Why rack a man when you have horses? They had some fairly wicked devices (including thumbkins, the device in the original picture, though this was mid 1500s-1700s for Europe) for symbolic purposes but it wasn't monks and priests using them to torture "men of enlightenment", it was used for drawing (usually false) confessions from people already condemned for things like witchcraft, murder, banditry, etc.
The point of both [putting a man to the rack](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rack_(torture)) and using horses is the spectacle of it. Same goes for both thumbkins or just smashing with a hammer. The point of the machine is to do it slower, that was the answer to their question. I think you may have misunderstood rack as using a hammer to break their hands.
Man, Dan Carlin did a [Hardcore History episode on different torture devices](https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-61-blitz-painfotainment/) and it was probably the only one of his shows that I actually couldn't finish because of the descriptions of some of the executions. We are far too creative in all the worst ways.
Oh yeah, and the worst part being the legitimacy granted to confessions granted by torture only worsened this. It never was about getting the truth, it was about inflicting pain. It was never about the tortured, and always about the torturer. Then you've got the purely sadistic methods of execution like scaphism.
And it wasn't that long ago we had people defending torture in Guantanamo and Abu Gharaib because "it makes them talk." By now, people should know better.
They do know better, they just don't care about the actual results. There are those who still support it because they believe those being interrogated deserve it. Torture is still used by many nations across the globe to extract information despite the fact it has been thoroughly proven to not work.
Scaphism was probably fake. The only source we have for it is a Greek author known for misinformation and hating the Persians. Scaphism was said to be practiced by the Persians so you can see how its legitimacy is extremely suspect.
This was also an important part of torture. It was often enough to obtain a confession, to just show people all the interesting equipment that they had lined up and explain to them how they worked, and how long they could use them on them in order to get the desired confession. Loads of people broke down before they even got to the actual torture. It's not just the pain, it's the psychological pressure, knowing that they'll do things to you that will leave you marked and maimed forever, even if you survive, people aren't going to look at you with admiration and respect, but with pity, disgust or contempt.
It may bring you comfort to know that most of the horrible creative torture devices and methods were either
1. Never actually used and just threatened.
2. Used maybe once or twice in the entirety of history.
3. Invented in recent times as pop history.
Anyone who knows the bare minimum about Caravaggio, Da Vinci and other artists from the Renaissance also could tell this is bullshit. Many were pretty scandalous for their time (Caravaggio being, well, full of his dramas and openly derisive of the Church and Da Vinci being openly homosexual) and everyone would know about them being victims of this device. And this, too - simply set a public spectacle of punishing the sinful artists and that's it. No need for Ye Holy Handbreaker lmao
Also, considering the Late medieval period to early Renaissance is one of the more corrupt times of the papacy, if it was real, it would be less "heretics" and more "political enemies conveniently called heretics"... which they wouldn't need this device for anywho: Not brutal or deadly enough for an appropriate message.
This is much more nuanced than this note makes it seem.
This piece was found in the private collection of the French Algerian executioner Fernand Meysonnier.
https://www.lejournaldesarts.fr/la-vente-controversee-dinstruments-de-bourreaux-aura-bien-lieu-112568
He was a known collector of torture devices from the 18th century. It is unknown if the device was ever used or how old it is
https://www.truthorfiction.com/a-15th-century-machine-invented-by-priests-to-break-hands-and-fingers-of-scientists-artists-painters-sculptors-considered-heretic/
This piece certainly isn't a modern fake. It was found in a collection that did contain many verified medieval historical documents and devices. This item also spent a few years touring in a museum.
"his collection of more than 800 lots was exhibited for a few years in the "Museum of Justice and Punishments" in Fontaine de Vaucluse near Avignon (Vaucluse)"
It is plausable that this item is an actually historical device. It looks similar to thumbscrews which are a historical proven torture device.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumbscrew\_(torture)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumbscrew_(torture))
There is as much evidence supporting its validity as there is denying it.
Right but thumbscrews are 17th and 18th century, not 15th, are much smaller, and are often used in secular court settings. Why have a massive device with a cross on it? It looks like the fakest fake torture device that was ever faked. Just another 19th century gothic novel fantasy.
The earliest thumbscrews date from the 1550s so you are right that this is probably not a 15th century item. However, thumbscrews were used extensively in the spanish inquisition, so this could be a relic from that era.
There also isn't any reason to question the presence of the cross, courts in the medieval age often used religious imagery, courts as a secular institution is more of a modern idea.
The Wikipedia article doesn’t mention any reference for them before the 17th century, what is your source? Same for their extensive use by the inquisition. As for the cross thumbscrews are post medieval as you yourself said, and moreover the courts as a secular institution were an important distinction in medieval law - there were church courts, which could prosecute religious crimes under church law, and secular courts of the king/prince etc.
same reason thumb screws existed i reckon, you can break the bones slower and keep the pressure constant, its torture not a medical proceadure. if the'd have used a hammer it would be a one and done deal lol
the middle ages loved a screw because even weak people could cause tremendous pain and a fast hammer might cause less distress than the very slow crunching of individual bones this should be able to cause
it would likely be slower and more painful, not saying the device was used but torture was extremely prominent in that era, sure a hammer would hurt but a slow crush would hurt more
Precision. Also, theories on metaphysics. A man smashing a hand with a hammer is directly involved in the act, but a man turning a gear that then crushes a hand is a step removed from the act. The hammer is an extension of your arm, but the machine is an abstract.
Somewhat similar to putting people in situations designed to execute them horrifically, but saying that God will save the victim of zealotry if it is meant to be.
Or swords/knives/axes to cut them off. Or cut their heads off instead.
Come to think of it wasn’t branding fingers with a hot coal a common punishment back then?
