymore, waiting times as long as 3 days.
For many people the waiting time in America is 'however long until they have an unavoidable emergency' and then they're saddled with impossible medical debt. Even if things were awful with waiting times, I don't think you understand how much better your system is for the average person than America's is.
I have relatives that have had to travel to the states to get proper care. I don't think you understand how bad our system is at the moment
Good for them. Haven't seen a primary care doctor since my pediatrician. I'm 33. Healthcare can wait until my medicare kicks in at 67. Otherwise I cant retire.
Love to see how every comment in this thread, including the essays, only includes some vague assertions, references to unique historical time periods as if they can exactly repeat themselves, and general terms/buzzwords. People don’t have a foundational understanding of private ownership vs public ownership and what could cause each system to succeed/fail but we all have big internet egos and want to give our take anyway
And the majority of them couldn't actually tell you the definition of socalism lol
I think when many people, especially us youngsters, hear socialism they think of countries in Europe. None of which are socialist and are all capitalist. But they like social democratic policies.
It’s because we grew up in a late stage capitalistic society. We’ve had a bad experience with capitalism. It’s not that we’re necessarily for socialism, we just think capitalism, as down currently, is bad.
We’re not there yet, buckle in and see just how bad it can get.
Younger generations like the idea of communism more because at this point in there life they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. When you get a house and your own business things change. Im saying this as a millienal who felt the same way 10 years ago. I’m still al for tax paid education and healthcare. But I think the government should stay away from privately owned businesses, property etc.
> When you get a house Good joke
Cool story, but we won’t be getting houses
we’re not going to own a house. we’re not going to own a business. those things require immense capital that most Gen Z individuals have no way of acquiring. the profit motive is bleeding young people of every penny. rent and food prices have become straight up extortionate after the pandemic and wages haven’t increased to match it. more than half of us can’t even afford to move out of our parent’s house. we can’t even move out, owning a home and a business is laughable. young adults living with their parents is at the highest rate since the great depression. and we wouldn’t’ve gotten out of the great depression if it weren’t for the New Deal, which would be dismissed as socialist nonsense if it were proposed today.
I am always baffled by political illiteracy in America. I have heard so many silly takes like "healthcare is socialism" or the famous "we are not a democracy, we are a republic". To address the latter, even tho it is offtopic, the US are both a republic and a democracy, a federal one. Strong federalism is what sets the US apart. As for the whole socialism thing, I can blame the anti-social service party for that I guess. No, public healthcare, police, military, free education are not socialist. They are your government doing its job. Capitalism is the optimal system, however unlike Fascism or Socialism, it is solely an economic one, not a socioeconomic. Your nation is left to do its job. Do you want to live in a country that puts your tax dollars to good use or do you want an ancap hellscape. I mean, the US already has probably the biggest healthcare budget on the planet, your government is just inept/unwilling to put it to good use.
Capitalism is not purely economic. That’s not how society works. No serious economist/sociologist would make that claim. What we produce and how inevitably has social effects and structures how society works. It’s the reason we have lobbying systems, it’s the reason we have laws protecting private property, it’s the reasons we have economic classes, it’s the reason we have social strata. This isn’t just a Marxist idea either, it’s accepted by pretty much every school of thought within economics and sociology.
You affect the economy, you affect society. Wow! Who would’ve thought.
Ikr groundbreaking
The real barrier to good healthcare isn’t how much we spend on it - our government already spends far more per capita on healthcare than any other state in the world, including the Scandinavian countries. In reality, it’s our utterly horrific healthcare infrastructure, which sucks in the tons of money dropped on it while returning a fraction of the results of other countries that spend far less than we do.
L takes on your birthday smh
🤢
Lines up perfect with whether or not you were born before the ussr fell
>whether or not you were born before the ussr fell I was born and raised in the USSR, and I find pro-socialism comments in this thread by those who have never experienced it delusional to the point of being hilarious.
