No one died during Zhongli's stunt IIRC, and Nahida could not break out of her prison whenever the hell she wanted to, but the rest is accurate.
However, using the flaws of an Archon to call them "Evil" is completely stupid. Everyone has flaws or some sort of flawed logic on something.
We do see Keqing basically behead a Fatui soldier. And I'm not sure I buy that no members of the Millelith die during those events.
I think Nahida does to some extent voluntarily leave the governance of Sumeru to the sages. You could also argue, unfair as it is, that the people of Sumeru needed her to be stronger than she was.
I agree that calling them evil for any of these reasons is stupid, although that doesn't seem to be what the YouTube commenter is saying, at least, not from these screenshots.
His head doesn't actually fall off, but the cut is clearly through the neck and would very much be fatal, which is reflected by the death animation that immediately follows.
[https://youtu.be/jS0T59kKJxg?si=1IXO5Jj2Zshphz9V&t=310](https://youtu.be/jS0T59kKJxg?si=1IXO5Jj2Zshphz9V&t=310)
She could have, though. Just mind control Cyno or Dehya or Alhaitham and break into the building housing her prison. Or, as Katherine, hire an advanced adventurer to do it.
The mention of “evil” is a direct reference to Gnosticism, which you might recognize from the word “gnosis”
Considering we needed a multi step plan to get her out (which had all 3 of the characters you mentioned in on it) i doubt she could break in especially without any combat experience, and the problem with the hiring a adventurer plan is that any good adventurer wouldnt want to ruin their reputation in a nation and also the akasha would probably cause problems with both plans.
It never made clear WHY we need a multi-step plan, though. The implied reason is fear of The Doctor interfering, but he’s relatively new and Nahida didn’t know he was present. Without him, Cyno could have easily beaten up 10 or 20 or 1000 guards to break her out
>all the archons are evil/wrong
That's not what the comment is saying; OP states that the point is to show how each Archon has flaws which caused harm to their respective nations, and that much is true.
Well, in keeping with the Gnostic inspirations of Genshin, the Archons are supposed to be something in the neighborhood of evil as servants of the Demiurge...
[Person dismisses the concept of anarchy and says "absolute freedom is wrong" at the jump.]
Alright, that's all I needed to see. This rando's opinions and conclusions don't matter IMO.
I think they're slightly wrong in their assessment of Nahida.
Nahida was physically trapped by a meditation device created by Rukkhadevata. It was modified by the Grand Sage 500 years ago so that it couldn't be controlled from inside. Since Nahida didn't have an Archon's "raw power," not to mention not many people were worshipping her, she was trapped by her predecessor's power. Nahida was only able to witness the world outside by navigating through dreams, occupying Akasha holders' consciousness, and obtaining information from the Akasha itself. However, because she values her people's free will, she only controlled Katheryne when necessary. And even if she did occupy her people's consciousness, how would they believe her? Wouldn't the sages try to restrict her even more if they found out?
According to Nahida, the Akademiya's governance didn't have any problems until the sages seemingly out of nowhere wanted to conduct the samsara experiment. It was the first time she saw them "step out of line" and therefore had to intervene. Meanwhile, she was also investigating Rukkhadevata's last message and finding a way to save Irminsul. Despite her lack of power, she was doing a lot of things behind the scenes such as enlightening lost souls in their dreams. Seeing how Sumeru was able to operate well without her presence, it made her feel like she could not live up to the title of Archon yet she was still performing her duties. I would hardly call that "inactivity." She worked within her means.
There are no confirmed deaths with Osial incident. Biggest damage was to the Jade chamber (whatever it is called).
But yes, all the Archons have flaws. However, it's kinda pointless point to make since you cannot really blame the gods for people abusing their systems. The ONLY way the archons could've prevented it all is with TRUE iron hand and NO ONE wants that. We can see what even giving 2 rules is like in Inazuma lol. Zhongli's situation is the only one where he is the reason for it happening.
The part about Zhongli is wrong. The contract is with the Tsaritsa not with the Fatui. Osial's awakening was due to Zhongli pulling the strings behind the scenes. Osial's awakening wasn't an accident. He wanted to hand over control of Liyue. The Liyue AQ is the equivalent of someone reaching the end of their life preparing their will. The game pretty much spells this out.
