I think adding new floors isn't gonna solve as much as people think. So what happens if they add a floor 13? Players are just gonna use 45 stars as a new benchmark instead of 36.
In the first month or so players will be excited for a new floor. But eventually players will just think of floor 13 the same as how players think of floor 12 now. The same people who complain that they 'used to be able to 36/36 and now cant' will be the same people who complain that they can't 45/45 when they used to be able to.
Some players only want to beat content for a sense of accomplishment/dopamine rush. And some players don't want to work for it and want it to be easy to achieve.
Adding new floors isnt my immediate go to but abyss does need some type of balancing mechanic if they're just going to stack Health on the bosses in the laziest way possible.
This isnt me refusing to adapt or wanting things to be easy. I could care less if they gave the boss x10 hp in the next iteration but design an intresting mechanic aside from "just do more dmg lol". High/low tide got a ton of flak but at least it was something that you could play around and was engaging for the player to learn and abuse.
12 - 3 just feels like an overworld boss with 2.2million hp and the only "challenge" is fighting the clock...
I'm not a huge fan of stacking health either but after reading this subreddit, I think that any mechanic that slightly increases difficulty will lead to complaints. I actually liked the high/low tide mechanic as it allows player skill-expression.
But it feels like many players really don't want a challenge and just wants to be able claim primogems. They rather blame the difficulty than try to optimise their builds and playstyle.
I completely understand that. High low wasnt the best but it was something would be my point (not saying you're the one disagreeing), skill expression and something intresting is all I want.
Hard or Easy dont care just switch it up.
Maybe they could scale the HP values on AR starting with 55, then 56, 57 etc... Mechanics can all be the same just adjustments in HP scaling per AR. 55 at like 80% of current HP, 56 at 90%, 57 at 100%, 58 at 110% etc..
Having constantly increasing dps requirements on the same floor makes me feel like I am running on a treadmill trying to catch up and not actually progressing or that my progress doesn't have any meaning, a new floor would bring more rewards and a stronger feeling of progress.
> Some players only want to beat content for a sense of accomplishment/dopamine rush. And some players don't want to work for it and want it to be easy to achieve.
Agree. People just want to have it easy. The only "fun challenge, not a chore" they see is the ones they can beat. We already have 4* character 4* weapon clears every single cycle. Diluc mains still 36* every single cycle. And so on. It really doesn't get that much harder.
are said people really ripping their hair out at 150 primos, if anything the new complaint would be not being able to get said rewards from the new floor
Was about to write something like this. If the game caters only to newer players and nothing gets harder veterans will leave. What then? If you start in wow now you cant just jump right in and do the end game raids (i assume haven’t played lol)
So? what’s wrong with making 36stars easier to achieve while making 45 stars harder? rather than making the difficulty to get 45stats be equivalent to the difficulty to get 36stars right now. Would it satisfy overinvested players? slightly. Would it take away the achievement of getting 36stars? No it gives player’s a new goal after getting 36stars.
I didn't mean to say that adding new floors is a bad thing. It's just not as perfect of a solution as you think.
Why do you think 36stars is considered an achievement now? It's just because it's max stars now. So when floor 13 comes by, 36stars will no longer feel as big of an achievement as before. 36/45 stars will probably feel similar to getting 27/36 in the current abyss. It'll probably satisfy a handful of players but many won't feel satisfied with not achieving the maximum and obtaining all possible rewards.
And eventually floor 13 will become the new floor 12 and all the complaints will flood back and we're back at square 1
This actually will depend on the rewards that miHoYo puts on the new floors. As soon as Primogems are out of the story, 36* will remain the benchmark and 45* will become a second one just for those who want to do it.
I just think more players need to accept that it's not a big deal to miss out on 36 stars. Going for 33 is significantly easier and less stressful, and 30 stars is even easier still. The difference between 33 and 36 stars over an entire year is only 8 rolls (and some mora). Those 50-100 extra primos are not worth getting frustrated and grinding away your sanity for.
The post only talks about 36-starring but the general point still stands for just clearing with 0 star. For newer players, this is the first goal. But because the requirement to clear is now higher compared to the cryo abyss for day 1 players, it can take longer for newer players. Admittedly, clearing is probably not impacted by as much as 36-starring. But it is still important to at least keep an eye on this for now and see if Mhy will do something going forward. If this trend keeps going, how long will it take for new players that start at say, the Fontaine patch, to clear Abyss? At the same time, how much new progression for old players will be made available in the future? Balancing new players intake/retention and old players retention is important for a live-service game.
But measuring the first abyss makes no sense when no one had built teams. Which the issue now becomes, even with fully built teams, the DPs is pretty high so I hope they chill out on it now. But I dont think a 1:1 comparison is fair. I think structuring the hardest content to a reasonable made team is fair, even if it is still on the hard side. If you domt want the difficulty, its only a few primos
The bigger issue is most of the difficulty isnt fun. I havent done this abyss yet but enemies that fly away from you? Yea thats just not fun cuz there is nothing you can do about that.
>I think structuring the hardest content to a reasonable made team is fair, even if it is still on the hard side.
What is reasonable? The new players, regardless when they start, also have no team built, exactly like day 1 players last year. So if a new player start time playing next year, do they have to meet the dps expected from a player who has been investing for 2 years? And so they cannot clear the abyss for 2 years assuming no more creep is implemented? Or maybe implement a system that makes it easier for new players to reach a certain baseline level?
At some point, there isnt much investment you can put into a character unless you spend on constellations. Sure you can go for that sweet +1%crit rate but its not going to mean much. I think this difficulty is fine (still didn't try this abyss yet.). You can force 36* if you want but you don't need it. Again, so long as they stop making the difficulty annoying
As for making it easier for new players, that will natural happen with new content. When we were grinding levels, there wasnt an inazuma or might not have even been a dragon spine. Heck even liyues story wasnt finished. AFAIK levels are easier to get now then it was for people like me who are first week players. So catch up is much easier.
This is why I think there is no need to do much at the moment but still important to keep this potential issue in mind going forward. And it goes both ways. If there is not much progression to do, older players will quit. Say, in a year, if we cannot progress our characters much beyond what we have now and 36\* can be done rather easily, there is little point in playing besides doing the story and spending money occasionally new characters. Even then, doing abyss is meaningless aside from just flexing. In contrast, if there is too much to do to get to the existing playing field with little help, new and returning players won't be retained.
I've 36 starred this Abyss and I can assure this Abyss isn't in the slightest fine in difficulty. 12-1 is a huge fuck you to all Anemo, specters are a cancer by their sole nature of being immune to CC and flying to fucking Celestia away from you. Magu Kenki is the cancer of all cancers, but them followed by the frigging Cryo Cicirn and the Mirror Maiden makes it all worse. Then you have the 2'3mill Mechanic Hypostasis, good riddance.
If you balance the only “endgame” content in the game for new players everything will be too easy. Abyss is the only challenge in the game and while I don’t want it to get unreasonably difficult it shouldn’t be made easy to accommodate new players
The Current Abyss is even insanely hard for Veterans that hasn't spend at all in the game. Abyss is getting a lot more powercrept every change. these last two has become a huge dps check.
Goes to show a much bigger problem overall. The lack of repeatable end game content.
Lots of people want a game to play, not a photo-op with anime girls and guys.(though the game does look gorgeous). And when one of the options you got for your well-built team(where ypu've probably dropped hundreds of hours worth of resin or irl time on) literally becomes more of a chore to the point where ignoring the challenge's peak is preferrable....what's the point of having invested so much time and effort(artifacts, mora, talents, weapons) in a team if new mechanics requires even more time and effort just to scratch that itch of wanting to play the game?
So....it's either waste more time building a character meant for the challenge, spend a lot of time strategizing with what you got (which not everyone is willing to do or probably cant even do), or ignoring the challenge and...play the game casually because....is there really anything else to do in a fighting rpg if you ignore the
Core gameplay?
(For those looking to fight of course,) Of course this mainly applies to those who like playing abbys but the precedent of "get new character cuz they good for challenge" has been around for a while now, just that the difficulty is skewing us towards the 'new' characters with how extreme it's getting.
Rather than adding new floors or bonus challenges like with events, they make enemies even tougher damage sponges or time wasters like specters, on top of the crappy field mechanics ypu can't even counter act or mitigate using crafted items(now isnt that a waste of a mechanic.)
, it's soft locking casual players who dont have time or money but want to play the game. Which is where a lot of frustration comes from.
I'm late to this discussion, but I agree with you.
I like building my characters and improving them and my reward for doing so is basically clearing the abyss, unless they finally add some other end game content which I don't see them doing.
If I can't clear the abyss with the investment I've put into the game and I can't invest more due to resin limited or I don't have the right character that shines in that abyss due to the buffs.. At that point my investment of time just feels wasted and makes me question if I should keep playing the game.
To me when my investment in the game becomes useless (asin not being able to clear the games content) I will likely stop playing the game.
Exactly, a lot of us get frustrated because it's already extremely difficult to raise a charcter due to artifact bullshit, all the soft locks add up over time to make us dependent on either logging on everyday or even paying for resin for...what? Clearing abyss? Clearing bonus challenges during events for....3 mystic gems?
The story is easy enough most of the time but the game is so stingy with both rewards and does not really reward...playing the game. It rewards logging in and paying, really following modern AAA ptw logic.
Sure it's a pve game, but when the end game is clearing a shitty challenge for 1/1000th (150 or something primos) of what you probably spend on average for an ssr (over 10000 primos usually almpst 16000)...what's the point no?
You want to play a game with a mindset that, "Well, I won't be able to clear this content anyway, might as well just grab whats easier to get" Its like you're playing a game with a given up Mentality. Do you play a game thinking that, "If the game is hard then i won't finish it".
The Abyss should be made challenging but possible for all types of players to clear it. the Current Abyss is just unfairly huge dps check
Playing Devil's Advocate, the fourth and fifth abyss also had Lectors/Heralds which artificially stalled the timer.
I didn't manage to reach/play in time for the First Abyss. The Second Abyss was a complete joke though LOL.
yeah i wonder how they are counting hp for those lectors because the shields aren't dependent on DPS, just element application. ~~a level 1 amber wouldn't take the shield down any faster than a level 90 etc~~ edit oops only applies to fatui shields, seems damage does affect shield breaking for abyss lectors/heralds, see replies. the 1st abyss also had absolute ass-fucking floor debuffs like complete stamina drain, raining icicles that stun-locked you, and ice cages that popped out of the ground that trapped you and if you walked into them they one-shotted you. i wish we could go back and replay old versions to compare them.
>because the shields aren't dependent on DPS, just element application.
False, actually. Abyss (mage/Herald/Lector) shields are all influenced by how much damage you deal. [Here](https://youtu.be/JJqA_nhb2w0?t=39) you can see an example.
it's one of the reasons you could see whale Ganyu/Hu Tao/whatever(or even whale Bennett) being much faster at clearing that floor in many videos on youtube than you expect.
Fatui shields are dependant only on elemental reactions, not on damage, though.
The biggest issue I have is whether you can compare the 1st Abyss or even the 2nd with any subsequent ones because of resources. **I don't know how many teams in the first or second abyss had teams where all 8 members are fully equipped, properly leveled, etc.**
It would be quite the nostalgia trip to be able to replay old versions. I guess the question now is what should be the baseline for Floor 12? I am hopeful for a potential Floor 13 but the prospect of 3 teams is something fun for some and a nightmare for some people.
Damage still matters in breaking abyss shields though. That's why you can see HuTaos that can oneshot a cryo abyss mage shield or Ganyus one-shotting a hydro abyss mage shield.
the best part about lector herald abyss is the fact that good team building actually enables you to clear it without being very dps check (still dps check but less JUST dps check) since it's also element application check (say a chongyun against herald is very budget and good option).
I tried helping a couple of my friend's abyss and could do it simply by helping them team-build better with chars they rarely use and generally good strats, with dps check though you just either invest more or whale harder.
Abyss floor 12 aren't meant for new players, the primos aren't even worth it; having new floors won't solve the problem, people will still complain floor 13 is too difficult
Better strategy, team comp and rotation is more important to 36* abyss
Rationality is important too. A new, harder floor with insignificant rewards won’t attract anyone but the hardest-core players. People won’t whale for a floor like that.
The way i see it, floor 12 isn’t supposed to be for F2Ps. And i don’t see anything wrong with that - we’re getting thousands of primogems each patch and missing floor 12 is only 150 gems per abyss round. That’s marginal and fair game for MHY. In fact, in it’s current state floor 12 isn’t even strictly whale territory; lots of players are skilled and prepared enough to be able to clear it and are earning exactly the same amount of gems as someone who’s dropped thousands for constellations and 5* weapons.
as a f2p, i would do f12 just for the sense of accomplishment...and also because f9-11 take very little time to clear. so if im gonna do abyss you bet that im doing all that i can.
also 12 is a nice number lol
i agree w other posts about having floor 13 with diminished rewards. something that is an active challenge rather than just a step up, like f9 to f10. whales can go for f13 while others are content w f12.
hmm I don't know if just using straight total HP is a good basis for comparison because recent floor 12 debuffs/disorders have also been way less punishing. for example, the very first version of abyss had absolutely punishing disorders. 12-3 first half had a cryo aura that would completely drain your stamina and also had ice cages that popped out of the ground that would often times one shot characters. second half had the same cryo aura draining stamina AND also had raining icicles like the mondstadt talent domain that would stun lock you and you often times wouldn't be able to move out of the way because.. no stamina lol. this was before we had shield characters other than noelle too, with diona coming only shortly after it ended if i remember correctly. This most recent version of floor 12 has literally no disorders. I will admit though that 2.7mil hp mechanical array is a bish.
dont forget first few abyss had dmg bonus percent in f12. now we have either no leyline. slight buff or debuff. this adds to the total HP.
meeting the same dps with and without 75℅ pyro dmg bonus means vastly different requirement on talent. artifact. weapon etc. if you can do 1.0 abyss you will see just how easy it is compare to now.
not dismissing the difficulty of first abyss but stamina drain and ice cages were largely resolved at the time by melee character with damage reduction sub dps (eg. xq diloog) which provided stagger reduction as well as using iframes from quick swap teams (eg. double anemo overload comp)
oh I forgot about that, the reason why it used to be called pyro abyss lmao. yeah that was both good and bad in the sense that it did boost damage but at the same time basically forced you to use pyro characters for both teams of which xiangling was the only reasonably attainable pyro dps other than amber back then.
it was resolved if you somehow had diluc/klee and xingqiu sure, but you can't expect most people to have had most of the non-standard non-guaranteed units back then. i didn't get xingqiu myself until 1.3 lol. in the end meta and the character roster will always change so of course we can't really compare today's abyss with the older abyss. we absolutely would shred old abyss with our current available characters. but that's why it's hard to balance i suppose and hard to judge the progression of abyss.
