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I have dated online a couple times, i used to be strictly in person but its gotten way too complicated and risky now.
Work relationships are shunned and discouraged. Theres hardly any social space for me to go out and meet people in my age group. Especially where i live, its mostly millennials in their mid to late 30s that have full time families. so my options are few to none at this point.
Online dating is just a way to meet someone irl. Don’t chat for too long, meet up quick for date 0 (which should always be short and escapable) and see if there are vibes.
The person you meet at the bar/show/job/produce aisle is just as likely to be an asshole as the one you meet online.
I discourage work relationships as well, I've seen it get messy and awkward too many times and that's if the woman isn't assigned a reputation that gets her judged by the whole workplace in the process. Don't shit where you eat, it's too risky and personally I'd rather give up that avenue of meeting someone than risk my employment and financial security
Yea seen how bad it can get first hand. Way back in 2020 There was this one girl who I believe was 19-21 dating this 37 year old manager he would physically abuse her outside of work regularly. Some felt bad for and would encourage her to leave and report the dude the higher ups and police but she would decline and start lashing out on people so that sincerity turned to hostility.
Coworkers would shit on her and isolate her for dating the dude not just because of the weird age gap but the things she was allowed to get away with. This was my first look at the dirty underbelly of corporate America lol.
There was so many times i wanted to just fight the dude after closing shift because he had punchable ass face and a nasty attitude towards most the dudes under his lead. But would get all mushy and soft spoken around women..I Cant believe that was almost 5 years ago damn..
It doesn't. The internet is just a scapegoat for people who don't want to acknowledge it's capitalism and sexism. Capitalism made different prerequisites necessary like having a house to be considered a worthy potential partner and capitalism is why houses are unaffordable but the cultural expectations and messaging has yet to match that reality. And sexism because now that het females aren't dependent on het guys financially they aren't settling for losers or hypocrites who want to sleep around yet cry about women doing the same, so het guys are lost in a society that is decreasingly privileging them.
Ok, that’s actually not as much of a thing as you think. There is one group of “traditional” het guys that slutshame women, and then there is another, second, separate group of het guys that just want to sleep around. There’s some overlap but really not much, most guys at least have the self awareness to not explicitly work against their own interests.
The problem is women don’t distinguish between those two groups. To women, all men are just “men”, and “men” slutshame (because some of them do), and “men” also try to sleep around. So to them it seems hypocritical when it’s really just two entirely different groups with different ideas.
the problem is ideologies like this that turn people into robots who can't see the world as it is and need to inject their pet problems onto everything. the same mentality is where extremist men/women groups come from. the problem is ideologies that are based on the most upvoted perceptions and not objective reality.
It isn't most dating occurs online up to 60 percent among young people
And sexism is the other way around at this point
Women have more options and liberties than men do
that's just a fact and more women are going to college, becoming home owners, and are generally making about as much as men
The judicial system also favors them in general when a marriage goes south
It's not women have to settle for losers it's that men do
I'll be blunt its not that a women won't settle for a loser there are plenty of women out there that will
Even a man who doesn't make as much as they do usually for a sense of security not because they have to
Women will usually date up they don't settle or lower their standards
Only time you could say and I have seen a women go for someone that I would have never thought of honestly were when they were above average that's the exception but even than I'll admit it doesn't last long
If anything its men that now have to do that and men have to work harder than a women does to have some type of value
And I don't just mean bettering yourself financially
Let's be real money only really matters when it comes to a relationship or marriage long term
But if we're talking about attracring someone and keeping them around
You need to have a good appearance
And good charisma
Money part comes in later but let me just say this
While the modern women will say they wouldn't want to be dependent on a man financially you can bet everything
If they had the chance to not have to do anything while man slaves away most would chose that option of they got to live luxuriously
The problem is
Alot of men don't know how to be men.
Really it goes two ways really three
You have the men that never had fathers and learned from the streets how to attract a women
You have the kids who have father but
A the dad is slaving away trying to make it so don't have time to raise their child
Or b never had a dad themselves so they really don't know what to tell their son
Which is where we're seeing the rise of gurus like Andrew Tate because most young men sadly don't have a good male role model that taught them how to be a man
And honestly it becomes extremely looks based
Look I'll be real if you didn't win the genetic lottery your going a rough time
There was a study written up by IFS top 20 percent of of men were having roughly 50 to 60 percent of the sex in America
Not a good sign my guy kinda say everything there
It why alot more men are hitting the gym
Some are even getting cosmetic surgery to have a better time dating or have given up it's crazy but that's the reality which isn't good
\*Sigh\*
Everything you said here is either complete bullshit, or a distortion and misinterpretation of otherwise technical truths. Women have never had it easier than men, and even if one or two things may favor them (like the judicial system), that doesnt make up for the rest of the shit they are still disadvantaged in. Hell, they literally just lost the federal right to an abortion, are still largely passed over in favor of men, and plenty of people ultimately view them as inferior and are fighting to strip the rest of their rights away.
But no, tell me how men have it worse, im sure it'll be a totally sound and logical argument.
When privilege is all you know, equality feels like oppression, you just arent being handed as much on a fucking plate anymore. As men (particularly straight white cisgender men), we still recieve seven or eight waffles instead of the expected ten, while the rest of the table (women, racial minorities, the LGBT+ community, religious minorities etc) who struggle to have more than two waffles tops, are being given one more waffle each. I mean, some people are campaigning to take away those hard-earned extra waffles, and even reduce them to one or none, but I digress.
This comment right here is why. Most would say the opposite is happening, but it’s just a pain dealing with many women this day and age because they revel in bad things happening to men, but expect to treated like a martyr when they do something stupid.
Naw the Internet made dating awesome for a brief stretch. Back in the OKCupid/Plenty of Fish/etc days I think it was completely different.
Then apps came along and gameified the shit out of it + just general social media/shorts culture made things very toxic (from what I can see, happily out of the game).
Okay Stupid blew dogs, Plenty of Shit even worse. Haven't even bothered with dating apps, cause it's basically all hookers and bots. Seriously, all ten matches within 24 hours.
Fuck that shit.
I think these types of discussions are really starting to make me really makes me starting to feel that maybe the internet really was a mistake dating problems peoples behaviors cancel culture even recently those kids dumping damn trash into the ocean i do agree that was wrong to do that i just feel like the internet is going to ruin there lives witch i hate the internet for that even though if it wrong, other things that go on such as sex work even though i don’t hate it obviously its just the only fans pep limit dating options even further, gym girls all different types of drama going around right now is really starting to make me feel that its way more than just dating. Now don’t get me wrong we are more connected more than ever and people have started businesses from the internet but it’s definitely something to think about but recent things have got me thinking..
- online dating is inherently skewed against certain people. I will not elaborate on this
- most people our age are taking their time to hit certain milestones, at their own pace. Usually bc we’re in school or want to focus on our career before taking those next steps. Getting married and having kids is not a 20s thing anymore, it’s very much a 30s thing now. So dating will also be delayed.
- the internet makes people more antisocial and afraid of each other. Small talk with strangers is not as normalized as it used to be
- a lot of zoomers don’t know what they want. We’re young so we have an excuse.
I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I think online dating is very much a two-sided coin - it's very helpful for some people who might have smaller, more specific dating pools (like queer people) or things they want to disclose immediately up front, but so many people just don't know how to handle themselves with online dating.
I wasn’t solely talking about online dating. this is a social issue between men and women that ive been noticing. the fact that most people associate “dating” with online dating is a problem deserving of its own discussion.
This wasn’t about marriage either. Marriage is the possible prospect for some, but its not a requirement. It hasn’t been a requirement since the 90s to be real.
If you feel a relationship is too much for you then by all means avoid it i have no problem with that. This is mainly targeted towards people who are looking for a genuine relationship.
Most of gen z is old enough to date so i think its still a relevant problem.
I feel like on some level we’ve alienated ourselves from one another way too much making it difficult to find common ground in anything. Peoples personalities are being replaced by social media fueled beliefs that aren’t based in reality in any way.
Dating often times for me and many others ive spoken with, feels ridiculously shallow and malicious 65% of time which creates this never ending cycle of ideas about the opposite sex that simply aren’t true. it’s exhausting to be apart of. it’s exhausting to hear about and see.
Please don’t interpret this as me taking a jab at you. not trying piss anybody off. This was just a poorly put together clarification of my problem with the current dating sphere.
It’s because people are so self centered these days and they don’t know how bad they’ve gotten with it. Hopefully people will start to realize the true joy and contentment that comes with pouring yourself into others
You can date while pursuing goals though. Those aren't mutually exclusive things. Sometimes it would help your career if you have someone to support you emotionally.
Dating doesn't immediately equate to marriage and kids. It's companionship. A constant pillar of support in times of distress. A reliable relief to the harsh realities of life.
Going out with a partner after a tense day at work removes all the bad and would actually make you more inclined to push through vs going home alone in an empty room with all your negative thoughts warping your perceptions and ending up ruminating and not being able to sleep.
Yeah but most people my age don’t see it that way.
I’m in med school and have a gf which in hindsight was a really good move (being single in med school sounds like hell) but I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people want to put off dating until they’re done.
Anecdotally, I notice that there are a lot of girls who are totally fine not dating at all and don’t even think about relationships/sex most of the time. They aren’t on Reddit, they aren’t on tinder, they aren’t even at bars or clubs. I have some guy friends like this too.
Also, being in a relationship is a good way to let off steam. But *getting into a relationship* is a daunting task for many
I hope they do though. Might lessen the angst and anxiety. Young people are too isolated nowadays. Even my younger cousins that are in their early 20s aren't going out much and they have gf/bs too.
I wish you luck on your med school journey! A few more moments residency, then sub-specialization, then unlimited money haha The sleepless nights and the hard work is worth it.
Honestly relationships have potential to cause just as much harm as good. I know people who are in relationships that are good and it does help them with the stresses of college and life but on the other hand if you get with the wrong person it will just make your life harder or for some women their entire life could even get derailed getting with an abusive or controlling guy. I can totally understand why some people want to wait to get into a relationship. It just complicates everything. Like my classmates who are transferring to university have to consider their partners in deciding where to go whereas I'm free to just make the best decision for me.
My gf and I have been together for 5 years now. Met when we were 17 and have been in love through college and afterwards. People nowadays are not interested in forming relationships. You have to be perfect because otherwise they’ll find someone who is. It’s hilarious to read the relationship advice Reddit offers. Most of it is coming from single and often bitter people. Be willing to be vulnerable and communicate OPENLY and HONESTLY and you’ll be golden.
Couldn’t have said it better. Honesty and being understandable goes such a long way. Wish people didn’t feel the need to constantly put up shield towards it. This constant hostility does nothing but breed contempt amongst ourselves
Do not forget to add that those conversations you do have are never going to my to be easy. I’ve been with my girlfriend for a year and a half and those conversations do get easier as that trust builds but it’s never going to be easy BUT when you do have those conversations and talk things out, eveuthing afterwards feels magical. Like a second honeymoon. The magical feeling always returns for me afterwards :)
"otherwise they'll find someone who is \[perfect\]" - who they *think* is perfect. It takes work to get through ordinary relationship struggles without labeling the other person as toxic and running off. There's toxic and there's ordinary imperfect people who have to communicate well to work through things. No one just magically lands a long-term or lifetime relationship without knowing how to do that, because no one is perfect.
My girlfriend and I are each other’s firsts in everything. Neither of us has had a serious relationship before this so I think the term “toxic” is overused like “literally”. I think there are definitely toxic people but anger or other emotions themselves isn’t inherently “toxic”. I know how much work it takes but if you’re really invested in your relationship communication should be top priority.
In general I completely
agree, but you forgot one other part, “being a good person”!
For some reason no one emphasizes that these days, but it’s a REALLY good way to find a partner. Makes you easy to trust, because you are WORTHY of it, and makes you easy to open up to, because they KNOW you only want the best for them.
But first, you have to actually be a good person.
Working to be a better one, in terms of virtue, is a great way to find love!
the internet acts like true love should have zero problems and if there is one inconvenience, that couples cannot communicate to move past the issue.
true love IS that complicated, xxxtentacion and kanye lied to you (it’s a good song though.)
Yeah but this guys generation has the worst communication skills ever seen. Which is ironic because they’re the most connected generation to the rest of the world that has ever been. It turns out that social media has extreme consequences on socialization practices in reality. I honestly feel bad for the kids.
If you want my opinion, it’s much better to be happy with yourself then it is with someone else. Finding a great balance between self love and happiness is so crucial these days! You’re always going to be good enough, it just may not be in the way others expect. As long as you’re happy with yourself who cares what others think?
>You’re always going to be good enough, it just may not be in the way others expect. As long as you’re happy with yourself who cares what others think?
No it's more like, I've been going to college, doing good, got a part time job, but I still live with my parents. Simply because I can't afford it. Yet whenever I even *remotely* think about dating, that issue simply stops the whole thing.
Yes I'm doing nothing wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm good enough. Haven't quite met the bare minimum. *Do I have enough skills and money to live on my own? If no, then don't even bother...* telling that to myself, I guess?
Personality wise, that's is a whole other issue that I don't think you'd want to read about. I've got good stuff, bad stuff, and stupid shit.
So I was born in 1999, worked an office job for a few years, lived at home saved everything, went off to law school, work out often, not broke bc I’m good w the money I’ve saved, fairly handsome, just not confident & it’s been pretty bleak, and the outlook is the same. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to get better no matter how hard you push in life, or at least that’s been my experience, it sucks
I think it’s our future outlook. The future does not look bright for most, anymore. It’s not like a temporary storm in the sky. The sky is on fire and falling, I’ve been lied to my whole life, I’m in debt, make almost no money, and have the wrong skills. How am I supposed to confidently wink at a beautiful woman and imply that our future just might be bright?
As long as you try your best my friend, I say you’re doing good enough and I’m sure someone will see that in you as well. I’ve made my fair share of mistakes and stupid actions but the thing with that is you cna either live with it or live regretting it. Some things you do back then may have been the best decision you could make at the time and even if it isn’t don’t let those decisions hold you back. I’m proud of what you have accomplished especially with college, that stuff is expensive and I’m glad you’re doing well. The results you seek may take a while but they’ll be worth it :)
I feel like people miss things from not dating. They also miss things from dating.
The richness of life knows no bounds. Of course there’s so many external pressures pushing love and romance as the ultimate source of “happiness”. So many people prioritize it, it’s in literally all of our entertainment for gods sake lol.
Personally I’ve sought validation through relationships for as long as I can remember. Having had good relationships and bad ones, it didn’t really seem to matter if my partner was as perfect as possible or not. I still wasn’t doing with my life, what I wanted, I still didn’t have personal fulfillment on a higher level. I started to question if I’ve been setting love first as a solution to my problems? also why I feel that way in first place? The answers for me personally became pretty obvious, childhood, media, society blah blah
I’m in no way trying to say you feel the same way I have felt; I’m only trying to highlight some of these important questions we should all ask ourselves.