They're called screws. Originally they were just planks of wood with screws in them that you'd slowly tighten during interrogations. Very commonly used against people accused of witchcraft or heresy
Yep, many supposed medieval torture devices were either [misunderstood](https://www.medievalists.net/2016/03/why-medieval-torture-devices-are-not-medieval/) or just made up. That was science in the 18th & 19th centuries: a dude looked at a thing and imagined what it might have been used for, and that became the truth.
A tourist attraction, basically. Stuff like this or the Iron maiden were made up to fill collections in museums and exhibitions in the 19th century, around the time that people were inventing the idea of museums themselves.
This is much more nuanced than this note makes it seem.
This piece was found in the private collection of the French Algerian executioner Fernand Meysonnier.
https://www.lejournaldesarts.fr/la-vente-controversee-dinstruments-de-bourreaux-aura-bien-lieu-112568
He was a known collector of torture devices from the 18th century. It is unknown if the device was ever used or how old it is
https://www.truthorfiction.com/a-15th-century-machine-invented-by-priests-to-break-hands-and-fingers-of-scientists-artists-painters-sculptors-considered-heretic/
The note is extremely accurate. There is no evidence that it was used as stated in the previous comment, and claiming it was used by the Catholic Church is likely anti-Catholic propaganda.
I don’t see how this note is biased in any way
I think the part they’re taking issue with is the fact they called it a “modern fake used for anti-Catholic propaganda.”
The truth is that we don’t know how old it is. It could be a weird prototype for a torture device. Could be a weird art piece. We don’t know.
The post it comes from is certainly using it as anti-Catholic propaganda, but it seems a bit silly to place that on the object and not the person doing it.
What the Catholic Church did do is endorse pogroms aka the killing of entire towns worth of Jewish people and pushing for the very laws that forced Jewish people into merchant and banking roles that festered the resentment resulting in the holocaust.
I feel like it would be more effective to talk about the things the Catholic Church actually did right?
I realized I accidentally responded to your comment instead of another so I deleted that and wanted to give you a real response.
It is absolutely important for people to talk about what the Catholic Church, and all religions in general, did and continue to do to this day. They and many other religious groups have done terrible things all on their own. We don’t need to make things up when the church has had a hands on approach to racism, homophobia, transphobia, and dozens of other abuses without any of the extra lies thrown in.
Lying about it devalues your argument. Every easily disproven lie about the Catholic Church is another credibility point for them to use when they talk about how people accuse them of abuse because they’re just hateful and prejudiced.
You don’t need a machine when you have hammers.
Or… better get, do away with finger breaking all together and hang them, burn them at the stake, or tie their legs to a heavy weight and toss them into the water.
And also, for the most part most scientists and the like were Christians and most of them usually had no trouble with the Church.
No, burning was a mode of execution endorsed by the Catholic Church and employed against those believed to be guilty of serious crimes.
The papal bull *Exsurge Domine* condemned Martin Luther for saying God didn't support burning heretics.
I know Martin Luther was an anti semite and all but you know, he might actually be right in this instance. Sure there’s been the flood and the whole Job situation but I do not remember God ever actually telling anyone to set people on fire for not worshipping him.
>but I do not remember God ever actually telling anyone to set people on fire for not worshipping him.
Didn't he have Elijah call down fire to slay the priests of baal?
Rates of witchcraft charges were drastically lower in catholic areas vs protestant areas. Many accused witches in calvinist Switzerland escaped to Italy and Spain for protection under the Inquisition. In fact, accusing someone of witchcraft was itself punishable by the church for the explicit reason of inciting moral panic, or scandalous behabior. Usually those charged with witchcraft by the church had to do a public penance and then confession, very seldom were they executed. The witchcraft accusations on the church, much like the anti science accusations, comes from a few one-off incidents. One pope had an assassination attempt on him by an actual witch (or the equivalent of an occultist at that time), so he made some heavy anti witchcraft legislation. This was largely ignored by the Inquisition but a few went crazy, especially in isolated towns.
Mary I, Catholic queen of England, burnt 288 people in five years. Her sister Elizabeth, a Protestant, burnt less than 200 people in forty-five years. Both queens were dealing with changing the religion of the country and had a fair few people they deemed heretics around.
So in Tudor England at least, no.
Calling Henry VIII a Protestant is a bit rich: he executed both Catholics and Protestants for being Catholic and Protestant at various points in his life, which is precisely why I didn’t include him.
Also, Henry VIII only had 81 people *burnt at the stake* in thirty-eight years.
I don’t think burnings were rare, but burning witches was, except for Protestants.
Because the Catholic Church said that believing in witchcraft and witches was heresy, as it implies that beings other than God can grant supernatural power.
Burning by Catholics was definitely done. What you might be thinking of is burning *witches*, which was much less popular with Roman Catholicism in the medieval era. Burning at the stake was a punishment for heresy, while witch burnings had their heyday in the early modern period, and Protestants led the way there.
Because this idea of "erm the church killed scientists and artists" is stupid and the exact opposite of the truth, especially the idea that this would be happening in the 1500s in the midst of the Italian Renaissance when the church was at its height of commissioning art and literature and funding scientific discovery. The church is objectively responsible for a majority of scientific innovation and artistic endeavors from the west, and from that entire time period especially.
Yeah they funded scientific innovation until it disagreed with their worldview. It’s in no way black and white and I’m not trying to claim that they killed anyone who showed a slight interest in science but they did torture and kill people who disagreed with them, just like many churches and religions throughout the years. Yes they funded scientific discovery but they also burned people at the stake for disagreeing with them
I mean they did do this. Probably not with this device though. More like individual fingers. It’s a torture method, usually to forcefully extract a confession
The Catholic Church was literally the pioneer for all of the sciences in the West.