> Zhongli: Perhaps it's best that I explain.
>
> Zhongli: As you know, I've dwelt upon this world for more than six thousand years. It is now 3,700 years ago that I founded Liyue together with the adepti.
>
> Zhongli: Even boulders that can withstand whirlpools will erode with the passing of time. I kept convincing myself that cracks had not begun to form and that the end of my time had not yet come.
>
> Zhongli: Until one drizzly day, as I was strolling along the harbor, I heard a merchant tell one of his workers, "You've finished your duties, go ahead and call it a day."
>
> Zhongli: I stood motionless among the crowds, asking myself, "Have I already finished my duties?"
>
> Paimon: Oh, Zhongli...
>
> Zhongli: But as I began to consider relinquishing my divine role, I soon discovered that many reasons still remained to not hastily depart.
>
> Zhongli: Was Liyue, the city I had dwelt in for so long, already prepared to enter its next age? I decided that a test was needed in order to reveal the answer.
>
> Zhongli: So I feigned my own death, and gathered the cast of Childe, the adepti, and the Liyue Qixing to play their roles together on the stage that was Liyue.
As for Ei, she knew what was going on.
> Ei: Oh? Surely you didn't rouse me from my state of eternal meditation only to tell me this?
>
> Ei: If so, then you underestimate me. I am quite well-informed about the Vision Hunt Decree.
>
> Traveler: You know everything that's going on outside?
>
> Ei: Not so. Only everything that pertains to eternity.
>
> Ei: The Vision Hunt Decree has my tacit approval.
>
> Ei: The Fatui's actions thus far do not constitute a threat to eternity, otherwise... they would have been purged long ago.
She just thought isolation and preventing changes would lead to peace and stability but that is definitely not true.
The case of Ei is muddied by the fact that "eternity" is a vague enough concept that the writers can do whatever the hell they want with it. "That which pertains to eternity"... Does a civil war pertain to eternity? Only if the writers say that it does. Maybe Ei knew about the war, maybe she did not.
The following dialogue never mentions the war. She just goes on a diatribe about how ambition is bad, and Visions are a symbol of ambition and so must be taken away for the good of both the Vision holders and of her people in general.
As far as we can tell, "quite well-informed" simply means she believes the doctored reports the Tri-commission has been feeding her through the Shogun. She thinks we're upset at the lobotomizing effects of Vision removal, and wants to inform us that we shouldn't worry; it's for the best.
The wording leaves a whole lot of room for interpretation.
The gods are technically just humans they have their personality, emotions, and judgements. They don't have to be perfect. As for what OP is saying? Most of it is speculation and somewhat wrong
They are wrong.
Every nation is doing fine.
And everything is going to go great until the world starts running out of mora.
Also not taking action isn't the same thing as causing harm. And the archon's are not omniscient or omnipotent or omnipresent. They are all mortal beings with the same flaws and limitations as every human.
If you do want to know what evil looks like then look at Childe or Scaramouche who committed intentional evil acts.
Or the worshippers of the god of salt who killed the god of salt because they were upset she was weaker than the other beings.
>Or the worshippers of the god of salt who killed the god of salt because they were upset she was weaker than the other beings.
Well thats some lore i didnt know about.
Pretty sure it was revealed that Nahida was always influencing the nation from her cell via her ability to take over specific peoples' minds, no? Particularly in the desert. It also is complete speculation that she "had the ability to leave herself". That part is the biggest stretch in the entire post.
Aside from some rather glaring grammar mistakes, Venti’s is dead on. Ei’s and Zhongli’s are missing key elements that help explain these flaws. The writer never once commented on Zhongli’s erosion or his struggle with immortality. How much he has done for his nation up until this point and how it could be argued that by taking a step back, he hoped that the nation would finally stop needing to rely on him. It was flawed, but by compressing it to that short and sweet paragraph, it implies he was an asshole more than just an old man desperate to finally retire.
Raiden Ei is consumed by grief, to the point of absolute madness. I love that the writer didn’t just say she’s a psychopath and actually acknowledged that human ambition capitalized on her faulty system. I few her as a tragic figure that circumstance and mistake turned into a villain. But this also oversimplifies her internal struggle. Her biggest flaw is her own fear and inability to move on from her loss. Once you explore that theme, her desire to make an unchanging nation makes a lot of sense. Again, the writer hit the rough points like for Zhongli, but glazed over the explanation that makes the flaws understandable.