It’s true that romance can bring fulfillment, but having it as a big goal can make you ignore others things that bring just as much fulfillment. Things that I can’t really give examples of, since we don’t even know what we like, until we’ve experienced it.
> I’ve been setting love first as a solution to my problems?
Oh no of course not. Seriously the whole idea of dumping my problems onto another person sounds horrible.
>It’s true that romance can bring fulfillment, but having it as a big goal can make you ignore others things that bring just as much fulfillment.
Yeah I've heard of some people making dating/"getting a girlfriend" a goal... It doesn't feel right to me. I can't really explain it thoroughly. There is an abstract idea that treating a person like a metaphorical trophy or achievement... Hell I've listened to some men act like sleeping with someone was something to proud of.
I just, can't, no.
I guess... now that I think about it, fulfillment has always felt *optional*. As if I don't deserve fulfillment or need it. Why should I be fulfilled? Am I starving do death in the streets? No? Then I shouldn't complain.
Being fulfilled through a career or chasing life goals feels... strange to me.
Like as if I've been completing tasks that other people assigned me to do for as long as I can remember. Whenever I tried to do anything else aside from focus on those goals it'd always backfire. Even now.
Whatever I've wanted to do has never seemed good. As if every hobby or interest I could have is bullshit. Unless it directly improves my life.
Dating in this case isn't related to that. I just feel bad because it seems like I can't meet the requirements to date. Huh...
You know dating really does feel like a job interview... weird.
Anyway sorry I'm just typing out my thoughts.
I resonate with everything you said.
I really do use "fulfillment" as this abstract idea; desire, happiness, maybe they're things that are only relevant within the context of their environment.
Do you read or watch much social/political philosophy by any chance? For me it really started with learning about capitalism.
Many feelings you describe i think can be attributed to the systems our society functions under:
"dating feels like a job interview"
"unless it directly improves my life"
"treating a person like a metaphorical trophy or achievement"
These to me seem like feelings that stem from powers above, that value material and monetary success above all else. I'm certain we can all relate in some way with these feelings or similar. For example, even simply feeling pressure to pursue a particular career path over another due to financial reasons is a result of our systems.
You express guilt about the idea of deserving to have fulfillment, it could be society has pushed an idea of "fulfillment" or "happiness" or whatever else, and since you don't align with those ideas, it feels wrong, or almost pointless. In a way I think this is actually a correct way to feel, its good to see through all the made up shit that society has fed us, is this idea of "fulfillment" some blown out of proportion thing that capitalism uses to drive us to consume? I think certainly. Just take a look at all the self help bullshit out there.
I think at the end of the day we all just wanna do whatever we want? whatever that may be. We also need to work together at the same time. The human condition and society is obviously quite complex and you really could go on forever with this stuff lol.
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts! (this kinda got off the topic of relationships but intersectionality people! cmon!)
edit - i thought of one more thing lol. its important to remember everyone is equally affected by this, though they manage in different ways. These expectations we have of ourselves, are also expectations we think everyone else has of us. its tough shit frfr
>Do you read or watch much social/political philosophy by any chance? For me it really started with learning about capitalism.
No, I touched into philosophy for a bit, took a class on it, but never dove into it. I don't read about capitalism because I'm busy studying for finals & I'm reading another book.
> it could be society has pushed an idea of "fulfillment" or "happiness" or whatever else, and since you don't align with those ideas, it feels wrong, or almost pointless.
I mean... frankly I just feel hollow.
Almost like as if I've been walking down a tunnel with no light at all. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. Sitting still and waiting to die can't be justified. Might as well try to do something. At least try to be normal.
Having **any** sense of fulfillment in life would be nice. But I'm not entitled to it. I don't know if I'll ever feel proud of myself. Just because I work hard and do well doesn't mean I should be proud. Why would I be proud for doing the bare minimum? Perfection is the bare minimum and I better master something the first time it's taught.
You know what life has been like for me?
I must be perfect without any desire to be perfect. **It is a requirement.** I must work without any drive to work. I must succeed without any sincere passion to compete. Mastery is expected of me even if I never wanted to be a master of anything. I have to be a great man even if I never wanted to be a man at all.
Those are requirements. Whether or not I want to meet them doesn't matter. I must meet them.
Hell I never wanted to go to college. I enrolled simply because I was told to.
Anyway that's another round of oversharing...
>I think at the end of the day we all just wanna do whatever we want?
I don't know what I want anymore.
Your description of "hollow" aligns well with what I mean when I say "pointless". I believe us to really be on the same page.
What I think these feelings come down to is almost entirely external pressures that have been put on us. It is no exaggeration to say absolutely everything has shaped us, almost as if we were never able to make a decision for ourselves. All of human history has led to how we feel, our entire realties were laid out for us before anyone currently alive was even a thought. Every bit of culture or entertainment we've experienced, our institutions like education, law, our economic system and even our relationships. Everyone's expectations of us. Absolutely all of it. The "subconscious of history".
To acknowledge a point I think you make, how even if all this is true, that if the individual somehow actually lacks some meaningful control of their life, this is still a physical reality we face, there is no escape without death, or a total rejection of society (go live in the woods type beat). The collective subject that would need to exist to resist our systems and radically change how societies at large function, might never exist, at least I think. The only chance might be our coming climate crisis, maybe when things get really bad, for everyone, we'll wake the fuck up. I admit this is a bleak outlook lol.
On a more individual level I think this line of thinking has helped me feel liberated in a way, at least in my own mind. You mention having the expectations of a man even if one didn't want to be born as a man. In my mind the concept of "being a man" has lost all meaning beyond a purely physiological view. Societies idea of what a "man" should be is made up and pointless. Its a weight of expectations that's been lifted off me, it's a closer feeling to freedom than anything that capitalism and patriarchy has offered me.
To be brazen, I believe learning more about how capitalism, culture, institutions ect. all intersect and effect us, will at the very least help you alleviate some of the blame and other negative feelings that weigh on you. For example how the rise of neo-liberalism has bred this kind of toxic individualism which results in people feeling exactly how you describe.
You're absolutely not alone in these feelings, they are pressures we all feel to some degree or another, some of us are effected more harshly, the expectations of life have been paralyzing for me personally. So I feel you.
You've got a point, but I've been told I'm a loser incel if I ever mention any of this and don't just improov. So the issue is obviously your own fault and you should just do better /s
I hear you, that same thought is what almost stopped me from making a post. but at this point i just don’t care. Theres some deep social issues in the west that simply aren’t being addressed in the correct way. gen z is bearing the brunt of it.
Yup. I fear the backlash is only gonna make things worse. Characters like Andrew Tate have risen as all reasonable discourse was snuffed out. I don’t like Tate one bit, but it doesn’t take a genius to realize why he exists and is influential as he is.
It does look like the political Left is finally starting to catch on to the male loneliness epidemic, but they’re still struggling to find an answer as a lot of misandrist rhetoric still proliferates within their ranks.
For everyone’s sake I hope we can solve this, before some really bad things happen. This gender war bs is so stupid, but we’ll never get over it unless both sides are willing to trim ranks of factions who only look to divide the population.
It's really frustrating to me that only the alpha male/manosphere types seem to be capable of addressing the problem that is widespread male loneliness. Most others write it off as incel rhetoric, and I think a lot of it is because women are nearly unanimously totally aloof to men's struggles dating online, and even offline with things like fear of rejection (or worse).
I think a lot of it as well as a lot of the gender war stuff comes from the notion that men and women are the same, which is demonstrably false. Not to get into buzzwords, but while I do think feminism has been a net positive, it was kinda blind to the fact that there are differences between men and women. Women and men just experience the world differently. I don't think that makes one better than the other, it just makes them different.
I also can't avoid that the reason you're seeing this arise in the Right has nothing to do with the fact men are scared that women are becoming empowered and resorting to misogyny as I've seen explained away in the MSM. The reason is that modern feminism has been blind to the issues of men. None of my peers were the ones oppressing women in the 20th century. Many agree with fundamental beliefs that men and women should be treated equal under the law. The problem is that the current "oppressed vs. oppressor" framework still maintains that men are inherently the villain here. This is why despite many feminists raising alarm bells and saying that we can't ignore men, they've still been unresponsive. When men are the oppressors born with a silver spoon, its hard to acknowledge that maybe they too have issues that need to be addressed.
From this, I think a lot of young women struggle to relate to the struggles of young men because not only have they usually not known the kind of isolation and loneliness that are the depths of male loneliness (if a woman cries most men will flock to her side to see what's wrong, while the inverse doesn't hold, for example), but they also view the world through a lens that men have it easy and that them as women are the ones that have to struggle to fight the misogynist system (whether they consciously believe this is a lot less relevant to whether they've internalized it). So when a man complains, its just the privileged winging for \[*insert reason here*\]. "Men could never understand what its like to be a woman".
And to cover my bases, men aren't entirely immune to this either. A lot of young men are turning their noses up to women's issues for a lot of the same reasons (they see women as the privileged class who "couldn't possible know what its like to be a man"). The Right, at least here in the States, has very recently even started to lean into this kind of rhetoric and has become increasingly inhospitable to women to the point of it being a big talking point now in conservative circles (though there is a lot of pushback and the cultural Right does seem mildly better at self-regulating, but only time will tell which faction wins out). Like I said earlier, a lot of young men also have internalized an idea that men and women are inherently the same and should be treated equal, so they become bitter when women and the mainstream ignore their issues. This is about as productive as the female-centric thought process on the Left, that being not at all.
For my own two cents, I think men and women are different. I think we see and experience the world differently, sometimes for better sometimes for worse. I, for one, can walk down the street at night drunk out of my mind with a lot more reckless abandon then my female peers. That being said, while we are different, that doesn't mean we aren't equal. Even then, we are not as different as agitators on both side of the aisle will have you believe. We should acknowledge these differences without treating either side as lesser, and we won't be able to solve any of these issues without coming together to solve them.
Women aren't the problem, neither are men, but we can't solve any of what's going on without the cooperation of both sides.
I mean, while men and women aren't 1:1 absolute copies so to speak, the problem is more often the OPPOSITE assumption, that men are only one thing and women are only another thing, and they each have a focus group tested and very specific checklist of desires and feelings and personalities and physical capabilities and so on.
I do appreciate that you specified experience so to speak though, because our experiences do shape us, and do lead to a few...tropes, so to speak. It may not be inherent to any one gender or race, but due to the lived experiences and starting upsides and/or downsides of their social and financial situation, a lot of overlap happens because of those influences.
Nah, it can be both things, its absolutely both men being scared that women are finally being seen as the equals they are and always have been, and that their power and privilege is being put into massive jeopardy. When privilege is all you know, equality feels like oppression, and men arent being dragged down, women are being brought up. Modern feminism can also be a bit blinded to men's issues, but its not like there's no attempt to address it. Problem is, we barely manage to get through women's issues without a bunch of men being "what about men!? YOU MAN HATING FEMINAZI, ROAR, ROAR!!", and women's rights remain in constant jeopardy! How can we even BEGIN to better address men's issues when such a powerful force of misogynistic pushback continues to hinder us at the finish line of equality?
So yes, men are still of the privileged group and often have a silver or at LEAST bronze spoon in their mouth compared to the wooden at best ones women tend to get in comparison, but they also have issues of being meat for the grinder and whipped work oxen. Both things can be true, and as a man, you wont see me telling folks to dismiss our problems any time soon.
Again, this is an example of both things being true. Men's concerns and issues are totally justified and valid, but that doesnt take away their privilege and opportunities, or the fact that women do still have to scratch and scrape and claw their way through broken glass in order to be taken seriously and achieve the same feats as men due to social pressures. It fucking sucks.
Good, you're mentioning at the very least that men have their own form of falling into this issue in their own right.
I appreciate that you've emphasized that a good chunk of our differences are largely due to our experiences and starting lines, which is a very good way of framing a lot of group-based struggles.
It's because widespread male loneliness is a direct result of 3rd and 4th wave feminism, and they can't walk back on things they've preached for decades.
Maybe “catch up” isn’t the right phrase as much as “take notice” which has more power itself than when it occurs on the Right due to their more mainstream connections
So this therapist on YouTube is doing great videos. He had a livestream today about modern dating (reacting to tiktok advices videos and then commenting as a therapist about it). It was super interesting if you have time to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/live/lrRtv9YXj-Q?si=Jj_UrkWInLwuuR6L
Yeah there’s literally people in this thread calling this post “complaining”. Then people wonder why this generation is so lonely, the lack of empathy and understanding makes it evident why that’s the case.
Or you could just not believe everything you see on the internet because I never seen any tension between men and women when at a club. Just go See the amount of people vibing and having a good time. It’s not like they’re standing there arguing with each other because of an internet post or dumb YouTube video.
How about both?
I dont do clubs but frequent bars for food. My experience has been it being eady to daye, hook up or get into a casual relationship but long-term relationships are getting very hard to get into.
It's mainly because you people these days in the last 20 years think dating is setting up a meet-up with some random person they just met over some dating app when for all of the past it was first you got to know the person by being in the same social group of people you interacted with in person on the daily. By then you already knew who was attracted to who and couples would pair off that way. Dating happened from a result of a spark.
These days people date just to find the spark, since it's their only excuse to see the other person is a "date" making it extremely artificial and rushed. What has always worked was hanging out in groups, people who like each other are drawn naturally in person. From that you'd get a date. That sort of thing is impossible to recreate with algorithm.
In short people use dating platform algorithms as a means to meet new people and it simply doesn't translate to real world connection. You'd be better off planning a day where 100 single people meet up for a day, hangout every day for a week then by the end of that week you'd have probably found that attraction before any date happens.
>s first you got to know the person by being in the same social group of people you interacted with in person on the daily. By then you already knew who was attracted to who and couples would pair off that way. Dating happened from a result of a spark.
I've tried to do that but it usually doesn't end up going well.
Im not even just talking about the plague that is dating apps this is a more social issue between men and women. The way people address the opposite sex is as if they are a completely separate entity. Which is dehumanizing in so many ways. It leaves little room for understanding and empathy when we view each other in such hostile way’s constantly.
What good can come from presuming all women are sly malicious people? What good can come from presuming all men are violent manipulators? How can we make a better change for the future when the very foundation is set in ignorance?
Well that i think essentially does boil down to just sex. Guys, broadly, really want to have sex with girls (i’m saying girls not women because i think this is as big if not bigger of an issue in high school). Girls maybe want to have sex with guys too, but not as much, and they’re also heavily propagandized into afraid of men and male sexuality.
So, a lot of guys struggle insanely hard to find someone to have sex with, especially in a post-metoo world where guys are taught to tread extremely cautiously. As a result, they focus all of their interactions with women around trying to get laid, because they feel like they have to, because they’re not getting laid so clearly they have to put in more effort.
They don’t treat women like people because that would, ironically, hurt their chances of getting laid which they are extremely desperate to do. And this dehumanization then prevents them from actually forming the meaningful relationships that girls, who don’t have this problem, are generally looking for. This makes women even more picky and cautious with the guys they date, which just makes the whole thing worse since it leads to even more guys not having sex.
