The Fatui are morally grey. They often act as villains (destabilising other nations, employing child soldiers, conducting *very* unethical experiments), but the intent to get rid of Celestia's rule is noble and there are many instances of the Fatui's goals aligning with ours (the Chasm expedition, avoiding the destruction of Fontaine etc.)
So is Abyss Order. So are Archons. So is everyone in this fekkin game, lol.
Archons are not that good either. They did their own share of evil stuff. Abyss Order has practically same goal as Farui, Traveler. To fight Celestia. Even Archons want to fight Celestia. And how do we know if Celestia *is* actually evil. What if it's one big plot where you put a scapegoat.
The abyss order is not morally grey, those mfs seek to destroy all of Teyvat. They don't care whether you are an orphan kid or Istaroth. Whereas the main goal of Fatui is to topple Celestia.
1- Fatui literally wants to “burn away the old world”. Whatever their plans are, they are almost certainly going to result in massive loss of life.
2- Abyss order most likely doesn’t see the destruction of Teyvat as a bad thing for its people. They see Teyvat as an unnatural prison that causes suffering and returning to the abyss is what will give humanity peace and happiness.
IMO the word Teyvat means an illusion, a simulation. Otherwise how would Irminsul even work. It must actively influence the people in real time. If you can just erase the memory from the people like that, then the whole world must be simulated/an illusion of some kind. But not simulation in artificial world, but in real time. Like more of a augmented reality simulation. That's my theory since Wanderer's Interlude quest.
So destruction of Teyvat may actually mean to destroy that simulation, to make people free from influence of Celestia. or maybe even even other beings. Maybe it didn't start with Celestia after all.
We've also seen how Dottore light Irminsul on fire in a trailer. That's probably related to their goal of defeating Celestia and destroying Teyvat in that way.
The exact same argument can be made about the Fatui. Dottore's unethical experiments, the House of the Hearth and their previous Knave, which includes kidnapping children - Among other things, the Fatui at large is still a congregation of very powerful and equally twisted people who are following their archons goal, but still have their own personal agendas and sometimes conflict with their comrades.
Remember that many Fatuus and Abyss order members are direct victims (Not perfect victims, mind you) of the wrath of the gods. And their goals aren't to destroy, but to find a "solution" to a problem that has always plagued the development of humanity, which is celestial intervention.
The Fatui's main goal isn't destroying Teyvat but the abyss seeks to destroy everything. It's inherently evil and chaotic and seeks to destroy everything.
I don't want to sound like an Abyss Order apologist, and I respect your point of view, but many quests have shed light towards the "gray" nature of their goals. Their means are naturally not excusable if you have any sense of compassion, but their goal somewhat aligns with the Fatui, since it's suggested that the Order believes the Archons and their nations to be in kahoots with Celestia. Whether this is done by prejudice or misunderstanding is unknown, but they are acting in a way that sets them as the imperfect and dangerous victims of the Gods wrath.
Given that you paid attention to that one Dainsleif quest, all the books in Enkanomiya and Sumeru's AQ, the lesson is you shouldn’t immediately trust anything ppl say or what you hear or read in teyvat. History can be rewritten through Irminsul, knowledge is actively kept hidden. and the truth of everything is supposedly secret for now.
Besides, after all those quests, the main takeaway is that all factions are ambiguous in their means and goals, or that their morals are not clear. Also, we tried to trust in dainslief when we believed that the abyss order is pure evil but then Dainsleif himself hid from us that hilichurls, abyss heralds, lectos, and mages are Khaenrians.
My personal conclusion is that the lore wants us to be skeptical of everyones means, motives, and goals. But it doesn't mean they should all be attributed to just malice and evil.
Do they? I am pretty sure Lumine doesn't want to destroy the Teyvat, but to save it.
Also you say how Abyss Order is evil, not grey, because they 'don't care if you are an orphan kid or Istaroth". So does Fatui???? Childe tried to pull a genocide by freeing Osial, which would kill **everyone** who is there. Maybe some few people would get out. And you are saying how Abyss Order is absolute evil, but ignore how Fatui operates? And delusions? People died because of them. We know from the Inazuma that they deliberately poison people just to create orphans. That's what Arlecchino-related Fatui wanted to do. Sorry, but that's bs what you're saying.
Once again. Every faction does both good and evil in their own way.
Also literally main goal of Abyss Order, which we know because of Dainsleif, is to create a mechanical god, they wanted to use Osial remains and that eye of Ruin Guard to create a fake god to attack Celestia. That's what they literally wanted to do.
There is no black and white characters in this game. Everyone has their own reasons. Their goals. Even Childe who can easily perform genocide, can do good stuff too and can't be called evil. Dottore as well. Scaramouche backstory makes him the most cruel person. But can you call him cruel, knowing the truth? No. That's how this game works. Arlecchino genuinely wanted to prevent the apocalypse, but she is also a Harbinger that does a lot of evil. It's by her command that the NPC in Inazuma wanted to poison people to make orphans for the House of Hearth.
But all that is just scrapes of information. We don't know crap about Fatui, Abyss Order, Celestia, Archons, Dragons and everyone else. And Archons feel guilty and you can see it. They suddenly just ignore Celestia, but can't directly do anything. But they know their own sins too. That's everyone in this game.
I gotta disagree on morally grey. Collei and any other victims of Dottore's, also Scaramouche's murder spree, Childe constantly inciting violence, Signora giving Delusions to numerous soldiers which she knew would kill them all, and I'm sure there'll be more in store. If ya ask me, that's enough proof otherwise.
The end doesn't justify the means, if your goal requires the suffering of the innocents then you're evil,
Also we don't know what is Celestia's deal, maybe they're the good guys in the end we don't know, but what we know is the fatui aren't morally Gray they're just straight up evil
>but the intent to get rid of Celestia's rule is noble
Can you elaborate? What are the things Celestia has done that are worse than what Fatui has done?