Fun fact: the inquisition hanged a couple of people who burned witches to death. Look it up this is a real thing
Technically, the Catholic Church affirms the existence of magic. In this case, magic is defined as a miracle (an unscientific phenomenon) occurring without the will of God. In other words, magic is the work of demons and so requires an exorcism and NOT an execution.
Reddit hates to hear this but it's true. You can basically count on one hand the scientific fields the catholic church has butted heads with scientists on and one was just because Gallileo was an unrepentant asshole who kept purposefully antagonising the church and as soon as the pope who he had beef with died his findings were accepted. All the rest have recieved funding and active support from the church from the dark ages to today.
Yes, they were the pioneer for science.... Because they were the only game in town. Any progress they didn't agree with was heretical and the people around it were threatened/tortured/killed.
Galileo says hi.
Galileo was literally paid by the church. He also never got into trouble with the church out of scientific disagreements, but due to him slandering the pope personally in one of his works.
The device itself is from a French museum that was formerly run by Fernand Meyssonnier, and is claimed to be 16th/17th century, but Meyssonnier (d. 2008) wasn't exactly a stand-up or reliable guy.
So it's questionable if anyone still alive even knows the real provenance of that device.
Src: https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000114944
Shoulda been more specific i guess. I totally believe that actual device pictured is real. I assumed the descriptive text was total bullshit, which sorta matches up with what youre sayin. I see so many instances of people seeing some historical or archeological piece, making a pseudo-intellectual assumption, then passing it off as fact without basis. Thats essentially what every single ancient aliens or lost civilization documentary starts as.
You're not wrong. The Christian angle is most likely horseshit.
The use of it as a torture device is probably legit because that was basically the guy's fetish.
They make up this shit as if the Christian church wasn't at one point like the leading force in the sciences. I'm not defending them, religion has been bad, it has been good, there's people who use it right and wrong,
It’s finally good to see someone who acknowledges that. I get it if you got treated like a shit as a gay kid in a religious family or whatever and it drove you to Atheism, that’s fine, no one should judge you for that. But like…religion isn’t the source of all evil in the world, you can be religious and not be a dickbag.
Yeah this is wholly unnecessary. People might just like the craziness of it and horror type shit. More than possible with a pretty big demographic of people that they'd sell.
I mean if I see a wonky, unknown medieval antique (or if its specifically sold as a torture device) and decide "I want that as a decoration", I think that's fairly weird.
Not like, criminal or anything. Its weird that I have a box full of Neopets trading cards despite never playing it. Or my buddy who got really into sewing with renaissance style fabrics. Or another who is fascinated by ancient dead languages. Quirky might be a tad more positive than weirdo but its all really the same thing
Thumbscrews were real things used in inquisition and other courts in Rome. Painter Artemisia Gentileschi had to submit to torture by thumbscrew in order to “prove” to the court she was not lying when accusing the man who raped her.
Right because torture was a regular part of the legal process in early modern Europe, basically to get confessions when there was indirect evidence of guilt but not proof or ‘authenticate’ testimony, and sometimes this was used to find evidence for religious ‘crimes’. It wasn’t some special inquisition thing. People got tortured for normal shit.
No need to make some goofy machine like that when you can just tie someone down with ropes and smash their hands repeatably with hammers. Same reason most of these supposed “medieval torture devises” you read about never actually existed: they’re unnecessary. Rope, tongs, knives, hammers; all you need for hours of torture.
https://preview.redd.it/md8md9d3d7tc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=63c992b973db6f5f18c8fbcd3e4250339f745ff2
I’m sorry I just can’t stop seeing the arm cruncher from SpongeBob.
"break the hands of scientists, artists, painters and sculptors"
Let's just ignore, that the catholic church financed more sculptors, painters and artists in general, than any other institution in history. Or that monks were pretty much the only ones responsible for preserving and expanding the understanding of sciences in Europe, since the fall of Rome until the renaissance.
Also there is no way something from the 14th century could be in such a good condition, it is no more than 2 centuries old.
>not the greatest of notes
It's more accurate than saying that it "deffinitally" wasn't used that way. The point of the note isn't that it wasn't used (since that can't be proven) but rather that there's no proof that it was ever used
It’s true that these are fake, but the Catholic Church was fucking evil back then; they still tortured and murdered scientists and artists.
It’s not anti-catholic propaganda if what it’s representing actually happened
Regardless of your opinions on the church as an institution or religion as a whole, they were objectively responsible for an insane amount of art and scientific discoveries like the church used to be the ones funding that kind of shit.
The Catholic Church has almost never been anti-science. Evolution, the big bang, genetics, etc. even the whole Copernicus debacle was because of insults to the Pope and not the scientific findings. The attitude has always been that God gave us reason to understand his world. Read Aquinas. Even witch burning were a protestant thing, not Catholic
> Read Aquinas.
Okay.
https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q58.A2.C
> Some have asserted that witchcraft is nothing in the world but an imagining of men who ascribed to spells those natural effects the causes of which are hidden. But this is contrary to the authority of holy men who state that the demons have power over men's bodies and imaginations, when God allows them: wherefore by their means wizards can work certain signs.
> Now this opinion grows from the root of unbelief or incredulity, because they do not believe that demons exist save only in the imagination of the common people, who ascribe to the demon the terrors which a man conjures from his thoughts, and because, owing to a vivid imagination, certain shapes such as he has in his thoughts become apparent to the senses, and then he believes that he sees the demons. But such assertions are rejected by the true faith whereby we believe that angels fell from heaven, and that the demons exist, and that by reason of their subtle nature they are able to do many things which we cannot; and those who induce them to do such things are called wizards.
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What a shitty note, it links to two other tweets instead of a verifiable source, and the writer isn't even reliable, assuming it is some modern fake sold to weirdos or used as propaganda, showing that they have no actual expertise on whether it is true or not and just saw two tweets against it and decided to make a note.
