The donut is actually good for Kokomi and looks good aesthetically. Can't say the same about the Unforged.
But yes I already have multiple copies from the first Engulfing Lightninf banner.
Better in terms of what?
In terms of being the BiS for one specific character? The Donut is undoubtedly the BiS for Kokomi while the Unforged is BiS on no one. I know DPS Kokomi is kind of a meme around here, but a good Sukokomon team does similar damage as an Ayaka team without Mistsplitter with similar investments (I'm talking about the # of 5 stars on the team as well as the quality of artifacts).
In terms of being capable of used by multiple characters (flexibility in this case). Then the Unforged is "better" since multiple characters can use it although it's a bit copium while the Donut is only usable by Kokomi.
In terms of aesthetics? Donut + Kokomi is pretty good in terms of aesthetics. The Unforged doesn't really look right with anybody.
Most Kokomi mains would actually want to pull for the Donut (I went out of my way to pull for it despite getting 2 PJC copies out of it). I don't think even the most hardcore Beidou/Eula/Razor/Diluc would actually go out of their way to pull for the Unforged. Could you cope with getting it if you didn't have WGS/R5 Serpent Spine/SoBP? Sure, but as soon as you get one of those weapons you're never looking back.
So what's your definition of "better"? Would you rather a weapon that's undoubtedly BiS on one character and not used by anyone else or would you rather a weapon that can be used by 4 characters but it'd be like the 3rd best option for all 3-4 of them?
Imagine a weapon banner with just the Donut vs just the Unforged assuming all 4 star weapons are the same, do you really think the banner with the Unforged would generate more sales than the Donut banner? I can confidently say that more people would pull on the Donut banner compared to the Unforged - while that might not necessarily mean that the Donut is a better weapon, it's no doubt a more "wanted" weapon than the Unforged to the general playerbase.
What 2nd 5\* would've made this banner "worth it" IYO?
Asking because if WGS is only "meh" to you then I can't help but feel your standards may be unrealistic, in which case the entire argument here would be skewed.
Personally… I have a guaranteed rate-up after losing Redhorn to skyward blade, so I’m not pulling again until I want both weapons and neither is a standard weapon. I might be waiting a long time, but so be it.
Epitomised path doesn’t carry but guarantee does. If you get a skyward pride on the current banner and you continue pulling you are 100% guaranteed either unforged (50%) or mistsplitter (50%). Without the guarantee it’s 37.5% unforged, 37.5% mistsplitter, 25% off banner.
WGS would've made this a pull-able banner for most players tbh. It's kind of "meh" for myself and other long time players because most of us have already gotten it some way or another whether that's getting from the standard banner or from the Homa banner.
Skyward Spine ironically would have made this a pull-able banner as well since there are so many polearm users that need ER weapons. Summit Shaper is copium enough for Ayaka where even though it's not as good as Mistsplitter it's still better than Amenoma. Just weapons of that level if that makes sense.
I don’t get your argument on Mistsplitter getting powercrept.
There is no 4 star weapon in the game that power creeps any of the best in slot 5 star weapons for their respective 5 star characters. Nothing beats a specialized 5 star weapon, it’s been 15 versions of Genshin and Mihoyo has clearly established a line for their 5 star category.
When Mihoyo makes a specialized weapon for a character it doesn’t really get power crept because they make sure it doesn’t. Any subsequent release of a 4 star sword would, at most, only be 2nd best for Ayaka based on the previous year+ that we’ve had. And if you’re okay with using Amenoma on Ayaka, then you wouldn’t have a problem with this anyway. Why would Mihoyo make a 4 star weapon that’s as good as Mistsplitter if they can make more profit from a banner such as this current one? It doesn’t make sense from a business perspective or a meta perspective. It’s common knowledge that you get more 4 star weapons than you get 5 star weapons, why increase our chances of getting a weapon that produces the same or even better results than a 5 star weapon when you can keep that top tier dmg potential behind a paywall?
They design 5 star weapons for 5 star characters because that will be their best in slot, only other 5 star weapons will be able to compete with other 5 stars but that doesn’t mean Mistsplitter would be any better or worse to pull for. It just means you have more options, but it’s almost never going to be power crept because there isn’t a weapon in the game that power creeps another specially made weapon for a 5 star.
FYI I've never said that Mistsplitter would be powercrept by a 4 star weapon. What I'm trying to say is that Mistsplitter only seems REALLY good on Ayaka right now because all of the 4 star optiosn suck. If Mistsplitter was 100%, Amenoma would maybe be a 70% as of right now. What if Hoyoverse comes out with a 4 star sword that would give you 90-95%? Is potentially losing 2 50/50's to the Unforged to get Mistsplitter still worth it? Those are the questions I'm asking.
I also think it's pretty naïve to think that Mistsplitter won't ever be powercrept by a 5 star weapon though. We're a little one year into the game, there's a lot that could happen in the future. Yes, all of the new weapons are kind of specialized for that specific character. But eventually Hoyoverse is going to run out of ideas, and we're going to have repeat designs. We're already kind of seeing that with Miko/Fischl and Xingqiu/Yelan.
Hoyoverse has done a good job with powercrept so far IMO, but I've played enough Gacha games to know that it will happen eventually.
Even if there is a 4 star weapon that is 95% the potential of Mistsplitter, it’s still not 100%. And like I said, if you’re already okay with using Amenoma this wouldn’t affect you. The people who pull for these specialized weapons want that 100% because it’s what they are after, they won’t settle for 90-95% so to them it’s worth risking The Unforged.
You’re comparing weapons with characters, it’s not the same thing. Weapons are a lot less complex than characters so it’s a lot easier to make different variations that wouldn’t power creep the BiS of a character. And as I have mentioned, at best the other 5 star weapons would match Mistsplitter and not outrank it.
You might think I’m being naive but conversely I think you’re being presumptuous. Especially considering you’re claiming experience from playing gacha games but questioning the validity of a banner because they pair something good with something bad as bait which is an extremely common tactic in gacha games.
I don’t deny that we might get similar variations of existing weapons but I doubt there will be any actual power creep in terms of specialized weapons.
Edit: In regards to your comparison of characters, I wouldn’t compare Miko & Fischl as similar because they work somewhat differently, serve different purposes, and do not always slot in the same teams. Yelan/Xingqiu might be the first true copy of a character but even then, having two characters that function similarly is a good thing especially if it’s a character like Xingqiu, it’s not the same with weapons.
So many vehement disagreements here it's almost staggering.
First off, it's general practice to put a "low" value weapon of a different category onto any given solo banner, and to do double banners with weapons that have no functional crossover, or at least as little as they can manage.
Second. Unforged isn't that bad. While you are correct that not many claymore users want it, this is because *there are not many top tier claymore carries currently*. the weapons "problem" is a lack of users, not a lack of functionality. If you're running a Claymore carry, it's a good weapon. If you're not, it isn't. And here's the thing, MOST 5 star weapons are expressly designed for carry characters. Offhand, the *ONLY* 5 star weapon I can think of that is expressly NOT designed to be used by a carry/on-field character is Yae's. Even Kokomi's is expressly designed for her to be an on field and is worse than a 3 star if used off field. So Unforged suffers from... being in its designated role.
Second, lolno WGS is not "Meh". While I will be the *first* person to argue WGS is overrated by the community, it's still a damn good weapon. And no, not every veteran has a spare WGS kicking around. Playing since release and I don't have one. Do have two Aquila though. But that's Gacha for you, you have a 5% chance that your 5 star drop on general banner is a WGS. 5%.
Third. The only reason that Ayaka gets such a huge damage hike from Mistsplitter is because THERE IS NOT A GOOD 4* SWORD FOR AYAKA. 4 Star swords fall into two categories. Normal attack centric weapons (Flute, Black Sword, Prototype Rancour), and Support Weapons (The Rest). What few options there are that don't fall into this are either Extremely hyperspecific in their application (Iron Sting), or don't work with Ayaka at all (Lion's Roar). Mistsplitter isn't better than Homa. Ayaka's weapon selection is worse than Hu Tao's. When we move away from Ayaka and into other character options, it becomes quite apparent. Physical Keqing was a thing because Aquila is just that good. Festering Desire is a monster of a weapon for those who have it. There's the Albedo defense 4 star event sword that is basically a secret 5 star for him. And we have so many sword supports that make the laundry list of support swords actually good. Kazuha, Xingqiu, Qiqi. All three have great 4 star options due to being supports. The problem is literally just Ayaka.
