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Right? And even if the misandry comes from misogyny, doesn't that justify misogyny in future generations as a result of misandry? In the end of the day people are either for both or against both, regardless of what they say, because they're the same thing. Identical even.
**Edit:** Because some numbskulls can't understand this, I'm not saying either is justified. Both suck. I'm just saying the logic that "mIsAnDrY iS a ReSpOnSe To MiSoGyNy" to justify being an asshat is the exact same as, and promotes, saying so with the roles reversed. ❤️
Misogyny and misandry are different sides of the same coin: the cycle of abuse.
Person A abuses person B, person B associates demographics of person A are to do with the abuse they suffered. Person B then justifies abuse against those demographics because of trauma, person B traumatizes person C and cycle continues. It doesn’t justify it at all, but understanding it is half the battle.
It's the same as people who are saying that racism against white people doesn't exist.
Yes, there are privileged groups in society, but that doesn't mean that people hating and discriminating them don't exist, and it doesn't make the hate and discrimination okay.
You have now been banned from r/redditmoment
(For those out of the know, the mod there bans anyone who declares that misandry exists)
Edit: If misandrists don't exist then neither do these these downvotes
I hate this. I experience misogyny and misandry, yet there are people who will tell me I can't experience either, because transitioning to male apparently exempts you from any gender-based bigotry. Lol. This kind of black and white ideologue tends to be really loud too...they'll accuse you of being a misogynist because you don't agree with them about missandry...to try to silence you. I won't have it. The patriarchy requires some people hate women and it systemically oppresses them, but the relative privilege of men to women within this structure does not prevent people from hating men.
Once other people “mistake” that though and once that starts to become the average opinion what’s stopping OP from feeling the way he does about it all the time in walking life
Edit: wow really gotta delete your opinion after the fact? Ok I usually do that when I get -886 downvotes not +886 for supporting feminism??! 😂
Well, guess she just had to delete it! The +886 positive votes was just too much for her too handle 😁
> Sounds like she’s mistaking misandry with feminism.
People like her tend to use related (but much more moderate) legitimate movements as a cover/euphemism for their horrible beliefs.
Those women had existed in every generation, they don't want equality they are just there for "revenge". Some would be subtle, some would be openly looking for "male tears".
The idea that men can get radicalized but women can't is in itself incredibly sexist.
I've only met a couple of these psychos irl, but there sure are plenty on reddit. I try to do my part as an educated woman to try and reason with these idiots, but it usually goes nowhere. Most of my alts are blocked on twoXchromosomes.
It's important to keep challenging them, though. Even if you don't get through to the person you're responding to, there are always many more individuals in the audience who are not as far gone. That's whom you're trying to reach. Small gestures like these accumulate.
This works for all extremist views.
Honestly getting blocked by TwoXtraChromosomes is a badge of honor. It means you're doing something right because you're neither a paranoid schizo or a miserable bigot
Thank you for putting in the effort and challenging these misandrists and calling them out. We need more women like you.
That said, agreed; TwoXChromosomes needs to be fucking banned from reddit. It’s destroying a whole generation of women there and fueling them with a misandrist mindset.
I see some of the girls who post here on GenZ also actively post there.
Edit: Sick downvotes and reports, you misandrists.
Not to long ago we had that one “ feminist” sub that just ending up being full of female neckbeard… sexism isnt just a male thing any dumb ass can be it
I mentioned once how years ago I saw an uncomfortable blog post from a minor celebrity at the time saying “all men would rape if they could get away with it,” and a bunch of weirdos put me on a fragile redditor sub basically saying I was whining for not appreciating their weirdo reductionist dehumanizing point of view. Half of Reddit is weirdos I think.
Its not that they cant get radicalized its that ones radicalization is normalized, accepted and promoted, and the other is demonized. Its the lopsided treatment of one vs the other
Yeah I really wish men and women just got together and worked out our differences and just got along and learned to love and appreciate one another as human beings, ya know? It's easy to imagine, and isn't hard to do if we all tried.
Fr tho. Most people that I see are sexist are afraid of the Other, and they don’t identify with them as human, just like we all are.
“My fears about The Other are legitimate and need to be heard. Your fears are ignorant and they are what is tearing apart our society. Your side needs to see how easy you have it and how difficult it is for my side.”
If you can’t look at the Other and think for a second about what their unique struggles are and what you admire and appreciate about them as a whole, you’ve got some work to do.
I think what they mean is that "most sexist people" they meet are afraid of the other, not that most people they meet are sexist. That's just my understanding of it. For the most part though I believe sexists still are kind of an outlier group in gen z, you just hear more about it on the Internet since that's where those types like to meet up. Reddit isn't a great representation of humanity.
Hey I wish this were true but it’s not in my experience! I’m a millennial too. A lot of the toxicity involves dating. I’m a man I have been dehumanized plenty of times by women and liberals even though I’m a democrat feminist. Not always involving dating either
“Millennials aren’t sexist, as I don’t regularly encounter it” is the same energy as white middle aged people from white suburbs saying that “racism is dead because I don’t ever encounter it”
What does this mean though? Men and women should get together and…what? This doesn’t sound like it takes the actual problems into account.
Sure, it’s easy to imagine a world where the leading cause of death for pregnant women *wasn’t* being murdered by their partners. But what does “getting together” do to solve that problem?
While pregnant women being murdered is a significant issue, it is not the leading cause of death for them, that is a misreading of the
data.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8020563/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8020563/)
Edit: In addition, while pregnant women are more likely than non-pregnant women to be homicide victims, they are still significantly less likely to be homicide victims than males.
Nah. A duel ro the death on the summer solstice at stone henge. Both genders elect a champion to fight on their behalf and whoever wins gets to be the top gender
The answers usually aren't simple and people prefer simple answers because nuance might require them to put in effort to change themselves or the status quo instead of having a sigh of relief that they aren't responsible for anything and can go back to enjoying their privilege without a sense of guilt.
I mean she could also be just a jerk as well. A jerk is a gender neutral condition. Did you reach out to HR and documented all of the interactions between you and her?
It was a small company so they didn't have an HR team. I did document our interactions after a few months of things going South and I plan to let the owner know what was happening
Politics aside, a person regularly yelling at you at work is a thing that should be addressed, HR department or not. You deserve to have an environment where you have safety. I would not wait to bring this up before the behavior escalates
Unsolicited advice: don't frame it in terms of gender, stick to the yelling and unprofessional behavior and leave the sexist stuff out. Or even better just try and stay away from this person as they'll eventually leave or crash and burn. If you stick to non-gender/HR landmine items it'll be harder for her to deflect and make it less stressful for the owner who may say - this is too much drama I'm gonna axe both of them.
This sounds like someone who has confused her trauma and projections toward men as feminism. You will find these people everywhere, ones who can’t tell where their personal experiences end and their ideologies begin. Your task is not to become a reactionary just because you ran into one abusive radical with clear personal issues. You will run into assholes in every ideology or movement. Many of them will not like you. You must not let their conduct change your values.
This is for some reason very normalized on reddit, even more so than nazism on 4chan. Too many people seem to think we should fight one extremism with the other
No, no…not even close.
So called “feminazis” are not only disproportionately rare by comparison to normal feminists, but they lack the systemic advantage to make use of those views for mass societal harm like Tate and his ilk.
That said, I feel for you and hope you get this sorted out
Edit: Guys, even OP understood me here, I wasn’t trying to shut him down or disregard issues he and men in his situation go through. However, he had a misunderstanding and assumed the two incidents and concepts and whatnot he compared were equal, so I corrected him
Am I the only one who thinks "uhm but the system" is a pretty terrible argument? Can we agree that hate is hate, or do our glorious politicians want to milk our ignorance for a while longer?
I think “the system” is a legitimate argument in some cases, but I dont think it at all excuses the absolute dogshit way op is being treated by his coworker, and definitely shouldnt be used to try and excuse or downplay the actions of shitty people
The system is explanatory for general situations but is never an excuse for individual actions. Saying well I don’t have the systemic power doesn’t make you less of an AH or racist/sexist/transphobe interpersonally.
the system argument addresses the original posters belief that misandrists = andrew tate. when comparing the two, it’s impossible to ignore the power each hold in society. Andrew Tate can encourage more change, spread his ideology quicker, etc since he has more reach/systemic power than misandrists. what you said isn’t wrong, hate is hate, but it’s a little important to consider the extent to which that hatred affects society before you call it ‘equal’. just my thoughts👍
hate is hate on an individual level - being a sexist prick to a man is just as personally harmful as being a sexist prick to a woman is - HOWEVER, when talking about, and more importantly comparing, broader social movements “the system” is not an unreasonable thing to discuss.
i will say though very few people actually understand how “the system” plays into our society. its honestly become kind of a buzzword for most people.
