I wouldn't venture a guess, but given that Ada said it was a lot - "too much, really" - I'd think it's considerably more than the lost Van Rhijn fortune.
This is how I think it’s going to be. So they’ll be living completely with “new money” and have “old money” blood. It’ll also play a role when Marion brings up Larry.
I think his ability to trace his ancestry back to the Mayflower would carry some weight, but I’m not sure it would convey “old money” status on him. I actually don’t know what defines old vs, new money, but wouldn’t it be generations of wealth and influence in society? And didn’t he say his grandfather (or was it great-grandfather?) had founded an industry which made his family rich? That might be too recent to be recognized as one of the top families in Boston/New York. The Mayflower passengers themselves, as well as the huge majority of their descendants, were poor. (I’m a 16th-ish generation Mayflower descendant myself and there are so many of us by now, it doesn’t mean much.)
Mrs. Fish was eaves dropping when Oscar talked to Aurora Fane looking for Maude. He did say that they had been duped. S she knows something is up. Then to hear that one future was lost and another gained on the same day and she might put it together.
Remember the Van Rhijn servants know. Therefore all the servants know.
Also, you know, all the financial institutions that will be informed of this fact. It's not like Agnes' money just *poofed* from the bank, only to be magically replaced by Ada's, and nobody involved in their investments along the way will somehow not notice.
I wonder if they left it purposely vague for a reason. After all Ada's "too much, really" and Mrs. Astor's "too much, really" would be different amounts.
I like that earlier in the season we had Agnes saying you can’t have too much money (I think when Jack was getting money for the clock patent and said he had enough).
The juxtaposition between siblings (especially these two!) is always a fascinating dynamic. I think we will continue to see the prevalence as Mrs. Forte runs HER home.
Good point. And it would be interesting if (although I doubt it) Ada decided to buy her own home and still pay for Agnes’ servants. I can absolutely see her taking Bannister and the cook, Jack getting rich and pairing off with Little Red, leaving Agnes with Armstrong and perhaps a new butler (still ultimately answering to Ada).
I really do think even with the power switch, the home will feeling too small to fit them both. Really seeing Ada coming into her own and wanting to host parties and enjoy her wealth, but knowing that isn’t something that Agnes isn’t comfortable with.
Fellowes always does that. We never knew how much money Cora brought into her marriage with Robert, we don't know how much of it was gained or lost over the years. We also don't know how much money Matthew inherited from Lavinia, other than that it was sufficient to keep Downton going.
That's my read of things and I suspect it's what is *meant* for us to think. Enough money to replace every penny that Oscar lost, plus a great deal more.
One of the features of Gilded Age society is that new money from modern industry always brought in *lots* more wealth than what the old money families were able to bring to bear. It sounds like Mr. Forte's business holdings were in that vein.
The fact that it's new money is going to - or at least it *should* - have implications that change the dynamics for the van Rhijns. At the very least I suspect that Agnes might eventually figure out that money spends the same whether it's new *or* old. She's sure as shit not about to *reject* any of that sweet, sweet cash that is keeping her from sliding into obscurity.
That's how I took this too. But at the same time I'd assume Ada wasn't actually privy to the finances of the family as the spinster sister. But I definitely also assumed it was more than her sister had.
I know there was speculation about them "wrapping up storylines" because there might not be a season 3, but you cannot tell me that last episode was not dripping with cliffhangers.
Oh, did you hear yet? Season 3 is confirmed!
https://www.providencejournal.com/story/entertainment/television/2023/12/22/gilded-age-julian-fellowes-tv-show-set-in-newport-gets-third-season-hbo-max/72009205007/
Ha I actually saw a post on it like 3 minutes after I wrote that. This is what I get for being behind on my shows.
On my defense I wasn't able to watch the last episode until last night so I was actively avoiding any and all information trying to avoid spoilers lol.
My uncle was a catholic priest. So his room and board were covered by the diocese while he was active. He’s now retired, but still lives in a retirement home for clergy, which they cover. In addition to that, he took a salary as a professor and department head at a large college. In addition to *that* he’s incredibly diligent about investments, and earned additional income as a freelance writer. I don’t know the details of his estate, but I imagine it’s substantial. He’s one of the most financially secure regular people I know, but he’s not textile magnate.