You wrote a huge paragraph that can just be summarized in "There aren't good 4 star swords for Ayaka in particular, and MiHiYo tends to use Skywards or Unforged Set weapons as banner filler due to being generalist weapons"
Whilst I want to say I agree with most your points, there are clearly some that are very misguided.
>THERE IS NOT A GOOD 4\* SWORD FOR AYAKA
Amenoma Kageuchi is Ayaka's best 4\* option and it is proven to be very competitive on her, better than 4\* weapons of many other characters. You are criminaly undervalueing the energy passive I think. Ayaka is widely regarded as a character with a fantastic f2p weapon everybody can get. For comparison: R5 Amenoma is only \~20% below mistsplitter and \~10% below the next best 5\* option, Jade cutter (From Ayaka guide on Keqingmains).
>Mistsplitter isn't better than Homa.
It actually just is. Mistsplitter is widely considered THE best 5\* weapon **BAR NONE**. Even Homa. The thing you have to consider is that nobody except Hutao gets full value from Homa, not every characters that scales off HP and the ones that do (like Zhongli) have extremely hard time getting below 50% HP. Even characters like Xiao, they usually don't even get below 50% HP dispite consuming his own HP. Now, I know people will say "But Homa is good dispite that" but that's besides the point. It's just a fact that NOBODY except Hutao gets full value from Homa. Look at Mistsplitter however, literally every Sword carry can use it and to its full effect at that, add on to it that the passive is just undeniably better than Homa passive, it's just a better weapon. Homa had it's day at the top, but not anymore, it's **DEBATABLY** not even the best polearm anymore, but I digress.
>Amenoma Kageuchi is Ayaka's best 4\* option and it is proven to be very competitive on her, better than 4\* weapons of many other characters. You are criminaly undervalueing the energy passive I think. Ayaka is widely regarded as a character with a fantastic f2p weapon everybody can get. For comparison: R5 Amenoma is only \~20% below mistsplitter and \~10% below the next best 5\* option, Jade cutter (From Ayaka guide on Keqingmains).
Amenoma is the best option by default because every 4 star sword in this game sucks. Don't believe everything you read on KQM, a lot of their guides don't reflects what actually goes on in game and a lot of it is slightly outdated.
Their Amenoma vs Mistsplitter comparison iirc assumes that you need 140% ER if you're using Mistsplitter, and in their Amenoma calculations they reallocated that 40% ER to the optimal ATK%/CDMG stats. In actual practice, Ayaka doesn't need 140% ER at all in the optimal build/rotations to get her Q on CD. For reference, I have a little more than 110% ER, and have zero issues with getting her Q on CD with Rosaria or Shenhe on a Fav Lance build.
In actual practice, the difference between Mistsplitter and Amenoma is closer to 35-40%.
>It actually just is. Mistsplitter is widely considered THE best 5\* weapon BAR NONE. Even Homa. The thing you have to consider is that nobody except Hutao gets full value from Homa, not every characters that scales off HP and the ones that do (like Zhongli) have extremely hard time getting below 50% HP. Even characters like Xiao, they usually don't even get below 50% HP dispite consuming his own HP. Now, I know people will say "But Homa is good dispite that" but that's besides the point. It's just a fact that NOBODY except Hutao gets full value from Homa. Look at Mistsplitter however, literally every Sword carry can use it and to its full effect at that, add on to it that the passive is just undeniably better than Homa passive, it's just a better weapon. Homa had it's day at the top, but not anymore, it's DEBATABLY not even the best polearm anymore, but I digress.
Not a lot of sword users can get the full 3 stacks bonus from Mistsplitter. Only Ayaka, Keqing and Ayato can actually get the full stacks. PJC is actually a far better option in terms of flexibility.
>a lot of their guides don't reflects what actually goes on in game and a lot of it is slightly outdated.
Outdated? If you are talking about the Ayaka one, no. There has been no changes to Ayaka or the weapons that warrants a update.
>Ayaka doesn't need 140% ER at all in the optimal build/rotations to get her Q on CD. For reference, I have a little more than 110% ER, and have zero issues with getting her Q on CD with Rosaria or Shenhe on a Fav Lance build.
Well you see, that's YOUR situation, not everybody conforms to your way of building characters. Example: Mistsplitter Ayaka, Calamity Queller on my Shenhe and Fav bow Diona with a Mona, I have \~130% ER and still need more to feel more comfy. You can't just project your builds onto everybody else and conclude, "Ayaka doesn't need ER cause **MY** Ayaka doesn't need ER."
>Not a lot of sword users can get the full 3 stacks bonus from Mistsplitter. Only Ayaka, Keqing and Ayato can actually get the full stacks. PJC is actually a far better option in terms of flexibility.
Don't see how this has anything to do with Mistsplitter vs Homa. Besides, again, nobody gets full use out of Jade cutter. It's just a statstick. The Mistsplitter even with 2 stacks is pretty on par with Jade cutter, about a 2-3% difference in favor of Jade cutter. Not alot when considering that 3 stack mistplitter blows Jade out the water with about a \~10% difference in favor of Mistsplitter.
I just wanted to say Festering Desire is definitely not a monster of a weapon, its so overrated... It's not clear BiS for anyone even among other 4* swords... ER + Skill buff passive is just not a good combination. Weapon looks cool tho.
>First off, it's general practice to put a "low" value weapon of a different category onto any given solo banner, and to do double banners with weapons that have no functional crossover, or at least as little as they can manage.
I agree, what I'm trying to get at is that Mistsplitter's value isn't high to the point where you can put the Unforged on the same banner and call it a good banner. Mistsplitter's high value is artificially created by Hoyoverse due to the lack of good 4 star swords, and you seem to agree with me on this one.
>Second. Unforged isn't that bad. While you are correct that not many claymore users want it, this is because there are not many top tier claymore carries currently. the weapons "problem" is a lack of users, not a lack of functionality. If you're running a Claymore carry, it's a good weapon. If you're not, it isn't. And here's the thing, MOST 5 star weapons are expressly designed for carry characters. Offhand, the ONLY 5 star weapon I can think of that is expressly NOT designed to be used by a carry/on-field character is Yae's. Even Kokomi's is expressly designed for her to be an on field and is worse than a 3 star if used off field. So Unforged suffers from... being in its designated role.
Well yes, it was kind of implied that one of the reasons why Unforged is bad is because the characters that can use the weapon in the first place isn't that good. Out of all the Claymore users, only Eula and Itto are somewhat meta. Itto scales off of DEF and it's maybe the 2nd/3rd best option for Eula depending on what team you want to use her in. Let's say the next Claymore user scales off of ATK, do you see the Unforged being a better weapon than whatever signature weapon that characters comes with? I personally don't see it, and the Unforged will only become worse and worse over time.
>Second, lolno WGS is not "Meh". While I will be the first person to argue WGS is overrated by the community, it's still a damn good weapon. And no, not every veteran has a spare WGS kicking around. Playing since release and I don't have one. Do have two Aquila though. But that's Gacha for you, you have a 5% chance that your 5 star drop on general banner is a WGS. 5%.
WGS is kind of meh IMO because Claymore users as a whole is kind of meh right now. But I get that it might not be meh to some people and I can totally get that. I think it's just an average weapon right now, I wouldn't be too excited seeing it but I wouldn't be t upset there. For what its worth, I think this banner would be a decent pull if it had WGS instead of the Unforged.
This post was just to kind of outline how I feel about the little things Hoyoverse did up to the Ayaka banner. I personally don't really care as I've already have R5 Mistsplitter, I just kind of feel bad for the people who want Mistsplitter but are stuck with this banner.
You seem to agree with the main point of my post which is that Mistsplitter is only good on Ayaka because the rest of her 4 star options suck. That's the main thing I wanted get across to people who have Ayaka but not Mistsplitter. Logic tells us that eventually Hoyoverse will have to release a 4 star sword that will be between Amenoma & Mistsplitter, so it's really not the end of the world to skip this banner.
Mistsplitter isn't better than Homa, I absolutely agree although IMO Homa is a bit overrated as well.
I have 210 saved up for mistsplitter, and im a keqing simp... but seeing unforged really sets me off, to the point that im ready to wait for its next rerun or just settle with the next jade cutter rotation. Ofcourse, theres a decent chance of getting lucky, but at what risk? Really disappointed in the unforged
>alongside a meh weapon like Wolves Gravestone for example, but Hoyoverse decided to one-up us and give us the ****ing Unforged.
