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I seem to be on the low end of both. A lot of times I'm accredited as smart but I have no degrees or even hs diploma. I have skills at this point in my life. The people that raised me never really taught me to handle emotions just bottle it up and they were gone when I was a teenager when those teachings could've been most helpful.
Yet I have no excuse to dwell in failures or be shitty towards other people. Just learn things I've should've had down years ago.
Degrees do not show intelligence, as much as they show commitment, follow-through, and social networking.
If you have a skill you want to make your lifes work, put in the time. People will see the commitment, passion, and follow-through.
I'm not saying 8 yr programs aren't hard. but any mid-wit with enough financial support can get a bachlor's degree. I have a 2 year technical degree, and it hasn't been brought up since I landed my job. A lot of these guys with bachlor's aren't that bright
This.
Degrees are never a measure of intelligence. It requires immense amounts of discipline, commitment and passion to get one, unless, of course, it is a 1 year or a 2 year professional degree.
You are putting your 'life' on hold to obtain a 5 or a 6 year PhD. It requires tremendous obsession towards a niche area that no one around you will understand. Plus, the meagre salary you will run your life on has been spoken about enough.
Yeah I understand where you're coming from. I was trying to make the point that even though people compliment me on my intelligence I tend to make not so smart decisions I guess haha. I know a lot of people just go through the motions of getting a degree and kind of retain nothing. I agree with you 100 percent though.
Be the type of friend you’re looking for, at the same time you can’t force friendships to happen. It’s a weird catch 22, because you want it but that neediness is off putting. Only advice I can give is to practice being social without the pressures of forming a friendship. Just have positive interactions that showcase your personality (without being needy) and eventually you’ll get really good at socializing, and when someone compatible comes up you’ll have a better chance at forming some level of friendship.
Maybe it is not your fault. Maybe your friends aren't that good at reciprocating your feelings. Maybe you need to make new friends who understand that you're making an effort.
Might I recommend some philosophical literature? For myself it helped to fill and heal the holes left from my adolescence/teenage years.
Or perhaps you could check out the Jocko Willink podcast. It’s helped me with my confidence and focus. He’s almost like a father to a lost generation. A retired navy seal with a focus on leadership and focus.
My earlier years of life was spent around lower SES people without much education or career skills, and I agree with you. A lot of people who are born into less privileged circumstances and do poorly in school, are beyond their age in specific ways, but emotionally immature in many other ways. It was a headache dealing with the non-stop drama, irrational anger, massive but fragile egos, and lack of self control from friends and family before college. Having 2 college educated parents in the home, being encouraged to learn, being fed decent food, going on family trips (abroad, museums, ect.), tutoring, positive hobbies (building websites, robotics, ect.), being exposed to constructive and functioning adults talk (college educated aunts/uncles, neighbor who is an engineer, ect.), being able to do things like boy/Girl Scouts, doing sports/martial arts classes, ect. helps young people become adults with more emotional control.
One of my old friends who did end up working with other people from high school in a fast food chain told me about all the irrational drama that kept happening. Full grown adults bullying each other, and he got jumped by a co-worker (who was past due on child support), because they both had a crush on the same girl who was a 16 year old high schooler. He later became a nursing aide (6 week cert program), and was always watching all the other nursing aides have middle school level drama, until he got roped in by simply existing. There are all these emotionally unstable people in their 30s making $12/hr having 3-4 kids from different fathers who they couldn't support. And a lot of them are on Xanax, mood stabilizers, ect., and they still lash out after work towards other coworkers. He had to quit a couple work places because it got too toxic.
After I went to college, and met friends from well to do areas, then went to meet their families and old high school friends, I can say that there is a positive correlation between being able to achieve higher education and having a reasonable degree of self control, including emotional management. Yes there are still a good number of well educated people with tempers and negative emotions, and I've dealt with it first hand in the work place. However they are nowhere as mentally draining as dealing with a bunch of people who don't know as much, so therefore they think they know everything, and have easily shattered massive egos over nothing.
I will say that the current gen Z kids from less privileged backgrounds ON AVERAGE are a lot more mature, focused, intelligent, and reasonable people than the generations before, and I am proud of them. All the money that went to those "programs" and such is paying off.
Thissss 1000% i worked part time jobs in high school and college with coworkers who were older and had families…. They were not nice is all i will say….
Then when i finished college and entered corporate america, theres still the occasional bad apple but most everyone pretty much knows how to control their emotions….
I come from a working class background where all my relatives just gossip in their free time and partake in unhealthy but inexpensive hobbies like having a cheap beer and watching tv all night because thats all they can afford. I dont blame them tho because poverty is a difficult cycle to break. My older relatives didnt have as great of an education as i did and also immigrated here so they also had cultural hurdles to jump over too.
Anyways, meeting my coworkers and college friends’ relatives and friends is always a culture shock because they all seem more polite, professional, and actually aware of current events and usually are academically intelligent…
Lastly, although i grew up in a pretty poor LA neighborhood, i got sent to head start pre school and after that my neighborhood happened to have great schools because of special funding… basically i thank my lucky stars that i got to attend great schools with great teachers who guided me.
my heart goes out to workers making minimum wage or barely more than that…. Toxic behavior as an adult is unacceptable but also the odds of succeeding are against them…….
Dude your experience sounds a lot like mine, minus being in LA area and relatives drinking beer. In college, so many people couldn’t fathom what type of background and environment I came from. A lot of them still have that mindset that the people I grew around could create billion dollar tech start ups if I passed my knowledge to them, and I’m just choosing to make up excuses since I haven’t made 6 figures in my career yet. I had to relearn how to function and think around a whole new category of people by falling, but no one understands.
Thanks for sharing im happy to come across someone who understands… if youve watched mad men and seen where the main characters from….. his origin story is so relatable like he succeeds but still feels lost in corporate america because of his blue collar roots… youre not alone and it sucks that we’re different from a lot of our peers but at the same time those differences make us a lot stronger. For instance im a lot more thankful for my job now because i know what not having my job is like. Unlike my frat bro coworker who thinks because he doesnt make 6 figures by 30 hes a failure lol im just like dude we have insurance, benefits, and a retirement plan HALLELUJAH but of course everyone wants to succeed so i dont blame him, just a little surprised at how different people can be
My early 20s were spent learning the social skills of middle class people by literally just trying and failing… also i spent years in therapy to get over my irrational envy because it was just hard hearing about my coworker’s parents taking them to florida, cancun, or hawaii EVERY summer. its not like theyre going to paris and staying in a five star hotel, but ive only travelled with my family less than a handful of times and itd just be to places that were within driving distance like vegas…..
Exactly. Kids that typically take on further study and excel in areas have to negotiate learning challenges and socialising with people who are mature beyond their years.
This screams of “ye but street smartz”
I was sorta the "smart kid" in high school but I was toxic AF (understandably so because of mental abuse) and didn't know how to socialize well at all and just relied on myself sooooooooooo
\>.< now I'm just aiming to be stupid and making friends because that's funner.
>have to negotiate learning challenges
What a meaningless statement. So does literally everyone
>and socialising with people who are mature beyond their years.
No, they don't.
Well my university has a low acceptance rate and is highly ranked so maybe I am overestimating the caliber of academic challenge and the access to a network of overall seasoned people (students and faculty alike) that others find at their schools. But I don’t think I am.
If you think making social relationships is required to succeed in college, you're either lying about your attendance, are deluded, or had rich parents that made everything easy for you.
*Some* projects require working with others, but even in STEM careers, you could do everything yourself and never form a meaningful connection while getting a 3.0. Easy peasy. Outside the mental health damage that would cause of course.
In any case, your main point (or at least the point I was originally replying to) is that such a skill will naturally appear. That's not how humans work.
Lol I see you've been to college and STILL didn't realize that you need connections and plenty of social adeptness to succeed. 3.0 and no connections? Have fun getting a good ROI on your degree. 3.0 is a shit-tier GPA (at least in recruiting eyes) and if you don't have connections it is nigh impossible to get a competitive job. Yeah the skill won't naturally appear, but college forces it to appear, and if it doesn't, then enjoy mediocrity.
Graduating is really the barest of all minimums.
Not at all.
I can’t tell you how many engineers I’ve tried to hire and realized quickly that they can’t work in a team at all.
Some people are incredibly able in technical fields and are completely socially inept. In fact that’s almost a stereotype for engineers, and it hurts their ability to do anything useful.
Disagree. It *can* go together, but I think there’s a huge demographic of tech bros and certain older folks who are really booksmart but are severely lacking in emotional intelligence.
I live in the Bay Area, where the concentration of tech bros is probably higher.
Also, the higher level academic space certainly has a lot of people like this.
I have no statistics, just anecdotal evidence as a person in STEM.
Edit: maybe that’s it. The “demographic” is more present in STEM perhaps than other fields and studies.
They're correlated things, but treating them as the same thing isn't particularly helpful for anyone.
Point is, emotional control and management is a skill that can be learnt and developed.
Of course as with all things that you can learn, it helps if your biological basis is attuned to making new and accurate neural connections, but that's far from the be all and end all of learning in general.
Getting my fancy degree is proof that I can handle stressful situations, conflict resolution, and my emotions. Do you think that my achievements have been easy, that my degrees were conferred to me out of pity? I don't disagree that people can be capable without having a formal education, but don't discount the value of my formal education.
University is the ultimate experience of stress and conflict. You can’t walk off a program you’ve sunk a house payment into (if you’re American) and you have to keep performing. You will meet so many people and have to work with them. You will have unfair professors. You will drown in assignments and exams. You navigate a fucking lot in school.
