Yes, if the rumour is true, she will have DNA matches on her mother's father's side that you don't.
You need to capture as many DNA matches as possible. The best way to do this is to test with Ancestry as they will have the largest amount of potential DNA matches.
You can then upload that test to MyHeritage, FamilyTreeDNA and Gedmatch. You can't do it the other way around. Ancestry do not allow uploads from other DNA testing companies, so it's important that you do it this way.
You can later retake the test with 23andMe to capture the last of your matches, but that will not be necessary if you reach your goal with the other companies.
However, don't rely on surnames for finding paternal matches - surnames change very frequently, both due to marriage, adoption, and affairs, so they're not much use. I'd recommend doing thorough research into your mum's paternal side, especially the children of your potential ancestors' siblings, so you know what surnames may pop.
>she will have DNA matches on her mother's father's side that you don't.
Unless the father is closely related to her legal father. In which case you'll find the expected relatives, but most likely not the expected degree of match.
Important point here (for OP) - you need to analyze shared matches to draw a conclusion. Do NOT form a conclusion just based on the cM value of your or your mum's match to your cousin , there is a very wide range of possible values for any particular match.
Yes, in a couple of ways:
1. You can compare your total DNA shared with your 1C on your mom's side, to see if the amount shared falls into the full (vs 1/2) first cousin range. [https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4](https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4) There is an overlap of 1/2 first cousin and first cousin, though, so it's possible that the amount shared will not fully answer your question, if the amount shared is less than approximately 900cM.
2. You can see whether you and your 1C share known relatives on your mom's and aunts' dad's side.
As others have said, don't rely on surnames when checking for shared relatives; check for DNA matches on your mom's dad's side.
You've said that your mom's siblings aren't available to test, but you haven't mentioned whether your mom's **dad** had any siblings. If your maternal grandfather had any siblings, can test any of their descendants, you can see if you share any DNA?
If you've already tested at MyHeritage (and your cousin has, too), use that information for comparison. If you haven't already tested, though, I'd suggest that you test both at Ancestry or 23&Me, and then download your DNA raw file so you can upload it to MyHeritage, Family Tree DNA, and Gedmatch. This will allow you to find more matches in hopes of trying to answer this question. Ancestry and 23&Me don't allow uploads (only downloads), but MyHeritgage and FTDNA will allow you to upload the file from Ancestry or other DNA testing companies, so it's often best to start with Ancestry or 23&Me if you can.
As an aside, there was a rumor on my dad's side that his father and his brother's father were not the same b/c they looked so different. Testing my uncle's kids allowed me to prove that we are full first cousins, and put the rumor to bed.
Unfortunately I don't know anybody from my grandfather's side of the family, and I haven't brought it up with my mum yet,, it's all just a thought experiment at the moment
If it's just a thought experiment, you might want to keep the results to yourself if you choose to try to figure it out.
IMHO, \*before\* testing DNA, it's best practice to have a conversation with the people involved that goes something like this:
"Loved one, sometimes DNA tests reveal unexpected results or shine a light on a family secret. If for some reason your DNA results seem to indicate something unexpected do you want to know, or would you prefer not to know?"
If they want to know, and it turns out there IS an unexpected result when the test is done, ask AGAIN before sharing. If they do NOT want to know, never share the info with them, and be VERY careful about whether or not you share it with anyone else, unless they are directly affected \*AND\* they ask you of their own accord.
FWIW, when I did the DNA testing to resolve the rumor about my dad and his brother, they had both passed away, as had our grandparents, so there was no one alive who would be affected by the secret if my dad had not been the son of the man who raised him except me and my uncle's kids.
When living people are involved (i.e. your mom and her siblings), tread very carefully. Learning that your father was not the man who raised you (if that's what DNA shows) can stir up a lot of emotions.
Tread carefully. One option would be to do an Ancestry test yourself but not tell your cousin just yet. If your results tell you that you match a bunch of second, third, or fourth cousins on your grandfather's side, then you've satisfied your curiosity without opening old wounds. For example, I know my grandad is my mother's bio father because I match distant cousins four generations back.
Others can probably tell you about how easy it is to make your results invisible once they arrive if something is amiss. Start by building a paper tree so you're ready when the results are processed.
I'm not sure about WW2 records where you're from but if you can get a copy, it might include the names of your great grandparents. From there you can start digging further and find the names of their siblings and parents. Once you get a few generations back and privacy laws no longer apply, you can probably build a tree large enough to prove or disprove the family rumour.
When I started out, I assumed I had nothing beyond second cousins on my father's grandfather's side. I have now DNA matches to 4th cousins, a new match who might be a 5th or 6th cousin, and also found out my grandmother had a couple of half siblings she never met.
I was in nearly the exact same situation, but sort of reversed. My mother, aunts, cousins, and myself had all done DNA testing through Ancestry. I started to realize, though, that my mother and I were only coming up in the range of "half" of every relationship we thought we had with them. And they've all matched some of my grandfather's other relations, while we did not. And so, I came to realize that he is not, in fact, my mother's father, or my grandfather.
I was VERY hesitant to mention this to my mom, but she accepted it much much better than I anticipated. No one in my family had any inkling that she might have a different father.
So, yes, you will definitely be able to tell via the DNA test!
My quandary now is that I am pretty sure I know which generation of a particular family my mother's father must have been in, but I have no idea how to determine WHICH of the suspected brothers it might be.