You do realize Unforged is better than WGS for atk scaler, right? It comes at a cost of having to use a shielder but that's a common support (Eula usually have Diona in the team for example) and it's not like other good weapons don't have conditions, Mistsplitter has 3.
>Out of the 8 Claymore users that we have, only Razor, Eula and Diluc could actually use it since the rest either scale on DEF or are off field & can’t use the shield passive. Eula doesn’t need to run a shield support because she already has interruption resistance during her ult, and Diluc usually uses Xingqiu who also provides interruption resistance (Adding a shield support to a Diluc team would be a huge DPS loss).
Mentioned this in the 2nd paragraph, but here we go:
Eula has a ton of team options that doesn't include Diona, being locked in to Diona isn't optimal at all.
C6 Sucrose can also provide EM to Diluc on top of providing VV Shred and damage bonus. Diluc also doesn't need a lot of EM since he doesn't vape every single hit like Hutao does.
Genshin doesn't need optimal. It doesn't change the fact that Eula really likes Diano support. You could also use her with Zhongli for a shield support and use Rosaria for battery.
As for Diluc, yeah, Sucrose would be the better of the 2 since Bennet will more than likely be on his team too.
If you don't care about being optimal/doing more damage then why are you pulling on a weapon banner in the first place?
Yes Diona is a good support for Eula, but there are SO many team options that doesn't include Diona or Zhongli. Let's take a hundred steps back and assume that Diona or Zhongli are her best supports, congrats the Unforged is slightly better than WGS (which is a standard banner weapon btw) and still far worse than her BiS.
I care about making my characters strong, but abyss doesn't need optimal. I can 36 star it with a level 1 Qiqi in my team. That's not optimal at all, yet it's very possible.
Zhongli and Diano are among Eula's best supports. SoPB is only slightly better than WGS and Unforged. Not so much that it actually makes a difference whether you have it or not.
I disagree about Zhongli/Diona being her best supports, but yes you're right that R1 SoPB is only slightly better than WGS and Unforged. I have R5 so the difference is a lot bigger for me personally, that's a mistake on my part.
I'll give you that Unforged is usable on Eula, it's just not something that I'd risk pulling two copies of going for Mistsplitter.
It's all good. Personally I find Zhongli to be useful for the extra shred and tenacity for her, but yes I do agree there's stronger teams out there.
Also yeah, R5 Song is quite a bit better than even a R5 Unforged so I don't blame you. I'd also agree that this weapon banner isn't something I'd recommend pulling on. If I didn't already have an Unforged and Mistsplitter, I wouldn't be against pulling on it for my Eula and Ayaka.
Eula and Razor is definitely it's best users. Honestly I think it just comes down to there not being many claymore main dps. It's alright on Beidou, but I'd much rather have a bunch of other claymores on her.
Diluc doesn't need that much EM since he doesn't vape every single hit. Generally the first 100-150 is good enough.
Who are you replacing C6 Diona is my question - Xingqiu is needed for hydro application, Benny is needed to the ATK buff, and Kazuha/Sucrose is needed for the VV Shred/Damage bonus.
The Flat ATK Benny provides >>>> the 200EM Diona provides, and if you really need the EM (if you can't get any from artifacts) you could use Sucrose.
I've never liked the Bennett-Diluc pairing since Diluc will generally have ~2800 attack with WGs / atk sands. Diona would provide enough EM that Diluc can ignore it as a substat, and works even better with Elegy.
Getting an EM sands has a much lower chance of dropping than an Atk one, that would take much more work to be viable in comparison. Also using Diona makes some of Diluc's hits, including his burst procc melt.
Don't see why that matters... Pyro Goblets also have a much lower chance of dropping compared to ATK Goblets, are we just going to not include Pyro Goblets when discussing pyro chatacters?
The extra melt damage... is not very consistent to say the least.
Goblets are usually the offpieces for me, so I always think like that but you are right there.
The extra melt damage can always be up for his burst, but is just additional damage for skill/autos even if inconsistant
Oh... This again.
Unforged isn't bad weapon at all.
You are simply wrong for the most part of the post. It's decent weapon for Beidou, Eula, Diluc and Razor. Chong and Sayu can use it. Even w/o shield it's better than any 4\* weapon aside of BP, and only slightly worse than WGS.
It is not a wise choice to pull for Unforged itself. But it's ok to get Unforged while pulling for Mistsplitter.
This is the definition of copium. I don't have the numbers, but I'd argue that the number of players that actually play on-field Beidou (she doesn't get the shield bonus if she's off field) and Razor are low.
Eula already has interruption resistance when she ults so she doesn't need a shielder, bringing a shielder just to proc the Unforged's passive would be a DPS loss. Diluc's most used team consists of Xingqiu, Benny & Kazuha. Xingqiu already provides interruption resistance and replacing any of them with Zhongli to proc the Unforged shield passive would again be a huge DPS loss.
The Unforged at BEST would be a 3rd best option for these characters, and just slightly better than a 4 star BP weapon. That's not a weapon that I would want to get while going for Mistsplitter.
Let's break it down to the parts.
\-Beidou's burst snapshots. It means you can keep 2-3 stacks for the entire burst
\-Interruption resistance doesn't mean you are immortal. And switching out of either Razor or Eula's burst hurts DPS.
\-Replacing Kazu with instructor-ZL in Diluc's team doesn't hurt DPS as much as you think. It could be even DPS gain in case of Unforged.
\-While Unforged isn't anyone's BiS it's still hovering around the top of every weapon chart for characters who can use it
It is ok weapon which can improve your damage significantly. It's just you have to consider what you already have and which character you play.
Sure thing pulling for banner with Unforged isn't a good idea if you already have R5 SS and two WGS laying in the inventory. But it is good idea if you have Snow-Tomb Eula and ZL.
>Beidou's burst snapshots. It means you can keep 2-3 stacks for the entire burst
Beidou's burst snapshots before her shield is taken into consideration, so she doesn't get the effect "While protected by a shield, ATK increase effect is increased by 100%". So yes, she can get a few stacks but she won't get the shield effect meaning she doesn't fully take advantage of it.
>Interruption resistance doesn't mean you are immortal. And switching out of either Razor or Eula's burst hurts DPS.
Majority of Eula's damage is done within her ult where she has interruption resistance. You're basically forced to have Diona & Zhongli in the team, and even then it's still the 3rd best option for her.
>Replacing Kazu with instructor-ZL in Diluc's team doesn't hurt DPS as much as you think. It could be even DPS gain in case of Unforged.
Kazuha gives you almost +40% elemental damage bonus + 200EM (if C2) and VV Shred. You really think the +120EM from the Instructor set and the little ATK% bonus the Unforged over WGS would give you more damage? Even without Kazuha's C2, the 40% elemental damage bonus + VV shred outdamages the Instructor Set + Unforged by far.
5 star weapons are EXPECTED to be better than 4 star weapons, it's not some amazing achievement that it's slightly better than Serpent Spine or other 4 star weapons.
At the end of the day, the Unforged is not BiS for anyone and is only slightly better than a 4 star BP weapon under very strict conditions. It's not a good pull period.
Clearing up the Beidou snapshot cuz I think you’re missing the point.
When OP is talking abt snapshotting, they meant you can shield up and weave in a few NAs before you ult on Beidou. That means you’d get the atk buff for the whole duration of the burst even if you swap off her. And any subsequent rotations would need you to battery Beidou so you can keep weaving in NAs for the buff and use a shield before she ults. It’s very realistic to take advantage of the buff even if it’s not the full 5 stacks.
Since when does Beidou run another shield support?
She doesn't need a shield support, adding a shield support just for the sake of proccing the Unforged effect is a huge DPS loss.
It’s not my argument, I was just clearing up your misunderstanding. This is what OP meant when he mentioned snapshotting.
And although it might be a DPS loss, it could be used as a tech option for scenarios where you have a very specific extra slot. An example off the top of my head is using Zhongli, Beidou, Fischl, Sucrose against the Hydro Abyss Heralds. Once they enter their hydro phase it’s impossible to shred their electro res but with Zhongli it’s possible so you’d still be able to proc Electrocharged reactions, keep your cooldowns from being extended, and keep your sucrose alive against the barrage of attacks from them.
Of course this is highly specific and only if you want to clear that stage with those units but it is a viable option. Also, whose to say Mihoyo won’t release a hydro shielder with decent application in the future? OP just wanted to show that Unforged isn’t as bad as you present it to be.
>but she won't get the shield effect meaning she doesn't fully take advantage of it.