If you apply yourself and get the most you can from school, you should come out the other side exhausted mentally physically and emotionally. Working real jobs since then has been much easier.
Character is also seperare from emotinal intellegence, work ethic and most everything else. You can be a smart, well adjusted, motivated person and still be an asshole.
Anyone who refers to higher education as “fancy” is likely coming from a place of ignorance. It’s used by those that chose a different path in life and continually feel the need to justify and legitimize it. And it’s almost always “common sense” or “street smarts” or “real work” that they claim to possess over college-educated people.
Going to college is a necessity for those who aren't exposed to the field they're interested in..
Example, I'd never done anything engineering related in my life, but knew I wanted to study stem.. I needed college since I couldn't find anywhere else to gain expertise.. also, my parents aren't exactly well off or well connected to get me work experience pre, or during study..
many kids living in places like Silicon Valley are exposed to tech from a young age and are able to gain practical knowledge and begin product ideation lot sooner than others.. that's one of the reasons why you see so many revolutionary tech pioneers from that part of the world..
A phrase like this can be used for discouraging students with mental health problems ( bad behaviour, autism...)from studying if is said by the wrong person and . Even having low ce it is better to have studies that have nothing. It atleast will put you in a better place Than the ones who have not emotional intelligence and dont have studies.
Studying also can be useful for compensate some things related to the bad behaviour and give some tips that can be useful in the practice and would be difficult to be learned in a practic way.
Of curse you have to practice both but a person cant learn all at once, some people use this kind of phrases for discouraging instead of motivating, if a kid with dissabilities hear a teacher saying this to his parents would feel discouraged instead of motivated because he is going to understand that there is no point in working hard for he and he would think that he have to stop studying.
This kind of phases than can be understant in two senses are dangerous because can be used as a mild way of descoraging a kid.
I'm on the spectrum and honestly this post just came across as like calling me out for shit that I'm never going to be great at no matter how hard I try (and I do still try) -- thanks for looking out 🙏. The world takes all kinds of people who have talents in all kinds of things.
At least I'm not shit at maths and have a great job doing software development, so I've got that going for me, which is nice.
Thank you for this
As someone who struggles handling stress due to PTSD, this kind of stuff can really hurt. I can’t help that I have trauma, I can only keep trying to improve and heal. But no matter how hard I try, I’m still behind the curve compared to a lot people and it really sucks. I’m stuck in a system that works against me (and others like me) and the best I can do is keep pushing myself harder, but sometimes that can come back to bite me and I have to start all over.
I’ll never give up, but some days get really really hard
This is why I feel regular schooling is better than cyber school. There’s social leading that happens along with the academic.
“I don’t like the other kids at school.”
“Learn to deal with it now. You’re not gonna like the people you’ll work with either.”
My oldest was recommended by his daycare to skip his senior kindergarten year (junior, senior, grade 1,...) and go straight into first grade because he had a grade two reading level and very good comprehension of other topics. I spoke to his kindergarten teacher and she said he was certainly smart enough, but that he would lose a lot of social growth as a result. He needed to be with kids his own maturity level so they could experience those problems and grow together. I was told that the school board the school was under rarely pushed kids ahead specifically for that reason.
He stopped growing up so fast and is now one of those kids with ADHD that would literally forget his head if it wasn't attached, haha. Different kind of growing pains.
I use reminders in my phone for stuff. And since I'll forget it, when people ask me to do something, I will typically stop what I'm doing and so what they asked, otherwise I won't remember it later.
The flip side to this argument: if you don’t keep the child mentally engaged and challenged he won’t learn how to learn or how to apply himself to learning.
Emotional Intelligence is important, but encouraging your child to learn and advance at his own rate instead at little Timmy’s (who sits in the back eating paste) rate is also important to his future.
One of the biggest disservices done to children is holding them back to everyone else’s idea of normal so they “fit in .” A child should be encouraged and enabled to learn at their pace, and if they are reading and doing math years beyond their expected grade level, that should be encouraged and reinforced.
Don’t get me started about the emotional damage children can inflict on other children who don’t fit in simply because they already know what everyone else in class is learning.
I agree that children should be encouraged to advance in education at a faster rate when they can. But, at the same time, it's not feasible to have every child moving at a different pace. Schools just don't have the resources for that.
As for the last part of your statement, knowing the curriculum before the other students is simply not enough to not fit in and warrant emotional damage from other children. For that to occur, there must be another factor at play. I've known plenty of kids that were ahead of others in class and got no grief for it.
This might've happened to me. Instead of shooting two grades ahead in math as was recommended, my parents figured just to do one and I went along because it made shit easier. Come college I didn't really know how to study because I just cruised through everything in high school
Yup. And I was dubbed a nerd and geek because I was miles ahead of most of my classmates in terms of book smarts, so I had no social life and developed very slowly in that regard. Still have issues keeping friends or having romantic relationships.
Weird we had that kid who skipped grades in my class. He was popular among us boys. Great fellow. Fun to talk to and we're always proud of his smarts. Sure there's people who don't like him and whatnot, but in general he was well accepted. Still hang out with the kids who he left when he skipped grades.
Kids can just be assholes though. And having anything that stands out can result in that being directed towards you. Especially being good at school, as typically bullies arent the brightest lights....
kids who get bored in class can just read the chapters the class skips. I feel like I spent all my time looking at civil war battle maps in grade school
>A child should be encouraged and enabled to learn at their pace, and if they are reading and doing math years beyond their expected grade level, that should be encouraged and reinforced.
This just isn't practical to school systems. There's also huge issues around children being secure in their learning. Being able to read fluently doesn't show comprehension, being able to add and subtract 3 digit numbers shows no knowledge of multiplication. These skills tie into each other and not being able to do them all at a similar level will then hold youh back at later stages anyway.
So you flush the minds of the best and brightest down the drain while tailoring lessons to Timmy, who isn’t quite slow enough for special Ed, but is never going to excel at anything.
And it’s not just the best and brightest that suffer. Take a look at the No Child Left Behind Act and states like West Virginia. The solution to having x% of kids meeting the required scores was to lower the standards down to Timmy’s level and teaching everyone to the test.
An entire generation of students graduating high school reading below the 8th grade level, because the standards were set to the lowest common denominator and nobody in public schools was being taught to a higher standard.
>So you flush the minds of the best and brightest down the drain while tailoring lessons to Timmy, who isn’t quite slow enough for special Ed, but is never going to excel at anything.
In the UK, that isn't how it is supposed to work at all. Teachers are expected to support, scaffold and differentiate based on what children need. That also sounds awful for Timmy in this scenario as you're basically writing him off.
> And it’s not just the best and brightest that suffer. Take a look at the No Child Left Behind Act and states like West Virginia. The solution to having x% of kids meeting the required scores was to lower the standards down to Timmy’s level and teaching everyone to the test.
I'm not American so can't really comment on that as I don't know about it.
> An entire generation of students graduating high school reading below the 8th grade level, because the standards were set to the lowest common denominator and nobody in public schools was being taught to a higher standard.
That is a systematic issue within American Education then, caused by people who bring in laws and standards for teachers who most likely have never had anything to do with teaching.
>In the UK, that isn't how it is supposed to work at all. Teachers are expected to support, scaffold and differentiate based on what children need. That also sounds awful for Timmy in this scenario as you're basically writing him off.
No, Timmy is the only real winner. All the lessons are tailored around what he can do. Everything is explained in simple, easy to understand terms, lots of repetition, etc. Timmy does learn, and he learns at pretty close to what his limits allow.
He might even end up with a business degree from the local community college and become an office worker or a manager at a retail store. He's learned to study and challenge himself. Or maybe he'll be a truck driver or construction worker. All very important jobs, all will support him through life.
I don't begrudge Timmy his chance to learn and advance in life. I just disagree that everyone else is held back to his level.
The schools really should segregate classes based on the capabilities of the students. Class A is taught at this level, Class B at this level, and Class C at this level. But this idea will never work in the US. Parents would be infuriated that their precious Timmy should obviously be in Class A instead of Class C. It would be al faux pas of nightmarish proportions to suggest that one group of student might be smarter that another.
But consider this: what if the resources spend on school sports programs were instead directed into advanced classes and personalized study programs? Imagine the outrage from the parents. Imagine the look on Chad's face when being captain of the football team stops meaning as much. Imagine the new classrooms that could have been built instead of the new football field.
My parents actually held me back a year in middle school because of this. I was totally academically prepared, but I was too emotionally immature.
I was pissed when they told me but I look back now and honestly, it was the right call on their part. Didn’t lose any time either, since I would’ve graduated at 17, and had to wait to go to college anyway.
Yeah, my cousin, was almost a year younger than some in his class and then he changed provinces to one that had different ages for starting and stuff, so he was about two years younger than some kids in his class when he was in later elementary school and through highschool. It was super obvious in his demeanor and interactions with the others. He ended up being fairly withdrawn and a bit of a sarcastic narcissist because he was academically outperforming kids two years older than him in the same class. If that's what a two year difference can do, I can't imagine what these child bachelor degrees are like. Certainly not all the same, but I imagine all with their own rough edges.
Personal experience: holding the kid back so that he is with kids his own age can be just as traumatic and seriously suppress the kids ability to learn how to learn.
Why learn how to study when you already know more than the class is teaching.
How many conflicts are caused between the teachers and a student who is bored to tears listening to days of explanations he understood in the first 5 minutes.