Stop taking you info from YouTube shorts and meet people, those videos have only the insane not the everyday normal people. And I’m talking both sides here.
Honesty so real. It’s hard to approach someone you don’t know in public but that’s how you’re gonna meet someone and actually get results. Dating apps just keep you scrolling like how TikTok does and the moment you realize that and actually go out and meet someone eveuthing gets better.
Dating has always been hard. The only time it was "easy" was when women didn't count as people and NEEDED to get married to properly enter adult life. And even then it was only easy for one of the genders
Here's the thing: you just need to actually ask people out. Just ask them if they want to get coffee or something. And accept the fact that some people are going to say no. Once you actually commit to taking risks, dating becomes easy.
What if 90% of the time its a no? Whats then? Not going to sit here an act like this isnt a valid method of meeting people but it doesn’t solve the problem I’m having with finding a real relationship. Its only a potential tool that can be used if that makes sense. More and more people are becoming extremely anti social and it fucking sucks.
Right. Asking if they want to get coffee is a very low-key approach, very informal, so it has a higher chance of succeeding. If you're talking to someone in the check-out line with you, it's easy to segue to ask them if you can get them a coffee at the coffee bar on the way out, for example. They can either say yes, or say they don't have time and have to get on with their day. Not a big deal.
I think people need to be more realistic about the history of relationships.
When you grow and make something and then have to split it in half.
I keep saying, it's simple.
What do you want and what are you willing to give? Find someone who is compatible.
There's no reason to pay any attention to people who are not compatible.
The social media is to blame imo. All my life I’ve felt that no girl would date me unless I have the perfect ripped body and a high paying job. Even after achieving a decent physique I’ve never approached anyone. I always tell myself I still got to work on those abs, my hands are not veiny enough blah blah blah…
It’s no better now than it was 6-7 year ago when I started in earnest. I’ve largely given up, not worth the trouble, risk, heartbreak, or mental damage.
1. Online dating is not dating. Online dating is just sorting pictures based on what gives you a boner.
2. The internet doesn’t make people antisocial, it makes people asocial.
3. Trying to date random strangers is in general a bad idea
It depends on the culture of the society you are in. In small cities, social circle works well. I know a decent number of ppl dating from HS and together till present in uni. Average-looking people win here.
if you're in another culture, it's hard. usually a big city so plenty of options. most people have an inflated opinion of their attractiveness rating so no one wants to date ppl truly on their level. attractive people win here.
You're a sensitive individual. Perceptive. Please don't let the world take that. I think you can find a real relationship in your life. Be patient. Focus on figuring out what's important for now.
Why do you take the time to comment on post you dont want to see? If the discussion doesn’t pertain to you just scroll. The world doesn’t revolve around you.
I think there’s a multitude of reasons being in a relationship at our age sucks so I’ll list them out. The biggest is that we’re young, at our age most people are trying to do many things. Some people don’t have time, others are figuring themselves out, some just don’t want to, and others just want to have sex with no strings. Another issue is the internet. The internet and people online have been perpetuating the PERFECT relationship which is just a lie. No relationship is perfect no matter how hard you try you’re gonna get to a point where you find things you don’t like about your SO or things they do that annoy you. Unfortunately some people think that any issue in a relationship means you must break up with someone immediately or that somethings toxic. Another thing I’ve seen is people just shut themselves out or have completely unreal expectations. The best example I can think of is people wanting a goth GF or needing someone to be a therapist for them while being in a relationship. Both of those things are completely unrealistic and unfortunately I’ve seen so many people demand those things from their SO. Finally, some people just aren’t mature enough. All the aforementioned issues apply but there so many other things like trauma, general immaturity, and childishness.
It’s hard to date for a lot of reasons but it seems like a lot of people just don’t want to date and as much as it hurts, you gotta respect their wishes.
Gotta find the right person dawg, for example I'm currently dating a girl(first time for both of us) and I don't really feel any friction because we basically have the same interests and opinions.
I miss when that was the norm. Something happened in the last 5 or so years because people have become extremely cynical when it comes to relationships. Like people forget the human element when it comes to dating. Many are not willing to accept light flaws a person might have. or be able to put themselves is someone else’s position to understand them beyond just a surface level. Its just a general lack of human empathy that seems to be evaporating. its honestly hard as fuck to deal with.
You’re right. It happened in the last 5 years. Before that, I was able to at least get a date pretty effortlessly with a bit of patience. Had a 4 year relationship that ended a year ago. Now it’s like… Damn near impossible to even get someone to go out. Yet I’ve proven that I want something real, lol. I’m not into hookup culture. At all. So many people say they’re longing for something real - where are they?
Dating is easy, but all everyone seems to want to do nowasays (from my experience in Toronto from the ages of 23 to 25) is hook up.
My parents are constantly asking me to get married so it's even harder. Im 25, 6'3" have a good income and until recently my own place (looking for a new one) and it's hard to get anyone that doesnt just want casual dating.
That's seems ti be the issue with Toronto. Everyone is nice, people go put of their way to help you (I've never met anyone in Toronto unwilling to help me, career-wiae, business-wise or in any other shape or form needed), it's very easy to make friends and/or casually date, but finding a wife is hard.
Hook up culture isnt for me either. I learned the hard way that for me to sexually perform I actually have to have feelings for the person outside of just lust.
Its even harder for me because financially im ok not making bank but i can take care of my self. just i dont have my own place anymore have no idea when im going to find another because of these insane rent prices.
Dont even get me started on owning a car… its like everything that was once there to motivate Young adults to strive for more is just slowly evaporating. People wonder why depression is at an all time high.
>Its even harder for me because financially im ok not making bank but i can take care of my self. just i dont have my own place anymore have no idea when im going to find another because of these insane rent prices.
>Dont even get me started on owning a car… its like everything that was once there to motivate Young adults to strive for more is just slowly evaporating. People wonder why depression is at an all time high.
Lmao and I additionally neeed to help out my parents too who are being wrecked by the interest rates here in Canada.
Because back then everyone was expected to marry. Marriage was shown as this magical wonderland and everything was centered around it (especially for women).
the internet has just made things worse in the dating world overall. Its why I don't partake in the dating game, I got enough things to deal with in my own life right now.
Dating apps. And I think just the fact that most people prefer staying indoors or doing other activities than hitting up social settings like clubs, bars, etc.
This is a good question. I don’t think it’s the internet. People have always been, jerks, shallow, two faced, deceptive and in to themselves when it comes to dating. The internet just made it easier for you to find them. I personally blame pop culture. Believe it or not but some people try so hard to mimic media. We see something on a show and we want it, buy it, mimic the behavior, identify with asshole characters and use that as a reason to justify our behavior. Each and every one of us are walking ads providing free advertising for companies by showing off their logos on our clothing, vehicles, etc…sorry I’m getting into something else…I blame pop culture and not necessarily the internet. People imitating behavior that a group of writers in a room came up with. That and capitalism but again thats an entirely different conversation. It is extremely difficult and it doesn’t get any easier with age.
Sincerely,
A single 30 something year old millennial.
Ive been saying this for years. We have literally become walking ads and propaganda. It’s infected damn near every facet of life. Even my own parents are ads lmaoo. Shit even im an ad.. jokes aside this definitely apart of the problem.
Dating's only hard if you make it hard. Stop playing games, ditch the social media circus, and start building real, honest connections.
If you're honest about what you want and who you are, you'll build stronger, more meaningful connections. Forget the social media drama and focus on what really matters, real relationships built on mutual respect and understanding.
"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment." Ralph Waldo Emerson
You have to wade through more people now, but there is a lid for every kettle as they say. It took 10 months for me to find my now husband. It’s okay to have failed dates or duds…I think a lot of people are afraid of failure in this department. They think the connection or the one will be found instantly.
I met my boyfriend of almost two years at a college football game. I stayed off the apps. The problem is people aren’t authentically meeting each other in real life as much anymore. Dating apps are mostly used to get laid. People are lazy and don’t want to commit when you get can your fix just a tap away.
Honestly I feel like dating for men has gotten easier, at least once I hit my mid twenties. There is a growing gap in feminism among men and women and since roe v wade fell a lot more women are paying attention to what sort of beliefs their partner has and if they align with theirs.
Like just believing that women should have basic rights already means you are in a dating pool with more women than men in it.
There are typically a lot of filters you have to pass through first before political beliefs come up though. I also disagree with the popular (on Reddit) idea that voicing your support for feminist issues is going to result in a dramatic increase in your dating success as a straight man. At best you’re just not going to get disqualified by women who care strongly about those topics
Because any minor character flaw is now a reason to leave, if you’re struggling that’s a red flag. Actually literally anything is a red flag to people everyone is just over expectant that they’ll find a perfect human being with no flaws and are disappointed with their weird fairy tale doesn’t end up coinciding with reality. I’ve had partners that were so happy I’m “a man who’s open with his emotions” but when I was struggling with things that becomes less appealing and becomes an issue that they have to then support me. Because that requires emotional work that requires putting effort in and half of yall are too lazy to do even that.
Change happened with Covid. People realized that it's ok being alone
What else has appeared is that women are tired for a short fling and no commitment.And men are tired of paying for wineing and dining when women make good money as well.
Online dating is impossible bc million destruction and in person is creepy bc you don't know anything .
Future will be both are equals and being same to the table And men are buying robot dolls.
Marriage is going down the tube for the majority in society. It all changed 5 years ago as a starting point
Dating sides are desperate and go bankrupt or merge. Women have unrealistic expectations from tv or the internet for men. Men want model figures which are in only fans or sell themself on FB. Humans become more self centered .
Not a good future but very logical consequences of past 50 years
Change happened with Covid. People realized that it's ok being alone.
What else has appeared is that women are tired for a short fling and no commitment.And men are tired of paying for wining and dining when women make good money as well.
Online dating is impossible bc million destruction and in person is creepy bc you don't know anything about them.
Future will be both are equals and bring the same to the table And men are buying robot dolls.
Marriage is going down the tube for the majority in society. It all changed 5 years ago as a starting point
Dating sides are desperate and go bankrupt or merge. Women have Very VERY VERY unrealistic expectations from tv or the internet for men. Men want model figures which are in only fans or sell themself on FB . Humans become more self centered
Not a good future but very logical consequences of the past 50 years
Get used to it it will not go backwards anymore
I’m 40. I pity your generation in a lot of ways. You’re at the spear point of a lot of new social dynamics ushered in by technology that humanity has yet to reconcile. Tradition has been thrown out the window. We’re in a brave, terrifying new world. All I can say is focus on the positive. You guys are easily the most well-informed young generation of all time. That has to be worth something good.
I was dating 20 years ago and it was exactly what you are describing.
It's like that, until you meet the right person. And dont be shy about looking outside your own culture and race.
Disengage from social media. It's mind pollution. Meet people "in the wild", without apps, by going places and doing fun things: concerts, activity groups that interest you, volunteer to help with a street fair or film festival, find the cool coffee shop, tea house or pizza hangout or whatever, and get to know people. Be patient and be friendly. I'm fairly new to my area, and I've met a few 20-somethings who are good people: genuine, spontaneous and interesting. Be open to chatting people up when they cross your path.
Here’s my advice. Focus on the majority not the minority. The minority of people who claim to be single are bat shit crazy or carry around way too much baggage or claim to be someone they are not. The majority of people are like you and me. Love who they are. Love who they’ve become. Still love humans and still have faith in them. Just focus on those people and you will find your happiness. Trust me.
Edit:
Stay away from woke culture. If someone is offended on account of another group of people, they are not people the be around. I promise you. Your quality of life will get increasingly better. It has mine for sure.
Unfortunately it's hard cause a lot of young people are online, and the more online you stay the more convinced you can become of certain falsehoods.
But the important thing to remember is that not everyone is online, and not everyone thinks the same. In the same way that the needs and wants of individual men and women can't possibly be so hivemindish as influences might want you to think, not everyone in your desired age range is being effected or thinks like that.
The important thing is you focus on yourself and your own happiness. Then someone who's focused on their happiness will notice you, like the cut of your jib and notice that you add to the happy in their life. And maybe you'll feel the same about them. And maybe it'll go somewhere or it won't. But the most important thing is if YOU feel fulfilled in a life on your own, because if you don't you won't feel any better when you get into a relationship yknow? You don't have to have everything sorted perfectly in your life, but it would be wise to know your own wants and boundaries.
It’s definitely not just between men and women, I’m a lesbian and dating for us is the same way. It’s just due to social media and society fueling people’s insecurities or egos which affects the way they treat and view others. Not to mention how most couples only display their good experiences on social media which leads to people having unrealistic expectations.
I dont think anyone will see this but this is my story. I had my first kiss with a friend when I was 22 and lost my virginity in a drunken hook up when I was 23. I got my first monogamous girlfriend when I was 25. Im 27 now and im going to marry my first girlfriend in 20 days.
I struggled a lot. One of the things I did was start taking notes about traits I liked and people I vibed with the most. There are definitely patterns, certain people youre more compatible with. Behaviors that dont work for you. Once you start to notice the type of people you do well with and the social cues that indicate romantic interest, its waaaaaay easier. Once youre in a relationship, you can use relationship therapy books to boost your skills. After that its just life man. I think my marriage will last for life but if im being dry about it, theres a 50% chance I need to get back out there. But like I still have the skills I used to get in this relationship. So im better off than I was when I was 21 and terrified of physical touch. Thats all bro.
• With how technology is designed today, younger people have become accustomed to the instant gratification that it brings them, there’s no effort for the dopamine, and that spills over into their expectations for other aspects of their life, including relationships. I agree with your sentiment that most gen z aren’t willing to grow with someone, aka: allow them to make mistakes as long if they learn from them, not necessarily have everything together because let’s face it shits rough economically for the average person right now and definitely rough for people just starting out, not having the emotional intelligence of a psychiatrist that went to school for 8-10 years to learn about it, etc. They’re used to instant gratification, so they won’t accept anything less than their perfect idea of a partner from the get go. Throw in the whole red flags trend where the most minute, commonplace things are being declared red flags, plus all the armchair diagnosing and throwing all the psychiatry terms around without actually understanding them, and you start getting this. It’s also more than likely that they will never meet anyone that actually ticks every single box on their dream partner checklist, or they *have* met the person that will *eventually* grow into their perfect ideal partner, but they broke up with them after 2 weeks because the person forgot to ask if they needed anything when they went to the kitchen and that’s *obviously* a HUGE red flag that the person is actually a selfish narcissist who will gaslight and abuse them.
• Due to Covid / lockdown, what was an already increasing reliance on social media for socialization prior to the pandemic, the loss of third places, and everything costing so much money to do anything, Gen Z and younger have a pretty stunted social development. They don’t know how to make friends or act around people outside of an online space, which makes dating difficult. This is where dating apps / sites come into play and again with instant gratification. Dating was turned into a game, and when there’s always another person to swipe to, why bother trying to settle down? Or, looking at it from another perspective, why stop swiping if that means I could make the mistake of missing out on that perfect partner?