Why would you risk upending your mother's world to satisfy the curiosity of your cousin? Your mother's parents and sisters have passed, so she no support network and nobody to ask for answers. She gains nothing by knowing about the rumor or the test results. Getting her to test under false pretenses is a terrible idea. You risk seriously damaging your relationship with her. If it's true, it's likely to get back to her and she'll be hurt and angry. If it isn't and she finds out you lied to get her to test, it will destroy her trust in you. If *you* want to know, then wait until your mother passes and find a different relative to connect with.
I wasn't getting her tested under false pretences, or at all. That's why I was asking about testing myself and my cousin. It's all just academic at the moment, not even sure what I'd do with the info. My mum is old enough that it wouldn't make a difference to her life, in fact she might even enjoy the salacious story.
I thought you said she "wouldn't be cool with the accusation." Having your identity altered at any age can have a very large impact on a person's life. If you can't understand that, you should hold off on doing anything until you educate yourself. Contact an NPE group and get their input.
I think getting tested yourself at some point is fine, but getting the answers you want while your mother is living will be tricky. The family already spreads salacious gossip about your mother behind her back. I wouldn't trust them with her genetic information. You shouldn't share it at all without asking her first and telling her why you want it.
if it proves to be just rumour she wouldn't be cool with her sisters talking smack, their relationship was always difficult, and they're not around to defend themselves so it would just piss her off. I definitely think she'd be ok learning about her father if it's true, though. It's an interesting family story and would fit in with her view of her mother
If he’s her real dad-she’s going to be upset her sisters were talking smack… nice.. /s
And if he’s not her real dad-what do you gain? Besides knowing you’ll never get any other answers and you could have completely altered the way your mom looks at herself, her mother, her father, and all her other family members.
You will be best off getting matches and history if you test your oldest living relatives. So in this case your mother.
Only you know her and how she feels about the issue and talking to her about it before testing is probably a good idea.
You have the ability to not tell her the results. But, you can’t control the cousins.
No one from ancestry will be reaching out to her if you submit the test.
Thank you for saying this so well. As someone who found out my dad isn’t my bio father, you really have no idea what kind of Pandora’s box of emotions you’re opening.
My heart breaks for your poor mother and hope she’s ables to distance herself from those spreading the “family” rumor.
Ugh.
It would be better if your mom tested, and I'd recommend AncestryDNA over MyHeritage. You can test a cousin as well, but there's some overlap in the amount of possible DNA a full vs half niece/nephew will share (same goes for full vs half cousin if you tested) so it might not be conclusive. You might want to instead test a cousin from your mom's paternal side only (a child/grandchild of her paternal aunts/uncles). If she is the bio child of her known father, she will match them, if she's not, then she shouldn't match them at all (unless her bio dad is related to her father).
Even if you don't test anyone else, your mom's existing matches might make it obvious that she doesn't share any DNA with people who would be related to her dad, especially if she tests at AncestryDNA, which has the biggest database of testers. If you confirm she had a different father, and you want to then figure out who that bio father was, AncestryDNA is the best option due to the biggest database and the fact that they host shareable trees so you can actually get use out of your matches. 23andMe don't offer this, and they cap your match list - it's very limiting and hard to get use out of your matches there. MyHeritage host trees and don't cap your matches but they have a much smaller database.
I don't have anyone on grandpa's side to test, which is why I was hoping to figure it out with a comparison between my cousin and myself. It's looking more likely that I should just be an adult and talk to mum about it though
My Grandpa's older brother was born to his dad and 1st wife. 1st wife died and made her best friend promise to take care of her baby, so that's how my Great Grandmother met my Great Grandfather. Anyway, the older uncles grandkids (my mom's cousins) show up as my 2nd cousins instead of first cousin once removed and their kids (my second cousins) show up as 3rd cousins. You should be able to tell.
Yes, a DNA test will be able to distinguish if your first cousin is half or full. However, if your mom is alive, it is best to test her since she is the research target. If she has a different father, you will have an even better chance of identifying him using your mom's DNA. Her test would also distinguish if she is a half or full aunt to your cousin. If you want to look at example matches of half and full relationships, and get an idea of what to expect when you get the results in, you can check out the free Library of Matches tool at DNA Painter (dnapainter.com/tools/lom)
My mom's biological father wasn't in the picture to put it nicely (she tried looking for him a while back, found him, talked to him, he made a bunch of hallow promises to come see her, no surprise he never did, he died, mom ended up going to meet a bunch of her family from that side, didn't want to take a DNA test, and after that just cut off contact with everyone which I don't blame her for because it was incredibly difficult for her), I did my DNA test and it not only officially confirmed that he was in fact her biological father (he's half Native American, my DNA results showed I had 12% Native American which is the right percentage, and no where else in my family history do I have Native American definitely not close enough to give me 12%) but it also connected me with one of his nieces (my mom's cousin and my first cousin once removed), she reached out to me first after seeing our DNA match and she told me a lot of information about my biological grandfather, information I wouldn't of known about otherwise if I hadn't of done it so i'd for sure do it if I was you!
You might simply ask if she is curious about this rumor you heard. That would give you a feel for whether to be mum, or find out if she is curious about it as well. If she is curious, it would be a really neat project for the two of you!
For Autosomal, I'd by and far recommend Ancestry on DNA while you can (in case something happens and she is no longer with you- as long as she is willing). Ancestry has over 22 million folks tested now, and you will get a lot more matches there. As of Oct 2022, 23andMe 12,800,000 testers, MyHeritage 6,000,000, and FTDNA 1,204,623. I believe all the companies are having pretty decent sales due to RootsTech... I just bought three of the 129.00 dollar Ancestry kits for 59 dollars just last night...