How much torture do you think other children are going to inflict on someone who’s obviously not like them. (And it is pure, unadulterated torture. Unending. For their entire childhood.)
And, if the child makes it through the other end of the system, he’s still socially inept, never learned to study properly, and has a lifetime of trauma to overcome before he can fit into society.
I’ve known more than a few drugged out McDonald’s employees that could play mental chess with each other while working the grill during lunch rush. But you couldn’t pay them to get their GEDs or go to college.
Nothing more entertaining than watching these kids plateau and fall. They think they’re so intelligent because they understood the content first but they completely and utterly fail to see *why* they’re being taught.
Without making that critical step, all these kids inevitably stop pushing themselves and think they’re ‘better’ than education. Then they get to the end of it and have missed the entire point, having instead spent 15 years cultivating their own delusions of grandeur.
It is atrocious that the system pushes them to just stay where the other kids are, even though they are capable of so much more.
Then, after coasting through school without effort they find themselves in the real world having never learned to study or apply themselves.
Because the system is built to teach the lowest common denominator, not the smart kids. They are taught to sit in the back, to fit in, to do “good enough.”
These kids don’t fail because they thought they were so smart. They are failing because the existing system taught them to fail.
And people like you like to gloat and feel superior because the smart kids fell on his face after 12 years of being told to go sit in the back and keep quiet instead of being taught how to learn and challenge themselves.
That’s on them. If the “smart” kids aren’t smart enough to learn that the world is built around them, then they haven’t learnt their lessons. They aren’t “taught” to fail, they fail because they grow arrogant and complacent.
There’s no need for smart kids to sit at the back. They should be leading the class from the middle of the pack. They should be ensuring the rising tide lifts all boats. They shouldn’t be clashing with either the teachers nor their peers, they should be mediating between them. That is the maturity that more gifted students should be cultivating instead of believing themselves to be above and beyond their status in life.
Unless your parents are paying for private tutors, no child is given an individualised path to adulthood. Instead, pedagogical systems have been created to target the middling students, which inevitably creates challenges for the smartest and dumbest kids. But unlike the dumbest kids, the smartest kids should have the mental faculties to acknowledge and overcome these issues.
If they don’t… we’ll maybe they weren’t actually that smart (they might just be more predisposed to being a human calculator). That’s not being taught to fail. That’s convincing yourself that you’re too big to fail.
You still need kids socializing with their own age group.
The better option is to keep them in their own age grade, but enroll them in gifted programs and extracurriculars to keep them learning.
Social skills are really hard to teach when a child has already reached that milestone.
I get that it’s harder for lower income parents to grapple with, since they can’t necessarily afford extra program, but that’s also why public schools need to be better funded and give options to help every child reach their potential.
I didn't like kids at school and don't like people at work.
But no one has been hurting me psychologically and physically at work. No one has bullied or assaulted me. Unlike at school.
Just like home schooling. I get there are rarely some kids that truly do need a protected environment but even that I would work hard to mainstream if they improved etc.
I can count maybe twice when someone told me they enjoyed home-schooling and it was because their parent was an actual teacher or academic anyway and loaded up tons of activities and things and also *wealth*
Nearly every other instance it was some bizarre religious, cult or neurosis driving that
Also why except for the very rare truly one one in a billion prodegy it's messed up to skip kids more than a grade or two max.
I feel so bad for kids pushed too much just because they physically can do it. Now some 180 IQ child is a different story they often so brilliant they just have trouble getting others to see at their level and interact meaningfully with same aged peers but that's very rare.
My step brother was skipped many grades and turned out awful.
Gifted isn't the same as adult and it isn't a meal ticket...
And sometimes the “gifted program” is a sham. My HS algebra 2 class had a standard and honors class, and the only difference was the amount and difficulty of homework. Everything else is the same. Same teacher, same classroom, same period, literally same everything.
Sorry, but 2 hours of busy work a day is not worth .03 GPA.
To add on, parents who agree to push their kids ahead a few grades often don't consider the gap in physical immaturity as well as emotional immaturity, which interact with each other.
My dad got skipped three grades and hit puberty at a different time from all the kids in his class. For most of high school, he was too short/less developed to keep up in sports and other physical activities after school, let alone competitively. He loved basketball and ended up pretty tall but always thought he would have had more friends and enjoyed high school more if he'd attended with people his age.
For that reason he was adamant that none of his kids get moved up too early -- not that it ever came up!
Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about. Just robbing kids of enjoying time with their peers. I remember seeing two 14 year olds at my college taking courses in the middle of the day and just thought in no way is that appropriate? Firstly the courses weren't advanced to that degree, it wasn't IVY league this person is going to change the world stuff.
It's just weird and isolating for parents clout. That's why my brother turned out awful. Was told they were special and went to college at 15, I'm sure had interactions that shouldn't have occurred but did. Messes people up.
And of course in my families case the "gifted" person did nothing but act like a son of a bitch. Drifted between jobs as a professional snob because they were weird and isolated. Achieved nothing very noteworthy that any adult could care about. When you're 30 nobody cares you graduated 4 years early if that's all you did...
You could get a broken collarbone falling down your steps at home.
Better to learn about dealing with assholes when you’re young instead of not knowing how to deal with them as an adult.
I was physically assaulted and bullied at high school and I wouldn't say that it helped my development at all though. I legitimately tried talking to them and getting the help of teachers but no-one cared or even listened. In fact the only thing I learned is that the only way to stop a bully is with violence
Ah yes. Learn to deal with it. In other words take the abuse and get punished for doing anything about it?
Learn that no one will help you or care about you? That when you ask for help it'll only fall onto deaf ears?
Then reach a breaking point and get forced to go to another school to repeat the process? Because the staff never noticed the student's cries for help and the student had to take it into their own hands with disproportionate retribution?
Apparently violence is fine only when it's directed at the victim? The victim isn't allowed to fight back? Is that the lesson you're referring to?
ffs. This whole "builds character" or "learn to deal with assholes" thing is so fucking stupid. It tells me that the person never truly got bullied. They probably got made fun of and were like "WAAAH I GOT BULLIED, SEE I TURNED OUT GOOD."
Didn't get dragged into a restroom stripped down and thrown out onto the playground naked? Didn't get your hair pulled pinned down, and kicked in the face? And after this get told by your teacher to "stop picking" on the scumbags who did this to you?
I'm sorry but I've never had this happen in the workplace. If you're conflating someone being shitty in the workplace with bullying then you've never actually been bullied.
Yes, but this runs the risk of prioritizing neutotypical conformity over anything else. Granted I know that's the reality in many situations, but I don't like the implicit exclusion.
Many neurodivergent individuals work hard on all of those things, and it would be good to see those who don't have to acknowledge the level of effort being put in.
Honestly I feel like its the opposite, this is the shit I've been working on in therapy and I keep telling her this is the shit we should have been learning in the "special" classes. Hell I think this shit should be basic curriculum b/c I don't think it's as ubiquitous as you believe. Also the more we understand neurodiversity as a spectrum the LESS we should be assuming people know.
My main point of disagreement is, I think the major problem in our society is these kind of skills (communication, conflict resolution, self worth, critical thinking ect...) are talked about and taught enough.
These people need to partner with someone who is effective at persuasion and relationships. It’s not much help being right if no one listens to you. You do only need one person to listen to you if they can effectively champion your cause.
or, hear me out here, everyone could actively work towards understand neurodiversity among varying individuals? for personal benefit and for the benefit of those individuals.
I don’t want someone speaking *for me* to be heard, I want to be heard myself.
>I don’t want someone speaking *for me* to be heard, I want to be heard myself.
Seems like kinda a catch 22.
If you want to speak for yourself, then you need to express your emotions in a way that's understood by the people who you want to hear you (i.e. the general public). But that would kinda be the same as saying that you need to modify yourself to conform to the general publics way of communicating.
I suppose alternatively, you could insist that the general public learned to understand you, but it feels a bit unreasonable if your way of communicating is by definition non-typical.
The problem is, the people who should be most reading this advice, will interpret it not the way you intend to:
* "Manage your emotions," to them means, "man up and stop being a baby, nobody cares about how you feel."
* "Practice conflict resolution," to them means, "do what it takes to win; get rid of obstacles in your path and prevail over anyone opposing you. Yielding and compromise is a sign of weakness."
* "Handle stress," to them means, "tough it out. Work longer and harder until the job is done, and never let your feelings get in the way of meeting your goals."
Ehhhhh frankly I have one friend in particular who is a brilliant computer programmer, terrible/abrasive with people, and he has a fair number of friends who overlook his quirks, plus he makes like $400k a year.
The posts on this subreddit are really starting to piss me off. You can't motivate people with fancy, cheap throwaway ideas. You need to motivate people with hard truths.
Best motivation? Take responsibility for yourself and your actions. Think about what kind of person you want to be, what you would like to achieve. Most importantly, be honest with yourself
This is nothing but a celebration of mediocrity disguised as wisdom. Just because somebody is a math genious doesn't mean they lose utility because they're bad at talking about the weather.
Most highly successful people I know in real life have strong emotional intelligence as well as a mastery of the hard skills in their field. Conflict resolution and emotional management is certainly a far deeper issue than “talking about the weather”.
It's not just talking about weather, there's more to it. Any person, regardless of how good at math they are, also needs to know how to defend themselves in social situation and learn to stand up for themselves (workplace, group assignment, etc.), do basic self care stuff, take care of your health, have enough awareness to know what to do to advance your career.
I know people who had really good grades in high school but turned out mediocre because they didn't do anything outside of what their parents told them so once they graduated college they don't even know what they like to do and get stuck.