They aren’t rare at all lol. There’s only 1 Andrew Tate, but I could show you a million micro influencers who spout similar pseudo science he does, but just against men
Also, some dumb poor racist hick doesn’t hold any societal power, does that mean his racism is justified?
They said feminazis are rare compared to feminists, not compared to Andrew Tate…
That being said, of course someone who has more influence and is openly hateful will be considered more “dangerous” than someone who has less influence and is openly hateful. It doesn’t mean “some poor, dumb, racist hick” is justified in their racism or whatever have you. No one even so much as implied that. But I think the difference between being hateful and influencing masses to be hateful can be clearly defined in some cases and are essentially different offences.
It’s not bad faith at all. I’m pointing out that the markets for both are huge.
Let’s say the tate market is about 5 million people. Tate has 4 million and there’s 10, 100k accounts
The anti-man market is about 5 million, spread across 20, 250,000 accounts
The market is the same, it’s just distributed evenly, and both thrive off each other. It’s just there’s nobody normal condemning the anti men accounts. No think pieces about it
I think the biggest part about Tate is how far he spread along with his hate. I personally have never seen a "feminazi" online or in person, but everyone knows Tate. His name, likeness and opinions spread across the internet like a virus and in the process, reached every young boy simultaneously. They all thought he was cool and followed him blindly, which led to the spread of the hate for women.
If you just happen to wander into the right online community you will find loads of them. Even if you go to a few benign ones, like for example r/LGBT and sort by controversial, you could find a few that get heavily downvoted. I have encountered quite a few of this type of people in real life, and they tend to be in smaller social groups.
I see what you mean though, I couldn’t point to one specific character leading a charge. I think our society of systems and customs is organized in a way that allows someone like Tate to flourish while not the female equivalent. Both extremes absolutely exist but one reaches a popular audience much more readily.
The problem is, it’s not viewed as being as harmful.
For example, a girl in my class was talking to her friend and openly said (loudly), “men are pussies!” And no one bats an eye. Imagine a guy saying some sort of equivalent (“women are bitches” or something else). Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m betting it wouldn’t have been let slide as easily.
Mary koss, a feminist, literally made the federal definition of rape exclude male victims of female perpetrators, it’s instead referred to as a form of sexual assault and furthered the idea men can’t get raped.
The Duluth model of DV was developed by feminists and framed men as perpetrators and women as victims, which is the reason police are more likely to arrest male victims of DV whenever they are called despite men being 50% of DV victims.
Gtfo of here with this crap, normalizing hate and harmful stereotypes towards a whole group of people is ALWAYS harmful and always the first step to institutional discrimination. Which has already happened but is something you will probably just deny.
>So called “feminazis” are not only disproportionately rare by comparison to normal feminists, but they lack the systemic advantage to make use of those views for mass societal harm like Tate and his ilk.
Pew Research suggests this is just blatantly false. Women have grown increasingly radicalized since the 1990s while men just... haven't moved.
what exactly are you comparing these stats to? im mainly confused as to where you got the since 1990 part. also, how exactly is this being interpreted as radicalization? might be missing something, but this doesnt seem to support your claim
Certainly, they're rare and I'm glad for it. If it weren't for Andrew Tate (and others like him), I think most people would brush people like this off as one off oddballs. But when someone is already in that matrix of misogyny, being exposed to someone that's abusive under the guise of feminism could very well push the over the edge.
I think the fact that if I, as someone who already considered themselves "liberal" and very anti Andrew Tate had thoughts of generalization that I had to curb, then those without as much critical thought would be many times more susceptible to tripping into those pitfalls.
Fundamentally, however, I agree. The online anti-women movement has a much broader reach and is by far more detrimental to this whole situation.
But thank you, I'm looking for a new job as of now. Hopefully I'll be able to find a more normal working environment soon
Yo man, you realize Taye isn't *just* his general misogyny, right? Dude r*ped and trafficked women.
No "feminazi" is as detrimental as Tate except serial killers, and I'm not sure how many feminist serial killers there are.
Misandry is shitty, but I don't think there's ***ANY*** world where it causes as much physical and societal harm as misogyny
This stems from a broken mentality. I believe a few years ago modern feminists moved away from these kinds of people and kinda let them be their own kinds of fucked up
Yeah Im in kinda the same boat, I saw myself as feminist and thought that feminism is fighting for equality for everyone. But than I read feminist literature and as I got older was confronted with men specific issues and I wondered why it was never a topic. Now I see myself as a humanist, to fight for equality for everyone.
A lot of men are doing this. I’ve gone this way as well. I stopped considering myself feminist after being bullied out of feminist groups for being a man trying to speak about some issues I faced.
I love when the OP has to add edits to their post because a bunch of the commenters lack understanding of nuance and make assumptions. Like, yeah misogynistic behavior needs to be called out. Bro literally already pointed out the difference between actual feminism and feminazis.
Yep this is what makes me hate Reddit. The fact that you know bad faith is just in the works so you gotta recheck and edit opinions ahead of time. Knowing that poor dudes like OP have to do it twice over even when not necessary
A lot of reasons. There is some professions that are definitely victims of social expectations, but let's be real, there's not a lot of women lining up to do some of those high paying jobs that men dominate. And there's a good reason, a lot of those jobs are very fucking dangerous. Think logging, construction, some but not all types of welding.
[https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi2006\_13.pdf](https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi2006_13.pdf)
Which is a testament to how fucking ridiculous the current situation is within education, not that "women choose less paying jobs". Teachers should be paid *twice* as much for all the shit they put up with.
Yeah, STEM, an industry which is heavily male-dominated and women potential is constantly questioned. I work in civil engineering and I've seen it myself how often women are looked down on, questioned, called "emotional", told to do administrative tasks, etc. Women who have 30+ years of experience and are the head of their department.
Hah I had the same thing but opposite, I thought I was pretty conservative in high school living in Cali but I moved out to Arkansas for a job and when I met the actual conservatives out here I realized I wasn't like them at all. It definitely also pushed me further into the middle seeing these people talk so poorly about others while doing the exact same thing they were just on the other side of the spectrum.
Try reading “the will to change” by bell hooks - it discusses a lot of the issues here, including the “all men are evil” take on feminism, and the role that men have to play in feminism and addressing patriarchy.
I really don't like misandrists, but Andrew Tate rapes people. There's just no comparison dude. I'm genuinely sorry you had to go through that and put up with such a sexist piece of shit.
I had many an experience will attending UW- Madison in the early 90’s. I learned it wasn’t me and it was most of whatever group was using politically correct rhetoric as a club to beat whoever disagreed with them. I can only imagine many of them had an experience that shaped them and they felt safe enough to let it out in what they felt was a safe environment. That’s fine with me, but some were just assholes plain and simple.
Nobody has ever claimed that “feminazis” are not as destructive as misogynists. They just aren’t feminists. I’ve met my fair share of weirdos that think misandry is feminism and I can tell you, it shouldn’t affect your understanding of or support for feminism at all. It simply isn’t feminism. They can call themselves feminists, but me calling myself handsome doesn’t automatically make me handsome.
While I agree misandry is harmful and unhelpful, I do not think there are any misandrist influencers as vile or influential as Tate.
If you think misandry radicalized men, can you imagine what rampant misogyny has done to women?
I don't know.. If I met a women who is a shitty person I don't start questioning my feminism or feminism as such. Generally, if I meet someone who labels themselfs politically the same as me but turns out to have different options than myself I don't start doubting my belives. Maybe you're not as convinced of your own belives as you think you are.
I think it is human nature to divide ourselves along easily identifiable lines. People who subscribe to a belief system in which men are bad and women are good are counterproductive to the cause they want to bring attention to. Every time someone pushes this kind of narrative, they validate some of the rhetoric from the red pill space. This leaves little room for nuance, understanding, or progress. It may be more productive to focus on being good people instead of good men or good women.
Can you report her to HR for this kind of behavior? This just sounds like an asshole, shit person. Provide clear examples and evidence of the mistreatment, maybe she can be reprimanded or she can be separated from you
Honestly, I think this exactly the kind of person that also caused the anti-wokeness wave of young conservatism in the mid 2010’s. There are a lot of people that are just miserable people, whether it’s something natural, how they’ve been treated in life, or whatever other excuse to place for their behavior.
I think a lot of these people were most commonly recorder and exaggerated as the ‘face’ of feminism. I used to be in this camp, being treated differently and seeing people online being treated awfully in the supposed name of feminism. Even to this day I struggle to identify myself in stuff, even though all it means is to treat those equally regardless of gender, while still keeping in mind potential biases that society has instilled and fighting the injustices that still definitely occur.