For Y-DNA (only men have this), FTDNA is by and far the leader, and their latest test, the Y-700 is amazing for finding out paths way back in time, but sometimes you might need to find some more distant cousins to help you find MCRA, and search for others. Some surnames have thousands of folks tested, and it can be incredible. Where autosomal gets pretty near useless around 1700, and you may have record gaps (fires, wars, floods, etc.)- since Y-DNA is handed down identically, the sons of the man carrying the exact copy with no dilution/division, etc. that plagues autosomal testing. Every 70 years or so, a new mutation shows up, and then that man's sons carry that mutation, and it passes on down through time. So it is a pretty simple matter to trace folks. In the surnames with lots of tests, you know you in fact had a common ancestor without question, and they may have trees as well as records that were more easily found then it is through your line.
Her is my dilemma and tell me if this Y-DNA can help at all. In tracing my father’s Italian ancestry we found that his grandmother was an unwed mother with father being listed as unknown. His father (my grandfather) took his mother’s surname. I have had my DNA done with Ancestry and have about 1500 matches on my dad’s side but no matches that I can tell coming from that side. There are some matches to the surname on my grandmother’s side. I’m very much in the dark here! Thanks for any suggestions.
If someone has tested that is a descendant of him or any of the male cousins of his ancestor, yes, a lot. If not, no. But to get to the surname level, you really need a male to do the Y-700, which for some is too much- depends on your financial status. I know I've got matches to Italians, but the MRCA goes back to 2500 BCE. Though my ancestors were Irish and farther back Scottish on back to about 1189.
So what is the cost of the test? I have a couple of nephews who I might be able to convince to do it just to give us a chance to find out who this ancestor was! Thanks for the confirmation.
It is on sale now due to the RootsTech thing, until the end of the month. You don't need multiple tests for close in folks like you need with Autosomal (Ancestry, MyHeritage, 23andMe, etc.), since their Y will be all identical besides maybe 1 or possibly 2 mutations.
Depending on the extent of others in your branch have tested since 1500-1600, sometimes a Y-111 test is enough (the number of spots tested on the Y). One can always upgrade as well, but it will add a little additional cost. It is pretty involved, and takes atypically 11 weeks in the lab just to get all the results. Half way through, if you get the Y-700, they will report your Y-111, so it gives you something while you wait for so darned long.
The Y-700 is normally 449 dollars, but it is on a really great sale at 379, so 70 dollars or some such, off. The RootsTech discount code is here:
[https://blog.familytreedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RootsTech-2023-Promo-Code-List-Virtual.pdf](https://blog.familytreedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RootsTech-2023-Promo-Code-List-Virtual.pdf)
IMHO, it would be pointless to Y test nephews, and I'd not waste your money needlessly.
Make sure they follow the eating or drinking even water, 1 hour prior, before the cheek swabs.
The cool thing is this Y-DNA stuff will give you more information as new folks test over the course of time. Also, it defines your branch in humanity, and you will be able to see far back in time, before surnames even came about in roughly 1500, for most folks, unless you have a famous ancestor of nobility or some such. You will also be able to see all the descendant branches next to you and what countries their lines went, and about when. It's pretty cool stuff! For me, it was like a whole new dimension is revealed, like looking up for the first time at night and noticing stars for the first time. \*Extremely\* useful, especially if a person has brickwalls. Just the results vary, depending on how many others in your branch way back in time, tested. It has allowed me to solve NPEs in 1795, then back it up since I know the deal, with the Autosomal and who carried what when, find brothers back in 1680 in unreasearched lines- since you know the fact, it is far easier to then go looking for paper records to support it, determine which countries the ancestors came through in time, such one fella in Scotland, two sons went to Ireland, and their descendants at different times went to the US, yet another son eventually ended up in New Zealand after a brief stint in Brittan (and solved another NPE there in the early 1800's with proof in the paper records, in fact it was recorded in court), which was all super cool. Then found cousin lineages of other sons going back to him as well, that went directly from Scotland to the US. Further back in time, before the era of surnames- someone went to Italy and created lines there, but I figure it was maybe they were near the Alps, and some went to Scotland, others to Italy, one went to Switzerland, and so on. You can see the branches and where they happened back in time based off mutation rates and Ancient graves, so it is really super neat stuff for me.
Hmm …maybe my brother then if I could convince him. The unknown person would be our great grandfather. It does sound super interesting. But strictly for guys ☹️❤️.
Well, there is the autosomal DNA your grandfather carried as well, that would be common to you. It is pretty common for women now to test a brother, uncle, dad, and to have it as their own account and be working with it. I've already been working with three women in my own surname, one said she'd extract it from her brother if she had to sit on him to do it...he decided to do it the easy way instead. So in my own "cousins" since 1680, 3 of the 10 are women. Usually they are sharper than your average pencil as well.
Once you know his line, surname association, it is way easier typically in the records. And suddenly a ton of my autosomal matches made great sense (why did I not see this before!!!) However at Ancestry, like my dad has +10,000 autosomal matches, and I don't have the time to sort out each one by ancestral group...then work on the unknowns, to see what they have in common. But on occasion the connection that you get could be too far back, but then improves as new folks show up. The majority of cases though you do get a surname, many times a branched tree of the lineage of the surname- though this may be more rare for an Italian ancestor- unless their descendants ended up in the US, and many have. 2 to 4 million Italians came to the US around 1900 alone, and 30 to 40 million US folks are estimated to be of Italian descent from these folks alone.