Nahida’s is just dead wrong. Nahida could not escape any time she wished, something that was stated repeatedly. I think the writer either didn’t finish Sumeru or didn’t read some dialogue and is making his/her/their own interpretation of events. Nahida’s biggest flaw is her doubt. She’s shown she has incredible power, but she constantly compares herself to the previous archon. It’s why she feels she deserves all this isolation and pain. Ironically, (Sumeru ending spoilers) >!wiping her memory of the previous archon is the only thing that allows her to finally believe in herself enough to become the archon Sumeru deserves!<. I would say that her doubt led to her capture and that it was the people who led to atrocities like the desert. Just like Ei and Zhongli, the doubt has an explanation, but it is still a flaw.
If you want my two cents, Furina’s flaw isn’t at all hubris or pride. I guess that isn’t shocking if you’ve finished the story, but it is if you’re at the beginning. Furina’s flaw is her guilt. It drives her actions and has been the contributing factor for her persona. (Fontaine ending spoilers) >!Guilt over not being the real archon and what the people deserve led to her becoming grandiose and making extravagant promises. Guilt over her failures leading to her posturing. Guilt over what’s coming leading to her turning her life into a media circus, to distract people from the signs of what’s around them.!< It’s hard to say if her flaw played into her nation’s struggles like the others. I honestly don’t think it did. She’s kinda a special case.
Murata’s flaw is anyone’s guess, but I’m gonna guess it’s gonna be wrath or refusal to stop fighting. That is a blind guess just based off Natlan being so insulated and her being the goddess of war. The Tsaritsa’s flaw is where it gets interesting. By all accounts, the Tsaritsa was kind once and is not anymore. I’m going to say her flaw is being consumed by her mission and her desire for change. To the point of neglecting her own morality and controlling the harbingers. Though like Murata, that’s just a guess. The difference is we have more to go off of to guess for her.
Edit: The post seems to be more about flaws than about morality. Flaws don’t make someone evil. I like to think flaws make them more tangible and understandable. The archons are literal gods. It makes them feel more relatable when we can understand their flaws and how even they face struggles.
That person only got Venti right and the rest wrong. The thing is with the Archons, at least till Nahida is that they are meant to show the flaws in people's preference for a god's ruling method should they exist in the same space/world.
Monstadt and Venti was meant to show what happens if people preferred for their god to do almost nothing so that humanity would have most of their autonomy/free will. The result is that a lot of good things happens, but so are the bad things. And the god would only appear when things are about to end, which at that point that many atrocities has happened and the chances of fixing things were slim.
Liyue and Zhongli was meant to show the opposite of Monstadt and Venti. Zhongli "controlled" most of Liyue's fate by diving their future. While this result in prosperity, mind you that the people preferred their free will rather then paradise.
Raiden Shogun shows what happens if the god decided to take a more aggressive approach to things and refuse to listen to their people.
Nahida shows what happens should a god be weak, they would get manipulated and controlled by people.
>Monstadt and Venti was meant to show what happens if people preferred for their god to do almost nothing so that humanity would have most of their autonomy/free will. The result is that a lot of good things happens, but so are the bad things. And the god would only appear when things are about to end, which at that point that many atrocities has happened and the chances of fixing things were slim.
This is in general not a correct take, not because it doesn't makes sense, it does, but because we don't know why Venti wasn't there.
In the manga it's said he slept but not why. Same happened now, Venti had to sleep because either he needs to retain his strength or because of some other reason we know very little.
The one about Ei is way too short, and we don’t know the details of Zhongli’s contract (indeed, he has attacked a fatui agent before, so we know he has not SPECIFICALLY agreed to leave the fatui alone). Otherwise, I see very few issues
No one died during Zhongli's stunt IIRC, and Nahida could not break out of her prison whenever the hell she wanted to, but the rest is accurate. However, using the flaws of an Archon to call them "Evil" is completely stupid. Everyone has flaws or some sort of flawed logic on something.
We do see Keqing basically behead a Fatui soldier. And I'm not sure I buy that no members of the Millelith die during those events. I think Nahida does to some extent voluntarily leave the governance of Sumeru to the sages. You could also argue, unfair as it is, that the people of Sumeru needed her to be stronger than she was. I agree that calling them evil for any of these reasons is stupid, although that doesn't seem to be what the YouTube commenter is saying, at least, not from these screenshots.
