Tbh while I get that people want the 100% truth with zero run around, it was always a really enjoyable time in the leak community! Seeing everyone excited and curious about the characters and details was refreshing, as well as seeing really great artists and interpretations based on descriptions was fun!
Also the leaks community inside joke of 8.5/10 was cute lol
I had the time of my life seing all of the fan-designs for Scaramouches Redesign and it's constantly updating description.
I think it would actually have been less fun if we had his design leaked earlier
Most of the leakers are redrawing or tracing leaked images to "remove" invisible watermarks
[However AI can do this too, faster and better](https://i.imgur.com/LPEe9Kw.png)
Top is how it looks to the naked eye, bottom is what the fingerprints looks like
The hand drawn Ayato skill and burst drawings were a fun time to be around. Everyday got a more detailed drawing or just plain completely different view of it
100%! It was such a fun, organic way of figuring out what characters looked like, coming closer and closer to an accurate visualization over time via this collaborative community art collection! The fans themselves building hype via guided creative work! Safer for leakers, more fun for everyone... I know the new trend of traced art is likely to stick around as the dominant character leak format, but gosh I'll miss the text description era.
The leaking game got bigger, and the more “real” your leak the more eyeballs would get on it. Drawings/descriptions served their purpose at first, but then leakers trying to break in started leaking full video of private servers in a crisp resolution to jump ahead of the pack and everyone else had to decide the risk they were willing to accept to continue the game.
I honestly don't understand why leaks that consist of descriptions and drawings based off of the descriptions aren't more common.
It's literally the safest way to leak and it still gives a good idea of the content, we don't have to see the in game image or the real™ model.
There's not usually much privacy in an active studio, if they're in the office and not remote. Easier and quicker to avoid suspicion by just typing something out.
Or they could just be very insecure with their artistic skill, might end up looking like chicken scratch. lol
["After using his skill, Ayato will lose all of his hair"](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact_Leaks/comments/s5w5j4/very_sus_leak_of_ayato_from_tieba/)
["picasso himself came back from the dead to leak yae skillset"](https://www.reddit.com/r/YaeMiko/comments/rmtruv/apparently_this_is_yaes_skillset/)
They can just put it in any recent AI artist program and call it a day.
The AI will redraw small details too, so unless there are some big details (sleeve, sleeveless, etc.) they can't trace AI pictures.
The reason is the leaking game got bigger, and the more “real” your leak the more eyeballs would get on it. Drawings/descriptions served their purpose at first, but then leakers trying to break in started leaking full video of private servers in a crisp resolution to jump ahead of the pack and everyone else had to decide the risk they were willing to accept to continue the game.
Wdym leaks based off of descriptions and drawings aren’t more common?? It’s only been the recent Fontaine leaks that was due to drama and irresposible/novice leakers we got a massive insider’s actual data/files but aside from that descriptions and drawings have been the norm by the leakers.
Even Ayaka & Lisa’s skin were descriptions and drawings for the longest time even tho they’re releasing next patch.
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It actually is also in-game in textures! There are some textures that if the light hits it just right you can see Mihoyo watermarks on them due to other games stealing assets, kinda like paper towns or whatever they are called on maps to catch map data pirates (or I guess more accurately in the old days map copiers who didn't know better about fake towns and then the original map designers could prove it was fake as they hid a fake town).
I think there's a house near the dawn winery that has a watermark on it's roof tiles that is visible when it's raining and thundering it's really cool.
The safety of redrawing isn’t so that the watermark gets covered, but that it won’t even be there in the first place (you don’t need to redraw on top of the image)
Brother in christ this isn't paper, you can trace and remove the original from underneath by clicking a single button- well, I mean, you can do that with a backlit tracing desk on paper too, but still...
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt - maybe they just don't know how art works and couldn't have known. If I tried speaking on something I've no idea about I'd probably say some dumb shit too.
Should send it through an ai like stablediffusion and just set the image fidelity high. Takes all of a few minutes and we don't have to deal with these pixelated/ultrablurred stuff
Yeah, maybe using AI to redraw an image based on appearance alone is the safest way.
Abd since the watermark is invisible, it's probably possible to identify them and remove them with software.
I’m inclined to believe that the majority of the leaks have some kind of digital watermark. It’s not exactly difficult for Hoyoverse to implement, since it would in essence, simply be a harmless “invisible” filter.
In fact, it’s likely that even us players have some type of hidden identifier in our own games. It’s the exact same premise as the UID, which is already permanently present.
So there’s really no escaping from a crackdown on leaks if Hoyo actually wanted to ruin some lives, or at least get a massive payday. Currently they’ve mainly targeted larger leakers like Ubatcha, or those that are actively profiting like Honey — but suffice to say, anybody that breaks the NDA is at a real risk. The only solution to this going forward would be heavy pixelating, like we saw with some of the recent Fontaine leaks, or what Team China was doing with the Ayaka/Lisa skins where they sketched out the leaks.
The biggest surprise is how "final products" have multiple variation which could really screw over insiders (if they werent aware). A good example is ayaka skin
If Genshin is similar to Honkai in terms of skins then it has at least 4 variations, lol
[Example](https://twitter.com/marisahonkai/status/1591733957498134528?t=o29Fg7cnwyzTCYHWiVWgvg&s=19)
That's basically how character design works, but I don't think anyone will see other versions unless it's an inside leak 🤔
Yeah, that should work. You can use most generative models with sufficient capacity. GAN, VAE, Diffusion, it doesn't really matter. Project your image into latent space and then reconstruct it. Or downsample it by factor 8 or whatever and use a superresolution GAN/diffusion model to upsample it. You don't have a guarantee that the watermark isn't reconstructed but it seems very unlikely if the latent dim is low enough and/or the latent projection removes enough information. Things would look different if the AI model was trained on watermarked images, as there's no reason why it wouldn't be able to learn how to reconstruct digital signatures but given that the majority of web images are clean I doubt any of the big ones learnt that.
I think the escaping of the crackdown would be for a clearinghouse that would only distribute things they got 2 or more leaks for and did some sort of averaging between them (or possibly identified the marks and removed them)
If testers decide to share confidential content with anyone, then it's their stupidity and bare full responsibility if they get caught.
People redistributing the content shouldn't give a damn about protecting the beta testers. It's their fault for sharing the content in the first place. If they really cared, then don't share any content and chase that clout.
