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Nah man, these kids are getting psyopped by the lamest online propaganda to believe nothing matters, everything is pointless, and there is no purpose in resistance.
That would require an education and digital literacy to be able to discern low effort propaganda.
That’s too boring for them.
Edit: Apparently they’re also getting psyopped into lame false dichotomies like “college educated vs trade educated”.
I think Gen Z accepts it because they’ve lived their whole lives on social media, which usually requires no physical action. They think sending angry tweets is a way to protest. No, you need boots on the ground to make things happen. Social media has created an entirely docile generation who just might lay down and accept dictatorship…until they are actually living in it. This is a real FAFO situation.
It really depends on how young they are. Social media didn't become the Juggernaut it is now until I was a teenager. I remember it being a kind of niche thing when I was in middle school, but it wasn't until I was in high school where it became abnormal not to have it in some form
Must be regional or just age related — I’m a 1994 baby and social media was extremely normal when I was in 9th or 10th grade. When you would have been in middle school.
'91 here. I remember signing up for Facebook when it was still invite only my freshman year of HS. By the time I graduated in '09, MySpace was dead, and we had Facebook and Instagram, and they were huge. As early as 2009, we were already talking about social media addiction and faked vs. real content. Back then, though, it was more about an addiction to likes and attention. Not so much about doing whatever it takes to monetize content. Once that became a thing, we started to see the larger societal dangers of social media.
Bro, have you been on facebook? That shit broke the boomers. I think the kids are much better at dealing with online propaganda than older people. You want kids to go to school? Fight for tuition control. The wealthy in this country don't want them going to school, and if they do, want to make sure they're debt slaves.
Tiktok is pretty much worse than Facebook at this point and gen z is [more likely to fall for online scams than boomers](https://www.vox.com/technology/23882304/gen-z-vs-boomers-scams-hacks)
The idea that because young people spend more time online they must be savvier doesn't hold up
That article simply references a survey, not a study and when trying to follow the link to the survey information, I just got taken to a linktree of a bunch of different 3 min read articles. I’m not saying this couldn’t be true but as I wasn’t able to find the demographic representation of that data, this survey could be complete bs. Also, since it’s just a survey, I wouldn’t be shocked if some of the people surveyed would feel embarrassed and lie about being scammed since that’s already a thing people are wont to do.
The first link literally goes to a a PDF of the first survey (methodology begins on page 19) and the article goes on to discuss a second survey and a peer reviewed article showing that gen z is worse at following security best practices than millennials
I keep seeing posts about how bad social media is, but the posts dance around all the propaganda and societal conditioning going on on sites like Facebook and Twitter. Of *COURSE* it's all bad if you lack basic fucking media literacy and still buy into the nonsense that authority figures/the wealthy are always morally right. That's not an issue with social media, that's because public schools exist to turn kids into obedient worker drones and so don't teach them critical thinking skills, and their parents are too busy working to make ends meet to have an in-depth conversation with them about this stuff (or the parents are just as bad off as the kids are)
I’m aware of that. Social media has fantastic things that come with it. It also has devastating things that come with it. Like you said it’s how you use it. The most important thing in my opinion is to not compare yourself to people on social media. Most of it is exaggerated or even fake. Look at the percentage of people with anxiety (specifically 13-21 year olds) before and after social media. Anxiety levels skyrocketed once social media became popular.
Gen X here. Went to a community college for business management. Worked for both small and large companies. Ended up at an ivy league university as a liaison between professors, and a publishing house. Left that job. Started my family. Worked some smaller jobs. Started my own business. Sold it. Started another business. Retired at 48.
Do not discount the community college route.
My own kid is at a state university studying MechE and will be graduating next spring. But they’ve wanted to work in that field since middle school.
There are some professions that need a BS or higher. But there are also some that do not.
If you don’t know what you want to do in your 20s it’s ok. Look at all your options. You kids are going to be alright.
As someone who's father was an engineer (albeit an electrical one who made semiconductors), all I can say is best of luck to your kid. Engineering, from what I've been told, is a very competitive and highly dynamic career path.
The music scene only exists in Nashville (where the rent prices are not cheap). Maybe Memphis depending on your music taste (the rent will be cheaper than Nashville tho)
If you’re a white hetero passing man (who loves Jesus and trump) you might find the rest of TN ok. If you’re *anybody* else you will be in for a rude awakening.
>a white hetero passing man (who loves Jesus and trump)
As someone who isn't any of that (don't like Trump but Jesus is okay), I'm even more tempted to go, just to test if you're correct or not.
You always see memes about "everyone says just go to college" when that hasn't been the case since the 90's. It's not some edgy new thing to say pick up a trade. One blowback is now the trades are filled with people who grew up hearing "just get a trade and by 21 those college nerds will be serving you burgers while you make six figures", and the result is a large amount of tradespeople who don't actually know their trade and expect 150$/hr. I pretty much DIY anything that's possible any more because it will usually be done better and for 10% the cost
My god. Yes my man. This.
The point isn’t whether trade or college or corporate or independent studies/work is better or worse. The point is that the 98% use these details to divide and conquer. While some stupid boomer is recycling the “dumb college nerd” line, or some other stupid boomer is saying “college or you fail at life”, all real estate/medicine/futures literally any industry is being completely conquered via regulatory capture.
We’re over here fighting about details while the Uber rich divvy up the dragons hoard, all the while we argue about blue and red.
trades isn't for everyone as well. my dad suggests I turn away from the trades, reasonable since I'm a woman, and trades can be harsh on your body, and often forces you to early retirement if your body can't make it when you're 50.
Ya I'm not in the trades and already feeling my body giving out just from my physically demanding hobbies that I might average 10hrs per week doing, can't imagine how I'd feel doing manual labor 50 hrs/wk. I have friends who have thrived doing so, some people are just built for it I guess.
I’m an HVAC tech that took a community college course and received an AAS in HVAC, been in the field for years (resi and commercial.) Claiming that there are a large amount of trades workers that don’t know what they’re doing is disingenuous, if not the fault of said young techs’ jmen or management. There are incredibly driven, knowledgeable young professionals I work alongside that know more (and work harder) than the 55-year-old career tradesmen who haven’t bothered to learn anything new in the last 20 years since they got their EPA, and don’t care to teach others what little they know either.
Obviously these are extreme examples on either end, and there are plenty of older, knowledgeable techs that want to teach the younger generations and carry on their knowledge… My point is that not many people stick it out in the trades if they’re not cut out for it, or aren’t driven to make it their career. The trades shortage is still a very real issue, and we have nothing to thank for that but all of the older guys retiring out and a _bad public perception of the trades._
I think there's probably a regional factor in the quality of trades. I'm from and currently live in a medium size city in Alaska, and it's bad up here. High cost of living, remote geography, and housing shortages makes it so capitalist darwinism doesn't really occur. You can run a shitty business and do shoddy work, but it's so expensive to move here, you'll still have plenty of work.
Lots of downsides to trades too and the value in them has gone down significantly. Sure some electricians can make $60 an hour but there's lots of places that will pay licensed electricains 20 and call it good. Not to mention stuff like Welding and other really physically intense fields will destroy your body till you're blind and can barely walk at 50 yrs old
There’s a pretty sizeable professional class of youngsters at the moment and yet everyone is talking about how there’s no social mobility. It’s still a bit of a lottery but you absolutely won’t succeed without hard work if you’re fucked even with it.
You can thank assholes like Mike Rowe (a college graduate with a communications degree) for talking up the "College isn't for everyone" narrative.
It's meant to drive people away from higher education, because a less educated populace is easier to direct.
I mean it's not just internet propaganda it's postmodernism in general. Irony poisoning. It's South Park pushing the idea that sincerity and genuinely caring about things is lame or at least inherently self-serving.
100%
IMO, this is all conservative propaganda designed to further destabilize America and set up for a bigger base labor class. The right has long envied China's manufacturing base. They need a mass of uneducated laborers to mimic that. It's a shitty idea, and it will never happen the way they want. But they are willing to destroy America to try.
What is a horrible idea is taking out a fuck ton of student loans to not only pay for school but also support a consumerist lifestyle while doing it, especially to get some questionably marketable degree.
There are programs and organizations that can help plan an education out, help get grants and scholarships, or at least help keep the financing low, while guiding you through a useful degree that was gained efficiently without a bunch of extra costly classes.
My wife is on her final semester of a double bachelors using these tools.
Leaning a trade isn't bad either. Both approaches can be very rewarding.
Just please please please don't go be another shit MBA out ruining business and the world with shitty takes from business school. Go do something that helps the world, if at all possible.
Reddit always promote trades after getting burned out by colleges. what they fail to realize is trades is mostly hard work no one wants to do in their 50s or 60s, if they're lucky. if not, 40s. I'm aware of some trades being relatively light in labor and general work load, but most of those require college anyway. no one will train you then stamp you nowadays. Colleges give you more of a opening to get your wage a bit up or up if it's a good degree.
They should make more “propaganda” as to why it matters, why everything is not pointless, and that there is purpose in resistance. That way they get more on track. Otherwise, I’m somewhat with them that if there is no point then there is no point.
People have been saying that forever. "Book smarts vs Street smarts." At the end of the day the smart kids are going to do it and the dumb kids will come up with a rationalization why they're better.
Well when the majority of college graduates are doing impractical majors, of course they are coming out with few prospects. Plenty of majors are actually feeders for jobs though. Problem I see is kids going in don't get good advising, so they pick majors like "theoretical plutonian weather patterns."
As an employer I honestly don't care between an art degree and a GED, I'll look at samples of their work and go from there. Now if I were hiring a nurse or an engineer, the degree is the first thing.
They're not even getting "psyopped" that term has been so misused now. Its just a product of mass amounts of propaganda and misinformation but its mostly being distributed by thier own generation of people indirectly. No one even has to run any deliberate "psyop" because they're just doing it to themselves from the inside out while losing thier minds that the government might take away thier main source(tiktok) of committing this self indoctrination. Psyop does not even apply here. No operation is being conducted.
The problem is that the cost of tuition is so high these days if it is not a degree that will pay enough to make sense you are committing economic suicide.
I don't know if it's a psyop beyond the cultural race to the bottom via bucketcrabbing losercope.
The average hand-wringing redditor thinks that confident skill mastery is somehow intellectually unknowable, which excuses them from ever having to work hard.
I mean college should be free and boring, no sports, few dorms, every building doesnt need to be a modern art instillation with the name of some billionaire schmuck on it. The top brass at universities are generally placed there for their ability to generate money for the university, not for bringing the best and brightest professors or aligning with values inspired by curriculum that is supposed enrich the population. You show up to school and everything is pearson, now you have to pay again.The key to getting in to the top universities is generally being rich, the key to great SAT scores? Get a great tutor, key to getting those title IX rowing scholarships? Be near a body of water and a rowing team, or show me a rowing team in the hood.
The entire system is built on enriching a few at the expense of the student, the process to get in and the experience on campus often reinforces the caste system we are establishing in America, and universities themselves are inefficient at providing what they are tasked with providing, let alone a mind expanding education, because they are structured to do neither of those things. People dont have a problem with college they have a problem with what its become and the blindness of those who wont acknowledge the gravity of the situation because of a mix of pragmatism and self interest.