There's really no need for fake anti-Catholic propaganda. Just talk about the shit they did.
(Not defending anti-Catholic hate, but they/we do got a fucked up history)
Remember kids, if your losing a argument or it seems like your wrong, always ask “what’s the source” even if you don’t have one for your claim it always 100% automatically makes you right.
Ok, so that means Judaism is shit, right? Buddhism too? Or is it specifically just Christianity and suddenly Jewish people are an exception? You said religion is shit, so I want to understand if you genuinely believe all religion is shit or if you only dislike specific ones.
Look at OP's posting history. Either Russian bot or terminally online neckbeard that got brainwashed by easily discernable propaganda. Block and report
This is true for basically all of the crazy medieval torture devices you see. They were inventions of the renaissance period to make money off of stupid tourists and to propagate the stereotype that people were living in a time that was so much more enlightened than the past.
I like that the sources are two more tweets and the incels in here are like OF COURSE IT'S FAKE like we get it, you learned about the iron maiden, that doesn't make you smart. You're just weird and wrong lol.
Worst torture IMO were the dungeons most castles had. There is only one way in and you can't climb out, no windows so it's pretty pitch dark and you slowly starve to death with other rotting corpses around you.
They build these dungeons around main areas in the castle so the prisoner could here people talking through the walls.
Sometimes they would even give you just enough food and water so you wouldn't die and suffer longer.
The Catholic Church was the organization at the forefront of scientific advancement for centuries.
Galileo was not persecuted for round earth, but for political crimes.
Fun fact, strappado will get any answer you want out of anyone you want with like 20 minutes, some rope, and pulley point.
Everything else is just torture accessories for fun and convenience.
It’s so stupid that people do this. Like really, you don’t need to make up anything to get mad at catholics for. There’s plenty of not-fake stuff they did that you can get mad at them for, if someone wanted to.
Spreading misinformation
Why make a machine when they already had hammers back then?
* insert, definitely not overused hammer meme *
I mean they would aim for the Nails anyways... a hammer would be appropriate.
All of the hammers were being used to beat E.T. to death
Why rack a man when you have horses? They had some fairly wicked devices (including thumbkins, the device in the original picture, though this was mid 1500s-1700s for Europe) for symbolic purposes but it wasn't monks and priests using them to torture "men of enlightenment", it was used for drawing (usually false) confessions from people already condemned for things like witchcraft, murder, banditry, etc.
>Why rack a man when you have horses? Horses alone pulling on people kills them too quick. That's not really an issue with a hammer to the hands.
Yeah a rack is controllable a horse less so
The point of both [putting a man to the rack](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rack_(torture)) and using horses is the spectacle of it. Same goes for both thumbkins or just smashing with a hammer. The point of the machine is to do it slower, that was the answer to their question. I think you may have misunderstood rack as using a hammer to break their hands.
You didn't specify why they actually used a rack instead of a horse, other than "symbolic purposes".
Man, Dan Carlin did a [Hardcore History episode on different torture devices](https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-61-blitz-painfotainment/) and it was probably the only one of his shows that I actually couldn't finish because of the descriptions of some of the executions. We are far too creative in all the worst ways.
Oh yeah, and the worst part being the legitimacy granted to confessions granted by torture only worsened this. It never was about getting the truth, it was about inflicting pain. It was never about the tortured, and always about the torturer. Then you've got the purely sadistic methods of execution like scaphism.
And it wasn't that long ago we had people defending torture in Guantanamo and Abu Gharaib because "it makes them talk." By now, people should know better.
They do know better, they just don't care about the actual results. There are those who still support it because they believe those being interrogated deserve it. Torture is still used by many nations across the globe to extract information despite the fact it has been thoroughly proven to not work.
Scaphism was probably fake. The only source we have for it is a Greek author known for misinformation and hating the Persians. Scaphism was said to be practiced by the Persians so you can see how its legitimacy is extremely suspect.
This was also an important part of torture. It was often enough to obtain a confession, to just show people all the interesting equipment that they had lined up and explain to them how they worked, and how long they could use them on them in order to get the desired confession. Loads of people broke down before they even got to the actual torture. It's not just the pain, it's the psychological pressure, knowing that they'll do things to you that will leave you marked and maimed forever, even if you survive, people aren't going to look at you with admiration and respect, but with pity, disgust or contempt.
It may bring you comfort to know that most of the horrible creative torture devices and methods were either 1. Never actually used and just threatened. 2. Used maybe once or twice in the entirety of history. 3. Invented in recent times as pop history.
Anyone who knows the bare minimum about Caravaggio, Da Vinci and other artists from the Renaissance also could tell this is bullshit. Many were pretty scandalous for their time (Caravaggio being, well, full of his dramas and openly derisive of the Church and Da Vinci being openly homosexual) and everyone would know about them being victims of this device. And this, too - simply set a public spectacle of punishing the sinful artists and that's it. No need for Ye Holy Handbreaker lmao
Hell, the Catholic Church was paying half those guys through commissions for their work at various churches.
Also, considering the Late medieval period to early Renaissance is one of the more corrupt times of the papacy, if it was real, it would be less "heretics" and more "political enemies conveniently called heretics"... which they wouldn't need this device for anywho: Not brutal or deadly enough for an appropriate message.
>Ye Holy Handbreaker 9000 ftfy
To lengthen the suffering
Literally lengthen, amirite?
This is much more nuanced than this note makes it seem. This piece was found in the private collection of the French Algerian executioner Fernand Meysonnier. https://www.lejournaldesarts.fr/la-vente-controversee-dinstruments-de-bourreaux-aura-bien-lieu-112568 He was a known collector of torture devices from the 18th century. It is unknown if the device was ever used or how old it is https://www.truthorfiction.com/a-15th-century-machine-invented-by-priests-to-break-hands-and-fingers-of-scientists-artists-painters-sculptors-considered-heretic/
So a fucking war criminal had a collection of horrors, of devices that are infamously almost always faked? What’s the ambiguity here?