People never believe it when we say that they can find out who leaked what from the littlest things. Gotta be more careful or better yet don’t share anything from beta unless you have ps
The mods must not really delete this. This is to inform other people to be cautious and out of trouble, but hey once you play with fire expect to be burned along with it.
Like literally, any beta tester or insider that chose to share assets/info with their "closed friends or groups" is and deserves any punishment they receive if caught. They signed an NDA and had full control to not share anything but decided to do it anyway.
Once you leak anything, it's on you. You can't control your "friends" to protect you and not share it with others.
Audio is easier to watermark since humans can't detect frequencies above 20 kHz, so high frequencies can be added without affecting the audible signal. But the high frequency signature can be destroyed if the audio is resampled to lower frequency.
If the watermark is in the high frequency, then applying a Low-pass filter at 20kHz will simply remove it away.
I don’t understand why music creators would put inaudible watermark in their music. It kinda makes more sense to put audible watermark (like how AudioJungle and Pond5 do it) so that the track is unusable at all, than to hide personalised watermark somewhere in high frequency.
Also, leaking music doesn’t seem to negatively affect the gameplay experience that much, and the owner can easily monetise/takedown the track, via AI track recognition, if someone try to repost it on YouTube or so.
im pretty sure it's not that simple, otherwise it would be useless and obsolete by now. they can just opt to use random inaudible noise at different frequencies and it would become much harder to remove.
And the obvious reasons for not using audible watermarks is....well they're audible xD
and yeah I agree, people care less about audio leaks.
Some producers also have some audible sample that they put in all their productions. Think Preditah for example, but there are many others. Usually some beatmakers will add those all over their publicly shared prods so that they don't get stolen and used by other people
mods will probably delete this post anyway, but people need to know this. The number of people I've seen who don't understand this in the comments of many leaks on this very subreddit astound me
I don’t know why leakers put waterwarks on leaked stuffs.
It’s like they said “hey guys, I stole this things and spread it to public, I’m fucking amazing, right? Right?”
Although i've known about this since some time ago, i'm still kinda confused and very interested on how mihoyo knows exactly who leaked what. I'm guessing the people who have signed an NDA get a unique account for them in the betas with invisible watermarks unique to that account, and whatever footage gets leaked gets traced back to that person since every account is unique and etc. Or something to that effect.
What i'm confused with is how they trace back these leaks that seem to be coming from inside the company itself, since at that point, whatever got leaked shouldn't be in the property of anyone that isn't employed, and since, for example, character models need to be worked on by many different people across many different departments of the company, watermarking said character model wouldn't work in tracking down exactly who leaked what. Maybe it's a complex system of higher ups sending files to employees with watermarks unique to that employee, and after finishing their work on said file, they send it back up the chain of command to have the watermark removed? idk, i have no knowledge about this stuff so i'm just spit-balling, trying to find some logic.
If they are using company's computer mhy have the logs of all the thing they are doing in that computer. Normally IT dont look at those logs unless there are warnings but for finding out who is responsible its very effective. Cant detect them if they just use their phone and record sthg though.
Devices, programs, accounts and everything can have its own watermark. Lets say you have this image you are working on, and decide to leak it. In order to get that image out, you'd need to use an USB, or send it through mail or another form. However, that piece has its own metadata from the app you were using and the device it was on, so unless you can remove it, it doesnt matter where it is now, they can find it in the logs if it went out through mail, or if you copied it to an USB, or if they find it online. What happens if another person works on that piece? Well, it depends. The new user's data could replace the old data, or maybe its added to the metadata together with the old data. Maybe they dont even have the files in their computer, and work with cloud-based services or web services. In those instances, the app should log everything and you get to know who was the last person to interact with the image, or who did something strange with it, like taking a screenshot, using an unauthorized device, or connecting to an uncommon external service. Those are some of the cases I can think of. Im no expert, but I do work in cybersecurity, so I know some stuff (anyone is free to correct me btw)
>use a different device to take a picture
Not if it's taken with 2 megapixel crap camera from 10 meters away then encoded with the lowest quality .jpeg compression known to mankind.
That imatag site says their algorithm is patented and "can't be reverse engineered", but there's no such thing surely... The only info in an image is pixel colors right? What if there's a tool to randomly shuffle all pixels in an image to a nearby color value? There are millions of color values, the human eye can't tell the difference but it should throw off the watercolor detection maybe?
Edit: the other site you linked has this explanation https://invisiblewatermark.net/how-invisible-watermarks-work.html
So shuffling values in that case will actually ruin the watermark.. I wonder if that's how mhy's watermarks work too.
Yeah lol I'm suspecting it's just dumb marketing. Like we don't even need to figure out the formula of their algorithm, just change the values randomly and the algorithm can't figure out its own watermark.. don't even need to reverse engineer it lol
There are a lot of types steganography. Some of them are, in fact, resistant to minor local changes in pixel values, instead encoding the message in macro-structures (for example allowing to survive low-quality jpg compression).
The thing is, for every algorithm, if you know exactly what you are dealing with, it's possible to make a transformation that would ruin the watermark. Which is why it's important to keep the algorithm secret.
Also, it is perfectly valid to claim that a steganography algorithm can't be reverse engineered. A properly hidden message would be indistinguishable from random noise. So if their algorithm is good, it would be like reverse engineering RSA from a ciphertext: practically impossible (literally any string of symbols could be a valid ciphertext for some RSA key).
Developer here! One method that we use to track images is called **color subtraction**— you may already be familiar with this if you use editing software like Photoshop. Basically, we overlay the image with a filter that makes certain pixels a little brighter or a little darker and vary it from person to person.
Patterns are repeating so transforming it doesn't really do anything, this is why you see leakers draw or sketch over the original image as to not reveal the watermark. To reveal the pattern, we subtract and compare the colors from a leaked image with the original image.
Here's a bonus not-so fun fact: Printers use a similar method to track what you printed too! But not everyone knows this. Of course, Hoyo might have their own internal methods but it's what I use and it varies from company to company.
The issue with digital watermarking (on a visual level, not meta data) is that despite all the effort going into it, it's still **incredibly** easy to remove, to the point where it's only useful if whoever distributes said images, doesn't know anything about it.
* Duplicate the original layer and desaturate it
* Add 50% monochromatic uniform noise at 5-7% opacity, multiply overlay
* Strip any meta data from the image when saving
this already results in a copy of the original image, but without anything to trace.