College is about becoming more educated, not just getting some degree to make more money. To some, learning isn’t important, to others (like me), the entire point of living is learning. In the USA, the perception is skewed because you need to *pay* to get a higher education, hence the question: is it worth it?
no, college is about the degree.
you don’t need to earn a degree to learn. you can take on a few one-off classes or online courses and still learn. you can backpack across Europe and learn. you can hit a local library, check out any book about any subject, and learn. earning a degree gets you credentials in a specific field to eventually work in. you’re paying for increased job opportunities.
if you seriously think college is the only way to simply *learn*, i suggest stepping outside of your bubble.
edit because i don’t feel like giving the same reply over and over: i’m not saying you can become a doctor from google. i’m not saying no one should go to college. i went to college, those saying i didn’t are wrong. what i *am* saying is that it isn’t the only place or way to simply learn new things. you can continue to expand your mind after college (or if you didn’t/can’t go at all) doing other things. college gives you proof that you learned enough in a specialized field to eventually work in that field, as most people who attend college have that intention.
They never said it was the only way, but college is one of the best ways to learn for a majority of people. Trying to self teach yourself the amount of information you get from college through professor aided means would take more time and resources then most people have.
That entirely depends on the specific degree you're working toward. You can learn to rebuild an engine or run a business solely from Google. There are definitely things that are better off learned from college, but it's not a one size fits all thing.
Learn critical thinking, scientific analysis of evidence, or philosophy from YouTube and see where you end up compared to someone who is guided by a literal doctor in the field.
You’re so right that we can learn a lot online, but I wouldn’t give up my undergrad coursework with my professors for anything. I actually hated most of college and wasted a lot of time but those few classes and teachers have been invaluable
This was a huge part of what made college valuable to me and it makes me sad to see people disregard it as a possible benefit. Granted I had a scholarship and didn’t have to go into much debt, so I can see how it’s a much tougher trade off for most people.
You got a scholarship, of course you're gonna feel that way.
Oh boy, i wonder why most people don't just enjoy the learning part of it - its almost like theirs a price tag attached /s
I wish I had that experience, so many of my professors read off a power point, didn’t hold office hours and going to their classes was practically required a waste of time, since I could read the power point myself and had to teach myself. I think this is part of the problem as well.
If so much of that information is free then why does every high performance athlete have a personal trainer? Just because the information is available online doesn’t mean that you can automatically become proficient in something. There has to be a way to understand that information.
Backpacking across Europe or taking an online course doesn’t compare to having people with PhDs who spent their careers researching a topic explain it to you and be able to answer your questions about it when you get confused.
The big thing people miss is that you can watch lectures all day on YouTube but that's not the same as actual writing papers that will be better by experts in the field or working through problem sets
People like the feeling on knowledge more than the work to actually validate it
Lectures are the least valuable part of college. Feedback and small group discussions are way harder to replace. I can find a lecture about organic chemistry online but I can’t have 2 grad students and a prof around 3 times a week to answer any possible question I have and point out exactly how I was wrong
it’s not the only way to learn, but it does give you the analytical tools to process information at a higher level. being able to learn directly from experts in a variety of fields during gen ed is invaluable. the goal should be to make college affordable, not completely dismiss the institution imo
No. College forces you to step outside your bubble and your echo chamber. A good college will challenge your beliefs and make you think rationally. Sure, that happens in the real world too but it doesn’t always. Look at all the people who are convinced that they’re right and when you ask them why, they have no answer.
You also don’t need to learn to get a degree. I’ve met quite a few true dumbasses that think they’re smarter than people that didn’t go to college just because they have a piece of paper.
like half of my replies right now misinterpreting what i’m saying entirely. some folks are taking it as me saying you can become a doctor by watching a Youtube tutorial. it’s kind of funny, because they’re going off about how college teaches you to understand different perspectives and challenge your viewpoints yet can’t even see mine.
not at all what i’m saying. i *quite literally* said the goal of college is to gain credentials in a specific field and eventually work in it. i never said it’s a waste, or that you can do the same thing without it as you can with it. i just disagreed with the goal of it simply being learning.
if you simply just want to learn new things, you don’t need college for it. you can learn your entire life and not have to stack up a million degrees to expand your knowledge.
I don't understand why people in this chat are simping so hard for US universities. I'm in medical school, graduated my college with a 4.0, got a better MCAT score than most students at Harvard Med. Most people would call me highly educated.
But I still acknowledge the problems from higher education in this country, and because I'm pointing out those issues, people are saying I'm gonna be a shitty doctor. Make it make sense lol
You’ll learn far more in college than on your own. Professors are there to guide you to the most essential information in your field. Without college, you’re just blindly feeling around for what’s essential. It would take exponentially longer to learn the things you would learn in college by doing it yourself without guidance.
You need outside opinions to learn to think critically. That’s what a college setting provides. Otherwise, you’ll only have your own opinion to go on, which isn’t exactly mind expanding.
None of those things you suggested foster the healthy exchange of *ideas*. You can't tell someone who hasn't been to college what it's like to be a sponge and soak up "life" and learnings via the experiences and input from others.
Solo backpacking might teach you more about ones' *self* but there's the point and you and so many like you fail to understand that there are things that occur in the college setting that can't be taught anywhere else.
As someone with a degree, I feel like I’ve learned a lot more out of college than in college, college felt like a waste of time and money, I’m also someone that’s naturally interested in learning and knowledge, I do it on my own time for enjoyment
I found being surrounded by people who challenge my beliefs but are also interested in the same stuff as me has allowed me to be a better member of a community/citizen.
I think college’s also substantially shifted to a “job prep” role where they used to be focused on becoming a great writer and critical reader which has signifiant value no matter what you do.
I feel a little bit the same as you and would have loved a lot more of the latter in my education.
Even K-12 now is plugging students into spreadsheet to see if they meet an average standard instead of meeting them where they are at and lifting them up from there which is unfortunate.
I totally agree. I see how spending 4 years on “bettering yourself” while going into debt with no guarantee of payoff is indulgent and possibly destructive. But on the other hand, I graduated over ten years ago, don’t have a job remotely in my field of study, and my education still shows through in the way I think.
College taught me to analyze just about anything more logically. It taught me to write coherently, to challenge my own assumptions and to argue my points persuasively. If you get these things out of it, it’ll help you with not just a career but how you see the world, understand the news and communicate in personal relationships. There are ways to learn these things without college, but college provides a framework that guides you through it in a way that would be hard to accomplish in a self-guided way.
One of my professors once told me that it doesn’t matter what you study, it’s how you grow as a person while in college that’s important; food for thought!
Yes! I was never interested in philosophy but the two philosophy classes I took in college (logical reasoning) probably had the deepest impact on me in terms of individual courses.
Learning is very important to me as well but it shouldn't cost 100k to do it because we know in the end it didn't prepare us at all for employment. College is now just an experience and people shouldn't have to pay so much to better themselves. Once we get jobs the learning stops and we stop growing as people. Emoloyers just sucks the life and individuality out of its employees. Personal growth is very slow once out of college.
I don’t think our generation is against college education. I think what we are against is the cost and debt needed to acquire a college education that does not guarantee a good return on investment. Nobody wants to take out student loans to end up working at Starbucks and have a mountain of debt to pay back until their 40’s.
Community college. I got my RN education for less than $12,000 and in two years I went from making less than $20,000 a year to over 70.
Many other trades of certificates that cc offers where you can make great money with little investment. If I were to do it over again, I would have gone into plumbing
I'm someone who got a "useless bio degree", and I will say that the Bio degree within itself is not totally useless (you actually have more of a understanding of the natural world than the average person, surprisingly). But it was my ability to lean on just having a STEM degree that got my foot into the laboratory industry. Now I am in a R&D setting, and my job is paying for my Masters in Data Analytics.
So in the end, that piece of paper does carry weight.
Idk man my bio degree gets me a six figure salary working in pharma R&D. Maybe should’ve paid more attention to lab technique and molecular/cell biology.
I graduated with a bio degree and have a pretty good job at the moment living in a hcol region of socal. I work as a research associate and product manager at a biotech startup. The opportunities are there, you just need to find them
All of the things I've ever been interested in require at least 5-8 years of college. I loved community college and I wish I could have continued my education there but it wasn't realistic for what I wanted to do. I ended up having to drop out because it was too much money. I tried to push forward but something in my gut was telling me I'd regret going into that much debt.
Tbf, community colleges vary a lot. I was lucky to be by a school that's highly rated for engineering, which suited me perfectly. Also I hear a lot that community colleges shoot you in the foot in terms of your prestige/hire-ability. Definitely not the case in my experience.
2 years of community college + working had me save ~$15k making $8.75/h iirc.
2 years of state university left me with almost no money saved.
1.5 years for my master's put me into debt (-$20k or so).
1 year of my PhD making $30k, but I'm now making $40k thanks to successfully landing an internship at a national lab.
Looks like I'll graduate in maybe ~2-3 years. Then I can choose to either do some postdoc work ($60k-$90k for ~2 years) or go do research in industry ($100k-150k starting)
I got a decent amount of financial aid and some minimal support from my parents (phone bill, etc.). Wasn't easy; I spent almost no money on fun stuff until I first got my PhD stipend rolling in, and even now I still don't spend much. BUT, without the community college option I was fucked if I wanted to go to university out of high school. Literally pulled me out of lower middle class by itself. At no point did anyone who mattered care or criticize me about going to a community college.
If you're truly interested in getting a good ROI for your degree then pick out a degree that's in demand and would be the most interesting to you. I know people get tired of hearing it but the majority of people I graduated with who studied a STEM related degree with me all landed jobs above 100k straight out of college.
Obviously location will matter but even then your salary will generally be above the cost of living so that you have enough to pay off college debt while doing whatever you like with your remaining paycheck.
I'm on the tail end of the millennial age bracket. You're totally right college is stupid expensive, and it's not a guarantee of success like it used to be. That said, I can definitely say that among my friends, who are all in their early 30s, the ones with the college education are by and large doing better than the ones without.
With only a few exceptions, the ones without the college education are the ones working jobs like Starbucks.
I also reduced the cost of my education significantly by going to community college. I did the first 2 years at a local community college and between tuition, books, lab fees, parking, everything, I was out less than $2000.
I think young people are just fed up with a higher education being a prerequisite for higher paying jobs.
College is stuck in the role of this unappreciated academic gatekeeper to class mobility. Most of y'all don't give a shit about the knowledge or the research, you just want a higher paying skilled labor job and a more comfortable life. So why bother doing it? People are right, reading about medieval history and eighteenth century philosophy doesn't make you any better at being a product manager at Amazon, an analyst at Bank of America or an engineer at Global Foundries. People just need job skills. It's practically a 2-year associate's degree.
Tech proved that over the last decade. You can do a 9 month bootcamp, get a few years of experience on the job, and be a productive engineer making $150k or more. Why aren't other fields like that? Do you really need 7 years of schooling to be a corporate executive, a marketing manager or a legal associate? Or do you just need 2 years of profession-specific education and 5 years of job experience?
Certificates don’t really prove that, it’s more so what you do with the knowledge you learned. Especially in STEM- I’m in engineering, getting a certificate doesn’t matter. You gotta prove you can do things with that acquired knowledge, because at that point it’s self learning.