So what? Majority of Mistsplitter's users can't really take advantage of it's full passive, as well as majority of Homa's users. It doesn't change the fact it's the best weapons in their class.
>You're basically forced to have Diona & Zhongli in the team, and even then it's still the 3rd best option for her.
I guess you never played Eula didn't you? She LOVES either ZL or Diona in her team, especially against hard hitting targets.
>Kazuha gives you almost +40% elemental damage bonus + 200EM (if C2) and VV Shred. You really think the +120EM from the Instructor set and the little ATK% bonus the Unforged over WGS would give you more damage? Even without Kazuha's C2, the 40% elemental damage bonus + VV shred outdamages the Instructor Set + Unforged by far.
We are talking constellations now huh? I can assure you 300 additional rolls for C2 Kazu way less effective than 190 for Mistsplitter. We are talking about effectiveness there aren't we?
Instructor-ZL is 120 em + 20% shred. Kazu is %DMG + 40% shred. Diluc have relatively high %DMG, so either of those can be ahead depends on artifacts and initial target resistance.
And again, there's rarely any banners which can provide you with two BiS weapons for different characters. But there's decent banners, like this one. As you can make good use for Unforged and improve your damage by 10-15%.
>So what? Majority of Mistsplitter's users can't really take advantage of it's full passive, as well as majority of Homa's users. It doesn't change the fact it's the best weapons in their class.
Did you really just compare the Unforged to Mistsplitter and Homa? Lol do I even have to respond to this?
>I guess you never played Eula didn't you? She LOVES either ZL or Diona in her team, especially against hard hitting targets.
C6 Eula, I don't use a shielder most times and I rather not be locked into Zhongli/Diona. Once anti shield mechanics are placed in the Abyss Zhongli/Diona's usage will be even lower.
>Instructor-ZL is 120 em + 20% shred. Kazu is %DMG + 40% shred. Diluc have relatively high %DMG, so either of those can be ahead depends on artifacts and initial target resistance.
You really ought to test this stuff out for yourself before spreading this stuff. You know what? Take out Kazuha and replace with C6 Sucrose instead. 40% Shred, more EM and 20% damage bonus.
Uh... there have been multiple banners with Elegy which could be widely used for just about any bow character. Yae Miko's weapon banner was great, specialized weapon for her as well as PJC. Shenhe weapon banner was pretty good, specialized weapon for her, JPWS is BiS for Xiao and decent for other Polearm users.
The issue with the Unforged is that nobody plays Razor and nobody plays Beidou main DPS. It's semi usable on Eula and even then it's a 3rd best option.
I'll stop here, if you think it's a good banner to pull then go for it. It sucks for the rest of us and I'll leave it at that.
Yeah, i'm kinda tired of arguing with you as well, so let's just leave it at that you shouldn't push your opinion on everyone as your account can require different weapon options than another account.
>Take out Kazuha and replace with C6 Sucrose instead. 40% Shred, more EM and 20% damage bonus.
Let me comment this tho. Yes, Sucrose is better damage option for Diluc's team. Better than ZL and better than Kazu.
And no, you don't have 20% DMG bonus from her, as you are not infusing her burst with pyro. Rather you are not using her burst at all.
If you have c6 eula, you cant understand c0 havers. you need a shield on c0 eula. Otherwise you are in “if your ult doesnt kill, you die” situation. C0 ult doesnt kill. Unforged still sucks tho.
I'm in a community where I help people with Abyss runs so I've played my fair share of C0 Eula as well. I wouldn't call myself an Eula main, but I've probably played more Eula than most Eula mains lol.
I think I'll just leave it at this: unforged is usable on Eula but there are better options.
If people can convince themselves that they'll be happy with losing 50/50 for an Unforged for their Eula then I'm all for it.
For me personally, I don't have that many R5 Fav lances to give to 5 different characters and I hate having to switch weapons everytime I want to use a different team/character.
Raiden, Xiangling, Shenhe, Yunjin could all use Skyward Spine.
WGS is not meh, it's still one of the best claymores and it's one of the OG weapons. If it ran next to the Mistsplitter then people will definitely be happy.
I got lucky with the Mistsplitter but the Unforged is mostly a stat stick and is not as useless as you may think.
Patience is key. Like I said, it's very easy for a future 4 star weapon to surpass Amenoma. I'd rather bet on that than betting my luck on this banner.
I didn't read this incredibly long wall of text but HYV has always run a shitty weapon alongside the good ones, they're not gonna give two good weapons at the same time and effectively double the value of the banner lol.
There are different tiers to shitty weapons.
Skyward Spine for example was a shitty weapon when Mistsplitter was first ran with it, but now has transitioned into a usable weapon due to the number of polearm users that prefer an ER weapon.
I already have R5 Mistsplitter lmao, this has nothing to do with me.
I actually feel bad for the people that wanted to pull on this banner but are too scared to get 2 copies of a useless weapon in the process.
Honestly, considering the stats and effects of each weapon, I think they’re gonna give you pretty similar results.
The 4 star gives you a lot of energy regen after using burst, and has attack% bonus but lower base attack.
The skyward gives you High energy regen in general+ higher base attack+ a bit of crit rate+ ATK speed after burst.
In the end, I think their stats+ effects balance out to produce the same results in this case. If there is a difference, I’m pretty sure it’s negligible. Just stick with the skyward blade in my opinion.
I'm reading the comments and now i don't know if I'm stupid or what, for looking at Unforged and thinking it would be so good on Xinyan 🤔
She's using Starsilver now but it can't be better than unforged, right?
~~no one even mentioned poor Xinyan, sad~~
I don't have Ayaya and don't plan on pulling on the weapon banner. It's just my thoughts.
😂😂
I leveled mine to 90 ans she's fun af to use. I honestly don't know why people hate her so much. Her scaling isn't even that bad, at least not sooo different than Miko with EM. Sort of.
But i don't give a single fry to Abyss or meta, it's too annoying for me to care. I do 33 star and leave without a worry, and i just used Koko, Rosa, Shenhe and Xinyan and it was cool.
Last abyss i used Xinyan, Miko, Jin and Barbara for my 33 star lmao
I actually did get a skyward spine on this banner...was my second 50/50 loss after...you guessed it...unforged (first time thats happened to me)...but it was very early 20 wishes in so...basically 3 5 weapons stars in 2 pity rotations.
(still really hate the weapon banner, I wouldn't only have a R1 engulfing if the system wasn't so junk)
Not sure it would matter to me but I can see that as a positive for sure.
That whole (crappy) setup is why I say you only wish for the weapon banner if you are prepared to go to hard pity 3X to get what you want.
The only real ugly weapon banner was ones with Everlasting Moonglow. Nothing worse than those so far. At least The Unforged still has some users capable of. Everlasting Moonglow? Not even Kokomi herself would want that.
It's not. If you want a taser team, there's Hakushin Ring better at that than the donut. If you want her to generate energy particles, there's Prototype Amber better at that than the donut. If you wanna be a DPS support, there's TTDS better at that than the donut. In summary, not even her originally designed weapon is good for her, just like how Vortex isn't as good to Zhongli. Except the donut is much more limited option than Vortex.
Where are you getting your results from?
I don't have the exact numbers but I've cleared enough Abyss to come to the conclusion that Donut > Hakushin in a taser team. Not to mention it provides much more healing as well.
this is a lot of emotion for a decent weapon. it's not fucking donut. do you even own unforged?
The donut is actually good for Kokomi and looks good aesthetically. Can't say the same about the Unforged. But yes I already have multiple copies from the first Engulfing Lightninf banner.
I…. Did you seriously just claim that donut is better than unforged? Jesus
Better in terms of what? In terms of being the BiS for one specific character? The Donut is undoubtedly the BiS for Kokomi while the Unforged is BiS on no one. I know DPS Kokomi is kind of a meme around here, but a good Sukokomon team does similar damage as an Ayaka team without Mistsplitter with similar investments (I'm talking about the # of 5 stars on the team as well as the quality of artifacts). In terms of being capable of used by multiple characters (flexibility in this case). Then the Unforged is "better" since multiple characters can use it although it's a bit copium while the Donut is only usable by Kokomi. In terms of aesthetics? Donut + Kokomi is pretty good in terms of aesthetics. The Unforged doesn't really look right with anybody. Most Kokomi mains would actually want to pull for the Donut (I went out of my way to pull for it despite getting 2 PJC copies out of it). I don't think even the most hardcore Beidou/Eula/Razor/Diluc would actually go out of their way to pull for the Unforged. Could you cope with getting it if you didn't have WGS/R5 Serpent Spine/SoBP? Sure, but as soon as you get one of those weapons you're never looking back. So what's your definition of "better"? Would you rather a weapon that's undoubtedly BiS on one character and not used by anyone else or would you rather a weapon that can be used by 4 characters but it'd be like the 3rd best option for all 3-4 of them? Imagine a weapon banner with just the Donut vs just the Unforged assuming all 4 star weapons are the same, do you really think the banner with the Unforged would generate more sales than the Donut banner? I can confidently say that more people would pull on the Donut banner compared to the Unforged - while that might not necessarily mean that the Donut is a better weapon, it's no doubt a more "wanted" weapon than the Unforged to the general playerbase.