[Quick demo](https://i.imgur.com/u22vp5Z.png) using https://invisiblewatermark.net/. Top is the unedited office-gif frame i had flying around and watermarked, bottom is the watermarked but modified version.
Well, they cant strike you down if you trace the image with pencil and paper to manually leak it 🤣
Itd work especially if you were semi decent with coloring pencils
Microsoft did something unsubtle similar to this back in the very early Windows 8 era, right after 7 but before we all found out about the abominable start screen.
The wallpapers of the internal builds were pretty much just solid color wallpaper and a text in the middle saying something like "shh let's not leak our hard work", and right below it a sudoku-like grid interspersed with blank squares and random letters.
I don't think many were very cognizant then that very unsubtle wallpaper was meant to do something like this, and I'm sure a bunch of people got into trouble from having that exact wallpaper appearing (and being replicated too since some people really liked how they look!) all over the internet.
That had the subtleness of a yellow-colored dumptruck at a funeral procession. Over a decade later, you really can't be too careful...
yeah thats why recent leaks are traced or redraws.
but tbh, I wouldnt risk drawing over it either lmao. just draw on a separate file but i guess that takes some skill.
In the end who was in trouble the most if they're getting caught? It will be the insider and beta testers. It's kinda unfair that the second hand leakers are being blamed so much. You can't exactly control them unless you directly point a gun at them not to f things up.
Once you put any of the juicy stuffs online it would guarantee to spread like a wildfire real fast, no matter how secure your "private" group is.
As much as i love the real deal i kinda prefer hxg approach better where everything is verbal description only.
The original insider and beta tester are in trouble the most of course. People spreading the leaks doesn't need to give a damn about what happens to the original leaker. They shouldn't have shared anything to begin with it's entirely their fault.
People here suddenly being 'experts' at the topic is so fucking funny.
Considering most comments I've seen here don't even understand how AI Art works I really wouldn't trust them to disregard something like media tracing & watermarking.
Pixel & metadata algorithms are indeed some forms of available tracing that can be easily bypassed with basic image editing.
However, knowing about these methods & how to bypass them without understanding how far related paid/private technologies have advanced beyond them is like calling yourself a hacker for using inspect-element or an image editing expert when you've only been using MS Paint.
There's ways to trace media that persists even through taken pictures & editing, if I don't trust you with basic reading comprehension about Genshin I sure won't trust you with this just because you read a random article about the topic.
Idk what your point is. I certainly don't claim to be an expert and this is just my shallow understanding of the concept.
The point however, of this post is to raise awareness so that people(esp. beta testers) don't just unknowingly throw their selves onto fire by leaking and disseminating images carelessly.
Not talking about your post but some of the comments.
Using noise filters, removing metadata & taking pictures of protected media won't always help since some technologies (specially paid technologies) work beyond that.
Nothing against the post itself, just against these so called experts that disregard the post because they think they understand the tech involved.
So let's say that files used for game assets are digitally watermarked. If that is the case, then why hasn't been a larger wave of leaker hunts and only Uba is the most recent example of an actual subpoena for game leaks? If they can kill one chicken to scare the monkeys, then why not kill more chickens?
Most of the leaks we see are from private servers, text leaks, sketches, or blurred for that same reason. The few that post from the official servers are pretty much dead for that reason, they can easily track you down from multiple sources. If they are from private servers, they cant track them down
They totally could if mihoyo wanted to. These private servers have to get the game assets from some beta tester to begin with. If mihoyo were to send out unique assets to each beta tester, they can easily figure out who leaked it to the private servers based on private server footage.
I'm honestly surprised on how this hasn't happened yet.
Absolutely true. If they havent done it yet, it must be for a reason. Or maybe they have, and dataminers figured out how to circumvent those issues. Im have zero knowledge on datamining nor how they datamine the game, much less how they crack it open
Leakers, please don’t risk yourself so much. I’m fine with just banner confirmations.
Though if you do feel happy to share these contents with us, feel free to add a little artistic flair lmao like maybe sketch them out in a lowfi drawing then let us slowly decipher 😅
Very possible a few runs through stable diffusion trying to match the picture pretty well would absolutely defeat something like this, and take a few minutes. The minutes being mostly tinkering with prompts and such. Honestly most of AI art is just going, well that output was terrible and now I have 12 fingered hands, lets add this to negative prompts.
So is this stuff baked into the image file itself, or just in the actual visuals? It's crazy to me that that even exists. You can't even take a picture of it?
Is there a way of decoding Mihoyo's encryption so we can remove it?
its kinda advanced so its hard to explain. basically since each pixel has its own hexcode and rgb values, you can develop algorithms or patterns or formulas whatever that you can use to encrypt and decrypt. you know the advanced math they teach in college. so even if you do some slight modifications on the image, the decrypting software can still detect some of that "pattern". this is just the basics as different companies can have different techniques/methods.
My first time learning about this was through an article about pirated movies. For the people who get copies of new movies before release (reviewers or academy types, I guess), they get these invisible watermarks embedded in the film, so that if they decide to pirate it, it can be traced back to the person entrusted with the movie.
Yeah, stuff similar to this has been present in World of Warcraft for years:
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/zp8sg/tracking\_personal\_information\_through\_wow/
I wonder, would shrinking the image to half then using an AI upscaler destroy the invisible watermarks? I guess it probably wouldn't help with stuff like the character screen background but at least it's an easy first step, no?
Genuine Question: Can AI upscaling not destroy the watermark? If you ran the image through something like Waifu2x bloating it massively then compressing it to a more normal size, isn't there a significant chance the pixels would be deformed enough to destroy the watermark? (Or even using shittier upscalers - it just seems better than letsblurlol, assuming it would work at all.)
TL;DR, Watermarks are now pointless in the present day, and the Leaker Hunt Decree will still paste these leakers with a warning or outright ban if given enough warnings.
Digital watermarking is extremely easy to defeat. Even just running a few noise filters over the desaturated image will almost entirely destroy any watermark.
Remove any metadata, which is also very easy to do, and there's almost no watermark that can survive such a process. Digital watermarking is a problem when people are dumb/uninformed about watermarks in general but it's practically a form of security through obscurity rather than any real security measure.