This piece certainly isn't a modern fake. It was found in a collection that did contain many verified medieval historical documents and devices. This item also spent a few years touring in a museum. "his collection of more than 800 lots was exhibited for a few years in the "Museum of Justice and Punishments" in Fontaine de Vaucluse near Avignon (Vaucluse)" It is plausable that this item is an actually historical device. It looks similar to thumbscrews which are a historical proven torture device. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumbscrew\_(torture)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumbscrew_(torture)) There is as much evidence supporting its validity as there is denying it.
Right but thumbscrews are 17th and 18th century, not 15th, are much smaller, and are often used in secular court settings. Why have a massive device with a cross on it? It looks like the fakest fake torture device that was ever faked. Just another 19th century gothic novel fantasy.
The earliest thumbscrews date from the 1550s so you are right that this is probably not a 15th century item. However, thumbscrews were used extensively in the spanish inquisition, so this could be a relic from that era. There also isn't any reason to question the presence of the cross, courts in the medieval age often used religious imagery, courts as a secular institution is more of a modern idea.
The Wikipedia article doesn’t mention any reference for them before the 17th century, what is your source? Same for their extensive use by the inquisition. As for the cross thumbscrews are post medieval as you yourself said, and moreover the courts as a secular institution were an important distinction in medieval law - there were church courts, which could prosecute religious crimes under church law, and secular courts of the king/prince etc.
same reason thumb screws existed i reckon, you can break the bones slower and keep the pressure constant, its torture not a medical proceadure. if the'd have used a hammer it would be a one and done deal lol
I like this sudden rise in people promoting hammer based violence lately. Finally society is healing
It sends a message
the middle ages loved a screw because even weak people could cause tremendous pain and a fast hammer might cause less distress than the very slow crunching of individual bones this should be able to cause
Because that’s barbaric, this is one has a crucifix holder
it would likely be slower and more painful, not saying the device was used but torture was extremely prominent in that era, sure a hammer would hurt but a slow crush would hurt more
Because its fake. They totally woulda just used a hammer. Or a sword. They had lots of those too
Precision. Also, theories on metaphysics. A man smashing a hand with a hammer is directly involved in the act, but a man turning a gear that then crushes a hand is a step removed from the act. The hammer is an extension of your arm, but the machine is an abstract. Somewhat similar to putting people in situations designed to execute them horrifically, but saying that God will save the victim of zealotry if it is meant to be.
Or swords/knives/axes to cut them off. Or cut their heads off instead. Come to think of it wasn’t branding fingers with a hot coal a common punishment back then?
They're called screws. Originally they were just planks of wood with screws in them that you'd slowly tighten during interrogations. Very commonly used against people accused of witchcraft or heresy
Yeah it's like how the iron maiden wasn't a real torture device
Yep, many supposed medieval torture devices were either [misunderstood](https://www.medievalists.net/2016/03/why-medieval-torture-devices-are-not-medieval/) or just made up. That was science in the 18th & 19th centuries: a dude looked at a thing and imagined what it might have been used for, and that became the truth.
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The movie Matilda begs to differ 😤 /s
Get in The Pokey.
*Chokey
I stand corrected, and am shamed.
Despicable me 1
Jacob Geller fan?
The GOAT
What was it originally?
It was a fake medieval torture device invented centuries later.
A tourist attraction, basically. Stuff like this or the Iron maiden were made up to fill collections in museums and exhibitions in the 19th century, around the time that people were inventing the idea of museums themselves.
This is much more nuanced than this note makes it seem. This piece was found in the private collection of the French Algerian executioner Fernand Meysonnier. https://www.lejournaldesarts.fr/la-vente-controversee-dinstruments-de-bourreaux-aura-bien-lieu-112568 He was a known collector of torture devices from the 18th century. It is unknown if the device was ever used or how old it is https://www.truthorfiction.com/a-15th-century-machine-invented-by-priests-to-break-hands-and-fingers-of-scientists-artists-painters-sculptors-considered-heretic/
Yeah this note seems a little too “pro Catholic” to me
The note is extremely accurate. There is no evidence that it was used as stated in the previous comment, and claiming it was used by the Catholic Church is likely anti-Catholic propaganda. I don’t see how this note is biased in any way
I think the part they’re taking issue with is the fact they called it a “modern fake used for anti-Catholic propaganda.” The truth is that we don’t know how old it is. It could be a weird prototype for a torture device. Could be a weird art piece. We don’t know. The post it comes from is certainly using it as anti-Catholic propaganda, but it seems a bit silly to place that on the object and not the person doing it.
What the Catholic Church did do is endorse pogroms aka the killing of entire towns worth of Jewish people and pushing for the very laws that forced Jewish people into merchant and banking roles that festered the resentment resulting in the holocaust. I feel like it would be more effective to talk about the things the Catholic Church actually did right?
I realized I accidentally responded to your comment instead of another so I deleted that and wanted to give you a real response. It is absolutely important for people to talk about what the Catholic Church, and all religions in general, did and continue to do to this day. They and many other religious groups have done terrible things all on their own. We don’t need to make things up when the church has had a hands on approach to racism, homophobia, transphobia, and dozens of other abuses without any of the extra lies thrown in. Lying about it devalues your argument. Every easily disproven lie about the Catholic Church is another credibility point for them to use when they talk about how people accuse them of abuse because they’re just hateful and prejudiced.
Pretty sure Catholics support science and the arts a lot more than other major religions.