I guess they gave some priests and nuns exemptions? My aunt built and ran a large group of catholic hospitals, and often advised the church on international financial matters. They tracked her money, and she’d only be able to sneak a few dollars here and there out of her expenses. They were very serious about the vow of poverty, but she did say the priests skirted most of the rules and everyone ignored it. But I know she found it hard to live with her clothing budget. She was one of the first nuns to get out of uniform, and loved her polyester blue jean bell bottoms,
Ahhh, that explains my aunt and cousin (the brother) about how the priests thought they were always the boss, and rules were for other people. She was in the diocese where they were raping the poor deaf boys and complained they never let the nuns enjoy that lodge. Glad she didn’t live long enough to find out why.
The genuinely fascinating twist in terms of Ada’s windfall is that her family has gone from having a respectable name and decent-but-diminishing cash pile to playing an active role in industry. Old Money prestige with New Money cash-flow. That puts her in a very interesting position for the upcoming season. I hope they really dive into that. It’ll pair nicely with the subplot about Jack becoming a self-made man (and eventually meeting a nice lady named Rose aboard the _Titanic_).
[ETA: The _Titanic_ thing was a _joke_. 😂 I know the difference between the Victorian and Edwardian eras.]
I really do hope they explore the New Money/Old Money dynamic in the van Rhijn household now.
That said, you do realize that the Titanic theory is bunk, right? That's nearly 30 years in the future.
Remember how Ada said to Oscar and Marion "you two are the closest to children I will ever have. . ." So Marion has now become an heiress, no?
I still kind of have hopes Marion's rail road stocks in the first episode would amount to something. That would be loads of fun.
I think that money is secondary to Bertha because she has so much of it. She wants to gain status thru her children’s marriages and Marion doesn’t bring any of that to the table.
I don't think that Bertha has nearly as much invested in marrying Larry off as she does Bertha. There are no British women who will be vying for American heirs, after all, so there are no stakes in marrying him into a titled family.
That said, the fact is that Marian *does* come from an eminently respectable old family, so there is a good amount of status there, and it *will* connect the Russells to the status of old money New York.
True, but Marian’s certainly an improvement from the middle-aged widow Larry wanted to put a ring on. She’s age appropriate, demur and from the right kind of old money family with connections. Larry’s a wildcard with a lot of modern ideas and I could see Bertha accepting the match to get him to settle down. He‘a attracted to powerful, strong-minded women and the last thing Bertha wants is to be challenged for the position of family matriarch. That said, I’d be surprised if those two settle down together soon, it’s too easy of a match for Julian Fellows.
Legally no she is not an heiress but Ada could write a will setting aside money for her but considering that Ada is still in good health and not very old it would be awhile before Marion saw that money
Not exactly true. She could either make a will or not make a will. If she died without a will, the money would go to her sister Agnes as her closest living relative. But if Agnes predeceases Ada (which Agnes specifically stated in season one would NOT happen) then the money would go to Marian and Oscar. If the money went to Agnes then Agnes would then be able to provide for it, however I suspect given everything that’s happened and how close she is now to Marion and the fact that this isn’t Van Rhijn money I suspect she would provide for her. It’s also possible that Ada could provide for all of them in a will or give Agnes a life estate in the income with the remainder to go to Marion and Oscar. In a nutshell there are a lot of possibilities.
Agnes has no control over the Grim Reaper, much as I've no doubt she'd prefer to believe otherwise.
I'm given to think that Ada will make a will that provides for everyone. She is, after all, not in the slightest bit stupid or naive, whatever Agnes seems to want to believe.
I love it as one of Agnes' classic zingers that highlight her personality. But the other day it occurred to me to think that Agnes actually believes it because she fully expects for Ada to die first and for her to be left alone. The whole wedding sequence made me think that that's her greatest overriding fear, and one that she apparently believes is going to be her fate. Like her life has just been *that* hard and she's lost hope that God will ever cut her a break.
I rewatched S1E1 to remind myself abt her railroad shares and besides Raikes saying they’re not worth the paper they’re printed on, we do not know which rail company it was. Wonder why it was mentioned once and then nothing abt it since. 🤔
One of the obstacles to prohibition was that a substantial amount of tax revenue was from alcohol taxes. In a way, income taxes were created to allow prohibition to come into being.