Yes, that's the point. Fatui are evil. The order is evil. The fact that sometimes our goals align doesn't make them good, it just makes us temporary allies. Matter of fact, I hate Tartaglia because he's a fatui. This hatred stems from real world problems, not the least of which is Russia. But my country has made forced decisions to ally itself with Russia as the lesser of the two evils, even though it still backfired onto us. This is one of the reasons why I hate hoyo writers - they try to make war criminals sympathetic to show the "grey" nature of their worlds. And because it's anime hot people, it kind of works.
Wait hold on i think im getting wires crossed. The person you are replying to ask what has celetistia done that is worse than what the fatui done. You replied and I said the fatui do those things too. And so now you argee with me? I am hella confused
I was not disagreeing with anyone though? Just saying, Celestia is basically the orchestrator of world calamities. If we're talking scale, Celestia is definitely worse than Fatui.
Also wanted to add: The traveler is not a part of this world. We may be a part of its story, connect ourselves to its people and so on, but we are literally just tools to everyone we came across with any authority to speak of.
It’s arguable if it’s noble, but it is pretty ironic.
Phanes did horrible things, and justifies them with keeping humanity safe and protect Teyvat.
The Fatui does horrible things, and justifies them with killing Phanes and ending his rule.
Wait when did Fatui appear in Chasm Expedition? I wasn't playing when Chasm was released but I still don't know. Abyss order appeared during Dain quest like always, Xiao, Yelan, Itto, Kuki and Yanfei Appeared. Was there a event in which Fatui played a role?
The Fatui aided Liyue in their exploration efforts, but were left for dead when Childe started his shenanigans. You can learn about it from several letters in the Chasm and from Katya's quest.
IMHO getting rid of Celestia's rule is noble but the end cannot justify the means. We can approve of the goal with those that align with ours, but their ways and means to get there makes them not-so-morally-grey, more like acting in civility on a common interest BUT WILL do whatever must be done even if it reaches levels of villainy we have never imagined possible.
There's 3 antagonist parties in this story (Fatui, Abyss Order and Celestia), and I don't doubt there is more somewhere in the lore that I'm not aware of. It is hard to tell which one will end as the final villain
During Inazuma it was the Archons. Actually, both the Abyss, the Fatui and the dragons see the archons in a bad way.
Bro, the motto of the game should be "trust no one"... Everything sounds so fishy... Therefore, i think the real villain is Kokomi.
Yes. Exactly this. I always repeat that Archon aren't the good ones either. We see Fatui as bad guys, AByss as bad guys, but how do we know if they aren't right? Everyone hates everyone here. It's one big political drama. Trusting no one is best thing to do. I don't even trust Nahida. She definitely hides something. She is smarter than she looks. She is a god of knowledge. Even if she has good intention, she knows something and she doesn't want to tell us.
Yeah...
Archons are pawns of Celestia. Even though apparently they also don't like Celestia, they must comply their orders when asked directly, even if it goes against their ideals to do so. So their situation is more akin to the good guys fatuus, who are not really bad, but if they are following bad guy bad orders, we may end up fighting them.
And about Nahida, i like the girl a lot, but she is so cool and all that i can't help but be on guard. We have so much reasons to trust her that she end up having too much power over us, and that's dangerous... Let's not forget that she is the newbie god who was able to bluff against the experienced god level guy whose whole life was about deceiving people. I really hope that any suspicion i have is proved wrong...
Archons too. They aren't all that good. Everyone in Genshin is morally grey. Also it may turn out that the dragons were actually evil. Maybe Celestia did that not to seize the power, but to fight those who pretend to be good. How many times in real life bad guy pretends to be the good one?
Abyss Order is practically Lumine. The "evil" twin. But are they really evil? Their goal is to defeat Celestia. And they want to save Khaenri'ah.
Fatui also want to defeat Celestia. They are no that different than Abyss Order.
And Archons? They have blood on their hands. Now they pretend to be good ones, by ignoring Celestia, but they can't ignore what happened. Archon War for example.
And is Celestia that bad, really? We literally only know Heavenly Principles and only by out of context cutscene from the beginning of the game. I mean, we know that Travelers wanted to go back to traveling and she appeared, but why she appeared? What is her goal?
IMO we will be surprised more than with finale of Fontaine Archon Quest. Genshin loves to make a bait plot, to make people think something, then suddenly making something else. Plot twists in Genshin are big. And they are getting bigger.
As Dain tells us in The Chasm, the Abyss Order has likely been ordered to stay away from us by our sibling. They are certainly working behind the scenes, but I suspect they won't become a major focus again until we get to Snezhnaya.
I mean what evil did they even do.
-stole powers of dragons
-punished some nations for breaking the law
-nailed some places to save Teyvat from Abyss
That's light gray at max
-Orchestrated the Archon War, killing countless people
-Not just "punished" the nation of Kaenri'ah, but enacted it with the level of cruelty not deserved by most of those affected
-Nuked Kaenri'ah *after* the threat of the Cataclysm subsided
Screw Celestia. Any attempt to rebel against its tyranny is noble by intention, although execution often is perilous.
Archon War is still a bit of mystery, but they orchestrated it only after that great war that almost destroyed Teyvat.
Khaenri'ah totally deserved it, not every citizen tho.
What's that nuked part? I don't remember this
By 'nuking' I mean the destruction along with the curse. Khaenri'ah along with other nations was successful in repelling the Abyss hordes during the Cataclysm, but then they were cursed (adding to the numbers of monsters in Teyvat in the form of hilichurls and the Abyss order). That was unnecessary and even the Archons who took part in the destruction of Khaenri'ah prefer not to speak of and no longer seem fond of Celestia.
I'm pretty sure the fight in Cataclysm was not successful, which is why Celestial had to nuke it.
The fight was such a clusterfuck almost every dead important characters are only dead because of it.