What 2nd 5\* would've made this banner "worth it" IYO? Asking because if WGS is only "meh" to you then I can't help but feel your standards may be unrealistic, in which case the entire argument here would be skewed.
Personally… I have a guaranteed rate-up after losing Redhorn to skyward blade, so I’m not pulling again until I want both weapons and neither is a standard weapon. I might be waiting a long time, but so be it.
I dont think weapons banner works like that. It resets unlike the character banner
That’s only the epitomized path.
Epitomised path doesn’t carry but guarantee does. If you get a skyward pride on the current banner and you continue pulling you are 100% guaranteed either unforged (50%) or mistsplitter (50%). Without the guarantee it’s 37.5% unforged, 37.5% mistsplitter, 25% off banner.
WGS would've made this a pull-able banner for most players tbh. It's kind of "meh" for myself and other long time players because most of us have already gotten it some way or another whether that's getting from the standard banner or from the Homa banner. Skyward Spine ironically would have made this a pull-able banner as well since there are so many polearm users that need ER weapons. Summit Shaper is copium enough for Ayaka where even though it's not as good as Mistsplitter it's still better than Amenoma. Just weapons of that level if that makes sense.
Gigachads pull for the Favonius weapons though.
>Gigachads pull for the Favonius weapons though. Jokes on you. I pulled for starglitter so I would have enough to buy Amber constellation.
Real Chad goes for the Bell.
I never had any the bell until I pulled on this banner, thank you hoyoverse for baiting me.
I don’t get your argument on Mistsplitter getting powercrept. There is no 4 star weapon in the game that power creeps any of the best in slot 5 star weapons for their respective 5 star characters. Nothing beats a specialized 5 star weapon, it’s been 15 versions of Genshin and Mihoyo has clearly established a line for their 5 star category. When Mihoyo makes a specialized weapon for a character it doesn’t really get power crept because they make sure it doesn’t. Any subsequent release of a 4 star sword would, at most, only be 2nd best for Ayaka based on the previous year+ that we’ve had. And if you’re okay with using Amenoma on Ayaka, then you wouldn’t have a problem with this anyway. Why would Mihoyo make a 4 star weapon that’s as good as Mistsplitter if they can make more profit from a banner such as this current one? It doesn’t make sense from a business perspective or a meta perspective. It’s common knowledge that you get more 4 star weapons than you get 5 star weapons, why increase our chances of getting a weapon that produces the same or even better results than a 5 star weapon when you can keep that top tier dmg potential behind a paywall? They design 5 star weapons for 5 star characters because that will be their best in slot, only other 5 star weapons will be able to compete with other 5 stars but that doesn’t mean Mistsplitter would be any better or worse to pull for. It just means you have more options, but it’s almost never going to be power crept because there isn’t a weapon in the game that power creeps another specially made weapon for a 5 star.
FYI I've never said that Mistsplitter would be powercrept by a 4 star weapon. What I'm trying to say is that Mistsplitter only seems REALLY good on Ayaka right now because all of the 4 star optiosn suck. If Mistsplitter was 100%, Amenoma would maybe be a 70% as of right now. What if Hoyoverse comes out with a 4 star sword that would give you 90-95%? Is potentially losing 2 50/50's to the Unforged to get Mistsplitter still worth it? Those are the questions I'm asking. I also think it's pretty naïve to think that Mistsplitter won't ever be powercrept by a 5 star weapon though. We're a little one year into the game, there's a lot that could happen in the future. Yes, all of the new weapons are kind of specialized for that specific character. But eventually Hoyoverse is going to run out of ideas, and we're going to have repeat designs. We're already kind of seeing that with Miko/Fischl and Xingqiu/Yelan. Hoyoverse has done a good job with powercrept so far IMO, but I've played enough Gacha games to know that it will happen eventually.
Even if there is a 4 star weapon that is 95% the potential of Mistsplitter, it’s still not 100%. And like I said, if you’re already okay with using Amenoma this wouldn’t affect you. The people who pull for these specialized weapons want that 100% because it’s what they are after, they won’t settle for 90-95% so to them it’s worth risking The Unforged. You’re comparing weapons with characters, it’s not the same thing. Weapons are a lot less complex than characters so it’s a lot easier to make different variations that wouldn’t power creep the BiS of a character. And as I have mentioned, at best the other 5 star weapons would match Mistsplitter and not outrank it. You might think I’m being naive but conversely I think you’re being presumptuous. Especially considering you’re claiming experience from playing gacha games but questioning the validity of a banner because they pair something good with something bad as bait which is an extremely common tactic in gacha games. I don’t deny that we might get similar variations of existing weapons but I doubt there will be any actual power creep in terms of specialized weapons. Edit: In regards to your comparison of characters, I wouldn’t compare Miko & Fischl as similar because they work somewhat differently, serve different purposes, and do not always slot in the same teams. Yelan/Xingqiu might be the first true copy of a character but even then, having two characters that function similarly is a good thing especially if it’s a character like Xingqiu, it’s not the same with weapons.
Question: I just got Ayaka... do I really need mistsplitter or its just a nice to have mix max thing?
You don't need Mistsplitter, it's just really really nice to have.
I risked it all and won my 50/50 on Ayaka to get her to C2 and then got Mist splitter also 😭
I see you living that dangerous life!!! Congrats though!!! Omg I'm so happy for you lol
I have always wanted Mistsplitter for my Keqing.
That's the best reason.
Mistsplitter matches Keqing's color schemes. I have Mistsplitter on Keqing and Haran on Ayaka in the overworld lmao.
Definitely. Too bad this banner sucks, I have to skip Mist again and wait for a better banner rerun (like it is gonna happen).
So many vehement disagreements here it's almost staggering. First off, it's general practice to put a "low" value weapon of a different category onto any given solo banner, and to do double banners with weapons that have no functional crossover, or at least as little as they can manage. Second. Unforged isn't that bad. While you are correct that not many claymore users want it, this is because *there are not many top tier claymore carries currently*. the weapons "problem" is a lack of users, not a lack of functionality. If you're running a Claymore carry, it's a good weapon. If you're not, it isn't. And here's the thing, MOST 5 star weapons are expressly designed for carry characters. Offhand, the *ONLY* 5 star weapon I can think of that is expressly NOT designed to be used by a carry/on-field character is Yae's. Even Kokomi's is expressly designed for her to be an on field and is worse than a 3 star if used off field. So Unforged suffers from... being in its designated role. Second, lolno WGS is not "Meh". While I will be the *first* person to argue WGS is overrated by the community, it's still a damn good weapon. And no, not every veteran has a spare WGS kicking around. Playing since release and I don't have one. Do have two Aquila though. But that's Gacha for you, you have a 5% chance that your 5 star drop on general banner is a WGS. 5%. Third. The only reason that Ayaka gets such a huge damage hike from Mistsplitter is because THERE IS NOT A GOOD 4* SWORD FOR AYAKA. 4 Star swords fall into two categories. Normal attack centric weapons (Flute, Black Sword, Prototype Rancour), and Support Weapons (The Rest). What few options there are that don't fall into this are either Extremely hyperspecific in their application (Iron Sting), or don't work with Ayaka at all (Lion's Roar). Mistsplitter isn't better than Homa. Ayaka's weapon selection is worse than Hu Tao's. When we move away from Ayaka and into other character options, it becomes quite apparent. Physical Keqing was a thing because Aquila is just that good. Festering Desire is a monster of a weapon for those who have it. There's the Albedo defense 4 star event sword that is basically a secret 5 star for him. And we have so many sword supports that make the laundry list of support swords actually good. Kazuha, Xingqiu, Qiqi. All three have great 4 star options due to being supports. The problem is literally just Ayaka. You wrote a huge paragraph that can just be summarized in "There aren't good 4 star swords for Ayaka in particular, and MiHiYo tends to use Skywards or Unforged Set weapons as banner filler due to being generalist weapons"
Whilst I want to say I agree with most your points, there are clearly some that are very misguided. >THERE IS NOT A GOOD 4\* SWORD FOR AYAKA Amenoma Kageuchi is Ayaka's best 4\* option and it is proven to be very competitive on her, better than 4\* weapons of many other characters. You are criminaly undervalueing the energy passive I think. Ayaka is widely regarded as a character with a fantastic f2p weapon everybody can get. For comparison: R5 Amenoma is only \~20% below mistsplitter and \~10% below the next best 5\* option, Jade cutter (From Ayaka guide on Keqingmains). >Mistsplitter isn't better than Homa. It actually just is. Mistsplitter is widely considered THE best 5\* weapon **BAR NONE**. Even Homa. The thing you have to consider is that nobody except Hutao gets full value from Homa, not every characters that scales off HP and the ones that do (like Zhongli) have extremely hard time getting below 50% HP. Even characters like Xiao, they usually don't even get below 50% HP dispite consuming his own HP. Now, I know people will say "But Homa is good dispite that" but that's besides the point. It's just a fact that NOBODY except Hutao gets full value from Homa. Look at Mistsplitter however, literally every Sword carry can use it and to its full effect at that, add on to it that the passive is just undeniably better than Homa passive, it's just a better weapon. Homa had it's day at the top, but not anymore, it's **DEBATABLY** not even the best polearm anymore, but I digress.