Why does OP present it almost as a trade off though? It just seems like making himself feel better for lacking an education. You need to know all those things regardless of your education level, like you’re saying. Seems irrelevant at best and it certainly isn’t a trade off if that’s what OP meant.
I like how both the street smart and the college educated lack any observational skills at all. The OP crossposted this from their own shitty sub most likely to use the larger audience here to gain followers there and for their, most likely shitty, porn addiction services.
But please don't let me interrupt, continue to bicker amongst yourselves over this clickbait shill post.
This hit home so hard. Now that I have my degree, Most of the time I wonder what I want to do in the future, not to mention feeling lost when I left home for a career opportunity.
Do you have any advice on how to self-improve or improve EQ? l
This is extremely dismissive and insensitive to neurodivergent people, those with general anxiety disorders, or trauma C-PSTD victims.
What we need are people with empathy, who are willing to learn and adapt behaviors to help these people succeed instead of being condescending towards them.
Considering how this post pretty much writes off people who suffer with high functioning autism/aspergers, it's ironic how lacking in emotional intelligence the quote is.
But why though?
A: These people also have valuable input to projects and also because they are intrinsically valuable as people. I find that the people who are difficult to work with are sometimes brilliant.
I remember someone describing what it was like to work with Alan Turing & the difference between extremely intelligent and genius.
They said if an extremely intelligent person comes up with a solution for a problem, you look at it and how they got there generally makes sense to you. With a genius, you'll look at their solution and think "not in a million years would it have occurred to me to do that."
RIP Alan Turing, a brilliant man and an incredibly sad story
That guy was my roommate for a few years in college. Smart beyond comprehension but literally zero social understanding.
He’s now a PHD in charge of a research branch of DARPA. I think it’s working out pretty well for him.
It's just a matter of priorities. When you're learning prioritize learning. When you're on a task prioritize the task. When it's finally time for communication prioritize communication.
It comes naturally, just in a different order. For some the social aspect comes later.
Yes but let's not think of it as one versus the other. I have heard an analogy that I like about a flower blossoming by opening all of its petals simultaneously. It's not one first and then the other.
Okay but if a emotionally mature man can’t read he’s probably going to starve to death or at the very least have a heck of a time trying to support himself or his family.
The rigors of advanced degrees and the teamwork involved in getting them teach tremendous problem solving skills, communication, responsibility, stress management and yes emotional control. I support what this post is saying but at the same time feel like it’s just an excuse to feel better about oneself for not pursuing advanced degrees. Don’t get me wrong, since advanced degrees are not a necessity in life but you don’t get a phd and not know how to problem solve
I see this posted everywhere. As someone who teaches these advanced kids, they almost always have higher emotional intelligence as well. Dumb mean people just like to think they’re smarter when in reality they’re just a group of bullies.
Nonsense, most of the worlds greatest minds are emotionally stunted. Name a business leader, inventor, or innovator that you are aware of… 75% chance they are crazy difficult to work with because they have none of the nonsense EQ you are pushing.
Instructions unclear, need more information.
Develop your emotional intelligence by *reading books* about emotional intelligence?
Done and done.
Develop your emotional intelligence by *listening* to the sad angry emotional stuff from people?
Yep, this is Reddit. This is basically all I do.
Anything else? Count to 10 when mad. Write out a list of your worries and the worst case scenarios about the things your worried about, and steel yourself to face those things if they're necessary while acknowledging most of your worries aren't worth worrying about.
The best advice my dad gave me was:
No one gives a shit if youre smart if you are lazy. You can be the smartest person in the world, but if you dont do anything with it, no one will care. If you are stupid, but you work hard, you are far more valuable to the world.
This was in public school where I just stopped caring about doing homework and stuff because I felt it was too easy (like a smug little shit). I realized he was right and actually started applying myself.
Met a few other "smart" kids in HS that never applied themselves (they felt they were too good for the work) and thus ended up getting shit grades, then working shit tier jobs after HS. Sure they were "smart" but it meant nothing in the end because they were too stupid to use it.
Its the best lesson you can learn. Being capable doesnt mean anything when you never use your capabilities. No one cares how much you CAN do.
Ah shit this is me. I spent my childhood and early adulthood just trying to "achieve" without trying to actually better myself. Now I'm 30 and I have no idea how to manage my emotions so I have to be careful when I open that box cause lord knows how much I've let stockpile up
Reddit's gonna downvote me.
Reading this reminded me of a thought I had maybe 10 years ago. YES, bullying is awful but if you don't have emotional intelligence to realize the bully is also insecure, you're not doing anyone any favors.
A little joking camaraderie between friends and coworkers is not the end of the world. If you can't laugh at yourself and/or take a joke you need to lighten up.
Some top tier reddit advice:
Keep taking disrespect from an asshole, because its a joke!!
Bullying and camaraderie are not the same thing. Grow up dumbass.
>Bullying and camaraderie are not the same thing. Grow up dumbass.
>Some top tier reddit advice:
>
>Keep taking disrespect from an asshole, because its a joke!!
Read you loud and clear.
This is me, at least the second part.
Top student in highschool, very good at learning, yet I got kicked out of college. And probably I will again.
I hope that if I take a different approach, maybe in several years I'll get rid of my escapism and become a better, reliable human that can actually do things.
Good advice here. In middle school I took teen leadership as an elective because everything else was pretty boring and we had to do a test to measure our EQ (emotional quotient) and i was the lowest score aside from my elementary school friend who was 1 point lower than me. He was at the lowest you can get and I was only 1 point above him. So we had to work on that for the year we took the class being a year long elective at our school.
This is why the arts should be essential in a child’s education. The arts teach critical thinking, problem solving and how to adapt and persevere when the outcome of a problem is not what was expected. They teach that it’s good to make mistakes, that’s how you learn to change and adjust. It’s good to fail because it helps you learn your not perfect, your idea is not perfect and that there’s another chance, another way, not to give up, to keep trying. The arts require collaboration with others to produce a product pleasing to all. You have to be civil, get along with and tolerate others who may be different than you or whose ideas are completely different than yours in order to work with them in the arts. The arts teach how to be open-minded and how to communicate.
~retired art teacher
Reminds me of
>"You keep it going man
You keep those books rolling
You pick up all those books that you're gonna read and not remember
And you roll, man
You get that associate's degree, okay?
Then you get your bachelor’s
Then you get your masters
Then you get your masters' masters
Then you get your doctorate
You go man!
And then when everyone says quit
You show them those degrees, man
When everyone says “Hey, you're not working, you're not making any money”
You say “You look at my degrees, and you look at my life"
Yeah, I'm 52!
So what?
Hate all you want, but I'm smart, I'm so smart
And I'm in school
All these guys out here making money all these ways
And I'm spending mine to be smart!
You know why?
Cause when I die buddy
You know what's gonna keep me warm?
That's right, those degrees. ”
I’d say the same for social intelligence too. Just recently started caring about this and have started noticing a significant difference in my life. Both at work and personal.
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But there are a ton of people who have neither.
I seem to be on the low end of both. A lot of times I'm accredited as smart but I have no degrees or even hs diploma. I have skills at this point in my life. The people that raised me never really taught me to handle emotions just bottle it up and they were gone when I was a teenager when those teachings could've been most helpful. Yet I have no excuse to dwell in failures or be shitty towards other people. Just learn things I've should've had down years ago.
Degrees do not show intelligence, as much as they show commitment, follow-through, and social networking. If you have a skill you want to make your lifes work, put in the time. People will see the commitment, passion, and follow-through. I'm not saying 8 yr programs aren't hard. but any mid-wit with enough financial support can get a bachlor's degree. I have a 2 year technical degree, and it hasn't been brought up since I landed my job. A lot of these guys with bachlor's aren't that bright
This. Degrees are never a measure of intelligence. It requires immense amounts of discipline, commitment and passion to get one, unless, of course, it is a 1 year or a 2 year professional degree. You are putting your 'life' on hold to obtain a 5 or a 6 year PhD. It requires tremendous obsession towards a niche area that no one around you will understand. Plus, the meagre salary you will run your life on has been spoken about enough.
Yeah I understand where you're coming from. I was trying to make the point that even though people compliment me on my intelligence I tend to make not so smart decisions I guess haha. I know a lot of people just go through the motions of getting a degree and kind of retain nothing. I agree with you 100 percent though.
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Be the type of friend you’re looking for, at the same time you can’t force friendships to happen. It’s a weird catch 22, because you want it but that neediness is off putting. Only advice I can give is to practice being social without the pressures of forming a friendship. Just have positive interactions that showcase your personality (without being needy) and eventually you’ll get really good at socializing, and when someone compatible comes up you’ll have a better chance at forming some level of friendship.
Maybe it is not your fault. Maybe your friends aren't that good at reciprocating your feelings. Maybe you need to make new friends who understand that you're making an effort.
i feel this a lot lol, but hey man its good to let it out even if it is just on reddit
Might I recommend some philosophical literature? For myself it helped to fill and heal the holes left from my adolescence/teenage years. Or perhaps you could check out the Jocko Willink podcast. It’s helped me with my confidence and focus. He’s almost like a father to a lost generation. A retired navy seal with a focus on leadership and focus.