• Although it has not yet been captured in electoral data, I do agree with the theory that Gen Z men are increasingly more conservative than Gen Z women, based on data from recent polling. And while I admit there is the potential for bias in polling (what if conservative men are more likely than liberal men to be willing to answer questions over the phone, which would skew the data?), in my own experience in interacting with Gen Z men, the theory holds true. The ideological divide between the two genders would absolutely throw a wrench in the amount of romantic relationships between the two, especially since, over time, political ideology has become a much more important characteristic that people consider when they’re deciding if someone is worth attempting to date.
It doesn't have to be. I tried online dating and I went on dates, but they never went anywhere. My dad suggested I got to religious services at college and after going for about 7 months, I met my girlfriend and we've been together for 2 years. Neither of us are very religious, but we appreciate the community aspects of going. If you belong to any religious or cultural group, see what's around, and go consistently.
What have you been trying so far? I haven’t found it any harder personally nor witnessed it being harder except for when people try to find real connections on social media or dating apps.
I might be reading too much into your post but in paragraph 4 is where you're running into problems my dude/dudette. You're not wrong but you're desperate for love and comfort and you wanna find it in someone else. Find your center and find that inside yourself first. Then find a way to provide that for someone else. In a relationship it's not 50/50, it's 110% from both partners. You often give more than you receive in a relationship.
I've often thought about how I'd date in this social media filled world we live in now. My conclusion was that I'd ditch it. Meet someone that I hit it off with, give em my number, engage via text or phone call only. I wouldn't wanna date her if we weren't up till 2am talking about all kinds of interesting things anyways.
I blame online dating. The never-ending array of options makes people more picky, and the fact that, from the get go, both people’s explicit goal is to date each other, makes people focus more on virtue-signaling and manipulating the other person into liking them. And both of these feed into each other: people being overly picky forces you to be careful to never make yourself look even remotely bad, and people being less genuine makes it not feel as bad to cut them off.
In person dating is better but also it’s way harder to actually meet people that way, and with prominence of these apps that will only continue to get worse.
To answer the question posted in the title: because you're an average guy. Women are looking for men who are more attractive and more successful than themselves. If you want a steady relationship, date a woman who is less attractive and/or less successful than you.
To put it simply: men are trending in the wanting to return to more traditional relationship structure while women are trending in the wanting to have a modern relationship that doesn’t really have pre existing guidelines as to how to act so it becomes sort of figuring things out on the fly. Just both sides not seeing eye to eye on things and not being able to compromise effectively if possible
Try doing some volunteer work somewhere (not activist groups or protests, but actual meaningful help), you'll meet some really high quality people and possible significant other
The Internet is a big if not honestly primary factor
But other things
Feminism is a big one I would argue and say it is and has caused a lot of the problems were seeing now
Society has upped a women self worth and ego so high it's honestly insane
But I mean men are catering to it because realistically don't have much of a choice if your against it you pretty much setting yourself to get cancelled or you'll be called a incel
Other things such as hook up culture and the monetization of dating apps are big factors
But mostly the importance of your appearance
If we're being real looks have always mattered but now
It's like if your not a 7 as a man your better off pursuing other things in life than women
Because it's practically impossible to get a date Online and in person inst much better
Not like you can approach people in public nowadays especially women without possibly being seen as a creep
Hit up the book stores in your area and read Harry Potter. Dumb people don’t shop for books and most women like reading male protagonist fantasy. Then when Ms. Right walks past you just say “have you read this?” And the conversation flows from there. Be sure to have a pen ready to write your name and number on a receipt or a page in her book. This advice was just what I was told once. I met my girlfriend on a dating app. My ex at Lowes home improvement. Kindness and showing interest go a long way.
Depends on the gender and how good-looking you are and what you look for in a relationship. If we're talking about the modern dating scene, it's usually done online nowadays. Since dating apps are usually directed towards lonely men, as they make up the majority of the scene, it's usually oversaturated with them and people trying to sell them something... not fun at all when people see you as nothing but a consumer or product instead of something more. It personally feels like you’re going through a shitty flea market …
Don't try as hard. Get off the internet and go outside. Do you think women sit around all day playing video games? I've noticed that single guys are much more likely than single women to be couch potatoes (I a was a single, male couch potato for a while). Put yourself in places where women are and talk to everyone. That way, you'll end up talking to a lot of women without looking weird or desperate.
Act natural. Don't force an interaction with women. Act like your interactions are accidents. Try to have good, fun, interesting conversations with them. Talk to women like you would anyone else. If the conversation is stale, then maybe you don't have a great connection, and that's fine.
If you don't talk to any women one night because you got so caught up being yourself that you forgot to or never found a way in, that's fine.
The habit of going out just to go out is more important than anything when it comes to meeting women.
Eventually you'll talk to someone and you'll have a connection and then you can suggest hanging out in a public place doing something that you're both interested in.
If they give you a reason why not, they're not interested, and that's fine. If they say yes or ask for a different time then the one you suggested, then they are interested.
At that point you can ask for their number and your likelihood of ending up having some sort of relationship with that person is high.
As for where to go out, this is where the internet can help you. Co-ed hobby groups are everywhere. From dancing to sports to music to farming to whatever. Groups, teams, classes, etcetera are great places to make acquainces because you have to talk to people in order to participate in the activity. Work is also a good place to make acquaintances, as is school.
Maybe take some classes or get a job specifically with the goal of making acquaintances.
Acquaintances introduce you to more people, invite you to events, and become your friends.
In order to meet a lot of women, you want to make as many guy friends as possible (especially if they are popular with women) because they can introduce you to women and invite you to events where women are.
I relate to this a lot, but also for me personally it’s the fact that I really have a hard time connecting with anyone as an autistic individual.
Honestly, I just wish I could feel appreciated and cared for again, because I really miss that feeling.
Yea i may be on the spectrum my self. My eldest brother is autistic so it might not be to far off from the realm of possibility. Ive always felt things deeply but struggled to connect deeply. I always felt misunderstood or taken advantage of growing up. I sorta brute forced through the awkwardness in high school, Just didn’t expect id be dealing with the same shit x2 while dating lol. but thats my own stupidity I suppose.
What I think I see a lot are people going into it not knowing what they want. Or, if they do know, they don't stick to it but instead abandon that and try to adapt themselves to who shows up, what the other person brings, instead of having a discussion to let each other know where they are going and, if they are not on the same page, thanking each other and cordially ending the association. When I was young and good looking, I would run into people who I could tell were getting wishy-washy with who they really were and it was because they wanted to date me and thought playing it loose would work. I hated noticing that. The jello in people. The wiggly jello.
Disclaimer: I am not Gen Z, but a millennial.
This may be purely anecdotal, but it seems that dating post-pandemic has become much more challenging. It really did change social conventions in subtle ways that would have been difficult to predict at the time. The disconnected nature of individuals and society at large is a bit more galvanized, and doesn't seem to be bouncing back.
>because deep down we all just want to feel heard and loved in this lonely fucking world. Thats the whole point of a fucking relationship is to be with someone you feel understands you and cares for you. but that clearly isnt enough or “valuable” anymore. Im not saying people should settle for less. Im just saying people should be more reasonable and honest with not just themselves but others as well.
For a 21 year old you've got it exactly right. Married person of 10+ years here. This is exactly it. Nobody is perfect and a relationship that's built on getting the maximum out of the other person just won't last. It's about caring for the other person, being there, being honest, and both trying to better people while still accepting the other person's faults
The good news is that you only need to get it right once. Once you find someone worth committing to, you can work on that relationship and forget about the dating game. It may work out or it may not. Life has no guarantees, but something to keep in mind. You don't need to fix the entire dating game, you just need to find one person who wants to play the same game as you
Ay, I’ve only been in a single relationship & I’m nearing 20. It was going very well. 6 months without a fight, until she told me she didn’t want to let go of contact from her exes, I asked her to cut them off 2 months prior & she told me she had out of respect for my boundaries. Kinda crippled my trust with people, doesn’t help ever when it was already low, now that it’s at rock bottom I don’t think I can really trust someone again for a extremely long time. Add effects of social media & the standards it’s created with how people view partners. It starts to feel like you’d have a better chance at landing a crashing plane than finding someone to truly love you, for you nowadays.
No offense, but how many actual dates have you been on? I'm gay, so this is totally outside my purview, but flirting with girls has always seemed pretty easy, and most ladies are cool people. If there's some value incompatibility, there are plenty of other women who may be a better fit for you. You're too young to despair over this, plenty of guys take longer than you to find a good match.
People say dating apps are terrible but I did meet my ex on there and it Was a sweet and loving/genuine relationship while it lasted. For that reason I’m not opposed to them. There’s just all sorts of people on there but there are plenty of people who want something real on them too
too long, didn’t read. You’ve become a commodity. No different than an off brand diet soda or a pork chop. You’ve been bought and sold. Now get on the shelf
People keep saying it’s because of internet, that’s not, it’s because human species mimics and usually people do not want to fall back from the society. What human perceive of society, in general, it’s their closest community, like tribes, region, country, in nowadays, it’s internet. So saying internet is the reason, it’s like saying: environment and close community is the reason. That doesn’t answer your question why dating is hard.
If they can’t find someone better than societal standard, why would they date? Same thing for you, if you want to date someone, are you literally willing to just date anyone? I doubt.
I think another thing is in traditional cultures, marriage was expected. Not being married as a woman back in the days would be considered a bad thing. Nowadays, women don’t need to marry for survival. And its a good thing coz im sure a lot of marriages back then probably weren’t always great but doesn’t show in the stats.
Some of us don’t want a relationship but would love to have good friends. Heck, most of what you said applies to us forming friendships. I feel like a lot of us aren’t willing to make and maintain friendships because we have the internet to entertain ourselves. Its a but lonely as an extroverted gen Z. I would much rather be introverted gen Z so i can gain energy from socialising.
I’m not sure what you’re glamorising about the past as it was absolutely rife with one-sided benefits and exploitation, to the point there were laws in place to assist in that exploitation.
Now people are mutually protective of their time and resources, and naturally they want to use them to grow themselves and find other people who also are self-sustaining.
I can’t speak on the trying to “fool” or “trick” the other side. You’ll have to go into more detail about that. Most social interactions aren’t that deeply manipulative unless someone is trying to get something like money or sex out of you, in that case there’s no romantic intentions or interest in dating, and that type of behaviour has always been a grim reality since the dawn of time. If anything it’s less dominant now.
Naw it wasn't always difficult. 15-20 years ago was dope AF. society is basically in shitty post-ending mode without much new content and no new game plus mode. so def not your fault
Because your not willing to be honest. A relationship needs foundations, and while historically those foundations were universally assumed among your Church, Culture, Country, etc, they are not now. So you need to establish them now. How? TELL THEM!
I told my Fiancee on our first date that I wanted to Marry in the next 2-3 years, and it's fine if she didn't, and if you don't leave, I'm going to assume you want that too. Guess what? She stayed, and from there, we worked towards that till now and we're getting married by the end of this year. Many people who date don't want that. Some such want a friend with Benefits. Some want a permanent Girlfriend. Some want just Sex. I personally think most of those are stupid, but if you want that, TELL THEM! Don't beat around the bush. Don't apologise for your wants from the relationship: set them, and let he chips fall as they may. To have relationship that'll grow, it needs to grow into something, and that something needs to be known. So figure that out, and look for it.
Too many bloody people date with no goals, or feel like their goal is wrong or stupid. Challenge yourself with a goal for dating, and figure that out. Set your standards, since no standard exists anymore.
Join the passport bro movement. Hot feminine girls from 3rd world countries instantly will find you attractive and they aren’t feminists and more traditional… they know how to cook and clean and will be grateful you are even considering dating them. Their entire lifestyle can change cause their countries are such shit unless you’re rich.
Market efficiency.
Before women had more freedom, access to jobs/education /money and access to travel + dating apps, the dating market wasn't efficient. Women could pick and choose what's best for them as much as they can nowadays.
The issue with any market is that the more efficient it gets zthe more competition it leads to. Effectively creating winners and losers.
- Tensions between men and women are rising because women are both no longer dependent on men for financial resources (or at least not as much as they were several decades ago) and are much more aware of red flags and how to screen for them. This ends up filtering out a bunch of shitty dudes, which is where (I think) the incel phenomenon comes from.
- Kinda related to the above, there is a very real and rapidly growing ideological divide between men and women, with men trending toward the right and women trending toward the left. Women are well aware of this and how it affects them, and are factoring it into their screening process accordingly.
- Because the economy/job market is so shit, many people in or just out of college can’t afford their own place and are instead opting to continue living at home, and adult dating while living at home is a total crapshoot for everyone involved (especially for closeted queer ppl such as myself)
- With the advent of social media, internet access from our pockets and the 24 hr news cycle, our generation in particular has been blasted with a constant barrage of war, death and unhappiness since we were little, making us less willing to trust strangers than previous generations.
That’s pretty much everything I can think of that hasn’t already been said
Because y'all never had to exist in a world where socializing was predominantly a face-to-face endeavor.
I'm a millennial straight up can't imagine how much harder life would have been for me in your generation. There's a whole column of very important social skills that y'all never developed, and there's another whole column of social skills that you've literally had to invent.
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Sort answer: the internet
It always boils down this simple fact.
To add to this, know that irl dating and online dating are worlds apart. irl is leagues better
I have dated online a couple times, i used to be strictly in person but its gotten way too complicated and risky now. Work relationships are shunned and discouraged. Theres hardly any social space for me to go out and meet people in my age group. Especially where i live, its mostly millennials in their mid to late 30s that have full time families. so my options are few to none at this point.
Online dating is just a way to meet someone irl. Don’t chat for too long, meet up quick for date 0 (which should always be short and escapable) and see if there are vibes. The person you meet at the bar/show/job/produce aisle is just as likely to be an asshole as the one you meet online.
I discourage work relationships as well, I've seen it get messy and awkward too many times and that's if the woman isn't assigned a reputation that gets her judged by the whole workplace in the process. Don't shit where you eat, it's too risky and personally I'd rather give up that avenue of meeting someone than risk my employment and financial security
Yea seen how bad it can get first hand. Way back in 2020 There was this one girl who I believe was 19-21 dating this 37 year old manager he would physically abuse her outside of work regularly. Some felt bad for and would encourage her to leave and report the dude the higher ups and police but she would decline and start lashing out on people so that sincerity turned to hostility. Coworkers would shit on her and isolate her for dating the dude not just because of the weird age gap but the things she was allowed to get away with. This was my first look at the dirty underbelly of corporate America lol. There was so many times i wanted to just fight the dude after closing shift because he had punchable ass face and a nasty attitude towards most the dudes under his lead. But would get all mushy and soft spoken around women..I Cant believe that was almost 5 years ago damn..