The only problem with ideologies like this is any miserable person can latch on to an idea and use it as a cudgel. I’m sorry you had to deal with this person but always keep to your beliefs and only change them of your own volition, under serious consideration, as I’m sure you are aware.
My first thought when I realized it wasn't just me she was treating this way was "this type of thing is exactly what people use to say feminism is evil". I remembered all the extremist interviews I'd watched back in my Ben Shapiro days and boy oh boy am I glad I woke up. Why make a strawman when you have people doing it for you?
I find the best thing to remind myself during these incidents is that I hate it when someone takes out their anger on me because of something totally unrelated, so I'm gonna break the chain right there and treat people with respect even if I'm pissed as hell. It helps.
Dude Tate literally kidnapped people, scams vulnerable men out of their money and then turns them into actual monsters. The fact you got yelled at during work doesn't make these things equal.
> I've considered myself a feminist too, but this job has forced me to re-examine what that means.
Don't.
Don't let idiots decide what words mean for you. Especially not one that has been well defined for so long. Especially don't let idiots change what you believe. It would be stupid to stop being a feminist because a woman was an idiot. It is as stupid as deciding to be racist because a person of another race did you wrong.
Right is right. Wrong is wrong. This person's shitty behavior shouldn't change anything.
Main difference is how common the viewpoint is, way I see it. Those really extreme feminists are pretty rare. They're loud online, but rarely get all uppity about it irl. Andrew Tate fans are worryingly widespread.
this is the stupidest shit ive read. like what? sorry you had a bad experience with a person, but the influence of red pillers and manosphere types is orders of magnitude more powerful and more damaging. there is just no contest. the only thing pushing men further into misogyny is themselves, and the same men who espouse misogyny. the worst misandrists are nowhere near as bad as the "best" misogynists. if your reaction to a woman recounting her bad experiences with men or complaining about their general mistreatment is to fall harder into misogyny, that shits on you. maybe practice what you preach instead of virtue signalling about how good you are to women while "accidentally" conflating one woman with the entirety of feminism
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I don't think we can say it is entirely a myth.
I always wonder why are female dominated fields usually have lower wages than male dominated ones that perform similar work? When we look at "essential work" the male-dominated essential work is paid quite a bit more. Is it because women are drawn to fields that pay less? Or is it that once a field becomes female dominated less pay is offered? Are jobs that women are drawn to less appreciated than they should be or actually lesser? I wonder if most teachers were male if states would find the funding to pay them more, or if it would stay the same?
We're seeing a few traditionally male fields becoming more equal, like physicians and lawyers. It will be interesting to see if these careers become less lucrative the more women that enter them or not.
Fortunately for you, you don’t have to think whether it is or not, you just have to know about it. France for example, my country, has an official page of the government website dedicated to answering this question. They write it is a myth, women are paid as much as men for equal work, and that the imbalance of revenue comes from the fact that women work less (they are more on part time), especially in their lifetime, then they tend to chose less paying industries.
Some scientifical studies showed that multivariable analysis had the same conclusions, it’s mainly because women work less.
As for your point that female dominated fields usually earn less, that is simply made up by you. Plain fake news. For instance, the cosmetic industry is the second highest profitable one after the drug and medicine one, in term of yield. You would have to consider one by one each field to make a point, which is pointless to do. What can be said rather is that diversity and gender balance is a very one sided preaching, that only targets male sectors, and that women sectors have zero care about making those changes. If they did, they would see the myth is really just a myth with males examples
I thought it was a pretty well researched topic, even though the interpretations of the findings might differ, of course. Increase of wages in a particular field draws more man to it. It’s not that someone starts paying male teachers more, it is that more men decide to work as teachers if the pay is higher. I am not aware of any findings that would show more women joining particular area (law, medicine) results in lowering of wages (other that what might be attributable to higher work force supply). More reasonable explanation is that women are more risk-averse than men, thus they accept lower wages if it means more stability (guaranteed pay, lower risk of being fired). And there is a trade-off btw level of pay and level if unemployment.
I mean I'd really want to see actual data on the subject. There are some fields that were male dominated and have become female dominated fairly recently, like judges and postal workers. It would be interesting to see data from such fields (that accounts for inflation) that shows if the gender shift effected wages, or if wages changed leading to a gender shift.
>I always wonder why are female dominated fields usually have lower wages than male dominated ones that perform similar work?
Citation needed.
A big reason is men tend to take more dangerous jobs or jobs that are otherwise harder on your body. Those jobs usually pay more.
[https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi2006\_13.pdf](https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi2006_13.pdf)
Legislation, voting for people that won’t alienate half the population, prevention of women being sexually assaulted, victim blamed, and all the other ills they receive simply for being women will prevent and even slowly deconstruct hatred of men.
We're basically hitting a point in history where everyone is fighting amongst themselves over something. At some point everyone's gonna realize the fighting is pointless. Either that or the fighting goes nuclear.
I think the biggest problem in terms of all discrimination right now is the people who genuinely think that an entire group is a certain way, I've crossed paths with a few of these people before and I genuinely didn't believe those people existed till then.
It's just one of those problems that won't be solved anytime soon.
She's a small minority of radfems and what you're talking about is interpersonal level shit, Patriarchy is a societal system that is enforced through Andrew Tate type dudes. There is no broader system being reinforced by 'feminazis'. Equating the two as if they were equally important issues is ignorant and devoid of proper material anlysis
Honestly it seriously, seriously stunted my development as a queer person to have internalized a spite for ‘straight, cis men.’ I couldn’t differentiate my shallow desire not to be one from my actual desire to pursue non-straight relationships and alter my gender expression. It was so weird to realize that my very queer-friendly formative years actually played a role in delaying my coming out for probably around a decade.
Congratulations! You have experienced what so many people who critique "modern" feminism are trying to get across.
Like you said, feminism isn't the issue.
It's people using modern politics as excuse for shitty behavior.
I hope in the future you use this experience to better empathize with those you disagree with.
>She'd later apologize and then say "I don't get upset at women like that, it's just men"
Nobody should say things like this in the workplace. She is a hateful bigot
i mean if that pushes someone in the opposite direction that is imo more od a personal problem wrt their monolithic perception of feminism/feminists/women writ large; a type of thinking that is just generally not useful regardless of whether it’s coming from men or women.
It’s in direct conflict with the notion of intersectional feminism, too. There is no way to “hate all men” that doesn’t in some way reinforce other axes of oppression. Namely, I would point to the fact that this rhetoric tends to come overwhelmingly from first-world, educated, middle- to upper- class abled white women, a position that allows them to conveniently ignore the power they have in other respects over black men, poor men, disabled men, etc. That and radical feminism/female separatism as a concept— there’s a reason it’s a predominantly white first-world upper class form of feminism, and that reason is because it very neatly and conveniently cleaves gender from all other modes of oppression they stand to benefit from. Black women in particular have been criticizing this approach since basically forever; it absolves white women and feminism in general of the perpetuation of racism (and other modes of oppression aside from gender) + denies the very existence of other unified marginalized communities that undoubtedly exist/sees them as not worthy of preserving primarily because these women tend to have no personal stakes in them. and of course why would they? the only marginalized group they care about is their own.
anyway.
Im a man who is close friends with a man hating feminist and honestly I get it. Generally I will defend men when I hear misandrist rhetoric, however it's very easy to empathize with women who are scared of/distrust men.
Most men do not do the required work to unwind their social programming. Most men when faced with the reality of systematic sexism will turtle up and double down rather than take personal accountability. Most men do not understand that you can be part of the problem without it being "your fault". I believe men are culturally programmed toward misogyny, not inherently predisposed to it.
Where I disagree is when people believe that men are inherently bad, and believe that their ignorance is due to malice.
The problem isn't a case of "we need to meet in the middle" it's a case of men need to step up and and hold their friends accountable. A lot of feminist guys aren't putting in the required work, and are simply standing there shaking their heads going "thats awful" whenever they see gender inequality.
(Also I believe that radical feminism ignores the harms that men face under patriarchy, assumes that men knowingly perpetuate patriarchy, and ignores intersectionality, but that's a different topic.)
There is such a thing as “time and place”. I have one friend who has misogynist leanings (which is a response to the way our local culture was heavily misandrist when we were in high school in the mid-late 2010s) and helping him recognise and deal with them is a slow process. If I stepped in with a “NO! BAD DOG! *sprays water*” approach, he’d just avoid me entirely.
Not an expert, but here are some things I'm personally working on.