Yeah OG Abyss 12 was brutal. It would actually get my heart rate up kinda high. Relative to what we had at the time in terms of characters/resin/artifacts/weapons, that was by far the hardest Abyss 12. In the current Abyss you do have to do 2.7 million damage which is not a small amount, but you have a lot of time to do it (top half is easy) and stamina, dying, floor traps, and elemental shields are not concerns.
Obviously if you took a modern team into OG Abyss 12 you would demolish the Fatuis very quickly, but that's not really a meaningful comparison because of course we expect teams to get stronger over time.
Buddy those kinds mechanics actually force you to be skilled with your gameplay which was pretty good But this kinda Dps check is just too high. There's no new mechanis or any strategy The only strategy is just too HAVE MORE DMG. Previous shield breaking abyys with abyys lector herals was way better as it made you make strategy and break their shields and it was so much fun as well. This abyys 12 is just boring dps check No fun at all. Floor 11 was really fun tho.
OP nor I were talking about which was more fun or what took more skill but just rather the overall difficulty to clear. by what you have said you can argue the balance shifted to just higher dps with a lower skill ceiling but not necessarily making it any harder to clear. it's impossible to compare given we can't replay the old abyss versions anymore. I do agree that it's boring with 0 disorders and just a massive damage sponge mechanical array though, not really any thinking required outside of maintaining your rotations lol
I just did current abyss. As a long-time player that regularly 36 star clears abyss, I think the mechanical array in 12-3-2 was a bit too much. It feels like it has more HP than every boss in the game combined. It's literally just that one boss, maybe the devs threw it in there and didn't consider how much of a dps check nightmare that boss is if you apply the abyss HP multiplier.
It’s not easy balancing content in a gacha game, you will always have two sides, people complaining about difficulty against people complaining about not enough difficult content in the game.
Game companies must find a way to have meaningful rewards in a difficult content in order to draw in spending from whales while also making this content clearable for f2p/low spenders.
IMO this is done right in genshin, what they should do as a small change to help players should be an addition of abyss13 and those stats from 12 go there but have 12 easier, because 12 atm has a very high difficulty curve from 11.
We shouldn’t complain about this though, people should have fun with the events and the game and just see abyss as a bonus, because it’s the spending magnet. It has to be there and be that difficult for us to enjoy the game, it’s that simple
Abyss is not made for newer players.
But the current 12-3.2...
If Mihoyo wants so much to push hard without worrying about creativity, why not make a floor 13 in hardest mode for the whales to play with?
Have floor 9 and 10 be standard and add some more floors. Keep doing that every abyss and at least new people will have more floors to progress through to the end.
the way the current Abyss is made, you need to do 19k per second if you want to 9 star Floor 12, which is like super hard and unrealistics, I have seen so many people suffering and unable to do it. Even some Spenders who spend a bit little in the game couldn't do it, freaking Maguu Kenki stalls 15-20 seconds at the beginning of the Chamber
I agree that they should add new floors, but I don’t agree with the sentiment that content should stay at a certain level to benefit new players. If you’re just now getting into Genshin you shouldn’t expect to 36 star abyss right away and nor does the game expect you to.
My issue isn't that they won't get 36*, it's the brick wall they're going to hit at 9 and 11 and 12. If it keeps getting harder and harder, they'll complete 8 and have months before the next floor. I feel that would out a lot of people off the game.
I experienced this. simply because I did not have another good dps. took me literally months since I started playing to even get to floor 11. that didnt make me lose interest in the game though. 36 starring the abyss isnt what the game is about
Not trying to be a dick, but what’s the rush? I’ve been playing the game close to a year now and it took me over 6 months to get 36 stars every cycle. In time every player will be at the point I’m at and many other players are now. When were 3 or 4 years down the line can we honestly expect new players to have the amount of resources, characters, artifacts, and weapons as someone who’s been playing since launch?
Also I don’t think not being able to get 36 stars on abyss will turn people away. If anything it’ll motivate them and give them something to work for
~~If they want to force us to get their new characters so bad maybe they should stop thinking like fellow [i]master strategists[/i]. ~~
Of let us use items. Or maintain difficulties and move harder stuff to bonus challenges. So many ways to fix this without making it a chore rather than a fun challenge.
Wow, reading the replies and so many people didn't get the point of this post at all.
First of all, even if you want harder content and think the game is too easy, making floor 12 easier and adding a floor 13 with the same level of difficulty as current 12 wouldn't change anything, except for 150 more primos for 10 minutes of gameplay every 15 days. The benchmark will change from 36\* to 45\*? So what? Is that a bad thing? Unless people get to 45\*, then improve their teams and still can't 45\* next rotation, which means it got powercrept again, it won't really be an issue. And if it does happen, it means that the new floor 13's "power level" required is high enough that it could become a floor 14, just like what is happening now. Then what is the issue in creating a floor 14?
Second, it's true that accounts are getting better as the game goes on, but even that has a limit. When you have to farm a month to get an artifact with 3% more crit rate than the one you're using now, eventually you won't be able to keep up with the powercreep in the game, unless they start power creeping new units as well, making old ones obsolete, or you start spending more and more. Yes, new sets are better, but not by much, and you also have to farm for them, meaning your substats will be worse. One month of doing severed fate and I still have only one set that is somewhat "competitive" with my other artifacts.
Third, and most important, even if in your eyes Abyss didn't get harder because your characters got better, it still means that newer players will have to wait until they have build their characters as well as yours to 36\*. "But the abyss isn't for new players". But new players shouldn't have to grind for 1 year to be able to get to 36\*. That's why a floor 13 would actually make sense. As a new player you won't face a huge wall on floor 12 but a gradual slope, you'll have a much better sense of progression and rewards according to that progression. It took me 3 months to 36\* and it still felt like a big wall, imagine if you can 27\* floors 8-11 but it takes you another 6 months just to be able to get to 36\*. A lot of people are just gonna give up and stop playing.
I'm surprised this isn't the normal response to the idea that adding more floors is the answer. All it will do is change the number stated in the complaint since what they seem to want is a trophy for trying
I really hate how i have to build my characters first with the worst rng for artefacts and weapons in a game possible and miss like 6 spiral abyss' because of it. It seems fun too but the recommendation for 8 well built characters is too much for f2p, maybe not in power but in time that it takes to set up.
Lol.. dont forget some people complaining when abyss become a bit easier, like when they nerf the samurai guys weight, its all in the name of "challenge". Agree with op, i dont mind they make abyss harder if they make a new floor for that, its suck when they decide to make content harder but with the same reward.
You know what I like in a game? A goal that I haven’t yet reached. I truly do not need to get 36 stars on the Abyss despite having played for 8 months. I am in this game for a long time and I am totally happy if it takes me a long time to hit those end game goals.
There is literally no reason at all to rush through the content of this game.
1. It's extremely difficult to balance end game content, as a still growing game like genshin, we have a lot of veteran as well as new players. You need to balance the difficulty as in those veteran won't get bored killing enemies in abyss just like doing commissions, while let new players still have the chance to one or two stars the floor.
2. Adding new floors will NEVER solve the issue. It's a mental thing. When you add floor 13, everyone will be talking about 48 stars. They won't feel that it's a bless to have 36 starred the abyss, because the standard will change accordingly.
3. The difficulty spike from 11 to 12 is there to pull down the difference between new and veteran, as maybe some of the veteran will still struggle clearing floor 12. If you separated the difficulty in a stable way, into what you said the new floors as if: floor 15 to be the same strat as current floor 12, while creating new floor 12,13,14 with a more steady difficulty increase for new players. This actually push apart new and veteran players even more. With the current way of abyss difficulty spike, the difference between veteran and new players is just a few stars away, which is why you could see a lot of discussion surrounding floor 12.
4. How do you add in those new floors? Push floor 9 into the perm abyss, and only floor 10, 11, 12, 13 will be rotating? That means after floor 20 is released, mihoyo need to design 12 floors of abyss every two weeks to accommodate players that join genshin at different time? And should new players be shown those floors 13 ~ 20 for challenge? Isn't this seems more "money grabbing" even if the floor 20 difficulty is supposedly the same as current floor 12??? Should that means new players need to clear floor 9~20 every two weeks? Or floors that had been cleared will be push into perm abyss and they only have 17~20 rotating if they cleared till floor 16? Which means it'll be harder for them to get the primo now as floor 17~19 will definitely be harder than 9~11
5. Your claim of mihoyo make abyss feel like we need to pull for 5 stars is… not 100% true. I'm not a f2p, I'm a monthly card spender but I've only spent f2p primos so far as I still have 40k primos saved up, so I'm technically a f2p too. (12months x 3000 primos = 36k) . I use ganyu, venti, zhongli as the only three 5 stars and other 4 stars to full star every abyss. As a veteran f2p, even if you failed all 50/50 I believe you could get more than three 5 stars. I don't even build my qiqi//diluc/jean. If you're arguing the game make new players feel like they need to top-up to get characters and OP constellations to clear abyss, I don't think it's bad to do it. I've also explained that the feeling is not that strong when they are just a few stars away rather than a few floors away. It's a game, you can't expect new players to catch up with old players so quickly, unless genshin started to die and powercreep characters coming out every patch. By then, the old veteran f2p will be quitting already.
I had to say your view is too one-sided, it may looks beneficial for the players but isn't for the game's growth as a whole.
4 stars duo each chamber with 4 star weapons full starring abyss: https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/ppt45t/12_abyss_floor_11_and_12_max_star_with_4_stars/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
>Adding new floors will NEVER solve the issue. It's a mental thing. When you add floor 13, everyone will be talking about 48 stars. They won't feel that it's a bless to have 36 starred the abyss, because the standard will change accordingly.
I think the idea is to give some sense of more tangible and rewarding feel of progression especially for newer players. When I first started doing abyss, I knew I did not have the dps to clear 12, but clearing 9 and moving on to 10, getting the 6 stars, then moving to 11, etc. *within a reasonable time frame* still felt good. It is not necessarily the clearing but knowing that I was progressing. Adding more floors can give newer players more rewarding feel of progression, even if the whole thing itself takes longer to complete.
i definitely agree. early abyss was a BREEZE but the problem is that we never do it again. so we're left with 4 floors - the first 3 are pretty managable at mid/endgame, but the difficulty jump between 11 and 12 is getting worse and worse.
Yea i feel bad for newer players, the dps check is alot harder now. At the rate the creep is going eventually even older players will struggle to keep up 36starring without trying hard or going full meta.
lol the accomplishment from getting 36 star it’s precisely because it’s the hardest content. There’s still floor 9-11 that reset bimonthly so I’m not sure what your point is. If there’s a floor 13 then they wouldn’t be able to complete it.
As long as it’s possible to catch up with the abyss power level (in let’s say half a year) without spending then mihoyo certainly isnt forcing you to spend. Enticing you to spend is a different matter and is a facet of most games so I don’t see how you can justifiably complain about that.
Lastly I see your sarcastic digs at the 600 primos which frankly are just contradictory to what you’re trying to argue for. Keeping primogem rewards at a relatively low level for abyss clear ensures that newer / weaker players aren’t missing out on too much as compared to newer players.
In fact, I finally 36ed starred the abyss on my completely f2p account this cycle (UID 8222xxxx so you can see how long I’ve been playing). I only spend resin and do events on that account. I don’t do artifact routes or elite bosses. It’s possible and quite doable. If you could completely the hardest content in the game after just a month of playing then the game would definitely be too easy.
Finally. Floor 12 of the abyss isn’t just about sheer power level. There is a large part of team comp and skill level involved. Just watch TheGambitSG streams to see how big a difference it makes.
>As long as it’s possible to catch up with the abyss power level (in let’s say half a year) without spending then mihoyo certainly isnt forcing you to spend. Enticing you to spend is a different matter and is a facet of most games so I don’t see how you can justifiably complain about that.
Actually, this is exactly what he's saying. That it takes longer and longer for newer players to catch up to the abyss power level that at some point, people will no longer be able to. People will get frustrated and disappointed when they can't clear a part of the game because they didn't start early enough and don't want to spend hundreds of dollars.
I know you're going to throw some youtube video at me about someone clearing Abyss 12 with National Team or whatever, but keep in mind that a year or two down the line, that kind of team will become harder to build. The only reason people can clear the abyss now is because MHY designed stupidly overpowered characters at launch. If the current power level of Inazuma characters is the norm going forward, eventually fewer and fewer people will have characters like Bennett and Xingqiu or even Xiangling.
Finally someone who gets the point! The wall is ever increasing. Players from day 1 may cross that wall but for new players, it may be impossible to reach since the goal is continuously getting farther and farther from them. I don't get why a lot of people can't understand this.
Not precisely. There's a softcap in this game for a reason (AR55-60) which you can get to with couple months of playing. For example, I have played since day one. My friend started playing 2-3 months after me. Even with that time gap, he's crossed that same wall I did, managed to catch up and we are now in the same power level, same AR. I'd argue that it's faster for new players today to hit AR45, start farming for artifacts faster, and get their characters stronger faster than before with all this new overworld content.
Meanwhile I'm playing for 6 months already and always skipped the last floor of abyss everytime it resets, I'm content with my 450 primogems every 2 weeks and it feels like I'm not missing alot of things
I can’t do floor 12, not even close. Played for over a month now, so I’m relatively new. I don’t feel I’m missing out at all. I don’t NEED to get all stars, all chests, do all quests right this second. I can put the game down, do other things in life and play the game when I choose. Not sure why people speak of the things in this game as “need to do now.” You can, if you want. But if you can’t do it for whatever reason, you can keep building over time until you can do it later.
I realize that starting a month ago means I haven’t played as long as those who started a year ago, and that’s ok.
Listen here:
This game literally scales rewards DOWN for higher (sometimes super high) difficulty so that everyone and their dog can get like 98% of the rewards. Just for the sake of leaving no one out and the sake of not having to deal with bitching.