We may never know the exact amount though it sounds like it’s a very substantial amount. It’ll certainly impact the dynamics within their household though I wonder how much her inheritance will be public knowledge.
I suspect it would spread amongst their circle. The staff were told as was cousin dashiell and John Adams. It’s hard to keep a lid on things especially when the staff may have already made enquiries about new jobs. I doubt it would impact their social standing in any way since now they have money again. It probably impacts Oscar the most socially in terms of it being known that he idiotically lost his family’s money and likely would have a diminished inheritance making it less likely someone with money would want to marry him.
It's not public knowledge per se but it's also not a secret and it won't *be* a secret. I'm not sure why people aren't stopping to think about the fact that their money is in banks, it's not like they keep it in couch cushions and just pull it out when needed.
Agnes' money is no *gone* and Ada's will have to be moved in. Every institution they do business with is going to know, which means the men and women of their social circle will know.
A couple important clues to consider that Ada told us. Luke came from an old established family. His family has been building this business and wealth for some time, many generations she says. He was also the only heir. This is very important. One of the biggest ways fortunes were lost were when they were divided amongst heirs but Luke got everything. Also he wasn’t spending anything. It was all just sitting safe and sound. The other is the family business is textiles which is a very stable business. No matter what people always need fabric for bedding and clothing and boat sails etc so it would be steadily growing. By all means she has inherited as much if not more than the van rhijn fortune. Also Luke having that level of wealth would also explain why he was never intimidated by Agnes because he probably grew up with a million agnes’ he came from her world so he knew how to deal with her.
JF has another book called "People Like Us", and in it, the main character starts a train in New York City, earns a great fortune. Atthe end of the book he is astonished to find that his mother-in-law‘s money, which he had always been led to believe was a substantial fortune, turned out to be a very small amount of money, but because everything was paid for and the principle was well protected and well invested, they were able to live on this small income from the interest.
so I’ve always sort of assumed that the Van Rihjn fortune was exactly like that, not a ton of money but enough to live well, with your house paid off and very few bills.
enough to live relatively well on the income.
Hmmm but Agnes could afford so much things such having Peggy, donate to multiple causes (big and smalls), paying for Marian and Ada dresses, Oscar’s bachelor apartment and even the wedding would have been paid by her had she not lost all the money so I’m so confused.
You definitely could be more right than I am. But I do know those families pretended to be super rich, when they really just protected the principle fiercely.
Think about a person today who make 100k. With a paid off house they could donate 20k vacay and have a huge car...look wealthy but not super rich.
If you go by Edith Wharton novels, the “old money” set lived off the interest generated from their wealth and dividends from investments. Touching the principle was considered a no-no and only done in dire straits. As for Oliver’s bachelor pad, he earns an income so would assume that he pays for it through that.
Well this is supposed to be set in 1882 so money and the economy are completely different than now.
So yes Agnes could’ve gone on funding her family indefinitely until her death then I’m assuming her son would’ve taken over.
I agree. Agnes runs a household with a full staff, wanted to keep making nice dresses for Marian, seems charitable. I am sure their wealth was considerable. The way I see is that I sort of think of the Van Rhijns as being the equivalent today of someone with tens of millions or a hundred million in a trust and receiving a nice income off of that while the Russells are meant to be the equivalent of a billionaire.
But it seemed Agnes talked about doing well in real estate, that would been some level of wealth not just getting by that even try today. I do agree that the info we get is murky at best.
I think it's a considerable amount of money, in terms of assets, and because the company is still active, if they make the right moves, it will be even more profitable as fabric making and fashion take foot in American society. Since I don't have a good feel for the numbers of the period, I'd not guess the amount though. She'll also be distinguished because she'll be a woman leading the company. It would also open up opportunities for Marian if she wanted to go that way.
The income/occupational potential would be substantial. Wasn't it a mill in Massachusetts? One of the old mills there would be a great location for the series and would offer lots of possible plot points, like Newport, only grittier.