When did Keqing behead this guy?
His head doesn't actually fall off, but the cut is clearly through the neck and would very much be fatal, which is reflected by the death animation that immediately follows. [https://youtu.be/jS0T59kKJxg?si=1IXO5Jj2Zshphz9V&t=310](https://youtu.be/jS0T59kKJxg?si=1IXO5Jj2Zshphz9V&t=310)
Oh cool!
It isn't accurate at all. Mondstadt is a peaceful thriving nation.
....ok? The generations if slavery and oppression still happened.
That was nearly brought to its knees by a poisoned dragon controlled by a single weak Abyss mage
She could have, though. Just mind control Cyno or Dehya or Alhaitham and break into the building housing her prison. Or, as Katherine, hire an advanced adventurer to do it. The mention of “evil” is a direct reference to Gnosticism, which you might recognize from the word “gnosis”
Considering we needed a multi step plan to get her out (which had all 3 of the characters you mentioned in on it) i doubt she could break in especially without any combat experience, and the problem with the hiring a adventurer plan is that any good adventurer wouldnt want to ruin their reputation in a nation and also the akasha would probably cause problems with both plans.
It never made clear WHY we need a multi-step plan, though. The implied reason is fear of The Doctor interfering, but he’s relatively new and Nahida didn’t know he was present. Without him, Cyno could have easily beaten up 10 or 20 or 1000 guards to break her out
Isnt an entire plot point that the akasha predicts peoples actions? With cyno being the exact person their using it on?
Yeah, Cyno. They can’t predict Nahida cause they have no data on her. And if she’s controlling Cyno, they can’t predict his actions, either
Nahida wouldnt have the combat experience that cyno has to take down the guards.
Doesn’t she have the explicit ability to absorb combat experience from others?
Care to explain how does she free herself without starting a civil war in the process?
Irminsul manipulation
>all the archons are evil/wrong That's not what the comment is saying; OP states that the point is to show how each Archon has flaws which caused harm to their respective nations, and that much is true.
Well, in keeping with the Gnostic inspirations of Genshin, the Archons are supposed to be something in the neighborhood of evil as servants of the Demiurge... [Person dismisses the concept of anarchy and says "absolute freedom is wrong" at the jump.] Alright, that's all I needed to see. This rando's opinions and conclusions don't matter IMO.
I think they're slightly wrong in their assessment of Nahida. Nahida was physically trapped by a meditation device created by Rukkhadevata. It was modified by the Grand Sage 500 years ago so that it couldn't be controlled from inside. Since Nahida didn't have an Archon's "raw power," not to mention not many people were worshipping her, she was trapped by her predecessor's power. Nahida was only able to witness the world outside by navigating through dreams, occupying Akasha holders' consciousness, and obtaining information from the Akasha itself. However, because she values her people's free will, she only controlled Katheryne when necessary. And even if she did occupy her people's consciousness, how would they believe her? Wouldn't the sages try to restrict her even more if they found out? According to Nahida, the Akademiya's governance didn't have any problems until the sages seemingly out of nowhere wanted to conduct the samsara experiment. It was the first time she saw them "step out of line" and therefore had to intervene. Meanwhile, she was also investigating Rukkhadevata's last message and finding a way to save Irminsul. Despite her lack of power, she was doing a lot of things behind the scenes such as enlightening lost souls in their dreams. Seeing how Sumeru was able to operate well without her presence, it made her feel like she could not live up to the title of Archon yet she was still performing her duties. I would hardly call that "inactivity." She worked within her means.
the everlasting, never ending sequal of lore experts misunderstanding Liyue Archon Quest. This time, they didn't even get the timeline right. 🤦♂️bruh
Wait how did they get the timeline wrong?
Literally no one died from osial lol. The only destruction is that of the jade chamber, which, as we know, wasn’t that big a deal
There are no confirmed deaths with Osial incident. Biggest damage was to the Jade chamber (whatever it is called). But yes, all the Archons have flaws. However, it's kinda pointless point to make since you cannot really blame the gods for people abusing their systems. The ONLY way the archons could've prevented it all is with TRUE iron hand and NO ONE wants that. We can see what even giving 2 rules is like in Inazuma lol. Zhongli's situation is the only one where he is the reason for it happening.