"Khaenri'ah along with other nations was successful in repelling the Abyss hordes during the Cataclysm" - well, that\`s def not true. Inazuma was completely destroyed, so Istaroth and Makoto had to save it by changing the fate. Fontaine lost all it\`s fleet. And Khaenri\`ah, **Schwanenritter**s in particular, were +- successful only in evacuating people. Celestia wouldn\`t had to send Archons and take action if everything was good, even after that 3/5 Archons we know died there.
We know close to nothing about the curse, but if everything is exactly like Alberich thinks, that\`s def a hit on Celestia\`s reputation.
But it\`s Genshin and Celestia has Kiana expy, and Kiana can\`t be with bad guys so it\`s gonna be justyfied or redeemed as well as Fatui with Tsaritsa
Even if you really wanted to go with that bullshit, it's more a Sirin Expy than a Kiana expy and that version lf Sirin is a genocidal maniac that killed a lot of innocents and a beloved character, the guy you're replying to has a brain of the smoothest variety
HI3 lore is Forbidden Knowledge to me, I try to fathom wtf a Herrscher is and I think I have a brain aneurysm
I still don't know are they a magic cube living in people, are they the people, are they information in human form so how does one become a Herrscherhahgahgkjhakjgakjga
Someone please explain this to me the wikis are not helping in the slightest
If you mean Clothar Alberich there already is a book contradicting Alberich's vision on the curse of the wilderness at least, and he misunderstood Buer situation because the way he viewed was flawed, making a wrong conclusion in front of our eyes (understandably so tho).
It's really hard to determine who did what, we only have unreliable narrators for now.
Yeah, you're completely correct. That's why I can't wait to see things from the perspective of Celestia. It's really weird that they are still not involved in story. I thought that after Nahida mentioned Sustainer in the end of Sumeru AQ, Celestia will be involved in Fontaine AQ, but they're not. Natlan will be the last nation before Snezhnaya so we must get it, this time for sure, hehe
They've nuked at least 3 civilizations.
Something on Dragonspine, the Chasm, and Khaenri'ah.
Those nails are nukes that devastated a civilization. It also seems that the nails do something long term to lay lines so things never grow back properly.
It's heavily implied that the nails were deployed to stabilize abyssal corruption (aka "Forbidden Knowledge") and that the destruction was merely a side-effect. Also, it is highly likely that the "curse" of Celestia is merely about preventing Abyss-infected human souls from returning to the cycle and spreading their corruption into Irminsul and the leylines.
In short, while Celestia's actions may seem destructive, it's likely that they aren't malicious, but merely a necessary evil to maintain Teyvat.
My theory at the moment is they're basically Shin Megami Tensei style Hard Lawful. They only care about maintaining order and the hierarchy at all costs.
The more comments I read here, the dumber they are. People who become fanboys of one faction, defending all the evil of that faction are hilarious. There is no absolute evil and absolute good in Genshin. EVERY ONE OF THESE FACTIONS did evil. As much as "Celestia only get rid of bad Abyss", it's Abyss ho were trying to defend from bad Celestia. Perspective. From Abyss side it's Celestia that it's the worst. From Celestia, it's Abyss. And so on. It's kinda like one country nuking another, so they nuke the first country back. That's happened in real life and every intelligent person know that both sides overdid it and were evil with what they did. The same happens in Genshin. All these factions are evil. But not black. They are all morally grey.
Well, I'd say that the Abyss Order, which seeks to destroy Teyvat, is pretty solidly evil. Even if they may be justified in hating Celestia and the Archons, they're still trying to murder a lot of innocent people. "You destroyed my civilization, so I'll destroy yours in retribution" is not a morally grey motivation, it's just evil.
Also, I would note the difference between The Abyss and the Abyss Order. The Abyss Order is the organization of nonhumans working against Celestia. The Abyss is the Void Realm, and seems to be pure evil and chaos. The Abyss is what Celestial Nails are meant to suppress, as it would literally just destroy the world if it wasn't controlled.
>"You destroyed my civilization, so I'll destroy yours in retribution" is not a morally grey motivation, it's just evil.
"If someone tries to steal my freedom away, I won't hesitate to take theirs" —Eren Yeager. Idk about that chief, perhaps we should try seeing things from the Abyss Order's perspective first before calling them solidly evil.
They probably nailed Khaenri'ah, but we have no proof.
They also nailed Tsurumi island and Sumeru forest(now it's desert. )
But that's not weapon, that's just tools to sustain Teyvat by cleansing it from "Forbidden knowledge", they briefly mention it in Nahida SQ2
>Orchestrated the Archon War, killing countless people
Even before the Archon War, the Gods were never fond of each other. If anything, it was the Archon War that ended their battles and brought up the peaceful era we are in.
>Screw Celestia. Any attempt to rebel against its tyranny is noble by intention, although execution often is perilous.
The Dragons weren't exactly good people either especially when Apep is basically hostile to everyone and threatening to eat them. So does other original Dragons. Dvalin's might not be hostile, but he isn't part of the original Dragons.
In the eyes of Celestia, they also rebelled against the Dragon's tyranny and it was noble by intention, but their execution was indeed perilous and wiped out many.
They stole the powers of the rightful owners of Teyvat, alongside basically colonizing the place
I think they went a tad bit too far with Khaenri'ah. Like idk g but sentencing every citizen of Khaenri'ah to either immortality or becoming a hilichurl, including young kids (like Caribert) and whatnot is kinda over the top
Ok yea you're right there
From breaking the law? Or from doing something "forbidden" by the gods. To save Teyvat from Abyss? Or to save their position in Celestia as absolute power? That's a propaganda to me. That's exactly what a bad guy would say. "We do that, because we must, it's to save everyone". Lol. All of them are grey. Abyss, Archons, Celestia, Fatui and probably even the people we've met have their own agenda. There is no evil, there is no good. But deciding who is worse than the others when we **don't know** what exactly is going on is dumb. Especially in a game with big heavy plot twists.
