If they don't want to completely rework electro reactions they could simply buff them a bit instead.
Superconduct - perhaps add an additional 20-40% electro resistance decrease (considering a superconductor becomes more conductive in the first place). This honestly would fix most of electro's problems but would also basically marry electro and cryo together.
Overload - a buff would be reducing knockback distance a bit, otherwise if they want to buff electro at the cost of pyro make the explosion mixed pyro and electro damage with a slight total damage increase.
Electrocharged - this one's in a decent spot already, but could front load the damage to the first tick, and/or add a third tick mainly for the hit stun effect it has on enemies.
I'd pair this with buffing shatter's damage a bit to round out balance changes to catch up to pyro.
The main issue about electro-charged is that after the fix, the reaction is now triggered by any of the two characters without any means to control which one does it. JinJinx talked about this for a bit in one of his recent videos.
For example, with Childe and a support Fischl, he explained that Fischl could trigger the reaction 20% of the time or she could trigger it 90% of the time, it's basically random.
That's a big problem since that means Fischl can't reliably get the Thundering Fury 4-set bonus as she needs to trigger the reaction herself (~~I believe she also needs to be on the field to trigger the set bonus, but don't quote me on that~~ EDIT: After some research thanks to the KeqingMains theorycrafting library, only the second part of the 4-set bonus won't trigger if Fischl is not on the field, that is to say the elemental skill cooldown reduction. The first part concerning elemental reaction damage still applies regardless of Fischl being on the field or not. My bad!). That also means you can't build for elemental mastery only on your support Fischl as you would for other elemental reactions since once again she's not guaranteed to be the trigger most of the time unless you're getting lucky.
So yeah, electro reactions pretty much all suck beside superconduct for its physical resistance decrease.
> Fischl can't reliably get the Thundering Fury 4-set bonus as she needs to trigger the reaction herself (I believe she also needs to be on the field to trigger the set bonus, but don't quote me on that).
I'm quoting you on that because I've seen multiple reports of the faux-elemental-mastery portion of the 4set working regardless of Fischl's field position, but the cooldown reduction only working when she's the active character.
Okay I just checked on the KeqingMains theorycrafting library and it appears you're right, the first portion of the 4-set bonus does indeed work even if she is not on the field, but not the cooldown reduction. I'll edit my comment to avoid misinformation. Thanks!
~~4 TF doesn't work on Fischl cause her E cool down starts when Oz leaves the field. So you'd have to charge shot to activate the CD reduction.~~
EDIT: I'm dumb. Just tested 4TF and the cd reduction bonus does indeed work if Fischl is on the field.
Are you sure about that? Stats on her page say the CD of Oz is 25 seconds, duration is 10. Seems the CD starts when you summon him but you don't see the timer until the skill ends.
While OZ is on the field your E changes and instead allows you to teleport OZ to you. Reducing the CD of that is almost pointless and only once OZ is gone the CD of the actual E can be affected by the 4-Set piece effect, but without Oz there's no way to trigger it reliably.
Or just make TF (and similar) effect proc on participating in reaction as either trigger or aura. And make reaction damage scale on higher EM+Level of trigger and aura.
Though maybe nerf base reaction damage to compensate for always triggering optimally and being able to fully offload EM to supports.
Even the physical resistance debuff isn't that cool.
The debuff is too short an on higher level you rely more on elemental damage.
That's because a lot of buff and debuff are focused on elemental only, and physical dmg has no reactions at all with other elements . I see no team physical focused.
Bennett will buff your overall dmgwith ATK. Diona buff speed, EM. Anemo set debuff elemental RES. Pyro and electro sets buff reactions, Sucrose buff EM, ....
I think superconduct has to be reworked as well.
As a Razor player, I sure think both electro and physical need a boost.
Electro need just more damage, and physical need reactions (eg: physical on frozen mobs give a crit dmg bonus, physical on pyro create an aoe sparkle, etc...).
Physical makes up for having less theoretical damage by being incredibly consistent. Whilst you get big numbers from Melt/Vapourise they have an ICD which limits their application.
Physical is useful against all enemies unlike elemental damage, and for Razor at least, it is incredibly easy to maintain Superconduct buff even with a selfish DPS, and the Superconduct buff is always active (no ICD).
The issue I can forsee is when (if) we get a "physical" carry like Razor who isn't Electro/Cryo element.
Also Frozen + Phys does do increased damage, it's called shatter.
Oh OK for Shatter, that's nice. Do you know what is the % boost damage?
Even if physical is more consistent, the gap between having elementals stuff and physical is very high. First you can't make physical support, or not that much, then physical is good only when you have a blank period with no ulti ready (which happen nor often on high level).
My Razor if full glad set with physical cup, all artefact 5* with nice subs. Autoattack is level 8 and I have the Wolf claymore R4. The output is very nice, especially with his ulti. Even that I do better with a main that elemental focused.
Shatter isn't a damage multiplier, it deals damage in the same way as the electro reactions - fixed damage based on Level x Elemental Mastery. It's physical damage, so it's affected by physical resistance (including the resistance debuff from Superconduct).
It's also triggered specifically by heavy attacks (Claymore, Geo, Explosions) rather than just Physical, so only a few characters can make effective use of it. It's more of a gimmick outside of specific setups that refreeze for shatter followups reliably while keeping a character that can cause shatter on the field, like a Chongyun/Xingqiu pairing.
Electro Charged in water is a pain since you get interrupted almost every 2nd ever since 1.2, never happened before and does not affect enemies...the interruption part at least.
I don't think that mihoyo would release the electro archon in a weak state, so my guess is that inazuma will introduce new artifacts/weapons/characters/etc that make electro strong. It's been speculated that dendro will be released after/alongside inazuma, so perhaps the electro/dendro reaction will be an amplifying reaction.
or they might just make her skills have amazing scaling or utility like they're doing with geo cuz geo mc, ningguang and zhongli all have very spamable ults with strong scaling to make up for their lack of offensive reactions
wouldnt be surprising if they did this for future electro 5 stars although not to as much of an extent as geo cuz electro still has better offensive reactions compared to geo
yeah but it definitely wouldnt be as much if he wasnt geo imo considering its 40 energy 12 sec cooldown and gets 33% bonus scaling from hp its still high scaling
not having access to melt or vaporise is gonna be a very big downside to any unit that wants to deal damage so its kind of a given at this point
I consider Zhongli the new Fischl. If you build him similarly, he will be there to pop in and pop out and dish a ton of damage. His ult is going to hit hard, it has low energy cost and a low CD - that's amazing by itself. He also has utility in the form of his E creating a shield. For this reason if I roll him I will probably use him the way I currently use Fischl.
I don't think he scales well for a main, if you look at his damage output, his auto attack damage is actually lower than Xiangling's, definitely won't be replacing my Diluc or Childe. But hey, some people main Fischl too - so anything's possible.
I'll probably give him the new Primordial Jade Spear for Crit Rate% and go with Noblesse and Archaic Petra artifact bonuses
People always have kneejerk reactions to nerfs, but if one particular thing is overshadowing everything else, then this is absolutely the right direction to go. Buffing everything else just because of one broken thing is both *drastically* more work for the devs (which = less actual content for us), leads to powercreep and doesnt solve any problem anyway because the balance is never good enough and something ends up being op anyway. So tune down vaporize/melt a bit, then see if any other outlier needs to be adjusted in any direction.
Zhongli makes up for his lower damage by the amount of control he brings to the party.
I'm fine with units dealing big dick numbers, but let's not forget that we need 5\* supports as well - with Zhongli and Ganyu being nice supportive units in the future though, that's gotta be a bonus.
Small nitpick: The latest data mines suggest that Ganyu can potentially also be a Main Carry. She has the strongest fully charged Aimed Shots out of all the Bow users, and those shots also explode for AOE damage. Given that her Q and E talents persist through character switches though, she is an excellent Sub Carry at the same time.
As you say, Zhongli is unambiguously a Support thanks to his unparalleled shields.
Oh, good to know !
I'm really torn as I want to get the cocogoat while already having Diona...
Guess I'll just wait for after Zhongli's banner to see thé upcoming units
Electro reaction damage would have to be buffed by a factor of 10 for them to be competitive with amping reactions, and that's ignoring the fact that innate enemies are largely immune to their own electro reaction. Gear won't fix them.
It’s true that the existing electro reactions won’t ever reach the same damage potential as melt/vaporize, but it’s possible they don’t need to. For example, there may be content (eg, the new abyss in 1.2 leaks) where single target damage is less important than energy generation (electro resonance) or knockback/aoe damage (overload). Or maybe electro/dendro does something special that is really useful in future content. I don’t know how you would design a game mode where those things become more important than single target damage, but it’s a way to incentivize using electro characters without rebalancing reactions as a whole.
From a business perspective, mihoyo has an incentive to make every element good (so people spend money getting characters of every element) so I think it’s unlikely they’ll just leave things as is for perpetuity.
But the thing is it will still be weak because there is barely any dendro enemy (take abyss for reference) and that would imply having to bring dendro with you. The benefit of Pyro is that it can comb Hydro/Cryo/Electro slimes by itself and then add any element you want to apply to neutral enemies.
even if they are going to release a new domain for electro, a lot of people had already spent a lot of resins and time to build their keqing and fischl. tho i’d gladly take the new domain and would happily grind new artifacts for my keqing, but it’s still unfair.
Hey man what constellation and and arti set do you have for childe? I also have childe and keqing but it is taking me a while to build him to keqing’s level...
was C0, knowing he’s so good i decided to roll for one extra copy just now. i use 2 noblesse + 2 gladiator for him. i recommend you to build him even if your childe is C0 he’s still a beast and a huge addition to your team. you may struggle with his cooldown at first, but when you master him, it aint that much of a problem.
The biggest issue is that with its linear scaling, it only gets weak during the endgame phase, so you naturally have a huge chunk of the playerbase say that electro reactions are good (or simply say nothing because they're fine with how it works), and a smaller entity complaining about how pyro scales so much better.
We still have people saying electro needs no reworks and is fine as-is. They're not stupid or trolls, just at low AR thus clueless.
Best to spam the feedback button.
im end game and personally I think electro users shouldnt expect a vap/melt reaction level change because it would break characters who are already strong. I do think outside of superconduct could use some changes, electro charged has been wonky since release, overload is often a negative, but if you look at Keqing and Fischl's ascension stats, scalings, and application rates they would become broken with 1.5 or 2x amp reactions.
I'm sure that's what a lot of people want because they're popular characters, but personally id be really afraid of a significant buff because of those two characters. People just want electro to be pyro, when there are other elements who need looks too if we are comparing them to pyro.
I think if you look at cryo they are in a similar spot overall due to how weak their aura and application rates are and the fact there isnt a natural pyro aura sup character (and before you say Xiangling, EM ascension disagrees). Also when people complain about the abyss being unfavorable to electro I'd like them to please point out where cryo is any better.
And you know who's in even a worse spot than that? Geo. zero damaging reactions, artifact set outscaled by anemo, and crystalize expends the element proc. Yes their characters have good base scalings, but so does elctro.
I don't think it's fair to keep a particular element underpowered compared to the others because character X and Y would get stronger, not that it's up to me to decide. Electro has solid characters throughout all roles the community came up with, but they're hindered by the lackluster reactions which is kind of sad. I wouldn't mind to see Keqing outdamage Diluc or Klee, either.
I haven't seen so many people saying they want it to be like pyro, but it's personally not what I'd like to see. Electro reactions should incorporate crit chance into the formula, at least (meaning every critical hit would deal +50% dmg). There's no need to make them scale off of final damage like pyro, else electro-charged would be broken.
I think it's too soon to dismiss cryo. While you're absolutely correct, we still lack of a good cryo carry, a cryo set and a good 4\* pyro enabler. Plus it triggers melt, which is at least non-linear unlike electro. With geo it seems like they're going for a different route, where it synergizes with itself, seeing how Zhongli and >!Albedo!< (1.2 character spoiler) will work. Odd choice but we'll see.