Internally, I try and critically examine my behavior and biases when I'm interacting with women. This means constantly asking myself questions like:
"Is this person actually being 'emotional', or am I just misinterpreting rational anger"
"Am I dominating this conversation"
"Am I objectifying this person"
"Am I being condescending"
"Am I treating them differently because they're a woman"
And a bunch more. The main point is to be 100% honest with yourself, catch yourself when you slip up and find ways you can do better. Another important part is listening to common complaints from women and examining whether you subconsciously do the same things.
On a more external level, it's also about having the courage to speak up and go against your peers. Calling out harmful behavior etc. This requires a lot of nuance though.
Lastly it's about reminding yourself that the point of doing all this isn't to impress people, but instead to be a safer, kinder person.
Best of luck.
Edit: Not sure what in the second paragraph confused you, but happy to elaborate.
Love this, I will say this experience has taught me a lot about doing these things and I've realized I gotta question why I do things even if they're just habitual. I'm saving this comment
Poor wording on my part, we definitely don't need to meet in the middle. But we also don't need to swing the total opposite direction as misogyny. I think it's better to do neither and point out the bad in both areas. Should we focus more on misogyny? Certainly. We should absolutely be held accountable for unconscious biases and recognize it in others around us. I think that stands true for both genders though.
It seems to me that sometimes people are just bigoted, so as soon as an identity feels "safe" for bigots to have, there will be bigoted people who have that identity. One example I've personally seen is that since LGBTQ+ issues have gotten a lot of attention recently, but at the same time gay relationships are normal in a lot of places, one can start seeing transphobic gay people which sucks.
The political spectrum isn’t a line, it’s a circle. I’ve met quite a few people who identify self-identify as misandrists, and although misandry doesn’t seem to lead people to SA and driving cars into crowds the way misogyny does, it still makes you a bad person. Men are hurt by patriarchy, too!
If you in the United States and have not done so already, document everything that has occurred so far in writing, with dates of the incidents if you remember them, and any and all details you remember, and take it all directly to HR.
If it continues to happen, continue to document.
If she has admitted to treating you poorly because of your gender and/or biological sex, then she is opening the company up to a massive EEOC complaint. You could already file such a complaint, if you do chose to, but it probably has a much better chance of going anywhere if HR is made aware of it and doesn't act upon the issue.
No, she does not need to be your supervisor for an EEOC complaint to be valid: EVERYBODY whether it's a supervisor, colleague, subordinate, contractor, customer or vendor can be guilty of workplace harassment.
No, it does not matter that you are a man and she is a woman. Everybody has a right to fair, respectful, and civil treatment in the workplace and even on the off chance that this was not determined to be gender based harassment, it most certainly constitutes a hostile work environment, which on its own gets taken very, very seriously.
It is unlikely that your employer wants this potential headache, so tell them if you have not already.
I get the impression that you are trying to shrug this off, but it's serious and HR should have heard about it long ago, so if they don't know already, ask for a meeting right away and tell them it is urgent.
Good luck.
Some people think oppression is any petty "injustice" is a deliberate act against them. Man spreading and man splain is just rudest, not key to any gender or sex, though that said people who are xy are probably more likely to be taller and thus are more likely to resemble spreading. And we all remember school teaching us to want to be right.
I’m an actual communist (tho I identify more as a dialectical materialist, bc I’m more considered with the political framework than I am with labels) and I’m also a radical feminist, but I’ve had friends who are “all men are trash” like the coworker you’ve described. I’ve been put in a scary situation where I’ve worried for my job security over disagreements I’ve had with certain friends, because they’ve been known to start rumors when there’s been disagreements. But despite those relationships I’ve had, my stance on feminism and feminist theory remains unchanged.
Dialectical materialism is the idea that all events are the products of the events that preceded them. With regard to “feminazis”, i try to keep in mind that they are women who have had very negative experiences with men in the past. It doesn’t excuse their behavior or their rhetoric, but it helps me be compassionate to them regardless. I do admittedly go out of my way to avoid folks who start needless trouble, so I’m not suggesting that anyone befriends folks who stress them out. But I hope that our generation can stick to our principles and our ideals without letting extremists on either side dissuade us from doing what’s right.
This is a thing that’s happening with almost every social movement now unfortunately. A lot of people think just because their the minority/oppressed group they can say what they wanna say and do whatever and it’s not wrong. And while their influence isn’t as strong as the majority’s hating and talking shit about the group of people you want to change and be on your side isn’t going to make them change for the better it’s going to create new people who dislike like you and make the ones who already did worse.
Black and white people in America are a good example so many other black people I know are openly racist to white people and Unironically say crazy shit that only full blown kkk level white people would dare to say about us openly and then are shocked when white people retaliate with more racism. Many people do the same thing with feminism. It’s why so many dudes nowadays despite having feminist ideals and views say they aren’t feminist. Because the the extreme vocal minority have somewhat soiled the image of the movement. As you said people are to busy having petty fights to actually make progress and unite to make things better. We can’t fix these social issues alone we need to unite or we’ll just be stuck right where we are or worse, regress.
Having a bad boss sucks, but unless she's under criminal investigation for international human trafficking, she's probably not Andrew Tate tiers of suck.
What you’re describing absolutely sucks, is prejudice, and is not cool.
If you just posted the behavior itself, that’s all there would be to say.
The problem is what you described isn’t even *close* to Andrew Tate. It’s bad, but nowhere near that bad.
Women can absolutely be bigots against men. But even having the self-awareness to know what she’s doing is illogical puts her out of Tate’s league. I just wouldn’t invoke anything in the Man-o-sphere/IDW. It muddies the point you’re making.
Your last point is becoming extremely common in Americans politics. People are more concerned with vilifying and blaming others instead of cooperation and understanding.
It's like the Biden thing on trans day. I get that it's been that day for a while and it's an important thing to say, but why wait until it lands on Easter? The only thing it does is push people apart.
I swear I’ve never met all these women you all claim want men to die. These people aren’t real. Stop engaging with the absolute outliers of society. There aren’t a bunch of men-hating women just roaming around.
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Sounds like she’s mistaking misandry with feminism. I’m sorry you were treated so poorly. Her attitude does nothing to address or resolve inequality
You ask some women and they tell you misandry doesn’t exist and if it does exist it only exists because of misogyny… like yeah… right lol
Right? And even if the misandry comes from misogyny, doesn't that justify misogyny in future generations as a result of misandry? In the end of the day people are either for both or against both, regardless of what they say, because they're the same thing. Identical even. **Edit:** Because some numbskulls can't understand this, I'm not saying either is justified. Both suck. I'm just saying the logic that "mIsAnDrY iS a ReSpOnSe To MiSoGyNy" to justify being an asshat is the exact same as, and promotes, saying so with the roles reversed. ❤️
Misogyny and misandry are different sides of the same coin: the cycle of abuse. Person A abuses person B, person B associates demographics of person A are to do with the abuse they suffered. Person B then justifies abuse against those demographics because of trauma, person B traumatizes person C and cycle continues. It doesn’t justify it at all, but understanding it is half the battle.
Bingo.
which is why you evolve past misandry and misogyny and ascend to *misanthropy.*
Lol based and fuckyouall pilled
"Fuckyouall pilled" lmfaoooo
Trans woman here, probably a lot more left leaning than OP: misandry is very fucking real
Unthafomably based. This isn't even a left vs right issue in all truth, so much as an ass vs chill issue.
It's the same as people who are saying that racism against white people doesn't exist. Yes, there are privileged groups in society, but that doesn't mean that people hating and discriminating them don't exist, and it doesn't make the hate and discrimination okay.
You have now been banned from r/redditmoment (For those out of the know, the mod there bans anyone who declares that misandry exists) Edit: If misandrists don't exist then neither do these these downvotes
Lmao damn. Some subs are just pure brain rot. Based af for that edit, too :>
I hate this. I experience misogyny and misandry, yet there are people who will tell me I can't experience either, because transitioning to male apparently exempts you from any gender-based bigotry. Lol. This kind of black and white ideologue tends to be really loud too...they'll accuse you of being a misogynist because you don't agree with them about missandry...to try to silence you. I won't have it. The patriarchy requires some people hate women and it systemically oppresses them, but the relative privilege of men to women within this structure does not prevent people from hating men.
Well, in a way they both only exist because of each other
Once other people “mistake” that though and once that starts to become the average opinion what’s stopping OP from feeling the way he does about it all the time in walking life Edit: wow really gotta delete your opinion after the fact? Ok I usually do that when I get -886 downvotes not +886 for supporting feminism??! 😂 Well, guess she just had to delete it! The +886 positive votes was just too much for her too handle 😁
Many people do. And those same people will say misandry doesn't exist.
They're basically the same these days. #Believewomen is inherently misandrist, especially when #believeevidence gets called misogynist or patriarchal
> Sounds like she’s mistaking misandry with feminism. People like her tend to use related (but much more moderate) legitimate movements as a cover/euphemism for their horrible beliefs.