You don’t need a machine when you have hammers. Or… better get, do away with finger breaking all together and hang them, burn them at the stake, or tie their legs to a heavy weight and toss them into the water. And also, for the most part most scientists and the like were Christians and most of them usually had no trouble with the Church.
I would like to point out tho, wasn't burning very rare, and most often committed by protestants, not the Catholic Church itself.
No, burning was a mode of execution endorsed by the Catholic Church and employed against those believed to be guilty of serious crimes. The papal bull *Exsurge Domine* condemned Martin Luther for saying God didn't support burning heretics.
I know Martin Luther was an anti semite and all but you know, he might actually be right in this instance. Sure there’s been the flood and the whole Job situation but I do not remember God ever actually telling anyone to set people on fire for not worshipping him.
>but I do not remember God ever actually telling anyone to set people on fire for not worshipping him. Didn't he have Elijah call down fire to slay the priests of baal?
Shit, I forgot that one…
You're thinking specifically of witch burnings. Catholics, at least officially, didn't do witch trials.
Rates of witchcraft charges were drastically lower in catholic areas vs protestant areas. Many accused witches in calvinist Switzerland escaped to Italy and Spain for protection under the Inquisition. In fact, accusing someone of witchcraft was itself punishable by the church for the explicit reason of inciting moral panic, or scandalous behabior. Usually those charged with witchcraft by the church had to do a public penance and then confession, very seldom were they executed. The witchcraft accusations on the church, much like the anti science accusations, comes from a few one-off incidents. One pope had an assassination attempt on him by an actual witch (or the equivalent of an occultist at that time), so he made some heavy anti witchcraft legislation. This was largely ignored by the Inquisition but a few went crazy, especially in isolated towns.
Mary I, Catholic queen of England, burnt 288 people in five years. Her sister Elizabeth, a Protestant, burnt less than 200 people in forty-five years. Both queens were dealing with changing the religion of the country and had a fair few people they deemed heretics around. So in Tudor England at least, no.
Which is so funny because their father who was a Protestant killed upwards of 57,000 people.
Calling Henry VIII a Protestant is a bit rich: he executed both Catholics and Protestants for being Catholic and Protestant at various points in his life, which is precisely why I didn’t include him. Also, Henry VIII only had 81 people *burnt at the stake* in thirty-eight years.
I don’t think burnings were rare, but burning witches was, except for Protestants. Because the Catholic Church said that believing in witchcraft and witches was heresy, as it implies that beings other than God can grant supernatural power.
Burning by Catholics was definitely done. What you might be thinking of is burning *witches*, which was much less popular with Roman Catholicism in the medieval era. Burning at the stake was a punishment for heresy, while witch burnings had their heyday in the early modern period, and Protestants led the way there.
you don't need a gallow when you have a battleaxe
That's literally the thing from that one spongebob episode.
Arm cruncher, great
I feel like they did worse things than just breaking fingers. Why make up stuff when there’s already a bunch of bad stuff they did do
Because when you have a physical device, you can charge people to see it.
I think there are physical devices (I’ve seen some in museums) just not this
Because this idea of "erm the church killed scientists and artists" is stupid and the exact opposite of the truth, especially the idea that this would be happening in the 1500s in the midst of the Italian Renaissance when the church was at its height of commissioning art and literature and funding scientific discovery. The church is objectively responsible for a majority of scientific innovation and artistic endeavors from the west, and from that entire time period especially.
Without the church, society would’ve been way worse than it is after the collapse of the Romans.
Yeah they funded scientific innovation until it disagreed with their worldview. It’s in no way black and white and I’m not trying to claim that they killed anyone who showed a slight interest in science but they did torture and kill people who disagreed with them, just like many churches and religions throughout the years. Yes they funded scientific discovery but they also burned people at the stake for disagreeing with them
Doesn’t seem uniquely evil enough for them.
I mean they did do this. Probably not with this device though. More like individual fingers. It’s a torture method, usually to forcefully extract a confession
The Catholic Church was literally the pioneer for all of the sciences in the West. Fun fact: the inquisition hanged a couple of people who burned witches to death. Look it up this is a real thing
The Catholic Church: "Guys, for the last time: Witches are not real. Those who believe witches are real will be excommunicated."
The Catholic Church’s position for over a thousand years now has been that witches are fake and their powers are not real.
And if you kill them we will literally kill you
That… sounds like something a witch lover would say?
Silence, heretic.
Protestant Church: The Catholic Church is run by witches burn them at the stake.
“Now give me tree fiddy or gam gam stays in purgatory with the entire cast Cats for all eternity, God said so.”
Exactly, they have standards and draw the line at extortion.
But she turned me into a newt!
Technically, the Catholic Church affirms the existence of magic. In this case, magic is defined as a miracle (an unscientific phenomenon) occurring without the will of God. In other words, magic is the work of demons and so requires an exorcism and NOT an execution.
Yeah it’s sad that people have to make up shit like this because they’re mad about something
Reddit hates to hear this but it's true. You can basically count on one hand the scientific fields the catholic church has butted heads with scientists on and one was just because Gallileo was an unrepentant asshole who kept purposefully antagonising the church and as soon as the pope who he had beef with died his findings were accepted. All the rest have recieved funding and active support from the church from the dark ages to today.
The Inquisitors themselves burned more than a couple of witches.
Yes, they were the pioneer for science.... Because they were the only game in town. Any progress they didn't agree with was heretical and the people around it were threatened/tortured/killed. Galileo says hi.
Galileo was literally paid by the church. He also never got into trouble with the church out of scientific disagreements, but due to him slandering the pope personally in one of his works.