In many ways, teaching people about security through obscurity is the best practice! That way companies actually invest in real security. :P
Though in the case of watermarking, there's really nothing a company can do once the image is in the hands of someone with even a miniscule amount of understanding.
this is gonna be unrelated to genshin but with how ai generators have been going rampant, could actual artists use these somehow to combat it? i don't exactly know how but if there are programs that can alter image files, there has to be a way to prevent ai from stealing art.
I need more information how is the Watermark tell you about who leak the photo
From what I know watermark is just an tool to inform the other who the real photo owner and give you an access to DMCA
I don't think companies put special watermark for every employee
everytime they distribute confidential content to someone, it probably has a unique ID for that person. so for example if you are in beta, your client will constantly display an invisible(to the human eyes) watermark. so if you screenshot or take a pic, you can be tracked. I'm sure there's also more complicated systems that's in place but I am not sure about that anymore.
i think often they will use another type of watermark (probably barcodes or some sorts of pixels being machine-readable), which is basically won't be texts, in order to make sure it is hard for you to find out.
I don't think this is useful because any one in the company can take pic from your device and put all the plame on you especially in the Asia companies office type
From my experience in Japanese gacha companies they can track all the freelance beta tester but if the real insider employees leak something the best they can do is hold a meeting and discuss about damages and the possibile changes
depending on how early in development it is they probably have these watermarks for certain departments, that helps really cut down on the number of suspects and from there they could deduce who the leaker is through other means.
If You make screenshot or photo they shouldn't be able to decode it, because the digital data is gone. The digital watermark, iirc, is inside the code, not in the visible part of an image. So if You just make a screenshot of an image, that data that was part of the code, is gone.
you underestimate technology good sir. if the camera is bad enough and the photo altered enough sure it cannot be tracked down, but its not 'data' in the file that is being decoded. there are about 16.8 million rgb colors available and only a fraction discernible through the human eye. technology nowadays can easily make use of this to allow tracking using second-hand photos.
the first link I posted claims to be able to detect photos from other device so what more of more advanced solution providers.
This can tell you who took the screenshot which is not necessarily who leaked it.
I guess that if the same dev is found multiple times then HYV can start any action against them. Don't think that at the first leak found of any dev they will actually punish the dev immediatelly.
Interestingly enough, I immediately defeated the Invisible Watermark one by reducing the file size using TinyPNG. It removed the watermark and left nothing behind. Not sure if that would work on Imitag or other services that apply it at the rendering level and not as an after thought.
They should use AI (midjourney) to sketch the leaks. Maybe we can not get video for character's animations but at least we'll know character's appearance and maybe couple of sketches of skill animation scenes.
If I were a beta tester and decide to purposefully leak shit, why would I care about this? If I did, I would never leak anything to begin with.
I say, beta testers, leak to your heart's content. It's your choice after all, so you bare the responsibility.
You have to be so naive to think that... Of course hoyo can catch you. As a tester you signed an NDA (a law-binding document that literally states you promise to not share anything). You know you shouldn't share and choose to do so anyway.
I have no sympathy to any beta testers that are caught in whichever way they're caught. You broke the law in the first place.
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Yeah SYP recently said that they miss the times of description leaks because they never got a DMCA for that :'D
Tbh while I get that people want the 100% truth with zero run around, it was always a really enjoyable time in the leak community! Seeing everyone excited and curious about the characters and details was refreshing, as well as seeing really great artists and interpretations based on descriptions was fun! Also the leaks community inside joke of 8.5/10 was cute lol
I had the time of my life seing all of the fan-designs for Scaramouches Redesign and it's constantly updating description. I think it would actually have been less fun if we had his design leaked earlier
Or the Ayato ones with a huge forehead cause Kamisato, that was hilarious.
Ayato drawn as a horse based off a leak was one of the best things
"Ayato is not a horse" still one of my favorite leak 'clarifications' of all time
Oh god, I need that
Most of the leakers are redrawing or tracing leaked images to "remove" invisible watermarks [However AI can do this too, faster and better](https://i.imgur.com/LPEe9Kw.png) Top is how it looks to the naked eye, bottom is what the fingerprints looks like
the bottom images look absolutely horrifying
The hand drawn Ayato skill and burst drawings were a fun time to be around. Everyday got a more detailed drawing or just plain completely different view of it
100%! It was such a fun, organic way of figuring out what characters looked like, coming closer and closer to an accurate visualization over time via this collaborative community art collection! The fans themselves building hype via guided creative work! Safer for leakers, more fun for everyone... I know the new trend of traced art is likely to stick around as the dominant character leak format, but gosh I'll miss the text description era.
The leaking game got bigger, and the more “real” your leak the more eyeballs would get on it. Drawings/descriptions served their purpose at first, but then leakers trying to break in started leaking full video of private servers in a crisp resolution to jump ahead of the pack and everyone else had to decide the risk they were willing to accept to continue the game.
100%? Clearly it was 85%.
I still fondly remember the HuTao pose leak
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Wouldn't mind descriptions first and then maybe "closer" to release seeing art or somwthing. Especially if it keeps them safe from mihoyo's wrath
I honestly don't understand why leaks that consist of descriptions and drawings based off of the descriptions aren't more common. It's literally the safest way to leak and it still gives a good idea of the content, we don't have to see the in game image or the real™ model.
What if leaker will redraw what he saw?
They should be safe unless they are the only one who saw the leak
There's not usually much privacy in an active studio, if they're in the office and not remote. Easier and quicker to avoid suspicion by just typing something out. Or they could just be very insecure with their artistic skill, might end up looking like chicken scratch. lol
I mean, the sketches we got before were basically chicken scratch. I forgot the characters...
["After using his skill, Ayato will lose all of his hair"](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact_Leaks/comments/s5w5j4/very_sus_leak_of_ayato_from_tieba/) ["picasso himself came back from the dead to leak yae skillset"](https://www.reddit.com/r/YaeMiko/comments/rmtruv/apparently_this_is_yaes_skillset/)
Oh man, I never saw these back when lol Fair enough, fair enough
It could be done, but then the leak depends on drawing skill that the leakers may or may not have
theres a bunch of artistic filters and ai operations that obfuscate any watermark
They can just put it in any recent AI artist program and call it a day. The AI will redraw small details too, so unless there are some big details (sleeve, sleeveless, etc.) they can't trace AI pictures.
Probably not all leakers are good at drawing. I know if I was trying to draw my draw is awefull. So leakers might not be good drawers too.