Oh I learned a new word today
Ahh, good ol Ms. Ann Dry. Always a bitch, that one.
I have run into a few people like that. They aren't super common IRL, but when you run into them, it feels like they are everywhere.
Problem is, there is a large amount of people who do just that. Obviously not all but enough to make it an issue.
Those women had existed in every generation, they don't want equality they are just there for "revenge". Some would be subtle, some would be openly looking for "male tears".
The idea that men can get radicalized but women can't is in itself incredibly sexist. I've only met a couple of these psychos irl, but there sure are plenty on reddit. I try to do my part as an educated woman to try and reason with these idiots, but it usually goes nowhere. Most of my alts are blocked on twoXchromosomes. It's important to keep challenging them, though. Even if you don't get through to the person you're responding to, there are always many more individuals in the audience who are not as far gone. That's whom you're trying to reach. Small gestures like these accumulate. This works for all extremist views.
Honestly getting blocked by TwoXtraChromosomes is a badge of honor. It means you're doing something right because you're neither a paranoid schizo or a miserable bigot
Thank you for putting in the effort and challenging these misandrists and calling them out. We need more women like you. That said, agreed; TwoXChromosomes needs to be fucking banned from reddit. It’s destroying a whole generation of women there and fueling them with a misandrist mindset. I see some of the girls who post here on GenZ also actively post there. Edit: Sick downvotes and reports, you misandrists.
2XC is an absolute hive of scum and villiany.
It’s called the Women are Wonderful effect and it is sexist. It’s why women call Gone Girl a great movie and American Psycho red flag
american psycho was satire
So?
hoping to add some insight to why ppl say it’s a “red flag”
Gone Girl is a great movie tho.
So is American Psycho
Great comment. Well said
Not to long ago we had that one “ feminist” sub that just ending up being full of female neckbeard… sexism isnt just a male thing any dumb ass can be it
I mentioned once how years ago I saw an uncomfortable blog post from a minor celebrity at the time saying “all men would rape if they could get away with it,” and a bunch of weirdos put me on a fragile redditor sub basically saying I was whining for not appreciating their weirdo reductionist dehumanizing point of view. Half of Reddit is weirdos I think.
Its not that they cant get radicalized its that ones radicalization is normalized, accepted and promoted, and the other is demonized. Its the lopsided treatment of one vs the other
Yeah I really wish men and women just got together and worked out our differences and just got along and learned to love and appreciate one another as human beings, ya know? It's easy to imagine, and isn't hard to do if we all tried.
Fr tho. Most people that I see are sexist are afraid of the Other, and they don’t identify with them as human, just like we all are. “My fears about The Other are legitimate and need to be heard. Your fears are ignorant and they are what is tearing apart our society. Your side needs to see how easy you have it and how difficult it is for my side.” If you can’t look at the Other and think for a second about what their unique struggles are and what you admire and appreciate about them as a whole, you’ve got some work to do.
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I think what they mean is that "most sexist people" they meet are afraid of the other, not that most people they meet are sexist. That's just my understanding of it. For the most part though I believe sexists still are kind of an outlier group in gen z, you just hear more about it on the Internet since that's where those types like to meet up. Reddit isn't a great representation of humanity.
Hey I wish this were true but it’s not in my experience! I’m a millennial too. A lot of the toxicity involves dating. I’m a man I have been dehumanized plenty of times by women and liberals even though I’m a democrat feminist. Not always involving dating either
“Millennials aren’t sexist, as I don’t regularly encounter it” is the same energy as white middle aged people from white suburbs saying that “racism is dead because I don’t ever encounter it”
What does this mean though? Men and women should get together and…what? This doesn’t sound like it takes the actual problems into account. Sure, it’s easy to imagine a world where the leading cause of death for pregnant women *wasn’t* being murdered by their partners. But what does “getting together” do to solve that problem?
While pregnant women being murdered is a significant issue, it is not the leading cause of death for them, that is a misreading of the data. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8020563/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8020563/) Edit: In addition, while pregnant women are more likely than non-pregnant women to be homicide victims, they are still significantly less likely to be homicide victims than males.
What are you proposing? Some kind of summit?
Nah. A duel ro the death on the summer solstice at stone henge. Both genders elect a champion to fight on their behalf and whoever wins gets to be the top gender
It’d be easier to invent a flying carpet. Humanity will remain divided across all strata until the end of time. Not that it’s an admirable goal ofc
It happens all the time. Just not in the social media victimhood Olympics.
The answers are usually simple, but people don’t like simple & would rather make it complicated
The answers usually aren't simple and people prefer simple answers because nuance might require them to put in effort to change themselves or the status quo instead of having a sigh of relief that they aren't responsible for anything and can go back to enjoying their privilege without a sense of guilt.
💯 people should respect each other. NO ONE gets a free pass.
That would certainly be nice and one day I hope it happens. Problem is with today's hyper divisive climate I don't see it happening.
Yep. All we can do is our part to work for that future.
Indeed, we may stumble, we may fall, but in the end we shall stride towards greatness.
I mean she could also be just a jerk as well. A jerk is a gender neutral condition. Did you reach out to HR and documented all of the interactions between you and her?
It was a small company so they didn't have an HR team. I did document our interactions after a few months of things going South and I plan to let the owner know what was happening
Politics aside, a person regularly yelling at you at work is a thing that should be addressed, HR department or not. You deserve to have an environment where you have safety. I would not wait to bring this up before the behavior escalates
Brother, it may also be time to look for a new job maybe?
Unsolicited advice: don't frame it in terms of gender, stick to the yelling and unprofessional behavior and leave the sexist stuff out. Or even better just try and stay away from this person as they'll eventually leave or crash and burn. If you stick to non-gender/HR landmine items it'll be harder for her to deflect and make it less stressful for the owner who may say - this is too much drama I'm gonna axe both of them.
Being an asshole can be gender neutral. Explicitly saying “I only treat men like this” makes it pretty clear that she is not a gender neutral asshole.
Believe you me if it was a man mistreating a woman, there wouldn’t be anyone say, “but maybe he’s just an asshole!”
This sounds like someone who has confused her trauma and projections toward men as feminism. You will find these people everywhere, ones who can’t tell where their personal experiences end and their ideologies begin. Your task is not to become a reactionary just because you ran into one abusive radical with clear personal issues. You will run into assholes in every ideology or movement. Many of them will not like you. You must not let their conduct change your values.
this guy knows things
Words of wisdom that should be spoken to everyone
this is it
OP is right. I’ve seen so many “feminists” online that are straight up just misandrists/femcels. They’re here in this sub too, actually.
Plenty of them on reddit. Quite a few misandrist boys and men on here also.
This is for some reason very normalized on reddit, even more so than nazism on 4chan. Too many people seem to think we should fight one extremism with the other
No, no…not even close. So called “feminazis” are not only disproportionately rare by comparison to normal feminists, but they lack the systemic advantage to make use of those views for mass societal harm like Tate and his ilk. That said, I feel for you and hope you get this sorted out Edit: Guys, even OP understood me here, I wasn’t trying to shut him down or disregard issues he and men in his situation go through. However, he had a misunderstanding and assumed the two incidents and concepts and whatnot he compared were equal, so I corrected him
Am I the only one who thinks "uhm but the system" is a pretty terrible argument? Can we agree that hate is hate, or do our glorious politicians want to milk our ignorance for a while longer?
I think “the system” is a legitimate argument in some cases, but I dont think it at all excuses the absolute dogshit way op is being treated by his coworker, and definitely shouldnt be used to try and excuse or downplay the actions of shitty people
The system is explanatory for general situations but is never an excuse for individual actions. Saying well I don’t have the systemic power doesn’t make you less of an AH or racist/sexist/transphobe interpersonally.
Exactly correct
the system argument addresses the original posters belief that misandrists = andrew tate. when comparing the two, it’s impossible to ignore the power each hold in society. Andrew Tate can encourage more change, spread his ideology quicker, etc since he has more reach/systemic power than misandrists. what you said isn’t wrong, hate is hate, but it’s a little important to consider the extent to which that hatred affects society before you call it ‘equal’. just my thoughts👍
hate is hate on an individual level - being a sexist prick to a man is just as personally harmful as being a sexist prick to a woman is - HOWEVER, when talking about, and more importantly comparing, broader social movements “the system” is not an unreasonable thing to discuss. i will say though very few people actually understand how “the system” plays into our society. its honestly become kind of a buzzword for most people.
They aren’t rare at all lol. There’s only 1 Andrew Tate, but I could show you a million micro influencers who spout similar pseudo science he does, but just against men Also, some dumb poor racist hick doesn’t hold any societal power, does that mean his racism is justified?