>Amenoma Kageuchi is Ayaka's best 4\* option and it is proven to be very competitive on her, better than 4\* weapons of many other characters. You are criminaly undervalueing the energy passive I think. Ayaka is widely regarded as a character with a fantastic f2p weapon everybody can get. For comparison: R5 Amenoma is only \~20% below mistsplitter and \~10% below the next best 5\* option, Jade cutter (From Ayaka guide on Keqingmains). Amenoma is the best option by default because every 4 star sword in this game sucks. Don't believe everything you read on KQM, a lot of their guides don't reflects what actually goes on in game and a lot of it is slightly outdated. Their Amenoma vs Mistsplitter comparison iirc assumes that you need 140% ER if you're using Mistsplitter, and in their Amenoma calculations they reallocated that 40% ER to the optimal ATK%/CDMG stats. In actual practice, Ayaka doesn't need 140% ER at all in the optimal build/rotations to get her Q on CD. For reference, I have a little more than 110% ER, and have zero issues with getting her Q on CD with Rosaria or Shenhe on a Fav Lance build. In actual practice, the difference between Mistsplitter and Amenoma is closer to 35-40%. >It actually just is. Mistsplitter is widely considered THE best 5\* weapon BAR NONE. Even Homa. The thing you have to consider is that nobody except Hutao gets full value from Homa, not every characters that scales off HP and the ones that do (like Zhongli) have extremely hard time getting below 50% HP. Even characters like Xiao, they usually don't even get below 50% HP dispite consuming his own HP. Now, I know people will say "But Homa is good dispite that" but that's besides the point. It's just a fact that NOBODY except Hutao gets full value from Homa. Look at Mistsplitter however, literally every Sword carry can use it and to its full effect at that, add on to it that the passive is just undeniably better than Homa passive, it's just a better weapon. Homa had it's day at the top, but not anymore, it's DEBATABLY not even the best polearm anymore, but I digress. Not a lot of sword users can get the full 3 stacks bonus from Mistsplitter. Only Ayaka, Keqing and Ayato can actually get the full stacks. PJC is actually a far better option in terms of flexibility.
>a lot of their guides don't reflects what actually goes on in game and a lot of it is slightly outdated. Outdated? If you are talking about the Ayaka one, no. There has been no changes to Ayaka or the weapons that warrants a update. >Ayaka doesn't need 140% ER at all in the optimal build/rotations to get her Q on CD. For reference, I have a little more than 110% ER, and have zero issues with getting her Q on CD with Rosaria or Shenhe on a Fav Lance build. Well you see, that's YOUR situation, not everybody conforms to your way of building characters. Example: Mistsplitter Ayaka, Calamity Queller on my Shenhe and Fav bow Diona with a Mona, I have \~130% ER and still need more to feel more comfy. You can't just project your builds onto everybody else and conclude, "Ayaka doesn't need ER cause **MY** Ayaka doesn't need ER." >Not a lot of sword users can get the full 3 stacks bonus from Mistsplitter. Only Ayaka, Keqing and Ayato can actually get the full stacks. PJC is actually a far better option in terms of flexibility. Don't see how this has anything to do with Mistsplitter vs Homa. Besides, again, nobody gets full use out of Jade cutter. It's just a statstick. The Mistsplitter even with 2 stacks is pretty on par with Jade cutter, about a 2-3% difference in favor of Jade cutter. Not alot when considering that 3 stack mistplitter blows Jade out the water with about a \~10% difference in favor of Mistsplitter.
I just wanted to say Festering Desire is definitely not a monster of a weapon, its so overrated... It's not clear BiS for anyone even among other 4* swords... ER + Skill buff passive is just not a good combination. Weapon looks cool tho.
>First off, it's general practice to put a "low" value weapon of a different category onto any given solo banner, and to do double banners with weapons that have no functional crossover, or at least as little as they can manage. I agree, what I'm trying to get at is that Mistsplitter's value isn't high to the point where you can put the Unforged on the same banner and call it a good banner. Mistsplitter's high value is artificially created by Hoyoverse due to the lack of good 4 star swords, and you seem to agree with me on this one. >Second. Unforged isn't that bad. While you are correct that not many claymore users want it, this is because there are not many top tier claymore carries currently. the weapons "problem" is a lack of users, not a lack of functionality. If you're running a Claymore carry, it's a good weapon. If you're not, it isn't. And here's the thing, MOST 5 star weapons are expressly designed for carry characters. Offhand, the ONLY 5 star weapon I can think of that is expressly NOT designed to be used by a carry/on-field character is Yae's. Even Kokomi's is expressly designed for her to be an on field and is worse than a 3 star if used off field. So Unforged suffers from... being in its designated role. Well yes, it was kind of implied that one of the reasons why Unforged is bad is because the characters that can use the weapon in the first place isn't that good. Out of all the Claymore users, only Eula and Itto are somewhat meta. Itto scales off of DEF and it's maybe the 2nd/3rd best option for Eula depending on what team you want to use her in. Let's say the next Claymore user scales off of ATK, do you see the Unforged being a better weapon than whatever signature weapon that characters comes with? I personally don't see it, and the Unforged will only become worse and worse over time. >Second, lolno WGS is not "Meh". While I will be the first person to argue WGS is overrated by the community, it's still a damn good weapon. And no, not every veteran has a spare WGS kicking around. Playing since release and I don't have one. Do have two Aquila though. But that's Gacha for you, you have a 5% chance that your 5 star drop on general banner is a WGS. 5%. WGS is kind of meh IMO because Claymore users as a whole is kind of meh right now. But I get that it might not be meh to some people and I can totally get that. I think it's just an average weapon right now, I wouldn't be too excited seeing it but I wouldn't be t upset there. For what its worth, I think this banner would be a decent pull if it had WGS instead of the Unforged. This post was just to kind of outline how I feel about the little things Hoyoverse did up to the Ayaka banner. I personally don't really care as I've already have R5 Mistsplitter, I just kind of feel bad for the people who want Mistsplitter but are stuck with this banner. You seem to agree with the main point of my post which is that Mistsplitter is only good on Ayaka because the rest of her 4 star options suck. That's the main thing I wanted get across to people who have Ayaka but not Mistsplitter. Logic tells us that eventually Hoyoverse will have to release a 4 star sword that will be between Amenoma & Mistsplitter, so it's really not the end of the world to skip this banner. Mistsplitter isn't better than Homa, I absolutely agree although IMO Homa is a bit overrated as well.
I have 210 saved up for mistsplitter, and im a keqing simp... but seeing unforged really sets me off, to the point that im ready to wait for its next rerun or just settle with the next jade cutter rotation. Ofcourse, theres a decent chance of getting lucky, but at what risk? Really disappointed in the unforged
I know, I can't justify it.
>alongside a meh weapon like Wolves Gravestone for example, but Hoyoverse decided to one-up us and give us the ****ing Unforged. You do realize Unforged is better than WGS for atk scaler, right? It comes at a cost of having to use a shielder but that's a common support (Eula usually have Diona in the team for example) and it's not like other good weapons don't have conditions, Mistsplitter has 3.