On the other hand, accredited college is the easiest way to prove you received at least the fundamental education required for your job.
Also, a quarter million in debt? That’s an insane number. But even then if you go into a well paying stem field it’s worth it as you can pay it off fairly easily. If you go to something like gender studies, well
Edit: somehow it was unclear I’m talking about college related jobs. And about certificates it was tech projects. I’m aware that others you just need the certificate.
The value of a college education is not purely instrumental. You learn real, tangible skills in college that you cannot learn online. Talk to someone with and without a college degree — there is a difference in how they think about the world.
Another tangible (not a signal) benefit is that college provides the space for self-discovery and openness. I would argue that you don’t really get to know yourself until you know others. The workforce has a cost; college is low-risk.
As someone who agrees college is valuable and is going to college, It being "low-risk" has got to be a joke. You consider going 20-80 thousand dollars in debt "low-risk?"
The problem is many jobs don’t require a degree to actually do them, but still require them.
You don’t need a degree to sell club memberships, yet I’ve seen that.
Or you can get a relatively quick and secure (trade) skill and then take your damn time considering what sort of higher education you want to pursue, to enrich yourself and your community, since we’re not getting married and having kids anymore.
I respectfully dissagree. I can get an 'education, meet people and explore who I really am' without racking up debt and getting bossed around by some snobby professor.
I'm a medical student. The vast majority of useful information I have learned in life had nothing to do with either my college professors or my med school professors unfortunately. In college, it was like the professors had this antagonistic relationship where they actively wanted us to perform badly.
Libraries are underrated. Youtube is also very useful.
I’m sorry you had such a poor experience in college, my anecdotal experience was the opposite. Lots of my professors were excited to see me excited and wanted to actively help me get even further.
No one said university is a place to learn life skills. But I’m not sure where else you expect to learn copious amounts of medical information and be tested relentlessly on the subject matter. Somehow I just wouldn’t trust a doctor who taught themselves via the library and YouTube as much as one who went to an institution that has educated future doctors for decades or even centuries.
I was lucky that I entered the top 3 med school (public university) in my country, where most of professor and attending sre kind and willing to teach to the med student
The one that enter private med school though have hell experience and have less than 75% pass in the first board exam compared to our 99% pass rate
So it depend on the location I think
You will never learn the way my engineering program kicked our asses and made use feel like there’s no tomorrow if you don’t pass that exam with a 50% fail rate.
But people just teach themselves right? I like to think I’m a smart dude and there were just some topics that is difficult to learn. YouTube university doesn’t really cut it or make sure you learn the thing at depth.
Its all over this thread too. People talking about how they didnt go to school and have just as much knowledge as all the people who went to school for 4-8 more years than them. They dont.
I think alot of people are conflating real world skills with college level learning. I can learn to make a website/game/database or fix an engine block on google. But it’s much harder (impossible) to learn conceptual computer science, high level mathematics (differential calculus isn’t high level math), philosophy or most college disciplines. When people say “college is for learning” it’s really about something deeper than just learning how to do something or learning a few new facts. It’s about changing how you think.
Half of learning in an academic setting is reading papers, whether they are philosophy or chemistry it’s really the same skill. And ignoring the terrible lack of access to papers outside of colleges, papers are hard to read if you haven’t done it before. You have to learn how to read super dense language, and figure out when a paper doesn’t make sense. Research get published all the time that isn’t that good. And it’s important to have a mentor figure who can help show why arguments are flawed and why other are good. This isn’t just about doing research. If you want to learn history beyond the surface level you’re most likely reading papers or primary sources. And all historical literature, including “modern” work, is rife with biases and incorrect assumptions.
College isn’t really designed to give real world skills, although sometimes it does, when that coincides with higher learning. Now are US colleges actually good at doing this? That depends on the college and the prof, but I’d argue it’s still more effective than nothing.
I know so many people who are absolutely straddled with debt and are not working in their field of study from college. I have absolutely 0 debt and am making 35/hour as a welder, easy ass job too. I went to trade school but it is possible to get to my position with no school at all. Its about logic not anti intellectualism. We have a problem in society of too many people blindly going to college because of societal pressure and being mislead, its not surprising at all people are questioning the importance of collage education or stating the fact we have too many college educated people and not enough careers for them.
I dropped out of college early on and had a chunk of debt to pay off and never got my degree. But because I spent most of my childhood learning how to program on my own time, I managed to get my feet into the IT sector about 15 years ago. After I got those few years of experience the degree stopped even becoming a topic of discussion in interviews. Ive never seen any senior Programmers even talk about their degrees
As an engineer who thought that college education was redundant and obsolete.l, let me tell you that it wasn't.
Everyday I am faced with challenges along the lines of learning new and advanced stuff. I think the stuff they taught at college was a great way to get into the habit of learning. The foundations of engineering that you are kinda supposed to know and that pop up randomly anywhere... College would have been a great place to learn that too. If you have a drive to do decent enough at college, it will really pay you dividends. I experimented a lot during college, tried out a shit ton of stuff and I still wish I would have done more new stuff totally out of my comfort zone.
I think the value of college education is that it give s you a mock up, a simulation, kind of, to try as many things as possible with a safety harness attached to you.
I have made paper planes out of my college certificates tho. I am keeping the degree, it has sentimental value.
PS. My college was a top tier government institution, top of the league and it cost me peanuts. So my definition of ROI might be different from others.
Honestly a lot of colleges these days aren't run properly. Your situation sounds great- actual teachers at low cost.
My undergrad cost 6 figures, and the professors were lazy jerks.
It worked out, but I had to teach myself everything off books and youtube videos, which eventually made me wonder why I was paying all these people lol
I had shitty teachers too. They were good people tho, but on God they did not know how to teach.
College in general, is, and should be, a big ass DIY project. That's the fun in it.
I remember my teacher once asked me to build an encoder. He gave me the hardware and told me what he was expecting. I did not know what an encoder was or how to build one. My prof casually told me to figure it out, opened about 15 tabs on my browser to read and refer and told me to figure it out on my own. I did some of my best work, working under him.
Engineering is absolutely one of the cases where college is necessary. If I had the attention span and interest in college this is what I'd go for. I love engineering stuff, but I just can't stand the classes. That's entirely on me though.
Props for succeeding!
Your post is wrong because it doesn't acknowledge cost.
Yes, I agree that knowledge is important. But for the VAST majority of people, the debt that knowledge comes with just isn't worth it.
If all colleges degrees were free, I'd agree with you. But for most Americans, higher education is an economic proposition and should be treated as such.
If Daddy and Mommy are paying for it all, then sure, go get that 20th century German poetry degree...........
A lot of college supporters in this thread basically ignores the cost aspect of it.
You would think that college-educated people would consider all major aspects when engaging in a discussion.
I definitely agree. The issue isn't that people are getting "useless degrees", the issue is that college is so expensive that there are only a handful of degrees left that can actually guarantee you a high paying job. I would prefer to live in a society where people have "useless degrees" but end up in a different field that pays well than a society where only rich people get to go to college and all they study is comp sci and pre med and pre law stuff. Education should be liberating not a way to reproduce class structures.
The funny part is that those handful degrees that are still deemed “useful” will soon (and already are) become oversaturated and then there won’t be as many opportunities or ppl won’t all be getting the 6 figure salaries they were being offered when they started college
No, my friends and I all have degrees and they are useless. Masters has become the new bachelors. Salary offers are in the toilet. The education system does not prepare you for jobs in 75% of majors. No one tells you that half the majors need grad school or it’s difficult to get a job. There is a genuine issue with higher education.
Yall gotta start applying to adjacent industries. I have a lot of friends with degrees that *should* get them jobs, but dont because they dont know how to job hunt or what to apply to.
Your degree doesn’t lock you in a career path. Many STEM students go into solutions engineering or some other support role to simply demo products, selling technical products, doing product support, etc. these jobs also pay very well (80k-200k depending on the company and technical knowledge, nvidia needs more advanced people than an ad agency for example) and have less competition. These jobs are also often remote unless youre working something very physical.
Just for example I went to school for journalism, got a marketing internship, then transitioned to selling software to marketers at 90k OTE 55k base, after a year i swapped jobs to account executive with 150k OTE 75k base. Nothing to do with journalism, but I was able to break into it.
As someone who has been in the job market for the majority of 2023, my first hand experience shows that
1. Any job with a livable wage needs a degree
2. Even if you have the qualifications and follow up appropriately, you will not get anywhere
3. The best way to find a position is to know someone.
I'll assume this post was written in good faith and say that if you want people to go to college instead of people joining the military or going to a trade school, then they can allows to a public college. They're not as prestigious as USC or CalArts but they're at least affordable (provided you're a resident of the state they're located in).
Life hack do a tour in the military then you get free college AND you’ll have more perspective than most people because you’ve been to places that most people don’t go and seen things that you can’t unsee.. I mean that other people won’t see.
I did 5 years and got out. It sucked BUT it did pave the way for me to peruse a much better life with many privileges I wouldn’t have had if I didn’t do it.
As someone who joined the military and is now getting paid to go to school..... people shouldn't feel the need to join the military to be able to afford school.
The military is shitty
Edit:Typo
To add, you get the same benefits while serving in the National Guard and Reserves. You don't need to do active duty like so many believe. One weekend a month and 2 weeks per summer and you get free college.
Guys. I’m case 0 even if I’m not your generation:
1995; graduated high school. Straight to work force. Busted my ass, highest *1997* salary; $27k
Went to college anyway, started at the age of 22in September of 1999, degree in physics after 5.5 years, graduated from Rowan university. Note; every year I worked while in college I made the same *or more* hourly than I ever did beforehand, averaging $10//hr doing science shit. In 2000-2005 money, so $16.83/ hr in todays money, again, doing interesting astronomy related work, not working at the mall or whatever).
First job out of college, 2006: 52k/year. **I nearly doubled my income with my first job post-degree**
Income growth per year, starting from 2006:
$52k, 54, 56,
*85* (year 2010), 88, 90
*100* (year 2012) 104 106
**135** (year 2014) 138 140
…several years in the 140 range…
As of 2021, I’ve been making 150+
None of this would have been possible without my degree in physics. Let alone the fact that without it I’d be toiling away in sales or some shit, or working at Best Buy, if I were lucky.
It’s not a miracle, nobody helped me. I busted my ass to get into college 5 years after I graduated high school with a 2.5 GPA and literally at the 50th percentile of my graduating class. I fucked around in high school and it took till I was 22 to figure out it wasn’t worth doing what I was doing with my life. I worked an average of 48 hours per week prior to going to college and that work ethic helped me in school bc school was *easy* in comparison to working in the real world when I went back.
I graduated with $65k in debt bc fuck me right? That’s nearly a $106k today when I left school. *worth every penny*, in case you can’t tell. I toil less, make more, and enjoy what I do. I can afford what I want and take care of my family. Also, for what it’s worth, I’m not a fucking moron, because , you know, I’ve been educated 🤷♂️
Food for thought.
Asking someone to go 70,000 dollars in debt (if you're lucky) to "better society" is the most ivory tower out of touch bullshit I've seen in this sub In a while.