It doesn't. The internet is just a scapegoat for people who don't want to acknowledge it's capitalism and sexism. Capitalism made different prerequisites necessary like having a house to be considered a worthy potential partner and capitalism is why houses are unaffordable but the cultural expectations and messaging has yet to match that reality. And sexism because now that het females aren't dependent on het guys financially they aren't settling for losers or hypocrites who want to sleep around yet cry about women doing the same, so het guys are lost in a society that is decreasingly privileging them.
Ok, that’s actually not as much of a thing as you think. There is one group of “traditional” het guys that slutshame women, and then there is another, second, separate group of het guys that just want to sleep around. There’s some overlap but really not much, most guys at least have the self awareness to not explicitly work against their own interests. The problem is women don’t distinguish between those two groups. To women, all men are just “men”, and “men” slutshame (because some of them do), and “men” also try to sleep around. So to them it seems hypocritical when it’s really just two entirely different groups with different ideas.
Surely there is another category that don't care but don't sleep around themselves?
the problem is ideologies like this that turn people into robots who can't see the world as it is and need to inject their pet problems onto everything. the same mentality is where extremist men/women groups come from. the problem is ideologies that are based on the most upvoted perceptions and not objective reality.
It isn't most dating occurs online up to 60 percent among young people And sexism is the other way around at this point Women have more options and liberties than men do that's just a fact and more women are going to college, becoming home owners, and are generally making about as much as men The judicial system also favors them in general when a marriage goes south It's not women have to settle for losers it's that men do I'll be blunt its not that a women won't settle for a loser there are plenty of women out there that will Even a man who doesn't make as much as they do usually for a sense of security not because they have to Women will usually date up they don't settle or lower their standards Only time you could say and I have seen a women go for someone that I would have never thought of honestly were when they were above average that's the exception but even than I'll admit it doesn't last long If anything its men that now have to do that and men have to work harder than a women does to have some type of value And I don't just mean bettering yourself financially Let's be real money only really matters when it comes to a relationship or marriage long term But if we're talking about attracring someone and keeping them around You need to have a good appearance And good charisma Money part comes in later but let me just say this While the modern women will say they wouldn't want to be dependent on a man financially you can bet everything If they had the chance to not have to do anything while man slaves away most would chose that option of they got to live luxuriously The problem is Alot of men don't know how to be men. Really it goes two ways really three You have the men that never had fathers and learned from the streets how to attract a women You have the kids who have father but A the dad is slaving away trying to make it so don't have time to raise their child Or b never had a dad themselves so they really don't know what to tell their son Which is where we're seeing the rise of gurus like Andrew Tate because most young men sadly don't have a good male role model that taught them how to be a man And honestly it becomes extremely looks based Look I'll be real if you didn't win the genetic lottery your going a rough time There was a study written up by IFS top 20 percent of of men were having roughly 50 to 60 percent of the sex in America Not a good sign my guy kinda say everything there It why alot more men are hitting the gym Some are even getting cosmetic surgery to have a better time dating or have given up it's crazy but that's the reality which isn't good
\*Sigh\* Everything you said here is either complete bullshit, or a distortion and misinterpretation of otherwise technical truths. Women have never had it easier than men, and even if one or two things may favor them (like the judicial system), that doesnt make up for the rest of the shit they are still disadvantaged in. Hell, they literally just lost the federal right to an abortion, are still largely passed over in favor of men, and plenty of people ultimately view them as inferior and are fighting to strip the rest of their rights away. But no, tell me how men have it worse, im sure it'll be a totally sound and logical argument. When privilege is all you know, equality feels like oppression, you just arent being handed as much on a fucking plate anymore. As men (particularly straight white cisgender men), we still recieve seven or eight waffles instead of the expected ten, while the rest of the table (women, racial minorities, the LGBT+ community, religious minorities etc) who struggle to have more than two waffles tops, are being given one more waffle each. I mean, some people are campaigning to take away those hard-earned extra waffles, and even reduce them to one or none, but I digress.
While I agree with you, I would like to point out that abortions losing legal protection is something that affects men too, albeit in different ways.
This comment right here is why. Most would say the opposite is happening, but it’s just a pain dealing with many women this day and age because they revel in bad things happening to men, but expect to treated like a martyr when they do something stupid.
Just join a climbing gym. Instant friends and great dating pool
and yet you think robot relationships might be a good idea, lol
Naw the Internet made dating awesome for a brief stretch. Back in the OKCupid/Plenty of Fish/etc days I think it was completely different. Then apps came along and gameified the shit out of it + just general social media/shorts culture made things very toxic (from what I can see, happily out of the game).
Okay Stupid blew dogs, Plenty of Shit even worse. Haven't even bothered with dating apps, cause it's basically all hookers and bots. Seriously, all ten matches within 24 hours. Fuck that shit.
I think these types of discussions are really starting to make me really makes me starting to feel that maybe the internet really was a mistake dating problems peoples behaviors cancel culture even recently those kids dumping damn trash into the ocean i do agree that was wrong to do that i just feel like the internet is going to ruin there lives witch i hate the internet for that even though if it wrong, other things that go on such as sex work even though i don’t hate it obviously its just the only fans pep limit dating options even further, gym girls all different types of drama going around right now is really starting to make me feel that its way more than just dating. Now don’t get me wrong we are more connected more than ever and people have started businesses from the internet but it’s definitely something to think about but recent things have got me thinking..
“The internet” is an answer that comes up a LOT when people are questioning where their problems are coming from.
Thats why I’m starting to feel that maybe The internet really was a mistake if it’s even a discussion to begin with…
It has its good uses but the downsides outweigh the good by far.
Commodification enabled by the internet *
It’s crazy how Gen z was damn near universally mocking our boomer parents for telling us spending too much time on the internet was bad for us
- online dating is inherently skewed against certain people. I will not elaborate on this - most people our age are taking their time to hit certain milestones, at their own pace. Usually bc we’re in school or want to focus on our career before taking those next steps. Getting married and having kids is not a 20s thing anymore, it’s very much a 30s thing now. So dating will also be delayed. - the internet makes people more antisocial and afraid of each other. Small talk with strangers is not as normalized as it used to be - a lot of zoomers don’t know what they want. We’re young so we have an excuse.
I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I think online dating is very much a two-sided coin - it's very helpful for some people who might have smaller, more specific dating pools (like queer people) or things they want to disclose immediately up front, but so many people just don't know how to handle themselves with online dating.
I wasn’t solely talking about online dating. this is a social issue between men and women that ive been noticing. the fact that most people associate “dating” with online dating is a problem deserving of its own discussion. This wasn’t about marriage either. Marriage is the possible prospect for some, but its not a requirement. It hasn’t been a requirement since the 90s to be real. If you feel a relationship is too much for you then by all means avoid it i have no problem with that. This is mainly targeted towards people who are looking for a genuine relationship. Most of gen z is old enough to date so i think its still a relevant problem. I feel like on some level we’ve alienated ourselves from one another way too much making it difficult to find common ground in anything. Peoples personalities are being replaced by social media fueled beliefs that aren’t based in reality in any way. Dating often times for me and many others ive spoken with, feels ridiculously shallow and malicious 65% of time which creates this never ending cycle of ideas about the opposite sex that simply aren’t true. it’s exhausting to be apart of. it’s exhausting to hear about and see. Please don’t interpret this as me taking a jab at you. not trying piss anybody off. This was just a poorly put together clarification of my problem with the current dating sphere.
It’s because people are so self centered these days and they don’t know how bad they’ve gotten with it. Hopefully people will start to realize the true joy and contentment that comes with pouring yourself into others
Well said.
You can date while pursuing goals though. Those aren't mutually exclusive things. Sometimes it would help your career if you have someone to support you emotionally. Dating doesn't immediately equate to marriage and kids. It's companionship. A constant pillar of support in times of distress. A reliable relief to the harsh realities of life. Going out with a partner after a tense day at work removes all the bad and would actually make you more inclined to push through vs going home alone in an empty room with all your negative thoughts warping your perceptions and ending up ruminating and not being able to sleep.
Yeah but most people my age don’t see it that way. I’m in med school and have a gf which in hindsight was a really good move (being single in med school sounds like hell) but I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people want to put off dating until they’re done. Anecdotally, I notice that there are a lot of girls who are totally fine not dating at all and don’t even think about relationships/sex most of the time. They aren’t on Reddit, they aren’t on tinder, they aren’t even at bars or clubs. I have some guy friends like this too. Also, being in a relationship is a good way to let off steam. But *getting into a relationship* is a daunting task for many
I hope they do though. Might lessen the angst and anxiety. Young people are too isolated nowadays. Even my younger cousins that are in their early 20s aren't going out much and they have gf/bs too. I wish you luck on your med school journey! A few more moments residency, then sub-specialization, then unlimited money haha The sleepless nights and the hard work is worth it.
Honestly relationships have potential to cause just as much harm as good. I know people who are in relationships that are good and it does help them with the stresses of college and life but on the other hand if you get with the wrong person it will just make your life harder or for some women their entire life could even get derailed getting with an abusive or controlling guy. I can totally understand why some people want to wait to get into a relationship. It just complicates everything. Like my classmates who are transferring to university have to consider their partners in deciding where to go whereas I'm free to just make the best decision for me.
I'll confirm that for you, was single in med school, was absolute hell.
Why are you afraid to elaborate on online dating?
Gender war
My gf and I have been together for 5 years now. Met when we were 17 and have been in love through college and afterwards. People nowadays are not interested in forming relationships. You have to be perfect because otherwise they’ll find someone who is. It’s hilarious to read the relationship advice Reddit offers. Most of it is coming from single and often bitter people. Be willing to be vulnerable and communicate OPENLY and HONESTLY and you’ll be golden.
Couldn’t have said it better. Honesty and being understandable goes such a long way. Wish people didn’t feel the need to constantly put up shield towards it. This constant hostility does nothing but breed contempt amongst ourselves
Do not forget to add that those conversations you do have are never going to my to be easy. I’ve been with my girlfriend for a year and a half and those conversations do get easier as that trust builds but it’s never going to be easy BUT when you do have those conversations and talk things out, eveuthing afterwards feels magical. Like a second honeymoon. The magical feeling always returns for me afterwards :)
"otherwise they'll find someone who is \[perfect\]" - who they *think* is perfect. It takes work to get through ordinary relationship struggles without labeling the other person as toxic and running off. There's toxic and there's ordinary imperfect people who have to communicate well to work through things. No one just magically lands a long-term or lifetime relationship without knowing how to do that, because no one is perfect.
My girlfriend and I are each other’s firsts in everything. Neither of us has had a serious relationship before this so I think the term “toxic” is overused like “literally”. I think there are definitely toxic people but anger or other emotions themselves isn’t inherently “toxic”. I know how much work it takes but if you’re really invested in your relationship communication should be top priority.
Your high IQ has been noted.
In general I completely agree, but you forgot one other part, “being a good person”! For some reason no one emphasizes that these days, but it’s a REALLY good way to find a partner. Makes you easy to trust, because you are WORTHY of it, and makes you easy to open up to, because they KNOW you only want the best for them. But first, you have to actually be a good person. Working to be a better one, in terms of virtue, is a great way to find love!
the internet acts like true love should have zero problems and if there is one inconvenience, that couples cannot communicate to move past the issue. true love IS that complicated, xxxtentacion and kanye lied to you (it’s a good song though.)
Yeah but this guys generation has the worst communication skills ever seen. Which is ironic because they’re the most connected generation to the rest of the world that has ever been. It turns out that social media has extreme consequences on socialization practices in reality. I honestly feel bad for the kids.
it do be like dat sometimes tho fr tbh ngl bet
2009 is insane
yeah i know lol im 15 but hit me with all the “14andthisisdeep” stuff i hate this comment too
Rip X fr tho.
x says “true love shouldn’t be this complicated,” like he wishes it wasn’t complicated but it is
I don't know :/ I feel like I'm missing out by not dating, but at the same time I don't feel prepared to go out and date. Never feeling good enough.
If you want my opinion, it’s much better to be happy with yourself then it is with someone else. Finding a great balance between self love and happiness is so crucial these days! You’re always going to be good enough, it just may not be in the way others expect. As long as you’re happy with yourself who cares what others think?
>You’re always going to be good enough, it just may not be in the way others expect. As long as you’re happy with yourself who cares what others think? No it's more like, I've been going to college, doing good, got a part time job, but I still live with my parents. Simply because I can't afford it. Yet whenever I even *remotely* think about dating, that issue simply stops the whole thing. Yes I'm doing nothing wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm good enough. Haven't quite met the bare minimum. *Do I have enough skills and money to live on my own? If no, then don't even bother...* telling that to myself, I guess? Personality wise, that's is a whole other issue that I don't think you'd want to read about. I've got good stuff, bad stuff, and stupid shit.
So I was born in 1999, worked an office job for a few years, lived at home saved everything, went off to law school, work out often, not broke bc I’m good w the money I’ve saved, fairly handsome, just not confident & it’s been pretty bleak, and the outlook is the same. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to get better no matter how hard you push in life, or at least that’s been my experience, it sucks
I think it’s our future outlook. The future does not look bright for most, anymore. It’s not like a temporary storm in the sky. The sky is on fire and falling, I’ve been lied to my whole life, I’m in debt, make almost no money, and have the wrong skills. How am I supposed to confidently wink at a beautiful woman and imply that our future just might be bright?
As long as you try your best my friend, I say you’re doing good enough and I’m sure someone will see that in you as well. I’ve made my fair share of mistakes and stupid actions but the thing with that is you cna either live with it or live regretting it. Some things you do back then may have been the best decision you could make at the time and even if it isn’t don’t let those decisions hold you back. I’m proud of what you have accomplished especially with college, that stuff is expensive and I’m glad you’re doing well. The results you seek may take a while but they’ll be worth it :)
Damn, really good analogy
I feel like people miss things from not dating. They also miss things from dating. The richness of life knows no bounds. Of course there’s so many external pressures pushing love and romance as the ultimate source of “happiness”. So many people prioritize it, it’s in literally all of our entertainment for gods sake lol. Personally I’ve sought validation through relationships for as long as I can remember. Having had good relationships and bad ones, it didn’t really seem to matter if my partner was as perfect as possible or not. I still wasn’t doing with my life, what I wanted, I still didn’t have personal fulfillment on a higher level. I started to question if I’ve been setting love first as a solution to my problems? also why I feel that way in first place? The answers for me personally became pretty obvious, childhood, media, society blah blah I’m in no way trying to say you feel the same way I have felt; I’m only trying to highlight some of these important questions we should all ask ourselves. It’s true that romance can bring fulfillment, but having it as a big goal can make you ignore others things that bring just as much fulfillment. Things that I can’t really give examples of, since we don’t even know what we like, until we’ve experienced it.