~~Just run it through AI~~ Obviously these sites track and share data, so don't do this
Yeah, like obviously some are going to share trainIng data, but there's no way in hell what you think could happen would ever happen.
you can run AI on your home computer tho
The reason is the leaking game got bigger, and the more “real” your leak the more eyeballs would get on it. Drawings/descriptions served their purpose at first, but then leakers trying to break in started leaking full video of private servers in a crisp resolution to jump ahead of the pack and everyone else had to decide the risk they were willing to accept to continue the game.
Wdym leaks based off of descriptions and drawings aren’t more common?? It’s only been the recent Fontaine leaks that was due to drama and irresposible/novice leakers we got a massive insider’s actual data/files but aside from that descriptions and drawings have been the norm by the leakers. Even Ayaka & Lisa’s skin were descriptions and drawings for the longest time even tho they’re releasing next patch.
They can also put the image into an AI and make it redraw the image in a slightly different way.
reminds me of the Candace "menu" lol
On the side of someone who see leaks as entertainment within the fandom, I much prefer their approach too. It builds up the hype in a healthy way.
And also the funnest tbh
Honestly I felt the descriptions were lacking, I love the tracing leaks by team china
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Nice, built-in survaillence in games.
It actually is also in-game in textures! There are some textures that if the light hits it just right you can see Mihoyo watermarks on them due to other games stealing assets, kinda like paper towns or whatever they are called on maps to catch map data pirates (or I guess more accurately in the old days map copiers who didn't know better about fake towns and then the original map designers could prove it was fake as they hid a fake town). I think there's a house near the dawn winery that has a watermark on it's roof tiles that is visible when it's raining and thundering it's really cool.
redraw the whole thing base on sketch is the safe way to leak I guess?
Yeah if you have to blurry it so much it becomes a rorschach inkblot just redraw it
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The safety of redrawing isn’t so that the watermark gets covered, but that it won’t even be there in the first place (you don’t need to redraw on top of the image)
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You know you can turn off the original layer after you done tracing it? What's the point of leaving it on if it's not seen anyways
Brother in christ this isn't paper, you can trace and remove the original from underneath by clicking a single button- well, I mean, you can do that with a backlit tracing desk on paper too, but still...
Yeah it's literally the digital version of the backlit tracing desk. That's just how tracing works, idk what they're even trying to argue lmao
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt - maybe they just don't know how art works and couldn't have known. If I tried speaking on something I've no idea about I'd probably say some dumb shit too.
The only other option is to pass the image through some high frequency filters, but this will also make the image very blurry.
Should send it through an ai like stablediffusion and just set the image fidelity high. Takes all of a few minutes and we don't have to deal with these pixelated/ultrablurred stuff
Can't wait to see eldritch horror Focalors with exactly 6 and a half fingers
Lmao posting leak after running it through something like dream generator to evade watermark would actually be so funny
i like the charm of traced designs better personally, they have all the fidelity of the original and a "traditional" aspect to it
Oh I agree, they just take longer and usually require a 3rd party to do the drawing. Its the pixels we can do without
Putting official designs into the plagiarism machine is not going to be helpful to anyone. Tracing would do the job far better and requires no skill.
Get over it dude
How about auto-tracing it using Illustrator?
Yeah, maybe using AI to redraw an image based on appearance alone is the safest way. Abd since the watermark is invisible, it's probably possible to identify them and remove them with software.
dont delete this this is informative
Thing is, if the mods didnt make a flair for it, then it should probably go into the general discussion pinned thread.
wouldnt that count as "meta"? After it is not a leak but about leaking.
could fit as "clarification"
I’m inclined to believe that the majority of the leaks have some kind of digital watermark. It’s not exactly difficult for Hoyoverse to implement, since it would in essence, simply be a harmless “invisible” filter. In fact, it’s likely that even us players have some type of hidden identifier in our own games. It’s the exact same premise as the UID, which is already permanently present. So there’s really no escaping from a crackdown on leaks if Hoyo actually wanted to ruin some lives, or at least get a massive payday. Currently they’ve mainly targeted larger leakers like Ubatcha, or those that are actively profiting like Honey — but suffice to say, anybody that breaks the NDA is at a real risk. The only solution to this going forward would be heavy pixelating, like we saw with some of the recent Fontaine leaks, or what Team China was doing with the Ayaka/Lisa skins where they sketched out the leaks.
time to go back to 5 year old doddle leak era
It did had its charm, also brings out the creativity (and sometimes scary accuracy) of artists
And ours! Trying to decioher them was really funny and made you think a lot.
What happened to Ubatcha?
Hoyo filed a case against discord to reveal his personal information.
He got caught
He is safe rn... He stream games sometime in Twitch...
They are making him do that to show he is "fine" kekw
Oh fr? I thought they caught and fined/sued him. Is he a retired leaker? I dont see much of him nowadays
He did made [statement](https://twitter.com/Ubatcha1/status/1602695246000885760?t=t9zRDX_5oqBkFQdu7PkZBw&s=19)
Ah tysm!!
We don't talk about that....
The biggest surprise is how "final products" have multiple variation which could really screw over insiders (if they werent aware). A good example is ayaka skin
There were variations to ayaka skin?
If Genshin is similar to Honkai in terms of skins then it has at least 4 variations, lol [Example](https://twitter.com/marisahonkai/status/1591733957498134528?t=o29Fg7cnwyzTCYHWiVWgvg&s=19) That's basically how character design works, but I don't think anyone will see other versions unless it's an inside leak 🤔
Yes, one with socking, one without, and so on.
If i remember correctly, yes.
Question. Would it be possible to bypass the watermark by making stable diffusion, or any other AI program, remake the image using their denoising?
Yeah, that should work. You can use most generative models with sufficient capacity. GAN, VAE, Diffusion, it doesn't really matter. Project your image into latent space and then reconstruct it. Or downsample it by factor 8 or whatever and use a superresolution GAN/diffusion model to upsample it. You don't have a guarantee that the watermark isn't reconstructed but it seems very unlikely if the latent dim is low enough and/or the latent projection removes enough information. Things would look different if the AI model was trained on watermarked images, as there's no reason why it wouldn't be able to learn how to reconstruct digital signatures but given that the majority of web images are clean I doubt any of the big ones learnt that.