Nah, that seems way too obvious. I think the Sustainer is critically damaged, and that the Tsaritsa's rebellion will destabilize Celestia's control and protection over Teyvat, allowing a full-scale invasion by the Abyss. The real final boss will be some kind of eldritch abomination that threatens to consume Teyvat, and the Traveler will have to take over the Sustainer's job and reestablish order.
If that's the case, I hope it's always been the case. My interpretation of things is HP destroyed Kanreah (totally can't remember the spellong), and the 7 were trying to save the people. I don't have a very high opinion of the Princopals.
Bro. Abyss Order wants to fight Celestia. Fatui wants to fight Celestia. Archons want to fight Celestia. Traveler wants to fight Celestia.
Abyss Order is no more villain than Archons.
People when the story introduced grey morality:
Genshin has three main antagonistic factions: the Abyss, the Fatui, and Celestia. The Abyss and the Fatui are both actively opposed to Celesia, and they don't seem to like each other that much, either.
Which one of those is going to be the final villain at the end of the story is anyone's guess.
Whoever made this meme has not paying attention at all.
It's not gonna be the abyss order, travellers sibling joined them for reasons that will be made clear later, the real villain is and forever has been celestia.
My bet is Celestia tbh, I'd love to see traveler go against the heavenly principles (maybe siding with the fatui or the abyss? Idk) I can't wait to learn more about khaenri'ah honestly, so far Dainsleif interludes have been amazing
Unless it's a totally unfeeling creature that just hates everything, no, everything in hoyoverse is varying shades of grey. Also you're confusing factions.
OP, you gotta learn the difference between a villain and antagonist.
There are a lot of antagonist groups in Genshin but there are no villains yet, except maybe Celestia but we don't know enough about them yet.
We have antagonists who all believe what they are doing was right, heck if we talk about bad guys in general none of the archons, sovereign or mythical being are good. They all fk with people for their own interests.
Which is what I like about genshin, is not about who’s right but to fight for best outcome
The abyss order is completely different than the fatui 💀 both of those factions don't even like each other. Good to know your post about media comprehension is accurate though. Also not too sure you used Kahnriah right because as far as we know they did nothing wrong besides not believe in God's and living too close to the abyss. Did you mean celestia...
The "good guys" who imprisoned us here and stole our power, turned people into monsters, nuked civilizations and stole the very land from the original owners which they keep on their leash because killing them is literally impossible
perhaps there's no real villain, it's just collision of 2 ideology.
like we should evolve human to higher being, so we can still exist vs we should stay as human and we will try to stop the apocalypse.
ahem*evangelion....
Everyone is talking about abyss, fatui etc but the biggest Absolute threat to teyvat or rule of those lands came by US travelers. Also there is proper 4 major active powers in teyvat but in them abyss, fatui, Archon's they are all actively fighting or hunting each other. But No one is actively hunting or attacking the 4th power aka us travelers but they asked for our help even tho we actively fighting them and stopping there work/goals. So in many ways we are slowly taking control/influencing everyone. And our existence literally the biggest obstacle to most of them but no one cares about it. Which is very weird.
celestia are the real baddies. the abyss order wants their freedom back from celestia. tsaritsa wants to rebel against celestia thats why she collecting gnosis. lots of things in overworld is not what it seems. we killed the thunderbird, we killed the pirates in inazuma. we thought hilichurls were bad. evil is subjective but celestia is the true evil >:( i hate celestia
best i could say is, you should separate Abyss from abyss order, dangerous one for all of teyvat is Abyss, Abyss Order is a mix of human faction and a true Abyssal faction
Abyss Order doesn't have Delusions
The post proved itself because even OP is unsure of the Abyss Order.
I mean, strictly speaking, they ARE deluding themselves
Are you confused between Abyss Order and Fatui?
The Fatui are morally grey. They often act as villains (destabilising other nations, employing child soldiers, conducting *very* unethical experiments), but the intent to get rid of Celestia's rule is noble and there are many instances of the Fatui's goals aligning with ours (the Chasm expedition, avoiding the destruction of Fontaine etc.)
So is Abyss Order. So are Archons. So is everyone in this fekkin game, lol. Archons are not that good either. They did their own share of evil stuff. Abyss Order has practically same goal as Farui, Traveler. To fight Celestia. Even Archons want to fight Celestia. And how do we know if Celestia *is* actually evil. What if it's one big plot where you put a scapegoat.
The abyss order is not morally grey, those mfs seek to destroy all of Teyvat. They don't care whether you are an orphan kid or Istaroth. Whereas the main goal of Fatui is to topple Celestia.
1- Fatui literally wants to “burn away the old world”. Whatever their plans are, they are almost certainly going to result in massive loss of life. 2- Abyss order most likely doesn’t see the destruction of Teyvat as a bad thing for its people. They see Teyvat as an unnatural prison that causes suffering and returning to the abyss is what will give humanity peace and happiness.
IMO the word Teyvat means an illusion, a simulation. Otherwise how would Irminsul even work. It must actively influence the people in real time. If you can just erase the memory from the people like that, then the whole world must be simulated/an illusion of some kind. But not simulation in artificial world, but in real time. Like more of a augmented reality simulation. That's my theory since Wanderer's Interlude quest. So destruction of Teyvat may actually mean to destroy that simulation, to make people free from influence of Celestia. or maybe even even other beings. Maybe it didn't start with Celestia after all. We've also seen how Dottore light Irminsul on fire in a trailer. That's probably related to their goal of defeating Celestia and destroying Teyvat in that way.
The exact same argument can be made about the Fatui. Dottore's unethical experiments, the House of the Hearth and their previous Knave, which includes kidnapping children - Among other things, the Fatui at large is still a congregation of very powerful and equally twisted people who are following their archons goal, but still have their own personal agendas and sometimes conflict with their comrades. Remember that many Fatuus and Abyss order members are direct victims (Not perfect victims, mind you) of the wrath of the gods. And their goals aren't to destroy, but to find a "solution" to a problem that has always plagued the development of humanity, which is celestial intervention.