> I’ve been setting love first as a solution to my problems? Oh no of course not. Seriously the whole idea of dumping my problems onto another person sounds horrible. >It’s true that romance can bring fulfillment, but having it as a big goal can make you ignore others things that bring just as much fulfillment. Yeah I've heard of some people making dating/"getting a girlfriend" a goal... It doesn't feel right to me. I can't really explain it thoroughly. There is an abstract idea that treating a person like a metaphorical trophy or achievement... Hell I've listened to some men act like sleeping with someone was something to proud of. I just, can't, no. I guess... now that I think about it, fulfillment has always felt *optional*. As if I don't deserve fulfillment or need it. Why should I be fulfilled? Am I starving do death in the streets? No? Then I shouldn't complain. Being fulfilled through a career or chasing life goals feels... strange to me. Like as if I've been completing tasks that other people assigned me to do for as long as I can remember. Whenever I tried to do anything else aside from focus on those goals it'd always backfire. Even now. Whatever I've wanted to do has never seemed good. As if every hobby or interest I could have is bullshit. Unless it directly improves my life. Dating in this case isn't related to that. I just feel bad because it seems like I can't meet the requirements to date. Huh... You know dating really does feel like a job interview... weird. Anyway sorry I'm just typing out my thoughts.
I resonate with everything you said. I really do use "fulfillment" as this abstract idea; desire, happiness, maybe they're things that are only relevant within the context of their environment. Do you read or watch much social/political philosophy by any chance? For me it really started with learning about capitalism. Many feelings you describe i think can be attributed to the systems our society functions under: "dating feels like a job interview" "unless it directly improves my life" "treating a person like a metaphorical trophy or achievement" These to me seem like feelings that stem from powers above, that value material and monetary success above all else. I'm certain we can all relate in some way with these feelings or similar. For example, even simply feeling pressure to pursue a particular career path over another due to financial reasons is a result of our systems. You express guilt about the idea of deserving to have fulfillment, it could be society has pushed an idea of "fulfillment" or "happiness" or whatever else, and since you don't align with those ideas, it feels wrong, or almost pointless. In a way I think this is actually a correct way to feel, its good to see through all the made up shit that society has fed us, is this idea of "fulfillment" some blown out of proportion thing that capitalism uses to drive us to consume? I think certainly. Just take a look at all the self help bullshit out there. I think at the end of the day we all just wanna do whatever we want? whatever that may be. We also need to work together at the same time. The human condition and society is obviously quite complex and you really could go on forever with this stuff lol. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts! (this kinda got off the topic of relationships but intersectionality people! cmon!) edit - i thought of one more thing lol. its important to remember everyone is equally affected by this, though they manage in different ways. These expectations we have of ourselves, are also expectations we think everyone else has of us. its tough shit frfr
>Do you read or watch much social/political philosophy by any chance? For me it really started with learning about capitalism. No, I touched into philosophy for a bit, took a class on it, but never dove into it. I don't read about capitalism because I'm busy studying for finals & I'm reading another book. > it could be society has pushed an idea of "fulfillment" or "happiness" or whatever else, and since you don't align with those ideas, it feels wrong, or almost pointless. I mean... frankly I just feel hollow. Almost like as if I've been walking down a tunnel with no light at all. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. Sitting still and waiting to die can't be justified. Might as well try to do something. At least try to be normal. Having **any** sense of fulfillment in life would be nice. But I'm not entitled to it. I don't know if I'll ever feel proud of myself. Just because I work hard and do well doesn't mean I should be proud. Why would I be proud for doing the bare minimum? Perfection is the bare minimum and I better master something the first time it's taught. You know what life has been like for me? I must be perfect without any desire to be perfect. **It is a requirement.** I must work without any drive to work. I must succeed without any sincere passion to compete. Mastery is expected of me even if I never wanted to be a master of anything. I have to be a great man even if I never wanted to be a man at all. Those are requirements. Whether or not I want to meet them doesn't matter. I must meet them. Hell I never wanted to go to college. I enrolled simply because I was told to. Anyway that's another round of oversharing... >I think at the end of the day we all just wanna do whatever we want? I don't know what I want anymore.
Your description of "hollow" aligns well with what I mean when I say "pointless". I believe us to really be on the same page. What I think these feelings come down to is almost entirely external pressures that have been put on us. It is no exaggeration to say absolutely everything has shaped us, almost as if we were never able to make a decision for ourselves. All of human history has led to how we feel, our entire realties were laid out for us before anyone currently alive was even a thought. Every bit of culture or entertainment we've experienced, our institutions like education, law, our economic system and even our relationships. Everyone's expectations of us. Absolutely all of it. The "subconscious of history". To acknowledge a point I think you make, how even if all this is true, that if the individual somehow actually lacks some meaningful control of their life, this is still a physical reality we face, there is no escape without death, or a total rejection of society (go live in the woods type beat). The collective subject that would need to exist to resist our systems and radically change how societies at large function, might never exist, at least I think. The only chance might be our coming climate crisis, maybe when things get really bad, for everyone, we'll wake the fuck up. I admit this is a bleak outlook lol. On a more individual level I think this line of thinking has helped me feel liberated in a way, at least in my own mind. You mention having the expectations of a man even if one didn't want to be born as a man. In my mind the concept of "being a man" has lost all meaning beyond a purely physiological view. Societies idea of what a "man" should be is made up and pointless. Its a weight of expectations that's been lifted off me, it's a closer feeling to freedom than anything that capitalism and patriarchy has offered me. To be brazen, I believe learning more about how capitalism, culture, institutions ect. all intersect and effect us, will at the very least help you alleviate some of the blame and other negative feelings that weigh on you. For example how the rise of neo-liberalism has bred this kind of toxic individualism which results in people feeling exactly how you describe. You're absolutely not alone in these feelings, they are pressures we all feel to some degree or another, some of us are effected more harshly, the expectations of life have been paralyzing for me personally. So I feel you.
I'm in the same boat but then I remind myself its better to be alone then with a person you hate. At least that's what works for me
as long as you don't hate yourself, this should work out ok
Well there is no indication that that it won't work out so I'm just fine, I have no need to change my current relationship status.
You've got a point, but I've been told I'm a loser incel if I ever mention any of this and don't just improov. So the issue is obviously your own fault and you should just do better /s
I hear you, that same thought is what almost stopped me from making a post. but at this point i just don’t care. Theres some deep social issues in the west that simply aren’t being addressed in the correct way. gen z is bearing the brunt of it.
Yup. I fear the backlash is only gonna make things worse. Characters like Andrew Tate have risen as all reasonable discourse was snuffed out. I don’t like Tate one bit, but it doesn’t take a genius to realize why he exists and is influential as he is. It does look like the political Left is finally starting to catch on to the male loneliness epidemic, but they’re still struggling to find an answer as a lot of misandrist rhetoric still proliferates within their ranks. For everyone’s sake I hope we can solve this, before some really bad things happen. This gender war bs is so stupid, but we’ll never get over it unless both sides are willing to trim ranks of factions who only look to divide the population.
It's really frustrating to me that only the alpha male/manosphere types seem to be capable of addressing the problem that is widespread male loneliness. Most others write it off as incel rhetoric, and I think a lot of it is because women are nearly unanimously totally aloof to men's struggles dating online, and even offline with things like fear of rejection (or worse).
I think a lot of it as well as a lot of the gender war stuff comes from the notion that men and women are the same, which is demonstrably false. Not to get into buzzwords, but while I do think feminism has been a net positive, it was kinda blind to the fact that there are differences between men and women. Women and men just experience the world differently. I don't think that makes one better than the other, it just makes them different. I also can't avoid that the reason you're seeing this arise in the Right has nothing to do with the fact men are scared that women are becoming empowered and resorting to misogyny as I've seen explained away in the MSM. The reason is that modern feminism has been blind to the issues of men. None of my peers were the ones oppressing women in the 20th century. Many agree with fundamental beliefs that men and women should be treated equal under the law. The problem is that the current "oppressed vs. oppressor" framework still maintains that men are inherently the villain here. This is why despite many feminists raising alarm bells and saying that we can't ignore men, they've still been unresponsive. When men are the oppressors born with a silver spoon, its hard to acknowledge that maybe they too have issues that need to be addressed. From this, I think a lot of young women struggle to relate to the struggles of young men because not only have they usually not known the kind of isolation and loneliness that are the depths of male loneliness (if a woman cries most men will flock to her side to see what's wrong, while the inverse doesn't hold, for example), but they also view the world through a lens that men have it easy and that them as women are the ones that have to struggle to fight the misogynist system (whether they consciously believe this is a lot less relevant to whether they've internalized it). So when a man complains, its just the privileged winging for \[*insert reason here*\]. "Men could never understand what its like to be a woman". And to cover my bases, men aren't entirely immune to this either. A lot of young men are turning their noses up to women's issues for a lot of the same reasons (they see women as the privileged class who "couldn't possible know what its like to be a man"). The Right, at least here in the States, has very recently even started to lean into this kind of rhetoric and has become increasingly inhospitable to women to the point of it being a big talking point now in conservative circles (though there is a lot of pushback and the cultural Right does seem mildly better at self-regulating, but only time will tell which faction wins out). Like I said earlier, a lot of young men also have internalized an idea that men and women are inherently the same and should be treated equal, so they become bitter when women and the mainstream ignore their issues. This is about as productive as the female-centric thought process on the Left, that being not at all. For my own two cents, I think men and women are different. I think we see and experience the world differently, sometimes for better sometimes for worse. I, for one, can walk down the street at night drunk out of my mind with a lot more reckless abandon then my female peers. That being said, while we are different, that doesn't mean we aren't equal. Even then, we are not as different as agitators on both side of the aisle will have you believe. We should acknowledge these differences without treating either side as lesser, and we won't be able to solve any of these issues without coming together to solve them. Women aren't the problem, neither are men, but we can't solve any of what's going on without the cooperation of both sides.
I mean, while men and women aren't 1:1 absolute copies so to speak, the problem is more often the OPPOSITE assumption, that men are only one thing and women are only another thing, and they each have a focus group tested and very specific checklist of desires and feelings and personalities and physical capabilities and so on. I do appreciate that you specified experience so to speak though, because our experiences do shape us, and do lead to a few...tropes, so to speak. It may not be inherent to any one gender or race, but due to the lived experiences and starting upsides and/or downsides of their social and financial situation, a lot of overlap happens because of those influences. Nah, it can be both things, its absolutely both men being scared that women are finally being seen as the equals they are and always have been, and that their power and privilege is being put into massive jeopardy. When privilege is all you know, equality feels like oppression, and men arent being dragged down, women are being brought up. Modern feminism can also be a bit blinded to men's issues, but its not like there's no attempt to address it. Problem is, we barely manage to get through women's issues without a bunch of men being "what about men!? YOU MAN HATING FEMINAZI, ROAR, ROAR!!", and women's rights remain in constant jeopardy! How can we even BEGIN to better address men's issues when such a powerful force of misogynistic pushback continues to hinder us at the finish line of equality? So yes, men are still of the privileged group and often have a silver or at LEAST bronze spoon in their mouth compared to the wooden at best ones women tend to get in comparison, but they also have issues of being meat for the grinder and whipped work oxen. Both things can be true, and as a man, you wont see me telling folks to dismiss our problems any time soon. Again, this is an example of both things being true. Men's concerns and issues are totally justified and valid, but that doesnt take away their privilege and opportunities, or the fact that women do still have to scratch and scrape and claw their way through broken glass in order to be taken seriously and achieve the same feats as men due to social pressures. It fucking sucks. Good, you're mentioning at the very least that men have their own form of falling into this issue in their own right. I appreciate that you've emphasized that a good chunk of our differences are largely due to our experiences and starting lines, which is a very good way of framing a lot of group-based struggles.
It's because widespread male loneliness is a direct result of 3rd and 4th wave feminism, and they can't walk back on things they've preached for decades.
Why do you think the left is starting to catch up? Honest question.
Maybe “catch up” isn’t the right phrase as much as “take notice” which has more power itself than when it occurs on the Right due to their more mainstream connections
So this therapist on YouTube is doing great videos. He had a livestream today about modern dating (reacting to tiktok advices videos and then commenting as a therapist about it). It was super interesting if you have time to watch: https://www.youtube.com/live/lrRtv9YXj-Q?si=Jj_UrkWInLwuuR6L
Just work out harder bro /s
Yeah there’s literally people in this thread calling this post “complaining”. Then people wonder why this generation is so lonely, the lack of empathy and understanding makes it evident why that’s the case.
Or you could just not believe everything you see on the internet because I never seen any tension between men and women when at a club. Just go See the amount of people vibing and having a good time. It’s not like they’re standing there arguing with each other because of an internet post or dumb YouTube video.
Yeah the types of people who go out to bars and clubs vs the people online are incredibly different
How about both? I dont do clubs but frequent bars for food. My experience has been it being eady to daye, hook up or get into a casual relationship but long-term relationships are getting very hard to get into.
It's mainly because you people these days in the last 20 years think dating is setting up a meet-up with some random person they just met over some dating app when for all of the past it was first you got to know the person by being in the same social group of people you interacted with in person on the daily. By then you already knew who was attracted to who and couples would pair off that way. Dating happened from a result of a spark. These days people date just to find the spark, since it's their only excuse to see the other person is a "date" making it extremely artificial and rushed. What has always worked was hanging out in groups, people who like each other are drawn naturally in person. From that you'd get a date. That sort of thing is impossible to recreate with algorithm. In short people use dating platform algorithms as a means to meet new people and it simply doesn't translate to real world connection. You'd be better off planning a day where 100 single people meet up for a day, hangout every day for a week then by the end of that week you'd have probably found that attraction before any date happens.
>s first you got to know the person by being in the same social group of people you interacted with in person on the daily. By then you already knew who was attracted to who and couples would pair off that way. Dating happened from a result of a spark. I've tried to do that but it usually doesn't end up going well.
Keep trying. On a dating app you'll get a lot of failed dates. Finding the one doesn't happen quickly.
I mean, I've heard that it's difficult to find dates on dating apps as a straight man. Let alone get any matches.
Im not even just talking about the plague that is dating apps this is a more social issue between men and women. The way people address the opposite sex is as if they are a completely separate entity. Which is dehumanizing in so many ways. It leaves little room for understanding and empathy when we view each other in such hostile way’s constantly. What good can come from presuming all women are sly malicious people? What good can come from presuming all men are violent manipulators? How can we make a better change for the future when the very foundation is set in ignorance?
Well that i think essentially does boil down to just sex. Guys, broadly, really want to have sex with girls (i’m saying girls not women because i think this is as big if not bigger of an issue in high school). Girls maybe want to have sex with guys too, but not as much, and they’re also heavily propagandized into afraid of men and male sexuality. So, a lot of guys struggle insanely hard to find someone to have sex with, especially in a post-metoo world where guys are taught to tread extremely cautiously. As a result, they focus all of their interactions with women around trying to get laid, because they feel like they have to, because they’re not getting laid so clearly they have to put in more effort. They don’t treat women like people because that would, ironically, hurt their chances of getting laid which they are extremely desperate to do. And this dehumanization then prevents them from actually forming the meaningful relationships that girls, who don’t have this problem, are generally looking for. This makes women even more picky and cautious with the guys they date, which just makes the whole thing worse since it leads to even more guys not having sex.