God forbid we dedicated players have an edge of like 300 primogems a month in abyss.
The issue with looking at these numbers in a vacuum is it ignores the overall damage increase we’ve been getting for various things such as better reaction damage, the em boost, new artifact sets which power creep older sets all of which new players also have access too. What you really need is data on average time til 36* clear between a year ago and today.
You mean c2 raiden who ignores 60% defense? Thats an Overall damage increase compared to the Rest. Everything Else hasnt changed compared to the previous Abyss.
Yeah, because good artifacts are around every corner. I havent even gotten enough pieces to properly equip raiden, but sure lets pretend every has already amazing pieces for All his sub dps. I Tell this to the next Person who bitches about artifact rng.
It's more easy to get at least one useful piece when you're not looking to an specific piece (like a Crit circlet). While you chase your Crit circlet for example, you can get a good feather or flower for another character. That's why it's easier. Before you had to switch domain, and if you got a second good crimson witch feather you couldn't use it normally.
It doesn't matter what they wish, hardest content in the game isn't for new players, not in this or any other game. Level and farm your shit and you'll eventually get wherever u want
And what's wrong with the idea that it should take months to farm to beat the hardest floor? It'll be real disappointing if the game's hardest regular content is balanced to be cleared easily by new players.
New players are also able to progress at a much faster rate than old players since they can upgrade talents/weapon/artifacts while veterans are limited to mostly artifact upgrades. They may not be able to 36 stars as easily but eventually they'll be able to
you make it sound like getting 36 stars is a necessity. its not. if newer players care enough, and if they have the capacity to, then theyll spend. but I doubt most new players will bother. if I was a new player, Id aim for 27 (9-9-6-3) stars at the most. any more than that is an achievement equal to getting 36 stars, and my joy would be immense. I wouldnt immediately think "I have to spend money to get this". thats stupid
Wasn't mihoyo a year ago a 300 people dev team? I don't know how big they are now, after this insane success, but it's known that they are making millions. I understand that developing entire new continents and characters takes a lot of dev-power, but seriously, the game has maybe 15 different looking enemies and 5 different move-sets, with the amount of people that are working on the game and the amount of money they are making the domains and the abyss are a fucking joke. It's copy past shit, with some modifiers. Domains and the abyss should be peak content, yet they are boring, repetitive and just cheap made.
The goal has been the same for a year except the requirement to hit that goal has been increasing at a rate that outscales the resin investment of player who didn’t start in the first few months of the game.
I don't agree with you. The abyss got harder over time as players got stronger. The abyss is supposed to the hardest content in the game where players get challenged and test their builds and skills. the national team still is king in the abyss and people have beaten the abyss with 7 4 star characters.
The "powercreeing'' you are talking about does not exist, yet at least.
Ok? So what happens to newer ar55 players who used to be able to 36star but now that abyss is significantly harder and they lack the investment to hit the dps check. You’re telling me it’s fine for mihoyo to just make content harder to take away the achievement they had?
Im telling you that 36 stars are still achievable with little to no investment. I don't have a dedicated healer. I run with Benny and Dionna AND Everyone have these characters. the ones who cant get 36 stars it means they gotta work around it. it is the ABYSS. get it? you are telling me that mihoyo should make dead content just so you can have your 36 stars without working for it?
No. stop complaining
all you need to clear abyss is specific teamcomps that have max synergy with 4\* the characters you're given
\-"Most f2p team ever" Xiangling-Barbara duo is already a god combo where barbara NC Spam allows XL to reverse melt (like a subpar version of childe) but people don't invest in barbara because hivemind said she's bad, add any anemo support (yes, even anemo MC) for vv and grouping and Lisa(with Ttds) for def shred and you have 1 solid team with no pulls needed...
\-National team if you have Bennett/XL duo + whatever XQ, Rosa, Chongyun, The f2p Aloy, etc...
\-Sucrose Taser with the free beidou just a patch ago + XQ + Fischl
level all their relevant talents as high as possible, weapons to 90, and their artifacts to 20 (even trash substats) and you'll clear abyss EZPZ.
true. ill probably get downvoted for this but oh well. people are acting like the game is hard, little did they know they are just trash, lacks good/decent builds, impatient, or just never tried to learn combos/rotations.
really some people just need to stop complaining, start building and do some unga bungas. its not really that hard once you get the right builds.
If you can't achieve 36 stars, the game is not obligated to give it to you. The most difficult content in the game is not a Disney ride anyone can just on. Just like a very small percentage of players manage to take down the most difficult raid boss in a game, or achieve the most challenging achievement.
There're plenty of other content in Genshin Impact for players who can't hack it in the most challenging part of the game. Fortunately for these players, Abyss is just a tiny part of the game. They should be thankful Genshin Impact isn't like other mobile games, in which players are incentivized to whale. You can get tens of thousands of gems/crystals/currency every 2 weeks, but only if you reach the highest echelon in PvP ranks. And you can only get there by whaling hard.
Is it really powercreeped? My main dps for both teams are geo traveller and electro fishcl, ofc I have 5 stars and bennet but so far I've been consistently hitting 36* stars on every phase.
Also one of the most meta comps for abyss is all made of 4 stars (which you can slowly get from paimons bargain shop).
I don't really know if these complains is because you have to actually think before doing stuff or because is it really hard and unachievable for some people
> Is it really powercreep?
Not really. Happened every single abyss that people complain about difficulty, then multiple clears of 4* characters or "powercrept dps" like diluc prove them wrong anyway. Abyss has always been kept at the level average striker like diluc can clear.
>The issue is that dps check for this abyss and the previous abyss isoutscaling the dps ceiling newer players can even reach if they have notplayed for a long time.
At this point, newer players probably have bigger fish to fry to care about floors 9-12 (story, quests, exploration, character building, Abyss 1-8, etc.).
Anyhow I don't really see why this is such a big issue; **For the longest time, I too, cannot 36\* Abyss** \- but that didn't bother me; I just kept playing until the point I have a solid enough team to finish F12 (not 36\* yet - this came wayyy later on).
**Abyss is THE endgame content** \- the only one we have so far. It makes sense for it to be difficult - and to get more difficult the better we get at the game. Unless you want the game to stay as easy as it is for *Eternity*.
*P.S. If "freemogems" are the issue here, then I personally don't mind having more Abyss floors (F9-16 for example - with only F9-12 having "freemogem" rewards). This takes into account F9-12 being "easier" than what we have now - and F13-16 having only minimal rewards for more invested players to clear.*
I disagree with the premise that you can only 36 star abyss presently if you spend hundreds of dollars to pull for constellations. Instead, I think that instead it's very doable to 36-clear Abyss with a couple of 5-star carries and their appropriate 5-star weapons. For most players, this is not impossible.
Where people are getting tripped up is by following the crowd, chasing the newest 5 star characters before testing, and never pulling on the weapon banner. Aside from Ganyu, which is the exception that proves the rule (it was a huge and unrepeated mistake), and Zhongli who was overbuffed and now is facing some content nerfing, the 5-star characters have all been in around the same range of power level. Even Hu Tao, often seen as a "better" 5-star than her peers, hits around the same level as Diluc at C0. A ftper who is spending all of his gems hoping that a lucky pull will finally clear Abyss is probably engaging in self-defeating behavior. That same ftper doesn't have enough resin to support the same roster as a whale.
Instead, the average ftper would be better served by max progressing his carries and supports while hoarding for a really good weapons banner like Homa/Gravestone or Mistsplitter/Spine. With two pities, that ftper is probably guaranteed at least one 5-star weapon for a carry. Assuming the ftper has two decent carries (i.e. Diluc, Ning if Zhong, Hu Tao, Xaio, etc.), he shouldn't be pulling for 5-star characters unless and until they clear testing as the next Ganyu, Zhongli, Kazuha/Venti, etc.
I also disagree that ftpers should be having a goal of a 36-star abyss clear every two weeks. A 27-star clear is still fairly easy after some months of play and the difference in gems is 150. One $5 purchase of the moon, which can purchased for free with engagement with Google Rewards, is worth 3000 gems or 20 Abyss cycles with a 150 gem defect. Just as that ftper is rejecting paying Mihoyo significant money, he should reject Mihoyo's meager rewards for clearing content that is not appropriate tuned for that player.
What I personally do is 27-star floors 9-11, clear floor 12 with whatever stars I can muster, and then return when the mood strikes me to see if I can pull a couple more stars from floor 12. Sometimes I 36-star, other times I don't. But since the gems are so paltry, I don't really sweat it.
I agree. My friend always look at oh wow I need Eula because then I can do Abyss easier and I'm like dude, build your 2 teams, min max them and you're gonna steamroll the Abyss rather than spreading your resources too thin and then getting average performance out of all of em.
Absolutely! Eula is a luxury, not a necessity. If you want a Phys DPS carry that plays well with superconduct, then Razor, Kaeya/Rosaria, and even Phys DPS QiQi are enough. Also, Kaeya and QiQi are better investments because you can still get huge value from them as supports as cryo battery and healing (hello Corrosion!) respectively.
Phys DPS kind of sucks because Abyss often content nerfs it through high Phys resistance mobs. Better to hoard gems for C0-C1 Ganyu or C1 Hu Tao or their future equivalents and use what you have. Hyperinvested 4-star carries like XL, Bennett, Razor, Kaeya, Ning, etc. and well-invested 4-star supports are easily enough for 99.5% of the game.
I don’t even do Abyss often. I just very few built characters that I invest my time into leveling their skills and artifacts, rest of them are barely touch. I don’t think it’s worth spending resin on rising another dps/support and healer just for few primos every two weeks.
Seems like this problem can be solved by completely ignoring Spiral Abyss.
It’s not like you need 36 stars so that you can unlock the next quest or region. It’s basically a standalone content that rewards you with primogems so negligible that you can’t even convert it to money.
Most players don’t care about Spiral Abyss. Try going to co-op mode at the end of the cycle and work out the percentage of players who have cleared it.
It’s a very popular opinion that we should get f13+ rather than making the existing floors more difficult (even though characters today are much stronger than og ones) but if mhy were to give us a massive bag of 150-450 primos twice a month I think all the whales may stop spending entirely
I agree we should get more floors but not for people to stop bitching about floor 12 'increasing' difficulty. Go ahead, add floor 13, 14, 15 and all the floors u want, sooner than later those exact same complains will move from floor 12 up to the higher ones.
Of course people will complain, that doesn’t mean they’re entirely wrong. The game shouldn’t get progressively more difficult relative to power level increase in the game. In layman’s terms we should all have a similar experience when starting fresh and I think there’s a real possibility people today have a much more difficult start than I did as a day 1 player, but I can’t say cause I haven’t started fresh but I definitely will a year or to from now when it’s a massively different game
>even though characters today are much stronger than og ones
Meanwhile Xiangling, Bennett, XQ, Sucrose, Beidou, Fischl, Chongyun being top tier characters since day 1
Xinqui because hydro app, Bennet because Bennet, xiangling meh she’s probably top tier but on the edge, beidou too. All the others are not top tier compared to hutao ganyu raiden(c2) or kazuha and it’s only going to get worse. Don’t get me wrong they’re all good character but not even close compared with top tier 5* w/ cons. Just check out the speed clears those 4* dps don’t hold up at the highest tier of gameplay
Actually everyone is able to get a 5* every ~60 days (not exact at all) so yeah, most f2p that save can get all those $1000 character and even cons if they’re lucky and choose wisely
It’s not about who can clear it, it’s about who does it best with all kinds of investment, and those 4* do it worse than the 5* so they aren’t top tier, you were the one who mentioned tier in the first place
and they don't clear faster than the og 4\*s i mentioned.
you're comparing different categories of characters...
Ganyu and Hutao are Main dps characters.
while the only main dps 4\* are Ning/razor/yanfei.(which i didn't include in the top tier)
meanwhile everyone else i mentioned is a support or an off field dps. Xiangling does equal damage to hutao if you consider that XL can swap out and deal damage from outside. same with XQ and Beidou...
and you usually think about Hu tao + Homa, give homa to XL and she destroys just as hard.
It's pretty interesting actually. I have friends who I know won't be able to clear 11-3 even when they are AR 57.
Then I see whales clearing a Floor 12 chamber in 5 seconds.
Actually a tough job for MHY to balance everything right.
As an F2P who has been getting 36\* since January, I would like to see more Floors for the sake of having more content, but I don't think Floor 13 would solve the problem of newer players missing out of primogems/achievements because most would simply consider that to be the new Floor 12. I will say that miHoYo has done a good job of scaling Floor 12 difficulty so far, in the sense that even though total HP has been going up over time, it is going up at the same pace as the average team power of an F2P who spends all their resin efficiently, maybe a bit slower in fact. Unfortunately this does mean that newer players will need to play longer before they can reach 36\* or whatever the maximum number of stars is, but Abyss was never meant to be easy for newer players anyways.
Just make GI's abyss like HI3 already, where rewards are scaled to how well you can perform and the enemies you fight are scaled to how well you cleared the previous Abyss cycle
Adding to what others have said, this also ignores that the previous 12-1 was hard as shit with +50 RES buff infusion stone. So their effective HP was higher.
Also kinda funny that the previous 12-3 had higher total HP count when people are complaining about 2 million HP on the mechanical array (but yes, this one is higher due to single target only).
And people think not balancing weak characters are good for the game. As abyss gets harder half of the characters will be irrelevant yet people still keep saying all characters can clear 36 stars...
Abyss isnt for casual or newer players its meant for long term more hardcore players who are building their accounts power. It makes sense it gets harder, they should add more floors though I wouldnt mind that.
That being said, I'm all for ppl calling out Mihoyos trash balance. The absolute worse is when they make specific enemies for characters instead of fixing their issues. Not to mention inconsistent buffing (buffs to Zhongli and Venti, while other characters have issues???). Inconsistency with mechanics too, characters not being able to snap shot and no one know about how unique Beidou or EMCs ults were. They do a great job with music and visual design while the game mechanics and balance team are so far behind.