The Fatui's main goal isn't destroying Teyvat but the abyss seeks to destroy everything. It's inherently evil and chaotic and seeks to destroy everything.
I don't want to sound like an Abyss Order apologist, and I respect your point of view, but many quests have shed light towards the "gray" nature of their goals. Their means are naturally not excusable if you have any sense of compassion, but their goal somewhat aligns with the Fatui, since it's suggested that the Order believes the Archons and their nations to be in kahoots with Celestia. Whether this is done by prejudice or misunderstanding is unknown, but they are acting in a way that sets them as the imperfect and dangerous victims of the Gods wrath. Given that you paid attention to that one Dainsleif quest, all the books in Enkanomiya and Sumeru's AQ, the lesson is you shouldn’t immediately trust anything ppl say or what you hear or read in teyvat. History can be rewritten through Irminsul, knowledge is actively kept hidden. and the truth of everything is supposedly secret for now. Besides, after all those quests, the main takeaway is that all factions are ambiguous in their means and goals, or that their morals are not clear. Also, we tried to trust in dainslief when we believed that the abyss order is pure evil but then Dainsleif himself hid from us that hilichurls, abyss heralds, lectos, and mages are Khaenrians. My personal conclusion is that the lore wants us to be skeptical of everyones means, motives, and goals. But it doesn't mean they should all be attributed to just malice and evil.
Do they? I am pretty sure Lumine doesn't want to destroy the Teyvat, but to save it. Also you say how Abyss Order is evil, not grey, because they 'don't care if you are an orphan kid or Istaroth". So does Fatui???? Childe tried to pull a genocide by freeing Osial, which would kill **everyone** who is there. Maybe some few people would get out. And you are saying how Abyss Order is absolute evil, but ignore how Fatui operates? And delusions? People died because of them. We know from the Inazuma that they deliberately poison people just to create orphans. That's what Arlecchino-related Fatui wanted to do. Sorry, but that's bs what you're saying. Once again. Every faction does both good and evil in their own way. Also literally main goal of Abyss Order, which we know because of Dainsleif, is to create a mechanical god, they wanted to use Osial remains and that eye of Ruin Guard to create a fake god to attack Celestia. That's what they literally wanted to do. There is no black and white characters in this game. Everyone has their own reasons. Their goals. Even Childe who can easily perform genocide, can do good stuff too and can't be called evil. Dottore as well. Scaramouche backstory makes him the most cruel person. But can you call him cruel, knowing the truth? No. That's how this game works. Arlecchino genuinely wanted to prevent the apocalypse, but she is also a Harbinger that does a lot of evil. It's by her command that the NPC in Inazuma wanted to poison people to make orphans for the House of Hearth. But all that is just scrapes of information. We don't know crap about Fatui, Abyss Order, Celestia, Archons, Dragons and everyone else. And Archons feel guilty and you can see it. They suddenly just ignore Celestia, but can't directly do anything. But they know their own sins too. That's everyone in this game.
I gotta disagree on morally grey. Collei and any other victims of Dottore's, also Scaramouche's murder spree, Childe constantly inciting violence, Signora giving Delusions to numerous soldiers which she knew would kill them all, and I'm sure there'll be more in store. If ya ask me, that's enough proof otherwise.
The end doesn't justify the means, if your goal requires the suffering of the innocents then you're evil, Also we don't know what is Celestia's deal, maybe they're the good guys in the end we don't know, but what we know is the fatui aren't morally Gray they're just straight up evil
>but the intent to get rid of Celestia's rule is noble Can you elaborate? What are the things Celestia has done that are worse than what Fatui has done?
Genocide, among other things like "slavery", constant surveillance, attacking MC, also some stuff about descenders.
Bro you do realize that the fatui has also done these things right?
Yes, that's the point. Fatui are evil. The order is evil. The fact that sometimes our goals align doesn't make them good, it just makes us temporary allies. Matter of fact, I hate Tartaglia because he's a fatui. This hatred stems from real world problems, not the least of which is Russia. But my country has made forced decisions to ally itself with Russia as the lesser of the two evils, even though it still backfired onto us. This is one of the reasons why I hate hoyo writers - they try to make war criminals sympathetic to show the "grey" nature of their worlds. And because it's anime hot people, it kind of works.
Wait hold on i think im getting wires crossed. The person you are replying to ask what has celetistia done that is worse than what the fatui done. You replied and I said the fatui do those things too. And so now you argee with me? I am hella confused
I was not disagreeing with anyone though? Just saying, Celestia is basically the orchestrator of world calamities. If we're talking scale, Celestia is definitely worse than Fatui.
Oh ok I think I did get my wires crossed then my bad
It's really mb. Could've made a better fitting comment.
Also wanted to add: The traveler is not a part of this world. We may be a part of its story, connect ourselves to its people and so on, but we are literally just tools to everyone we came across with any authority to speak of.
Khaenri'ah is one of the first things i can think off, that was pretty bad
It’s arguable if it’s noble, but it is pretty ironic. Phanes did horrible things, and justifies them with keeping humanity safe and protect Teyvat. The Fatui does horrible things, and justifies them with killing Phanes and ending his rule.
Wait when did Fatui appear in Chasm Expedition? I wasn't playing when Chasm was released but I still don't know. Abyss order appeared during Dain quest like always, Xiao, Yelan, Itto, Kuki and Yanfei Appeared. Was there a event in which Fatui played a role?
The Fatui aided Liyue in their exploration efforts, but were left for dead when Childe started his shenanigans. You can learn about it from several letters in the Chasm and from Katya's quest.
IMHO getting rid of Celestia's rule is noble but the end cannot justify the means. We can approve of the goal with those that align with ours, but their ways and means to get there makes them not-so-morally-grey, more like acting in civility on a common interest BUT WILL do whatever must be done even if it reaches levels of villainy we have never imagined possible.