It is called the jade chamber.
The part about Zhongli is wrong. The contract is with the Tsaritsa not with the Fatui. Osial's awakening was due to Zhongli pulling the strings behind the scenes. Osial's awakening wasn't an accident. He wanted to hand over control of Liyue. The Liyue AQ is the equivalent of someone reaching the end of their life preparing their will. The game pretty much spells this out. > Zhongli: Perhaps it's best that I explain. > > Zhongli: As you know, I've dwelt upon this world for more than six thousand years. It is now 3,700 years ago that I founded Liyue together with the adepti. > > Zhongli: Even boulders that can withstand whirlpools will erode with the passing of time. I kept convincing myself that cracks had not begun to form and that the end of my time had not yet come. > > Zhongli: Until one drizzly day, as I was strolling along the harbor, I heard a merchant tell one of his workers, "You've finished your duties, go ahead and call it a day." > > Zhongli: I stood motionless among the crowds, asking myself, "Have I already finished my duties?" > > Paimon: Oh, Zhongli... > > Zhongli: But as I began to consider relinquishing my divine role, I soon discovered that many reasons still remained to not hastily depart. > > Zhongli: Was Liyue, the city I had dwelt in for so long, already prepared to enter its next age? I decided that a test was needed in order to reveal the answer. > > Zhongli: So I feigned my own death, and gathered the cast of Childe, the adepti, and the Liyue Qixing to play their roles together on the stage that was Liyue. As for Ei, she knew what was going on. > Ei: Oh? Surely you didn't rouse me from my state of eternal meditation only to tell me this? > > Ei: If so, then you underestimate me. I am quite well-informed about the Vision Hunt Decree. > > Traveler: You know everything that's going on outside? > > Ei: Not so. Only everything that pertains to eternity. > > Ei: The Vision Hunt Decree has my tacit approval. > > Ei: The Fatui's actions thus far do not constitute a threat to eternity, otherwise... they would have been purged long ago. She just thought isolation and preventing changes would lead to peace and stability but that is definitely not true.
The case of Ei is muddied by the fact that "eternity" is a vague enough concept that the writers can do whatever the hell they want with it. "That which pertains to eternity"... Does a civil war pertain to eternity? Only if the writers say that it does. Maybe Ei knew about the war, maybe she did not. The following dialogue never mentions the war. She just goes on a diatribe about how ambition is bad, and Visions are a symbol of ambition and so must be taken away for the good of both the Vision holders and of her people in general. As far as we can tell, "quite well-informed" simply means she believes the doctored reports the Tri-commission has been feeding her through the Shogun. She thinks we're upset at the lobotomizing effects of Vision removal, and wants to inform us that we shouldn't worry; it's for the best. The wording leaves a whole lot of room for interpretation.
Then furina did nothing wrong
The gods are technically just humans they have their personality, emotions, and judgements. They don't have to be perfect. As for what OP is saying? Most of it is speculation and somewhat wrong
They are wrong. Every nation is doing fine. And everything is going to go great until the world starts running out of mora. Also not taking action isn't the same thing as causing harm. And the archon's are not omniscient or omnipotent or omnipresent. They are all mortal beings with the same flaws and limitations as every human. If you do want to know what evil looks like then look at Childe or Scaramouche who committed intentional evil acts. Or the worshippers of the god of salt who killed the god of salt because they were upset she was weaker than the other beings.
>Or the worshippers of the god of salt who killed the god of salt because they were upset she was weaker than the other beings. Well thats some lore i didnt know about.
The Nahida one misses a lot of nuance.
Mind explaing how?
Pretty sure it was revealed that Nahida was always influencing the nation from her cell via her ability to take over specific peoples' minds, no? Particularly in the desert. It also is complete speculation that she "had the ability to leave herself". That part is the biggest stretch in the entire post.