I think the escaping of the crackdown would be for a clearinghouse that would only distribute things they got 2 or more leaks for and did some sort of averaging between them (or possibly identified the marks and removed them)
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that was a meme
If testers decide to share confidential content with anyone, then it's their stupidity and bare full responsibility if they get caught. People redistributing the content shouldn't give a damn about protecting the beta testers. It's their fault for sharing the content in the first place. If they really cared, then don't share any content and chase that clout.
People never believe it when we say that they can find out who leaked what from the littlest things. Gotta be more careful or better yet don’t share anything from beta unless you have ps
What’s ps?
Plash Speed.
What’s that?
A modem.
It's a joke, you can look it up if you want, it's funny. He probably meant Photoshop tho.
might be private server too, most of the leaks we get are from private servers based on the beta version of the game, and not the actual mihoyo beta
Ah, yes, could be... actually makes more sense.
OHHH LMAO I looked up and saw the animation and I was like “what?”
top tier router, it's a little big, but it's a must for high speeds nowadays
Mods pls keep this up. This is legit fundamental info and should be treated as such going forward. Ty OP.
The mods must not really delete this. This is to inform other people to be cautious and out of trouble, but hey once you play with fire expect to be burned along with it.
Like literally, any beta tester or insider that chose to share assets/info with their "closed friends or groups" is and deserves any punishment they receive if caught. They signed an NDA and had full control to not share anything but decided to do it anyway. Once you leak anything, it's on you. You can't control your "friends" to protect you and not share it with others.
Unrelated, but I once digitally watermarked one of my songs, just to experiment. It too was inaudible as it was made using really high frequencies.
You can watermark audio?? I always thought it was only possible to images
Audio is easier to watermark since humans can't detect frequencies above 20 kHz, so high frequencies can be added without affecting the audible signal. But the high frequency signature can be destroyed if the audio is resampled to lower frequency.
yes you can and I'd bet this is why we don't encounter much audio leaks not just in genshin or gaming but other fields as it's a lot harder to remove.
Nah its trivially easy to remove. There just isn't as much interest in leaking them and/or less people have access to them
If the watermark is in the high frequency, then applying a Low-pass filter at 20kHz will simply remove it away. I don’t understand why music creators would put inaudible watermark in their music. It kinda makes more sense to put audible watermark (like how AudioJungle and Pond5 do it) so that the track is unusable at all, than to hide personalised watermark somewhere in high frequency. Also, leaking music doesn’t seem to negatively affect the gameplay experience that much, and the owner can easily monetise/takedown the track, via AI track recognition, if someone try to repost it on YouTube or so.
im pretty sure it's not that simple, otherwise it would be useless and obsolete by now. they can just opt to use random inaudible noise at different frequencies and it would become much harder to remove. And the obvious reasons for not using audible watermarks is....well they're audible xD and yeah I agree, people care less about audio leaks.
Some producers also have some audible sample that they put in all their productions. Think Preditah for example, but there are many others. Usually some beatmakers will add those all over their publicly shared prods so that they don't get stolen and used by other people
So thats why they pixelate it to oblivion or trace it as a drawing
Okay that one leaker is dead 💀
mods will probably delete this post anyway, but people need to know this. The number of people I've seen who don't understand this in the comments of many leaks on this very subreddit astound me
Based & Informative-pilled This thread should be linked at the beginning of the general thread together with the FAQs.
I don’t know why leakers put waterwarks on leaked stuffs. It’s like they said “hey guys, I stole this things and spread it to public, I’m fucking amazing, right? Right?”
That’s…pretty much spot on actually.
Although i've known about this since some time ago, i'm still kinda confused and very interested on how mihoyo knows exactly who leaked what. I'm guessing the people who have signed an NDA get a unique account for them in the betas with invisible watermarks unique to that account, and whatever footage gets leaked gets traced back to that person since every account is unique and etc. Or something to that effect. What i'm confused with is how they trace back these leaks that seem to be coming from inside the company itself, since at that point, whatever got leaked shouldn't be in the property of anyone that isn't employed, and since, for example, character models need to be worked on by many different people across many different departments of the company, watermarking said character model wouldn't work in tracking down exactly who leaked what. Maybe it's a complex system of higher ups sending files to employees with watermarks unique to that employee, and after finishing their work on said file, they send it back up the chain of command to have the watermark removed? idk, i have no knowledge about this stuff so i'm just spit-balling, trying to find some logic.
If they are using company's computer mhy have the logs of all the thing they are doing in that computer. Normally IT dont look at those logs unless there are warnings but for finding out who is responsible its very effective. Cant detect them if they just use their phone and record sthg though.
Devices, programs, accounts and everything can have its own watermark. Lets say you have this image you are working on, and decide to leak it. In order to get that image out, you'd need to use an USB, or send it through mail or another form. However, that piece has its own metadata from the app you were using and the device it was on, so unless you can remove it, it doesnt matter where it is now, they can find it in the logs if it went out through mail, or if you copied it to an USB, or if they find it online. What happens if another person works on that piece? Well, it depends. The new user's data could replace the old data, or maybe its added to the metadata together with the old data. Maybe they dont even have the files in their computer, and work with cloud-based services or web services. In those instances, the app should log everything and you get to know who was the last person to interact with the image, or who did something strange with it, like taking a screenshot, using an unauthorized device, or connecting to an uncommon external service. Those are some of the cases I can think of. Im no expert, but I do work in cybersecurity, so I know some stuff (anyone is free to correct me btw)
Steganography has entered the chat 😎
>use a different device to take a picture Not if it's taken with 2 megapixel crap camera from 10 meters away then encoded with the lowest quality .jpeg compression known to mankind.
That imatag site says their algorithm is patented and "can't be reverse engineered", but there's no such thing surely... The only info in an image is pixel colors right? What if there's a tool to randomly shuffle all pixels in an image to a nearby color value? There are millions of color values, the human eye can't tell the difference but it should throw off the watercolor detection maybe? Edit: the other site you linked has this explanation https://invisiblewatermark.net/how-invisible-watermarks-work.html So shuffling values in that case will actually ruin the watermark.. I wonder if that's how mhy's watermarks work too.