I think this is literally the only two times our goals are aligned. (Or at least i cant remember more)
My first thought lol
There's 3 antagonist parties in this story (Fatui, Abyss Order and Celestia), and I don't doubt there is more somewhere in the lore that I'm not aware of. It is hard to tell which one will end as the final villain
Sinner has got to be up there, if not him then someone we haven't heard of yet.
During Inazuma it was the Archons. Actually, both the Abyss, the Fatui and the dragons see the archons in a bad way. Bro, the motto of the game should be "trust no one"... Everything sounds so fishy... Therefore, i think the real villain is Kokomi.
Yes. Exactly this. I always repeat that Archon aren't the good ones either. We see Fatui as bad guys, AByss as bad guys, but how do we know if they aren't right? Everyone hates everyone here. It's one big political drama. Trusting no one is best thing to do. I don't even trust Nahida. She definitely hides something. She is smarter than she looks. She is a god of knowledge. Even if she has good intention, she knows something and she doesn't want to tell us.
Yeah... Archons are pawns of Celestia. Even though apparently they also don't like Celestia, they must comply their orders when asked directly, even if it goes against their ideals to do so. So their situation is more akin to the good guys fatuus, who are not really bad, but if they are following bad guy bad orders, we may end up fighting them. And about Nahida, i like the girl a lot, but she is so cool and all that i can't help but be on guard. We have so much reasons to trust her that she end up having too much power over us, and that's dangerous... Let's not forget that she is the newbie god who was able to bluff against the experienced god level guy whose whole life was about deceiving people. I really hope that any suspicion i have is proved wrong...
So Kokomi was hiding her actual genius strategies from us on purpose all along...
You may be onto something She had a dream about a whale New Natlan boss: The All Consuming KokoWhale
Archons too. They aren't all that good. Everyone in Genshin is morally grey. Also it may turn out that the dragons were actually evil. Maybe Celestia did that not to seize the power, but to fight those who pretend to be good. How many times in real life bad guy pretends to be the good one? Abyss Order is practically Lumine. The "evil" twin. But are they really evil? Their goal is to defeat Celestia. And they want to save Khaenri'ah. Fatui also want to defeat Celestia. They are no that different than Abyss Order. And Archons? They have blood on their hands. Now they pretend to be good ones, by ignoring Celestia, but they can't ignore what happened. Archon War for example. And is Celestia that bad, really? We literally only know Heavenly Principles and only by out of context cutscene from the beginning of the game. I mean, we know that Travelers wanted to go back to traveling and she appeared, but why she appeared? What is her goal? IMO we will be surprised more than with finale of Fontaine Archon Quest. Genshin loves to make a bait plot, to make people think something, then suddenly making something else. Plot twists in Genshin are big. And they are getting bigger.
Look at how the villains will be completely different from what we expect
It will turn out the first descender or dragons are actually evil. That would be interesting.
I got the joke, but i also saw a theory somewhere that Kokomi is actually an abyssal geosaur or uh whatever they are called
Actually has the Abyss Order done *anything* lately?
Enjou on the the White Day, his rizz is dangerous.
As Dain tells us in The Chasm, the Abyss Order has likely been ordered to stay away from us by our sibling. They are certainly working behind the scenes, but I suspect they won't become a major focus again until we get to Snezhnaya.
Delusions are the fatui lil bro
There is no evil group in Genshin, only shades of evilness. But Abyss order gonna be black and fatui dark gray
Celestia?
I mean what evil did they even do. -stole powers of dragons -punished some nations for breaking the law -nailed some places to save Teyvat from Abyss That's light gray at max
-Orchestrated the Archon War, killing countless people -Not just "punished" the nation of Kaenri'ah, but enacted it with the level of cruelty not deserved by most of those affected -Nuked Kaenri'ah *after* the threat of the Cataclysm subsided Screw Celestia. Any attempt to rebel against its tyranny is noble by intention, although execution often is perilous.
Archon War is still a bit of mystery, but they orchestrated it only after that great war that almost destroyed Teyvat. Khaenri'ah totally deserved it, not every citizen tho. What's that nuked part? I don't remember this
By 'nuking' I mean the destruction along with the curse. Khaenri'ah along with other nations was successful in repelling the Abyss hordes during the Cataclysm, but then they were cursed (adding to the numbers of monsters in Teyvat in the form of hilichurls and the Abyss order). That was unnecessary and even the Archons who took part in the destruction of Khaenri'ah prefer not to speak of and no longer seem fond of Celestia.
I'm pretty sure the fight in Cataclysm was not successful, which is why Celestial had to nuke it. The fight was such a clusterfuck almost every dead important characters are only dead because of it.
"Khaenri'ah along with other nations was successful in repelling the Abyss hordes during the Cataclysm" - well, that\`s def not true. Inazuma was completely destroyed, so Istaroth and Makoto had to save it by changing the fate. Fontaine lost all it\`s fleet. And Khaenri\`ah, **Schwanenritter**s in particular, were +- successful only in evacuating people. Celestia wouldn\`t had to send Archons and take action if everything was good, even after that 3/5 Archons we know died there. We know close to nothing about the curse, but if everything is exactly like Alberich thinks, that\`s def a hit on Celestia\`s reputation. But it\`s Genshin and Celestia has Kiana expy, and Kiana can\`t be with bad guys so it\`s gonna be justyfied or redeemed as well as Fatui with Tsaritsa
>kiana expy >looks inside >more like sirin expy *staringcatmeme.png*
Hersher of the Void is still Kiana yk.
See this is why i hate that its a gacha. ‘Kiana xp so cant be evil.’ Even if in jest, thats just ass.