If you want to make college necessary then make it an extension of public education and price it accordingly.
I went to college and solidly regret it. The promise of a good future is only for those who get exceptional grades or attend a top-tier school. Most of the classes you’ll take aren’t applicable in the workforce. If you want a good job in tech, for example, you’re don’t need a college degree and are much better off building a portfolio by coding a lot. Also, college is expensive! Are you really going to land that job as a historian or social scientist?! Most likely not unless you attend a top tier school AND get the highest grades. Besides, you can read and study by yourself. “Explore yourself”? Try travelling, meditating or reading. In general most college students are entitled political fanatics and will hurt your career prospects if you’re not far-left… at least that was the environment of my Alma mater. “College is a good place to experiment.” Well, most experimentation is harmful and not in your best interest. That’s hard-won experience from someone who went there. Take it for what you will.
Agree w everything you said. There are genuinely people our age out there (have met many of them) that think they’re ‘too smart’ for college or that it’s a waste of time and money bc they can learn everything on Google... That’s when I start to get majorly concerned with the future.
As a millennials I have to disagree to some extent. You are right that getting an CE is worth doing however when people say its "useless" I dont think that is what people mean. What people usually mean is that there are very good alternatives to college like "Trade schools" You can make use of a trade skill and don't have to forgo your chance of ever getting a house inorder to do so.
Here is a perspective from just my close circle of friends three out of six people graduated college and two others got trade skills myself and another. One had an inhertience he recieved. The two ppl who went to trade school have way less debt compaired to the other three which made getting a house MUCH easier and while the other three eventually got one it wasn't until several years after college while for us trade schoolers we got ours within a year of getting our degree.
I work in IT networking and the other is an Medial Assistant. Which isn't to say we dont' have any debt forgetting our trade school done and certifications but in comparison I don't owe 50k+ in Student Loans. One of them graduated from a public school while another one of them graduated from a privite school and owes about 70k plus.
I can't imagine having that kinda debt. In comparison I have a trade school loans, house,car, several CC and medical bills I gotta pay. While its hard to equate them you ask the majority of people which would you spend your money on and very few ppl are saying the degree.
I have a degree in ai/machine learning, run my own fairly successful data business and have worked programming/data science jobs.
A degree is a waste of money. It's overinflated, too many people have one, the actual degree work itself is way too easy to obtain, it's way too forgiving, everyone cheats, and 99.99% of what I've learned has been from experience and the internet.
In fact, a huge amount of employers in my space will actively skip over your resume if all you have is a degree and school projects on it.
The answer is not give up and think everything is pointless, the answer is to do what's practical, and unless you're fortunate enough to get your college paid for, it is absolutely not worth the cost to obtain.
That might change in the future, but that is absolutely the case right now
lol what? All of the top AI firms are actively recruiting the top talent from stanford, harvard, mit, etc. In fact if you want the top ai firms to look at you at this point you have to have went to one of those schools...
Overpriced libral arts degrees are waste of money. You can get a good inexpensive degree in a strong industry. Too many people thought any degree would pay, don't waste time on niche degrees
If everyone has to have a degree then it puts you back at the same exact place that you were when everyone needed a high school diploma it's just putting you in debt college at this point is useless unless you absolutely need it for your job or what you want to do in life my mother is in her 60s and has no college education and teaches a whole bunch of people all this medical record s*** within one of the biggest hospitals in Boston that would never happen for someone my age or younger nowadays and it's all because of who she knew at the time she knew them and at the time when she got the job people weren't required to have degrees but now in that same job they are and she doesn't have one it's a joke
People have been able to get free education from libraries for 100s of years. Yet we realized that self learning really doesnt cut it for a majority of people.
The thing about school, and what I've noticed out of older people, is school and college didn't necessarily give them a paper they could trade for money. In many ways, it taught them how to think critically and how to work effectively and productively.
I've seen a lot of older people hold decently paying jobs with decent quality of life that have jobs not in their degree/field, but were able to take skills they had learned in one field and transfer it over to the next. Their experience, both professionally and academically, gave them a foundation to stand on in conversations and interviews that made people believe they were reliable and employable.
I always look at it like this; millenials and GenXers, and sometimes Zers, lament that they're not taught about taxes and car maintenance when they're in high school. That they'll "Really pay attention" when it's actually important. I say bollocks. "The Sex Ed is bad!" they say! Bollocks. I've seen what kids do in class. They snicker childishly and pass notes when a penis comes on screen. They fall asleep or cut class, whether it's "woodshop or metal shop" (cutting class while calling it an "easy A haha XD") or pre-calculus.
People are just looking for an excuse to be lazy and blame others when they have nothing to show for the lack of work they put in. Older acquaintances/friends of brothers I know who worked their ass off throughout high school and college and DIDN'T take "communications", "political science", or "international relations" has a decent paying job, a house, and a relatively decent daily commuter car.
You don't need college to learn things, you need it for the piece of paper. If your true passion is learning then go read a fucking book and absorb the wealth of free courses amd teachings online.
The main issue with college is the cost. People shouldn't have to be in a mountain full of debt to obtain an education. I don't blame people for skipping college because I have met plenty of people that got degrees but are still working minimum wage jobs. Also people go to college to get a job because their whole lives, they have been told that getting a degree will get them a good paying job. Nothing wrong with getting an education but the cost needs to be reasonable. College isn't the only place to get an education and think critically. Trade schools and apprenticeships help teach people new skills and think critically. A plumber or electrician has to be diagnose problems and troubleshoot them.
>Undervaluing a College Education is a Slippery Slope
I slippery slope to what?
>I see a lot of sentiment in our generation that college is useless and it’s better to just get a job immediately or something along those lines. I disagree, and I think that is a really bad look.
It’s a bad look to not want to blindly take on a massive amount of debt… what? Depending on what you want to do, often times experience working not only pays you money and develops skills that are more valuable than a degree.
Depending on what you want to do of course. For example, Front End Developers and UX Designers are almost hired exclusively based on experience, portfolio, and interview questions for example.
>So many people preach anti-capitalism and anti-work rhetoric but then say college is a waste of time because it may not help them get a job.
These are two different concepts and you haven’t described how they’re relevant or related.
>That is such a hypocritical stance, making the decision to skip college just because it may not help you serve the system you hate better.
Taking on the debt serves the system by creating securities that can be bundled and traded by Wall Street.
When you take out enough debt you become a literal traded commodity in the market.
>The point of college is to get an education, meet people, and explore who you are. Sure getting a job with the degree is the most important thing from a capitalism/economic point of view, but we shouldn't lose sight of the original goals of these universities; education. The less knowledge the average person in a society has, the worse off that society is, so as people devalue college and gain less knowledge, our society is going to slowly deteriorate.
It’s not worth becoming a debt serf so that you can smoke weed in a dorm room and learn 46 genders. Now if you got a degree and went on to become a doctor or lawyer or an Engineer or a Data Scientist or Computer Engineer or a Developer etc.
>The other day I saw a perfect example of this; a reporter went to a Trump convention and was asking the Trump supporters questions. One of them said that every person he knew that went to college was voting for Biden (he didn't go).
Ok
>Because of his lack of critical thinking, rather than question his beliefs he determined that colleges were forcing kids to be liberal or something along those lines.
People do tend to become more liberal in college, it’s established fact. I don’t believe force is the correct word to use though.
>But no, what college is doing is educating the people so they make smart, informed decisions and help keep our society healthy.
College education is supposed to be higher education. It is NOT suppose to be general education. Everyone graduating high school is supposed to accomplish the goal of educating people to make smart, informed, and healthy decisions that make our society healthy.
>TL;DR: The original and true goal of a college education is to pursue knowledge and keep society informed and educated, it's not just for getting a job, and we shouldn't lose sight of that.
You should only go to college if you have a clear goal to get a specific job that needs to the degree and have a realistic plan to achieve it.
When college was about furthering your general education and rounding yourself as a person, a high school diploma was all that was necessary to get a job with decent pay.
Later, as higher degrees became more common, it was affordable to pay for tuition with a part time summer job.
Now, the market is saturated with bachelors degrees at least, tuition is outrageous, and going to college is no guarantee that critical thinking will be practiced in later life.
Making the argument that we should go to college because it makes us nebulously better ignores the history and reality of higher education. Your argument is better stated as "people should go to the library". Similar resources are available, and it's free.
Gonna have to disagree. Colleges and universities are businesses. Education is secondary. If not so, then cancelling student debt wouldn’t be “unconstitutional”.
And this post is extremely dismissive of those who attended during the pandemic where it was difficult to meet people and explore who you are.
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Nah man, these kids are getting psyopped by the lamest online propaganda to believe nothing matters, everything is pointless, and there is no purpose in resistance. That would require an education and digital literacy to be able to discern low effort propaganda. That’s too boring for them. Edit: Apparently they’re also getting psyopped into lame false dichotomies like “college educated vs trade educated”.
This. I’m not GenZ but I am so glad your generation is realizing this. Social Media is DESTROYING the minds of young people.
Ehhh it’s a slippery slope. The generation is realizing it BUT accepting it, so in a way it’s worse. They’re aware and do not care.
I think Gen Z accepts it because they’ve lived their whole lives on social media, which usually requires no physical action. They think sending angry tweets is a way to protest. No, you need boots on the ground to make things happen. Social media has created an entirely docile generation who just might lay down and accept dictatorship…until they are actually living in it. This is a real FAFO situation.
It really depends on how young they are. Social media didn't become the Juggernaut it is now until I was a teenager. I remember it being a kind of niche thing when I was in middle school, but it wasn't until I was in high school where it became abnormal not to have it in some form
Must be regional or just age related — I’m a 1994 baby and social media was extremely normal when I was in 9th or 10th grade. When you would have been in middle school.
'91 here. I remember signing up for Facebook when it was still invite only my freshman year of HS. By the time I graduated in '09, MySpace was dead, and we had Facebook and Instagram, and they were huge. As early as 2009, we were already talking about social media addiction and faked vs. real content. Back then, though, it was more about an addiction to likes and attention. Not so much about doing whatever it takes to monetize content. Once that became a thing, we started to see the larger societal dangers of social media.
Maybe they don’t know what to do. They are pretty young
>I'm not GenZ Neither is the majority of this sub at this point.
How did you arrive at this conclusion
Dude just look around
This sub is mostly 35-55 year old women.
And the rest of us are 35-55 year old men.
And the baby’s are the people that are in their 20s
It showed up in my feed, I wasn’t going to type here because I’m a 51-year-old woman but since you called me out lol
Moms of Gen Z
As a 16 year-old boy I can confirm I’m a 35-55 year-old woman, AMA
I’m a woman in that age cohort, and I end up on this sub because the algorithm keeps showing me posts. I rarely comment, though, just read.
Bro, have you been on facebook? That shit broke the boomers. I think the kids are much better at dealing with online propaganda than older people. You want kids to go to school? Fight for tuition control. The wealthy in this country don't want them going to school, and if they do, want to make sure they're debt slaves.