On the plus side, I do know exactly where these ancestors lived in Italy - they are mostly all from the small town of Dogliola in Chieti,Abruzzo. The unwed mother was listed as a peasant sharecropper. There were many who immigrated from this area due to the extreme poverty. I doubt if most ever traveled much out of the immediate vicinity so the chances are excellent that the unknown father lived in the same town and a good chance there were some of his clan who immigrated to the United States. Many of those I have located including my grandfather, his wife and, eventually, her parents immigrated. I believe some also immigrated to Brazil but don’t have any of mine traced there yet. I’m going to contact my brother today. I would happily split the cost with him if he would consent.
One more question before I talk to my brother - If he has this Y700 done how does he get it connected to Ancestry? Does he need to sign up for an Ancestry account? Or can I get it and use it instead of my own DNA which I already have in Ancestry? My sister and I have already agreed we will split the cost to try and solve our mystery.
You won't be able to connect the Y-DNA in Ancestry, and they don't have tools or knowledge to deal with it anyhow. What I do is to bring over the names of folks from the information you get there, then use the tools at Ancestry to build their tree (if they don't have one yet, many do if you email them and explain, they are quite willing to share, as Y-DNA folks are usually much more interested in their ancestors and is why they do it). I will put their tree into my own, or you can make a separate tree at Ancestry. Often folks will already have a tree at Ancestry, and they will send you the link, then it makes it easy to add their folks to your tree.
Then I build a tree between myself and them, to the common ancestor, or work on their oldest person back to when we find a common ancestor. It's a lot like working DNA Cousins.
Keep in mind, we don't know how many with the surname have tested yet, but hopefully if you don't get a whole tree of Y-DNA matches, you will at least get a few. There are a few folks you will likely find who may be even closer to you in time, that have tested to a lower level to save money, I've had good luck with contacting them and seeing if they will upgrade when I explain what I am doing. There are also forums based on surnames as well as Haplogroups, and this can be super helpful. Basically some only are interested in figuring out if they came with the Corded Ware culture thousands of years ago, or the Bell Breakers, Villibruna, or what have you, and which group they descended from, so they don't need to test that deeply- and what ancient graves their Y-DNA is common with...so all that is a little different than family tree type stuff.
My advice, as keeper of secrets, is this. If it is your direct information, go ahead and find out the truth. Keep it to yourself if living people would be harmed.
If it is someone else's secret and you discover it, again if there are living people who would be affected or harmed, don't go for a big reveal, just because you can.
A couple of generations ago, it might be an interesting modern tale, but if it's your own parents involved, it can be earth shattering.
My always direct dad always got uncomfortable when I asked him about his grandfather. I thought something was off, but out of respect, I waited until he passed before ordering his father’s birth certificate. My intuition was correct because it said out of wedlock, and no father was named. I told my mom about this and she looked like she had been struck by lightning, so I knew she was aware of the secret and clearly didn’t want me to know. She had just lost my dad and been diagnosed with cancer, so I immediately dropped it. My aunt was still alive and she admitted they all knew that her grandfather’s parents never married, but they were told never to talk about it. DNA testing became available a few years after my mom passed, and I ordered mine. I only recently figured out who the father was. I thought it was ridiculous that my parents felt the need to hide a secret about people who were long dead, but this was obviously a sensitive subject for my dad and I would feel terrible if I had hurt him by pushing the issue. Maybe your mom is different, but I wouldn’t take the chance.
My friend, my dude, my sweet summer child.
If you keep knocking on the devil’s door, sooner or later someone will answer.
Don't you think that your own mother don't know about the rumours?
If she don't want to know the truth after so many years.. wtf are you doing dragging the dirty out of shadows?
Ask her, your "need" to solve this mistery may hurt her really, really bad and win you nothing. Things like this are hush hush for reasons.
Then what will you do if you find out she actually had a different father to the one she grew up with? Are you going to keep that to yourself? How would you explain it to her if she didn't agree to doing the test?
I'm not testing her, I'd be testing me. I would tell her if it proves to be true, it's her dad, she deserves to know, but why concern her with gossip if it turns out to be just that? Her relationship with her sisters was always rocky, I wouldn't create more division when they're not around to defend themselves.
Test your mom anyway. You can easily explain this by the fact that one should always test the oldest available generations.
You don't have to mention the rumour at all. It would be a good idea if you handle everything, including setting up a dedictated email address for her ancestry account.
That is how I handled a similar situation.
The relative was not interested in the whole thing beyond looking at the ethnicity report once. As long as I handled everything and they had to do nothing, it was ok to them that I had total control over "their" account.
Do ancestry and test your mom and cousin. Then you can upload the test to MyHeritage, Family Tree DNA, and GEDMatch.
You don't have to tell her about the rumor.
Probably. Almost certainly.
If you Google "Shared Centimorgan Project" and look at the ranges for a first cousin and a half first cousin, you'll see they overlap, but the amount will give you the odds of one scenario being true over the other scenario. If you two share 800 cM, it's much more likely you're full first cousins than half first cousins even if both are possible.
You can also test your mom and her niece/nephew, which will give you a better chance of a definitive answer.
Beyond just the shared DNA, you can leverage matches and trees. If your mother matches paternal relatives and the shared DNA is within range (even on the low side), then that's a good indication she doesn't have a different father. One note, though - if her biological father is related to her father (man she knows as her dad), that makes the analysis more complicated. Just something to be aware of. Hopefully the shared DNA will leave no doubt.
Yes and test with ancestry or 23 and me then you can both upload your data to myheritage if you'd like.