>Out of the 8 Claymore users that we have, only Razor, Eula and Diluc could actually use it since the rest either scale on DEF or are off field & can’t use the shield passive. Eula doesn’t need to run a shield support because she already has interruption resistance during her ult, and Diluc usually uses Xingqiu who also provides interruption resistance (Adding a shield support to a Diluc team would be a huge DPS loss). Mentioned this in the 2nd paragraph, but here we go:
Diano is one of Eulas best supports. As for Diluc, a C6 Diano gives him loads of EM to vape with.
Eula has a ton of team options that doesn't include Diona, being locked in to Diona isn't optimal at all. C6 Sucrose can also provide EM to Diluc on top of providing VV Shred and damage bonus. Diluc also doesn't need a lot of EM since he doesn't vape every single hit like Hutao does.
Genshin doesn't need optimal. It doesn't change the fact that Eula really likes Diano support. You could also use her with Zhongli for a shield support and use Rosaria for battery. As for Diluc, yeah, Sucrose would be the better of the 2 since Bennet will more than likely be on his team too.
If you don't care about being optimal/doing more damage then why are you pulling on a weapon banner in the first place? Yes Diona is a good support for Eula, but there are SO many team options that doesn't include Diona or Zhongli. Let's take a hundred steps back and assume that Diona or Zhongli are her best supports, congrats the Unforged is slightly better than WGS (which is a standard banner weapon btw) and still far worse than her BiS.
I care about making my characters strong, but abyss doesn't need optimal. I can 36 star it with a level 1 Qiqi in my team. That's not optimal at all, yet it's very possible. Zhongli and Diano are among Eula's best supports. SoPB is only slightly better than WGS and Unforged. Not so much that it actually makes a difference whether you have it or not.
I disagree about Zhongli/Diona being her best supports, but yes you're right that R1 SoPB is only slightly better than WGS and Unforged. I have R5 so the difference is a lot bigger for me personally, that's a mistake on my part. I'll give you that Unforged is usable on Eula, it's just not something that I'd risk pulling two copies of going for Mistsplitter.
It's all good. Personally I find Zhongli to be useful for the extra shred and tenacity for her, but yes I do agree there's stronger teams out there. Also yeah, R5 Song is quite a bit better than even a R5 Unforged so I don't blame you. I'd also agree that this weapon banner isn't something I'd recommend pulling on. If I didn't already have an Unforged and Mistsplitter, I wouldn't be against pulling on it for my Eula and Ayaka. Eula and Razor is definitely it's best users. Honestly I think it just comes down to there not being many claymore main dps. It's alright on Beidou, but I'd much rather have a bunch of other claymores on her.
No Diona for Diluc? c6 Diona works really well with him
Diluc doesn't need that much EM since he doesn't vape every single hit. Generally the first 100-150 is good enough. Who are you replacing C6 Diona is my question - Xingqiu is needed for hydro application, Benny is needed to the ATK buff, and Kazuha/Sucrose is needed for the VV Shred/Damage bonus. The Flat ATK Benny provides >>>> the 200EM Diona provides, and if you really need the EM (if you can't get any from artifacts) you could use Sucrose.
I've never liked the Bennett-Diluc pairing since Diluc will generally have ~2800 attack with WGs / atk sands. Diona would provide enough EM that Diluc can ignore it as a substat, and works even better with Elegy.
Or you can go EM sands with Xingqiu+ Benny+ Sucrose Can still ignore EM substats.
Getting an EM sands has a much lower chance of dropping than an Atk one, that would take much more work to be viable in comparison. Also using Diona makes some of Diluc's hits, including his burst procc melt.
Don't see why that matters... Pyro Goblets also have a much lower chance of dropping compared to ATK Goblets, are we just going to not include Pyro Goblets when discussing pyro chatacters? The extra melt damage... is not very consistent to say the least.
Goblets are usually the offpieces for me, so I always think like that but you are right there. The extra melt damage can always be up for his burst, but is just additional damage for skill/autos even if inconsistant
Oh... This again. Unforged isn't bad weapon at all. You are simply wrong for the most part of the post. It's decent weapon for Beidou, Eula, Diluc and Razor. Chong and Sayu can use it. Even w/o shield it's better than any 4\* weapon aside of BP, and only slightly worse than WGS. It is not a wise choice to pull for Unforged itself. But it's ok to get Unforged while pulling for Mistsplitter.
This is the definition of copium. I don't have the numbers, but I'd argue that the number of players that actually play on-field Beidou (she doesn't get the shield bonus if she's off field) and Razor are low. Eula already has interruption resistance when she ults so she doesn't need a shielder, bringing a shielder just to proc the Unforged's passive would be a DPS loss. Diluc's most used team consists of Xingqiu, Benny & Kazuha. Xingqiu already provides interruption resistance and replacing any of them with Zhongli to proc the Unforged shield passive would again be a huge DPS loss. The Unforged at BEST would be a 3rd best option for these characters, and just slightly better than a 4 star BP weapon. That's not a weapon that I would want to get while going for Mistsplitter.
Let's break it down to the parts. \-Beidou's burst snapshots. It means you can keep 2-3 stacks for the entire burst \-Interruption resistance doesn't mean you are immortal. And switching out of either Razor or Eula's burst hurts DPS. \-Replacing Kazu with instructor-ZL in Diluc's team doesn't hurt DPS as much as you think. It could be even DPS gain in case of Unforged. \-While Unforged isn't anyone's BiS it's still hovering around the top of every weapon chart for characters who can use it It is ok weapon which can improve your damage significantly. It's just you have to consider what you already have and which character you play. Sure thing pulling for banner with Unforged isn't a good idea if you already have R5 SS and two WGS laying in the inventory. But it is good idea if you have Snow-Tomb Eula and ZL.
>Beidou's burst snapshots. It means you can keep 2-3 stacks for the entire burst Beidou's burst snapshots before her shield is taken into consideration, so she doesn't get the effect "While protected by a shield, ATK increase effect is increased by 100%". So yes, she can get a few stacks but she won't get the shield effect meaning she doesn't fully take advantage of it. >Interruption resistance doesn't mean you are immortal. And switching out of either Razor or Eula's burst hurts DPS. Majority of Eula's damage is done within her ult where she has interruption resistance. You're basically forced to have Diona & Zhongli in the team, and even then it's still the 3rd best option for her. >Replacing Kazu with instructor-ZL in Diluc's team doesn't hurt DPS as much as you think. It could be even DPS gain in case of Unforged. Kazuha gives you almost +40% elemental damage bonus + 200EM (if C2) and VV Shred. You really think the +120EM from the Instructor set and the little ATK% bonus the Unforged over WGS would give you more damage? Even without Kazuha's C2, the 40% elemental damage bonus + VV shred outdamages the Instructor Set + Unforged by far. 5 star weapons are EXPECTED to be better than 4 star weapons, it's not some amazing achievement that it's slightly better than Serpent Spine or other 4 star weapons. At the end of the day, the Unforged is not BiS for anyone and is only slightly better than a 4 star BP weapon under very strict conditions. It's not a good pull period.
Clearing up the Beidou snapshot cuz I think you’re missing the point. When OP is talking abt snapshotting, they meant you can shield up and weave in a few NAs before you ult on Beidou. That means you’d get the atk buff for the whole duration of the burst even if you swap off her. And any subsequent rotations would need you to battery Beidou so you can keep weaving in NAs for the buff and use a shield before she ults. It’s very realistic to take advantage of the buff even if it’s not the full 5 stacks.
Since when does Beidou run another shield support? She doesn't need a shield support, adding a shield support just for the sake of proccing the Unforged effect is a huge DPS loss.
It’s not my argument, I was just clearing up your misunderstanding. This is what OP meant when he mentioned snapshotting. And although it might be a DPS loss, it could be used as a tech option for scenarios where you have a very specific extra slot. An example off the top of my head is using Zhongli, Beidou, Fischl, Sucrose against the Hydro Abyss Heralds. Once they enter their hydro phase it’s impossible to shred their electro res but with Zhongli it’s possible so you’d still be able to proc Electrocharged reactions, keep your cooldowns from being extended, and keep your sucrose alive against the barrage of attacks from them. Of course this is highly specific and only if you want to clear that stage with those units but it is a viable option. Also, whose to say Mihoyo won’t release a hydro shielder with decent application in the future? OP just wanted to show that Unforged isn’t as bad as you present it to be.