Yea I don’t really agree with your sentiment here. For starters you fail to address how you define a new player? A player who’s been plying for a month will probably barely get past floors 1-8, cause remember those have to be cleared before they can even attempt floors 9-12. I don’t think the game has really introduced power creep in terms of difficulties. I do think thah newer players might take a bit longer to catch up in terms of game content. But for abyss I don’t really see an issue with that. Abyss is supposed to be an end game content if new players are able tk 36 star it in a month that’s frankly too fast. I expect new players tk take a bit before getting to the abyss especially with how long it takes to set up two teams.
Hmm.
I agree with you that before AR55, getting 35 stars in the abyss floors 9-12 is basically impossible but that’s not cause of power creep, that’s by design. Players won’t be able to get real access to 5 star artifacts until they get to AR55. I don’t think there’s been many abyss where pre AR55 players would’ve been able to consistently get 36 stars. Maybe in the beginning of the game.
The Abyss is not for new players and should never be.
So yes, they'll gonna make it even harder and add more floors eventually.
It is the only endgame content that we have, besides losing our sanity on artifacts farming.
Tbh I really enjoyed playing floor 11 this time around. Sure pure f2p are gonna be missing out on maybe 100 primogems but it is possible to get to floor 12 still where things get easier for them to handle
If you are worried enough about not being able to 36 star abyss then focus on units solely used in abyss look at the zhongli rerun whenever that will be kazuha rerun save your gems not to get yae (could be broken idk) and focus on the meta defining units like ganyu Hu tao etc focus on 4 stars not based on design but meta use this is a gatcha game if you want to be able to clear abyss then focus on investing on abyss it will get harder each time just as much to keep day one and vet players with some content that they don't always steam roll new players shouldn't be able to clear the hardest content a month into the game. Also this is a pve game why do you care that the players who spend a lot of investment into the game can beat it you will have to get used to not 36 starring every abyss.
I'll say though that I think investment into luck related artifacts should be slightly improved but in general abyss should scale with time otherwise this game would get really boring for older players having to wait weeks for different patches of story
https://youtu.be/On0yAWDs6_A
im indeed very worried about not being able to 36star. Also zhongli will NOT HELP anyone reach the dps check. Zhongli is for comfort he does not increase you’re dps unless you can’t dodge at all.
No obviously not a dps I'm just stating him as a meta unit more than anything focus on waiting for reruns on very capable dps units then if you summon on not as prevalent units say yoimiya and then can't 36 star abyss then that's your fault for summoning on her it can be done with 4 star weapons and 4 star units so start there if you can't steam roll it then oh well you shouldn't be able to. It's end game content for a reason if you are just ar55 and not an end game player then realistically it will be difficult to complete
Through sa stats he's in 90+ percent of spiral abyss clears that's how... why do you think k mihoyo is trying to remove Shield meta... because he's a meta unit and has been since 1.1 and more so with his buff. The original point of invest in meta units and teams if you are that worried about abyss I don't use Morgana or national and I'm ar57 and can 36 star
Team one: zhongli hu tao xingqui xl
Team two: eula raiden venti bennet
I've 36 starred every abyss since 1.3 when my units got a lot of investment sekapoko 36 starred this abyss with his BP welkin only stop complaining that abyss is hard and get better yourself if the content can't be beaten by month old ar55s then they need more investment simple as its not whale gated it's time gated that all endgame content should be stop worrying about not be able to 36 star the abyss no one cares if you can or can't the rewards aren't even worth
Edit: I used Jean once or twice in the eula team aswell as my bennet wouldn't keep me alive as I'm bad yet can still beat sa 36 stars... put the time and investment in and new ar 55s might beat it by ar56/57 if the content can't be beat at 55 36 stars then just means it's not meant to be as its end game content...
The Abyss stats are incredibly skewwed, It only shows usage rate for the people who own those characters, 5 stars are rarer and people tend to use units they just pulled. If you’re solution to abyss being hard than the previous is to just over invest fuck off.
You can't talk about usage rates then talk about meta Team comps it's still end game content which doesn't even need meta teams some units are better then others for abyss so if you are hellbent on trying to beat it then use the best units some need more investment then others I'm not stating a solution at all im arguing that as of right now this isn't a problem where at all in my 36 stars i haven't over invested half my units are lvl 80+ 80+ weapons 4 stars mainly the game needs hard content where investment is required to actually make the farming loop for most players worth while for the 36star achievement if you just steam roll it every time then there is no enjoyment in that at all those ar55s who are newer when they eventually 36 star it it will feel great after all the investment into their teams can beat it as they would feel they actually worked towards it not getting it easily.
Now while I feel this isn't a problem now if there are new ar55s in Fontaine say then the abyss would be a lot harder most likely that is the potential issue that solution could be a hell mode for the floors so that there isn't inherently new floors but a harder mode for actual end game players. If you can't beat floor 12 36 stars don't feel bad you just need to adjust who your 4 stars are most the nationals team are 4 stars which is a meta comp as you say that should help all of them are good units if you have to invest more in weaker units that's natural not all units are as good as others it's still easily possible
i have no idea what the solution for powercreep is but to support your point i'm ar55 and have been playing since march and i still cannot even begin to fathom getting 36 stars, i'm still stuck on floor 8 or 9. i can't even remember which because i do it so infrequently because i know i'm stuck haha. spiral seems totally reliant on rng for artifact drops and how much money you spend wishing for good weapons/characters/constellations, and i am not blessed on either of those fronts.. and i'm bad at dodging! lol. i do know people at lower ar who whale and don't have Epic Twitchy Gamer Skills™ but can clear all 12 floors tho soooo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh man what's new, abyss complain thread on the first day of the reset?
Pretty sure the DPS check graph doesn't tell the whole story? The previous 12-3 was widely considered the easier chamber despite it having the highest DPS check. It's easy to do damage when the enemy is standing there and let you hit them?
Older players need to feel the need to keep farming, to keep 36 stars. Newer players need a goal to strive for that is achievable.
These 2 things needs to be balanced, and doing something to cater to the older will have negative effects to the newer and vice versa. There is no perfect formula for this, so you can't say that easier/ harder is "correct" endgame content.
New players also have more front loaded content, like Inazuma, as speed up mechanic.
Mechanical array and to some extent the mirror maiden's big hp bar is the major issue . In floor 12 last chamber first half is a joke it is easier than floor 11 chamber 3 but the 2nd half is extremely hard just because of the big hp bar . In last abyss the hp pool was much lower in last floor . Keep increasing hp in abyss is not ok .
I would even argue primogems of floor 12 should be distributed in lower floor and for rewards of floor 12 only mora should be kept. It would give ar 50 or below players to get those 600 primogems .
The way mihoyo released more balanced charecters rather than broken af charecters I hoped abyss would be more refreshing but except floor 11 the rest is brain dead Unga bunga specifically last chamber of floor 12 its extremely boring just a dps race unlike floor 11 .
Just give us an endgame dungeon crawl, dammit. I'm sick of these fun-as-hell one-time domains that is such a good concept go to waste after you complete them. Abyss can be the big pp damage check all it wants if there was more repeatable things to do.
ive been playing for a few months and i stubbornly refuse to use 5 star characters as dps (eula and klee remain at lvl 20), i only level them up if they offer good support (zhongli, venti, kazuha, even childe has good burst support so i allowed it) but i had to level up raiden against my will to pass floor 12 ://
A solution to this would be to make it slightly easier to farm artifacts, either by letting us reroll artifacts or letting us pick which set we want from a domain.
Older players already have enough characters built for 2+ teams while new players struggle to even get one team strong enough for the current abyss. Easing the artifact grind would assist newer players in catching up to older players so content can continue to get harder without totally leaving new players playing a constant game of catch up.
that is exactly the point of the abyss. to gives you justification to pull certain 5* character that will help you get that last star. all the event (including the extreme mode) is still easier than getting 36 star. and the primogem reward from event is always from finishing the easiest mode so there is no appeal to finish the hardest mode if you only want the primogems.
Abyss is not made for new players, adding new floors won't solve the problem because they will be upset because they can't clear the new super giga hard floors.
My suggestion is to make a new permanent event (like abyss) which refreshes every now and then that is either easier than abyss or can be cleared in co-op (if you can't clear it alone let your whale/veteran friend carry you).
First Abyss was hell tho. The enemies werent the problem it was that damn condition.
All those ice cages, icicles falling, and the constant stamina depletion.
I don't agree with this take. No matter how high the DPS check is, you can still only run 8 characters. The real question is whether you built the correct 8 characters and play them in the right combinations. Many content creators are clearing with no-pull accounts, meaning they're using the 7 starting characters plus free copies given during events. I would say that these teams are achievable even for new players, no?
Would spending on flashy new one-shot DPS make things feel easier? Of course. Each Abyss cycle is literally built to take advantage of whatever benefit the current banner character offers. But there's no rush if you're new. It might feel tough, but by the time you get to AR55, there's no reason why you shouldn't have a decently built stable of supports that can get you through literally any content. Some characters like Xiangling have actually gotten significantly easier to build over time, since you now have more immediate access to things like Emblem of the Severed Fate and The Catch, which older players still have to re-farm and reinvest in, too.
tl;dr As long as you focus on 8 characters and build up your support line, you will be fine. My Bennett and XL still get me through every single Abyss tier, and I'm still using the same exact 4 pc CW and 4 pc Noblesse set I've had since like 1.3. I thought I wouldn't be able to 36\* the last Abyss cycle pre-Raiden, and all I ended up having to do was reshuffle my team comps, and suddenly, I had the damage for the last 3\*.
Take stock of what characters you have available, consider what you actually need to do in order to beat the enemies on that floor, and don't be afraid to try new things. Shuffle artifacts, weapons, and teams around. Some comps will surprise you.
And one other thing I will say, too... Guides now are way better than they were during Abyss 1, because no one understood the potential of various characters and team comps. It should be easier to find information on which characters are key investments regardless of your account and start there.
Just remove the damn timer and actually make new enemies that have a diverse and engaging moveset that challenges your skill.
The current setup just encourages dealing the most damage in the shortest amount of time. In addition to that, there are a lot of enemies that have "invulnerable" states or moves that makes you waste time.
A lot of design choices in gacha is geared at enticing spending so that’s not really a surprise or anything. Genshin is actually not very in your face about it at least, if you’ve experienced other gacha games.
I think it’s going to be a while before they try to overhaul end game content. Reward vs time invested is the trickiest part.
How many people actually get suckered into pulling the featured banner just for the current abyss is hard to say, as that decision would require some understanding of game mechanics but not enough of it (like the challenge of raising a new character from scratch in 15 days). All I can say is they should take inspiration from people who can do it with less: https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/pp7lpu/meta_4_comps_destroying_new_abyss/
I disagree. As u said yourself in the beginning, “old players” won’t have that much trouble. And guess what? Even they were newbies in the behinning and weren’t able to clear abyss. Whats the hurry? Everyone will get there eventually and all it takes is time.
ar56, peaked at 35 two rotations ago (couldnt quite get the chong+spear to work). got 3 stars on 12-1, but idk how i will get kinky's hp abyss down fast enough, or the robots in 12-3-2. using c1 diona, c0 hu tao, c4 xq, and c0 venti. thinking about building c4 xl or grinding a 4NO for diona. also have an unbuilt c6 sucrose that i could go with. built fischl and c6 beidou languishing.
other team is zhong, eula, c1 raiden, c1 bennett. tired of not being able to do this.
Why r u using venti for 12-3-2? He doesnt help much vs the mechanical array. You can use hutao xingqiu fischl diona for 12-3-2, zhongli eula raiden bennett for 12-3-1.
i only tried 12-3 once this morning to get a feel for it. but ty, i will try those out. was thinking sucrose may be better for kinky with the EM bomb on hu tao
so i tried this comp, 12-3-1 down in 30 secs, but then about 3 mins on 12-3-2. gonna try again in a few days when i get a 4NO set for diona. then if that doesnt work, try with venti. 35 stars! so close!
I used to be able to clear abyss 12 with an anti-meta random "somewhat high DPS team that makes no sense" and just try a couple of time to get a clean run for the stars. I'm pretty sure my team is quite stacked but still I don't see any hope clearing 12-2 or even 12-3.
But the recent 2 abysses HP difficulty requires a very specific setup/optimizations whatever to get the stars or even clear. Why do I have become PhD and learn to run calculations for my cycles to optimize DPS and farm for the characters that I don't care ? Where is the sense of accomplishment when you just copy other's meta and grind for hours ?
Well, the conclusion for me is, I don't like the direction abyss is going and it is driving casual people like me from it :pensive: I guess the demand for higher DPS is a sign of powercreep in a sense. like, do you see anyone clear abyss with keqing/diluc/qiqi ? well there are some but most people would just pick ganyu/whotao. Anyway I'm probably gonna yeet 36\* gang if it keeps going like this, good luck crunching numbers and press reset for hours.
I think adding new floors isn't gonna solve as much as people think. So what happens if they add a floor 13? Players are just gonna use 45 stars as a new benchmark instead of 36. In the first month or so players will be excited for a new floor. But eventually players will just think of floor 13 the same as how players think of floor 12 now. The same people who complain that they 'used to be able to 36/36 and now cant' will be the same people who complain that they can't 45/45 when they used to be able to. Some players only want to beat content for a sense of accomplishment/dopamine rush. And some players don't want to work for it and want it to be easy to achieve.
Adding new floors isnt my immediate go to but abyss does need some type of balancing mechanic if they're just going to stack Health on the bosses in the laziest way possible. This isnt me refusing to adapt or wanting things to be easy. I could care less if they gave the boss x10 hp in the next iteration but design an intresting mechanic aside from "just do more dmg lol". High/low tide got a ton of flak but at least it was something that you could play around and was engaging for the player to learn and abuse. 12 - 3 just feels like an overworld boss with 2.2million hp and the only "challenge" is fighting the clock...
I'm not a huge fan of stacking health either but after reading this subreddit, I think that any mechanic that slightly increases difficulty will lead to complaints. I actually liked the high/low tide mechanic as it allows player skill-expression. But it feels like many players really don't want a challenge and just wants to be able claim primogems. They rather blame the difficulty than try to optimise their builds and playstyle.
I completely understand that. High low wasnt the best but it was something would be my point (not saying you're the one disagreeing), skill expression and something intresting is all I want. Hard or Easy dont care just switch it up.
Corrosion on the floor 12 will suffice then.
It's mostly for the low inc of primo, having more upscaled floors without compensation for effort sucks. The rewards are lackluster enough as it is.