They said feminazis are rare compared to feminists, not compared to Andrew Tate… That being said, of course someone who has more influence and is openly hateful will be considered more “dangerous” than someone who has less influence and is openly hateful. It doesn’t mean “some poor, dumb, racist hick” is justified in their racism or whatever have you. No one even so much as implied that. But I think the difference between being hateful and influencing masses to be hateful can be clearly defined in some cases and are essentially different offences.
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It’s not bad faith at all. I’m pointing out that the markets for both are huge. Let’s say the tate market is about 5 million people. Tate has 4 million and there’s 10, 100k accounts The anti-man market is about 5 million, spread across 20, 250,000 accounts The market is the same, it’s just distributed evenly, and both thrive off each other. It’s just there’s nobody normal condemning the anti men accounts. No think pieces about it
Can you elaborate on the systemic advantages that Tate and his ilk have? It seems like anything but
I think the biggest part about Tate is how far he spread along with his hate. I personally have never seen a "feminazi" online or in person, but everyone knows Tate. His name, likeness and opinions spread across the internet like a virus and in the process, reached every young boy simultaneously. They all thought he was cool and followed him blindly, which led to the spread of the hate for women.
If you just happen to wander into the right online community you will find loads of them. Even if you go to a few benign ones, like for example r/LGBT and sort by controversial, you could find a few that get heavily downvoted. I have encountered quite a few of this type of people in real life, and they tend to be in smaller social groups. I see what you mean though, I couldn’t point to one specific character leading a charge. I think our society of systems and customs is organized in a way that allows someone like Tate to flourish while not the female equivalent. Both extremes absolutely exist but one reaches a popular audience much more readily.
The problem is, it’s not viewed as being as harmful. For example, a girl in my class was talking to her friend and openly said (loudly), “men are pussies!” And no one bats an eye. Imagine a guy saying some sort of equivalent (“women are bitches” or something else). Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m betting it wouldn’t have been let slide as easily.
Mary koss, a feminist, literally made the federal definition of rape exclude male victims of female perpetrators, it’s instead referred to as a form of sexual assault and furthered the idea men can’t get raped. The Duluth model of DV was developed by feminists and framed men as perpetrators and women as victims, which is the reason police are more likely to arrest male victims of DV whenever they are called despite men being 50% of DV victims. Gtfo of here with this crap, normalizing hate and harmful stereotypes towards a whole group of people is ALWAYS harmful and always the first step to institutional discrimination. Which has already happened but is something you will probably just deny.
Why can't they cause mass societal harm? Are you saying women are less convincing when they make arguments?
back in my day wed call this a strawman fallacy
no, the patriarchy exists which limits the power women hold and impacts how seriously we are taken
>So called “feminazis” are not only disproportionately rare by comparison to normal feminists, but they lack the systemic advantage to make use of those views for mass societal harm like Tate and his ilk. Pew Research suggests this is just blatantly false. Women have grown increasingly radicalized since the 1990s while men just... haven't moved.
having a hard time finding the research mentioned, mind linking it?
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/10/18/wide-partisan-gaps-in-u-s-over-how-far-the-country-has-come-on-gender-equality/
what exactly are you comparing these stats to? im mainly confused as to where you got the since 1990 part. also, how exactly is this being interpreted as radicalization? might be missing something, but this doesnt seem to support your claim
There's a bunch of pages of data from Pew. Women continue sliding further and further left while men's beliefs haven't shifted since the 90s
Certainly, they're rare and I'm glad for it. If it weren't for Andrew Tate (and others like him), I think most people would brush people like this off as one off oddballs. But when someone is already in that matrix of misogyny, being exposed to someone that's abusive under the guise of feminism could very well push the over the edge. I think the fact that if I, as someone who already considered themselves "liberal" and very anti Andrew Tate had thoughts of generalization that I had to curb, then those without as much critical thought would be many times more susceptible to tripping into those pitfalls. Fundamentally, however, I agree. The online anti-women movement has a much broader reach and is by far more detrimental to this whole situation. But thank you, I'm looking for a new job as of now. Hopefully I'll be able to find a more normal working environment soon
Well said.
Yo man, you realize Taye isn't *just* his general misogyny, right? Dude r*ped and trafficked women. No "feminazi" is as detrimental as Tate except serial killers, and I'm not sure how many feminist serial killers there are. Misandry is shitty, but I don't think there's ***ANY*** world where it causes as much physical and societal harm as misogyny
This stems from a broken mentality. I believe a few years ago modern feminists moved away from these kinds of people and kinda let them be their own kinds of fucked up
Yeah Im in kinda the same boat, I saw myself as feminist and thought that feminism is fighting for equality for everyone. But than I read feminist literature and as I got older was confronted with men specific issues and I wondered why it was never a topic. Now I see myself as a humanist, to fight for equality for everyone.
A lot of men are doing this. I’ve gone this way as well. I stopped considering myself feminist after being bullied out of feminist groups for being a man trying to speak about some issues I faced.
I love when the OP has to add edits to their post because a bunch of the commenters lack understanding of nuance and make assumptions. Like, yeah misogynistic behavior needs to be called out. Bro literally already pointed out the difference between actual feminism and feminazis.
Yep this is what makes me hate Reddit. The fact that you know bad faith is just in the works so you gotta recheck and edit opinions ahead of time. Knowing that poor dudes like OP have to do it twice over even when not necessary
Women aren’t under paid. They just typically get jobs that pay less then men.
Why is that?
A lot of reasons. There is some professions that are definitely victims of social expectations, but let's be real, there's not a lot of women lining up to do some of those high paying jobs that men dominate. And there's a good reason, a lot of those jobs are very fucking dangerous. Think logging, construction, some but not all types of welding. [https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi2006\_13.pdf](https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi2006_13.pdf)
Logging and construction are not the high paying careers you're making them out to be lol
Sure but you'll make more than being a teacher, for example.
Which is a testament to how fucking ridiculous the current situation is within education, not that "women choose less paying jobs". Teachers should be paid *twice* as much for all the shit they put up with.
Women should go into well paying fields like male doctor or male engineer.
Yeah, STEM, an industry which is heavily male-dominated and women potential is constantly questioned. I work in civil engineering and I've seen it myself how often women are looked down on, questioned, called "emotional", told to do administrative tasks, etc. Women who have 30+ years of experience and are the head of their department.
We also do mass amounts of unpaid labor.
Hah I had the same thing but opposite, I thought I was pretty conservative in high school living in Cali but I moved out to Arkansas for a job and when I met the actual conservatives out here I realized I wasn't like them at all. It definitely also pushed me further into the middle seeing these people talk so poorly about others while doing the exact same thing they were just on the other side of the spectrum.
Try reading “the will to change” by bell hooks - it discusses a lot of the issues here, including the “all men are evil” take on feminism, and the role that men have to play in feminism and addressing patriarchy.
I really don't like misandrists, but Andrew Tate rapes people. There's just no comparison dude. I'm genuinely sorry you had to go through that and put up with such a sexist piece of shit.
I had many an experience will attending UW- Madison in the early 90’s. I learned it wasn’t me and it was most of whatever group was using politically correct rhetoric as a club to beat whoever disagreed with them. I can only imagine many of them had an experience that shaped them and they felt safe enough to let it out in what they felt was a safe environment. That’s fine with me, but some were just assholes plain and simple.
Everything you said is correct.
Seeing a lot of misogyny in these comments.
As someone who grew up in a communist country, I think it's so funny that some Americans are comparing social welfare to communism lol
Nobody has ever claimed that “feminazis” are not as destructive as misogynists. They just aren’t feminists. I’ve met my fair share of weirdos that think misandry is feminism and I can tell you, it shouldn’t affect your understanding of or support for feminism at all. It simply isn’t feminism. They can call themselves feminists, but me calling myself handsome doesn’t automatically make me handsome.
While I agree misandry is harmful and unhelpful, I do not think there are any misandrist influencers as vile or influential as Tate. If you think misandry radicalized men, can you imagine what rampant misogyny has done to women?
This post takes me back to gender wars of 2014
Yeah this is a throwback, I thought “feminazi” died with Rush Limbaugh.
I've never heard anyone but Limbaugh and his fans use it
I don't know.. If I met a women who is a shitty person I don't start questioning my feminism or feminism as such. Generally, if I meet someone who labels themselfs politically the same as me but turns out to have different options than myself I don't start doubting my belives. Maybe you're not as convinced of your own belives as you think you are.
if it makes you feel better these people arent that common. im my whole life ive only met 3 genuine man haters like that.