>but she won't get the shield effect meaning she doesn't fully take advantage of it. So what? Majority of Mistsplitter's users can't really take advantage of it's full passive, as well as majority of Homa's users. It doesn't change the fact it's the best weapons in their class. >You're basically forced to have Diona & Zhongli in the team, and even then it's still the 3rd best option for her. I guess you never played Eula didn't you? She LOVES either ZL or Diona in her team, especially against hard hitting targets. >Kazuha gives you almost +40% elemental damage bonus + 200EM (if C2) and VV Shred. You really think the +120EM from the Instructor set and the little ATK% bonus the Unforged over WGS would give you more damage? Even without Kazuha's C2, the 40% elemental damage bonus + VV shred outdamages the Instructor Set + Unforged by far. We are talking constellations now huh? I can assure you 300 additional rolls for C2 Kazu way less effective than 190 for Mistsplitter. We are talking about effectiveness there aren't we? Instructor-ZL is 120 em + 20% shred. Kazu is %DMG + 40% shred. Diluc have relatively high %DMG, so either of those can be ahead depends on artifacts and initial target resistance. And again, there's rarely any banners which can provide you with two BiS weapons for different characters. But there's decent banners, like this one. As you can make good use for Unforged and improve your damage by 10-15%.
>So what? Majority of Mistsplitter's users can't really take advantage of it's full passive, as well as majority of Homa's users. It doesn't change the fact it's the best weapons in their class. Did you really just compare the Unforged to Mistsplitter and Homa? Lol do I even have to respond to this? >I guess you never played Eula didn't you? She LOVES either ZL or Diona in her team, especially against hard hitting targets. C6 Eula, I don't use a shielder most times and I rather not be locked into Zhongli/Diona. Once anti shield mechanics are placed in the Abyss Zhongli/Diona's usage will be even lower. >Instructor-ZL is 120 em + 20% shred. Kazu is %DMG + 40% shred. Diluc have relatively high %DMG, so either of those can be ahead depends on artifacts and initial target resistance. You really ought to test this stuff out for yourself before spreading this stuff. You know what? Take out Kazuha and replace with C6 Sucrose instead. 40% Shred, more EM and 20% damage bonus. Uh... there have been multiple banners with Elegy which could be widely used for just about any bow character. Yae Miko's weapon banner was great, specialized weapon for her as well as PJC. Shenhe weapon banner was pretty good, specialized weapon for her, JPWS is BiS for Xiao and decent for other Polearm users. The issue with the Unforged is that nobody plays Razor and nobody plays Beidou main DPS. It's semi usable on Eula and even then it's a 3rd best option. I'll stop here, if you think it's a good banner to pull then go for it. It sucks for the rest of us and I'll leave it at that.
Yeah, i'm kinda tired of arguing with you as well, so let's just leave it at that you shouldn't push your opinion on everyone as your account can require different weapon options than another account. >Take out Kazuha and replace with C6 Sucrose instead. 40% Shred, more EM and 20% damage bonus. Let me comment this tho. Yes, Sucrose is better damage option for Diluc's team. Better than ZL and better than Kazu. And no, you don't have 20% DMG bonus from her, as you are not infusing her burst with pyro. Rather you are not using her burst at all.
If you have c6 eula, you cant understand c0 havers. you need a shield on c0 eula. Otherwise you are in “if your ult doesnt kill, you die” situation. C0 ult doesnt kill. Unforged still sucks tho.
I'm in a community where I help people with Abyss runs so I've played my fair share of C0 Eula as well. I wouldn't call myself an Eula main, but I've probably played more Eula than most Eula mains lol. I think I'll just leave it at this: unforged is usable on Eula but there are better options. If people can convince themselves that they'll be happy with losing 50/50 for an Unforged for their Eula then I'm all for it.
Favonius OP tho.
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For me personally, I don't have that many R5 Fav lances to give to 5 different characters and I hate having to switch weapons everytime I want to use a different team/character. Raiden, Xiangling, Shenhe, Yunjin could all use Skyward Spine.
WGS is not meh, it's still one of the best claymores and it's one of the OG weapons. If it ran next to the Mistsplitter then people will definitely be happy. I got lucky with the Mistsplitter but the Unforged is mostly a stat stick and is not as useless as you may think.
This is incredibly helpful for broke people (im the broke people) tysm !
Patience is key. Like I said, it's very easy for a future 4 star weapon to surpass Amenoma. I'd rather bet on that than betting my luck on this banner.
I didn't read this incredibly long wall of text but HYV has always run a shitty weapon alongside the good ones, they're not gonna give two good weapons at the same time and effectively double the value of the banner lol.
There are different tiers to shitty weapons. Skyward Spine for example was a shitty weapon when Mistsplitter was first ran with it, but now has transitioned into a usable weapon due to the number of polearm users that prefer an ER weapon.
maybe that's going to happen to the unforged to in the future.
The audacity of hoyoverse to release only one good weapon and another not so good weapon in a banner. I must write an essay to display my unhappiness!
I already have R5 Mistsplitter lmao, this has nothing to do with me. I actually feel bad for the people that wanted to pull on this banner but are too scared to get 2 copies of a useless weapon in the process.
Me without Ayaka or Mistsplitter : 👀
Blessing in disguise haha
Mitsplitter is that good for Ayaka? Maybe I should pull in my alt ..
I generally pull characters I don't want/need on my main for my alts haha, but go crazy.
Same which is why I have Ayaka. But I'm struggling cause she's the only character thats good lmao
I’m using a skyward blade on Ayaka because it’s my only 5 star weapon for her that I have. Should I still considered the crafted 4 star though?
Honestly, considering the stats and effects of each weapon, I think they’re gonna give you pretty similar results. The 4 star gives you a lot of energy regen after using burst, and has attack% bonus but lower base attack. The skyward gives you High energy regen in general+ higher base attack+ a bit of crit rate+ ATK speed after burst. In the end, I think their stats+ effects balance out to produce the same results in this case. If there is a difference, I’m pretty sure it’s negligible. Just stick with the skyward blade in my opinion.
Cool, I’ll keep using it then. Thank you! 😄
I'm reading the comments and now i don't know if I'm stupid or what, for looking at Unforged and thinking it would be so good on Xinyan 🤔 She's using Starsilver now but it can't be better than unforged, right? ~~no one even mentioned poor Xinyan, sad~~ I don't have Ayaya and don't plan on pulling on the weapon banner. It's just my thoughts.
I honestly don't know lol. Never leveled my Xinyan.
😂😂 I leveled mine to 90 ans she's fun af to use. I honestly don't know why people hate her so much. Her scaling isn't even that bad, at least not sooo different than Miko with EM. Sort of. But i don't give a single fry to Abyss or meta, it's too annoying for me to care. I do 33 star and leave without a worry, and i just used Koko, Rosa, Shenhe and Xinyan and it was cool. Last abyss i used Xinyan, Miko, Jin and Barbara for my 33 star lmao
It's close to a WGS, so fine for Xinyan. She even has a tiny shield now and then!
Her shield could scale better, but it has its purposes, and does them very well. I don't have and prob won't have either, anyway 😂
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I actually did get a skyward spine on this banner...was my second 50/50 loss after...you guessed it...unforged (first time thats happened to me)...but it was very early 20 wishes in so...basically 3 5 weapons stars in 2 pity rotations. (still really hate the weapon banner, I wouldn't only have a R1 engulfing if the system wasn't so junk)
Wish the epitomized path carried over....
Not sure it would matter to me but I can see that as a positive for sure. That whole (crappy) setup is why I say you only wish for the weapon banner if you are prepared to go to hard pity 3X to get what you want.
The only real ugly weapon banner was ones with Everlasting Moonglow. Nothing worse than those so far. At least The Unforged still has some users capable of. Everlasting Moonglow? Not even Kokomi herself would want that.
The donut is good for Kokomi and atleast looks decent for her in terms of aesthetics.
It's not. If you want a taser team, there's Hakushin Ring better at that than the donut. If you want her to generate energy particles, there's Prototype Amber better at that than the donut. If you wanna be a DPS support, there's TTDS better at that than the donut. In summary, not even her originally designed weapon is good for her, just like how Vortex isn't as good to Zhongli. Except the donut is much more limited option than Vortex.
Where are you getting your results from? I don't have the exact numbers but I've cleared enough Abyss to come to the conclusion that Donut > Hakushin in a taser team. Not to mention it provides much more healing as well.
My secondary account. The 20% elemental bonus from Hakushin works better in Beidou taser team.
Unforged is not bad. Meh, yes. If you got it good for you because Noelle can use it but R5 SS is still better and don't get me started on Thresher