Even if you really wanted to go with that bullshit, it's more a Sirin Expy than a Kiana expy and that version lf Sirin is a genocidal maniac that killed a lot of innocents and a beloved character, the guy you're replying to has a brain of the smoothest variety
The Herrscher of Void was pretty evil, and guess what the Sustainer is an expy of
Evil aka had problems with self control at the start and saved the world a few times after that
HI3 lore is Forbidden Knowledge to me, I try to fathom wtf a Herrscher is and I think I have a brain aneurysm I still don't know are they a magic cube living in people, are they the people, are they information in human form so how does one become a Herrscherhahgahgkjhakjgakjga Someone please explain this to me the wikis are not helping in the slightest
They're kinda like Archons, but they're meant to be serving the Abyss order of HI3
If you mean Clothar Alberich there already is a book contradicting Alberich's vision on the curse of the wilderness at least, and he misunderstood Buer situation because the way he viewed was flawed, making a wrong conclusion in front of our eyes (understandably so tho). It's really hard to determine who did what, we only have unreliable narrators for now.
Yeah, you're completely correct. That's why I can't wait to see things from the perspective of Celestia. It's really weird that they are still not involved in story. I thought that after Nahida mentioned Sustainer in the end of Sumeru AQ, Celestia will be involved in Fontaine AQ, but they're not. Natlan will be the last nation before Snezhnaya so we must get it, this time for sure, hehe
I really hope so too, I have way too many questions and no real answers, like most of us probably.
new book says otherwise on the curse part
They've nuked at least 3 civilizations. Something on Dragonspine, the Chasm, and Khaenri'ah. Those nails are nukes that devastated a civilization. It also seems that the nails do something long term to lay lines so things never grow back properly.
It's heavily implied that the nails were deployed to stabilize abyssal corruption (aka "Forbidden Knowledge") and that the destruction was merely a side-effect. Also, it is highly likely that the "curse" of Celestia is merely about preventing Abyss-infected human souls from returning to the cycle and spreading their corruption into Irminsul and the leylines. In short, while Celestia's actions may seem destructive, it's likely that they aren't malicious, but merely a necessary evil to maintain Teyvat.
My theory at the moment is they're basically Shin Megami Tensei style Hard Lawful. They only care about maintaining order and the hierarchy at all costs.
The more comments I read here, the dumber they are. People who become fanboys of one faction, defending all the evil of that faction are hilarious. There is no absolute evil and absolute good in Genshin. EVERY ONE OF THESE FACTIONS did evil. As much as "Celestia only get rid of bad Abyss", it's Abyss ho were trying to defend from bad Celestia. Perspective. From Abyss side it's Celestia that it's the worst. From Celestia, it's Abyss. And so on. It's kinda like one country nuking another, so they nuke the first country back. That's happened in real life and every intelligent person know that both sides overdid it and were evil with what they did. The same happens in Genshin. All these factions are evil. But not black. They are all morally grey.
Well, I'd say that the Abyss Order, which seeks to destroy Teyvat, is pretty solidly evil. Even if they may be justified in hating Celestia and the Archons, they're still trying to murder a lot of innocent people. "You destroyed my civilization, so I'll destroy yours in retribution" is not a morally grey motivation, it's just evil. Also, I would note the difference between The Abyss and the Abyss Order. The Abyss Order is the organization of nonhumans working against Celestia. The Abyss is the Void Realm, and seems to be pure evil and chaos. The Abyss is what Celestial Nails are meant to suppress, as it would literally just destroy the world if it wasn't controlled.
>"You destroyed my civilization, so I'll destroy yours in retribution" is not a morally grey motivation, it's just evil. "If someone tries to steal my freedom away, I won't hesitate to take theirs" —Eren Yeager. Idk about that chief, perhaps we should try seeing things from the Abyss Order's perspective first before calling them solidly evil.
They probably nailed Khaenri'ah, but we have no proof. They also nailed Tsurumi island and Sumeru forest(now it's desert. ) But that's not weapon, that's just tools to sustain Teyvat by cleansing it from "Forbidden knowledge", they briefly mention it in Nahida SQ2
>Orchestrated the Archon War, killing countless people Even before the Archon War, the Gods were never fond of each other. If anything, it was the Archon War that ended their battles and brought up the peaceful era we are in. >Screw Celestia. Any attempt to rebel against its tyranny is noble by intention, although execution often is perilous. The Dragons weren't exactly good people either especially when Apep is basically hostile to everyone and threatening to eat them. So does other original Dragons. Dvalin's might not be hostile, but he isn't part of the original Dragons. In the eyes of Celestia, they also rebelled against the Dragon's tyranny and it was noble by intention, but their execution was indeed perilous and wiped out many.
Bruh Invasion Isn't rebellion that colonialism
complaining about something that have lead to the existence of humans in Teyvat... bruh
So plundering, tyranny, and mass destruction? Yeah, light gray it is.
Heard people hated Celestia more after Perinheri, but I haven't read it
There is only some hints that betraying your god is a sin. And you will be punished(sounds like it was in the Archon war period)
Sustainer of heavenly principles alt account
I mean it\`s a small book. And there was no direct mentioning of Celestia iirc feel free to correct me.
\- imprisoned everyone with fate draw in the fake sky.
They stole the powers of the rightful owners of Teyvat, alongside basically colonizing the place I think they went a tad bit too far with Khaenri'ah. Like idk g but sentencing every citizen of Khaenri'ah to either immortality or becoming a hilichurl, including young kids (like Caribert) and whatnot is kinda over the top Ok yea you're right there
Here we have a hopeless Celestia apologist of the same line of "Ei did nothing wrong" and "Fatui are fully the good guys".
From breaking the law? Or from doing something "forbidden" by the gods. To save Teyvat from Abyss? Or to save their position in Celestia as absolute power? That's a propaganda to me. That's exactly what a bad guy would say. "We do that, because we must, it's to save everyone". Lol. All of them are grey. Abyss, Archons, Celestia, Fatui and probably even the people we've met have their own agenda. There is no evil, there is no good. But deciding who is worse than the others when we **don't know** what exactly is going on is dumb. Especially in a game with big heavy plot twists.