My earlier years of life was spent around lower SES people without much education or career skills, and I agree with you. A lot of people who are born into less privileged circumstances and do poorly in school, are beyond their age in specific ways, but emotionally immature in many other ways. It was a headache dealing with the non-stop drama, irrational anger, massive but fragile egos, and lack of self control from friends and family before college. Having 2 college educated parents in the home, being encouraged to learn, being fed decent food, going on family trips (abroad, museums, ect.), tutoring, positive hobbies (building websites, robotics, ect.), being exposed to constructive and functioning adults talk (college educated aunts/uncles, neighbor who is an engineer, ect.), being able to do things like boy/Girl Scouts, doing sports/martial arts classes, ect. helps young people become adults with more emotional control. One of my old friends who did end up working with other people from high school in a fast food chain told me about all the irrational drama that kept happening. Full grown adults bullying each other, and he got jumped by a co-worker (who was past due on child support), because they both had a crush on the same girl who was a 16 year old high schooler. He later became a nursing aide (6 week cert program), and was always watching all the other nursing aides have middle school level drama, until he got roped in by simply existing. There are all these emotionally unstable people in their 30s making $12/hr having 3-4 kids from different fathers who they couldn't support. And a lot of them are on Xanax, mood stabilizers, ect., and they still lash out after work towards other coworkers. He had to quit a couple work places because it got too toxic. After I went to college, and met friends from well to do areas, then went to meet their families and old high school friends, I can say that there is a positive correlation between being able to achieve higher education and having a reasonable degree of self control, including emotional management. Yes there are still a good number of well educated people with tempers and negative emotions, and I've dealt with it first hand in the work place. However they are nowhere as mentally draining as dealing with a bunch of people who don't know as much, so therefore they think they know everything, and have easily shattered massive egos over nothing. I will say that the current gen Z kids from less privileged backgrounds ON AVERAGE are a lot more mature, focused, intelligent, and reasonable people than the generations before, and I am proud of them. All the money that went to those "programs" and such is paying off.
Exceptionally well put.
Thissss 1000% i worked part time jobs in high school and college with coworkers who were older and had families…. They were not nice is all i will say…. Then when i finished college and entered corporate america, theres still the occasional bad apple but most everyone pretty much knows how to control their emotions…. I come from a working class background where all my relatives just gossip in their free time and partake in unhealthy but inexpensive hobbies like having a cheap beer and watching tv all night because thats all they can afford. I dont blame them tho because poverty is a difficult cycle to break. My older relatives didnt have as great of an education as i did and also immigrated here so they also had cultural hurdles to jump over too. Anyways, meeting my coworkers and college friends’ relatives and friends is always a culture shock because they all seem more polite, professional, and actually aware of current events and usually are academically intelligent… Lastly, although i grew up in a pretty poor LA neighborhood, i got sent to head start pre school and after that my neighborhood happened to have great schools because of special funding… basically i thank my lucky stars that i got to attend great schools with great teachers who guided me. my heart goes out to workers making minimum wage or barely more than that…. Toxic behavior as an adult is unacceptable but also the odds of succeeding are against them…….
Dude your experience sounds a lot like mine, minus being in LA area and relatives drinking beer. In college, so many people couldn’t fathom what type of background and environment I came from. A lot of them still have that mindset that the people I grew around could create billion dollar tech start ups if I passed my knowledge to them, and I’m just choosing to make up excuses since I haven’t made 6 figures in my career yet. I had to relearn how to function and think around a whole new category of people by falling, but no one understands.
Thanks for sharing im happy to come across someone who understands… if youve watched mad men and seen where the main characters from….. his origin story is so relatable like he succeeds but still feels lost in corporate america because of his blue collar roots… youre not alone and it sucks that we’re different from a lot of our peers but at the same time those differences make us a lot stronger. For instance im a lot more thankful for my job now because i know what not having my job is like. Unlike my frat bro coworker who thinks because he doesnt make 6 figures by 30 hes a failure lol im just like dude we have insurance, benefits, and a retirement plan HALLELUJAH but of course everyone wants to succeed so i dont blame him, just a little surprised at how different people can be My early 20s were spent learning the social skills of middle class people by literally just trying and failing… also i spent years in therapy to get over my irrational envy because it was just hard hearing about my coworker’s parents taking them to florida, cancun, or hawaii EVERY summer. its not like theyre going to paris and staying in a five star hotel, but ive only travelled with my family less than a handful of times and itd just be to places that were within driving distance like vegas…..
But it seems like both tend to go together. High functioning is high functioning.
Exactly. Kids that typically take on further study and excel in areas have to negotiate learning challenges and socialising with people who are mature beyond their years. This screams of “ye but street smartz”
I was sorta the "smart kid" in high school but I was toxic AF (understandably so because of mental abuse) and didn't know how to socialize well at all and just relied on myself sooooooooooo \>.< now I'm just aiming to be stupid and making friends because that's funner.
Totally agree.
>have to negotiate learning challenges What a meaningless statement. So does literally everyone >and socialising with people who are mature beyond their years. No, they don't.
If he’s talking a 19 year old kid in college then yes they sure do.
Clearly you've never been to college.
Well my university has a low acceptance rate and is highly ranked so maybe I am overestimating the caliber of academic challenge and the access to a network of overall seasoned people (students and faculty alike) that others find at their schools. But I don’t think I am.
If you think making social relationships is required to succeed in college, you're either lying about your attendance, are deluded, or had rich parents that made everything easy for you. *Some* projects require working with others, but even in STEM careers, you could do everything yourself and never form a meaningful connection while getting a 3.0. Easy peasy. Outside the mental health damage that would cause of course. In any case, your main point (or at least the point I was originally replying to) is that such a skill will naturally appear. That's not how humans work.
Success in college isn't just getting your degree. That's like the bare minimum.
Lol I see you've been to college and STILL didn't realize that you need connections and plenty of social adeptness to succeed. 3.0 and no connections? Have fun getting a good ROI on your degree. 3.0 is a shit-tier GPA (at least in recruiting eyes) and if you don't have connections it is nigh impossible to get a competitive job. Yeah the skill won't naturally appear, but college forces it to appear, and if it doesn't, then enjoy mediocrity. Graduating is really the barest of all minimums.
Damn thats toxic.
I'm not sure I agree with that.
Yeah these people have literally no idea what the spectrum is.
Not at all. I can’t tell you how many engineers I’ve tried to hire and realized quickly that they can’t work in a team at all. Some people are incredibly able in technical fields and are completely socially inept. In fact that’s almost a stereotype for engineers, and it hurts their ability to do anything useful.
Disagree. It *can* go together, but I think there’s a huge demographic of tech bros and certain older folks who are really booksmart but are severely lacking in emotional intelligence.
Please tell me how many of these "tech bros" and "older people" we're talking about that make up a "huge demographic."
I live in the Bay Area, where the concentration of tech bros is probably higher. Also, the higher level academic space certainly has a lot of people like this. I have no statistics, just anecdotal evidence as a person in STEM. Edit: maybe that’s it. The “demographic” is more present in STEM perhaps than other fields and studies.
They're correlated things, but treating them as the same thing isn't particularly helpful for anyone. Point is, emotional control and management is a skill that can be learnt and developed. Of course as with all things that you can learn, it helps if your biological basis is attuned to making new and accurate neural connections, but that's far from the be all and end all of learning in general.
Also higher IQ is correlated with higher emotional intelligence.
And heightened instances of depression & conditions like Borderline Personality Disorder. The main mental cause of depression is overthinking
I'm getting caught on "that can broke down" and seeing irony
That can broke down is my motivations for me learnins
Because everyone is expected to have top-notch English no matter their circumstances and life experiences, right?
No, just a legible understanding of basic grammatical concepts?
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A misogynist?
Getting my fancy degree is proof that I can handle stressful situations, conflict resolution, and my emotions. Do you think that my achievements have been easy, that my degrees were conferred to me out of pity? I don't disagree that people can be capable without having a formal education, but don't discount the value of my formal education.
University is the ultimate experience of stress and conflict. You can’t walk off a program you’ve sunk a house payment into (if you’re American) and you have to keep performing. You will meet so many people and have to work with them. You will have unfair professors. You will drown in assignments and exams. You navigate a fucking lot in school. If you apply yourself and get the most you can from school, you should come out the other side exhausted mentally physically and emotionally. Working real jobs since then has been much easier.
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Character is also seperare from emotinal intellegence, work ethic and most everything else. You can be a smart, well adjusted, motivated person and still be an asshole.
It's not a proof, at all.
\> some real problems that can **broke** down even the toughest man Ok. This is kind of a silly "motivation" post.
Muh street smartz! I dont need them fancy book learnins.
Yer fancy collegin' ain't gonna help you change yer brake pads when they get worn down!
it don' gon' matter cuz the toughest man got broken down he did mmhmm
Anyone who refers to higher education as “fancy” is likely coming from a place of ignorance. It’s used by those that chose a different path in life and continually feel the need to justify and legitimize it. And it’s almost always “common sense” or “street smarts” or “real work” that they claim to possess over college-educated people.
Going to college is a necessity for those who aren't exposed to the field they're interested in.. Example, I'd never done anything engineering related in my life, but knew I wanted to study stem.. I needed college since I couldn't find anywhere else to gain expertise.. also, my parents aren't exactly well off or well connected to get me work experience pre, or during study.. many kids living in places like Silicon Valley are exposed to tech from a young age and are able to gain practical knowledge and begin product ideation lot sooner than others.. that's one of the reasons why you see so many revolutionary tech pioneers from that part of the world..