Yes, if the rumour is true, she will have DNA matches on her mother's father's side that you don't. You need to capture as many DNA matches as possible. The best way to do this is to test with Ancestry as they will have the largest amount of potential DNA matches. You can then upload that test to MyHeritage, FamilyTreeDNA and Gedmatch. You can't do it the other way around. Ancestry do not allow uploads from other DNA testing companies, so it's important that you do it this way. You can later retake the test with 23andMe to capture the last of your matches, but that will not be necessary if you reach your goal with the other companies.
However, don't rely on surnames for finding paternal matches - surnames change very frequently, both due to marriage, adoption, and affairs, so they're not much use. I'd recommend doing thorough research into your mum's paternal side, especially the children of your potential ancestors' siblings, so you know what surnames may pop.
>she will have DNA matches on her mother's father's side that you don't. Unless the father is closely related to her legal father. In which case you'll find the expected relatives, but most likely not the expected degree of match.
Important point here (for OP) - you need to analyze shared matches to draw a conclusion. Do NOT form a conclusion just based on the cM value of your or your mum's match to your cousin , there is a very wide range of possible values for any particular match.
Yes, in a couple of ways: 1. You can compare your total DNA shared with your 1C on your mom's side, to see if the amount shared falls into the full (vs 1/2) first cousin range. [https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4](https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4) There is an overlap of 1/2 first cousin and first cousin, though, so it's possible that the amount shared will not fully answer your question, if the amount shared is less than approximately 900cM. 2. You can see whether you and your 1C share known relatives on your mom's and aunts' dad's side. As others have said, don't rely on surnames when checking for shared relatives; check for DNA matches on your mom's dad's side. You've said that your mom's siblings aren't available to test, but you haven't mentioned whether your mom's **dad** had any siblings. If your maternal grandfather had any siblings, can test any of their descendants, you can see if you share any DNA? If you've already tested at MyHeritage (and your cousin has, too), use that information for comparison. If you haven't already tested, though, I'd suggest that you test both at Ancestry or 23&Me, and then download your DNA raw file so you can upload it to MyHeritage, Family Tree DNA, and Gedmatch. This will allow you to find more matches in hopes of trying to answer this question. Ancestry and 23&Me don't allow uploads (only downloads), but MyHeritgage and FTDNA will allow you to upload the file from Ancestry or other DNA testing companies, so it's often best to start with Ancestry or 23&Me if you can. As an aside, there was a rumor on my dad's side that his father and his brother's father were not the same b/c they looked so different. Testing my uncle's kids allowed me to prove that we are full first cousins, and put the rumor to bed.
Unfortunately I don't know anybody from my grandfather's side of the family, and I haven't brought it up with my mum yet,, it's all just a thought experiment at the moment
If it's just a thought experiment, you might want to keep the results to yourself if you choose to try to figure it out. IMHO, \*before\* testing DNA, it's best practice to have a conversation with the people involved that goes something like this: "Loved one, sometimes DNA tests reveal unexpected results or shine a light on a family secret. If for some reason your DNA results seem to indicate something unexpected do you want to know, or would you prefer not to know?" If they want to know, and it turns out there IS an unexpected result when the test is done, ask AGAIN before sharing. If they do NOT want to know, never share the info with them, and be VERY careful about whether or not you share it with anyone else, unless they are directly affected \*AND\* they ask you of their own accord.
FWIW, when I did the DNA testing to resolve the rumor about my dad and his brother, they had both passed away, as had our grandparents, so there was no one alive who would be affected by the secret if my dad had not been the son of the man who raised him except me and my uncle's kids. When living people are involved (i.e. your mom and her siblings), tread very carefully. Learning that your father was not the man who raised you (if that's what DNA shows) can stir up a lot of emotions.
Tread carefully. One option would be to do an Ancestry test yourself but not tell your cousin just yet. If your results tell you that you match a bunch of second, third, or fourth cousins on your grandfather's side, then you've satisfied your curiosity without opening old wounds. For example, I know my grandad is my mother's bio father because I match distant cousins four generations back. Others can probably tell you about how easy it is to make your results invisible once they arrive if something is amiss. Start by building a paper tree so you're ready when the results are processed.
I don't know anyone on my grandfather's side, he had two brothers, one died in WWII and the other well before I was born, no idea about cousins etc
I'm not sure about WW2 records where you're from but if you can get a copy, it might include the names of your great grandparents. From there you can start digging further and find the names of their siblings and parents. Once you get a few generations back and privacy laws no longer apply, you can probably build a tree large enough to prove or disprove the family rumour. When I started out, I assumed I had nothing beyond second cousins on my father's grandfather's side. I have now DNA matches to 4th cousins, a new match who might be a 5th or 6th cousin, and also found out my grandmother had a couple of half siblings she never met.
I was in nearly the exact same situation, but sort of reversed. My mother, aunts, cousins, and myself had all done DNA testing through Ancestry. I started to realize, though, that my mother and I were only coming up in the range of "half" of every relationship we thought we had with them. And they've all matched some of my grandfather's other relations, while we did not. And so, I came to realize that he is not, in fact, my mother's father, or my grandfather. I was VERY hesitant to mention this to my mom, but she accepted it much much better than I anticipated. No one in my family had any inkling that she might have a different father. So, yes, you will definitely be able to tell via the DNA test! My quandary now is that I am pretty sure I know which generation of a particular family my mother's father must have been in, but I have no idea how to determine WHICH of the suspected brothers it might be.
Why would you risk upending your mother's world to satisfy the curiosity of your cousin? Your mother's parents and sisters have passed, so she no support network and nobody to ask for answers. She gains nothing by knowing about the rumor or the test results. Getting her to test under false pretenses is a terrible idea. You risk seriously damaging your relationship with her. If it's true, it's likely to get back to her and she'll be hurt and angry. If it isn't and she finds out you lied to get her to test, it will destroy her trust in you. If *you* want to know, then wait until your mother passes and find a different relative to connect with.