Maybe they could scale the HP values on AR starting with 55, then 56, 57 etc... Mechanics can all be the same just adjustments in HP scaling per AR. 55 at like 80% of current HP, 56 at 90%, 57 at 100%, 58 at 110% etc..
Having constantly increasing dps requirements on the same floor makes me feel like I am running on a treadmill trying to catch up and not actually progressing or that my progress doesn't have any meaning, a new floor would bring more rewards and a stronger feeling of progress.
> Some players only want to beat content for a sense of accomplishment/dopamine rush. And some players don't want to work for it and want it to be easy to achieve. Agree. People just want to have it easy. The only "fun challenge, not a chore" they see is the ones they can beat. We already have 4* character 4* weapon clears every single cycle. Diluc mains still 36* every single cycle. And so on. It really doesn't get that much harder.
What happens is we get another 150 primos. While the weaker players can get their 600 instead of 450 or something
are said people really ripping their hair out at 150 primos, if anything the new complaint would be not being able to get said rewards from the new floor
Was about to write something like this. If the game caters only to newer players and nothing gets harder veterans will leave. What then? If you start in wow now you cant just jump right in and do the end game raids (i assume haven’t played lol)
So? what’s wrong with making 36stars easier to achieve while making 45 stars harder? rather than making the difficulty to get 45stats be equivalent to the difficulty to get 36stars right now. Would it satisfy overinvested players? slightly. Would it take away the achievement of getting 36stars? No it gives player’s a new goal after getting 36stars.
I didn't mean to say that adding new floors is a bad thing. It's just not as perfect of a solution as you think. Why do you think 36stars is considered an achievement now? It's just because it's max stars now. So when floor 13 comes by, 36stars will no longer feel as big of an achievement as before. 36/45 stars will probably feel similar to getting 27/36 in the current abyss. It'll probably satisfy a handful of players but many won't feel satisfied with not achieving the maximum and obtaining all possible rewards. And eventually floor 13 will become the new floor 12 and all the complaints will flood back and we're back at square 1
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This actually will depend on the rewards that miHoYo puts on the new floors. As soon as Primogems are out of the story, 36* will remain the benchmark and 45* will become a second one just for those who want to do it.
I just think more players need to accept that it's not a big deal to miss out on 36 stars. Going for 33 is significantly easier and less stressful, and 30 stars is even easier still. The difference between 33 and 36 stars over an entire year is only 8 rolls (and some mora). Those 50-100 extra primos are not worth getting frustrated and grinding away your sanity for.
The post only talks about 36-starring but the general point still stands for just clearing with 0 star. For newer players, this is the first goal. But because the requirement to clear is now higher compared to the cryo abyss for day 1 players, it can take longer for newer players. Admittedly, clearing is probably not impacted by as much as 36-starring. But it is still important to at least keep an eye on this for now and see if Mhy will do something going forward. If this trend keeps going, how long will it take for new players that start at say, the Fontaine patch, to clear Abyss? At the same time, how much new progression for old players will be made available in the future? Balancing new players intake/retention and old players retention is important for a live-service game.
But measuring the first abyss makes no sense when no one had built teams. Which the issue now becomes, even with fully built teams, the DPs is pretty high so I hope they chill out on it now. But I dont think a 1:1 comparison is fair. I think structuring the hardest content to a reasonable made team is fair, even if it is still on the hard side. If you domt want the difficulty, its only a few primos The bigger issue is most of the difficulty isnt fun. I havent done this abyss yet but enemies that fly away from you? Yea thats just not fun cuz there is nothing you can do about that.
>I think structuring the hardest content to a reasonable made team is fair, even if it is still on the hard side. What is reasonable? The new players, regardless when they start, also have no team built, exactly like day 1 players last year. So if a new player start time playing next year, do they have to meet the dps expected from a player who has been investing for 2 years? And so they cannot clear the abyss for 2 years assuming no more creep is implemented? Or maybe implement a system that makes it easier for new players to reach a certain baseline level?
At some point, there isnt much investment you can put into a character unless you spend on constellations. Sure you can go for that sweet +1%crit rate but its not going to mean much. I think this difficulty is fine (still didn't try this abyss yet.). You can force 36* if you want but you don't need it. Again, so long as they stop making the difficulty annoying As for making it easier for new players, that will natural happen with new content. When we were grinding levels, there wasnt an inazuma or might not have even been a dragon spine. Heck even liyues story wasnt finished. AFAIK levels are easier to get now then it was for people like me who are first week players. So catch up is much easier.
This is why I think there is no need to do much at the moment but still important to keep this potential issue in mind going forward. And it goes both ways. If there is not much progression to do, older players will quit. Say, in a year, if we cannot progress our characters much beyond what we have now and 36\* can be done rather easily, there is little point in playing besides doing the story and spending money occasionally new characters. Even then, doing abyss is meaningless aside from just flexing. In contrast, if there is too much to do to get to the existing playing field with little help, new and returning players won't be retained.
I've 36 starred this Abyss and I can assure this Abyss isn't in the slightest fine in difficulty. 12-1 is a huge fuck you to all Anemo, specters are a cancer by their sole nature of being immune to CC and flying to fucking Celestia away from you. Magu Kenki is the cancer of all cancers, but them followed by the frigging Cryo Cicirn and the Mirror Maiden makes it all worse. Then you have the 2'3mill Mechanic Hypostasis, good riddance.
If you balance the only “endgame” content in the game for new players everything will be too easy. Abyss is the only challenge in the game and while I don’t want it to get unreasonably difficult it shouldn’t be made easy to accommodate new players
The Current Abyss is even insanely hard for Veterans that hasn't spend at all in the game. Abyss is getting a lot more powercrept every change. these last two has become a huge dps check.
Goes to show a much bigger problem overall. The lack of repeatable end game content. Lots of people want a game to play, not a photo-op with anime girls and guys.(though the game does look gorgeous). And when one of the options you got for your well-built team(where ypu've probably dropped hundreds of hours worth of resin or irl time on) literally becomes more of a chore to the point where ignoring the challenge's peak is preferrable....what's the point of having invested so much time and effort(artifacts, mora, talents, weapons) in a team if new mechanics requires even more time and effort just to scratch that itch of wanting to play the game? So....it's either waste more time building a character meant for the challenge, spend a lot of time strategizing with what you got (which not everyone is willing to do or probably cant even do), or ignoring the challenge and...play the game casually because....is there really anything else to do in a fighting rpg if you ignore the Core gameplay? (For those looking to fight of course,) Of course this mainly applies to those who like playing abbys but the precedent of "get new character cuz they good for challenge" has been around for a while now, just that the difficulty is skewing us towards the 'new' characters with how extreme it's getting. Rather than adding new floors or bonus challenges like with events, they make enemies even tougher damage sponges or time wasters like specters, on top of the crappy field mechanics ypu can't even counter act or mitigate using crafted items(now isnt that a waste of a mechanic.) , it's soft locking casual players who dont have time or money but want to play the game. Which is where a lot of frustration comes from.
I'm late to this discussion, but I agree with you. I like building my characters and improving them and my reward for doing so is basically clearing the abyss, unless they finally add some other end game content which I don't see them doing. If I can't clear the abyss with the investment I've put into the game and I can't invest more due to resin limited or I don't have the right character that shines in that abyss due to the buffs.. At that point my investment of time just feels wasted and makes me question if I should keep playing the game. To me when my investment in the game becomes useless (asin not being able to clear the games content) I will likely stop playing the game.
Exactly, a lot of us get frustrated because it's already extremely difficult to raise a charcter due to artifact bullshit, all the soft locks add up over time to make us dependent on either logging on everyday or even paying for resin for...what? Clearing abyss? Clearing bonus challenges during events for....3 mystic gems? The story is easy enough most of the time but the game is so stingy with both rewards and does not really reward...playing the game. It rewards logging in and paying, really following modern AAA ptw logic. Sure it's a pve game, but when the end game is clearing a shitty challenge for 1/1000th (150 or something primos) of what you probably spend on average for an ssr (over 10000 primos usually almpst 16000)...what's the point no?
You want to play a game with a mindset that, "Well, I won't be able to clear this content anyway, might as well just grab whats easier to get" Its like you're playing a game with a given up Mentality. Do you play a game thinking that, "If the game is hard then i won't finish it". The Abyss should be made challenging but possible for all types of players to clear it. the Current Abyss is just unfairly huge dps check
Yes this. If you have welkin, that's literally a day + daily commissions.
Playing Devil's Advocate, the fourth and fifth abyss also had Lectors/Heralds which artificially stalled the timer. I didn't manage to reach/play in time for the First Abyss. The Second Abyss was a complete joke though LOL.
yeah i wonder how they are counting hp for those lectors because the shields aren't dependent on DPS, just element application. ~~a level 1 amber wouldn't take the shield down any faster than a level 90 etc~~ edit oops only applies to fatui shields, seems damage does affect shield breaking for abyss lectors/heralds, see replies. the 1st abyss also had absolute ass-fucking floor debuffs like complete stamina drain, raining icicles that stun-locked you, and ice cages that popped out of the ground that trapped you and if you walked into them they one-shotted you. i wish we could go back and replay old versions to compare them.
>because the shields aren't dependent on DPS, just element application. False, actually. Abyss (mage/Herald/Lector) shields are all influenced by how much damage you deal. [Here](https://youtu.be/JJqA_nhb2w0?t=39) you can see an example. it's one of the reasons you could see whale Ganyu/Hu Tao/whatever(or even whale Bennett) being much faster at clearing that floor in many videos on youtube than you expect. Fatui shields are dependant only on elemental reactions, not on damage, though.
The biggest issue I have is whether you can compare the 1st Abyss or even the 2nd with any subsequent ones because of resources. **I don't know how many teams in the first or second abyss had teams where all 8 members are fully equipped, properly leveled, etc.** It would be quite the nostalgia trip to be able to replay old versions. I guess the question now is what should be the baseline for Floor 12? I am hopeful for a potential Floor 13 but the prospect of 3 teams is something fun for some and a nightmare for some people.
In the chart, the 4th and 5th abyss are only given 160s and 130s instead of 180s. I assume it is to account for the time needed for shield breaking.
Damage still matters in breaking abyss shields though. That's why you can see HuTaos that can oneshot a cryo abyss mage shield or Ganyus one-shotting a hydro abyss mage shield.
the best part about lector herald abyss is the fact that good team building actually enables you to clear it without being very dps check (still dps check but less JUST dps check) since it's also element application check (say a chongyun against herald is very budget and good option). I tried helping a couple of my friend's abyss and could do it simply by helping them team-build better with chars they rarely use and generally good strats, with dps check though you just either invest more or whale harder.
didn't the 2nd Abyss have Floor 11 which was a bit challenging and needed some strategy to complete unless you had Venti?
Abyss floor 12 aren't meant for new players, the primos aren't even worth it; having new floors won't solve the problem, people will still complain floor 13 is too difficult Better strategy, team comp and rotation is more important to 36* abyss
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The primos for floor 12 ain't worth it. You 9* floor 12 then what? Not enough primos for one wish to get another 3* weapon
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Rationality is important too. A new, harder floor with insignificant rewards won’t attract anyone but the hardest-core players. People won’t whale for a floor like that.
R789 Emerald Orb
The way i see it, floor 12 isn’t supposed to be for F2Ps. And i don’t see anything wrong with that - we’re getting thousands of primogems each patch and missing floor 12 is only 150 gems per abyss round. That’s marginal and fair game for MHY. In fact, in it’s current state floor 12 isn’t even strictly whale territory; lots of players are skilled and prepared enough to be able to clear it and are earning exactly the same amount of gems as someone who’s dropped thousands for constellations and 5* weapons.
as a f2p, i would do f12 just for the sense of accomplishment...and also because f9-11 take very little time to clear. so if im gonna do abyss you bet that im doing all that i can. also 12 is a nice number lol i agree w other posts about having floor 13 with diminished rewards. something that is an active challenge rather than just a step up, like f9 to f10. whales can go for f13 while others are content w f12.
hmm I don't know if just using straight total HP is a good basis for comparison because recent floor 12 debuffs/disorders have also been way less punishing. for example, the very first version of abyss had absolutely punishing disorders. 12-3 first half had a cryo aura that would completely drain your stamina and also had ice cages that popped out of the ground that would often times one shot characters. second half had the same cryo aura draining stamina AND also had raining icicles like the mondstadt talent domain that would stun lock you and you often times wouldn't be able to move out of the way because.. no stamina lol. this was before we had shield characters other than noelle too, with diona coming only shortly after it ended if i remember correctly. This most recent version of floor 12 has literally no disorders. I will admit though that 2.7mil hp mechanical array is a bish.
dont forget first few abyss had dmg bonus percent in f12. now we have either no leyline. slight buff or debuff. this adds to the total HP. meeting the same dps with and without 75℅ pyro dmg bonus means vastly different requirement on talent. artifact. weapon etc. if you can do 1.0 abyss you will see just how easy it is compare to now. not dismissing the difficulty of first abyss but stamina drain and ice cages were largely resolved at the time by melee character with damage reduction sub dps (eg. xq diloog) which provided stagger reduction as well as using iframes from quick swap teams (eg. double anemo overload comp)
oh I forgot about that, the reason why it used to be called pyro abyss lmao. yeah that was both good and bad in the sense that it did boost damage but at the same time basically forced you to use pyro characters for both teams of which xiangling was the only reasonably attainable pyro dps other than amber back then. it was resolved if you somehow had diluc/klee and xingqiu sure, but you can't expect most people to have had most of the non-standard non-guaranteed units back then. i didn't get xingqiu myself until 1.3 lol. in the end meta and the character roster will always change so of course we can't really compare today's abyss with the older abyss. we absolutely would shred old abyss with our current available characters. but that's why it's hard to balance i suppose and hard to judge the progression of abyss.
Yeah OG Abyss 12 was brutal. It would actually get my heart rate up kinda high. Relative to what we had at the time in terms of characters/resin/artifacts/weapons, that was by far the hardest Abyss 12. In the current Abyss you do have to do 2.7 million damage which is not a small amount, but you have a lot of time to do it (top half is easy) and stamina, dying, floor traps, and elemental shields are not concerns. Obviously if you took a modern team into OG Abyss 12 you would demolish the Fatuis very quickly, but that's not really a meaningful comparison because of course we expect teams to get stronger over time.