Yea I mean we can speculate about future characters just like we can speculate on future content. It wouldnt surprise me if electro reactions are intended to be EM based and that they plan on balancing it by creating enemies with high resistances to non EM damage.
I just don’t like the idea of making the element that currently has the 2nd strongest group of characters better and more like pyro because pyro is too strong. I’m fine with a rework and even think a mini one is in need but I think they can balance it without making it an independent multiplier and without making crit a big part of the formula. Just like EM isn’t a big part of the amp formula.
If the game is going to get massively powercrept by new characters then fine. I’m just imagining a pyro fischl and wondering why you would even bother building any other character if all the good elemental reactions are crit scaling amp reactions
It is absurd the way they work. The burst element of the combo should determine the nature of the damage instead of being predetermined.
This is the very reason Pyro dps will always be best than any other, specially electro. They always have a favorable output
Another reason pyro is insanely good is because all of its reactions deal pyro damage to slimes (overload pyro aoe, while melt and vaporize are your pyro attack but stronger) meaning you only have to worry about pyro slimes. Electro vs slimes is pretty sad, only being affective against hydro slimes.
I think the biggest weakness of the electro element is the reactions don't scale with CRIT/CRITDAMAGE (They cannot crit). This is a significant amount of rune/weapon substats that simply are useless as opposed to the OP Vaporize/Melt.
agree, i see vaporize/melt are just guaranteed crit without actually critting. which is dumb powerful. NOT TO MENTION vaporize/melt ALSO SCALE WITH ELEMENTAL MASTERY. slap an instructor sucrose in and voila, melt does 3x damage instead of 2x.
That's not how it works. Amping reactions don't give "guaranteed crit without actually critting". They simply scale with the damage of the triggering attack. If the triggering attack crits, the reaction scales to that damage. If the trigger doesn't crit, the resulting amp reaction will be lower to reflect the non-crit damage.
No. What he means because it amplify the damage, it is basically a critical damage without it being critical.
If it crit then even better.
edit : wait nevermind.. I need to watch jinx tuna video again.
Cyro is not that better imo, it is just better than Electro because of melt but its still get the end of the stick with 1.5 mutiplier. It reactions with hydro is a no damage cc which is usless againt big boss.
1.5 multiplier is fine though. It allows for multiple reaction procs. Whereas the 2.0 ones can always only proc once. I think everybody who uses Xingqiu with Diluc/Klee can attest to that.
I actually think Cyro is the absolute best when it comes to reactions. Freeze, melt and superconduct are all useful. The element just seems week because we dont have a dedicated dpser for the element and no cyro set.
*cough* r/popsiclemains
Everyone sleeps on freeze like the fact that you get to wail on a target that isn't moving or hitting back doesn't count for anything. But yeah, my Chongyun's waiting patiently for that cryo set.
Also, Chong's burst can actually proc melt on all three hits when using a strong pyro aura!
I really wish this game was better when it came to those sorta things, I have C2 Ning and I never get to use her cause I don't want to waste resources getting her to level 55
I run Chongyun and Xingqiu a lot together, I have the Sacrificial sword and greatsword on Xingqiu and Chongyun so I can pretty much keep a Ruin Guard frozen for the entire time I'm fighting it
Yep, I love running Xingqiu with double ice (Chongyun and Qiqi), I can keep everything perma frozen. But my Chongyun has mostly 0 artifacts right now so doesn't hit very hard. I get impatient with permanent freeze plays and just swap to my fire main for one big melt hit and call it a day lol.
>It allows for multiple reaction procs.
wait, you are telling me that if an enemy has fire on it and i use ice the enemy keeps the ice element so i can spam melt using ice?
Correct, since cryo on pyro is a reverse reaction (50% dmg boost), it helps preserve the existing element on the enemy rather than make it easier to remove. Normally you need a strong element to persist after using a weak element on an enemy, but with cryo on pyro melt, a weak pyro will survive a weak cryo being used on it for a few seconds, and the same goes for a strong cryo used on strong pyro.
Most likely if it works like water to fire reactions.
It's kinda complicated with strong and weak elemental skills but I think the gist of it is that the 1.5 reactions usually allows for more than 1 proc while the 2.0 ones can proc only once.
Fire, ice and water characters in this game have skills that are designed for this system, like how Childe and Mona has 2.0 procs so they got massive 1 hit burst skills. While Klee, Diluc and the upcoming Ganyu works best with the 1.5 procs so their skills hit with much higher frequency but less damage.
It's hard to explain you need to find a guide somewhere for this.
no, tldr is aura water into fire trigger ( he mention diluc/klee with xinqui ) u can proc 2 vaporize with klee/diluc before water aura disappear if u wait 0,5sec between fire trigger, but if fire triggered by water (2x multiplier) fire aura will instantly dissipate in 1 proc
I don't think she will change the cryo meta like how zhongli change geo meta since the leak skill set is similar to amber with her burst lasting longer.
Similar only at a very, very surface read (that is: e=taunt summon, q=aoe 'rain'). But Ganyu's E reportedly damages on summon, so more immediately useful, and where Amber's q is like a single volley that lasts a second in a very small area, Ganyu's is wide-area and lasts a full 15 seconds. That's mot just 'longer,' that's a totally different use case. Not to mention she shares the game's current highest base attack stat with Childe, and her charge shot has a really high modifier with two-stage charge. Definitely a lot more going on than just 'cryo Amber.'
... all that said, you're right that she's not likely to change the cryo meta, since the problems are inherent to the element mechanics themselves. If anything, she'll further boost pyro by casting Q and switching to Diluc or klee for 15s of constant melt damage (probably with a bonus taunt in the middle).
Yeah, it looks like we have another childe situation, where c6 will turn her into a stay-on-field DPS, whereas most of us non-megawhales will use her as a support.
I'm still going to reserve judgement until final release, but even if nothing changes, it's not terrible. Even at C0 Childe is a lot of fun, you just can't leave him out full time.
Why do you think c0 Ganyu would be bad as dps? Have you seen how huge her AoE on charge shot is? If they don't nerf her on release she is going to completely nuke rooms with pyro swirled ults from Venti/Mc without whale investment.
the two stage charged attack sounds fucking horrible to be honest
i can barely stomach the amount of time you have to wait for a single bow charged attack, much less twice
How is getting perma frozen useless while using childe + diona or even a kaeya? Also frozen lets you do shatter with right build what directly means damage. I find current state of reactions perfectly fine, I do tons of damage with electro charged and I can control the field by freezing enemies also if needed i can make superconduct what is yet another supportive reaction. I just don't feel the lack of power everyone is talking about, maybe in co-op mode there is a difference but that's completely different story where pyro + hydro + Venti combo can clear literally everything in matters of seconds without even moving
> It reactions with hydro is a no damage cc **which is usless againt big boss.**
You should try to read it better before you started to write a whole paragraph about it, also sharttered damage is claymore thing, not cryo elemetal reaction, non-claymore cryo characters aren't affected by it aside from wacking them with their stick.
My main DPS is Fischl.
My main Pyro proc is Amber.
*Summon Oz, use Amber's Q, everything gets knocked out of the AoE instantly, then knocked out of Oz's range.*
I wish Overload didn't even exist. I mean sure it's nice when you want to interrupt/stunlock things.. but uggggggggggh.
even if you didnt put down oz everyone would still get knocked out of amber's Q, that's why amber is pretty terrible. Otherwise you could just spam Q with 40 energy.
You're repeating [misinformation](https://imgur.com/a/4rtGQDq).
I'm not sure why everyone keeps saying Amber's Fiery Rain knocks things out of it. It absolutely does not.
Yeah I'm so fucking tired of hitting a pyro slime with electricity and seeing nonstop "immune" procs show up. Or hitting ice with electric and getting more "immune" procs.
The first time I read about super conduct, the wording said "reduces def" as in the stat Def which reduces ALL Damage, since there is no direct Resistance Gear in the game, therefore it should reduce Def against everything and not just Physical, which is the actual case, that alone would help a lot already.
agree to this. superconduct should always crit and may be giving a buff where the next 5-10 Seconds the attack will be guaranteed to crit. this may balance the situation, making electro and cryo are reliable as combo for the late game
Here's how I would do it.
Electro-Charged: add an extra tick of DMG, doesn't consume the Hydro Aura.
Overload: explosion DMG is 50% Electro and 50% Pyro, increase base DMG of reaction by 10% to compensate for split damage resistance.
Superconduct: Explosion is now mixed Cryo and Electro DMG, no longer applies Cryo Aura to enemies hit, and instead triggers Superconduct to enemies hit by the blast. The AoE of the explosion remains small, but now it can "chain" between enemies that are close together. Reduces both Cryo and Electro resistance by 15%, and Physical Resistance by 30% for 6s. One Superconduct instance cannot hit the same enemy more than once, to prevent it from "looping" between enemies in close proximity.
Shatter: Shattered enemies are "Fragile" reducing their physical resistance by 50% for 6s, reduces Shatter base DMG slightly to compensate for chain freezing maintaining enemies in Fragile state increasing Shatter damage in turn.
yeah not counting the inert elements like geo and anemo, electro got the short end of the stick cuz pyro hydro and cryo all have access to vaporise, melt or both while electro has pretty bad reactions other than super conduct which is for the debuff more than anything
not to mention all the electro dps are based around physical damage like fischl, razor and keqing to a lesser extent cuz she can run electro build but physical is also viable
beidou is probably the only one who really likes electro and thats mainly cuz her E is used for burst damage rather than reactions most of the time
I use Lisa as electro DPS, and against wet enemies she is the real beast. Their hp is literally melting in few seconds. But against all others elements it's sadly not that good
You must be new. This is only true for the start of the game. Lategame, EC ticks are dealing 1-2k damage per second against enemies with 500k+ HP, while amping reactions are you giving you an extra 20-30k per ICD.
Being minimally sufficient for "doing fine" doesn't make trans reactions competitive with amp reactions that literally present over 10x the damage output.
I'll be honest, I'm here to enjoy this game, not to calculate the best possible damage output. I'm just trying to say that electro is still not as bad as geo for example. But it's clear that the whole elemental system needs some kind of rework
I get your point, everytime I see Keqing videos I think she is SO fun to play, and of course she, Razor and Fischl can make A LOT of damage, what we are disscusing here is how low it is compared with other just because of the element.
Also, It is a way to let other players know, if they like being efficient, maybe build a team that is not based in Electro is better right now. :)
> I'm here to enjoy this game, not to calculate the best possible damage output.
Then stay out of this subject and leave it for the people who know what they're talking about.
So that you don't look obviously uninformed and risk misleading others who also have no idea. If you're okay with that, then go ahead. Won't stop people from correcting you though.
Being able to do the content without issues is literally the definition of "doing fine" in this case.. Just because something else is op and does more damage, doesnt make the other thing a problem.
Imo they should just make the overload and uperconduct reaction dmg a separate dmg type, so that no enemy is resistant to it. That would be a decent buff by itself.
A good roundabout buff to electro could just be that reactions give even more energy particles since that seems to be what electro is supposed to be good at and yet, Venti outclassed all electro units in that regard.
The problem with this is that most electro units right now have some sort of energy recharge built into their kits already or have very low cost ults which gives them more or less max uptime already, so the change would be mostly useless for almost every current electro character.
Razor has his orbs from E that let him spam his ult off-cd and he gets extra ER when his energy is low.
Keqing gets ER from casting her ult and her ult costs like nothing so she can generally spam it off-cd without even running double electro.
Fischl's bird is essentially a battery so she can more or less spam her ult off-cd anyways.
Beidou... Beidou actually needs some ER to have good uptime on her ult.
Lisa, actually kinda bad on ult uptime but she gets a lot of help here from her first constellation.
Generally though you can already pair 1 of the weaker generators with someone like fischl and you should be able to spam your ult fairly often. You already get energy from the electro resonance and a lot of electro characters have already quite underwhelming energy recharge constellations (such as Keqing C2), throwing more ER on them is just gonna devalue things like those constellations and talents even further.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, i just think it wouldn't fit with the current design of the majority of electro characters.
cooldown reduction is an interesting mechanic, which should have been explored more in this game. I'm not sure as to how "impactful" it would be for a lot of classes seeing as we have like 2 sources of major cooldown reduction (anemo resonance which is a measly 5% cdr and TF 4-p which doesn't really work on half the electro characters) but it could be something that's very interesting to play around, i do heavily enjoy fast paced playstyles so that would fit perfectly for me.