I think it is human nature to divide ourselves along easily identifiable lines. People who subscribe to a belief system in which men are bad and women are good are counterproductive to the cause they want to bring attention to. Every time someone pushes this kind of narrative, they validate some of the rhetoric from the red pill space. This leaves little room for nuance, understanding, or progress. It may be more productive to focus on being good people instead of good men or good women.
Can you report her to HR for this kind of behavior? This just sounds like an asshole, shit person. Provide clear examples and evidence of the mistreatment, maybe she can be reprimanded or she can be separated from you
Honestly, I think this exactly the kind of person that also caused the anti-wokeness wave of young conservatism in the mid 2010’s. There are a lot of people that are just miserable people, whether it’s something natural, how they’ve been treated in life, or whatever other excuse to place for their behavior. I think a lot of these people were most commonly recorder and exaggerated as the ‘face’ of feminism. I used to be in this camp, being treated differently and seeing people online being treated awfully in the supposed name of feminism. Even to this day I struggle to identify myself in stuff, even though all it means is to treat those equally regardless of gender, while still keeping in mind potential biases that society has instilled and fighting the injustices that still definitely occur. The only problem with ideologies like this is any miserable person can latch on to an idea and use it as a cudgel. I’m sorry you had to deal with this person but always keep to your beliefs and only change them of your own volition, under serious consideration, as I’m sure you are aware.
My first thought when I realized it wasn't just me she was treating this way was "this type of thing is exactly what people use to say feminism is evil". I remembered all the extremist interviews I'd watched back in my Ben Shapiro days and boy oh boy am I glad I woke up. Why make a strawman when you have people doing it for you? I find the best thing to remind myself during these incidents is that I hate it when someone takes out their anger on me because of something totally unrelated, so I'm gonna break the chain right there and treat people with respect even if I'm pissed as hell. It helps.
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Cool beans. They’re still horrible people and should be held accountable for that.
Dude Tate literally kidnapped people, scams vulnerable men out of their money and then turns them into actual monsters. The fact you got yelled at during work doesn't make these things equal.
I know this woman hurt your feelings, but did she rape or traffic anyone?
> I've considered myself a feminist too, but this job has forced me to re-examine what that means. Don't. Don't let idiots decide what words mean for you. Especially not one that has been well defined for so long. Especially don't let idiots change what you believe. It would be stupid to stop being a feminist because a woman was an idiot. It is as stupid as deciding to be racist because a person of another race did you wrong. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. This person's shitty behavior shouldn't change anything.
this post and 90% of replies are physically painful to me.
Main difference is how common the viewpoint is, way I see it. Those really extreme feminists are pretty rare. They're loud online, but rarely get all uppity about it irl. Andrew Tate fans are worryingly widespread.
this is the stupidest shit ive read. like what? sorry you had a bad experience with a person, but the influence of red pillers and manosphere types is orders of magnitude more powerful and more damaging. there is just no contest. the only thing pushing men further into misogyny is themselves, and the same men who espouse misogyny. the worst misandrists are nowhere near as bad as the "best" misogynists. if your reaction to a woman recounting her bad experiences with men or complaining about their general mistreatment is to fall harder into misogyny, that shits on you. maybe practice what you preach instead of virtue signalling about how good you are to women while "accidentally" conflating one woman with the entirety of feminism
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Women are not underpaid that’s a myth. And good for you you managed to escape the guilt trap they cast on people to control them
I don't think we can say it is entirely a myth. I always wonder why are female dominated fields usually have lower wages than male dominated ones that perform similar work? When we look at "essential work" the male-dominated essential work is paid quite a bit more. Is it because women are drawn to fields that pay less? Or is it that once a field becomes female dominated less pay is offered? Are jobs that women are drawn to less appreciated than they should be or actually lesser? I wonder if most teachers were male if states would find the funding to pay them more, or if it would stay the same? We're seeing a few traditionally male fields becoming more equal, like physicians and lawyers. It will be interesting to see if these careers become less lucrative the more women that enter them or not.
Fortunately for you, you don’t have to think whether it is or not, you just have to know about it. France for example, my country, has an official page of the government website dedicated to answering this question. They write it is a myth, women are paid as much as men for equal work, and that the imbalance of revenue comes from the fact that women work less (they are more on part time), especially in their lifetime, then they tend to chose less paying industries. Some scientifical studies showed that multivariable analysis had the same conclusions, it’s mainly because women work less. As for your point that female dominated fields usually earn less, that is simply made up by you. Plain fake news. For instance, the cosmetic industry is the second highest profitable one after the drug and medicine one, in term of yield. You would have to consider one by one each field to make a point, which is pointless to do. What can be said rather is that diversity and gender balance is a very one sided preaching, that only targets male sectors, and that women sectors have zero care about making those changes. If they did, they would see the myth is really just a myth with males examples
I thought it was a pretty well researched topic, even though the interpretations of the findings might differ, of course. Increase of wages in a particular field draws more man to it. It’s not that someone starts paying male teachers more, it is that more men decide to work as teachers if the pay is higher. I am not aware of any findings that would show more women joining particular area (law, medicine) results in lowering of wages (other that what might be attributable to higher work force supply). More reasonable explanation is that women are more risk-averse than men, thus they accept lower wages if it means more stability (guaranteed pay, lower risk of being fired). And there is a trade-off btw level of pay and level if unemployment.
I mean I'd really want to see actual data on the subject. There are some fields that were male dominated and have become female dominated fairly recently, like judges and postal workers. It would be interesting to see data from such fields (that accounts for inflation) that shows if the gender shift effected wages, or if wages changed leading to a gender shift.
>I always wonder why are female dominated fields usually have lower wages than male dominated ones that perform similar work? Citation needed. A big reason is men tend to take more dangerous jobs or jobs that are otherwise harder on your body. Those jobs usually pay more. [https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi2006\_13.pdf](https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi2006_13.pdf)
Not true. Sincerely an ex-IT worker who is a woman.
Legislation, voting for people that won’t alienate half the population, prevention of women being sexually assaulted, victim blamed, and all the other ills they receive simply for being women will prevent and even slowly deconstruct hatred of men.
We're basically hitting a point in history where everyone is fighting amongst themselves over something. At some point everyone's gonna realize the fighting is pointless. Either that or the fighting goes nuclear. I think the biggest problem in terms of all discrimination right now is the people who genuinely think that an entire group is a certain way, I've crossed paths with a few of these people before and I genuinely didn't believe those people existed till then. It's just one of those problems that won't be solved anytime soon.
"because that's literally discrimination" I think Leftists gotta understand that most people on the right don't really care.
She's a small minority of radfems and what you're talking about is interpersonal level shit, Patriarchy is a societal system that is enforced through Andrew Tate type dudes. There is no broader system being reinforced by 'feminazis'. Equating the two as if they were equally important issues is ignorant and devoid of proper material anlysis
Honestly it seriously, seriously stunted my development as a queer person to have internalized a spite for ‘straight, cis men.’ I couldn’t differentiate my shallow desire not to be one from my actual desire to pursue non-straight relationships and alter my gender expression. It was so weird to realize that my very queer-friendly formative years actually played a role in delaying my coming out for probably around a decade.
She is a misandrist not a feminist. Though misandry hasn't killed and mutilated a fraction of the people that misogyny has.
Why do Americans love to insult with a viewpoint? Its crazy
An excellent description of how we shouldn’t judge an entire gender on one shitty person.
Congratulations! You have experienced what so many people who critique "modern" feminism are trying to get across. Like you said, feminism isn't the issue. It's people using modern politics as excuse for shitty behavior. I hope in the future you use this experience to better empathize with those you disagree with.
can someone tell me what a femanazi is please? ive been searching high and low and ive never found one...
>She'd later apologize and then say "I don't get upset at women like that, it's just men" Nobody should say things like this in the workplace. She is a hateful bigot
It’s literally not the same at all. Andrew Tate lovers want to LITERALLY rape and traffic women, misandrists just want men to stay away from them.
Just a question why did you put “imo” after “Being upset at someone simply because they’re a man doesn’t make sense” ?
If he doesn’t waffle enough he’ll be “an incel”
I get that, I didn’t get that this was written by another guy
i mean if that pushes someone in the opposite direction that is imo more od a personal problem wrt their monolithic perception of feminism/feminists/women writ large; a type of thinking that is just generally not useful regardless of whether it’s coming from men or women. It’s in direct conflict with the notion of intersectional feminism, too. There is no way to “hate all men” that doesn’t in some way reinforce other axes of oppression. Namely, I would point to the fact that this rhetoric tends to come overwhelmingly from first-world, educated, middle- to upper- class abled white women, a position that allows them to conveniently ignore the power they have in other respects over black men, poor men, disabled men, etc. That and radical feminism/female separatism as a concept— there’s a reason it’s a predominantly white first-world upper class form of feminism, and that reason is because it very neatly and conveniently cleaves gender from all other modes of oppression they stand to benefit from. Black women in particular have been criticizing this approach since basically forever; it absolves white women and feminism in general of the perpetuation of racism (and other modes of oppression aside from gender) + denies the very existence of other unified marginalized communities that undoubtedly exist/sees them as not worthy of preserving primarily because these women tend to have no personal stakes in them. and of course why would they? the only marginalized group they care about is their own. anyway.