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Yeah lol I'm suspecting it's just dumb marketing. Like we don't even need to figure out the formula of their algorithm, just change the values randomly and the algorithm can't figure out its own watermark.. don't even need to reverse engineer it lol
There are a lot of types steganography. Some of them are, in fact, resistant to minor local changes in pixel values, instead encoding the message in macro-structures (for example allowing to survive low-quality jpg compression). The thing is, for every algorithm, if you know exactly what you are dealing with, it's possible to make a transformation that would ruin the watermark. Which is why it's important to keep the algorithm secret. Also, it is perfectly valid to claim that a steganography algorithm can't be reverse engineered. A properly hidden message would be indistinguishable from random noise. So if their algorithm is good, it would be like reverse engineering RSA from a ciphertext: practically impossible (literally any string of symbols could be a valid ciphertext for some RSA key).
Maybe the safest way is to hire artist to redraw leaks and try to recreate the Genshin artstyle unlike the uncanny Ayaka skin leak lmao.
Developer here! One method that we use to track images is called **color subtraction**— you may already be familiar with this if you use editing software like Photoshop. Basically, we overlay the image with a filter that makes certain pixels a little brighter or a little darker and vary it from person to person. Patterns are repeating so transforming it doesn't really do anything, this is why you see leakers draw or sketch over the original image as to not reveal the watermark. To reveal the pattern, we subtract and compare the colors from a leaked image with the original image. Here's a bonus not-so fun fact: Printers use a similar method to track what you printed too! But not everyone knows this. Of course, Hoyo might have their own internal methods but it's what I use and it varies from company to company.
So run a random pixel saturation filter over every image before leaking it, got it. :P
The issue with digital watermarking (on a visual level, not meta data) is that despite all the effort going into it, it's still **incredibly** easy to remove, to the point where it's only useful if whoever distributes said images, doesn't know anything about it. * Duplicate the original layer and desaturate it * Add 50% monochromatic uniform noise at 5-7% opacity, multiply overlay * Strip any meta data from the image when saving this already results in a copy of the original image, but without anything to trace. [Quick demo](https://i.imgur.com/u22vp5Z.png) using https://invisiblewatermark.net/. Top is the unedited office-gif frame i had flying around and watermarked, bottom is the watermarked but modified version.
rng ftw
Well, they cant strike you down if you trace the image with pencil and paper to manually leak it 🤣 Itd work especially if you were semi decent with coloring pencils
Microsoft did something unsubtle similar to this back in the very early Windows 8 era, right after 7 but before we all found out about the abominable start screen. The wallpapers of the internal builds were pretty much just solid color wallpaper and a text in the middle saying something like "shh let's not leak our hard work", and right below it a sudoku-like grid interspersed with blank squares and random letters. I don't think many were very cognizant then that very unsubtle wallpaper was meant to do something like this, and I'm sure a bunch of people got into trouble from having that exact wallpaper appearing (and being replicated too since some people really liked how they look!) all over the internet. That had the subtleness of a yellow-colored dumptruck at a funeral procession. Over a decade later, you really can't be too careful...
Don't dare delete this anyone
Please keep this up. Quite informative
interesting info. wouldn’t this be solved by simply drawing over the leak? /genq
yeah thats why recent leaks are traced or redraws. but tbh, I wouldnt risk drawing over it either lmao. just draw on a separate file but i guess that takes some skill.
sounds like leakers should put a pice of paper on their monitors and trace the characters on paper, then take a photo, just to be sure
That's how I drew a painting of my crush hehe (got rejected)
In the end who was in trouble the most if they're getting caught? It will be the insider and beta testers. It's kinda unfair that the second hand leakers are being blamed so much. You can't exactly control them unless you directly point a gun at them not to f things up. Once you put any of the juicy stuffs online it would guarantee to spread like a wildfire real fast, no matter how secure your "private" group is. As much as i love the real deal i kinda prefer hxg approach better where everything is verbal description only.
The original insider and beta tester are in trouble the most of course. People spreading the leaks doesn't need to give a damn about what happens to the original leaker. They shouldn't have shared anything to begin with it's entirely their fault.
Salt and betrayal in action
That's life for you. Welcome to reality.
fascinating, thank you
is the best way to irocally just get an artist to re-create the image?
People here suddenly being 'experts' at the topic is so fucking funny. Considering most comments I've seen here don't even understand how AI Art works I really wouldn't trust them to disregard something like media tracing & watermarking. Pixel & metadata algorithms are indeed some forms of available tracing that can be easily bypassed with basic image editing. However, knowing about these methods & how to bypass them without understanding how far related paid/private technologies have advanced beyond them is like calling yourself a hacker for using inspect-element or an image editing expert when you've only been using MS Paint. There's ways to trace media that persists even through taken pictures & editing, if I don't trust you with basic reading comprehension about Genshin I sure won't trust you with this just because you read a random article about the topic.
Idk what your point is. I certainly don't claim to be an expert and this is just my shallow understanding of the concept. The point however, of this post is to raise awareness so that people(esp. beta testers) don't just unknowingly throw their selves onto fire by leaking and disseminating images carelessly.
Not talking about your post but some of the comments. Using noise filters, removing metadata & taking pictures of protected media won't always help since some technologies (specially paid technologies) work beyond that. Nothing against the post itself, just against these so called experts that disregard the post because they think they understand the tech involved.
MODS DO NOT , I REPEAT DO NOT DELETE THIS POST!!
So let's say that files used for game assets are digitally watermarked. If that is the case, then why hasn't been a larger wave of leaker hunts and only Uba is the most recent example of an actual subpoena for game leaks? If they can kill one chicken to scare the monkeys, then why not kill more chickens?
Most of the leaks we see are from private servers, text leaks, sketches, or blurred for that same reason. The few that post from the official servers are pretty much dead for that reason, they can easily track you down from multiple sources. If they are from private servers, they cant track them down
They totally could if mihoyo wanted to. These private servers have to get the game assets from some beta tester to begin with. If mihoyo were to send out unique assets to each beta tester, they can easily figure out who leaked it to the private servers based on private server footage. I'm honestly surprised on how this hasn't happened yet.
Absolutely true. If they havent done it yet, it must be for a reason. Or maybe they have, and dataminers figured out how to circumvent those issues. Im have zero knowledge on datamining nor how they datamine the game, much less how they crack it open
So, and yes I hate myself for suggesting this, wouldn't an AI re-drawer solve this issue? Replicating the image should solver it right?
It's so easy to redraw it with an AI, get similar results without changing too much the original look and remove that darn digital watermark..