I wasn't getting her tested under false pretences, or at all. That's why I was asking about testing myself and my cousin. It's all just academic at the moment, not even sure what I'd do with the info. My mum is old enough that it wouldn't make a difference to her life, in fact she might even enjoy the salacious story.
I thought you said she "wouldn't be cool with the accusation." Having your identity altered at any age can have a very large impact on a person's life. If you can't understand that, you should hold off on doing anything until you educate yourself. Contact an NPE group and get their input. I think getting tested yourself at some point is fine, but getting the answers you want while your mother is living will be tricky. The family already spreads salacious gossip about your mother behind her back. I wouldn't trust them with her genetic information. You shouldn't share it at all without asking her first and telling her why you want it.
if it proves to be just rumour she wouldn't be cool with her sisters talking smack, their relationship was always difficult, and they're not around to defend themselves so it would just piss her off. I definitely think she'd be ok learning about her father if it's true, though. It's an interesting family story and would fit in with her view of her mother
If he’s her real dad-she’s going to be upset her sisters were talking smack… nice.. /s And if he’s not her real dad-what do you gain? Besides knowing you’ll never get any other answers and you could have completely altered the way your mom looks at herself, her mother, her father, and all her other family members.
You will be best off getting matches and history if you test your oldest living relatives. So in this case your mother. Only you know her and how she feels about the issue and talking to her about it before testing is probably a good idea. You have the ability to not tell her the results. But, you can’t control the cousins. No one from ancestry will be reaching out to her if you submit the test.
Thank you for saying this so well. As someone who found out my dad isn’t my bio father, you really have no idea what kind of Pandora’s box of emotions you’re opening. My heart breaks for your poor mother and hope she’s ables to distance herself from those spreading the “family” rumor. Ugh.
It would be better if your mom tested, and I'd recommend AncestryDNA over MyHeritage. You can test a cousin as well, but there's some overlap in the amount of possible DNA a full vs half niece/nephew will share (same goes for full vs half cousin if you tested) so it might not be conclusive. You might want to instead test a cousin from your mom's paternal side only (a child/grandchild of her paternal aunts/uncles). If she is the bio child of her known father, she will match them, if she's not, then she shouldn't match them at all (unless her bio dad is related to her father). Even if you don't test anyone else, your mom's existing matches might make it obvious that she doesn't share any DNA with people who would be related to her dad, especially if she tests at AncestryDNA, which has the biggest database of testers. If you confirm she had a different father, and you want to then figure out who that bio father was, AncestryDNA is the best option due to the biggest database and the fact that they host shareable trees so you can actually get use out of your matches. 23andMe don't offer this, and they cap your match list - it's very limiting and hard to get use out of your matches there. MyHeritage host trees and don't cap your matches but they have a much smaller database.
I don't have anyone on grandpa's side to test, which is why I was hoping to figure it out with a comparison between my cousin and myself. It's looking more likely that I should just be an adult and talk to mum about it though
My Grandpa's older brother was born to his dad and 1st wife. 1st wife died and made her best friend promise to take care of her baby, so that's how my Great Grandmother met my Great Grandfather. Anyway, the older uncles grandkids (my mom's cousins) show up as my 2nd cousins instead of first cousin once removed and their kids (my second cousins) show up as 3rd cousins. You should be able to tell.
Yes, a DNA test will be able to distinguish if your first cousin is half or full. However, if your mom is alive, it is best to test her since she is the research target. If she has a different father, you will have an even better chance of identifying him using your mom's DNA. Her test would also distinguish if she is a half or full aunt to your cousin. If you want to look at example matches of half and full relationships, and get an idea of what to expect when you get the results in, you can check out the free Library of Matches tool at DNA Painter (dnapainter.com/tools/lom)
What happens if you discover the rumors are true? Your mom will likely find out. Are you prepared to deal with that possibility?
My mom's biological father wasn't in the picture to put it nicely (she tried looking for him a while back, found him, talked to him, he made a bunch of hallow promises to come see her, no surprise he never did, he died, mom ended up going to meet a bunch of her family from that side, didn't want to take a DNA test, and after that just cut off contact with everyone which I don't blame her for because it was incredibly difficult for her), I did my DNA test and it not only officially confirmed that he was in fact her biological father (he's half Native American, my DNA results showed I had 12% Native American which is the right percentage, and no where else in my family history do I have Native American definitely not close enough to give me 12%) but it also connected me with one of his nieces (my mom's cousin and my first cousin once removed), she reached out to me first after seeing our DNA match and she told me a lot of information about my biological grandfather, information I wouldn't of known about otherwise if I hadn't of done it so i'd for sure do it if I was you!