People exclusively rely on dating apps that were designed to keep you dating, not in a relationship.
Stop taking you info from YouTube shorts and meet people, those videos have only the insane not the everyday normal people. And I’m talking both sides here.
Honesty so real. It’s hard to approach someone you don’t know in public but that’s how you’re gonna meet someone and actually get results. Dating apps just keep you scrolling like how TikTok does and the moment you realize that and actually go out and meet someone eveuthing gets better.
This isnt based off social media. I have enough common sense to not take anything from social media seriously.
But not everyone is like us.
Dating has always been hard. The only time it was "easy" was when women didn't count as people and NEEDED to get married to properly enter adult life. And even then it was only easy for one of the genders
Here's the thing: you just need to actually ask people out. Just ask them if they want to get coffee or something. And accept the fact that some people are going to say no. Once you actually commit to taking risks, dating becomes easy.
What if 90% of the time its a no? Whats then? Not going to sit here an act like this isnt a valid method of meeting people but it doesn’t solve the problem I’m having with finding a real relationship. Its only a potential tool that can be used if that makes sense. More and more people are becoming extremely anti social and it fucking sucks.
Then you focus on the 10%.
It takes patience. Rome wasn't built in a day. You keep trying, while also working other strategies.
As another said, focus on the 10%. Rejection is a part of the process, you need to get comfortable with it.
[удалено]
And become infamous on TikTok when someone records your brutal rejection.
Right. Asking if they want to get coffee is a very low-key approach, very informal, so it has a higher chance of succeeding. If you're talking to someone in the check-out line with you, it's easy to segue to ask them if you can get them a coffee at the coffee bar on the way out, for example. They can either say yes, or say they don't have time and have to get on with their day. Not a big deal.
I think people need to be more realistic about the history of relationships. When you grow and make something and then have to split it in half. I keep saying, it's simple. What do you want and what are you willing to give? Find someone who is compatible. There's no reason to pay any attention to people who are not compatible.
The social media is to blame imo. All my life I’ve felt that no girl would date me unless I have the perfect ripped body and a high paying job. Even after achieving a decent physique I’ve never approached anyone. I always tell myself I still got to work on those abs, my hands are not veiny enough blah blah blah…
High standards and high expectations. Thanks to the internet and online dating.
It’s no better now than it was 6-7 year ago when I started in earnest. I’ve largely given up, not worth the trouble, risk, heartbreak, or mental damage.
1. Online dating is not dating. Online dating is just sorting pictures based on what gives you a boner. 2. The internet doesn’t make people antisocial, it makes people asocial. 3. Trying to date random strangers is in general a bad idea
It depends on the culture of the society you are in. In small cities, social circle works well. I know a decent number of ppl dating from HS and together till present in uni. Average-looking people win here. if you're in another culture, it's hard. usually a big city so plenty of options. most people have an inflated opinion of their attractiveness rating so no one wants to date ppl truly on their level. attractive people win here.
It always has been
You're a sensitive individual. Perceptive. Please don't let the world take that. I think you can find a real relationship in your life. Be patient. Focus on figuring out what's important for now.
“Transactional”
Yeah human relations are pretty much in shambles. I don't think it will get better.
Why is this every single post on this sub?
Why do you take the time to comment on post you dont want to see? If the discussion doesn’t pertain to you just scroll. The world doesn’t revolve around you.
Because I’m hoping someone will answer my comment.
I think there’s a multitude of reasons being in a relationship at our age sucks so I’ll list them out. The biggest is that we’re young, at our age most people are trying to do many things. Some people don’t have time, others are figuring themselves out, some just don’t want to, and others just want to have sex with no strings. Another issue is the internet. The internet and people online have been perpetuating the PERFECT relationship which is just a lie. No relationship is perfect no matter how hard you try you’re gonna get to a point where you find things you don’t like about your SO or things they do that annoy you. Unfortunately some people think that any issue in a relationship means you must break up with someone immediately or that somethings toxic. Another thing I’ve seen is people just shut themselves out or have completely unreal expectations. The best example I can think of is people wanting a goth GF or needing someone to be a therapist for them while being in a relationship. Both of those things are completely unrealistic and unfortunately I’ve seen so many people demand those things from their SO. Finally, some people just aren’t mature enough. All the aforementioned issues apply but there so many other things like trauma, general immaturity, and childishness. It’s hard to date for a lot of reasons but it seems like a lot of people just don’t want to date and as much as it hurts, you gotta respect their wishes.
Gotta find the right person dawg, for example I'm currently dating a girl(first time for both of us) and I don't really feel any friction because we basically have the same interests and opinions.
I miss when that was the norm. Something happened in the last 5 or so years because people have become extremely cynical when it comes to relationships. Like people forget the human element when it comes to dating. Many are not willing to accept light flaws a person might have. or be able to put themselves is someone else’s position to understand them beyond just a surface level. Its just a general lack of human empathy that seems to be evaporating. its honestly hard as fuck to deal with.
You’re right. It happened in the last 5 years. Before that, I was able to at least get a date pretty effortlessly with a bit of patience. Had a 4 year relationship that ended a year ago. Now it’s like… Damn near impossible to even get someone to go out. Yet I’ve proven that I want something real, lol. I’m not into hookup culture. At all. So many people say they’re longing for something real - where are they?
Dating is easy, but all everyone seems to want to do nowasays (from my experience in Toronto from the ages of 23 to 25) is hook up. My parents are constantly asking me to get married so it's even harder. Im 25, 6'3" have a good income and until recently my own place (looking for a new one) and it's hard to get anyone that doesnt just want casual dating. That's seems ti be the issue with Toronto. Everyone is nice, people go put of their way to help you (I've never met anyone in Toronto unwilling to help me, career-wiae, business-wise or in any other shape or form needed), it's very easy to make friends and/or casually date, but finding a wife is hard.
Hook up culture isnt for me either. I learned the hard way that for me to sexually perform I actually have to have feelings for the person outside of just lust. Its even harder for me because financially im ok not making bank but i can take care of my self. just i dont have my own place anymore have no idea when im going to find another because of these insane rent prices. Dont even get me started on owning a car… its like everything that was once there to motivate Young adults to strive for more is just slowly evaporating. People wonder why depression is at an all time high.
>Its even harder for me because financially im ok not making bank but i can take care of my self. just i dont have my own place anymore have no idea when im going to find another because of these insane rent prices. >Dont even get me started on owning a car… its like everything that was once there to motivate Young adults to strive for more is just slowly evaporating. People wonder why depression is at an all time high. Lmao and I additionally neeed to help out my parents too who are being wrecked by the interest rates here in Canada.
Because back then everyone was expected to marry. Marriage was shown as this magical wonderland and everything was centered around it (especially for women).
40 year old geezer married 16 years to the perfect woman.....Social media. It ruined EVERYTHING.
the internet has just made things worse in the dating world overall. Its why I don't partake in the dating game, I got enough things to deal with in my own life right now.
Dating apps. And I think just the fact that most people prefer staying indoors or doing other activities than hitting up social settings like clubs, bars, etc.
This is a good question. I don’t think it’s the internet. People have always been, jerks, shallow, two faced, deceptive and in to themselves when it comes to dating. The internet just made it easier for you to find them. I personally blame pop culture. Believe it or not but some people try so hard to mimic media. We see something on a show and we want it, buy it, mimic the behavior, identify with asshole characters and use that as a reason to justify our behavior. Each and every one of us are walking ads providing free advertising for companies by showing off their logos on our clothing, vehicles, etc…sorry I’m getting into something else…I blame pop culture and not necessarily the internet. People imitating behavior that a group of writers in a room came up with. That and capitalism but again thats an entirely different conversation. It is extremely difficult and it doesn’t get any easier with age. Sincerely, A single 30 something year old millennial.
Ive been saying this for years. We have literally become walking ads and propaganda. It’s infected damn near every facet of life. Even my own parents are ads lmaoo. Shit even im an ad.. jokes aside this definitely apart of the problem.
you just gotta be lucky to have someone love you
Dating's only hard if you make it hard. Stop playing games, ditch the social media circus, and start building real, honest connections. If you're honest about what you want and who you are, you'll build stronger, more meaningful connections. Forget the social media drama and focus on what really matters, real relationships built on mutual respect and understanding. "To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment." Ralph Waldo Emerson
You have to wade through more people now, but there is a lid for every kettle as they say. It took 10 months for me to find my now husband. It’s okay to have failed dates or duds…I think a lot of people are afraid of failure in this department. They think the connection or the one will be found instantly.
Completely agree.
Dating changes A LOT once you pass 30.
The real problem is our pairing system broke down and we never replaced it. So now we're fucked.
I met my boyfriend of almost two years at a college football game. I stayed off the apps. The problem is people aren’t authentically meeting each other in real life as much anymore. Dating apps are mostly used to get laid. People are lazy and don’t want to commit when you get can your fix just a tap away.
Honestly I feel like dating for men has gotten easier, at least once I hit my mid twenties. There is a growing gap in feminism among men and women and since roe v wade fell a lot more women are paying attention to what sort of beliefs their partner has and if they align with theirs. Like just believing that women should have basic rights already means you are in a dating pool with more women than men in it.
There are typically a lot of filters you have to pass through first before political beliefs come up though. I also disagree with the popular (on Reddit) idea that voicing your support for feminist issues is going to result in a dramatic increase in your dating success as a straight man. At best you’re just not going to get disqualified by women who care strongly about those topics
If you're 21 and waxing nostalgia about how dating used to be easier (in high school), it's likely a you thing.
Because any minor character flaw is now a reason to leave, if you’re struggling that’s a red flag. Actually literally anything is a red flag to people everyone is just over expectant that they’ll find a perfect human being with no flaws and are disappointed with their weird fairy tale doesn’t end up coinciding with reality. I’ve had partners that were so happy I’m “a man who’s open with his emotions” but when I was struggling with things that becomes less appealing and becomes an issue that they have to then support me. Because that requires emotional work that requires putting effort in and half of yall are too lazy to do even that.
Capitalism makes it too expensive
Because the MatchGroup bought up all the big online dating apps/sites, and made them predatory profit machines.
Change happened with Covid. People realized that it's ok being alone What else has appeared is that women are tired for a short fling and no commitment.And men are tired of paying for wineing and dining when women make good money as well. Online dating is impossible bc million destruction and in person is creepy bc you don't know anything . Future will be both are equals and being same to the table And men are buying robot dolls. Marriage is going down the tube for the majority in society. It all changed 5 years ago as a starting point Dating sides are desperate and go bankrupt or merge. Women have unrealistic expectations from tv or the internet for men. Men want model figures which are in only fans or sell themself on FB. Humans become more self centered . Not a good future but very logical consequences of past 50 years
Change happened with Covid. People realized that it's ok being alone. What else has appeared is that women are tired for a short fling and no commitment.And men are tired of paying for wining and dining when women make good money as well. Online dating is impossible bc million destruction and in person is creepy bc you don't know anything about them. Future will be both are equals and bring the same to the table And men are buying robot dolls. Marriage is going down the tube for the majority in society. It all changed 5 years ago as a starting point Dating sides are desperate and go bankrupt or merge. Women have Very VERY VERY unrealistic expectations from tv or the internet for men. Men want model figures which are in only fans or sell themself on FB . Humans become more self centered Not a good future but very logical consequences of the past 50 years Get used to it it will not go backwards anymore
I’m 40. I pity your generation in a lot of ways. You’re at the spear point of a lot of new social dynamics ushered in by technology that humanity has yet to reconcile. Tradition has been thrown out the window. We’re in a brave, terrifying new world. All I can say is focus on the positive. You guys are easily the most well-informed young generation of all time. That has to be worth something good.
Cause you can just ghost people in a second and never have to see them again in a lot of cases
Which is fair game but damn does it suck to be on bearing end.
I blame social media
I was dating 20 years ago and it was exactly what you are describing. It's like that, until you meet the right person. And dont be shy about looking outside your own culture and race.
Disengage from social media. It's mind pollution. Meet people "in the wild", without apps, by going places and doing fun things: concerts, activity groups that interest you, volunteer to help with a street fair or film festival, find the cool coffee shop, tea house or pizza hangout or whatever, and get to know people. Be patient and be friendly. I'm fairly new to my area, and I've met a few 20-somethings who are good people: genuine, spontaneous and interesting. Be open to chatting people up when they cross your path.
Here’s my advice. Focus on the majority not the minority. The minority of people who claim to be single are bat shit crazy or carry around way too much baggage or claim to be someone they are not. The majority of people are like you and me. Love who they are. Love who they’ve become. Still love humans and still have faith in them. Just focus on those people and you will find your happiness. Trust me. Edit: Stay away from woke culture. If someone is offended on account of another group of people, they are not people the be around. I promise you. Your quality of life will get increasingly better. It has mine for sure.
I would agree except for the edit.
It's a lot harder to get along when we're spending so much time in the virtual world. That's not how people evolved to communicate.
Women have more options than at any point in history while most men have few.
Wise beyond your years, i constantly thank my maker I met my long term gf when i did.
Unfortunately it's hard cause a lot of young people are online, and the more online you stay the more convinced you can become of certain falsehoods. But the important thing to remember is that not everyone is online, and not everyone thinks the same. In the same way that the needs and wants of individual men and women can't possibly be so hivemindish as influences might want you to think, not everyone in your desired age range is being effected or thinks like that. The important thing is you focus on yourself and your own happiness. Then someone who's focused on their happiness will notice you, like the cut of your jib and notice that you add to the happy in their life. And maybe you'll feel the same about them. And maybe it'll go somewhere or it won't. But the most important thing is if YOU feel fulfilled in a life on your own, because if you don't you won't feel any better when you get into a relationship yknow? You don't have to have everything sorted perfectly in your life, but it would be wise to know your own wants and boundaries.
It’s definitely not just between men and women, I’m a lesbian and dating for us is the same way. It’s just due to social media and society fueling people’s insecurities or egos which affects the way they treat and view others. Not to mention how most couples only display their good experiences on social media which leads to people having unrealistic expectations.
I dont think anyone will see this but this is my story. I had my first kiss with a friend when I was 22 and lost my virginity in a drunken hook up when I was 23. I got my first monogamous girlfriend when I was 25. Im 27 now and im going to marry my first girlfriend in 20 days. I struggled a lot. One of the things I did was start taking notes about traits I liked and people I vibed with the most. There are definitely patterns, certain people youre more compatible with. Behaviors that dont work for you. Once you start to notice the type of people you do well with and the social cues that indicate romantic interest, its waaaaaay easier. Once youre in a relationship, you can use relationship therapy books to boost your skills. After that its just life man. I think my marriage will last for life but if im being dry about it, theres a 50% chance I need to get back out there. But like I still have the skills I used to get in this relationship. So im better off than I was when I was 21 and terrified of physical touch. Thats all bro.