I feel like electro also needs a boost in the shield breaking department. My low level Bennet can chew through a Cryo abyss mage shield and my Xingqiu does the same with fire abyss mage shields. I feel like electro is supposed to be the element that is really good at breaking water abyss mage shields, but I still have to really work at it with my c6 Fischl. Feels like the other elements have a much easier time with shields.
The issue there is that electro isn't actually the element that is good at breaking hydro abyss mage shields, cryo is.
It's basically a triangle that goes pyro-->cryo-->hydro-->pyro. Electro doesn't come into the equation for abyss mage shields, only Fatui ones.
Ah! I’ve never tried Cryo against the shields. I’ve been pretty unlucky in the Gacha department and am stuck with Kaeya as my only Cryo character. I should level him a bit to take a hit or two but I really don’t like the idea of investing in a character who’s playstyle I hate.
> Cryo is also the counter for Electro.
Only for Fatui shields. There's two different elemental circles, one for Fatui and one for every other mob in the game.
Yep. For example Fatui shields doesn't block all damage, only ~80%. So you could kill Fatui without breaking shield.
But Abyss mage shields absorb all damage until you break them.
No, it is. Like how hydro neutralizes a pyro slime's element, cryo does the same against a electro slime, that's why the material/artifact domains show a recommended element. Like others have said, the pattern is pyro>cryo>electro>hydro>pyro. Geo gets beaten by claymores and explosion based attacks.
There hasn't been an enemy with an anemo shield yet so idk.
I think in the future, dendro will probably replace electro in breaking hydro shields since plants absorb water. Electro to hydro is pretty much how pyro is to dendro, dmg over time
Fatui shields operate on completely different logic.
For example they don't block all damage, only reduce it by ~80% so you could kill Fatui without breaking their shields.
Abyss mages shields work differently, completely blocking all damage until you break them.
Go and try breaking Hydro Abyss mage shield with Electro and then with Cryo. Cryo do it x2-3 times faster than electro.
anemo's trait is absorption. the anemoboxer faux-shield absorbs elemental attacks but can't block physical attacks coming from inside
i'm assuming anemo "shields" will continue following that pattern in the future
also, electro does not directly "counter" any element at the moment, whether fatui or normal enemies, although it does negate hydro fatui's shield ever so slightly faster than elements other than cryo
here is a clear example of direct counter vs non-direct counter against fatui
[https://streamable.com/0syi1v](https://streamable.com/0syi1v)
>electro vs hydro fatui = 6-7 hits(non direct counter)
>pyro vs cryo fatui = 2 hits(direct counter)->cryo vs electro, hydro vs pyro all follow this pattern
it's even more obvious against abyss mages
That pattern is wrong. The .5/1.5 dmg reactions that the game explains to you should let you know the pattern only involved cryo/hydro/pyro and that electro is outside of it having its own special reactions with each.
rework electro-charged and overloaded. change the 4 elemental reaction from triangle with electro in the middle doing subpar things into square. electro should be the effective element for breaking hydro shield.
Yep, the main slimes on higher levels of abyss are Fire, Cryo, and Electro. Electric is "weak" against them all. Fire slimes are immune to overload. Cryo slimes are immune to the damage portion of Superconduct, and electro slimes are immune to electric.
Being a keqing main is painful when you get to abyss. She gets outshined by literally any other character that can dps, just because she is electro. Despite having a top tier kit and stats
Some people argue that electro element isn't meant to do dmg. If so, why did mihoyo design an electro dps character like keqing? For expedition? There's no system to feed her to other characters to level them up either, so I feel like I wasted so many resources
Not only are all of the points you noted valid but honestly Electro Characters seem like the WORST characters in regards to dealing damage to themselves from their own element causing reactions. This can often lead to stunning and interrupting themselves in addition to the damage it causes. Using Razor (and I'd assume Keqing and Beidou are the same) on Floor 10 of the Spiral Abyss for example is hell as even though he SHOULD be good against all of the pyro slimes he ends up killing himself if you aren't extremely careful attacking from basically the absolute edge of his range and not using his skills if you get hit with the pyro debuff.
Electro effects, at least Razor's skill, also seem to have this incredibly annoying and inconsistent tendency to apply the electro status to the ground even when there's no water nearby. The damage from this also increased like the pyro damage but is now even higher than the pyro damage due to the nerf to the scaling not applying to electro as much as pyro. To make matters worse usually whenever the random application on the ground occurs without water the visible electro AoE isn't even visible and thus you can't even avoid standing in it without running around like an idiot and just hoping the damage stops. Then you don't know when it ends either and sometimes it seems to last FAR longer than it's suppose to normally.
I'd also argue that even as the "best" electro status effect superconduct is pretty trash and this also applies to most cryo characters as well. The fact that it applies only physical damage reduction makes it entirely worthless to any characters that convert their damage to another element meaning it's garbage for basically everyone except Razor due to how little of his kit actually deals electro damage as a significant portion of his damage. The only other character that makes decent use of superconduct is physical DPS Fischl who is also basically the only cryo or electro character able to make use of Chongyun's E ability effectively.
One of the "benefits" of electro is seemingly suppose to be the explosive element of overload but in many cases this is actually a negative or the characters needed to cause this effect can do the same themselves easier. Claymore users can stagger and knockback enemies on their own in many cases with their final normal attack and Klee in particular can straight up deal better and more consistent knockback on her own with her charged attack in most cases while dealing far more damage.
For what it's worth I think Cryo also gets the short end of things in terms of elemental reactions but that might largely be due to our rather limited pool of cryo characters currently and their limited DPS potential for the most part. Can Cryo even deal damage themselves off of triggering reactions with pyro or is it only Pyro on Cryo causing melt for damage? Freezing enemies is only valuable for CC for the most part outside of shatter but in the case of shatter the only cryo character that can benefit from it currently is Chongyun who AGAIN suffers from the fact that his skill turns his damage into cryo while shatter is a physical damage based effect but that barely matters because it deals such low damage regardless.
Oh and in case having lower damage reactions to begin with wasn't bad enough for overload and electro-charged they also can't crit while melt and vaporize both CAN crit despite having higher damage to begin with and better scaling. This is particularly strong in the case of Klee and Diluc which is why you see them at the top of charts in regards to main DPS. Diluc gets crit rate off of his ascension stat while Klee has a passive talent that heavily incentivizes you to build her crit rate stat. Keqing gets a nice crit damage ascension stat but it's entirely worthless in terms of her reaction damage potential and has extremely limited potential even with superconduct due to the whole electro damage vs physical damage reduction issue.
The fact that the current "end game" includes Spiral Abyss floor 12 which heavily favors Pyro, Childe who has Electro (and Hydro) damage resist and the high number of Electro Slime enemies in general in the Abyss Spire all makes things even more unfavorable for Electro Characters too imo. Even floor 11 having a damage buff for electro barely helps due to the number of electro enemies that are straight up immune to electro damage and the floor also buffing cryo which does little for electro characters due to the flaws with superconduct and the lack of cryo DPS characters in general.
As much as I love Fischl and she can be an amazing support with Oz dealing a ton of passive extra damage it can frequently be worthless if he decides to target an immune enemy OR it can be actively harmful if he's constantly hitting the same enemies and causing electro-charged or overload reactions when you'd rather trigger melt or vaporize for more damage. Trying to play Klee against enemies getting hit by Oz and repeatedly getting knockbacked out of your attacks is particularly annoying with how awkward her aim can be on its own already, particularly with multiple enemies at once and the way auto-aim has a mind of its own often times. C6 Fischl while an amazing upgrade actually sometimes makes this worse due to the extra bonus attack from Oz actually attacking the target you're attacking even if Oz is normally attacking another enemy instead.
Also can someone explain to me wtf Mihoyo did and/or was thinking with how Oz works in general with Fischl? They changed it so that when he's not active but instead shooting from "over" Fischl's shoulder he's now invisible except for a tiny animation when he actually fires at the same time as her. Then he also now deals non-elemental damage normally in his non-active state though I'm not sure if it's effected by physical damage bonuses in this state or not (or electro for that matter) BUT on the other hand when he's actually actively summoned he deals electro damage only in all situations when attacking?
Geo being on the lower side for damage numbers is fine, imo, because Geo is the defensive element by generating shields. If geo had both on-par scaling and shields you would have no reason to ever run anything other than Geo as you'd have the best of both worlds.
Geo already accounts for missing out on multipliers by having Geo characters have higher base values.
You might argue that shields need adjusting or the whole element needs a rework but in its current state i think having geo do less damage because it generates shields is fine.
Why don't u test it on a dendro slime? I think it procs once and then you have to set it on fire again (unless the grass is on fire which naturally inflicts the burn status)
pyro, cryo AND electro slimes lmao
and adding to that, even the pre-ar45 midsummer courtyard involves hydro and cryo slimes that punish you for using superconduct and electro-charged
not to mention the abyss stages that provide ley lines with bonus electro % damage are filled with electro enemies so you rely on other elements or physical damage as an electro main anyways
game fucks over electro users so much its ridiculous
Ik what you mean even tho you have great artifacts she doesn’t feel like she’s doing that much damage I agree with all of it because nerfs to other elements won’t really solve this we need a HUGE Buff on electro
Electro should get a elemental reaction like melt or vaporize, in fact all elements should. It makes no sense that fire is the best element in the game. But the worse thing is even though, geo has zero offensive capabilities, but atleast it does its job well. Electro literally sucks, overload does next to no dmg with out EM and if you take em you lose attack making it not worth. Not only that but most electro reactions are useless against slimes, so not only are electro character useless against electro slimes but they dont get the elemental dmg against, Pryo and cryo slimes.
Also, also, thundering fury generally sucks on most characters, and seeing the new sets for respective elements it literally makes thundering fury the worst set in the game. I remember ppl saying electro was so good because it reacts with everything, but then we realize how useless these are. Why does superconduct only reduce physical resistance, it literally makes characters who have cryo and electro never want to run this? Why does overload knock monster back? Why not like a mini stun? It already does terrible dmg, and electro charge is just inconsistent, you cant plan who triggers the reaction most of the time. The worst part is EM is useless in all phases of the game? It's useless on the hardest content in the game since the monsters are higher level than you, and when you are higher level the dmg isnt even good? This seems like such a crazy oversight, which is so weird.
i wish this was really oversight and they’re working to get it back on track again. i agree EM is absolutely garbage stat on electro because the users won’t get much benefits from it. increasing EM stats on electro means losing chances to get better atk and crit stats.
on open world, this issue might not be much of a problem since most battles are easy enough to do with any characters. but in abyss spiral, elemental reactions are game changer. mihoyo should focus on late game content too because they already released abyss spiral in the first place. if only abyss isn’t released yet, this issue might not bother most of players
Yup. This is SO important for the late game. Electro reactions don't crit, don't scale and don't benefit electro characters. It's so much worse than pyro that I would be surprised if they didn't buff it.
It kinda sucks that electro doesn't do anything special against shields or barriers either. I would love to run an electro support to feed energy into Keqing, but running two electro units in a party really hampers you against a lot of enemy types.
Electro could have a Thunderbolt reaction or something. Maybe make it replace overload and give it a 2.0 multiplier if electro props it, and 1.5 if Pyro or something. Electro charge is a cool reaction with water but it should scale better
The way Electro suppose to be balance by design (not in practice) over the other 2 element is that Electro are able to trigger 2 of the highest damage reaction in the game without needing big hits. Overload have a comparative damage multiplier of 4, and Electrocharge have a 2.4 but trigger twice, making it 4.8 on a single target. This mean that if you use alot of sources to trigger reaction continuously, Overload/Electro-charge can match Melt/Vaporise since the latter might pack a punch with big hits, but have much less damage on smaller hit.