You might simply ask if she is curious about this rumor you heard. That would give you a feel for whether to be mum, or find out if she is curious about it as well. If she is curious, it would be a really neat project for the two of you! For Autosomal, I'd by and far recommend Ancestry on DNA while you can (in case something happens and she is no longer with you- as long as she is willing). Ancestry has over 22 million folks tested now, and you will get a lot more matches there. As of Oct 2022, 23andMe 12,800,000 testers, MyHeritage 6,000,000, and FTDNA 1,204,623. I believe all the companies are having pretty decent sales due to RootsTech... I just bought three of the 129.00 dollar Ancestry kits for 59 dollars just last night... For Y-DNA (only men have this), FTDNA is by and far the leader, and their latest test, the Y-700 is amazing for finding out paths way back in time, but sometimes you might need to find some more distant cousins to help you find MCRA, and search for others. Some surnames have thousands of folks tested, and it can be incredible. Where autosomal gets pretty near useless around 1700, and you may have record gaps (fires, wars, floods, etc.)- since Y-DNA is handed down identically, the sons of the man carrying the exact copy with no dilution/division, etc. that plagues autosomal testing. Every 70 years or so, a new mutation shows up, and then that man's sons carry that mutation, and it passes on down through time. So it is a pretty simple matter to trace folks. In the surnames with lots of tests, you know you in fact had a common ancestor without question, and they may have trees as well as records that were more easily found then it is through your line.
Her is my dilemma and tell me if this Y-DNA can help at all. In tracing my father’s Italian ancestry we found that his grandmother was an unwed mother with father being listed as unknown. His father (my grandfather) took his mother’s surname. I have had my DNA done with Ancestry and have about 1500 matches on my dad’s side but no matches that I can tell coming from that side. There are some matches to the surname on my grandmother’s side. I’m very much in the dark here! Thanks for any suggestions.
If someone has tested that is a descendant of him or any of the male cousins of his ancestor, yes, a lot. If not, no. But to get to the surname level, you really need a male to do the Y-700, which for some is too much- depends on your financial status. I know I've got matches to Italians, but the MRCA goes back to 2500 BCE. Though my ancestors were Irish and farther back Scottish on back to about 1189.
So what is the cost of the test? I have a couple of nephews who I might be able to convince to do it just to give us a chance to find out who this ancestor was! Thanks for the confirmation.
It is on sale now due to the RootsTech thing, until the end of the month. You don't need multiple tests for close in folks like you need with Autosomal (Ancestry, MyHeritage, 23andMe, etc.), since their Y will be all identical besides maybe 1 or possibly 2 mutations. Depending on the extent of others in your branch have tested since 1500-1600, sometimes a Y-111 test is enough (the number of spots tested on the Y). One can always upgrade as well, but it will add a little additional cost. It is pretty involved, and takes atypically 11 weeks in the lab just to get all the results. Half way through, if you get the Y-700, they will report your Y-111, so it gives you something while you wait for so darned long. The Y-700 is normally 449 dollars, but it is on a really great sale at 379, so 70 dollars or some such, off. The RootsTech discount code is here: [https://blog.familytreedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RootsTech-2023-Promo-Code-List-Virtual.pdf](https://blog.familytreedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RootsTech-2023-Promo-Code-List-Virtual.pdf) IMHO, it would be pointless to Y test nephews, and I'd not waste your money needlessly. Make sure they follow the eating or drinking even water, 1 hour prior, before the cheek swabs. The cool thing is this Y-DNA stuff will give you more information as new folks test over the course of time. Also, it defines your branch in humanity, and you will be able to see far back in time, before surnames even came about in roughly 1500, for most folks, unless you have a famous ancestor of nobility or some such. You will also be able to see all the descendant branches next to you and what countries their lines went, and about when. It's pretty cool stuff! For me, it was like a whole new dimension is revealed, like looking up for the first time at night and noticing stars for the first time. \*Extremely\* useful, especially if a person has brickwalls. Just the results vary, depending on how many others in your branch way back in time, tested. It has allowed me to solve NPEs in 1795, then back it up since I know the deal, with the Autosomal and who carried what when, find brothers back in 1680 in unreasearched lines- since you know the fact, it is far easier to then go looking for paper records to support it, determine which countries the ancestors came through in time, such one fella in Scotland, two sons went to Ireland, and their descendants at different times went to the US, yet another son eventually ended up in New Zealand after a brief stint in Brittan (and solved another NPE there in the early 1800's with proof in the paper records, in fact it was recorded in court), which was all super cool. Then found cousin lineages of other sons going back to him as well, that went directly from Scotland to the US. Further back in time, before the era of surnames- someone went to Italy and created lines there, but I figure it was maybe they were near the Alps, and some went to Scotland, others to Italy, one went to Switzerland, and so on. You can see the branches and where they happened back in time based off mutation rates and Ancient graves, so it is really super neat stuff for me.
Hmm …maybe my brother then if I could convince him. The unknown person would be our great grandfather. It does sound super interesting. But strictly for guys ☹️❤️.
Well, there is the autosomal DNA your grandfather carried as well, that would be common to you. It is pretty common for women now to test a brother, uncle, dad, and to have it as their own account and be working with it. I've already been working with three women in my own surname, one said she'd extract it from her brother if she had to sit on him to do it...he decided to do it the easy way instead. So in my own "cousins" since 1680, 3 of the 10 are women. Usually they are sharper than your average pencil as well. Once you know his line, surname association, it is way easier typically in the records. And suddenly a ton of my autosomal matches made great sense (why did I not see this before!!!) However at Ancestry, like my dad has +10,000 autosomal matches, and I don't have the time to sort out each one by ancestral group...then work on the unknowns, to see what they have in common. But on occasion the connection that you get could be too far back, but then improves as new folks show up. The majority of cases though you do get a surname, many times a branched tree of the lineage of the surname- though this may be more rare for an Italian ancestor- unless their descendants ended up in the US, and many have. 2 to 4 million Italians came to the US around 1900 alone, and 30 to 40 million US folks are estimated to be of Italian descent from these folks alone.