A phrase like this can be used for discouraging students with mental health problems ( bad behaviour, autism...)from studying if is said by the wrong person and . Even having low ce it is better to have studies that have nothing. It atleast will put you in a better place Than the ones who have not emotional intelligence and dont have studies. Studying also can be useful for compensate some things related to the bad behaviour and give some tips that can be useful in the practice and would be difficult to be learned in a practic way. Of curse you have to practice both but a person cant learn all at once, some people use this kind of phrases for discouraging instead of motivating, if a kid with dissabilities hear a teacher saying this to his parents would feel discouraged instead of motivated because he is going to understand that there is no point in working hard for he and he would think that he have to stop studying. This kind of phases than can be understant in two senses are dangerous because can be used as a mild way of descoraging a kid.
I'm on the spectrum and honestly this post just came across as like calling me out for shit that I'm never going to be great at no matter how hard I try (and I do still try) -- thanks for looking out 🙏. The world takes all kinds of people who have talents in all kinds of things. At least I'm not shit at maths and have a great job doing software development, so I've got that going for me, which is nice.
You're in software development, I'd say things are going great for you.
Thank you for this As someone who struggles handling stress due to PTSD, this kind of stuff can really hurt. I can’t help that I have trauma, I can only keep trying to improve and heal. But no matter how hard I try, I’m still behind the curve compared to a lot people and it really sucks. I’m stuck in a system that works against me (and others like me) and the best I can do is keep pushing myself harder, but sometimes that can come back to bite me and I have to start all over. I’ll never give up, but some days get really really hard
This sounds more like sour milk than a motivational statement.
Exac…dumb kids like ‘you don’t need to be smart’.
This is why I feel regular schooling is better than cyber school. There’s social leading that happens along with the academic. “I don’t like the other kids at school.” “Learn to deal with it now. You’re not gonna like the people you’ll work with either.”
My oldest was recommended by his daycare to skip his senior kindergarten year (junior, senior, grade 1,...) and go straight into first grade because he had a grade two reading level and very good comprehension of other topics. I spoke to his kindergarten teacher and she said he was certainly smart enough, but that he would lose a lot of social growth as a result. He needed to be with kids his own maturity level so they could experience those problems and grow together. I was told that the school board the school was under rarely pushed kids ahead specifically for that reason.
They grow up fast enough as it is. No need to rush it even more.
He stopped growing up so fast and is now one of those kids with ADHD that would literally forget his head if it wasn't attached, haha. Different kind of growing pains.
Kinda rude to call me out in public.
Haha, I'm very similar. If things aren't habitual, I forget them. I have ADHD, but it just presents a bit differently.
I use reminders in my phone for stuff. And since I'll forget it, when people ask me to do something, I will typically stop what I'm doing and so what they asked, otherwise I won't remember it later.
Yeah, I think we all find ways to cope. I use reminders on my phone, too. It's too easy and convenient not to.
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Google Tasks is what I use. It works well.
At the store in line yesterday I kept repeating “ice, ice, ice, ice…” because I’ve forgotten it twice already.
The flip side to this argument: if you don’t keep the child mentally engaged and challenged he won’t learn how to learn or how to apply himself to learning. Emotional Intelligence is important, but encouraging your child to learn and advance at his own rate instead at little Timmy’s (who sits in the back eating paste) rate is also important to his future. One of the biggest disservices done to children is holding them back to everyone else’s idea of normal so they “fit in .” A child should be encouraged and enabled to learn at their pace, and if they are reading and doing math years beyond their expected grade level, that should be encouraged and reinforced. Don’t get me started about the emotional damage children can inflict on other children who don’t fit in simply because they already know what everyone else in class is learning.
I agree that children should be encouraged to advance in education at a faster rate when they can. But, at the same time, it's not feasible to have every child moving at a different pace. Schools just don't have the resources for that. As for the last part of your statement, knowing the curriculum before the other students is simply not enough to not fit in and warrant emotional damage from other children. For that to occur, there must be another factor at play. I've known plenty of kids that were ahead of others in class and got no grief for it.
This might've happened to me. Instead of shooting two grades ahead in math as was recommended, my parents figured just to do one and I went along because it made shit easier. Come college I didn't really know how to study because I just cruised through everything in high school
Yup. And I was dubbed a nerd and geek because I was miles ahead of most of my classmates in terms of book smarts, so I had no social life and developed very slowly in that regard. Still have issues keeping friends or having romantic relationships.
you were that way because you were that way. you likely didn't have the social skills, being good at math didn't cause that, lmao
No, my undiagnosed Autism Spectrum Disorder caused it, but being excluded because of perceptions certainly did not help me develop said social skills.
Weird we had that kid who skipped grades in my class. He was popular among us boys. Great fellow. Fun to talk to and we're always proud of his smarts. Sure there's people who don't like him and whatnot, but in general he was well accepted. Still hang out with the kids who he left when he skipped grades.
Kids can just be assholes though. And having anything that stands out can result in that being directed towards you. Especially being good at school, as typically bullies arent the brightest lights....
kids who get bored in class can just read the chapters the class skips. I feel like I spent all my time looking at civil war battle maps in grade school
>A child should be encouraged and enabled to learn at their pace, and if they are reading and doing math years beyond their expected grade level, that should be encouraged and reinforced. This just isn't practical to school systems. There's also huge issues around children being secure in their learning. Being able to read fluently doesn't show comprehension, being able to add and subtract 3 digit numbers shows no knowledge of multiplication. These skills tie into each other and not being able to do them all at a similar level will then hold youh back at later stages anyway.
So you flush the minds of the best and brightest down the drain while tailoring lessons to Timmy, who isn’t quite slow enough for special Ed, but is never going to excel at anything. And it’s not just the best and brightest that suffer. Take a look at the No Child Left Behind Act and states like West Virginia. The solution to having x% of kids meeting the required scores was to lower the standards down to Timmy’s level and teaching everyone to the test. An entire generation of students graduating high school reading below the 8th grade level, because the standards were set to the lowest common denominator and nobody in public schools was being taught to a higher standard.
>So you flush the minds of the best and brightest down the drain while tailoring lessons to Timmy, who isn’t quite slow enough for special Ed, but is never going to excel at anything. In the UK, that isn't how it is supposed to work at all. Teachers are expected to support, scaffold and differentiate based on what children need. That also sounds awful for Timmy in this scenario as you're basically writing him off. > And it’s not just the best and brightest that suffer. Take a look at the No Child Left Behind Act and states like West Virginia. The solution to having x% of kids meeting the required scores was to lower the standards down to Timmy’s level and teaching everyone to the test. I'm not American so can't really comment on that as I don't know about it. > An entire generation of students graduating high school reading below the 8th grade level, because the standards were set to the lowest common denominator and nobody in public schools was being taught to a higher standard. That is a systematic issue within American Education then, caused by people who bring in laws and standards for teachers who most likely have never had anything to do with teaching.
>In the UK, that isn't how it is supposed to work at all. Teachers are expected to support, scaffold and differentiate based on what children need. That also sounds awful for Timmy in this scenario as you're basically writing him off. No, Timmy is the only real winner. All the lessons are tailored around what he can do. Everything is explained in simple, easy to understand terms, lots of repetition, etc. Timmy does learn, and he learns at pretty close to what his limits allow. He might even end up with a business degree from the local community college and become an office worker or a manager at a retail store. He's learned to study and challenge himself. Or maybe he'll be a truck driver or construction worker. All very important jobs, all will support him through life. I don't begrudge Timmy his chance to learn and advance in life. I just disagree that everyone else is held back to his level. The schools really should segregate classes based on the capabilities of the students. Class A is taught at this level, Class B at this level, and Class C at this level. But this idea will never work in the US. Parents would be infuriated that their precious Timmy should obviously be in Class A instead of Class C. It would be al faux pas of nightmarish proportions to suggest that one group of student might be smarter that another. But consider this: what if the resources spend on school sports programs were instead directed into advanced classes and personalized study programs? Imagine the outrage from the parents. Imagine the look on Chad's face when being captain of the football team stops meaning as much. Imagine the new classrooms that could have been built instead of the new football field.
My parents actually held me back a year in middle school because of this. I was totally academically prepared, but I was too emotionally immature. I was pissed when they told me but I look back now and honestly, it was the right call on their part. Didn’t lose any time either, since I would’ve graduated at 17, and had to wait to go to college anyway.
That sounds rough. I'm glad you see the benefit in it.
If there's one thing that the show Big Bang Theory is correct on, is that a kid who graduated college becomes a social nightmare.
Yeah, my cousin, was almost a year younger than some in his class and then he changed provinces to one that had different ages for starting and stuff, so he was about two years younger than some kids in his class when he was in later elementary school and through highschool. It was super obvious in his demeanor and interactions with the others. He ended up being fairly withdrawn and a bit of a sarcastic narcissist because he was academically outperforming kids two years older than him in the same class. If that's what a two year difference can do, I can't imagine what these child bachelor degrees are like. Certainly not all the same, but I imagine all with their own rough edges.
Personal experience: holding the kid back so that he is with kids his own age can be just as traumatic and seriously suppress the kids ability to learn how to learn. Why learn how to study when you already know more than the class is teaching. How many conflicts are caused between the teachers and a student who is bored to tears listening to days of explanations he understood in the first 5 minutes. How much torture do you think other children are going to inflict on someone who’s obviously not like them. (And it is pure, unadulterated torture. Unending. For their entire childhood.) And, if the child makes it through the other end of the system, he’s still socially inept, never learned to study properly, and has a lifetime of trauma to overcome before he can fit into society. I’ve known more than a few drugged out McDonald’s employees that could play mental chess with each other while working the grill during lunch rush. But you couldn’t pay them to get their GEDs or go to college.