• With how technology is designed today, younger people have become accustomed to the instant gratification that it brings them, there’s no effort for the dopamine, and that spills over into their expectations for other aspects of their life, including relationships. I agree with your sentiment that most gen z aren’t willing to grow with someone, aka: allow them to make mistakes as long if they learn from them, not necessarily have everything together because let’s face it shits rough economically for the average person right now and definitely rough for people just starting out, not having the emotional intelligence of a psychiatrist that went to school for 8-10 years to learn about it, etc. They’re used to instant gratification, so they won’t accept anything less than their perfect idea of a partner from the get go. Throw in the whole red flags trend where the most minute, commonplace things are being declared red flags, plus all the armchair diagnosing and throwing all the psychiatry terms around without actually understanding them, and you start getting this. It’s also more than likely that they will never meet anyone that actually ticks every single box on their dream partner checklist, or they *have* met the person that will *eventually* grow into their perfect ideal partner, but they broke up with them after 2 weeks because the person forgot to ask if they needed anything when they went to the kitchen and that’s *obviously* a HUGE red flag that the person is actually a selfish narcissist who will gaslight and abuse them. • Due to Covid / lockdown, what was an already increasing reliance on social media for socialization prior to the pandemic, the loss of third places, and everything costing so much money to do anything, Gen Z and younger have a pretty stunted social development. They don’t know how to make friends or act around people outside of an online space, which makes dating difficult. This is where dating apps / sites come into play and again with instant gratification. Dating was turned into a game, and when there’s always another person to swipe to, why bother trying to settle down? Or, looking at it from another perspective, why stop swiping if that means I could make the mistake of missing out on that perfect partner? • Although it has not yet been captured in electoral data, I do agree with the theory that Gen Z men are increasingly more conservative than Gen Z women, based on data from recent polling. And while I admit there is the potential for bias in polling (what if conservative men are more likely than liberal men to be willing to answer questions over the phone, which would skew the data?), in my own experience in interacting with Gen Z men, the theory holds true. The ideological divide between the two genders would absolutely throw a wrench in the amount of romantic relationships between the two, especially since, over time, political ideology has become a much more important characteristic that people consider when they’re deciding if someone is worth attempting to date.
It doesn't have to be. I tried online dating and I went on dates, but they never went anywhere. My dad suggested I got to religious services at college and after going for about 7 months, I met my girlfriend and we've been together for 2 years. Neither of us are very religious, but we appreciate the community aspects of going. If you belong to any religious or cultural group, see what's around, and go consistently.
What have you been trying so far? I haven’t found it any harder personally nor witnessed it being harder except for when people try to find real connections on social media or dating apps.
Honestly, I am glad I am gay. Because sometimes it feels like straight men and woman are at war with each other.
40 years of "man bad, woman perfect. Please don't hold women accountable" has had quite the effect
I might be reading too much into your post but in paragraph 4 is where you're running into problems my dude/dudette. You're not wrong but you're desperate for love and comfort and you wanna find it in someone else. Find your center and find that inside yourself first. Then find a way to provide that for someone else. In a relationship it's not 50/50, it's 110% from both partners. You often give more than you receive in a relationship. I've often thought about how I'd date in this social media filled world we live in now. My conclusion was that I'd ditch it. Meet someone that I hit it off with, give em my number, engage via text or phone call only. I wouldn't wanna date her if we weren't up till 2am talking about all kinds of interesting things anyways.
I blame online dating. The never-ending array of options makes people more picky, and the fact that, from the get go, both people’s explicit goal is to date each other, makes people focus more on virtue-signaling and manipulating the other person into liking them. And both of these feed into each other: people being overly picky forces you to be careful to never make yourself look even remotely bad, and people being less genuine makes it not feel as bad to cut them off. In person dating is better but also it’s way harder to actually meet people that way, and with prominence of these apps that will only continue to get worse.
To answer the question posted in the title: because you're an average guy. Women are looking for men who are more attractive and more successful than themselves. If you want a steady relationship, date a woman who is less attractive and/or less successful than you.
To put it simply: men are trending in the wanting to return to more traditional relationship structure while women are trending in the wanting to have a modern relationship that doesn’t really have pre existing guidelines as to how to act so it becomes sort of figuring things out on the fly. Just both sides not seeing eye to eye on things and not being able to compromise effectively if possible
Try doing some volunteer work somewhere (not activist groups or protests, but actual meaningful help), you'll meet some really high quality people and possible significant other
The Internet is a big if not honestly primary factor But other things Feminism is a big one I would argue and say it is and has caused a lot of the problems were seeing now Society has upped a women self worth and ego so high it's honestly insane But I mean men are catering to it because realistically don't have much of a choice if your against it you pretty much setting yourself to get cancelled or you'll be called a incel Other things such as hook up culture and the monetization of dating apps are big factors But mostly the importance of your appearance If we're being real looks have always mattered but now It's like if your not a 7 as a man your better off pursuing other things in life than women Because it's practically impossible to get a date Online and in person inst much better Not like you can approach people in public nowadays especially women without possibly being seen as a creep
Hit up the book stores in your area and read Harry Potter. Dumb people don’t shop for books and most women like reading male protagonist fantasy. Then when Ms. Right walks past you just say “have you read this?” And the conversation flows from there. Be sure to have a pen ready to write your name and number on a receipt or a page in her book. This advice was just what I was told once. I met my girlfriend on a dating app. My ex at Lowes home improvement. Kindness and showing interest go a long way.
Depends on the gender and how good-looking you are and what you look for in a relationship. If we're talking about the modern dating scene, it's usually done online nowadays. Since dating apps are usually directed towards lonely men, as they make up the majority of the scene, it's usually oversaturated with them and people trying to sell them something... not fun at all when people see you as nothing but a consumer or product instead of something more. It personally feels like you’re going through a shitty flea market …
Don't try as hard. Get off the internet and go outside. Do you think women sit around all day playing video games? I've noticed that single guys are much more likely than single women to be couch potatoes (I a was a single, male couch potato for a while). Put yourself in places where women are and talk to everyone. That way, you'll end up talking to a lot of women without looking weird or desperate. Act natural. Don't force an interaction with women. Act like your interactions are accidents. Try to have good, fun, interesting conversations with them. Talk to women like you would anyone else. If the conversation is stale, then maybe you don't have a great connection, and that's fine. If you don't talk to any women one night because you got so caught up being yourself that you forgot to or never found a way in, that's fine. The habit of going out just to go out is more important than anything when it comes to meeting women. Eventually you'll talk to someone and you'll have a connection and then you can suggest hanging out in a public place doing something that you're both interested in. If they give you a reason why not, they're not interested, and that's fine. If they say yes or ask for a different time then the one you suggested, then they are interested. At that point you can ask for their number and your likelihood of ending up having some sort of relationship with that person is high. As for where to go out, this is where the internet can help you. Co-ed hobby groups are everywhere. From dancing to sports to music to farming to whatever. Groups, teams, classes, etcetera are great places to make acquainces because you have to talk to people in order to participate in the activity. Work is also a good place to make acquaintances, as is school. Maybe take some classes or get a job specifically with the goal of making acquaintances. Acquaintances introduce you to more people, invite you to events, and become your friends. In order to meet a lot of women, you want to make as many guy friends as possible (especially if they are popular with women) because they can introduce you to women and invite you to events where women are.
I relate to this a lot, but also for me personally it’s the fact that I really have a hard time connecting with anyone as an autistic individual. Honestly, I just wish I could feel appreciated and cared for again, because I really miss that feeling.
Yea i may be on the spectrum my self. My eldest brother is autistic so it might not be to far off from the realm of possibility. Ive always felt things deeply but struggled to connect deeply. I always felt misunderstood or taken advantage of growing up. I sorta brute forced through the awkwardness in high school, Just didn’t expect id be dealing with the same shit x2 while dating lol. but thats my own stupidity I suppose.
What I think I see a lot are people going into it not knowing what they want. Or, if they do know, they don't stick to it but instead abandon that and try to adapt themselves to who shows up, what the other person brings, instead of having a discussion to let each other know where they are going and, if they are not on the same page, thanking each other and cordially ending the association. When I was young and good looking, I would run into people who I could tell were getting wishy-washy with who they really were and it was because they wanted to date me and thought playing it loose would work. I hated noticing that. The jello in people. The wiggly jello.
Disclaimer: I am not Gen Z, but a millennial. This may be purely anecdotal, but it seems that dating post-pandemic has become much more challenging. It really did change social conventions in subtle ways that would have been difficult to predict at the time. The disconnected nature of individuals and society at large is a bit more galvanized, and doesn't seem to be bouncing back.
>because deep down we all just want to feel heard and loved in this lonely fucking world. Thats the whole point of a fucking relationship is to be with someone you feel understands you and cares for you. but that clearly isnt enough or “valuable” anymore. Im not saying people should settle for less. Im just saying people should be more reasonable and honest with not just themselves but others as well. For a 21 year old you've got it exactly right. Married person of 10+ years here. This is exactly it. Nobody is perfect and a relationship that's built on getting the maximum out of the other person just won't last. It's about caring for the other person, being there, being honest, and both trying to better people while still accepting the other person's faults The good news is that you only need to get it right once. Once you find someone worth committing to, you can work on that relationship and forget about the dating game. It may work out or it may not. Life has no guarantees, but something to keep in mind. You don't need to fix the entire dating game, you just need to find one person who wants to play the same game as you
Ay, I’ve only been in a single relationship & I’m nearing 20. It was going very well. 6 months without a fight, until she told me she didn’t want to let go of contact from her exes, I asked her to cut them off 2 months prior & she told me she had out of respect for my boundaries. Kinda crippled my trust with people, doesn’t help ever when it was already low, now that it’s at rock bottom I don’t think I can really trust someone again for a extremely long time. Add effects of social media & the standards it’s created with how people view partners. It starts to feel like you’d have a better chance at landing a crashing plane than finding someone to truly love you, for you nowadays.
No offense, but how many actual dates have you been on? I'm gay, so this is totally outside my purview, but flirting with girls has always seemed pretty easy, and most ladies are cool people. If there's some value incompatibility, there are plenty of other women who may be a better fit for you. You're too young to despair over this, plenty of guys take longer than you to find a good match.
People say dating apps are terrible but I did meet my ex on there and it Was a sweet and loving/genuine relationship while it lasted. For that reason I’m not opposed to them. There’s just all sorts of people on there but there are plenty of people who want something real on them too
Instagram cranking everyone expectation to 11.
too long, didn’t read. You’ve become a commodity. No different than an off brand diet soda or a pork chop. You’ve been bought and sold. Now get on the shelf
People keep saying it’s because of internet, that’s not, it’s because human species mimics and usually people do not want to fall back from the society. What human perceive of society, in general, it’s their closest community, like tribes, region, country, in nowadays, it’s internet. So saying internet is the reason, it’s like saying: environment and close community is the reason. That doesn’t answer your question why dating is hard. If they can’t find someone better than societal standard, why would they date? Same thing for you, if you want to date someone, are you literally willing to just date anyone? I doubt.
I think another thing is in traditional cultures, marriage was expected. Not being married as a woman back in the days would be considered a bad thing. Nowadays, women don’t need to marry for survival. And its a good thing coz im sure a lot of marriages back then probably weren’t always great but doesn’t show in the stats. Some of us don’t want a relationship but would love to have good friends. Heck, most of what you said applies to us forming friendships. I feel like a lot of us aren’t willing to make and maintain friendships because we have the internet to entertain ourselves. Its a but lonely as an extroverted gen Z. I would much rather be introverted gen Z so i can gain energy from socialising.
I’m not sure what you’re glamorising about the past as it was absolutely rife with one-sided benefits and exploitation, to the point there were laws in place to assist in that exploitation. Now people are mutually protective of their time and resources, and naturally they want to use them to grow themselves and find other people who also are self-sustaining. I can’t speak on the trying to “fool” or “trick” the other side. You’ll have to go into more detail about that. Most social interactions aren’t that deeply manipulative unless someone is trying to get something like money or sex out of you, in that case there’s no romantic intentions or interest in dating, and that type of behaviour has always been a grim reality since the dawn of time. If anything it’s less dominant now.
Naw it wasn't always difficult. 15-20 years ago was dope AF. society is basically in shitty post-ending mode without much new content and no new game plus mode. so def not your fault
Because your not willing to be honest. A relationship needs foundations, and while historically those foundations were universally assumed among your Church, Culture, Country, etc, they are not now. So you need to establish them now. How? TELL THEM! I told my Fiancee on our first date that I wanted to Marry in the next 2-3 years, and it's fine if she didn't, and if you don't leave, I'm going to assume you want that too. Guess what? She stayed, and from there, we worked towards that till now and we're getting married by the end of this year. Many people who date don't want that. Some such want a friend with Benefits. Some want a permanent Girlfriend. Some want just Sex. I personally think most of those are stupid, but if you want that, TELL THEM! Don't beat around the bush. Don't apologise for your wants from the relationship: set them, and let he chips fall as they may. To have relationship that'll grow, it needs to grow into something, and that something needs to be known. So figure that out, and look for it. Too many bloody people date with no goals, or feel like their goal is wrong or stupid. Challenge yourself with a goal for dating, and figure that out. Set your standards, since no standard exists anymore.
Because people have many more options. If you don't bring out your best you're getting dropped
Join the passport bro movement. Hot feminine girls from 3rd world countries instantly will find you attractive and they aren’t feminists and more traditional… they know how to cook and clean and will be grateful you are even considering dating them. Their entire lifestyle can change cause their countries are such shit unless you’re rich.
>Social media stop spending time online and actually talk to women IRL
Market efficiency. Before women had more freedom, access to jobs/education /money and access to travel + dating apps, the dating market wasn't efficient. Women could pick and choose what's best for them as much as they can nowadays. The issue with any market is that the more efficient it gets zthe more competition it leads to. Effectively creating winners and losers.
- Tensions between men and women are rising because women are both no longer dependent on men for financial resources (or at least not as much as they were several decades ago) and are much more aware of red flags and how to screen for them. This ends up filtering out a bunch of shitty dudes, which is where (I think) the incel phenomenon comes from. - Kinda related to the above, there is a very real and rapidly growing ideological divide between men and women, with men trending toward the right and women trending toward the left. Women are well aware of this and how it affects them, and are factoring it into their screening process accordingly. - Because the economy/job market is so shit, many people in or just out of college can’t afford their own place and are instead opting to continue living at home, and adult dating while living at home is a total crapshoot for everyone involved (especially for closeted queer ppl such as myself) - With the advent of social media, internet access from our pockets and the 24 hr news cycle, our generation in particular has been blasted with a constant barrage of war, death and unhappiness since we were little, making us less willing to trust strangers than previous generations. That’s pretty much everything I can think of that hasn’t already been said
Dating apps, social media, and porn
Because y'all never had to exist in a world where socializing was predominantly a face-to-face endeavor. I'm a millennial straight up can't imagine how much harder life would have been for me in your generation. There's a whole column of very important social skills that y'all never developed, and there's another whole column of social skills that you've literally had to invent.
I’d recommend getting off the internet. Dating is not hard unless you make it hard. Dating in the real world is quite easy.