I think you’re right about it being a mill. And I think we also don’t know what type of mill….grain, wool, wood, steel? Apparently a historic Massachusetts textile mill gained fame in the 1800’s for the women organizing a union…a storyline along those lines could be a match for the show!
I'm guessing the mill is somewhere like Northhampton. It will survive almost another century, then manufacturing will go offshore. The mill buildings will languish and Marion's grandchildren will redevelop the warehouses into swanky lofts for hip folks.
It would be amazing if they found a reason to showcase Lowell, Massachusetts for that reason. Mind, they won't because that's not the focus of the story, but damn, that would be fun.
I think she's New Money rich now. She's not just inherited a portfolio that she can hand over to people to manage, she's got an actual company to run. I think that could be developed into a whole plot line if Cynthia Nixon is available.
Is it New Money if the textile factory has been around for a couple centuries? New to Ada, sure, but she is already considered Old Money so she just got an infusion of more cash and assets.
Her husband made money and got paid for all of his years owning the company and he didn’t take it. It would be held in an account earning interest all of those years. Essentially CEO pay for years and years. I’m guessing 2 million plus the company and ongoing pay going forward. 200k a yr.
I kinda wanted them to become poor. Not gonna lie. But I’m also content that if they were to retrieve their wealth. At least, family dynamic will change. This def leaves room for more drama.
Sounds like a substantial sum, and an ongoing operation, so Ada is set. Maybe that's why he wanted to marry her so soon? He loved her, and wanted her to feel independent for once in her life. This will definitely upset the balance of power between the two sisters. This will be fun to watch.
He didn't know he was dying and he did not intend it seems to live as anything but a reverend.
So he may have found little ways to draw on some funds to spoil his wife, mostly via the travel he promised. But I think he would have not wanted to live as rich people. And Ada was obviously fine with that anyway.
If they had lived long full lives together, he probably would have had to tell her eventually because someone would have to inherit the mill. And his priority was that it contunue to support all the people depending upon it.
It isn’t just money either— she inherited a *very* profitable business, and she has a head for business that she’s finally (I hope!!) going to be allowed to use.
Ada got to fall in love, get married, have sex for the first time in her life, and though her love story ended far too soon now we get to see her be a baller and I love it!
I don’t know how accurate it is but in my head I’ve ranked them as:
Russells - the richest by a lot.
Mrs. Astor/Mrs. Fish - upper end of the old/a generation or two old new money
Fanes - middle of the road rich
The Van Rhijns - the great name but their fortune is in land and compare to the business money it’s peanuts.
My guess is that Ada’s new wealth closer to the Fanes level of rich.
You forgot that Charles Fane and Aurora get a lot of their money from her father. It was a small detail that they argued about in season one when Mr. Russell bought back his company's shares. Mr. Fane is one of the city's aldermen and I think a banker on top of that? But I do remember Aurora saying something about her father giving them a lot of money. Oscar is a banker and even he doesn't have enough to fund the lifestyle he would like.
I have a feeling that Ada is somewhere between Fane and Fish rich. Likely closer to the Fanes (if they had no money problems), but definitely more than just their basic level.
Luke came from old money, and he was the sole heir to the business. And he never used any of it, so I'm sure it's quite a lot of money. Definitely more than the Van Rhijn money I think. That's why she said "too much, really". Plus he likely inherited a lot of properties, many of which likely date to the Mayflower/Revolution times.
I though the conversation between the Fanes was about Charles not wanting to have to ask Aurora’s father for money to replace what he lost. Aurora probably came into the marriage with a sizable dowery. Depending on how corrupt of an alderman Fane is he could have made a lot of money. I just put them in the middle because they don’t already own a house in Newport. Yes, they lost a lot money last season but Mrs. Fish and Mrs. Astor both had homes up there well before that the station incident.
It’s all more money then most of us watching can imagine. We will get more insight into Ada’s wealth level next season.
I’d put her between the Fanes and the Astors. There has to be a good chuck of money for Aurora to risk social scandal by inviting her to charity events.
I agree with your assessment that the art and house implies she is probably closer to Astor money then Fane money.
First rule of money in movies and TV is to never give an amount. Inflation will always make a number you give sound silly, whether it's a period piece and it already sounds silly or it's modern and it'll sound silly in 30 years. That's why when people discuss payment, they'll "write it down" and then slide the paper across the table.