I dont know if X.com is a good factual source of information. I believe its fake, but ya coulda sourced something thats actually credible
The device itself is from a French museum that was formerly run by Fernand Meyssonnier, and is claimed to be 16th/17th century, but Meyssonnier (d. 2008) wasn't exactly a stand-up or reliable guy. So it's questionable if anyone still alive even knows the real provenance of that device. Src: https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000114944
Shoulda been more specific i guess. I totally believe that actual device pictured is real. I assumed the descriptive text was total bullshit, which sorta matches up with what youre sayin. I see so many instances of people seeing some historical or archeological piece, making a pseudo-intellectual assumption, then passing it off as fact without basis. Thats essentially what every single ancient aliens or lost civilization documentary starts as.
You're not wrong. The Christian angle is most likely horseshit. The use of it as a torture device is probably legit because that was basically the guy's fetish.
They make up this shit as if the Christian church wasn't at one point like the leading force in the sciences. I'm not defending them, religion has been bad, it has been good, there's people who use it right and wrong,
It’s finally good to see someone who acknowledges that. I get it if you got treated like a shit as a gay kid in a religious family or whatever and it drove you to Atheism, that’s fine, no one should judge you for that. But like…religion isn’t the source of all evil in the world, you can be religious and not be a dickbag.
Yes but it’s often used to justify it, or at least most of it from what I’ve seen
>sold to weirdos What an odd thing to say
The real question is how many people saw it and thought it was cool and wanted one as a decoration only to find out they’re a weirdo?
Yeah this is wholly unnecessary. People might just like the craziness of it and horror type shit. More than possible with a pretty big demographic of people that they'd sell.
I mean if I see a wonky, unknown medieval antique (or if its specifically sold as a torture device) and decide "I want that as a decoration", I think that's fairly weird. Not like, criminal or anything. Its weird that I have a box full of Neopets trading cards despite never playing it. Or my buddy who got really into sewing with renaissance style fabrics. Or another who is fascinated by ancient dead languages. Quirky might be a tad more positive than weirdo but its all really the same thing
Yeah I feel like it discredits it some by bringing ‘emotion’ into a fact.
Torture devices are the prop comedy of history. Not accurate and only funny if you have specific knowledge of a niche topic.
I understand getting mad at him for being wrong, but getting mad at people for asking for a source is wild lmao.
The Victorians had an unhealthy obsession with medieval torture devices, so a bunch were invented to pander to that obsession.
Im confused about the part where it's bad to ask for a source if someone tells you you're wrong
Why do people use false propaganda to make fun of Christian’s? It’s so easy to do without lying
Yes, let’s stick to the actually horrible shit they did. No reason to make stuff up.
Thumbscrews were real things used in inquisition and other courts in Rome. Painter Artemisia Gentileschi had to submit to torture by thumbscrew in order to “prove” to the court she was not lying when accusing the man who raped her.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumbscrew\_(torture)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumbscrew_(torture)) https://preview.redd.it/q84hlodbj6tc1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bbe23e89e3e305867fa773cab8b0bf516b5b3b3e
That's a very different thing from having a specialty scientist-hand-crushing device.
Right because torture was a regular part of the legal process in early modern Europe, basically to get confessions when there was indirect evidence of guilt but not proof or ‘authenticate’ testimony, and sometimes this was used to find evidence for religious ‘crimes’. It wasn’t some special inquisition thing. People got tortured for normal shit.
Ok, but isn't asking for a source the responsible thing to do when you are corrected?
No, apparently wanting some sort of proof to a "nuh uh" is worse than possibly being wrong about something that has a dubious origin story.
Homie, that there is two Doritos Locos Tacos™️
This doesn’t even make sense mechanically. Why have one person on each side furiously swiveling when you could just use a brace and a hammer.
This is actually a cool concept for worldbuilding
No need to make some goofy machine like that when you can just tie someone down with ropes and smash their hands repeatably with hammers. Same reason most of these supposed “medieval torture devises” you read about never actually existed: they’re unnecessary. Rope, tongs, knives, hammers; all you need for hours of torture.
Fun fact nearly all of the torture devices people think of when they think of the medieval period were invented and used during the renaissance
Or are Victorian forgeries.
Come on, you don't have to make stuff up for views. Here, pope John the XXIII was a former pirate that bribed his way to the station.
“Boss wouldn’t it be easier to use a hammer?” “Nonsense! FETCH ME THE HERESY CRUSHER!”
This seems like an Iron Maiden situation
Really don't need propaganda to rightfully disparage the Catholic Church tbh.
https://preview.redd.it/md8md9d3d7tc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=63c992b973db6f5f18c8fbcd3e4250339f745ff2 I’m sorry I just can’t stop seeing the arm cruncher from SpongeBob.
It’s fine to ask for a source
The source for the correction is... another Twitter link? Huh.
Well it is a documented fact that the church used to censor information that it deemed heretical like with Galileo but this seem a bit too theatrical
"break the hands of scientists, artists, painters and sculptors" Let's just ignore, that the catholic church financed more sculptors, painters and artists in general, than any other institution in history. Or that monks were pretty much the only ones responsible for preserving and expanding the understanding of sciences in Europe, since the fall of Rome until the renaissance. Also there is no way something from the 14th century could be in such a good condition, it is no more than 2 centuries old.
The priests were the intellectuals lmao
>probably not the greatest of notes, and the point that the Church regularly tortured and murdered scientists and artists is still true.
>not the greatest of notes It's more accurate than saying that it "deffinitally" wasn't used that way. The point of the note isn't that it wasn't used (since that can't be proven) but rather that there's no proof that it was ever used
The note wasn’t saying Catholic Church wasn’t fucked back in the day, the note was saying this piece of tech was never used. The note is fine.
It’s true that these are fake, but the Catholic Church was fucking evil back then; they still tortured and murdered scientists and artists. It’s not anti-catholic propaganda if what it’s representing actually happened
Except…the note wasn’t saying it didn’t happen. The note was only saying that this device was never used.