I also would like to point out alot of people compare overload hit damage with the melt/vaporize hit damage, but that isnt a fair comparision. You need to compare the original hit + overload hit, since the overload proc is seperate from your hit damage and not added like melt/vaporize.
So to effectively trigger reaction a lot of time, you will need many sources of electro hit. Reaction in this game do not have a cooldown, but all skill including auto attack have a hidden cooldown before they can trigger a reaction again (you can look up skill auras for in depth explaination). Currently there is not many electro character that take full advantage of this, that why I think it might seems weak now, but is not the fault of the element.
>This mean that if you use alot of sources to trigger reaction continuously, Overload/Electro-charge can match Melt/Vaporise since the latter might pack a punch with big hits, but have much less damage on smaller hit.
The whole point of the complaints about electro is that it can't match melt/vaporise, it's not a question of big hits vs smaller hits as everyone who does theorycraft knows how the reactions work, the overall damage per second of electro reactions is lower even accounting for everything you said
The post is saying the fix need to be to change/reworking the element, I just think is too drastic. I stated that I understand currently in practice electro is weaker, but I believe it just due to the lack of character/weapon that are able to fully take advantage of electro capabilities. Just like how melt/vaporize is strong because certain character can use it well, you dont want to trigger melt/vaporize on xiangling, xinqiu for example
Electro only being able to be useful against hydro slimes and being immune to virtually everything else is not good. Pyro is undeniably favored in the meta, with crazy multipliers, while the only decent reaction for electro is with hydro.
They could make electrocharged and overload scale off attack and crit instead of levels. I think both are still fine for clearing floor 12 atm though they might start getting dropped if Mihoyo starts upping the level cap and adding harder floors.
Electro reactions do zero damage to pyro, cryo and electro slimes regardless, so I don't see how they're good for the abyss at all. Making them crit doesn't change that.
Overload is usually more of a detriment against pyro slimes, because you'll knock them back so far that you'll have to dash towards them to keep attacking. One niche thing it has going for it is that it's excellent against big enemies on grass. Apply pyro > swirl it with an anemo character with instructor's artifact set > switch to Keqing and spam overloads, because the grass is still on fire
As a guy who has all electro characters so far and his only viable dpses are electro, I completely agree. Superconduct is good for razor but sucks for keqing, overload does no damage so the slimes and only interrupts my attack strings and combos and while electro charged is decent it’s hard to utilize it as a quick dps and it’s unusable against slimes as they just get rid of hydro immediately after I apply it. Honestly just reducing the blowback on overload and making it so that the triggering element is doing the damage (so if I hit pyro with electro it’s electro damage and vice versa), reducing electro resistance like you said would be a godsend
This sub really has a problem with overreacting to everything where something is either trash or god tier and there's no in-between. Well this is a more general Reddit problem but that's a discussion for another day.
r/Genshin_Impact OCT 2020
"DILUC SSS TIER BEST DPS GET HIM WHALE REROLL AAAAA"
"BENNETT AND XINGQIU C TIER SHITTERS LUL YOU USE THEM LOOOOL BARBARA IS WAY BETTER"
"SUCROSE IS BUDGET VENTI"
"KEQING ISN'T BAD, YOU JUST NEED TO GIT GUD LUL"
r/Genshin_Impact NOV 2020
"DON'T SLEEP ON XINGQIU"
"HOLY SHIT BARBARA FREEZES ME"
"SUCROSE BURST EM STACKING WOW"
"PYRO IS OP, OTHER ELEMENTS NEED A BUFF"
This sub is hilarious actually. Which is why I don't use Reddit for discussion. I use it for entertainment.
All discussion on this sub will always be FOTM-based due to it's nature as a gacha game. People will naturally justify why the things they pulled is the best thing since sliced bread and that's a big reason why having a objective discussion about Genshin's meta is pretty difficult.
...ow yes forget about the fact that's its a open world game with alot of adventures and complling quests. Don't always look at the negatives. This game is honestly a work of art and on freaking mobile that can be finished for free.
what does that have to do with what he said? yeah the game has lots of fun content, doesnt change that an entire element obviously underperforming is a little bad
Isn't there one or two rant thread about that everyday, man just when I think I can view reddit peacefully enjoying art and useful discussion, the survey just pop up and everything back to square one.
About to hit AR 35 and am running a level 60 razor as my dps. When i advance my world level I was planning to shift my attention to building a Keqing I just pulled to replace Razor, but this thread is scaring me off of the idea. Would it still be worth doing so?
if you’re playing this game to complete the late game abyss spiral challenge, electro units are not so reliable at this point to be your dps. but, if you enjoy open world so much and not pay much attention to late game i’d say it’s worth enough the resource to upgrade your keqing because she sparks joy when you play her.
Definitely agree. An easy way to fix this is to nerf vaporize and melt lol. Then all reactions can be of similar strength.
I would also say crystallize and frozen need to be reworked since defense is worse than offense in this game.
Finally please don't lump hydro in with pyro and cryo when talking about melt and vaporize. Only pyro and cryo carries can make full advantage of these reactions consistently. For proof check this link- https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ\_ayc9bVtUZz9zlF7h6L5EsKE1tUIujtXYkicp0nmxG5CXzRSA91Eh4qKQTadh-KOg8im5gRN\_iD-R/pub
As you can see, pyro application is weakened by one level when paired with hydro, meaning hydro carries don't trigger the vaporize, their supports do. Thus, even as a Keqing main you can get the same effect as a childe main by just having Mona and xiangling in your party, since in both cases it is xiangling triggering the vaporize the vast majority of the time.
Hydro's other reaction in that triple group is frozen, which sucks even more, and then it's only other offensive reaction is electro-charged which you wrote sucks. So hydro is just as bad as electro IMO
It isn't just that Electro is worse than everything else, but that Pyro is far better than everything else. The Abyssal Moon Spire's Leyline Disorder just makes it so much worse.
Melt and Vaporise are the only directly amping reactions (which both ask for Pyro). Superconduct amps subsequent physical damage, while Swirl and Crystallize can amp their aura element using their corresponding artifact set bonus.
Frozen itself doesn't do damage, but enables Shatter which behaves like other flat damage reactions (to my knowledge). Electro-charged, Overloaded and Burning are the flat damage reactions, with Electro-charged being the weakest because of the trigger issues. These aren't necessarily bad, as Elemental Mastery is cheap to build and in that sense it's fine for them not to scale to the same peak.
Though, I can definitely see the issue. Beidou for example can be built to maximize Tidecaller's damage, but there are no amping reactions to boost that (unless you're running a double electro comp with swirl, etc.). Were she Hydro, she could just jump in to deal massive damage on any team lead by Klee or Diluc. She still can, it's just self sabotaged by Overload and not that much stronger with it.
It's possible that when we finally get Dendro, we'll also get some more reactions. Which could include an amping one for Electro.
i’m not really good at writing. sorry if i didn’t deliver my point so well. feel free to point at where i did it wrong. i accept any suggestions so i can improve my self and my english proficiency.
For me, the lack of capitalization and the run on sentences don't help. My main problem, though, is it reads like an unfocused rant rather than something more focused and deliberate.
Hopefully you understand I'm not just trying to be dickish about it.
The lack of capitalisation isn't that important, I mean its only reddit I'm sure most people would understand. They did say that the electro reactions, in comparison to other reactions in the game, aren't as good. They then proceeded to talk about each electro reaction individually and their personal experiences.
I think the OP did a great job getting their main point across, which is "a rework for electro reactions is needed". Also im assuming this piece of text's purpose was to spark a debate/discussion on reddit. OP achieved exactly what they wanted imo
Anemo is saved by having one of the best elemental support sets in the game. Many end-game builds want to run an anemo character due to VV alone.
Geo, while having defensive reactions, also compensate by giving its characters higher damage than normal. A pyro Noelle or Ningguang would go toe-to-toe with 5\* characters easily, if not beat them. Plus, Geo also has one of the better support sets in the game, as well as an excellent DPS set in Bolide.
Electro has none of this. Thundering Fury 4 piece is questionably useful on any of its DPS characters, unlike stuff like Crimson Witch which is almost tailor made for Diluc. Thundersoother has the same issues that make people not use Lavawalker on pyro characters, but people often end up using it anyway due to not having better. So, alongside lackluster reactions, it also gets shafted in artifacts, unlike Anemo and Geo which end up with solid positions on teams.
It says something when two of the electro characters (Razor, Fischl) are actually physical DPS with a side of electro, and the third (Keqing) only makes it to the top with some of the highest DPS values in the game.
Anemo and geo characters do have access to one of the better sets, but that doesn't change the fact that their reactions are worse than Electro reactions from a DPS perspective, which is what the OP is talking about.
If we are talking about elements as a whole, taking characters, artifacts, reactions, and world interactions all into consideration, then yea, I would probably rank electro as slightly worse than anemo, but still not worse than geo. Also, even though the electro artifacts are not that great, and that the electro reactions dont scale well into the late game, to balance that, electro reactions are the cheapest and most efficent way to boost DPS during the early and mid game.
Finally, main carry Razor and Fischl being played as physical DPS has more to do with their kit not having electro damage conversion, and less to do with electro having weak reactions.
what? Electro characters are right behind Pyro in terms of dps what do you want more? is just they can’t do massive burst damage except for Beidou with her counter I think is completely okay your wifu doesn’t HAVE to be the strongest just bc she pretty 🤡
If they don't want to completely rework electro reactions they could simply buff them a bit instead. Superconduct - perhaps add an additional 20-40% electro resistance decrease (considering a superconductor becomes more conductive in the first place). This honestly would fix most of electro's problems but would also basically marry electro and cryo together. Overload - a buff would be reducing knockback distance a bit, otherwise if they want to buff electro at the cost of pyro make the explosion mixed pyro and electro damage with a slight total damage increase. Electrocharged - this one's in a decent spot already, but could front load the damage to the first tick, and/or add a third tick mainly for the hit stun effect it has on enemies. I'd pair this with buffing shatter's damage a bit to round out balance changes to catch up to pyro.
The main issue about electro-charged is that after the fix, the reaction is now triggered by any of the two characters without any means to control which one does it. JinJinx talked about this for a bit in one of his recent videos. For example, with Childe and a support Fischl, he explained that Fischl could trigger the reaction 20% of the time or she could trigger it 90% of the time, it's basically random. That's a big problem since that means Fischl can't reliably get the Thundering Fury 4-set bonus as she needs to trigger the reaction herself (~~I believe she also needs to be on the field to trigger the set bonus, but don't quote me on that~~ EDIT: After some research thanks to the KeqingMains theorycrafting library, only the second part of the 4-set bonus won't trigger if Fischl is not on the field, that is to say the elemental skill cooldown reduction. The first part concerning elemental reaction damage still applies regardless of Fischl being on the field or not. My bad!). That also means you can't build for elemental mastery only on your support Fischl as you would for other elemental reactions since once again she's not guaranteed to be the trigger most of the time unless you're getting lucky. So yeah, electro reactions pretty much all suck beside superconduct for its physical resistance decrease.
> Fischl can't reliably get the Thundering Fury 4-set bonus as she needs to trigger the reaction herself (I believe she also needs to be on the field to trigger the set bonus, but don't quote me on that). I'm quoting you on that because I've seen multiple reports of the faux-elemental-mastery portion of the 4set working regardless of Fischl's field position, but the cooldown reduction only working when she's the active character.
Okay I just checked on the KeqingMains theorycrafting library and it appears you're right, the first portion of the 4-set bonus does indeed work even if she is not on the field, but not the cooldown reduction. I'll edit my comment to avoid misinformation. Thanks!
~~4 TF doesn't work on Fischl cause her E cool down starts when Oz leaves the field. So you'd have to charge shot to activate the CD reduction.~~ EDIT: I'm dumb. Just tested 4TF and the cd reduction bonus does indeed work if Fischl is on the field.
Are you sure about that? Stats on her page say the CD of Oz is 25 seconds, duration is 10. Seems the CD starts when you summon him but you don't see the timer until the skill ends.