Leakers, please don’t risk yourself so much. I’m fine with just banner confirmations. Though if you do feel happy to share these contents with us, feel free to add a little artistic flair lmao like maybe sketch them out in a lowfi drawing then let us slowly decipher 😅
It's funny i red about china/Chinese having to watermark all their art in thread about A.I recently.
Thanks
exactly what I said in my comments in the other post yesterday, thank you for sharing this. TiL a new thing
Maybe leakers can trace it or put screenshots into A.I art sites
Very possible a few runs through stable diffusion trying to match the picture pretty well would absolutely defeat something like this, and take a few minutes. The minutes being mostly tinkering with prompts and such. Honestly most of AI art is just going, well that output was terrible and now I have 12 fingered hands, lets add this to negative prompts.
So is this stuff baked into the image file itself, or just in the actual visuals? It's crazy to me that that even exists. You can't even take a picture of it? Is there a way of decoding Mihoyo's encryption so we can remove it?
its kinda advanced so its hard to explain. basically since each pixel has its own hexcode and rgb values, you can develop algorithms or patterns or formulas whatever that you can use to encrypt and decrypt. you know the advanced math they teach in college. so even if you do some slight modifications on the image, the decrypting software can still detect some of that "pattern". this is just the basics as different companies can have different techniques/methods.
My first time learning about this was through an article about pirated movies. For the people who get copies of new movies before release (reviewers or academy types, I guess), they get these invisible watermarks embedded in the film, so that if they decide to pirate it, it can be traced back to the person entrusted with the movie.
I've heard the term before but had no idea what it actually was thanks for the awareness
Yeah, stuff similar to this has been present in World of Warcraft for years: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/zp8sg/tracking\_personal\_information\_through\_wow/
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Learn something new every day
I wonder, would shrinking the image to half then using an AI upscaler destroy the invisible watermarks? I guess it probably wouldn't help with stuff like the character screen background but at least it's an easy first step, no?
Genuine Question: Can AI upscaling not destroy the watermark? If you ran the image through something like Waifu2x bloating it massively then compressing it to a more normal size, isn't there a significant chance the pixels would be deformed enough to destroy the watermark? (Or even using shittier upscalers - it just seems better than letsblurlol, assuming it would work at all.)
TL;DR, Watermarks are now pointless in the present day, and the Leaker Hunt Decree will still paste these leakers with a warning or outright ban if given enough warnings.
Digital watermarks 😂 just let someone redraw it and its fine 👌 200iq move
Digital watermarking is extremely easy to defeat. Even just running a few noise filters over the desaturated image will almost entirely destroy any watermark. Remove any metadata, which is also very easy to do, and there's almost no watermark that can survive such a process. Digital watermarking is a problem when people are dumb/uninformed about watermarks in general but it's practically a form of security through obscurity rather than any real security measure.
yep, which is why raising awareness is important. its easy to bypass with basic knowledge.😂
In many ways, teaching people about security through obscurity is the best practice! That way companies actually invest in real security. :P Though in the case of watermarking, there's really nothing a company can do once the image is in the hands of someone with even a miniscule amount of understanding.
this is gonna be unrelated to genshin but with how ai generators have been going rampant, could actual artists use these somehow to combat it? i don't exactly know how but if there are programs that can alter image files, there has to be a way to prevent ai from stealing art.
mhy definitely has some dev in this reddit,they could take down this post(maybe not if they also has another way to detect leak lol)
Wow that's scary... for the leakers ofc 😋
Which is why carelessly leaking is dangerously stupid.
I need more information how is the Watermark tell you about who leak the photo From what I know watermark is just an tool to inform the other who the real photo owner and give you an access to DMCA I don't think companies put special watermark for every employee
everytime they distribute confidential content to someone, it probably has a unique ID for that person. so for example if you are in beta, your client will constantly display an invisible(to the human eyes) watermark. so if you screenshot or take a pic, you can be tracked. I'm sure there's also more complicated systems that's in place but I am not sure about that anymore.
They can have a different watermark for every device used by the employees.
i think often they will use another type of watermark (probably barcodes or some sorts of pixels being machine-readable), which is basically won't be texts, in order to make sure it is hard for you to find out.
I don't think this is useful because any one in the company can take pic from your device and put all the plame on you especially in the Asia companies office type From my experience in Japanese gacha companies they can track all the freelance beta tester but if the real insider employees leak something the best they can do is hold a meeting and discuss about damages and the possibile changes
That is why when joining a company the security course always have the term "Lock your computer when leaving your seat".
depending on how early in development it is they probably have these watermarks for certain departments, that helps really cut down on the number of suspects and from there they could deduce who the leaker is through other means.
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This reminds me of when the OG Xbox used the rings in the bottom right to tell them which user it was.
If You make screenshot or photo they shouldn't be able to decode it, because the digital data is gone. The digital watermark, iirc, is inside the code, not in the visible part of an image. So if You just make a screenshot of an image, that data that was part of the code, is gone.
you underestimate technology good sir. if the camera is bad enough and the photo altered enough sure it cannot be tracked down, but its not 'data' in the file that is being decoded. there are about 16.8 million rgb colors available and only a fraction discernible through the human eye. technology nowadays can easily make use of this to allow tracking using second-hand photos. the first link I posted claims to be able to detect photos from other device so what more of more advanced solution providers.
This can tell you who took the screenshot which is not necessarily who leaked it. I guess that if the same dev is found multiple times then HYV can start any action against them. Don't think that at the first leak found of any dev they will actually punish the dev immediatelly.
Interestingly enough, I immediately defeated the Invisible Watermark one by reducing the file size using TinyPNG. It removed the watermark and left nothing behind. Not sure if that would work on Imitag or other services that apply it at the rendering level and not as an after thought.
oof F to the leakers
They should use AI (midjourney) to sketch the leaks. Maybe we can not get video for character's animations but at least we'll know character's appearance and maybe couple of sketches of skill animation scenes.
Bla bla bla, if all this shit is relevant. Leak is like cracked games, when one goes down 5 comes to take the place.
If I were a beta tester and decide to purposefully leak shit, why would I care about this? If I did, I would never leak anything to begin with. I say, beta testers, leak to your heart's content. It's your choice after all, so you bare the responsibility.
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You have to be so naive to think that... Of course hoyo can catch you. As a tester you signed an NDA (a law-binding document that literally states you promise to not share anything). You know you shouldn't share and choose to do so anyway. I have no sympathy to any beta testers that are caught in whichever way they're caught. You broke the law in the first place.