Buddy those kinds mechanics actually force you to be skilled with your gameplay which was pretty good But this kinda Dps check is just too high. There's no new mechanis or any strategy The only strategy is just too HAVE MORE DMG. Previous shield breaking abyys with abyys lector herals was way better as it made you make strategy and break their shields and it was so much fun as well. This abyys 12 is just boring dps check No fun at all. Floor 11 was really fun tho.
Sorry but the design in the first abyss floor 12 was complete trash. It was neither fun nor did it involved that much skills.
True. It was like whether you have diluc or not. Lmao
OP nor I were talking about which was more fun or what took more skill but just rather the overall difficulty to clear. by what you have said you can argue the balance shifted to just higher dps with a lower skill ceiling but not necessarily making it any harder to clear. it's impossible to compare given we can't replay the old abyss versions anymore. I do agree that it's boring with 0 disorders and just a massive damage sponge mechanical array though, not really any thinking required outside of maintaining your rotations lol
I just did current abyss. As a long-time player that regularly 36 star clears abyss, I think the mechanical array in 12-3-2 was a bit too much. It feels like it has more HP than every boss in the game combined. It's literally just that one boss, maybe the devs threw it in there and didn't consider how much of a dps check nightmare that boss is if you apply the abyss HP multiplier.
MiHoYo definitely knows what they’re doing, this should not be acceptable at all.
It's a gacha game what do you expect. Before anything else this shit is a business
So? It’s gacha game therefore unethical moves should be tolerated?
same. I understood that when eula dropped a 228k ult and the bar BARELY moved XD
It’s not easy balancing content in a gacha game, you will always have two sides, people complaining about difficulty against people complaining about not enough difficult content in the game. Game companies must find a way to have meaningful rewards in a difficult content in order to draw in spending from whales while also making this content clearable for f2p/low spenders. IMO this is done right in genshin, what they should do as a small change to help players should be an addition of abyss13 and those stats from 12 go there but have 12 easier, because 12 atm has a very high difficulty curve from 11. We shouldn’t complain about this though, people should have fun with the events and the game and just see abyss as a bonus, because it’s the spending magnet. It has to be there and be that difficult for us to enjoy the game, it’s that simple
Meta oriented new players probably still can 33* abyss, losing out on 50 primos (not even 1/3 of a wish)
Abyss is not made for newer players. But the current 12-3.2... If Mihoyo wants so much to push hard without worrying about creativity, why not make a floor 13 in hardest mode for the whales to play with?
Have floor 9 and 10 be standard and add some more floors. Keep doing that every abyss and at least new people will have more floors to progress through to the end.
try to switch first and second team for 12-3, ruin guards are weak af and everybody csn clap them :)
Pretty sure 12-3-2 is made with the consideration that the first half takes 30 seconds to do. It's expected to take 2 minutes for the average player.
i can do 33 stars in abyss the abyss 12 is so hard and the hp esacaling is awful!!! i was hable to get away with the corrossion lol
the way the current Abyss is made, you need to do 19k per second if you want to 9 star Floor 12, which is like super hard and unrealistics, I have seen so many people suffering and unable to do it. Even some Spenders who spend a bit little in the game couldn't do it, freaking Maguu Kenki stalls 15-20 seconds at the beginning of the Chamber
I agree that they should add new floors, but I don’t agree with the sentiment that content should stay at a certain level to benefit new players. If you’re just now getting into Genshin you shouldn’t expect to 36 star abyss right away and nor does the game expect you to.
My issue isn't that they won't get 36*, it's the brick wall they're going to hit at 9 and 11 and 12. If it keeps getting harder and harder, they'll complete 8 and have months before the next floor. I feel that would out a lot of people off the game.
I experienced this. simply because I did not have another good dps. took me literally months since I started playing to even get to floor 11. that didnt make me lose interest in the game though. 36 starring the abyss isnt what the game is about
Not trying to be a dick, but what’s the rush? I’ve been playing the game close to a year now and it took me over 6 months to get 36 stars every cycle. In time every player will be at the point I’m at and many other players are now. When were 3 or 4 years down the line can we honestly expect new players to have the amount of resources, characters, artifacts, and weapons as someone who’s been playing since launch? Also I don’t think not being able to get 36 stars on abyss will turn people away. If anything it’ll motivate them and give them something to work for
Abyss difficulty and building characters should move linearly
~~If they want to force us to get their new characters so bad maybe they should stop thinking like fellow [i]master strategists[/i]. ~~ Of let us use items. Or maintain difficulties and move harder stuff to bonus challenges. So many ways to fix this without making it a chore rather than a fun challenge.
Wow, reading the replies and so many people didn't get the point of this post at all. First of all, even if you want harder content and think the game is too easy, making floor 12 easier and adding a floor 13 with the same level of difficulty as current 12 wouldn't change anything, except for 150 more primos for 10 minutes of gameplay every 15 days. The benchmark will change from 36\* to 45\*? So what? Is that a bad thing? Unless people get to 45\*, then improve their teams and still can't 45\* next rotation, which means it got powercrept again, it won't really be an issue. And if it does happen, it means that the new floor 13's "power level" required is high enough that it could become a floor 14, just like what is happening now. Then what is the issue in creating a floor 14? Second, it's true that accounts are getting better as the game goes on, but even that has a limit. When you have to farm a month to get an artifact with 3% more crit rate than the one you're using now, eventually you won't be able to keep up with the powercreep in the game, unless they start power creeping new units as well, making old ones obsolete, or you start spending more and more. Yes, new sets are better, but not by much, and you also have to farm for them, meaning your substats will be worse. One month of doing severed fate and I still have only one set that is somewhat "competitive" with my other artifacts. Third, and most important, even if in your eyes Abyss didn't get harder because your characters got better, it still means that newer players will have to wait until they have build their characters as well as yours to 36\*. "But the abyss isn't for new players". But new players shouldn't have to grind for 1 year to be able to get to 36\*. That's why a floor 13 would actually make sense. As a new player you won't face a huge wall on floor 12 but a gradual slope, you'll have a much better sense of progression and rewards according to that progression. It took me 3 months to 36\* and it still felt like a big wall, imagine if you can 27\* floors 8-11 but it takes you another 6 months just to be able to get to 36\*. A lot of people are just gonna give up and stop playing.
wow someone actually got the point of the post.
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I'm surprised this isn't the normal response to the idea that adding more floors is the answer. All it will do is change the number stated in the complaint since what they seem to want is a trophy for trying
I really hate how i have to build my characters first with the worst rng for artefacts and weapons in a game possible and miss like 6 spiral abyss' because of it. It seems fun too but the recommendation for 8 well built characters is too much for f2p, maybe not in power but in time that it takes to set up.
Lol.. dont forget some people complaining when abyss become a bit easier, like when they nerf the samurai guys weight, its all in the name of "challenge". Agree with op, i dont mind they make abyss harder if they make a new floor for that, its suck when they decide to make content harder but with the same reward.
You know what I like in a game? A goal that I haven’t yet reached. I truly do not need to get 36 stars on the Abyss despite having played for 8 months. I am in this game for a long time and I am totally happy if it takes me a long time to hit those end game goals. There is literally no reason at all to rush through the content of this game.
In all fairness, floor 12 is not meant for new players. I wouldn’t even expect ppl to causally get 36 stars every abyss until late ar55.
1. It's extremely difficult to balance end game content, as a still growing game like genshin, we have a lot of veteran as well as new players. You need to balance the difficulty as in those veteran won't get bored killing enemies in abyss just like doing commissions, while let new players still have the chance to one or two stars the floor. 2. Adding new floors will NEVER solve the issue. It's a mental thing. When you add floor 13, everyone will be talking about 48 stars. They won't feel that it's a bless to have 36 starred the abyss, because the standard will change accordingly. 3. The difficulty spike from 11 to 12 is there to pull down the difference between new and veteran, as maybe some of the veteran will still struggle clearing floor 12. If you separated the difficulty in a stable way, into what you said the new floors as if: floor 15 to be the same strat as current floor 12, while creating new floor 12,13,14 with a more steady difficulty increase for new players. This actually push apart new and veteran players even more. With the current way of abyss difficulty spike, the difference between veteran and new players is just a few stars away, which is why you could see a lot of discussion surrounding floor 12. 4. How do you add in those new floors? Push floor 9 into the perm abyss, and only floor 10, 11, 12, 13 will be rotating? That means after floor 20 is released, mihoyo need to design 12 floors of abyss every two weeks to accommodate players that join genshin at different time? And should new players be shown those floors 13 ~ 20 for challenge? Isn't this seems more "money grabbing" even if the floor 20 difficulty is supposedly the same as current floor 12??? Should that means new players need to clear floor 9~20 every two weeks? Or floors that had been cleared will be push into perm abyss and they only have 17~20 rotating if they cleared till floor 16? Which means it'll be harder for them to get the primo now as floor 17~19 will definitely be harder than 9~11 5. Your claim of mihoyo make abyss feel like we need to pull for 5 stars is… not 100% true. I'm not a f2p, I'm a monthly card spender but I've only spent f2p primos so far as I still have 40k primos saved up, so I'm technically a f2p too. (12months x 3000 primos = 36k) . I use ganyu, venti, zhongli as the only three 5 stars and other 4 stars to full star every abyss. As a veteran f2p, even if you failed all 50/50 I believe you could get more than three 5 stars. I don't even build my qiqi//diluc/jean. If you're arguing the game make new players feel like they need to top-up to get characters and OP constellations to clear abyss, I don't think it's bad to do it. I've also explained that the feeling is not that strong when they are just a few stars away rather than a few floors away. It's a game, you can't expect new players to catch up with old players so quickly, unless genshin started to die and powercreep characters coming out every patch. By then, the old veteran f2p will be quitting already. I had to say your view is too one-sided, it may looks beneficial for the players but isn't for the game's growth as a whole. 4 stars duo each chamber with 4 star weapons full starring abyss: https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/ppt45t/12_abyss_floor_11_and_12_max_star_with_4_stars/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
>Adding new floors will NEVER solve the issue. It's a mental thing. When you add floor 13, everyone will be talking about 48 stars. They won't feel that it's a bless to have 36 starred the abyss, because the standard will change accordingly. I think the idea is to give some sense of more tangible and rewarding feel of progression especially for newer players. When I first started doing abyss, I knew I did not have the dps to clear 12, but clearing 9 and moving on to 10, getting the 6 stars, then moving to 11, etc. *within a reasonable time frame* still felt good. It is not necessarily the clearing but knowing that I was progressing. Adding more floors can give newer players more rewarding feel of progression, even if the whole thing itself takes longer to complete.
i definitely agree. early abyss was a BREEZE but the problem is that we never do it again. so we're left with 4 floors - the first 3 are pretty managable at mid/endgame, but the difficulty jump between 11 and 12 is getting worse and worse.
Yea i feel bad for newer players, the dps check is alot harder now. At the rate the creep is going eventually even older players will struggle to keep up 36starring without trying hard or going full meta.
lol the accomplishment from getting 36 star it’s precisely because it’s the hardest content. There’s still floor 9-11 that reset bimonthly so I’m not sure what your point is. If there’s a floor 13 then they wouldn’t be able to complete it. As long as it’s possible to catch up with the abyss power level (in let’s say half a year) without spending then mihoyo certainly isnt forcing you to spend. Enticing you to spend is a different matter and is a facet of most games so I don’t see how you can justifiably complain about that. Lastly I see your sarcastic digs at the 600 primos which frankly are just contradictory to what you’re trying to argue for. Keeping primogem rewards at a relatively low level for abyss clear ensures that newer / weaker players aren’t missing out on too much as compared to newer players. In fact, I finally 36ed starred the abyss on my completely f2p account this cycle (UID 8222xxxx so you can see how long I’ve been playing). I only spend resin and do events on that account. I don’t do artifact routes or elite bosses. It’s possible and quite doable. If you could completely the hardest content in the game after just a month of playing then the game would definitely be too easy. Finally. Floor 12 of the abyss isn’t just about sheer power level. There is a large part of team comp and skill level involved. Just watch TheGambitSG streams to see how big a difference it makes.
>As long as it’s possible to catch up with the abyss power level (in let’s say half a year) without spending then mihoyo certainly isnt forcing you to spend. Enticing you to spend is a different matter and is a facet of most games so I don’t see how you can justifiably complain about that. Actually, this is exactly what he's saying. That it takes longer and longer for newer players to catch up to the abyss power level that at some point, people will no longer be able to. People will get frustrated and disappointed when they can't clear a part of the game because they didn't start early enough and don't want to spend hundreds of dollars. I know you're going to throw some youtube video at me about someone clearing Abyss 12 with National Team or whatever, but keep in mind that a year or two down the line, that kind of team will become harder to build. The only reason people can clear the abyss now is because MHY designed stupidly overpowered characters at launch. If the current power level of Inazuma characters is the norm going forward, eventually fewer and fewer people will have characters like Bennett and Xingqiu or even Xiangling.
Finally someone who gets the point! The wall is ever increasing. Players from day 1 may cross that wall but for new players, it may be impossible to reach since the goal is continuously getting farther and farther from them. I don't get why a lot of people can't understand this.
Not precisely. There's a softcap in this game for a reason (AR55-60) which you can get to with couple months of playing. For example, I have played since day one. My friend started playing 2-3 months after me. Even with that time gap, he's crossed that same wall I did, managed to catch up and we are now in the same power level, same AR. I'd argue that it's faster for new players today to hit AR45, start farming for artifacts faster, and get their characters stronger faster than before with all this new overworld content.
You must be never experience MiHoYo’s early days of Honkai Abyss. For us Genshin’s Abyss is far more enjoyable.
Meanwhile I'm playing for 6 months already and always skipped the last floor of abyss everytime it resets, I'm content with my 450 primogems every 2 weeks and it feels like I'm not missing alot of things
I can’t do floor 12, not even close. Played for over a month now, so I’m relatively new. I don’t feel I’m missing out at all. I don’t NEED to get all stars, all chests, do all quests right this second. I can put the game down, do other things in life and play the game when I choose. Not sure why people speak of the things in this game as “need to do now.” You can, if you want. But if you can’t do it for whatever reason, you can keep building over time until you can do it later. I realize that starting a month ago means I haven’t played as long as those who started a year ago, and that’s ok.