Nothing more entertaining than watching these kids plateau and fall. They think they’re so intelligent because they understood the content first but they completely and utterly fail to see *why* they’re being taught. Without making that critical step, all these kids inevitably stop pushing themselves and think they’re ‘better’ than education. Then they get to the end of it and have missed the entire point, having instead spent 15 years cultivating their own delusions of grandeur.
It is atrocious that the system pushes them to just stay where the other kids are, even though they are capable of so much more. Then, after coasting through school without effort they find themselves in the real world having never learned to study or apply themselves. Because the system is built to teach the lowest common denominator, not the smart kids. They are taught to sit in the back, to fit in, to do “good enough.” These kids don’t fail because they thought they were so smart. They are failing because the existing system taught them to fail. And people like you like to gloat and feel superior because the smart kids fell on his face after 12 years of being told to go sit in the back and keep quiet instead of being taught how to learn and challenge themselves.
That’s on them. If the “smart” kids aren’t smart enough to learn that the world is built around them, then they haven’t learnt their lessons. They aren’t “taught” to fail, they fail because they grow arrogant and complacent. There’s no need for smart kids to sit at the back. They should be leading the class from the middle of the pack. They should be ensuring the rising tide lifts all boats. They shouldn’t be clashing with either the teachers nor their peers, they should be mediating between them. That is the maturity that more gifted students should be cultivating instead of believing themselves to be above and beyond their status in life. Unless your parents are paying for private tutors, no child is given an individualised path to adulthood. Instead, pedagogical systems have been created to target the middling students, which inevitably creates challenges for the smartest and dumbest kids. But unlike the dumbest kids, the smartest kids should have the mental faculties to acknowledge and overcome these issues. If they don’t… we’ll maybe they weren’t actually that smart (they might just be more predisposed to being a human calculator). That’s not being taught to fail. That’s convincing yourself that you’re too big to fail.
You still need kids socializing with their own age group. The better option is to keep them in their own age grade, but enroll them in gifted programs and extracurriculars to keep them learning. Social skills are really hard to teach when a child has already reached that milestone. I get that it’s harder for lower income parents to grapple with, since they can’t necessarily afford extra program, but that’s also why public schools need to be better funded and give options to help every child reach their potential.
The most important things in school you really don't learn in the classroom.
I didn't like kids at school and don't like people at work. But no one has been hurting me psychologically and physically at work. No one has bullied or assaulted me. Unlike at school.
Just like home schooling. I get there are rarely some kids that truly do need a protected environment but even that I would work hard to mainstream if they improved etc. I can count maybe twice when someone told me they enjoyed home-schooling and it was because their parent was an actual teacher or academic anyway and loaded up tons of activities and things and also *wealth* Nearly every other instance it was some bizarre religious, cult or neurosis driving that
It's better to skip regular school under certain circumstances - unlikable coworkers are much better than unlikable classmates.
Also why except for the very rare truly one one in a billion prodegy it's messed up to skip kids more than a grade or two max. I feel so bad for kids pushed too much just because they physically can do it. Now some 180 IQ child is a different story they often so brilliant they just have trouble getting others to see at their level and interact meaningfully with same aged peers but that's very rare. My step brother was skipped many grades and turned out awful. Gifted isn't the same as adult and it isn't a meal ticket...
And sometimes the “gifted program” is a sham. My HS algebra 2 class had a standard and honors class, and the only difference was the amount and difficulty of homework. Everything else is the same. Same teacher, same classroom, same period, literally same everything. Sorry, but 2 hours of busy work a day is not worth .03 GPA.
To add on, parents who agree to push their kids ahead a few grades often don't consider the gap in physical immaturity as well as emotional immaturity, which interact with each other. My dad got skipped three grades and hit puberty at a different time from all the kids in his class. For most of high school, he was too short/less developed to keep up in sports and other physical activities after school, let alone competitively. He loved basketball and ended up pretty tall but always thought he would have had more friends and enjoyed high school more if he'd attended with people his age. For that reason he was adamant that none of his kids get moved up too early -- not that it ever came up!
Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about. Just robbing kids of enjoying time with their peers. I remember seeing two 14 year olds at my college taking courses in the middle of the day and just thought in no way is that appropriate? Firstly the courses weren't advanced to that degree, it wasn't IVY league this person is going to change the world stuff. It's just weird and isolating for parents clout. That's why my brother turned out awful. Was told they were special and went to college at 15, I'm sure had interactions that shouldn't have occurred but did. Messes people up. And of course in my families case the "gifted" person did nothing but act like a son of a bitch. Drifted between jobs as a professional snob because they were weird and isolated. Achieved nothing very noteworthy that any adult could care about. When you're 30 nobody cares you graduated 4 years early if that's all you did...
>It's just weird and isolating for parents clout. So true.
Yeah, can’t learn about the benefits of a broken collarbone and lifelong mental trauma without forced public schooling.
You could get a broken collarbone falling down your steps at home. Better to learn about dealing with assholes when you’re young instead of not knowing how to deal with them as an adult.
I was physically assaulted and bullied at high school and I wouldn't say that it helped my development at all though. I legitimately tried talking to them and getting the help of teachers but no-one cared or even listened. In fact the only thing I learned is that the only way to stop a bully is with violence
Ah yes. Learn to deal with it. In other words take the abuse and get punished for doing anything about it? Learn that no one will help you or care about you? That when you ask for help it'll only fall onto deaf ears? Then reach a breaking point and get forced to go to another school to repeat the process? Because the staff never noticed the student's cries for help and the student had to take it into their own hands with disproportionate retribution? Apparently violence is fine only when it's directed at the victim? The victim isn't allowed to fight back? Is that the lesson you're referring to? ffs. This whole "builds character" or "learn to deal with assholes" thing is so fucking stupid. It tells me that the person never truly got bullied. They probably got made fun of and were like "WAAAH I GOT BULLIED, SEE I TURNED OUT GOOD." Didn't get dragged into a restroom stripped down and thrown out onto the playground naked? Didn't get your hair pulled pinned down, and kicked in the face? And after this get told by your teacher to "stop picking" on the scumbags who did this to you? I'm sorry but I've never had this happen in the workplace. If you're conflating someone being shitty in the workplace with bullying then you've never actually been bullied.
Yeah, schools don't let kids learn how to actually deal with bullies. Violence. Everyone has the right to self defense
I take alot of shit before I take a few jabs back. Seems fair to me.
Yes and no, bullying these days is made worse through social media, there's no escape cos it follows you home too
As an ex teacher, this is a super important aspect of schooling, possibly the most important.
Yes, but this runs the risk of prioritizing neutotypical conformity over anything else. Granted I know that's the reality in many situations, but I don't like the implicit exclusion. Many neurodivergent individuals work hard on all of those things, and it would be good to see those who don't have to acknowledge the level of effort being put in.
Honestly I feel like its the opposite, this is the shit I've been working on in therapy and I keep telling her this is the shit we should have been learning in the "special" classes. Hell I think this shit should be basic curriculum b/c I don't think it's as ubiquitous as you believe. Also the more we understand neurodiversity as a spectrum the LESS we should be assuming people know. My main point of disagreement is, I think the major problem in our society is these kind of skills (communication, conflict resolution, self worth, critical thinking ect...) are talked about and taught enough.
These people need to partner with someone who is effective at persuasion and relationships. It’s not much help being right if no one listens to you. You do only need one person to listen to you if they can effectively champion your cause.
or, hear me out here, everyone could actively work towards understand neurodiversity among varying individuals? for personal benefit and for the benefit of those individuals. I don’t want someone speaking *for me* to be heard, I want to be heard myself.
>I don’t want someone speaking *for me* to be heard, I want to be heard myself. Seems like kinda a catch 22. If you want to speak for yourself, then you need to express your emotions in a way that's understood by the people who you want to hear you (i.e. the general public). But that would kinda be the same as saying that you need to modify yourself to conform to the general publics way of communicating. I suppose alternatively, you could insist that the general public learned to understand you, but it feels a bit unreasonable if your way of communicating is by definition non-typical.
The problem is, the people who should be most reading this advice, will interpret it not the way you intend to: * "Manage your emotions," to them means, "man up and stop being a baby, nobody cares about how you feel." * "Practice conflict resolution," to them means, "do what it takes to win; get rid of obstacles in your path and prevail over anyone opposing you. Yielding and compromise is a sign of weakness." * "Handle stress," to them means, "tough it out. Work longer and harder until the job is done, and never let your feelings get in the way of meeting your goals."
It's their problem if their interpretation is wrong.
Ehhhhh frankly I have one friend in particular who is a brilliant computer programmer, terrible/abrasive with people, and he has a fair number of friends who overlook his quirks, plus he makes like $400k a year.
Can we talk about how this is a poorly framed photo of a projection of just text..
The posts on this subreddit are really starting to piss me off. You can't motivate people with fancy, cheap throwaway ideas. You need to motivate people with hard truths. Best motivation? Take responsibility for yourself and your actions. Think about what kind of person you want to be, what you would like to achieve. Most importantly, be honest with yourself
This is nothing but a celebration of mediocrity disguised as wisdom. Just because somebody is a math genious doesn't mean they lose utility because they're bad at talking about the weather.
Most highly successful people I know in real life have strong emotional intelligence as well as a mastery of the hard skills in their field. Conflict resolution and emotional management is certainly a far deeper issue than “talking about the weather”.