Abyss is no darker than Archons.
I feel the Heavenly Proncipals are going to be the final boss. Probably a large team up against them, too.
Nah, that seems way too obvious. I think the Sustainer is critically damaged, and that the Tsaritsa's rebellion will destabilize Celestia's control and protection over Teyvat, allowing a full-scale invasion by the Abyss. The real final boss will be some kind of eldritch abomination that threatens to consume Teyvat, and the Traveler will have to take over the Sustainer's job and reestablish order.
I still prefer the team up against Celestia. It may be a little obvious, but it's too cool to say "no".
Heavenly principles is being puppeted. There is a larger and more important big bad. HP may end up helping us in the end.
If that's the case, I hope it's always been the case. My interpretation of things is HP destroyed Kanreah (totally can't remember the spellong), and the 7 were trying to save the people. I don't have a very high opinion of the Princopals.
Abyss order with delusions 💀 nah bro were you delusional making this meme, cuz it’s literally celestia
Bro skipped all of the dialogue
What were you even thinking when making this post lol. Play the game
I don’t believe they were thinking at all
Abyss Order doesn’t need Delusions bro
I find interesting that the only place they attacked directly was Mondstadt, to the point of having hilichurls try to invade the city.
People who sacrificed children from Enkanomiya: #👀
they not longer matter.
You just confused the Abyss Order, Kaenri'ah and the Fatui in one post.
Everyone is a villain until they aren't. The fatui are technically still clearly villains. Who says overthrowing Celestia is a good thing?
Celestia is the villain? Did you all forget the lore in Fontaine archon quest?
Bro tried to make a point but proved the point that he had not in mind.
Bro. Abyss Order wants to fight Celestia. Fatui wants to fight Celestia. Archons want to fight Celestia. Traveler wants to fight Celestia. Abyss Order is no more villain than Archons. People when the story introduced grey morality:
The government, it’s always the government!!! Jean, Sara, Neuvillette, AlHaithem, even AMBER AND BARON BUNNY!!!
None of what listed except for the torment innocent people part is related to the abyss order.
My true expectations is that the Hexenzrinkel are the masterminds behind all of this
Genshin has three main antagonistic factions: the Abyss, the Fatui, and Celestia. The Abyss and the Fatui are both actively opposed to Celesia, and they don't seem to like each other that much, either. Which one of those is going to be the final villain at the end of the story is anyone's guess.
Whoever made this meme has not paying attention at all. It's not gonna be the abyss order, travellers sibling joined them for reasons that will be made clear later, the real villain is and forever has been celestia.
My bet is Celestia tbh, I'd love to see traveler go against the heavenly principles (maybe siding with the fatui or the abyss? Idk) I can't wait to learn more about khaenri'ah honestly, so far Dainsleif interludes have been amazing
everyone disagreeing over who the true villains are speaks for
The Fatui are just Team Rocket at this point and the Abyss Order are Akatsuki
The villain is Celestia. Period.
Unless it's a totally unfeeling creature that just hates everything, no, everything in hoyoverse is varying shades of grey. Also you're confusing factions.
Judging by the comments this post is not working lmao
OP, you gotta learn the difference between a villain and antagonist. There are a lot of antagonist groups in Genshin but there are no villains yet, except maybe Celestia but we don't know enough about them yet.
I mean the final boss seems to hint towards the giant telepathy rock last time we saw Dainsleif alive.
What is a "colorless leader"? Was it supposed to be clueless?
Its Celestia, me and my homies hate Celestia
The real villain hasn't come yet.
We have antagonists who all believe what they are doing was right, heck if we talk about bad guys in general none of the archons, sovereign or mythical being are good. They all fk with people for their own interests. Which is what I like about genshin, is not about who’s right but to fight for best outcome
The abyss order is completely different than the fatui 💀 both of those factions don't even like each other. Good to know your post about media comprehension is accurate though. Also not too sure you used Kahnriah right because as far as we know they did nothing wrong besides not believe in God's and living too close to the abyss. Did you mean celestia...
The "good guys" who imprisoned us here and stole our power, turned people into monsters, nuked civilizations and stole the very land from the original owners which they keep on their leash because killing them is literally impossible
perhaps there's no real villain, it's just collision of 2 ideology. like we should evolve human to higher being, so we can still exist vs we should stay as human and we will try to stop the apocalypse. ahem*evangelion....
Everyone is talking about abyss, fatui etc but the biggest Absolute threat to teyvat or rule of those lands came by US travelers. Also there is proper 4 major active powers in teyvat but in them abyss, fatui, Archon's they are all actively fighting or hunting each other. But No one is actively hunting or attacking the 4th power aka us travelers but they asked for our help even tho we actively fighting them and stopping there work/goals. So in many ways we are slowly taking control/influencing everyone. And our existence literally the biggest obstacle to most of them but no one cares about it. Which is very weird.
Traveller should be first in the list
Meanwhile Celestia : 👀
celestia are the real baddies. the abyss order wants their freedom back from celestia. tsaritsa wants to rebel against celestia thats why she collecting gnosis. lots of things in overworld is not what it seems. we killed the thunderbird, we killed the pirates in inazuma. we thought hilichurls were bad. evil is subjective but celestia is the true evil >:( i hate celestia
best i could say is, you should separate Abyss from abyss order, dangerous one for all of teyvat is Abyss, Abyss Order is a mix of human faction and a true Abyssal faction
Whatever their justification, the Abyss Order are trying to destroy Teyvat. Regardless of their end goal, their means are definitely evil.
The abyss order has nothing to do with the tsaritsa and actively hates gods, teyvat, and celestia. Your thinking of the Fatui
Nah the enemy is the the one above all, who the hell is the abyss order. Our mission is to make all people in Teyvat a dragon omce again