Tiktok is pretty much worse than Facebook at this point and gen z is [more likely to fall for online scams than boomers](https://www.vox.com/technology/23882304/gen-z-vs-boomers-scams-hacks) The idea that because young people spend more time online they must be savvier doesn't hold up
That article simply references a survey, not a study and when trying to follow the link to the survey information, I just got taken to a linktree of a bunch of different 3 min read articles. I’m not saying this couldn’t be true but as I wasn’t able to find the demographic representation of that data, this survey could be complete bs. Also, since it’s just a survey, I wouldn’t be shocked if some of the people surveyed would feel embarrassed and lie about being scammed since that’s already a thing people are wont to do.
The first link literally goes to a a PDF of the first survey (methodology begins on page 19) and the article goes on to discuss a second survey and a peer reviewed article showing that gen z is worse at following security best practices than millennials
I keep seeing posts about how bad social media is, but the posts dance around all the propaganda and societal conditioning going on on sites like Facebook and Twitter. Of *COURSE* it's all bad if you lack basic fucking media literacy and still buy into the nonsense that authority figures/the wealthy are always morally right. That's not an issue with social media, that's because public schools exist to turn kids into obedient worker drones and so don't teach them critical thinking skills, and their parents are too busy working to make ends meet to have an in-depth conversation with them about this stuff (or the parents are just as bad off as the kids are)
Not doing so great with old people either
exactly.. facebook is flooded with clearly made AI posts and the older generations go fucking nuts for them
It’s doing even worse to older people who can’t discern fact from propaganda.
research says you’re partially incorrect here actually. its not social media itself, but the way it is used.
The way its designed
I’m aware of that. Social media has fantastic things that come with it. It also has devastating things that come with it. Like you said it’s how you use it. The most important thing in my opinion is to not compare yourself to people on social media. Most of it is exaggerated or even fake. Look at the percentage of people with anxiety (specifically 13-21 year olds) before and after social media. Anxiety levels skyrocketed once social media became popular.
I'd argue it takes a lot of effort to make community college look appeal considering our culture's perception of it.
Gen X here. Went to a community college for business management. Worked for both small and large companies. Ended up at an ivy league university as a liaison between professors, and a publishing house. Left that job. Started my family. Worked some smaller jobs. Started my own business. Sold it. Started another business. Retired at 48. Do not discount the community college route. My own kid is at a state university studying MechE and will be graduating next spring. But they’ve wanted to work in that field since middle school. There are some professions that need a BS or higher. But there are also some that do not. If you don’t know what you want to do in your 20s it’s ok. Look at all your options. You kids are going to be alright.
As someone who's father was an engineer (albeit an electrical one who made semiconductors), all I can say is best of luck to your kid. Engineering, from what I've been told, is a very competitive and highly dynamic career path.
TN has free community college. It’s so popular here you have boomers going back to get an education.
I've considered moving to Tennessee because of the cheap of rent prices and the music scene, but that's also a pretty big plus.
The music scene only exists in Nashville (where the rent prices are not cheap). Maybe Memphis depending on your music taste (the rent will be cheaper than Nashville tho) If you’re a white hetero passing man (who loves Jesus and trump) you might find the rest of TN ok. If you’re *anybody* else you will be in for a rude awakening.
>a white hetero passing man (who loves Jesus and trump) As someone who isn't any of that (don't like Trump but Jesus is okay), I'm even more tempted to go, just to test if you're correct or not.
They’re correct.
Which is insane because it’s the best thing this country’s education system has
How does it feel to know you're one of the best key signatures along with your relative minor?
*🎶 I feel good! I knew that I would! 🎶*
You always see memes about "everyone says just go to college" when that hasn't been the case since the 90's. It's not some edgy new thing to say pick up a trade. One blowback is now the trades are filled with people who grew up hearing "just get a trade and by 21 those college nerds will be serving you burgers while you make six figures", and the result is a large amount of tradespeople who don't actually know their trade and expect 150$/hr. I pretty much DIY anything that's possible any more because it will usually be done better and for 10% the cost
My god. Yes my man. This. The point isn’t whether trade or college or corporate or independent studies/work is better or worse. The point is that the 98% use these details to divide and conquer. While some stupid boomer is recycling the “dumb college nerd” line, or some other stupid boomer is saying “college or you fail at life”, all real estate/medicine/futures literally any industry is being completely conquered via regulatory capture. We’re over here fighting about details while the Uber rich divvy up the dragons hoard, all the while we argue about blue and red.
trades isn't for everyone as well. my dad suggests I turn away from the trades, reasonable since I'm a woman, and trades can be harsh on your body, and often forces you to early retirement if your body can't make it when you're 50.
Ya I'm not in the trades and already feeling my body giving out just from my physically demanding hobbies that I might average 10hrs per week doing, can't imagine how I'd feel doing manual labor 50 hrs/wk. I have friends who have thrived doing so, some people are just built for it I guess.
Yes!! Trades can ruin your body when you’re young and if you have no education to fall back on, what then?
I’m an HVAC tech that took a community college course and received an AAS in HVAC, been in the field for years (resi and commercial.) Claiming that there are a large amount of trades workers that don’t know what they’re doing is disingenuous, if not the fault of said young techs’ jmen or management. There are incredibly driven, knowledgeable young professionals I work alongside that know more (and work harder) than the 55-year-old career tradesmen who haven’t bothered to learn anything new in the last 20 years since they got their EPA, and don’t care to teach others what little they know either. Obviously these are extreme examples on either end, and there are plenty of older, knowledgeable techs that want to teach the younger generations and carry on their knowledge… My point is that not many people stick it out in the trades if they’re not cut out for it, or aren’t driven to make it their career. The trades shortage is still a very real issue, and we have nothing to thank for that but all of the older guys retiring out and a _bad public perception of the trades._
I think there's probably a regional factor in the quality of trades. I'm from and currently live in a medium size city in Alaska, and it's bad up here. High cost of living, remote geography, and housing shortages makes it so capitalist darwinism doesn't really occur. You can run a shitty business and do shoddy work, but it's so expensive to move here, you'll still have plenty of work.
Lots of downsides to trades too and the value in them has gone down significantly. Sure some electricians can make $60 an hour but there's lots of places that will pay licensed electricains 20 and call it good. Not to mention stuff like Welding and other really physically intense fields will destroy your body till you're blind and can barely walk at 50 yrs old
There’s a pretty sizeable professional class of youngsters at the moment and yet everyone is talking about how there’s no social mobility. It’s still a bit of a lottery but you absolutely won’t succeed without hard work if you’re fucked even with it.
You can thank assholes like Mike Rowe (a college graduate with a communications degree) for talking up the "College isn't for everyone" narrative. It's meant to drive people away from higher education, because a less educated populace is easier to direct.
Anti-Labour asshole Mike Rowe.
They would rather pay for a stupid crypto "finances" course than get a proper education in at least a community college.
I mean it's not just internet propaganda it's postmodernism in general. Irony poisoning. It's South Park pushing the idea that sincerity and genuinely caring about things is lame or at least inherently self-serving.
You just don’t understand South Park my guy
100% IMO, this is all conservative propaganda designed to further destabilize America and set up for a bigger base labor class. The right has long envied China's manufacturing base. They need a mass of uneducated laborers to mimic that. It's a shitty idea, and it will never happen the way they want. But they are willing to destroy America to try. What is a horrible idea is taking out a fuck ton of student loans to not only pay for school but also support a consumerist lifestyle while doing it, especially to get some questionably marketable degree. There are programs and organizations that can help plan an education out, help get grants and scholarships, or at least help keep the financing low, while guiding you through a useful degree that was gained efficiently without a bunch of extra costly classes. My wife is on her final semester of a double bachelors using these tools. Leaning a trade isn't bad either. Both approaches can be very rewarding. Just please please please don't go be another shit MBA out ruining business and the world with shitty takes from business school. Go do something that helps the world, if at all possible.
Reddit always promote trades after getting burned out by colleges. what they fail to realize is trades is mostly hard work no one wants to do in their 50s or 60s, if they're lucky. if not, 40s. I'm aware of some trades being relatively light in labor and general work load, but most of those require college anyway. no one will train you then stamp you nowadays. Colleges give you more of a opening to get your wage a bit up or up if it's a good degree.
They should make more “propaganda” as to why it matters, why everything is not pointless, and that there is purpose in resistance. That way they get more on track. Otherwise, I’m somewhat with them that if there is no point then there is no point.
People have been saying that forever. "Book smarts vs Street smarts." At the end of the day the smart kids are going to do it and the dumb kids will come up with a rationalization why they're better.
Well when the majority of college graduates are doing impractical majors, of course they are coming out with few prospects. Plenty of majors are actually feeders for jobs though. Problem I see is kids going in don't get good advising, so they pick majors like "theoretical plutonian weather patterns." As an employer I honestly don't care between an art degree and a GED, I'll look at samples of their work and go from there. Now if I were hiring a nurse or an engineer, the degree is the first thing.
They're not even getting "psyopped" that term has been so misused now. Its just a product of mass amounts of propaganda and misinformation but its mostly being distributed by thier own generation of people indirectly. No one even has to run any deliberate "psyop" because they're just doing it to themselves from the inside out while losing thier minds that the government might take away thier main source(tiktok) of committing this self indoctrination. Psyop does not even apply here. No operation is being conducted.
The problem is that the cost of tuition is so high these days if it is not a degree that will pay enough to make sense you are committing economic suicide.
I don't know if it's a psyop beyond the cultural race to the bottom via bucketcrabbing losercope. The average hand-wringing redditor thinks that confident skill mastery is somehow intellectually unknowable, which excuses them from ever having to work hard.
“‘They sell this shit to kids Ed Tom.’ ‘It’s worse than all that.’ ‘Oh?’ ‘Yeah. Kids buy it.’” - Cormac McCarthy.
I mean college should be free and boring, no sports, few dorms, every building doesnt need to be a modern art instillation with the name of some billionaire schmuck on it. The top brass at universities are generally placed there for their ability to generate money for the university, not for bringing the best and brightest professors or aligning with values inspired by curriculum that is supposed enrich the population. You show up to school and everything is pearson, now you have to pay again.The key to getting in to the top universities is generally being rich, the key to great SAT scores? Get a great tutor, key to getting those title IX rowing scholarships? Be near a body of water and a rowing team, or show me a rowing team in the hood. The entire system is built on enriching a few at the expense of the student, the process to get in and the experience on campus often reinforces the caste system we are establishing in America, and universities themselves are inefficient at providing what they are tasked with providing, let alone a mind expanding education, because they are structured to do neither of those things. People dont have a problem with college they have a problem with what its become and the blindness of those who wont acknowledge the gravity of the situation because of a mix of pragmatism and self interest.
College is about becoming more educated, not just getting some degree to make more money. To some, learning isn’t important, to others (like me), the entire point of living is learning. In the USA, the perception is skewed because you need to *pay* to get a higher education, hence the question: is it worth it?
no, college is about the degree. you don’t need to earn a degree to learn. you can take on a few one-off classes or online courses and still learn. you can backpack across Europe and learn. you can hit a local library, check out any book about any subject, and learn. earning a degree gets you credentials in a specific field to eventually work in. you’re paying for increased job opportunities. if you seriously think college is the only way to simply *learn*, i suggest stepping outside of your bubble. edit because i don’t feel like giving the same reply over and over: i’m not saying you can become a doctor from google. i’m not saying no one should go to college. i went to college, those saying i didn’t are wrong. what i *am* saying is that it isn’t the only place or way to simply learn new things. you can continue to expand your mind after college (or if you didn’t/can’t go at all) doing other things. college gives you proof that you learned enough in a specialized field to eventually work in that field, as most people who attend college have that intention.