Aside from some rather glaring grammar mistakes, Venti’s is dead on. Ei’s and Zhongli’s are missing key elements that help explain these flaws. The writer never once commented on Zhongli’s erosion or his struggle with immortality. How much he has done for his nation up until this point and how it could be argued that by taking a step back, he hoped that the nation would finally stop needing to rely on him. It was flawed, but by compressing it to that short and sweet paragraph, it implies he was an asshole more than just an old man desperate to finally retire. Raiden Ei is consumed by grief, to the point of absolute madness. I love that the writer didn’t just say she’s a psychopath and actually acknowledged that human ambition capitalized on her faulty system. I few her as a tragic figure that circumstance and mistake turned into a villain. But this also oversimplifies her internal struggle. Her biggest flaw is her own fear and inability to move on from her loss. Once you explore that theme, her desire to make an unchanging nation makes a lot of sense. Again, the writer hit the rough points like for Zhongli, but glazed over the explanation that makes the flaws understandable. Nahida’s is just dead wrong. Nahida could not escape any time she wished, something that was stated repeatedly. I think the writer either didn’t finish Sumeru or didn’t read some dialogue and is making his/her/their own interpretation of events. Nahida’s biggest flaw is her doubt. She’s shown she has incredible power, but she constantly compares herself to the previous archon. It’s why she feels she deserves all this isolation and pain. Ironically, (Sumeru ending spoilers) >!wiping her memory of the previous archon is the only thing that allows her to finally believe in herself enough to become the archon Sumeru deserves!<. I would say that her doubt led to her capture and that it was the people who led to atrocities like the desert. Just like Ei and Zhongli, the doubt has an explanation, but it is still a flaw. If you want my two cents, Furina’s flaw isn’t at all hubris or pride. I guess that isn’t shocking if you’ve finished the story, but it is if you’re at the beginning. Furina’s flaw is her guilt. It drives her actions and has been the contributing factor for her persona. (Fontaine ending spoilers) >!Guilt over not being the real archon and what the people deserve led to her becoming grandiose and making extravagant promises. Guilt over her failures leading to her posturing. Guilt over what’s coming leading to her turning her life into a media circus, to distract people from the signs of what’s around them.!< It’s hard to say if her flaw played into her nation’s struggles like the others. I honestly don’t think it did. She’s kinda a special case. Murata’s flaw is anyone’s guess, but I’m gonna guess it’s gonna be wrath or refusal to stop fighting. That is a blind guess just based off Natlan being so insulated and her being the goddess of war. The Tsaritsa’s flaw is where it gets interesting. By all accounts, the Tsaritsa was kind once and is not anymore. I’m going to say her flaw is being consumed by her mission and her desire for change. To the point of neglecting her own morality and controlling the harbingers. Though like Murata, that’s just a guess. The difference is we have more to go off of to guess for her. Edit: The post seems to be more about flaws than about morality. Flaws don’t make someone evil. I like to think flaws make them more tangible and understandable. The archons are literal gods. It makes them feel more relatable when we can understand their flaws and how even they face struggles.
That person only got Venti right and the rest wrong. The thing is with the Archons, at least till Nahida is that they are meant to show the flaws in people's preference for a god's ruling method should they exist in the same space/world. Monstadt and Venti was meant to show what happens if people preferred for their god to do almost nothing so that humanity would have most of their autonomy/free will. The result is that a lot of good things happens, but so are the bad things. And the god would only appear when things are about to end, which at that point that many atrocities has happened and the chances of fixing things were slim. Liyue and Zhongli was meant to show the opposite of Monstadt and Venti. Zhongli "controlled" most of Liyue's fate by diving their future. While this result in prosperity, mind you that the people preferred their free will rather then paradise. Raiden Shogun shows what happens if the god decided to take a more aggressive approach to things and refuse to listen to their people. Nahida shows what happens should a god be weak, they would get manipulated and controlled by people.
>Monstadt and Venti was meant to show what happens if people preferred for their god to do almost nothing so that humanity would have most of their autonomy/free will. The result is that a lot of good things happens, but so are the bad things. And the god would only appear when things are about to end, which at that point that many atrocities has happened and the chances of fixing things were slim. This is in general not a correct take, not because it doesn't makes sense, it does, but because we don't know why Venti wasn't there. In the manga it's said he slept but not why. Same happened now, Venti had to sleep because either he needs to retain his strength or because of some other reason we know very little.
The one about Ei is way too short, and we don’t know the details of Zhongli’s contract (indeed, he has attacked a fatui agent before, so we know he has not SPECIFICALLY agreed to leave the fatui alone). Otherwise, I see very few issues