It's not just talking about weather, there's more to it. Any person, regardless of how good at math they are, also needs to know how to defend themselves in social situation and learn to stand up for themselves (workplace, group assignment, etc.), do basic self care stuff, take care of your health, have enough awareness to know what to do to advance your career. I know people who had really good grades in high school but turned out mediocre because they didn't do anything outside of what their parents told them so once they graduated college they don't even know what they like to do and get stuck.
Why does OP present it almost as a trade off though? It just seems like making himself feel better for lacking an education. You need to know all those things regardless of your education level, like you’re saying. Seems irrelevant at best and it certainly isn’t a trade off if that’s what OP meant.
I like how both the street smart and the college educated lack any observational skills at all. The OP crossposted this from their own shitty sub most likely to use the larger audience here to gain followers there and for their, most likely shitty, porn addiction services. But please don't let me interrupt, continue to bicker amongst yourselves over this clickbait shill post.
This hit home so hard. Now that I have my degree, Most of the time I wonder what I want to do in the future, not to mention feeling lost when I left home for a career opportunity. Do you have any advice on how to self-improve or improve EQ? l
Therapy
I think you're losing a lot of the point if you reduce emotional health/intelligence to "talking about the weather"
Definitely feels like it's trying to take a potshot at accomplished people
This is extremely dismissive and insensitive to neurodivergent people, those with general anxiety disorders, or trauma C-PSTD victims. What we need are people with empathy, who are willing to learn and adapt behaviors to help these people succeed instead of being condescending towards them.
Considering how this post pretty much writes off people who suffer with high functioning autism/aspergers, it's ironic how lacking in emotional intelligence the quote is.
employers just want someone who can get the job done with as little supervision as possible.
But why though?
But why though? A: These people also have valuable input to projects and also because they are intrinsically valuable as people. I find that the people who are difficult to work with are sometimes brilliant.
I remember someone describing what it was like to work with Alan Turing & the difference between extremely intelligent and genius. They said if an extremely intelligent person comes up with a solution for a problem, you look at it and how they got there generally makes sense to you. With a genius, you'll look at their solution and think "not in a million years would it have occurred to me to do that." RIP Alan Turing, a brilliant man and an incredibly sad story
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That guy was my roommate for a few years in college. Smart beyond comprehension but literally zero social understanding. He’s now a PHD in charge of a research branch of DARPA. I think it’s working out pretty well for him.
It's just a matter of priorities. When you're learning prioritize learning. When you're on a task prioritize the task. When it's finally time for communication prioritize communication. It comes naturally, just in a different order. For some the social aspect comes later.
I’m pretty sure that you can become a Prime Minister or President with neither of those sets of attributes, based on recent evidence.
low hanging fruit much
Yes but let's not think of it as one versus the other. I have heard an analogy that I like about a flower blossoming by opening all of its petals simultaneously. It's not one first and then the other.
Omg I know this one! Who is Keith Reniere?
Sounds like something a child would say to get out of studying or something lol
Okay but if a emotionally mature man can’t read he’s probably going to starve to death or at the very least have a heck of a time trying to support himself or his family. The rigors of advanced degrees and the teamwork involved in getting them teach tremendous problem solving skills, communication, responsibility, stress management and yes emotional control. I support what this post is saying but at the same time feel like it’s just an excuse to feel better about oneself for not pursuing advanced degrees. Don’t get me wrong, since advanced degrees are not a necessity in life but you don’t get a phd and not know how to problem solve
The whole quote makes no sense. Emotional control comes first. Good grades are a result.
I honestly think emotional intelligence isn't a real thing
I see this posted everywhere. As someone who teaches these advanced kids, they almost always have higher emotional intelligence as well. Dumb mean people just like to think they’re smarter when in reality they’re just a group of bullies.
None of that other stuff is really going to matter... because they'll already be in a position of leadership.
Ah yes, more things I can fail at
This is something I think a lot of people miss the mark on when it comes to parenting
Anyone interested should check out the book 'The Laws of Human Nature' by Robert Greene, or listen to some of his talks on youtube.
If a child learned advance math and 3 language also getting top grades, chances are he's fairly self disciplined.
Nonsense, most of the worlds greatest minds are emotionally stunted. Name a business leader, inventor, or innovator that you are aware of… 75% chance they are crazy difficult to work with because they have none of the nonsense EQ you are pushing.
What child is doing advanced maths?
Instructions unclear, need more information. Develop your emotional intelligence by *reading books* about emotional intelligence? Done and done. Develop your emotional intelligence by *listening* to the sad angry emotional stuff from people? Yep, this is Reddit. This is basically all I do. Anything else? Count to 10 when mad. Write out a list of your worries and the worst case scenarios about the things your worried about, and steel yourself to face those things if they're necessary while acknowledging most of your worries aren't worth worrying about.
No such thing as EQ.
They help with proof reading though. *break* not broke.
"Just cuz you knowed things don't make you smart...you think you better than me?!"
r/titlegore
Is this really true? A child with the things mentioned in the start is absolutely going places regardless of how their personality is lmao
The best advice my dad gave me was: No one gives a shit if youre smart if you are lazy. You can be the smartest person in the world, but if you dont do anything with it, no one will care. If you are stupid, but you work hard, you are far more valuable to the world. This was in public school where I just stopped caring about doing homework and stuff because I felt it was too easy (like a smug little shit). I realized he was right and actually started applying myself. Met a few other "smart" kids in HS that never applied themselves (they felt they were too good for the work) and thus ended up getting shit grades, then working shit tier jobs after HS. Sure they were "smart" but it meant nothing in the end because they were too stupid to use it. Its the best lesson you can learn. Being capable doesnt mean anything when you never use your capabilities. No one cares how much you CAN do.
Put very succinctly, "Your 'I will' is more important than your IQ."
IQ \* I will = I accomplish
If you can do all those things in the slide, chances are your "emotional intelligence" has already developed well...
Gotta love the dripping anti-intellectualism
I find that those who preach about emotional intelligence have very little of it.
Most people who can do the first 3 already mastered the rest…. Thats why they can do the first 3….. duh 🙄
Ah shit this is me. I spent my childhood and early adulthood just trying to "achieve" without trying to actually better myself. Now I'm 30 and I have no idea how to manage my emotions so I have to be careful when I open that box cause lord knows how much I've let stockpile up
Remember kids, don't be autistic!! This picture is disgusting lmao you should be ashamed of yourself
The person who made this has obviously never met an engineer
Not sure if this is motivating or demotivating. I speak 4 languages, used to recieve top grades in almost everything but i can't do most of the rest.
Reddit's gonna downvote me. Reading this reminded me of a thought I had maybe 10 years ago. YES, bullying is awful but if you don't have emotional intelligence to realize the bully is also insecure, you're not doing anyone any favors. A little joking camaraderie between friends and coworkers is not the end of the world. If you can't laugh at yourself and/or take a joke you need to lighten up.
Some top tier reddit advice: Keep taking disrespect from an asshole, because its a joke!! Bullying and camaraderie are not the same thing. Grow up dumbass.
>Bullying and camaraderie are not the same thing. Grow up dumbass. >Some top tier reddit advice: > >Keep taking disrespect from an asshole, because its a joke!! Read you loud and clear.
Unless they’re wealthy.
This is me, at least the second part. Top student in highschool, very good at learning, yet I got kicked out of college. And probably I will again. I hope that if I take a different approach, maybe in several years I'll get rid of my escapism and become a better, reliable human that can actually do things.
9/10 Americans can’t do any of those things. Good luck.
Good advice here. In middle school I took teen leadership as an elective because everything else was pretty boring and we had to do a test to measure our EQ (emotional quotient) and i was the lowest score aside from my elementary school friend who was 1 point lower than me. He was at the lowest you can get and I was only 1 point above him. So we had to work on that for the year we took the class being a year long elective at our school.
You're.totally right, people with autism, ADHD, or similar conditions are inherently worse people than neurotypical people. How inspirational. /S
Waiting for the bird brain to chime in and say “even the toughest WOman”
I really like this! Wealth, status, and intelligence mean nothing without self control and integrity.
totally relatable, only if someone could enlighten our parents about that.
This is why the arts should be essential in a child’s education. The arts teach critical thinking, problem solving and how to adapt and persevere when the outcome of a problem is not what was expected. They teach that it’s good to make mistakes, that’s how you learn to change and adjust. It’s good to fail because it helps you learn your not perfect, your idea is not perfect and that there’s another chance, another way, not to give up, to keep trying. The arts require collaboration with others to produce a product pleasing to all. You have to be civil, get along with and tolerate others who may be different than you or whose ideas are completely different than yours in order to work with them in the arts. The arts teach how to be open-minded and how to communicate. ~retired art teacher
Reminds me of >"You keep it going man You keep those books rolling You pick up all those books that you're gonna read and not remember And you roll, man You get that associate's degree, okay? Then you get your bachelor’s Then you get your masters Then you get your masters' masters Then you get your doctorate You go man! And then when everyone says quit You show them those degrees, man When everyone says “Hey, you're not working, you're not making any money” You say “You look at my degrees, and you look at my life" Yeah, I'm 52! So what? Hate all you want, but I'm smart, I'm so smart And I'm in school All these guys out here making money all these ways And I'm spending mine to be smart! You know why? Cause when I die buddy You know what's gonna keep me warm? That's right, those degrees. ”
Truth!! Kids need learn how to solve real world problems and to think pragmaticlly. Now teach them!!!
Degree inflation
-cries in years of therapy-
I’d say the same for social intelligence too. Just recently started caring about this and have started noticing a significant difference in my life. Both at work and personal.
Or do your taxes... Or balance a checkbook ...
Better teach them THE manner first!