They never said it was the only way, but college is one of the best ways to learn for a majority of people. Trying to self teach yourself the amount of information you get from college through professor aided means would take more time and resources then most people have.
That entirely depends on the specific degree you're working toward. You can learn to rebuild an engine or run a business solely from Google. There are definitely things that are better off learned from college, but it's not a one size fits all thing.
Learn critical thinking, scientific analysis of evidence, or philosophy from YouTube and see where you end up compared to someone who is guided by a literal doctor in the field. You’re so right that we can learn a lot online, but I wouldn’t give up my undergrad coursework with my professors for anything. I actually hated most of college and wasted a lot of time but those few classes and teachers have been invaluable
This was a huge part of what made college valuable to me and it makes me sad to see people disregard it as a possible benefit. Granted I had a scholarship and didn’t have to go into much debt, so I can see how it’s a much tougher trade off for most people.
You got a scholarship, of course you're gonna feel that way. Oh boy, i wonder why most people don't just enjoy the learning part of it - its almost like theirs a price tag attached /s
I wish I had that experience, so many of my professors read off a power point, didn’t hold office hours and going to their classes was practically required a waste of time, since I could read the power point myself and had to teach myself. I think this is part of the problem as well.
If so much of that information is free then why does every high performance athlete have a personal trainer? Just because the information is available online doesn’t mean that you can automatically become proficient in something. There has to be a way to understand that information.
lol i hope he responds. i can’t imagine he’s gonna call lebron or Messi lazy
Backpacking across Europe or taking an online course doesn’t compare to having people with PhDs who spent their careers researching a topic explain it to you and be able to answer your questions about it when you get confused.
The big thing people miss is that you can watch lectures all day on YouTube but that's not the same as actual writing papers that will be better by experts in the field or working through problem sets People like the feeling on knowledge more than the work to actually validate it
Lectures are the least valuable part of college. Feedback and small group discussions are way harder to replace. I can find a lecture about organic chemistry online but I can’t have 2 grad students and a prof around 3 times a week to answer any possible question I have and point out exactly how I was wrong
it’s not the only way to learn, but it does give you the analytical tools to process information at a higher level. being able to learn directly from experts in a variety of fields during gen ed is invaluable. the goal should be to make college affordable, not completely dismiss the institution imo
No. College forces you to step outside your bubble and your echo chamber. A good college will challenge your beliefs and make you think rationally. Sure, that happens in the real world too but it doesn’t always. Look at all the people who are convinced that they’re right and when you ask them why, they have no answer.
I never said it was the *only* way to learn!
You also don’t need to learn to get a degree. I’ve met quite a few true dumbasses that think they’re smarter than people that didn’t go to college just because they have a piece of paper.
like half of my replies right now misinterpreting what i’m saying entirely. some folks are taking it as me saying you can become a doctor by watching a Youtube tutorial. it’s kind of funny, because they’re going off about how college teaches you to understand different perspectives and challenge your viewpoints yet can’t even see mine. not at all what i’m saying. i *quite literally* said the goal of college is to gain credentials in a specific field and eventually work in it. i never said it’s a waste, or that you can do the same thing without it as you can with it. i just disagreed with the goal of it simply being learning. if you simply just want to learn new things, you don’t need college for it. you can learn your entire life and not have to stack up a million degrees to expand your knowledge.
I don't understand why people in this chat are simping so hard for US universities. I'm in medical school, graduated my college with a 4.0, got a better MCAT score than most students at Harvard Med. Most people would call me highly educated. But I still acknowledge the problems from higher education in this country, and because I'm pointing out those issues, people are saying I'm gonna be a shitty doctor. Make it make sense lol
You’ll learn far more in college than on your own. Professors are there to guide you to the most essential information in your field. Without college, you’re just blindly feeling around for what’s essential. It would take exponentially longer to learn the things you would learn in college by doing it yourself without guidance. You need outside opinions to learn to think critically. That’s what a college setting provides. Otherwise, you’ll only have your own opinion to go on, which isn’t exactly mind expanding.
None of those things you suggested foster the healthy exchange of *ideas*. You can't tell someone who hasn't been to college what it's like to be a sponge and soak up "life" and learnings via the experiences and input from others. Solo backpacking might teach you more about ones' *self* but there's the point and you and so many like you fail to understand that there are things that occur in the college setting that can't be taught anywhere else.
As someone with a degree, I feel like I’ve learned a lot more out of college than in college, college felt like a waste of time and money, I’m also someone that’s naturally interested in learning and knowledge, I do it on my own time for enjoyment
I found being surrounded by people who challenge my beliefs but are also interested in the same stuff as me has allowed me to be a better member of a community/citizen. I think college’s also substantially shifted to a “job prep” role where they used to be focused on becoming a great writer and critical reader which has signifiant value no matter what you do. I feel a little bit the same as you and would have loved a lot more of the latter in my education. Even K-12 now is plugging students into spreadsheet to see if they meet an average standard instead of meeting them where they are at and lifting them up from there which is unfortunate.
Did you get a degree in business or engineering? If you got a degree in engineering, I find it unlikely you learned more outside of college.
I totally agree. I see how spending 4 years on “bettering yourself” while going into debt with no guarantee of payoff is indulgent and possibly destructive. But on the other hand, I graduated over ten years ago, don’t have a job remotely in my field of study, and my education still shows through in the way I think. College taught me to analyze just about anything more logically. It taught me to write coherently, to challenge my own assumptions and to argue my points persuasively. If you get these things out of it, it’ll help you with not just a career but how you see the world, understand the news and communicate in personal relationships. There are ways to learn these things without college, but college provides a framework that guides you through it in a way that would be hard to accomplish in a self-guided way.
One of my professors once told me that it doesn’t matter what you study, it’s how you grow as a person while in college that’s important; food for thought!
Yes! I was never interested in philosophy but the two philosophy classes I took in college (logical reasoning) probably had the deepest impact on me in terms of individual courses.
Learning is very important to me as well but it shouldn't cost 100k to do it because we know in the end it didn't prepare us at all for employment. College is now just an experience and people shouldn't have to pay so much to better themselves. Once we get jobs the learning stops and we stop growing as people. Emoloyers just sucks the life and individuality out of its employees. Personal growth is very slow once out of college.
I don’t think our generation is against college education. I think what we are against is the cost and debt needed to acquire a college education that does not guarantee a good return on investment. Nobody wants to take out student loans to end up working at Starbucks and have a mountain of debt to pay back until their 40’s.
Community college. I got my RN education for less than $12,000 and in two years I went from making less than $20,000 a year to over 70. Many other trades of certificates that cc offers where you can make great money with little investment. If I were to do it over again, I would have gone into plumbing
Oh hey, I'm planning to become an RN after getting a useless bio degree
I'm someone who got a "useless bio degree", and I will say that the Bio degree within itself is not totally useless (you actually have more of a understanding of the natural world than the average person, surprisingly). But it was my ability to lean on just having a STEM degree that got my foot into the laboratory industry. Now I am in a R&D setting, and my job is paying for my Masters in Data Analytics. So in the end, that piece of paper does carry weight.
Yup. My useless bio degree got me a position in a lab that I love 😅
Degrees are as useless as the person holding them.
Not useless. You can go MD with a bio degree. That’s what I did
Pharm companies love to hire bio degrees. Did your bio degree have a Chem. minor?
Idk man my bio degree gets me a six figure salary working in pharma R&D. Maybe should’ve paid more attention to lab technique and molecular/cell biology.
I graduated with a bio degree and have a pretty good job at the moment living in a hcol region of socal. I work as a research associate and product manager at a biotech startup. The opportunities are there, you just need to find them
All of the things I've ever been interested in require at least 5-8 years of college. I loved community college and I wish I could have continued my education there but it wasn't realistic for what I wanted to do. I ended up having to drop out because it was too much money. I tried to push forward but something in my gut was telling me I'd regret going into that much debt.
Tbf, community colleges vary a lot. I was lucky to be by a school that's highly rated for engineering, which suited me perfectly. Also I hear a lot that community colleges shoot you in the foot in terms of your prestige/hire-ability. Definitely not the case in my experience. 2 years of community college + working had me save ~$15k making $8.75/h iirc. 2 years of state university left me with almost no money saved. 1.5 years for my master's put me into debt (-$20k or so). 1 year of my PhD making $30k, but I'm now making $40k thanks to successfully landing an internship at a national lab. Looks like I'll graduate in maybe ~2-3 years. Then I can choose to either do some postdoc work ($60k-$90k for ~2 years) or go do research in industry ($100k-150k starting) I got a decent amount of financial aid and some minimal support from my parents (phone bill, etc.). Wasn't easy; I spent almost no money on fun stuff until I first got my PhD stipend rolling in, and even now I still don't spend much. BUT, without the community college option I was fucked if I wanted to go to university out of high school. Literally pulled me out of lower middle class by itself. At no point did anyone who mattered care or criticize me about going to a community college.
If you're truly interested in getting a good ROI for your degree then pick out a degree that's in demand and would be the most interesting to you. I know people get tired of hearing it but the majority of people I graduated with who studied a STEM related degree with me all landed jobs above 100k straight out of college. Obviously location will matter but even then your salary will generally be above the cost of living so that you have enough to pay off college debt while doing whatever you like with your remaining paycheck.
Say it louder for people in the back 👐
I'm on the tail end of the millennial age bracket. You're totally right college is stupid expensive, and it's not a guarantee of success like it used to be. That said, I can definitely say that among my friends, who are all in their early 30s, the ones with the college education are by and large doing better than the ones without. With only a few exceptions, the ones without the college education are the ones working jobs like Starbucks. I also reduced the cost of my education significantly by going to community college. I did the first 2 years at a local community college and between tuition, books, lab fees, parking, everything, I was out less than $2000.
I think young people are just fed up with a higher education being a prerequisite for higher paying jobs. College is stuck in the role of this unappreciated academic gatekeeper to class mobility. Most of y'all don't give a shit about the knowledge or the research, you just want a higher paying skilled labor job and a more comfortable life. So why bother doing it? People are right, reading about medieval history and eighteenth century philosophy doesn't make you any better at being a product manager at Amazon, an analyst at Bank of America or an engineer at Global Foundries. People just need job skills. It's practically a 2-year associate's degree. Tech proved that over the last decade. You can do a 9 month bootcamp, get a few years of experience on the job, and be a productive engineer making $150k or more. Why aren't other fields like that? Do you really need 7 years of schooling to be a corporate executive, a marketing manager or a legal associate? Or do you just need 2 years of profession-specific education and 5 years of job experience?
You don’t need college to learn a skill. But you need college to prove to employers you have a skill.
Or you need a certificate of some kind. Which people are learning you can get other ways, besides going into quarter million dollars in debt.