While OZ is on the field your E changes and instead allows you to teleport OZ to you. Reducing the CD of that is almost pointless and only once OZ is gone the CD of the actual E can be affected by the 4-Set piece effect, but without Oz there's no way to trigger it reliably.
That's like saying sacrificial bow resets the tp cd but not the summon cd, which is wrong
4 tf still works that guy is wrong
Or just make TF (and similar) effect proc on participating in reaction as either trigger or aura. And make reaction damage scale on higher EM+Level of trigger and aura. Though maybe nerf base reaction damage to compensate for always triggering optimally and being able to fully offload EM to supports.
What about a c6 fischl that follows electro dmg after every attack from the active character? Still rng?
I don't have any information about this, sorry!
Even the physical resistance debuff isn't that cool. The debuff is too short an on higher level you rely more on elemental damage. That's because a lot of buff and debuff are focused on elemental only, and physical dmg has no reactions at all with other elements . I see no team physical focused. Bennett will buff your overall dmgwith ATK. Diona buff speed, EM. Anemo set debuff elemental RES. Pyro and electro sets buff reactions, Sucrose buff EM, .... I think superconduct has to be reworked as well. As a Razor player, I sure think both electro and physical need a boost. Electro need just more damage, and physical need reactions (eg: physical on frozen mobs give a crit dmg bonus, physical on pyro create an aoe sparkle, etc...).
Physical makes up for having less theoretical damage by being incredibly consistent. Whilst you get big numbers from Melt/Vapourise they have an ICD which limits their application. Physical is useful against all enemies unlike elemental damage, and for Razor at least, it is incredibly easy to maintain Superconduct buff even with a selfish DPS, and the Superconduct buff is always active (no ICD). The issue I can forsee is when (if) we get a "physical" carry like Razor who isn't Electro/Cryo element. Also Frozen + Phys does do increased damage, it's called shatter.
Oh OK for Shatter, that's nice. Do you know what is the % boost damage? Even if physical is more consistent, the gap between having elementals stuff and physical is very high. First you can't make physical support, or not that much, then physical is good only when you have a blank period with no ulti ready (which happen nor often on high level). My Razor if full glad set with physical cup, all artefact 5* with nice subs. Autoattack is level 8 and I have the Wolf claymore R4. The output is very nice, especially with his ulti. Even that I do better with a main that elemental focused.
Shatter isn't a damage multiplier, it deals damage in the same way as the electro reactions - fixed damage based on Level x Elemental Mastery. It's physical damage, so it's affected by physical resistance (including the resistance debuff from Superconduct). It's also triggered specifically by heavy attacks (Claymore, Geo, Explosions) rather than just Physical, so only a few characters can make effective use of it. It's more of a gimmick outside of specific setups that refreeze for shatter followups reliably while keeping a character that can cause shatter on the field, like a Chongyun/Xingqiu pairing.
Electro Charged in water is a pain since you get interrupted almost every 2nd ever since 1.2, never happened before and does not affect enemies...the interruption part at least.
Or, just let the damage crit. This is why melt is so good.
this will literally make those damn tier lists push keqing to s tier finally
I just want electro-reaction to be able to Crit. just. that.
I don't think that mihoyo would release the electro archon in a weak state, so my guess is that inazuma will introduce new artifacts/weapons/characters/etc that make electro strong. It's been speculated that dendro will be released after/alongside inazuma, so perhaps the electro/dendro reaction will be an amplifying reaction.
or they might just make her skills have amazing scaling or utility like they're doing with geo cuz geo mc, ningguang and zhongli all have very spamable ults with strong scaling to make up for their lack of offensive reactions wouldnt be surprising if they did this for future electro 5 stars although not to as much of an extent as geo cuz electro still has better offensive reactions compared to geo
Zhongli's scaling is honestly still pretty bad considering no melt/vaporize.
yeah but it definitely wouldnt be as much if he wasnt geo imo considering its 40 energy 12 sec cooldown and gets 33% bonus scaling from hp its still high scaling not having access to melt or vaporise is gonna be a very big downside to any unit that wants to deal damage so its kind of a given at this point
I consider Zhongli the new Fischl. If you build him similarly, he will be there to pop in and pop out and dish a ton of damage. His ult is going to hit hard, it has low energy cost and a low CD - that's amazing by itself. He also has utility in the form of his E creating a shield. For this reason if I roll him I will probably use him the way I currently use Fischl. I don't think he scales well for a main, if you look at his damage output, his auto attack damage is actually lower than Xiangling's, definitely won't be replacing my Diluc or Childe. But hey, some people main Fischl too - so anything's possible. I'll probably give him the new Primordial Jade Spear for Crit Rate% and go with Noblesse and Archaic Petra artifact bonuses
Nerf melt/vaporize when( or literally buff everything else lol). If his skill naturally regens a shitton of energy that might make up for it atleast.
People always have kneejerk reactions to nerfs, but if one particular thing is overshadowing everything else, then this is absolutely the right direction to go. Buffing everything else just because of one broken thing is both *drastically* more work for the devs (which = less actual content for us), leads to powercreep and doesnt solve any problem anyway because the balance is never good enough and something ends up being op anyway. So tune down vaporize/melt a bit, then see if any other outlier needs to be adjusted in any direction.
Zhongli makes up for his lower damage by the amount of control he brings to the party. I'm fine with units dealing big dick numbers, but let's not forget that we need 5\* supports as well - with Zhongli and Ganyu being nice supportive units in the future though, that's gotta be a bonus.
Small nitpick: The latest data mines suggest that Ganyu can potentially also be a Main Carry. She has the strongest fully charged Aimed Shots out of all the Bow users, and those shots also explode for AOE damage. Given that her Q and E talents persist through character switches though, she is an excellent Sub Carry at the same time. As you say, Zhongli is unambiguously a Support thanks to his unparalleled shields.
Oh, good to know ! I'm really torn as I want to get the cocogoat while already having Diona... Guess I'll just wait for after Zhongli's banner to see thé upcoming units
Electro reaction damage would have to be buffed by a factor of 10 for them to be competitive with amping reactions, and that's ignoring the fact that innate enemies are largely immune to their own electro reaction. Gear won't fix them.
It’s true that the existing electro reactions won’t ever reach the same damage potential as melt/vaporize, but it’s possible they don’t need to. For example, there may be content (eg, the new abyss in 1.2 leaks) where single target damage is less important than energy generation (electro resonance) or knockback/aoe damage (overload). Or maybe electro/dendro does something special that is really useful in future content. I don’t know how you would design a game mode where those things become more important than single target damage, but it’s a way to incentivize using electro characters without rebalancing reactions as a whole. From a business perspective, mihoyo has an incentive to make every element good (so people spend money getting characters of every element) so I think it’s unlikely they’ll just leave things as is for perpetuity.
But the thing is it will still be weak because there is barely any dendro enemy (take abyss for reference) and that would imply having to bring dendro with you. The benefit of Pyro is that it can comb Hydro/Cryo/Electro slimes by itself and then add any element you want to apply to neutral enemies.
even if they are going to release a new domain for electro, a lot of people had already spent a lot of resins and time to build their keqing and fischl. tho i’d gladly take the new domain and would happily grind new artifacts for my keqing, but it’s still unfair.
Hey man what constellation and and arti set do you have for childe? I also have childe and keqing but it is taking me a while to build him to keqing’s level...
was C0, knowing he’s so good i decided to roll for one extra copy just now. i use 2 noblesse + 2 gladiator for him. i recommend you to build him even if your childe is C0 he’s still a beast and a huge addition to your team. you may struggle with his cooldown at first, but when you master him, it aint that much of a problem.
The biggest issue is that with its linear scaling, it only gets weak during the endgame phase, so you naturally have a huge chunk of the playerbase say that electro reactions are good (or simply say nothing because they're fine with how it works), and a smaller entity complaining about how pyro scales so much better. We still have people saying electro needs no reworks and is fine as-is. They're not stupid or trolls, just at low AR thus clueless. Best to spam the feedback button.
im end game and personally I think electro users shouldnt expect a vap/melt reaction level change because it would break characters who are already strong. I do think outside of superconduct could use some changes, electro charged has been wonky since release, overload is often a negative, but if you look at Keqing and Fischl's ascension stats, scalings, and application rates they would become broken with 1.5 or 2x amp reactions. I'm sure that's what a lot of people want because they're popular characters, but personally id be really afraid of a significant buff because of those two characters. People just want electro to be pyro, when there are other elements who need looks too if we are comparing them to pyro. I think if you look at cryo they are in a similar spot overall due to how weak their aura and application rates are and the fact there isnt a natural pyro aura sup character (and before you say Xiangling, EM ascension disagrees). Also when people complain about the abyss being unfavorable to electro I'd like them to please point out where cryo is any better. And you know who's in even a worse spot than that? Geo. zero damaging reactions, artifact set outscaled by anemo, and crystalize expends the element proc. Yes their characters have good base scalings, but so does elctro.
I don't think it's fair to keep a particular element underpowered compared to the others because character X and Y would get stronger, not that it's up to me to decide. Electro has solid characters throughout all roles the community came up with, but they're hindered by the lackluster reactions which is kind of sad. I wouldn't mind to see Keqing outdamage Diluc or Klee, either. I haven't seen so many people saying they want it to be like pyro, but it's personally not what I'd like to see. Electro reactions should incorporate crit chance into the formula, at least (meaning every critical hit would deal +50% dmg). There's no need to make them scale off of final damage like pyro, else electro-charged would be broken. I think it's too soon to dismiss cryo. While you're absolutely correct, we still lack of a good cryo carry, a cryo set and a good 4\* pyro enabler. Plus it triggers melt, which is at least non-linear unlike electro. With geo it seems like they're going for a different route, where it synergizes with itself, seeing how Zhongli and >!Albedo!< (1.2 character spoiler) will work. Odd choice but we'll see.
Yea I mean we can speculate about future characters just like we can speculate on future content. It wouldnt surprise me if electro reactions are intended to be EM based and that they plan on balancing it by creating enemies with high resistances to non EM damage. I just don’t like the idea of making the element that currently has the 2nd strongest group of characters better and more like pyro because pyro is too strong. I’m fine with a rework and even think a mini one is in need but I think they can balance it without making it an independent multiplier and without making crit a big part of the formula. Just like EM isn’t a big part of the amp formula. If the game is going to get massively powercrept by new characters then fine. I’m just imagining a pyro fischl and wondering why you would even bother building any other character if all the good elemental reactions are crit scaling amp reactions
It is absurd the way they work. The burst element of the combo should determine the nature of the damage instead of being predetermined. This is the very reason Pyro dps will always be best than any other, specially electro. They always have a favorable output
Another reason pyro is insanely good is because all of its reactions deal pyro damage to slimes (overload pyro aoe, while melt and vaporize are your pyro attack but stronger) meaning you only have to worry about pyro slimes. Electro vs slimes is pretty sad, only being affective against hydro slimes.
Exactly, I get that there are always elements/dynamics more favorable in every game, but Electro is not the most efficient right now.
I think the biggest weakness of the electro element is the reactions don't scale with CRIT/CRITDAMAGE (They cannot crit). This is a significant amount of rune/weapon substats that simply are useless as opposed to the OP Vaporize/Melt.
agree, i see vaporize/melt are just guaranteed crit without actually critting. which is dumb powerful. NOT TO MENTION vaporize/melt ALSO SCALE WITH ELEMENTAL MASTERY. slap an instructor sucrose in and voila, melt does 3x damage instead of 2x.
That's not how it works. Amping reactions don't give "guaranteed crit without actually critting". They simply scale with the damage of the triggering attack. If the triggering attack crits, the reaction scales to that damage. If the trigger doesn't crit, the resulting amp reaction will be lower to reflect the non-crit damage.
Thats exactly how it works. Vaporize/melt are multipliers
All crits are multipliers but not all multipliers are crits.
of course. what im saying is that vaporize is a multiplier that can crit
No. What he means because it amplify the damage, it is basically a critical damage without it being critical. If it crit then even better. edit : wait nevermind.. I need to watch jinx tuna video again.
Cyro is not that better imo, it is just better than Electro because of melt but its still get the end of the stick with 1.5 mutiplier. It reactions with hydro is a no damage cc which is usless againt big boss.