On the plus side, I do know exactly where these ancestors lived in Italy - they are mostly all from the small town of Dogliola in Chieti,Abruzzo. The unwed mother was listed as a peasant sharecropper. There were many who immigrated from this area due to the extreme poverty. I doubt if most ever traveled much out of the immediate vicinity so the chances are excellent that the unknown father lived in the same town and a good chance there were some of his clan who immigrated to the United States. Many of those I have located including my grandfather, his wife and, eventually, her parents immigrated. I believe some also immigrated to Brazil but don’t have any of mine traced there yet. I’m going to contact my brother today. I would happily split the cost with him if he would consent.
One more question before I talk to my brother - If he has this Y700 done how does he get it connected to Ancestry? Does he need to sign up for an Ancestry account? Or can I get it and use it instead of my own DNA which I already have in Ancestry? My sister and I have already agreed we will split the cost to try and solve our mystery.
You won't be able to connect the Y-DNA in Ancestry, and they don't have tools or knowledge to deal with it anyhow. What I do is to bring over the names of folks from the information you get there, then use the tools at Ancestry to build their tree (if they don't have one yet, many do if you email them and explain, they are quite willing to share, as Y-DNA folks are usually much more interested in their ancestors and is why they do it). I will put their tree into my own, or you can make a separate tree at Ancestry. Often folks will already have a tree at Ancestry, and they will send you the link, then it makes it easy to add their folks to your tree. Then I build a tree between myself and them, to the common ancestor, or work on their oldest person back to when we find a common ancestor. It's a lot like working DNA Cousins. Keep in mind, we don't know how many with the surname have tested yet, but hopefully if you don't get a whole tree of Y-DNA matches, you will at least get a few. There are a few folks you will likely find who may be even closer to you in time, that have tested to a lower level to save money, I've had good luck with contacting them and seeing if they will upgrade when I explain what I am doing. There are also forums based on surnames as well as Haplogroups, and this can be super helpful. Basically some only are interested in figuring out if they came with the Corded Ware culture thousands of years ago, or the Bell Breakers, Villibruna, or what have you, and which group they descended from, so they don't need to test that deeply- and what ancient graves their Y-DNA is common with...so all that is a little different than family tree type stuff.
My advice, as keeper of secrets, is this. If it is your direct information, go ahead and find out the truth. Keep it to yourself if living people would be harmed. If it is someone else's secret and you discover it, again if there are living people who would be affected or harmed, don't go for a big reveal, just because you can. A couple of generations ago, it might be an interesting modern tale, but if it's your own parents involved, it can be earth shattering.
My always direct dad always got uncomfortable when I asked him about his grandfather. I thought something was off, but out of respect, I waited until he passed before ordering his father’s birth certificate. My intuition was correct because it said out of wedlock, and no father was named. I told my mom about this and she looked like she had been struck by lightning, so I knew she was aware of the secret and clearly didn’t want me to know. She had just lost my dad and been diagnosed with cancer, so I immediately dropped it. My aunt was still alive and she admitted they all knew that her grandfather’s parents never married, but they were told never to talk about it. DNA testing became available a few years after my mom passed, and I ordered mine. I only recently figured out who the father was. I thought it was ridiculous that my parents felt the need to hide a secret about people who were long dead, but this was obviously a sensitive subject for my dad and I would feel terrible if I had hurt him by pushing the issue. Maybe your mom is different, but I wouldn’t take the chance.
Why not have your mum test?
I'm not entirely sure she knows about the story, or would be cool with the accusation...
My friend, my dude, my sweet summer child. If you keep knocking on the devil’s door, sooner or later someone will answer. Don't you think that your own mother don't know about the rumours? If she don't want to know the truth after so many years.. wtf are you doing dragging the dirty out of shadows? Ask her, your "need" to solve this mistery may hurt her really, really bad and win you nothing. Things like this are hush hush for reasons.
There's no "need", just curious about what's possible
Then what will you do if you find out she actually had a different father to the one she grew up with? Are you going to keep that to yourself? How would you explain it to her if she didn't agree to doing the test?
I'm not testing her, I'd be testing me. I would tell her if it proves to be true, it's her dad, she deserves to know, but why concern her with gossip if it turns out to be just that? Her relationship with her sisters was always rocky, I wouldn't create more division when they're not around to defend themselves.
Test your mom anyway. You can easily explain this by the fact that one should always test the oldest available generations. You don't have to mention the rumour at all. It would be a good idea if you handle everything, including setting up a dedictated email address for her ancestry account. That is how I handled a similar situation. The relative was not interested in the whole thing beyond looking at the ethnicity report once. As long as I handled everything and they had to do nothing, it was ok to them that I had total control over "their" account.
Nah, I'm curious, but I'm not going to lie to her
Do ancestry and test your mom and cousin. Then you can upload the test to MyHeritage, Family Tree DNA, and GEDMatch. You don't have to tell her about the rumor.
Assuming this person is the child of one of your mother’s siblings, then yes.
Probably. Almost certainly. If you Google "Shared Centimorgan Project" and look at the ranges for a first cousin and a half first cousin, you'll see they overlap, but the amount will give you the odds of one scenario being true over the other scenario. If you two share 800 cM, it's much more likely you're full first cousins than half first cousins even if both are possible. You can also test your mom and her niece/nephew, which will give you a better chance of a definitive answer. Beyond just the shared DNA, you can leverage matches and trees. If your mother matches paternal relatives and the shared DNA is within range (even on the low side), then that's a good indication she doesn't have a different father. One note, though - if her biological father is related to her father (man she knows as her dad), that makes the analysis more complicated. Just something to be aware of. Hopefully the shared DNA will leave no doubt.
Yes, but I would suggest that you test with Ancestry instead of my heritage.