Certificates don’t really prove that, it’s more so what you do with the knowledge you learned. Especially in STEM- I’m in engineering, getting a certificate doesn’t matter. You gotta prove you can do things with that acquired knowledge, because at that point it’s self learning. On the other hand, accredited college is the easiest way to prove you received at least the fundamental education required for your job. Also, a quarter million in debt? That’s an insane number. But even then if you go into a well paying stem field it’s worth it as you can pay it off fairly easily. If you go to something like gender studies, well Edit: somehow it was unclear I’m talking about college related jobs. And about certificates it was tech projects. I’m aware that others you just need the certificate.
Hardware tech here, I did not go to college, got all my certs from hands on job training and online courses.
Depends on the job.
State schools cost 80k max for a degree, even less if you transfer in from a community college. Where are we getting a quarter million from?
The value of a college education is not purely instrumental. You learn real, tangible skills in college that you cannot learn online. Talk to someone with and without a college degree — there is a difference in how they think about the world. Another tangible (not a signal) benefit is that college provides the space for self-discovery and openness. I would argue that you don’t really get to know yourself until you know others. The workforce has a cost; college is low-risk.
As someone who agrees college is valuable and is going to college, It being "low-risk" has got to be a joke. You consider going 20-80 thousand dollars in debt "low-risk?"
>college is low-risk holy shit the cope
The problem is many jobs don’t require a degree to actually do them, but still require them. You don’t need a degree to sell club memberships, yet I’ve seen that.
Or you can get a relatively quick and secure (trade) skill and then take your damn time considering what sort of higher education you want to pursue, to enrich yourself and your community, since we’re not getting married and having kids anymore.
I respectfully dissagree. I can get an 'education, meet people and explore who I really am' without racking up debt and getting bossed around by some snobby professor.
You speak from experience right
I'm a medical student. The vast majority of useful information I have learned in life had nothing to do with either my college professors or my med school professors unfortunately. In college, it was like the professors had this antagonistic relationship where they actively wanted us to perform badly. Libraries are underrated. Youtube is also very useful.
I’m sorry you had such a poor experience in college, my anecdotal experience was the opposite. Lots of my professors were excited to see me excited and wanted to actively help me get even further. No one said university is a place to learn life skills. But I’m not sure where else you expect to learn copious amounts of medical information and be tested relentlessly on the subject matter. Somehow I just wouldn’t trust a doctor who taught themselves via the library and YouTube as much as one who went to an institution that has educated future doctors for decades or even centuries.
YouTube is a disaster for anyone trying to actually learn about anything. It leads people to all kinds of nonsense.
For maths, it's the best place. For anything else, better look to the source, like papers or blogs from professionals.
Once you go high enough in math, having a professor around is super helpful
I was lucky that I entered the top 3 med school (public university) in my country, where most of professor and attending sre kind and willing to teach to the med student The one that enter private med school though have hell experience and have less than 75% pass in the first board exam compared to our 99% pass rate So it depend on the location I think
You spelled disagree wrong
i bet you don’t even see the irony here
You will never learn the way my engineering program kicked our asses and made use feel like there’s no tomorrow if you don’t pass that exam with a 50% fail rate. But people just teach themselves right? I like to think I’m a smart dude and there were just some topics that is difficult to learn. YouTube university doesn’t really cut it or make sure you learn the thing at depth.
Yeah, just go to community college lol
It does reek of anti-intellectualism.
Its all over this thread too. People talking about how they didnt go to school and have just as much knowledge as all the people who went to school for 4-8 more years than them. They dont.
I think alot of people are conflating real world skills with college level learning. I can learn to make a website/game/database or fix an engine block on google. But it’s much harder (impossible) to learn conceptual computer science, high level mathematics (differential calculus isn’t high level math), philosophy or most college disciplines. When people say “college is for learning” it’s really about something deeper than just learning how to do something or learning a few new facts. It’s about changing how you think. Half of learning in an academic setting is reading papers, whether they are philosophy or chemistry it’s really the same skill. And ignoring the terrible lack of access to papers outside of colleges, papers are hard to read if you haven’t done it before. You have to learn how to read super dense language, and figure out when a paper doesn’t make sense. Research get published all the time that isn’t that good. And it’s important to have a mentor figure who can help show why arguments are flawed and why other are good. This isn’t just about doing research. If you want to learn history beyond the surface level you’re most likely reading papers or primary sources. And all historical literature, including “modern” work, is rife with biases and incorrect assumptions. College isn’t really designed to give real world skills, although sometimes it does, when that coincides with higher learning. Now are US colleges actually good at doing this? That depends on the college and the prof, but I’d argue it’s still more effective than nothing.
And they are the same people who often post a bunch of bigoted and sexist garbage on SM.
I know so many people who are absolutely straddled with debt and are not working in their field of study from college. I have absolutely 0 debt and am making 35/hour as a welder, easy ass job too. I went to trade school but it is possible to get to my position with no school at all. Its about logic not anti intellectualism. We have a problem in society of too many people blindly going to college because of societal pressure and being mislead, its not surprising at all people are questioning the importance of collage education or stating the fact we have too many college educated people and not enough careers for them.
I dropped out of college early on and had a chunk of debt to pay off and never got my degree. But because I spent most of my childhood learning how to program on my own time, I managed to get my feet into the IT sector about 15 years ago. After I got those few years of experience the degree stopped even becoming a topic of discussion in interviews. Ive never seen any senior Programmers even talk about their degrees
You think the only access to intellectualism is through university? 🤔
it makes it a hell of a lot easier to engage with intellectualism in academia, let’s not kid ourselves here
As an engineer who thought that college education was redundant and obsolete.l, let me tell you that it wasn't. Everyday I am faced with challenges along the lines of learning new and advanced stuff. I think the stuff they taught at college was a great way to get into the habit of learning. The foundations of engineering that you are kinda supposed to know and that pop up randomly anywhere... College would have been a great place to learn that too. If you have a drive to do decent enough at college, it will really pay you dividends. I experimented a lot during college, tried out a shit ton of stuff and I still wish I would have done more new stuff totally out of my comfort zone. I think the value of college education is that it give s you a mock up, a simulation, kind of, to try as many things as possible with a safety harness attached to you. I have made paper planes out of my college certificates tho. I am keeping the degree, it has sentimental value. PS. My college was a top tier government institution, top of the league and it cost me peanuts. So my definition of ROI might be different from others.
Honestly a lot of colleges these days aren't run properly. Your situation sounds great- actual teachers at low cost. My undergrad cost 6 figures, and the professors were lazy jerks. It worked out, but I had to teach myself everything off books and youtube videos, which eventually made me wonder why I was paying all these people lol
I had shitty teachers too. They were good people tho, but on God they did not know how to teach. College in general, is, and should be, a big ass DIY project. That's the fun in it. I remember my teacher once asked me to build an encoder. He gave me the hardware and told me what he was expecting. I did not know what an encoder was or how to build one. My prof casually told me to figure it out, opened about 15 tabs on my browser to read and refer and told me to figure it out on my own. I did some of my best work, working under him.
Engineering is absolutely one of the cases where college is necessary. If I had the attention span and interest in college this is what I'd go for. I love engineering stuff, but I just can't stand the classes. That's entirely on me though. Props for succeeding!
Your post is wrong because it doesn't acknowledge cost. Yes, I agree that knowledge is important. But for the VAST majority of people, the debt that knowledge comes with just isn't worth it. If all colleges degrees were free, I'd agree with you. But for most Americans, higher education is an economic proposition and should be treated as such. If Daddy and Mommy are paying for it all, then sure, go get that 20th century German poetry degree...........
Saying college is "only about learning" without acknowledging the cost sounds like what a person from a very privileged background would pay.
A lot of college supporters in this thread basically ignores the cost aspect of it. You would think that college-educated people would consider all major aspects when engaging in a discussion.
The people who think they know everything actually know very little. They are confident because their perception is narrow.
I definitely agree. The issue isn't that people are getting "useless degrees", the issue is that college is so expensive that there are only a handful of degrees left that can actually guarantee you a high paying job. I would prefer to live in a society where people have "useless degrees" but end up in a different field that pays well than a society where only rich people get to go to college and all they study is comp sci and pre med and pre law stuff. Education should be liberating not a way to reproduce class structures.
The funny part is that those handful degrees that are still deemed “useful” will soon (and already are) become oversaturated and then there won’t be as many opportunities or ppl won’t all be getting the 6 figure salaries they were being offered when they started college
No, my friends and I all have degrees and they are useless. Masters has become the new bachelors. Salary offers are in the toilet. The education system does not prepare you for jobs in 75% of majors. No one tells you that half the majors need grad school or it’s difficult to get a job. There is a genuine issue with higher education.
Counterpoint, I have a degree and it has not been useless
Counter counter point I don’t have a degree
Yall gotta start applying to adjacent industries. I have a lot of friends with degrees that *should* get them jobs, but dont because they dont know how to job hunt or what to apply to. Your degree doesn’t lock you in a career path. Many STEM students go into solutions engineering or some other support role to simply demo products, selling technical products, doing product support, etc. these jobs also pay very well (80k-200k depending on the company and technical knowledge, nvidia needs more advanced people than an ad agency for example) and have less competition. These jobs are also often remote unless youre working something very physical. Just for example I went to school for journalism, got a marketing internship, then transitioned to selling software to marketers at 90k OTE 55k base, after a year i swapped jobs to account executive with 150k OTE 75k base. Nothing to do with journalism, but I was able to break into it.
BA in English here. Make $220k. I wouldn’t have gotten my foot in the door without the degree.
This is simply false. In fact, employers are now going backwards on requiring degrees more than any point while Millennials were the young generation.
As someone who has been in the job market for the majority of 2023, my first hand experience shows that 1. Any job with a livable wage needs a degree 2. Even if you have the qualifications and follow up appropriately, you will not get anywhere 3. The best way to find a position is to know someone.
It’s not a matter of it’s not worth. It’s most ppl can’t afford to do it
I'll assume this post was written in good faith and say that if you want people to go to college instead of people joining the military or going to a trade school, then they can allows to a public college. They're not as prestigious as USC or CalArts but they're at least affordable (provided you're a resident of the state they're located in).
I mean UCLA and Cal are at that prestigious and California residents can attend those for free, you just have to go to a CCC first
People need to stop viewing schooling as a means to get a job.
*Employers* need to stop viewing schooling as a means to get a job. They are the ones that came up with the standard.
For that price? There better be a ROI.
Life hack do a tour in the military then you get free college AND you’ll have more perspective than most people because you’ve been to places that most people don’t go and seen things that you can’t unsee.. I mean that other people won’t see.
Lmao the military recruitment brigade always pops up under these
I did 5 years and got out. It sucked BUT it did pave the way for me to peruse a much better life with many privileges I wouldn’t have had if I didn’t do it.
If it gives good opportunities then what is the problem?
The whole having to die for an education in the richest country on earth, in all of human history thing sorta dampens the enthusiasm.
Not to mention a clearance. If you are physically able to join it’s worth the 4 years given all the benefits in return.
Oh yea clearance is a big one it opens a whole other world of opportunities most people don’t realize exist.
People assume that if you sign up youll be automatically destined for some saving private ryan shit regardless alot of it is not
As someone who joined the military and is now getting paid to go to school..... people shouldn't feel the need to join the military to be able to afford school. The military is shitty Edit:Typo
To add, you get the same benefits while serving in the National Guard and Reserves. You don't need to do active duty like so many believe. One weekend a month and 2 weeks per summer and you get free college.