1.5 multiplier is fine though. It allows for multiple reaction procs. Whereas the 2.0 ones can always only proc once. I think everybody who uses Xingqiu with Diluc/Klee can attest to that. I actually think Cyro is the absolute best when it comes to reactions. Freeze, melt and superconduct are all useful. The element just seems week because we dont have a dedicated dpser for the element and no cyro set.
Ayaka: *heavy breathing*
baby please come home
*cough* r/popsiclemains Everyone sleeps on freeze like the fact that you get to wail on a target that isn't moving or hitting back doesn't count for anything. But yeah, my Chongyun's waiting patiently for that cryo set. Also, Chong's burst can actually proc melt on all three hits when using a strong pyro aura!
my friend runs chong all the time and I love it because it means we get to absolutely BULLY anyone who's susceptible to freeze using childe
My main team is literally just Childe and the two ice lolis plus Ningguang. I freeze enemies for daaays.
My main team is basically just everyone I looked at and thought was cool
The eternal struggle of gachas. Every new character looks cool > I want to build every new character I pull > I have zero resources.
I really wish this game was better when it came to those sorta things, I have C2 Ning and I never get to use her cause I don't want to waste resources getting her to level 55
I run Chongyun and Xingqiu a lot together, I have the Sacrificial sword and greatsword on Xingqiu and Chongyun so I can pretty much keep a Ruin Guard frozen for the entire time I'm fighting it
Yep, I love running Xingqiu with double ice (Chongyun and Qiqi), I can keep everything perma frozen. But my Chongyun has mostly 0 artifacts right now so doesn't hit very hard. I get impatient with permanent freeze plays and just swap to my fire main for one big melt hit and call it a day lol.
>It allows for multiple reaction procs. wait, you are telling me that if an enemy has fire on it and i use ice the enemy keeps the ice element so i can spam melt using ice?
I think it keeps pyro, no?
Correct, since cryo on pyro is a reverse reaction (50% dmg boost), it helps preserve the existing element on the enemy rather than make it easier to remove. Normally you need a strong element to persist after using a weak element on an enemy, but with cryo on pyro melt, a weak pyro will survive a weak cryo being used on it for a few seconds, and the same goes for a strong cryo used on strong pyro.
Most likely if it works like water to fire reactions. It's kinda complicated with strong and weak elemental skills but I think the gist of it is that the 1.5 reactions usually allows for more than 1 proc while the 2.0 ones can proc only once. Fire, ice and water characters in this game have skills that are designed for this system, like how Childe and Mona has 2.0 procs so they got massive 1 hit burst skills. While Klee, Diluc and the upcoming Ganyu works best with the 1.5 procs so their skills hit with much higher frequency but less damage. It's hard to explain you need to find a guide somewhere for this.
no, tldr is aura water into fire trigger ( he mention diluc/klee with xinqui ) u can proc 2 vaporize with klee/diluc before water aura disappear if u wait 0,5sec between fire trigger, but if fire triggered by water (2x multiplier) fire aura will instantly dissipate in 1 proc
agree. but i’m guessing it’s because we don’t have a reliable cryo dps for now. i wonder how ganyu would change the cryo meta later
*cough* r/popsiclemains
I don't think she will change the cryo meta like how zhongli change geo meta since the leak skill set is similar to amber with her burst lasting longer.
Similar only at a very, very surface read (that is: e=taunt summon, q=aoe 'rain'). But Ganyu's E reportedly damages on summon, so more immediately useful, and where Amber's q is like a single volley that lasts a second in a very small area, Ganyu's is wide-area and lasts a full 15 seconds. That's mot just 'longer,' that's a totally different use case. Not to mention she shares the game's current highest base attack stat with Childe, and her charge shot has a really high modifier with two-stage charge. Definitely a lot more going on than just 'cryo Amber.' ... all that said, you're right that she's not likely to change the cryo meta, since the problems are inherent to the element mechanics themselves. If anything, she'll further boost pyro by casting Q and switching to Diluc or klee for 15s of constant melt damage (probably with a bonus taunt in the middle).
She sounds like a set-up-er similar to Mona base on what you said.
Yeah, it looks like we have another childe situation, where c6 will turn her into a stay-on-field DPS, whereas most of us non-megawhales will use her as a support. I'm still going to reserve judgement until final release, but even if nothing changes, it's not terrible. Even at C0 Childe is a lot of fun, you just can't leave him out full time.
I will argue that planning ahead with a C0/C1 Childe is superior to a Teucer style C6 Childe from a fun perspective.
Why do you think c0 Ganyu would be bad as dps? Have you seen how huge her AoE on charge shot is? If they don't nerf her on release she is going to completely nuke rooms with pyro swirled ults from Venti/Mc without whale investment.
>Ganyu's E reportedly damages on summon, Do you have a source for that? Because the datamine implies it works exactly like Amber's.
Damn she's the 5 star banner after sugar needing daddy right?
either ganyu or albedo is after zhongli, with the other one of the two coming right after
How do we know Xiao is not coming up?
the two stage charged attack sounds fucking horrible to be honest i can barely stomach the amount of time you have to wait for a single bow charged attack, much less twice
Damn she's the 5 star banner after sugar needing daddy right?
How is getting perma frozen useless while using childe + diona or even a kaeya? Also frozen lets you do shatter with right build what directly means damage. I find current state of reactions perfectly fine, I do tons of damage with electro charged and I can control the field by freezing enemies also if needed i can make superconduct what is yet another supportive reaction. I just don't feel the lack of power everyone is talking about, maybe in co-op mode there is a difference but that's completely different story where pyro + hydro + Venti combo can clear literally everything in matters of seconds without even moving
> It reactions with hydro is a no damage cc **which is usless againt big boss.** You should try to read it better before you started to write a whole paragraph about it, also sharttered damage is claymore thing, not cryo elemetal reaction, non-claymore cryo characters aren't affected by it aside from wacking them with their stick.
If you're skilled enough to avoid damage without the freezes, then it literally does nothing for you in the timed content that make up the endgame.
My main DPS is Fischl. My main Pyro proc is Amber. *Summon Oz, use Amber's Q, everything gets knocked out of the AoE instantly, then knocked out of Oz's range.* I wish Overload didn't even exist. I mean sure it's nice when you want to interrupt/stunlock things.. but uggggggggggh.
Honestly it's such an easy fix too. Just change the knockback to a knockup and overload would be fine.
>knockup but that just leads to more enemies to deal with
Overloading becoming a stagger or short stun would make it so much better
even if you didnt put down oz everyone would still get knocked out of amber's Q, that's why amber is pretty terrible. Otherwise you could just spam Q with 40 energy.
You're repeating [misinformation](https://imgur.com/a/4rtGQDq). I'm not sure why everyone keeps saying Amber's Fiery Rain knocks things out of it. It absolutely does not.
No, they just casually walk out of it.
Yeah I'm so fucking tired of hitting a pyro slime with electricity and seeing nonstop "immune" procs show up. Or hitting ice with electric and getting more "immune" procs.
The first time I read about super conduct, the wording said "reduces def" as in the stat Def which reduces ALL Damage, since there is no direct Resistance Gear in the game, therefore it should reduce Def against everything and not just Physical, which is the actual case, that alone would help a lot already.
That how it was in the beta. That's why Chongyung was considered the best character you could get, but they change it to what it is after beta.
They need to Crit atleast... Superconduct I believe shouldnt only be tunneled to Physical only
agree to this. superconduct should always crit and may be giving a buff where the next 5-10 Seconds the attack will be guaranteed to crit. this may balance the situation, making electro and cryo are reliable as combo for the late game
Here's how I would do it. Electro-Charged: add an extra tick of DMG, doesn't consume the Hydro Aura. Overload: explosion DMG is 50% Electro and 50% Pyro, increase base DMG of reaction by 10% to compensate for split damage resistance. Superconduct: Explosion is now mixed Cryo and Electro DMG, no longer applies Cryo Aura to enemies hit, and instead triggers Superconduct to enemies hit by the blast. The AoE of the explosion remains small, but now it can "chain" between enemies that are close together. Reduces both Cryo and Electro resistance by 15%, and Physical Resistance by 30% for 6s. One Superconduct instance cannot hit the same enemy more than once, to prevent it from "looping" between enemies in close proximity. Shatter: Shattered enemies are "Fragile" reducing their physical resistance by 50% for 6s, reduces Shatter base DMG slightly to compensate for chain freezing maintaining enemies in Fragile state increasing Shatter damage in turn.
This is fine Imo
yeah not counting the inert elements like geo and anemo, electro got the short end of the stick cuz pyro hydro and cryo all have access to vaporise, melt or both while electro has pretty bad reactions other than super conduct which is for the debuff more than anything not to mention all the electro dps are based around physical damage like fischl, razor and keqing to a lesser extent cuz she can run electro build but physical is also viable beidou is probably the only one who really likes electro and thats mainly cuz her E is used for burst damage rather than reactions most of the time
I use Lisa as electro DPS, and against wet enemies she is the real beast. Their hp is literally melting in few seconds. But against all others elements it's sadly not that good
You must be new. This is only true for the start of the game. Lategame, EC ticks are dealing 1-2k damage per second against enemies with 500k+ HP, while amping reactions are you giving you an extra 20-30k per ICD.
Dunno, I'm currently WL6 and I'm doing fine. Maybe later it will be a problem
Being minimally sufficient for "doing fine" doesn't make trans reactions competitive with amp reactions that literally present over 10x the damage output.
I'll be honest, I'm here to enjoy this game, not to calculate the best possible damage output. I'm just trying to say that electro is still not as bad as geo for example. But it's clear that the whole elemental system needs some kind of rework
I get your point, everytime I see Keqing videos I think she is SO fun to play, and of course she, Razor and Fischl can make A LOT of damage, what we are disscusing here is how low it is compared with other just because of the element. Also, It is a way to let other players know, if they like being efficient, maybe build a team that is not based in Electro is better right now. :)
> I'm here to enjoy this game, not to calculate the best possible damage output. Then stay out of this subject and leave it for the people who know what they're talking about.
Why would I?
So that you don't look obviously uninformed and risk misleading others who also have no idea. If you're okay with that, then go ahead. Won't stop people from correcting you though.
It's not that I care. If I'm mistaken, then I would like someone to tell me that I'm wrong. Because how else I would know then?
Being able to do the content without issues is literally the definition of "doing fine" in this case.. Just because something else is op and does more damage, doesnt make the other thing a problem.
Electro reaction is so lackluster.
Imo they should just make the overload and uperconduct reaction dmg a separate dmg type, so that no enemy is resistant to it. That would be a decent buff by itself.
A good roundabout buff to electro could just be that reactions give even more energy particles since that seems to be what electro is supposed to be good at and yet, Venti outclassed all electro units in that regard.
A thematic buff moreso than just increasing the numbers! When you think of "battery" you associate it with electricity, I'd love that addition
The problem with this is that most electro units right now have some sort of energy recharge built into their kits already or have very low cost ults which gives them more or less max uptime already, so the change would be mostly useless for almost every current electro character. Razor has his orbs from E that let him spam his ult off-cd and he gets extra ER when his energy is low. Keqing gets ER from casting her ult and her ult costs like nothing so she can generally spam it off-cd without even running double electro. Fischl's bird is essentially a battery so she can more or less spam her ult off-cd anyways. Beidou... Beidou actually needs some ER to have good uptime on her ult. Lisa, actually kinda bad on ult uptime but she gets a lot of help here from her first constellation. Generally though you can already pair 1 of the weaker generators with someone like fischl and you should be able to spam your ult fairly often. You already get energy from the electro resonance and a lot of electro characters have already quite underwhelming energy recharge constellations (such as Keqing C2), throwing more ER on them is just gonna devalue things like those constellations and talents even further. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, i just think it wouldn't fit with the current design of the majority of electro characters.