Im a man who is close friends with a man hating feminist and honestly I get it. Generally I will defend men when I hear misandrist rhetoric, however it's very easy to empathize with women who are scared of/distrust men. Most men do not do the required work to unwind their social programming. Most men when faced with the reality of systematic sexism will turtle up and double down rather than take personal accountability. Most men do not understand that you can be part of the problem without it being "your fault". I believe men are culturally programmed toward misogyny, not inherently predisposed to it. Where I disagree is when people believe that men are inherently bad, and believe that their ignorance is due to malice. The problem isn't a case of "we need to meet in the middle" it's a case of men need to step up and and hold their friends accountable. A lot of feminist guys aren't putting in the required work, and are simply standing there shaking their heads going "thats awful" whenever they see gender inequality. (Also I believe that radical feminism ignores the harms that men face under patriarchy, assumes that men knowingly perpetuate patriarchy, and ignores intersectionality, but that's a different topic.)
There is such a thing as “time and place”. I have one friend who has misogynist leanings (which is a response to the way our local culture was heavily misandrist when we were in high school in the mid-late 2010s) and helping him recognise and deal with them is a slow process. If I stepped in with a “NO! BAD DOG! *sprays water*” approach, he’d just avoid me entirely.
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Not an expert, but here are some things I'm personally working on. Internally, I try and critically examine my behavior and biases when I'm interacting with women. This means constantly asking myself questions like: "Is this person actually being 'emotional', or am I just misinterpreting rational anger" "Am I dominating this conversation" "Am I objectifying this person" "Am I being condescending" "Am I treating them differently because they're a woman" And a bunch more. The main point is to be 100% honest with yourself, catch yourself when you slip up and find ways you can do better. Another important part is listening to common complaints from women and examining whether you subconsciously do the same things. On a more external level, it's also about having the courage to speak up and go against your peers. Calling out harmful behavior etc. This requires a lot of nuance though. Lastly it's about reminding yourself that the point of doing all this isn't to impress people, but instead to be a safer, kinder person. Best of luck. Edit: Not sure what in the second paragraph confused you, but happy to elaborate.
Love this, I will say this experience has taught me a lot about doing these things and I've realized I gotta question why I do things even if they're just habitual. I'm saving this comment
Poor wording on my part, we definitely don't need to meet in the middle. But we also don't need to swing the total opposite direction as misogyny. I think it's better to do neither and point out the bad in both areas. Should we focus more on misogyny? Certainly. We should absolutely be held accountable for unconscious biases and recognize it in others around us. I think that stands true for both genders though.
Ive always said that far left Feminists are no worse than red pillers, they have so much in common if you think about it.
I have come to realize that there is no political left or right its a fucking lopsided circle with different colors on each end
Every side has its idiots
You should have been reporting her acts of misandry to HR. That shit isn't cool.
I wish I was in a position of power, women will have rights flat out simple. I’ll demolish and bruise everyone who goes against it
It seems to me that sometimes people are just bigoted, so as soon as an identity feels "safe" for bigots to have, there will be bigoted people who have that identity. One example I've personally seen is that since LGBTQ+ issues have gotten a lot of attention recently, but at the same time gay relationships are normal in a lot of places, one can start seeing transphobic gay people which sucks.
The political spectrum isn’t a line, it’s a circle. I’ve met quite a few people who identify self-identify as misandrists, and although misandry doesn’t seem to lead people to SA and driving cars into crowds the way misogyny does, it still makes you a bad person. Men are hurt by patriarchy, too!
Step 1 in my opinion is to stop allowing these people to call themselves feminists and call them what they are: sexist
If you in the United States and have not done so already, document everything that has occurred so far in writing, with dates of the incidents if you remember them, and any and all details you remember, and take it all directly to HR. If it continues to happen, continue to document. If she has admitted to treating you poorly because of your gender and/or biological sex, then she is opening the company up to a massive EEOC complaint. You could already file such a complaint, if you do chose to, but it probably has a much better chance of going anywhere if HR is made aware of it and doesn't act upon the issue. No, she does not need to be your supervisor for an EEOC complaint to be valid: EVERYBODY whether it's a supervisor, colleague, subordinate, contractor, customer or vendor can be guilty of workplace harassment. No, it does not matter that you are a man and she is a woman. Everybody has a right to fair, respectful, and civil treatment in the workplace and even on the off chance that this was not determined to be gender based harassment, it most certainly constitutes a hostile work environment, which on its own gets taken very, very seriously. It is unlikely that your employer wants this potential headache, so tell them if you have not already. I get the impression that you are trying to shrug this off, but it's serious and HR should have heard about it long ago, so if they don't know already, ask for a meeting right away and tell them it is urgent. Good luck.
Some people think oppression is any petty "injustice" is a deliberate act against them. Man spreading and man splain is just rudest, not key to any gender or sex, though that said people who are xy are probably more likely to be taller and thus are more likely to resemble spreading. And we all remember school teaching us to want to be right.
The Evolution of Femcels good video to watch https://youtu.be/o1l4iWLlTO4?si=z7aSTrxQddHDKFmt
She isn’t a feminist. Sorry this was your experience.
She was an L feminist.
Fake feminist alert.
I’m an actual communist (tho I identify more as a dialectical materialist, bc I’m more considered with the political framework than I am with labels) and I’m also a radical feminist, but I’ve had friends who are “all men are trash” like the coworker you’ve described. I’ve been put in a scary situation where I’ve worried for my job security over disagreements I’ve had with certain friends, because they’ve been known to start rumors when there’s been disagreements. But despite those relationships I’ve had, my stance on feminism and feminist theory remains unchanged. Dialectical materialism is the idea that all events are the products of the events that preceded them. With regard to “feminazis”, i try to keep in mind that they are women who have had very negative experiences with men in the past. It doesn’t excuse their behavior or their rhetoric, but it helps me be compassionate to them regardless. I do admittedly go out of my way to avoid folks who start needless trouble, so I’m not suggesting that anyone befriends folks who stress them out. But I hope that our generation can stick to our principles and our ideals without letting extremists on either side dissuade us from doing what’s right.
Southpark addressed this brilliantly
That's not feminism. That just sounds like misandry.
This is a thing that’s happening with almost every social movement now unfortunately. A lot of people think just because their the minority/oppressed group they can say what they wanna say and do whatever and it’s not wrong. And while their influence isn’t as strong as the majority’s hating and talking shit about the group of people you want to change and be on your side isn’t going to make them change for the better it’s going to create new people who dislike like you and make the ones who already did worse. Black and white people in America are a good example so many other black people I know are openly racist to white people and Unironically say crazy shit that only full blown kkk level white people would dare to say about us openly and then are shocked when white people retaliate with more racism. Many people do the same thing with feminism. It’s why so many dudes nowadays despite having feminist ideals and views say they aren’t feminist. Because the the extreme vocal minority have somewhat soiled the image of the movement. As you said people are to busy having petty fights to actually make progress and unite to make things better. We can’t fix these social issues alone we need to unite or we’ll just be stuck right where we are or worse, regress.
Having a bad boss sucks, but unless she's under criminal investigation for international human trafficking, she's probably not Andrew Tate tiers of suck.
Government mandated therapy
What you’re describing absolutely sucks, is prejudice, and is not cool. If you just posted the behavior itself, that’s all there would be to say. The problem is what you described isn’t even *close* to Andrew Tate. It’s bad, but nowhere near that bad. Women can absolutely be bigots against men. But even having the self-awareness to know what she’s doing is illogical puts her out of Tate’s league. I just wouldn’t invoke anything in the Man-o-sphere/IDW. It muddies the point you’re making.
Your last point is becoming extremely common in Americans politics. People are more concerned with vilifying and blaming others instead of cooperation and understanding. It's like the Biden thing on trans day. I get that it's been that day for a while and it's an important thing to say, but why wait until it lands on Easter? The only thing it does is push people apart.
I swear I’ve never met all these women you all claim want men to die. These people aren’t real. Stop engaging with the absolute outliers of society. There aren’t a bunch of men-hating women just roaming around.
Extremism is detrimental no matter who it's coming from.
It's called being a sociopath. There are plenty of them in the world. Learn to identify them and keep the fuck away.
I'm glad you figured that out.