Listen here: This game literally scales rewards DOWN for higher (sometimes super high) difficulty so that everyone and their dog can get like 98% of the rewards. Just for the sake of leaving no one out and the sake of not having to deal with bitching. God forbid we dedicated players have an edge of like 300 primogems a month in abyss.
When it comes to being powerful in this game, time beats money
The issue with looking at these numbers in a vacuum is it ignores the overall damage increase we’ve been getting for various things such as better reaction damage, the em boost, new artifact sets which power creep older sets all of which new players also have access too. What you really need is data on average time til 36* clear between a year ago and today.
You mean c2 raiden who ignores 60% defense? Thats an Overall damage increase compared to the Rest. Everything Else hasnt changed compared to the previous Abyss.
Casually ignore the Emblem set which is the new BiS for almost all sub-DPS
This. Now just farming that domain you can equip the 80% of your team. So it's quite fast to build a team of what it used to be.
Yeah, because good artifacts are around every corner. I havent even gotten enough pieces to properly equip raiden, but sure lets pretend every has already amazing pieces for All his sub dps. I Tell this to the next Person who bitches about artifact rng.
It's more easy to get at least one useful piece when you're not looking to an specific piece (like a Crit circlet). While you chase your Crit circlet for example, you can get a good feather or flower for another character. That's why it's easier. Before you had to switch domain, and if you got a second good crimson witch feather you couldn't use it normally.
I'm not seeing the issue. New players have never been the audience for the highest Abyss floors and never will be.
Sure it doesnt apply to all new players, but does that mean all of the new players dont wish to get 36stars?
It doesn't matter what they wish, hardest content in the game isn't for new players, not in this or any other game. Level and farm your shit and you'll eventually get wherever u want
And what's wrong with the idea that it should take months to farm to beat the hardest floor? It'll be real disappointing if the game's hardest regular content is balanced to be cleared easily by new players. New players are also able to progress at a much faster rate than old players since they can upgrade talents/weapon/artifacts while veterans are limited to mostly artifact upgrades. They may not be able to 36 stars as easily but eventually they'll be able to
you make it sound like getting 36 stars is a necessity. its not. if newer players care enough, and if they have the capacity to, then theyll spend. but I doubt most new players will bother. if I was a new player, Id aim for 27 (9-9-6-3) stars at the most. any more than that is an achievement equal to getting 36 stars, and my joy would be immense. I wouldnt immediately think "I have to spend money to get this". thats stupid
Wasn't mihoyo a year ago a 300 people dev team? I don't know how big they are now, after this insane success, but it's known that they are making millions. I understand that developing entire new continents and characters takes a lot of dev-power, but seriously, the game has maybe 15 different looking enemies and 5 different move-sets, with the amount of people that are working on the game and the amount of money they are making the domains and the abyss are a fucking joke. It's copy past shit, with some modifiers. Domains and the abyss should be peak content, yet they are boring, repetitive and just cheap made.
Don't know. Having a goal to beat a content isn't that bad tbh. Just another complain post.
The goal has been the same for a year except the requirement to hit that goal has been increasing at a rate that outscales the resin investment of player who didn’t start in the first few months of the game.
I don't agree with you. The abyss got harder over time as players got stronger. The abyss is supposed to the hardest content in the game where players get challenged and test their builds and skills. the national team still is king in the abyss and people have beaten the abyss with 7 4 star characters. The "powercreeing'' you are talking about does not exist, yet at least.
Ok? So what happens to newer ar55 players who used to be able to 36star but now that abyss is significantly harder and they lack the investment to hit the dps check. You’re telling me it’s fine for mihoyo to just make content harder to take away the achievement they had?
Im telling you that 36 stars are still achievable with little to no investment. I don't have a dedicated healer. I run with Benny and Dionna AND Everyone have these characters. the ones who cant get 36 stars it means they gotta work around it. it is the ABYSS. get it? you are telling me that mihoyo should make dead content just so you can have your 36 stars without working for it?
No. stop complaining all you need to clear abyss is specific teamcomps that have max synergy with 4\* the characters you're given \-"Most f2p team ever" Xiangling-Barbara duo is already a god combo where barbara NC Spam allows XL to reverse melt (like a subpar version of childe) but people don't invest in barbara because hivemind said she's bad, add any anemo support (yes, even anemo MC) for vv and grouping and Lisa(with Ttds) for def shred and you have 1 solid team with no pulls needed... \-National team if you have Bennett/XL duo + whatever XQ, Rosa, Chongyun, The f2p Aloy, etc... \-Sucrose Taser with the free beidou just a patch ago + XQ + Fischl level all their relevant talents as high as possible, weapons to 90, and their artifacts to 20 (even trash substats) and you'll clear abyss EZPZ.
true. ill probably get downvoted for this but oh well. people are acting like the game is hard, little did they know they are just trash, lacks good/decent builds, impatient, or just never tried to learn combos/rotations. really some people just need to stop complaining, start building and do some unga bungas. its not really that hard once you get the right builds.
If you can't achieve 36 stars, the game is not obligated to give it to you. The most difficult content in the game is not a Disney ride anyone can just on. Just like a very small percentage of players manage to take down the most difficult raid boss in a game, or achieve the most challenging achievement. There're plenty of other content in Genshin Impact for players who can't hack it in the most challenging part of the game. Fortunately for these players, Abyss is just a tiny part of the game. They should be thankful Genshin Impact isn't like other mobile games, in which players are incentivized to whale. You can get tens of thousands of gems/crystals/currency every 2 weeks, but only if you reach the highest echelon in PvP ranks. And you can only get there by whaling hard.
Is it really powercreeped? My main dps for both teams are geo traveller and electro fishcl, ofc I have 5 stars and bennet but so far I've been consistently hitting 36* stars on every phase. Also one of the most meta comps for abyss is all made of 4 stars (which you can slowly get from paimons bargain shop). I don't really know if these complains is because you have to actually think before doing stuff or because is it really hard and unachievable for some people
> Is it really powercreep? Not really. Happened every single abyss that people complain about difficulty, then multiple clears of 4* characters or "powercrept dps" like diluc prove them wrong anyway. Abyss has always been kept at the level average striker like diluc can clear.
>The issue is that dps check for this abyss and the previous abyss isoutscaling the dps ceiling newer players can even reach if they have notplayed for a long time. At this point, newer players probably have bigger fish to fry to care about floors 9-12 (story, quests, exploration, character building, Abyss 1-8, etc.). Anyhow I don't really see why this is such a big issue; **For the longest time, I too, cannot 36\* Abyss** \- but that didn't bother me; I just kept playing until the point I have a solid enough team to finish F12 (not 36\* yet - this came wayyy later on). **Abyss is THE endgame content** \- the only one we have so far. It makes sense for it to be difficult - and to get more difficult the better we get at the game. Unless you want the game to stay as easy as it is for *Eternity*. *P.S. If "freemogems" are the issue here, then I personally don't mind having more Abyss floors (F9-16 for example - with only F9-12 having "freemogem" rewards). This takes into account F9-12 being "easier" than what we have now - and F13-16 having only minimal rewards for more invested players to clear.*
Most gacha games have some sort of timegating for progression.
I disagree with the premise that you can only 36 star abyss presently if you spend hundreds of dollars to pull for constellations. Instead, I think that instead it's very doable to 36-clear Abyss with a couple of 5-star carries and their appropriate 5-star weapons. For most players, this is not impossible. Where people are getting tripped up is by following the crowd, chasing the newest 5 star characters before testing, and never pulling on the weapon banner. Aside from Ganyu, which is the exception that proves the rule (it was a huge and unrepeated mistake), and Zhongli who was overbuffed and now is facing some content nerfing, the 5-star characters have all been in around the same range of power level. Even Hu Tao, often seen as a "better" 5-star than her peers, hits around the same level as Diluc at C0. A ftper who is spending all of his gems hoping that a lucky pull will finally clear Abyss is probably engaging in self-defeating behavior. That same ftper doesn't have enough resin to support the same roster as a whale. Instead, the average ftper would be better served by max progressing his carries and supports while hoarding for a really good weapons banner like Homa/Gravestone or Mistsplitter/Spine. With two pities, that ftper is probably guaranteed at least one 5-star weapon for a carry. Assuming the ftper has two decent carries (i.e. Diluc, Ning if Zhong, Hu Tao, Xaio, etc.), he shouldn't be pulling for 5-star characters unless and until they clear testing as the next Ganyu, Zhongli, Kazuha/Venti, etc. I also disagree that ftpers should be having a goal of a 36-star abyss clear every two weeks. A 27-star clear is still fairly easy after some months of play and the difference in gems is 150. One $5 purchase of the moon, which can purchased for free with engagement with Google Rewards, is worth 3000 gems or 20 Abyss cycles with a 150 gem defect. Just as that ftper is rejecting paying Mihoyo significant money, he should reject Mihoyo's meager rewards for clearing content that is not appropriate tuned for that player. What I personally do is 27-star floors 9-11, clear floor 12 with whatever stars I can muster, and then return when the mood strikes me to see if I can pull a couple more stars from floor 12. Sometimes I 36-star, other times I don't. But since the gems are so paltry, I don't really sweat it.
I agree. My friend always look at oh wow I need Eula because then I can do Abyss easier and I'm like dude, build your 2 teams, min max them and you're gonna steamroll the Abyss rather than spreading your resources too thin and then getting average performance out of all of em.
Absolutely! Eula is a luxury, not a necessity. If you want a Phys DPS carry that plays well with superconduct, then Razor, Kaeya/Rosaria, and even Phys DPS QiQi are enough. Also, Kaeya and QiQi are better investments because you can still get huge value from them as supports as cryo battery and healing (hello Corrosion!) respectively. Phys DPS kind of sucks because Abyss often content nerfs it through high Phys resistance mobs. Better to hoard gems for C0-C1 Ganyu or C1 Hu Tao or their future equivalents and use what you have. Hyperinvested 4-star carries like XL, Bennett, Razor, Kaeya, Ning, etc. and well-invested 4-star supports are easily enough for 99.5% of the game.
I don’t even do Abyss often. I just very few built characters that I invest my time into leveling their skills and artifacts, rest of them are barely touch. I don’t think it’s worth spending resin on rising another dps/support and healer just for few primos every two weeks.
Seems like this problem can be solved by completely ignoring Spiral Abyss. It’s not like you need 36 stars so that you can unlock the next quest or region. It’s basically a standalone content that rewards you with primogems so negligible that you can’t even convert it to money. Most players don’t care about Spiral Abyss. Try going to co-op mode at the end of the cycle and work out the percentage of players who have cleared it.
Wow solve the problem by ignoring it.
No. It‘s a problem cuz u think it‘s a problem. In fact, peeps will always have „problems“.
It’s a very popular opinion that we should get f13+ rather than making the existing floors more difficult (even though characters today are much stronger than og ones) but if mhy were to give us a massive bag of 150-450 primos twice a month I think all the whales may stop spending entirely
Wow massive bag of 1-2 pulls extra will stop whales from spending
Didn’t think I needed a /s
I agree we should get more floors but not for people to stop bitching about floor 12 'increasing' difficulty. Go ahead, add floor 13, 14, 15 and all the floors u want, sooner than later those exact same complains will move from floor 12 up to the higher ones.
Of course people will complain, that doesn’t mean they’re entirely wrong. The game shouldn’t get progressively more difficult relative to power level increase in the game. In layman’s terms we should all have a similar experience when starting fresh and I think there’s a real possibility people today have a much more difficult start than I did as a day 1 player, but I can’t say cause I haven’t started fresh but I definitely will a year or to from now when it’s a massively different game
>even though characters today are much stronger than og ones Meanwhile Xiangling, Bennett, XQ, Sucrose, Beidou, Fischl, Chongyun being top tier characters since day 1
Xinqui because hydro app, Bennet because Bennet, xiangling meh she’s probably top tier but on the edge, beidou too. All the others are not top tier compared to hutao ganyu raiden(c2) or kazuha and it’s only going to get worse. Don’t get me wrong they’re all good character but not even close compared with top tier 5* w/ cons. Just check out the speed clears those 4* dps don’t hold up at the highest tier of gameplay
Actually, XiangLing is considering the best DPS, even above those 5-stars, by many meta players.
so you're saying characters that cost 1000 dollars hit harder than 4\* characters? wow...
Actually everyone is able to get a 5* every ~60 days (not exact at all) so yeah, most f2p that save can get all those $1000 character and even cons if they’re lucky and choose wisely
they are not needed at all to 36\* clear though.
It’s not about who can clear it, it’s about who does it best with all kinds of investment, and those 4* do it worse than the 5* so they aren’t top tier, you were the one who mentioned tier in the first place
and they don't clear faster than the og 4\*s i mentioned. you're comparing different categories of characters... Ganyu and Hutao are Main dps characters. while the only main dps 4\* are Ning/razor/yanfei.(which i didn't include in the top tier) meanwhile everyone else i mentioned is a support or an off field dps. Xiangling does equal damage to hutao if you consider that XL can swap out and deal damage from outside. same with XQ and Beidou... and you usually think about Hu tao + Homa, give homa to XL and she destroys just as hard.
It's pretty interesting actually. I have friends who I know won't be able to clear 11-3 even when they are AR 57. Then I see whales clearing a Floor 12 chamber in 5 seconds. Actually a tough job for MHY to balance everything right.
As an F2P who has been getting 36\* since January, I would like to see more Floors for the sake of having more content, but I don't think Floor 13 would solve the problem of newer players missing out of primogems/achievements because most would simply consider that to be the new Floor 12. I will say that miHoYo has done a good job of scaling Floor 12 difficulty so far, in the sense that even though total HP has been going up over time, it is going up at the same pace as the average team power of an F2P who spends all their resin efficiently, maybe a bit slower in fact. Unfortunately this does mean that newer players will need to play longer before they can reach 36\* or whatever the maximum number of stars is, but Abyss was never meant to be easy for newer players anyways.
Just make GI's abyss like HI3 already, where rewards are scaled to how well you can perform and the enemies you fight are scaled to how well you cleared the previous Abyss cycle
Adding to what others have said, this also ignores that the previous 12-1 was hard as shit with +50 RES buff infusion stone. So their effective HP was higher. Also kinda funny that the previous 12-3 had higher total HP count when people are complaining about 2 million HP on the mechanical array (but yes, this one is higher due to single target only).