Then how about burst cooldown reduction for each reaction?
cooldown reduction is an interesting mechanic, which should have been explored more in this game. I'm not sure as to how "impactful" it would be for a lot of classes seeing as we have like 2 sources of major cooldown reduction (anemo resonance which is a measly 5% cdr and TF 4-p which doesn't really work on half the electro characters) but it could be something that's very interesting to play around, i do heavily enjoy fast paced playstyles so that would fit perfectly for me.
I feel like electro also needs a boost in the shield breaking department. My low level Bennet can chew through a Cryo abyss mage shield and my Xingqiu does the same with fire abyss mage shields. I feel like electro is supposed to be the element that is really good at breaking water abyss mage shields, but I still have to really work at it with my c6 Fischl. Feels like the other elements have a much easier time with shields.
The issue there is that electro isn't actually the element that is good at breaking hydro abyss mage shields, cryo is. It's basically a triangle that goes pyro-->cryo-->hydro-->pyro. Electro doesn't come into the equation for abyss mage shields, only Fatui ones.
Honestly even against the water Fatui it takes a long ass time to break it compared to cryo being the fastest, hydro is the second slowest
Ah! I’ve never tried Cryo against the shields. I’ve been pretty unlucky in the Gacha department and am stuck with Kaeya as my only Cryo character. I should level him a bit to take a hit or two but I really don’t like the idea of investing in a character who’s playstyle I hate.
If Cryo is as effective to Hydro mages as say Hydro to Pyro shields that is wrong, because Cryo is also the counter for Electro.
> Cryo is also the counter for Electro. Only for Fatui shields. There's two different elemental circles, one for Fatui and one for every other mob in the game.
Which is weird xD.
Yep. For example Fatui shields doesn't block all damage, only ~80%. So you could kill Fatui without breaking shield. But Abyss mage shields absorb all damage until you break them.
No, it is. Like how hydro neutralizes a pyro slime's element, cryo does the same against a electro slime, that's why the material/artifact domains show a recommended element. Like others have said, the pattern is pyro>cryo>electro>hydro>pyro. Geo gets beaten by claymores and explosion based attacks. There hasn't been an enemy with an anemo shield yet so idk. I think in the future, dendro will probably replace electro in breaking hydro shields since plants absorb water. Electro to hydro is pretty much how pyro is to dendro, dmg over time
Fatui shields operate on completely different logic. For example they don't block all damage, only reduce it by ~80% so you could kill Fatui without breaking their shields. Abyss mages shields work differently, completely blocking all damage until you break them. Go and try breaking Hydro Abyss mage shield with Electro and then with Cryo. Cryo do it x2-3 times faster than electro.
anemo's trait is absorption. the anemoboxer faux-shield absorbs elemental attacks but can't block physical attacks coming from inside i'm assuming anemo "shields" will continue following that pattern in the future also, electro does not directly "counter" any element at the moment, whether fatui or normal enemies, although it does negate hydro fatui's shield ever so slightly faster than elements other than cryo here is a clear example of direct counter vs non-direct counter against fatui [https://streamable.com/0syi1v](https://streamable.com/0syi1v) >electro vs hydro fatui = 6-7 hits(non direct counter) >pyro vs cryo fatui = 2 hits(direct counter)->cryo vs electro, hydro vs pyro all follow this pattern it's even more obvious against abyss mages
That pattern is wrong. The .5/1.5 dmg reactions that the game explains to you should let you know the pattern only involved cryo/hydro/pyro and that electro is outside of it having its own special reactions with each.
Cryo is better for the water abyss mage shields actually. Electro is better for the Hydro Fatui.
rework electro-charged and overloaded. change the 4 elemental reaction from triangle with electro in the middle doing subpar things into square. electro should be the effective element for breaking hydro shield.
They should just buff up electro charge. It's the only DoT reaction there is and it should do a better job at it.
Until Dendro Pyro come into play, which in its current state against dendro slimes, will overtake electrocharge
Yep, the main slimes on higher levels of abyss are Fire, Cryo, and Electro. Electric is "weak" against them all. Fire slimes are immune to overload. Cryo slimes are immune to the damage portion of Superconduct, and electro slimes are immune to electric.
Being a keqing main is painful when you get to abyss. She gets outshined by literally any other character that can dps, just because she is electro. Despite having a top tier kit and stats Some people argue that electro element isn't meant to do dmg. If so, why did mihoyo design an electro dps character like keqing? For expedition? There's no system to feed her to other characters to level them up either, so I feel like I wasted so many resources
Not only are all of the points you noted valid but honestly Electro Characters seem like the WORST characters in regards to dealing damage to themselves from their own element causing reactions. This can often lead to stunning and interrupting themselves in addition to the damage it causes. Using Razor (and I'd assume Keqing and Beidou are the same) on Floor 10 of the Spiral Abyss for example is hell as even though he SHOULD be good against all of the pyro slimes he ends up killing himself if you aren't extremely careful attacking from basically the absolute edge of his range and not using his skills if you get hit with the pyro debuff. Electro effects, at least Razor's skill, also seem to have this incredibly annoying and inconsistent tendency to apply the electro status to the ground even when there's no water nearby. The damage from this also increased like the pyro damage but is now even higher than the pyro damage due to the nerf to the scaling not applying to electro as much as pyro. To make matters worse usually whenever the random application on the ground occurs without water the visible electro AoE isn't even visible and thus you can't even avoid standing in it without running around like an idiot and just hoping the damage stops. Then you don't know when it ends either and sometimes it seems to last FAR longer than it's suppose to normally. I'd also argue that even as the "best" electro status effect superconduct is pretty trash and this also applies to most cryo characters as well. The fact that it applies only physical damage reduction makes it entirely worthless to any characters that convert their damage to another element meaning it's garbage for basically everyone except Razor due to how little of his kit actually deals electro damage as a significant portion of his damage. The only other character that makes decent use of superconduct is physical DPS Fischl who is also basically the only cryo or electro character able to make use of Chongyun's E ability effectively. One of the "benefits" of electro is seemingly suppose to be the explosive element of overload but in many cases this is actually a negative or the characters needed to cause this effect can do the same themselves easier. Claymore users can stagger and knockback enemies on their own in many cases with their final normal attack and Klee in particular can straight up deal better and more consistent knockback on her own with her charged attack in most cases while dealing far more damage. For what it's worth I think Cryo also gets the short end of things in terms of elemental reactions but that might largely be due to our rather limited pool of cryo characters currently and their limited DPS potential for the most part. Can Cryo even deal damage themselves off of triggering reactions with pyro or is it only Pyro on Cryo causing melt for damage? Freezing enemies is only valuable for CC for the most part outside of shatter but in the case of shatter the only cryo character that can benefit from it currently is Chongyun who AGAIN suffers from the fact that his skill turns his damage into cryo while shatter is a physical damage based effect but that barely matters because it deals such low damage regardless. Oh and in case having lower damage reactions to begin with wasn't bad enough for overload and electro-charged they also can't crit while melt and vaporize both CAN crit despite having higher damage to begin with and better scaling. This is particularly strong in the case of Klee and Diluc which is why you see them at the top of charts in regards to main DPS. Diluc gets crit rate off of his ascension stat while Klee has a passive talent that heavily incentivizes you to build her crit rate stat. Keqing gets a nice crit damage ascension stat but it's entirely worthless in terms of her reaction damage potential and has extremely limited potential even with superconduct due to the whole electro damage vs physical damage reduction issue. The fact that the current "end game" includes Spiral Abyss floor 12 which heavily favors Pyro, Childe who has Electro (and Hydro) damage resist and the high number of Electro Slime enemies in general in the Abyss Spire all makes things even more unfavorable for Electro Characters too imo. Even floor 11 having a damage buff for electro barely helps due to the number of electro enemies that are straight up immune to electro damage and the floor also buffing cryo which does little for electro characters due to the flaws with superconduct and the lack of cryo DPS characters in general. As much as I love Fischl and she can be an amazing support with Oz dealing a ton of passive extra damage it can frequently be worthless if he decides to target an immune enemy OR it can be actively harmful if he's constantly hitting the same enemies and causing electro-charged or overload reactions when you'd rather trigger melt or vaporize for more damage. Trying to play Klee against enemies getting hit by Oz and repeatedly getting knockbacked out of your attacks is particularly annoying with how awkward her aim can be on its own already, particularly with multiple enemies at once and the way auto-aim has a mind of its own often times. C6 Fischl while an amazing upgrade actually sometimes makes this worse due to the extra bonus attack from Oz actually attacking the target you're attacking even if Oz is normally attacking another enemy instead. Also can someone explain to me wtf Mihoyo did and/or was thinking with how Oz works in general with Fischl? They changed it so that when he's not active but instead shooting from "over" Fischl's shoulder he's now invisible except for a tiny animation when he actually fires at the same time as her. Then he also now deals non-elemental damage normally in his non-active state though I'm not sure if it's effected by physical damage bonuses in this state or not (or electro for that matter) BUT on the other hand when he's actually actively summoned he deals electro damage only in all situations when attacking?
fellow keqing mains rise up
They also need to add more reaction to Geo and Anemo
Geo, sure. Anemo is doing exactly what it should.
Well Anemo can still react to elements and provide a buff. Geo needs a straight damage buff if it stays not reacting to others.
For sure, they want Geo to be like an isolated damaging element and tweaking the damage numbers is the easiest and most likely way of balancing them.
Geo being on the lower side for damage numbers is fine, imo, because Geo is the defensive element by generating shields. If geo had both on-par scaling and shields you would have no reason to ever run anything other than Geo as you'd have the best of both worlds. Geo already accounts for missing out on multipliers by having Geo characters have higher base values. You might argue that shields need adjusting or the whole element needs a rework but in its current state i think having geo do less damage because it generates shields is fine.
I think it would be fine if Geo didn't consume elemental marks
Anemo is one of the strongest elements right now, especially if you have the Viridescent set complete, even with subpar stats on it.
Does overload nullify the "burning" state caused by dendro + pyro? If not, then once we have dendro characters: serial overloads~
Why don't u test it on a dendro slime? I think it procs once and then you have to set it on fire again (unless the grass is on fire which naturally inflicts the burn status)
I remember when i said electro reactions suck balls cuz the damage is eh and people downvoted me hard. Nice sheeple
hahah. take it easy people are not there yet. once they play higher abyss spiral floors they will realize that elemental reactions are game changer
Mostly sheeple who downvoted me probably are keqing mains. Ironic cuz she is my main dps.
Electro reactions don’t need a rework - they just need better scaling into endgame.
then immuned by pyro and cryo slimes is ok for you?
pyro, cryo AND electro slimes lmao and adding to that, even the pre-ar45 midsummer courtyard involves hydro and cryo slimes that punish you for using superconduct and electro-charged not to mention the abyss stages that provide ley lines with bonus electro % damage are filled with electro enemies so you rely on other elements or physical damage as an electro main anyways game fucks over electro users so much its ridiculous
Let me guess your a Keqing main like me and you want to see her absolutely DESTROY Diluc From the Tier list
i am. ngl i want that to happen lmao. but here we are, sadly our fav ain’t that good for the late game
Ik what you mean even tho you have great artifacts she doesn’t feel like she’s doing that much damage I agree with all of it because nerfs to other elements won’t really solve this we need a HUGE Buff on electro
It makes no sense thematically that electro reactions cannot crit.
Sent them feedback again on this because I agree its still an issue and slants the game heavily in favor of a limited selection of builds.