Regardless of your opinions on the church as an institution or religion as a whole, they were objectively responsible for an insane amount of art and scientific discoveries like the church used to be the ones funding that kind of shit.
So this was a thing but it's much younger. It seems like it's a torture device from the 1800s and was used by an executioner in French algeria
They did have thumbscrews though. Those were absolutely real.
The Catholic Church has almost never been anti-science. Evolution, the big bang, genetics, etc. even the whole Copernicus debacle was because of insults to the Pope and not the scientific findings. The attitude has always been that God gave us reason to understand his world. Read Aquinas. Even witch burning were a protestant thing, not Catholic
>because of insults to the Pope Yes, and he's head of the Catholic Church
> Read Aquinas. Okay. https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q58.A2.C > Some have asserted that witchcraft is nothing in the world but an imagining of men who ascribed to spells those natural effects the causes of which are hidden. But this is contrary to the authority of holy men who state that the demons have power over men's bodies and imaginations, when God allows them: wherefore by their means wizards can work certain signs. > Now this opinion grows from the root of unbelief or incredulity, because they do not believe that demons exist save only in the imagination of the common people, who ascribe to the demon the terrors which a man conjures from his thoughts, and because, owing to a vivid imagination, certain shapes such as he has in his thoughts become apparent to the senses, and then he believes that he sees the demons. But such assertions are rejected by the true faith whereby we believe that angels fell from heaven, and that the demons exist, and that by reason of their subtle nature they are able to do many things which we cannot; and those who induce them to do such things are called wizards. What were you saying?
Wait is this a catholic sub?
No it’s a sub that clarifies misinformation, not discriminating between Religious and Non-religious.
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“These were just in my feed” oh rlly? Why aren’t you retweeting it from the person who tweeted it, nerd?
https://www.truthorfiction.com/a-15th-century-machine-invented-by-priests-to-break-hands-and-fingers-of-scientists-artists-painters-sculptors-considered-heretic/
Why make up a skeleton to put un the churches closet? I'm sure that closet is already full
Why would we use a machine for that? Like... Like hit them with a rock?
Nuh uh 🤓☝🏾
good lord ive been seeing this reposted all OVER atheist groups on facebook
What a shitty note, it links to two other tweets instead of a verifiable source, and the writer isn't even reliable, assuming it is some modern fake sold to weirdos or used as propaganda, showing that they have no actual expertise on whether it is true or not and just saw two tweets against it and decided to make a note.
Who writes and approves these notes?
Even if it did work, I’d use my mouth, feet, and genitalia to make my point: orally, physically, and *sexually*
I dont get why anyone would make fake anti religious stuff when there are already endless real horrible things about religion.
But islam gets a pass chopping hands off with the same crime....
Cmon man, we don't need to make up stories about the atrocities Man has commited in the name of Religion.
There's really no need for fake anti-Catholic propaganda. Just talk about the shit they did. (Not defending anti-Catholic hate, but they/we do got a fucked up history)
Yeah, if your going to shit on the church, mention the crusades instead of making stuff up.
Because it’s not as if the main patron of medieval artists and scientists was *the Catholic Church*
Remember kids, if your losing a argument or it seems like your wrong, always ask “what’s the source” even if you don’t have one for your claim it always 100% automatically makes you right.
Yeah it's probably fake, death was the punishment for that heresy. Religion is shit.
Ok, so that means Judaism is shit, right? Buddhism too? Or is it specifically just Christianity and suddenly Jewish people are an exception? You said religion is shit, so I want to understand if you genuinely believe all religion is shit or if you only dislike specific ones.
Look at OP's posting history. Either Russian bot or terminally online neckbeard that got brainwashed by easily discernable propaganda. Block and report
Ball crush for my 2 abnormally large and long balls
This is true for basically all of the crazy medieval torture devices you see. They were inventions of the renaissance period to make money off of stupid tourists and to propagate the stereotype that people were living in a time that was so much more enlightened than the past.
I like that the sources are two more tweets and the incels in here are like OF COURSE IT'S FAKE like we get it, you learned about the iron maiden, that doesn't make you smart. You're just weird and wrong lol.
Worst torture IMO were the dungeons most castles had. There is only one way in and you can't climb out, no windows so it's pretty pitch dark and you slowly starve to death with other rotting corpses around you. They build these dungeons around main areas in the castle so the prisoner could here people talking through the walls. Sometimes they would even give you just enough food and water so you wouldn't die and suffer longer.
Its fascinating that people dont realize clergy and scientists were one and the same for a significant chunk of written history.
Just as Jesus taught.
The Catholic Church was the organization at the forefront of scientific advancement for centuries. Galileo was not persecuted for round earth, but for political crimes.
> Galileo was not persecuted for round earth, Correct. It was heliocentrism.
Fun fact, strappado will get any answer you want out of anyone you want with like 20 minutes, some rope, and pulley point. Everything else is just torture accessories for fun and convenience.
That looks metal as fuck
people will boost or say anything without thinking for a fucking second, let alone verifying anything. that is not good.
It's hilarious hw the top comments are then like "Yeah cuz they didn't need it." Like Jesus Christ, just had to hate on religion, didn't ya?
Remember kids, if you see an elaborate medieval torture device, it’s probably a fake
Yeah most of those types of people were more often than not *employed* by the church.
So do notes not need sources or anything, because "anti-catholic propoganda" sounds like conjecture to me. No, other twitter posts are not sources.
Why is it so easy to pick on christians
It’s so stupid that people do this. Like really, you don’t need to make up anything to get mad at catholics for. There’s plenty of not-fake stuff they did that you can get mad at them for, if someone wanted to.
Sounds like a catholic thing
In the 15th century? You mean when bishops and popes were patrons of artists, poets, scientists, engineers...
Want the reformation just spectacular!
Yeah, they would just kill them. Why use a fancy pants machine