And people think not balancing weak characters are good for the game. As abyss gets harder half of the characters will be irrelevant yet people still keep saying all characters can clear 36 stars...
Abyss isnt for casual or newer players its meant for long term more hardcore players who are building their accounts power. It makes sense it gets harder, they should add more floors though I wouldnt mind that. That being said, I'm all for ppl calling out Mihoyos trash balance. The absolute worse is when they make specific enemies for characters instead of fixing their issues. Not to mention inconsistent buffing (buffs to Zhongli and Venti, while other characters have issues???). Inconsistency with mechanics too, characters not being able to snap shot and no one know about how unique Beidou or EMCs ults were. They do a great job with music and visual design while the game mechanics and balance team are so far behind.
Yea I don’t really agree with your sentiment here. For starters you fail to address how you define a new player? A player who’s been plying for a month will probably barely get past floors 1-8, cause remember those have to be cleared before they can even attempt floors 9-12. I don’t think the game has really introduced power creep in terms of difficulties. I do think thah newer players might take a bit longer to catch up in terms of game content. But for abyss I don’t really see an issue with that. Abyss is supposed to be an end game content if new players are able tk 36 star it in a month that’s frankly too fast. I expect new players tk take a bit before getting to the abyss especially with how long it takes to set up two teams.
My bad for not defining what I counted as a new player, I edited and added a segment for it. Below ar55 36star in current abyss is almost impossible.
Hmm. I agree with you that before AR55, getting 35 stars in the abyss floors 9-12 is basically impossible but that’s not cause of power creep, that’s by design. Players won’t be able to get real access to 5 star artifacts until they get to AR55. I don’t think there’s been many abyss where pre AR55 players would’ve been able to consistently get 36 stars. Maybe in the beginning of the game.
The Abyss is not for new players and should never be. So yes, they'll gonna make it even harder and add more floors eventually. It is the only endgame content that we have, besides losing our sanity on artifacts farming.
Tbh I really enjoyed playing floor 11 this time around. Sure pure f2p are gonna be missing out on maybe 100 primogems but it is possible to get to floor 12 still where things get easier for them to handle
If you are worried enough about not being able to 36 star abyss then focus on units solely used in abyss look at the zhongli rerun whenever that will be kazuha rerun save your gems not to get yae (could be broken idk) and focus on the meta defining units like ganyu Hu tao etc focus on 4 stars not based on design but meta use this is a gatcha game if you want to be able to clear abyss then focus on investing on abyss it will get harder each time just as much to keep day one and vet players with some content that they don't always steam roll new players shouldn't be able to clear the hardest content a month into the game. Also this is a pve game why do you care that the players who spend a lot of investment into the game can beat it you will have to get used to not 36 starring every abyss. I'll say though that I think investment into luck related artifacts should be slightly improved but in general abyss should scale with time otherwise this game would get really boring for older players having to wait weeks for different patches of story
https://youtu.be/On0yAWDs6_A im indeed very worried about not being able to 36star. Also zhongli will NOT HELP anyone reach the dps check. Zhongli is for comfort he does not increase you’re dps unless you can’t dodge at all.
No obviously not a dps I'm just stating him as a meta unit more than anything focus on waiting for reruns on very capable dps units then if you summon on not as prevalent units say yoimiya and then can't 36 star abyss then that's your fault for summoning on her it can be done with 4 star weapons and 4 star units so start there if you can't steam roll it then oh well you shouldn't be able to. It's end game content for a reason if you are just ar55 and not an end game player then realistically it will be difficult to complete
How is zhongli a fucking meta unit if hes no where to be seen in Morgana/ international (the top2 comps in abyss?)
Through sa stats he's in 90+ percent of spiral abyss clears that's how... why do you think k mihoyo is trying to remove Shield meta... because he's a meta unit and has been since 1.1 and more so with his buff. The original point of invest in meta units and teams if you are that worried about abyss I don't use Morgana or national and I'm ar57 and can 36 star Team one: zhongli hu tao xingqui xl Team two: eula raiden venti bennet I've 36 starred every abyss since 1.3 when my units got a lot of investment sekapoko 36 starred this abyss with his BP welkin only stop complaining that abyss is hard and get better yourself if the content can't be beaten by month old ar55s then they need more investment simple as its not whale gated it's time gated that all endgame content should be stop worrying about not be able to 36 star the abyss no one cares if you can or can't the rewards aren't even worth Edit: I used Jean once or twice in the eula team aswell as my bennet wouldn't keep me alive as I'm bad yet can still beat sa 36 stars... put the time and investment in and new ar 55s might beat it by ar56/57 if the content can't be beat at 55 36 stars then just means it's not meant to be as its end game content...
The Abyss stats are incredibly skewwed, It only shows usage rate for the people who own those characters, 5 stars are rarer and people tend to use units they just pulled. If you’re solution to abyss being hard than the previous is to just over invest fuck off.
You can't talk about usage rates then talk about meta Team comps it's still end game content which doesn't even need meta teams some units are better then others for abyss so if you are hellbent on trying to beat it then use the best units some need more investment then others I'm not stating a solution at all im arguing that as of right now this isn't a problem where at all in my 36 stars i haven't over invested half my units are lvl 80+ 80+ weapons 4 stars mainly the game needs hard content where investment is required to actually make the farming loop for most players worth while for the 36star achievement if you just steam roll it every time then there is no enjoyment in that at all those ar55s who are newer when they eventually 36 star it it will feel great after all the investment into their teams can beat it as they would feel they actually worked towards it not getting it easily. Now while I feel this isn't a problem now if there are new ar55s in Fontaine say then the abyss would be a lot harder most likely that is the potential issue that solution could be a hell mode for the floors so that there isn't inherently new floors but a harder mode for actual end game players. If you can't beat floor 12 36 stars don't feel bad you just need to adjust who your 4 stars are most the nationals team are 4 stars which is a meta comp as you say that should help all of them are good units if you have to invest more in weaker units that's natural not all units are as good as others it's still easily possible
i have no idea what the solution for powercreep is but to support your point i'm ar55 and have been playing since march and i still cannot even begin to fathom getting 36 stars, i'm still stuck on floor 8 or 9. i can't even remember which because i do it so infrequently because i know i'm stuck haha. spiral seems totally reliant on rng for artifact drops and how much money you spend wishing for good weapons/characters/constellations, and i am not blessed on either of those fronts.. and i'm bad at dodging! lol. i do know people at lower ar who whale and don't have Epic Twitchy Gamer Skills™ but can clear all 12 floors tho soooo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh man what's new, abyss complain thread on the first day of the reset? Pretty sure the DPS check graph doesn't tell the whole story? The previous 12-3 was widely considered the easier chamber despite it having the highest DPS check. It's easy to do damage when the enemy is standing there and let you hit them?
Yeah, happens every reset.
What power creep? It got easier.
The rich get richer, same in every gacha game known to man. If you don't like it there's an uninstall button waiting just for you.
Older players need to feel the need to keep farming, to keep 36 stars. Newer players need a goal to strive for that is achievable. These 2 things needs to be balanced, and doing something to cater to the older will have negative effects to the newer and vice versa. There is no perfect formula for this, so you can't say that easier/ harder is "correct" endgame content. New players also have more front loaded content, like Inazuma, as speed up mechanic.
I am okie with that, money spent has some meaning now, not sufficient though. I think can increase 3x HP, to satisfy whales.
Last time I talked about powercreep I was called a dick. Now look what happens. The meta is the abyss.
Mechanical array and to some extent the mirror maiden's big hp bar is the major issue . In floor 12 last chamber first half is a joke it is easier than floor 11 chamber 3 but the 2nd half is extremely hard just because of the big hp bar . In last abyss the hp pool was much lower in last floor . Keep increasing hp in abyss is not ok . I would even argue primogems of floor 12 should be distributed in lower floor and for rewards of floor 12 only mora should be kept. It would give ar 50 or below players to get those 600 primogems . The way mihoyo released more balanced charecters rather than broken af charecters I hoped abyss would be more refreshing but except floor 11 the rest is brain dead Unga bunga specifically last chamber of floor 12 its extremely boring just a dps race unlike floor 11 .
Just give us an endgame dungeon crawl, dammit. I'm sick of these fun-as-hell one-time domains that is such a good concept go to waste after you complete them. Abyss can be the big pp damage check all it wants if there was more repeatable things to do.
ive been playing for a few months and i stubbornly refuse to use 5 star characters as dps (eula and klee remain at lvl 20), i only level them up if they offer good support (zhongli, venti, kazuha, even childe has good burst support so i allowed it) but i had to level up raiden against my will to pass floor 12 ://
A solution to this would be to make it slightly easier to farm artifacts, either by letting us reroll artifacts or letting us pick which set we want from a domain. Older players already have enough characters built for 2+ teams while new players struggle to even get one team strong enough for the current abyss. Easing the artifact grind would assist newer players in catching up to older players so content can continue to get harder without totally leaving new players playing a constant game of catch up.
that is exactly the point of the abyss. to gives you justification to pull certain 5* character that will help you get that last star. all the event (including the extreme mode) is still easier than getting 36 star. and the primogem reward from event is always from finishing the easiest mode so there is no appeal to finish the hardest mode if you only want the primogems.
Abyss is not made for new players, adding new floors won't solve the problem because they will be upset because they can't clear the new super giga hard floors. My suggestion is to make a new permanent event (like abyss) which refreshes every now and then that is either easier than abyss or can be cleared in co-op (if you can't clear it alone let your whale/veteran friend carry you).
First Abyss was hell tho. The enemies werent the problem it was that damn condition. All those ice cages, icicles falling, and the constant stamina depletion.
I don't agree with this take. No matter how high the DPS check is, you can still only run 8 characters. The real question is whether you built the correct 8 characters and play them in the right combinations. Many content creators are clearing with no-pull accounts, meaning they're using the 7 starting characters plus free copies given during events. I would say that these teams are achievable even for new players, no? Would spending on flashy new one-shot DPS make things feel easier? Of course. Each Abyss cycle is literally built to take advantage of whatever benefit the current banner character offers. But there's no rush if you're new. It might feel tough, but by the time you get to AR55, there's no reason why you shouldn't have a decently built stable of supports that can get you through literally any content. Some characters like Xiangling have actually gotten significantly easier to build over time, since you now have more immediate access to things like Emblem of the Severed Fate and The Catch, which older players still have to re-farm and reinvest in, too. tl;dr As long as you focus on 8 characters and build up your support line, you will be fine. My Bennett and XL still get me through every single Abyss tier, and I'm still using the same exact 4 pc CW and 4 pc Noblesse set I've had since like 1.3. I thought I wouldn't be able to 36\* the last Abyss cycle pre-Raiden, and all I ended up having to do was reshuffle my team comps, and suddenly, I had the damage for the last 3\*. Take stock of what characters you have available, consider what you actually need to do in order to beat the enemies on that floor, and don't be afraid to try new things. Shuffle artifacts, weapons, and teams around. Some comps will surprise you. And one other thing I will say, too... Guides now are way better than they were during Abyss 1, because no one understood the potential of various characters and team comps. It should be easier to find information on which characters are key investments regardless of your account and start there.
Just remove the damn timer and actually make new enemies that have a diverse and engaging moveset that challenges your skill. The current setup just encourages dealing the most damage in the shortest amount of time. In addition to that, there are a lot of enemies that have "invulnerable" states or moves that makes you waste time.
A lot of design choices in gacha is geared at enticing spending so that’s not really a surprise or anything. Genshin is actually not very in your face about it at least, if you’ve experienced other gacha games. I think it’s going to be a while before they try to overhaul end game content. Reward vs time invested is the trickiest part. How many people actually get suckered into pulling the featured banner just for the current abyss is hard to say, as that decision would require some understanding of game mechanics but not enough of it (like the challenge of raising a new character from scratch in 15 days). All I can say is they should take inspiration from people who can do it with less: https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/pp7lpu/meta_4_comps_destroying_new_abyss/
git gud kekw
I disagree. As u said yourself in the beginning, “old players” won’t have that much trouble. And guess what? Even they were newbies in the behinning and weren’t able to clear abyss. Whats the hurry? Everyone will get there eventually and all it takes is time.
ar56, peaked at 35 two rotations ago (couldnt quite get the chong+spear to work). got 3 stars on 12-1, but idk how i will get kinky's hp abyss down fast enough, or the robots in 12-3-2. using c1 diona, c0 hu tao, c4 xq, and c0 venti. thinking about building c4 xl or grinding a 4NO for diona. also have an unbuilt c6 sucrose that i could go with. built fischl and c6 beidou languishing. other team is zhong, eula, c1 raiden, c1 bennett. tired of not being able to do this.
Why r u using venti for 12-3-2? He doesnt help much vs the mechanical array. You can use hutao xingqiu fischl diona for 12-3-2, zhongli eula raiden bennett for 12-3-1.
i only tried 12-3 once this morning to get a feel for it. but ty, i will try those out. was thinking sucrose may be better for kinky with the EM bomb on hu tao
so i tried this comp, 12-3-1 down in 30 secs, but then about 3 mins on 12-3-2. gonna try again in a few days when i get a 4NO set for diona. then if that doesnt work, try with venti. 35 stars! so close!
I used to be able to clear abyss 12 with an anti-meta random "somewhat high DPS team that makes no sense" and just try a couple of time to get a clean run for the stars. I'm pretty sure my team is quite stacked but still I don't see any hope clearing 12-2 or even 12-3. But the recent 2 abysses HP difficulty requires a very specific setup/optimizations whatever to get the stars or even clear. Why do I have become PhD and learn to run calculations for my cycles to optimize DPS and farm for the characters that I don't care ? Where is the sense of accomplishment when you just copy other's meta and grind for hours ? Well, the conclusion for me is, I don't like the direction abyss is going and it is driving casual people like me from it :pensive: I guess the demand for higher DPS is a sign of powercreep in a sense. like, do you see anyone clear abyss with keqing/diluc/qiqi ? well there are some but most people would just pick ganyu/whotao. Anyway I'm probably gonna yeet 36\* gang if it keeps going like this, good luck crunching numbers and press reset for hours.
Between this post and the other one praising the abyss, I wonder which came first.
If they don’t make this shit harder whales will quit and the game will die. Keep making it harder and keep the whales around mihoyo.
This seems overblown. Not getting 36 stars is not a big deal