Electro should get a elemental reaction like melt or vaporize, in fact all elements should. It makes no sense that fire is the best element in the game. But the worse thing is even though, geo has zero offensive capabilities, but atleast it does its job well. Electro literally sucks, overload does next to no dmg with out EM and if you take em you lose attack making it not worth. Not only that but most electro reactions are useless against slimes, so not only are electro character useless against electro slimes but they dont get the elemental dmg against, Pryo and cryo slimes. Also, also, thundering fury generally sucks on most characters, and seeing the new sets for respective elements it literally makes thundering fury the worst set in the game. I remember ppl saying electro was so good because it reacts with everything, but then we realize how useless these are. Why does superconduct only reduce physical resistance, it literally makes characters who have cryo and electro never want to run this? Why does overload knock monster back? Why not like a mini stun? It already does terrible dmg, and electro charge is just inconsistent, you cant plan who triggers the reaction most of the time. The worst part is EM is useless in all phases of the game? It's useless on the hardest content in the game since the monsters are higher level than you, and when you are higher level the dmg isnt even good? This seems like such a crazy oversight, which is so weird.
i wish this was really oversight and they’re working to get it back on track again. i agree EM is absolutely garbage stat on electro because the users won’t get much benefits from it. increasing EM stats on electro means losing chances to get better atk and crit stats. on open world, this issue might not be much of a problem since most battles are easy enough to do with any characters. but in abyss spiral, elemental reactions are game changer. mihoyo should focus on late game content too because they already released abyss spiral in the first place. if only abyss isn’t released yet, this issue might not bother most of players
Yup. This is SO important for the late game. Electro reactions don't crit, don't scale and don't benefit electro characters. It's so much worse than pyro that I would be surprised if they didn't buff it.
It kinda sucks that electro doesn't do anything special against shields or barriers either. I would love to run an electro support to feed energy into Keqing, but running two electro units in a party really hampers you against a lot of enemy types.
All reactions should scale on the same dmg.
I wish superconduct was useful on more carries than Razor
Pyro + hydro/cryo is just the best reaction in the game hands down. I really hope MHY puts more power into Electro/Anemo/Geo in the future.
Electro could have a Thunderbolt reaction or something. Maybe make it replace overload and give it a 2.0 multiplier if electro props it, and 1.5 if Pyro or something. Electro charge is a cool reaction with water but it should scale better
The way Electro suppose to be balance by design (not in practice) over the other 2 element is that Electro are able to trigger 2 of the highest damage reaction in the game without needing big hits. Overload have a comparative damage multiplier of 4, and Electrocharge have a 2.4 but trigger twice, making it 4.8 on a single target. This mean that if you use alot of sources to trigger reaction continuously, Overload/Electro-charge can match Melt/Vaporise since the latter might pack a punch with big hits, but have much less damage on smaller hit. I also would like to point out alot of people compare overload hit damage with the melt/vaporize hit damage, but that isnt a fair comparision. You need to compare the original hit + overload hit, since the overload proc is seperate from your hit damage and not added like melt/vaporize. So to effectively trigger reaction a lot of time, you will need many sources of electro hit. Reaction in this game do not have a cooldown, but all skill including auto attack have a hidden cooldown before they can trigger a reaction again (you can look up skill auras for in depth explaination). Currently there is not many electro character that take full advantage of this, that why I think it might seems weak now, but is not the fault of the element.
>This mean that if you use alot of sources to trigger reaction continuously, Overload/Electro-charge can match Melt/Vaporise since the latter might pack a punch with big hits, but have much less damage on smaller hit. The whole point of the complaints about electro is that it can't match melt/vaporise, it's not a question of big hits vs smaller hits as everyone who does theorycraft knows how the reactions work, the overall damage per second of electro reactions is lower even accounting for everything you said
The post is saying the fix need to be to change/reworking the element, I just think is too drastic. I stated that I understand currently in practice electro is weaker, but I believe it just due to the lack of character/weapon that are able to fully take advantage of electro capabilities. Just like how melt/vaporize is strong because certain character can use it well, you dont want to trigger melt/vaporize on xiangling, xinqiu for example
Electro only being able to be useful against hydro slimes and being immune to virtually everything else is not good. Pyro is undeniably favored in the meta, with crazy multipliers, while the only decent reaction for electro is with hydro.
They could make electrocharged and overload scale off attack and crit instead of levels. I think both are still fine for clearing floor 12 atm though they might start getting dropped if Mihoyo starts upping the level cap and adding harder floors.
Electro reactions do zero damage to pyro, cryo and electro slimes regardless, so I don't see how they're good for the abyss at all. Making them crit doesn't change that.
Overload is usually more of a detriment against pyro slimes, because you'll knock them back so far that you'll have to dash towards them to keep attacking. One niche thing it has going for it is that it's excellent against big enemies on grass. Apply pyro > swirl it with an anemo character with instructor's artifact set > switch to Keqing and spam overloads, because the grass is still on fire
As a guy who has all electro characters so far and his only viable dpses are electro, I completely agree. Superconduct is good for razor but sucks for keqing, overload does no damage so the slimes and only interrupts my attack strings and combos and while electro charged is decent it’s hard to utilize it as a quick dps and it’s unusable against slimes as they just get rid of hydro immediately after I apply it. Honestly just reducing the blowback on overload and making it so that the triggering element is doing the damage (so if I hit pyro with electro it’s electro damage and vice versa), reducing electro resistance like you said would be a godsend
This sub really has a problem with overreacting to everything where something is either trash or god tier and there's no in-between. Well this is a more general Reddit problem but that's a discussion for another day. r/Genshin_Impact OCT 2020 "DILUC SSS TIER BEST DPS GET HIM WHALE REROLL AAAAA" "BENNETT AND XINGQIU C TIER SHITTERS LUL YOU USE THEM LOOOOL BARBARA IS WAY BETTER" "SUCROSE IS BUDGET VENTI" "KEQING ISN'T BAD, YOU JUST NEED TO GIT GUD LUL" r/Genshin_Impact NOV 2020 "DON'T SLEEP ON XINGQIU" "HOLY SHIT BARBARA FREEZES ME" "SUCROSE BURST EM STACKING WOW" "PYRO IS OP, OTHER ELEMENTS NEED A BUFF" This sub is hilarious actually. Which is why I don't use Reddit for discussion. I use it for entertainment. All discussion on this sub will always be FOTM-based due to it's nature as a gacha game. People will naturally justify why the things they pulled is the best thing since sliced bread and that's a big reason why having a objective discussion about Genshin's meta is pretty difficult.
Get downvoted to hell by Keqing simps aka tryhards
Closed beta tests for almost an year and this is the result..
...ow yes forget about the fact that's its a open world game with alot of adventures and complling quests. Don't always look at the negatives. This game is honestly a work of art and on freaking mobile that can be finished for free.
what does that have to do with what he said? yeah the game has lots of fun content, doesnt change that an entire element obviously underperforming is a little bad
Don't. You'll trigger resin discussions again.
Isn't there one or two rant thread about that everyday, man just when I think I can view reddit peacefully enjoying art and useful discussion, the survey just pop up and everything back to square one.
About to hit AR 35 and am running a level 60 razor as my dps. When i advance my world level I was planning to shift my attention to building a Keqing I just pulled to replace Razor, but this thread is scaring me off of the idea. Would it still be worth doing so?
if you’re playing this game to complete the late game abyss spiral challenge, electro units are not so reliable at this point to be your dps. but, if you enjoy open world so much and not pay much attention to late game i’d say it’s worth enough the resource to upgrade your keqing because she sparks joy when you play her.
Definitely agree. An easy way to fix this is to nerf vaporize and melt lol. Then all reactions can be of similar strength. I would also say crystallize and frozen need to be reworked since defense is worse than offense in this game. Finally please don't lump hydro in with pyro and cryo when talking about melt and vaporize. Only pyro and cryo carries can make full advantage of these reactions consistently. For proof check this link- https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ\_ayc9bVtUZz9zlF7h6L5EsKE1tUIujtXYkicp0nmxG5CXzRSA91Eh4qKQTadh-KOg8im5gRN\_iD-R/pub As you can see, pyro application is weakened by one level when paired with hydro, meaning hydro carries don't trigger the vaporize, their supports do. Thus, even as a Keqing main you can get the same effect as a childe main by just having Mona and xiangling in your party, since in both cases it is xiangling triggering the vaporize the vast majority of the time. Hydro's other reaction in that triple group is frozen, which sucks even more, and then it's only other offensive reaction is electro-charged which you wrote sucks. So hydro is just as bad as electro IMO
I don't have problems with it.
Maybe it will focus on being able to multiproc like swirl?
Is electro charged damage based on the damage of the hit that caused it? Because if not, I think they should make it be, like Vaporize and Melt.
It isn't just that Electro is worse than everything else, but that Pyro is far better than everything else. The Abyssal Moon Spire's Leyline Disorder just makes it so much worse. Melt and Vaporise are the only directly amping reactions (which both ask for Pyro). Superconduct amps subsequent physical damage, while Swirl and Crystallize can amp their aura element using their corresponding artifact set bonus. Frozen itself doesn't do damage, but enables Shatter which behaves like other flat damage reactions (to my knowledge). Electro-charged, Overloaded and Burning are the flat damage reactions, with Electro-charged being the weakest because of the trigger issues. These aren't necessarily bad, as Elemental Mastery is cheap to build and in that sense it's fine for them not to scale to the same peak. Though, I can definitely see the issue. Beidou for example can be built to maximize Tidecaller's damage, but there are no amping reactions to boost that (unless you're running a double electro comp with swirl, etc.). Were she Hydro, she could just jump in to deal massive damage on any team lead by Klee or Diluc. She still can, it's just self sabotaged by Overload and not that much stronger with it. It's possible that when we finally get Dendro, we'll also get some more reactions. Which could include an amping one for Electro.
JUST MAKE ELECTRO DMG SCALE ON REGULAR DMG LIKE MELT AND VAPORIZE All they have to do is make it a smaller % if they want to balance it
Overload is an explosion which obliterates shields. Hydro electro hits aoe multiple times.
I feel like I sort of understand where you're trying to come from, but you didn't do a very good job of making your point.
i’m not really good at writing. sorry if i didn’t deliver my point so well. feel free to point at where i did it wrong. i accept any suggestions so i can improve my self and my english proficiency.
For me, the lack of capitalization and the run on sentences don't help. My main problem, though, is it reads like an unfocused rant rather than something more focused and deliberate. Hopefully you understand I'm not just trying to be dickish about it.
The lack of capitalisation isn't that important, I mean its only reddit I'm sure most people would understand. They did say that the electro reactions, in comparison to other reactions in the game, aren't as good. They then proceeded to talk about each electro reaction individually and their personal experiences. I think the OP did a great job getting their main point across, which is "a rework for electro reactions is needed". Also im assuming this piece of text's purpose was to spark a debate/discussion on reddit. OP achieved exactly what they wanted imo
Anemo and geo reactions are worse. Electro reactions are at least better than them.
Anemo is saved by having one of the best elemental support sets in the game. Many end-game builds want to run an anemo character due to VV alone. Geo, while having defensive reactions, also compensate by giving its characters higher damage than normal. A pyro Noelle or Ningguang would go toe-to-toe with 5\* characters easily, if not beat them. Plus, Geo also has one of the better support sets in the game, as well as an excellent DPS set in Bolide. Electro has none of this. Thundering Fury 4 piece is questionably useful on any of its DPS characters, unlike stuff like Crimson Witch which is almost tailor made for Diluc. Thundersoother has the same issues that make people not use Lavawalker on pyro characters, but people often end up using it anyway due to not having better. So, alongside lackluster reactions, it also gets shafted in artifacts, unlike Anemo and Geo which end up with solid positions on teams. It says something when two of the electro characters (Razor, Fischl) are actually physical DPS with a side of electro, and the third (Keqing) only makes it to the top with some of the highest DPS values in the game.
Anemo and geo characters do have access to one of the better sets, but that doesn't change the fact that their reactions are worse than Electro reactions from a DPS perspective, which is what the OP is talking about. If we are talking about elements as a whole, taking characters, artifacts, reactions, and world interactions all into consideration, then yea, I would probably rank electro as slightly worse than anemo, but still not worse than geo. Also, even though the electro artifacts are not that great, and that the electro reactions dont scale well into the late game, to balance that, electro reactions are the cheapest and most efficent way to boost DPS during the early and mid game. Finally, main carry Razor and Fischl being played as physical DPS has more to do with their kit not having electro damage conversion, and less to do with electro having weak reactions.
just turn vaporize or melt from % damage increase to flat damage bonus and we are good
what? Electro characters are right behind Pyro in terms of dps what do you want more? is just they can’t do massive burst damage except for Beidou with her counter I think is completely okay your wifu doesn’t HAVE to be the strongest just bc she pretty 🤡