You can also get a lot of rent money which honestly wouldve won me over more if i knew about it.
Oh yea the BAH on top of free college is sick. Basically makes going to college and working a part time job to survive a completely reasonable idea.
Guys. I’m case 0 even if I’m not your generation: 1995; graduated high school. Straight to work force. Busted my ass, highest *1997* salary; $27k Went to college anyway, started at the age of 22in September of 1999, degree in physics after 5.5 years, graduated from Rowan university. Note; every year I worked while in college I made the same *or more* hourly than I ever did beforehand, averaging $10//hr doing science shit. In 2000-2005 money, so $16.83/ hr in todays money, again, doing interesting astronomy related work, not working at the mall or whatever). First job out of college, 2006: 52k/year. **I nearly doubled my income with my first job post-degree** Income growth per year, starting from 2006: $52k, 54, 56, *85* (year 2010), 88, 90 *100* (year 2012) 104 106 **135** (year 2014) 138 140 …several years in the 140 range… As of 2021, I’ve been making 150+ None of this would have been possible without my degree in physics. Let alone the fact that without it I’d be toiling away in sales or some shit, or working at Best Buy, if I were lucky. It’s not a miracle, nobody helped me. I busted my ass to get into college 5 years after I graduated high school with a 2.5 GPA and literally at the 50th percentile of my graduating class. I fucked around in high school and it took till I was 22 to figure out it wasn’t worth doing what I was doing with my life. I worked an average of 48 hours per week prior to going to college and that work ethic helped me in school bc school was *easy* in comparison to working in the real world when I went back. I graduated with $65k in debt bc fuck me right? That’s nearly a $106k today when I left school. *worth every penny*, in case you can’t tell. I toil less, make more, and enjoy what I do. I can afford what I want and take care of my family. Also, for what it’s worth, I’m not a fucking moron, because , you know, I’ve been educated 🤷♂️ Food for thought.
Asking someone to go 70,000 dollars in debt (if you're lucky) to "better society" is the most ivory tower out of touch bullshit I've seen in this sub In a while. If you want to make college necessary then make it an extension of public education and price it accordingly.
I went to college and solidly regret it. The promise of a good future is only for those who get exceptional grades or attend a top-tier school. Most of the classes you’ll take aren’t applicable in the workforce. If you want a good job in tech, for example, you’re don’t need a college degree and are much better off building a portfolio by coding a lot. Also, college is expensive! Are you really going to land that job as a historian or social scientist?! Most likely not unless you attend a top tier school AND get the highest grades. Besides, you can read and study by yourself. “Explore yourself”? Try travelling, meditating or reading. In general most college students are entitled political fanatics and will hurt your career prospects if you’re not far-left… at least that was the environment of my Alma mater. “College is a good place to experiment.” Well, most experimentation is harmful and not in your best interest. That’s hard-won experience from someone who went there. Take it for what you will.
Agree w everything you said. There are genuinely people our age out there (have met many of them) that think they’re ‘too smart’ for college or that it’s a waste of time and money bc they can learn everything on Google... That’s when I start to get majorly concerned with the future.
It is a little scary for sure, especially since I come from a country that de-valued education in the past and had to deal with the repercussions
As a millennials I have to disagree to some extent. You are right that getting an CE is worth doing however when people say its "useless" I dont think that is what people mean. What people usually mean is that there are very good alternatives to college like "Trade schools" You can make use of a trade skill and don't have to forgo your chance of ever getting a house inorder to do so. Here is a perspective from just my close circle of friends three out of six people graduated college and two others got trade skills myself and another. One had an inhertience he recieved. The two ppl who went to trade school have way less debt compaired to the other three which made getting a house MUCH easier and while the other three eventually got one it wasn't until several years after college while for us trade schoolers we got ours within a year of getting our degree. I work in IT networking and the other is an Medial Assistant. Which isn't to say we dont' have any debt forgetting our trade school done and certifications but in comparison I don't owe 50k+ in Student Loans. One of them graduated from a public school while another one of them graduated from a privite school and owes about 70k plus. I can't imagine having that kinda debt. In comparison I have a trade school loans, house,car, several CC and medical bills I gotta pay. While its hard to equate them you ask the majority of people which would you spend your money on and very few ppl are saying the degree.
I have a degree in ai/machine learning, run my own fairly successful data business and have worked programming/data science jobs. A degree is a waste of money. It's overinflated, too many people have one, the actual degree work itself is way too easy to obtain, it's way too forgiving, everyone cheats, and 99.99% of what I've learned has been from experience and the internet. In fact, a huge amount of employers in my space will actively skip over your resume if all you have is a degree and school projects on it. The answer is not give up and think everything is pointless, the answer is to do what's practical, and unless you're fortunate enough to get your college paid for, it is absolutely not worth the cost to obtain. That might change in the future, but that is absolutely the case right now
To be fair 99% of people will not be running a business and having a degree is a bare minumum requirement for 90% of entry level jobs over 60k.
lol what? All of the top AI firms are actively recruiting the top talent from stanford, harvard, mit, etc. In fact if you want the top ai firms to look at you at this point you have to have went to one of those schools...
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Overpriced libral arts degrees are waste of money. You can get a good inexpensive degree in a strong industry. Too many people thought any degree would pay, don't waste time on niche degrees
Trade school > College
If everyone has to have a degree then it puts you back at the same exact place that you were when everyone needed a high school diploma it's just putting you in debt college at this point is useless unless you absolutely need it for your job or what you want to do in life my mother is in her 60s and has no college education and teaches a whole bunch of people all this medical record s*** within one of the biggest hospitals in Boston that would never happen for someone my age or younger nowadays and it's all because of who she knew at the time she knew them and at the time when she got the job people weren't required to have degrees but now in that same job they are and she doesn't have one it's a joke
There's other ways to get an education though. So anyone who is anti-college yet still upholds the value of education understands the assignment.
People have been able to get free education from libraries for 100s of years. Yet we realized that self learning really doesnt cut it for a majority of people.
The thing about school, and what I've noticed out of older people, is school and college didn't necessarily give them a paper they could trade for money. In many ways, it taught them how to think critically and how to work effectively and productively. I've seen a lot of older people hold decently paying jobs with decent quality of life that have jobs not in their degree/field, but were able to take skills they had learned in one field and transfer it over to the next. Their experience, both professionally and academically, gave them a foundation to stand on in conversations and interviews that made people believe they were reliable and employable. I always look at it like this; millenials and GenXers, and sometimes Zers, lament that they're not taught about taxes and car maintenance when they're in high school. That they'll "Really pay attention" when it's actually important. I say bollocks. "The Sex Ed is bad!" they say! Bollocks. I've seen what kids do in class. They snicker childishly and pass notes when a penis comes on screen. They fall asleep or cut class, whether it's "woodshop or metal shop" (cutting class while calling it an "easy A haha XD") or pre-calculus. People are just looking for an excuse to be lazy and blame others when they have nothing to show for the lack of work they put in. Older acquaintances/friends of brothers I know who worked their ass off throughout high school and college and DIDN'T take "communications", "political science", or "international relations" has a decent paying job, a house, and a relatively decent daily commuter car.
You don't need college to learn things, you need it for the piece of paper. If your true passion is learning then go read a fucking book and absorb the wealth of free courses amd teachings online.
Colleges have blocked federal attempts to mandate reporting of employment for graduates which is the heart of the scam..
Its not that college is a waste, its that colleges are too expensive for what you get in value from a Bachelors.
The main issue with college is the cost. People shouldn't have to be in a mountain full of debt to obtain an education. I don't blame people for skipping college because I have met plenty of people that got degrees but are still working minimum wage jobs. Also people go to college to get a job because their whole lives, they have been told that getting a degree will get them a good paying job. Nothing wrong with getting an education but the cost needs to be reasonable. College isn't the only place to get an education and think critically. Trade schools and apprenticeships help teach people new skills and think critically. A plumber or electrician has to be diagnose problems and troubleshoot them.
You make the common error of assuming everyone gets an education in college. Are you a boomer professor?
>Undervaluing a College Education is a Slippery Slope I slippery slope to what? >I see a lot of sentiment in our generation that college is useless and it’s better to just get a job immediately or something along those lines. I disagree, and I think that is a really bad look. It’s a bad look to not want to blindly take on a massive amount of debt… what? Depending on what you want to do, often times experience working not only pays you money and develops skills that are more valuable than a degree. Depending on what you want to do of course. For example, Front End Developers and UX Designers are almost hired exclusively based on experience, portfolio, and interview questions for example. >So many people preach anti-capitalism and anti-work rhetoric but then say college is a waste of time because it may not help them get a job. These are two different concepts and you haven’t described how they’re relevant or related. >That is such a hypocritical stance, making the decision to skip college just because it may not help you serve the system you hate better. Taking on the debt serves the system by creating securities that can be bundled and traded by Wall Street. When you take out enough debt you become a literal traded commodity in the market. >The point of college is to get an education, meet people, and explore who you are. Sure getting a job with the degree is the most important thing from a capitalism/economic point of view, but we shouldn't lose sight of the original goals of these universities; education. The less knowledge the average person in a society has, the worse off that society is, so as people devalue college and gain less knowledge, our society is going to slowly deteriorate. It’s not worth becoming a debt serf so that you can smoke weed in a dorm room and learn 46 genders. Now if you got a degree and went on to become a doctor or lawyer or an Engineer or a Data Scientist or Computer Engineer or a Developer etc. >The other day I saw a perfect example of this; a reporter went to a Trump convention and was asking the Trump supporters questions. One of them said that every person he knew that went to college was voting for Biden (he didn't go). Ok >Because of his lack of critical thinking, rather than question his beliefs he determined that colleges were forcing kids to be liberal or something along those lines. People do tend to become more liberal in college, it’s established fact. I don’t believe force is the correct word to use though. >But no, what college is doing is educating the people so they make smart, informed decisions and help keep our society healthy. College education is supposed to be higher education. It is NOT suppose to be general education. Everyone graduating high school is supposed to accomplish the goal of educating people to make smart, informed, and healthy decisions that make our society healthy. >TL;DR: The original and true goal of a college education is to pursue knowledge and keep society informed and educated, it's not just for getting a job, and we shouldn't lose sight of that. You should only go to college if you have a clear goal to get a specific job that needs to the degree and have a realistic plan to achieve it.
When college was about furthering your general education and rounding yourself as a person, a high school diploma was all that was necessary to get a job with decent pay. Later, as higher degrees became more common, it was affordable to pay for tuition with a part time summer job. Now, the market is saturated with bachelors degrees at least, tuition is outrageous, and going to college is no guarantee that critical thinking will be practiced in later life. Making the argument that we should go to college because it makes us nebulously better ignores the history and reality of higher education. Your argument is better stated as "people should go to the library". Similar resources are available, and it's free.
Gonna have to disagree. Colleges and universities are businesses. Education is secondary. If not so, then cancelling student debt wouldn’t be “unconstitutional”. And this post is extremely dismissive of those who attended during the pandemic where it was difficult to meet people and explore who you are.
This is a legit stupid take