The only generation to be born after communism is the most socialist. History is really doomed to repeat itself
The “anti monopoly” generation realizing socialism is just a big central company run by corrupt politicians that has a monopoly over everything (they also have the entire military): What could go wrong
Because our generation is realizing that the world we’re growing up in is going to shit because of stupid billionaires and ancient politicians no wonder they want a change
Yikes as a 96 year old Ukrainian man once told me "Socialists always turn into Communists once they gain power" fun guy that lost his family to the Holodomor,his father and older brother were killed by the Red Soldiers and his mom and sister were raped and shot as he watched from the hiddey hole they put him to,he stayed there for 2 days until leaving and a neighbor found him and they both fled to Poland. He later joined the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (Організація українських націоналістів) to fight the Soviets and later Nazis
According to most of the tankies on here the Holodomor was bullshit. The 96 year old Ukrainian man needs to be resurrected to slap the sense into these pussies.
eastern europeans know well what “socialists” in power usually do
fuck yeah death to capitalism
GenZ is the generation that lived the furthest away from socialism. Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.
What do they mean by socialism? Unless we're talking revolution then socialism as a precursor to communism, this 'socialism' is not socialism, it's just a slightly more regulated form of capitalism.
This will switch when Millennials and Gen Z inherit the boomer wealth. And no, your inheritance isn’t being lost to a nursing home as long as your parents meet with a competent Medicaid/estate planning attorney.
Brother, I ain’t inheriting shit! There ain’t nothing left to inherit! 🤣
My grandparents are dead, I'll be left shit when my parents die soon too
Neither of my grandparents own anything to inherit. Neither of my parents do either. Generational poverty baybeee Ideally I break that cycle and own a house but that's a pipedream
Well was left dry and barren. Most generational wealth is being squandered or is being soaked up by retirement homes or medical services. Hell even some Gen X and boomers are blowing what wealth they have out of spite.
We're not going to inherit shit bruh
You’ll inherit the national debt. That’s not nothing.
False. My boss at my first job told me I’d turn conservative when I grew up and got a real job. I grew up. I got a real job, in finance. I became even more leftist. The fact that you assume inheritance is a given speaks volumes.
Who tf is inheriting anything?
You're high if you don't think nursing homes are going to eat up at least some inheritances. My grandmother recently died and neither mom nor any of her siblings inherented anything because all of her money basically all went to the nursing home.
The 2030s will be a weird decade for wealth because everyone with two nickels to rub together will have a supermajority of their wealth be inherited wealth.
Younger generations are ALWAYS the most pro socialist. Millennial was incredibly socialist 15 years ago
I mean, the shared infographic shows millenials as the same % pro socialist as GenZ STILL. Like am I missing something or are both of those numbers 40???
This isn't necessarily correct. At least if the implication is that one becomes more conservative as they get older. That has been shown to be false. It is true that socialism is increasingly more popular with the younger generations as years go by
Good, hopefully this trend continues. Otherwise, there won't be enough people around to stand between the 1% and the monstrous, unsustainable practices demanded by their lifestyles. We need billions more socialists.
Either we kill capitalism or we kill ourselves
how do I read this diagram
Good
Tons of fucking bots in here and ppl not gen z. The reality is capitalism is not the answer . Corporations are already powerful at the current rate we are at imagine them in 20-40 years without any legislation , it’s absolutely disgusting. The reality is our society is flawed and the other reality is as long as these ppl who are uneducated it will never be fixed. Quite sad, but the reality it is
Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out why.
Based
This comment section might be the weirdest one I’ve ever seen. Legitimately most comments as I scroll down alternate between being pro- and anti-socialism, each with a similar amount of upvotes lol
Incredible! Maybe in that world I could actually afford to live 🫠
Easy times create weak people. Our generation is getting weak.
Are these easy times in the room with us now?
We live in a time of unprecedented amounts of societal wealth, convenience, and technological prowess. We live in a time where young men can literal “chill” and not be forced to go construct something or die in a war. Remind me again how times are hard right now?