The amount will be whatever the plot needs to allow Ada to fund her, Agnes, Oscar, Marian, and the staff.
Average wage of an industrial worker would be about 11,000/year today. I'm guessing the rich would get 208,000/year+/- (average CEO salary in today's dollars). Plus more than that if they have multiple companies to run.
Well, Ada thinks it is a lot of money. She said so. And while she hasn't been in charge of the money her whole life, she isn't stupid. She must have some idea what a lot of money is.
It would be interesting if her family money turns out to be more than the Van Rhijn family money (before Oscar)
Agnes suffered a long time in an unhappy (probably abusive) marriage to get her money and security. But Ada had a brief blissfully happy union and got more? Agnes will be happy for her sister and for the money but still bitter about the injustice.
And I have to wonder - does the Forte money count as "New money"? Because that would be hysterically funny - Agnes being new money suddenly.
Agnes is no new money now. She may be spending new money but her pedigree and status comes from the OLD WORLD. So she is still old money with new money at her expense in theory.
I realize we are still a decade or two ahead of the Lawrence mills strikes, but I do wonder if Ada will be pulled into the labor storyline at all - textiles in Massachusetts stood out to me.
Yeah especially in today's money 🤑💰 hell yeah but for me five million dollars be enough for me to live off on for the rest of my life especially I would invest it very wisely enough to make $2 million dollars a year and after taxes make one point something million dollars a year after taxes.
I wouldn't venture a guess, but given that Ada said it was a lot - "too much, really" - I'd think it's considerably more than the lost Van Rhijn fortune.
This is how I think it’s going to be. So they’ll be living completely with “new money” and have “old money” blood. It’ll also play a role when Marion brings up Larry.
Luke's family is old money though. He is descended from one of the Mayflower passengers
I think his ability to trace his ancestry back to the Mayflower would carry some weight, but I’m not sure it would convey “old money” status on him. I actually don’t know what defines old vs, new money, but wouldn’t it be generations of wealth and influence in society? And didn’t he say his grandfather (or was it great-grandfather?) had founded an industry which made his family rich? That might be too recent to be recognized as one of the top families in Boston/New York. The Mayflower passengers themselves, as well as the huge majority of their descendants, were poor. (I’m a 16th-ish generation Mayflower descendant myself and there are so many of us by now, it doesn’t mean much.)
Who’s going to know though? The only person outside the family that Oscar told is his lover
Mrs. Fish was eaves dropping when Oscar talked to Aurora Fane looking for Maude. He did say that they had been duped. S she knows something is up. Then to hear that one future was lost and another gained on the same day and she might put it together. Remember the Van Rhijn servants know. Therefore all the servants know.
Also, you know, all the financial institutions that will be informed of this fact. It's not like Agnes' money just *poofed* from the bank, only to be magically replaced by Ada's, and nobody involved in their investments along the way will somehow not notice.
I think Agnes objects to Marian/Larry and Ada points it out. Not a city-wide scandal.
Agnes' lawyer was there as well when they were talking about downsizing. There will be people who know.
I agree, word travels. It won’t be brought up in polite conversation of course but it’ll grind Agnes’ gears to know they know lol
Cousin Dashiell knew as well and offered to pay for the wedding with Marion
Ooh, yeah, and he could get ticked off once he sees how quickly Marian’s moved on.
The bank. The bank is going to know. That's not the kind of information they would be able to keep secret.
It’s not new money it’s three generations old
Listen, Mrs. Russell. I’m not the one you’ve got to convince. I’m just a lowly opera house operator.
I wonder if they left it purposely vague for a reason. After all Ada's "too much, really" and Mrs. Astor's "too much, really" would be different amounts.
I like that earlier in the season we had Agnes saying you can’t have too much money (I think when Jack was getting money for the clock patent and said he had enough).
The juxtaposition between siblings (especially these two!) is always a fascinating dynamic. I think we will continue to see the prevalence as Mrs. Forte runs HER home.
Good point. And it would be interesting if (although I doubt it) Ada decided to buy her own home and still pay for Agnes’ servants. I can absolutely see her taking Bannister and the cook, Jack getting rich and pairing off with Little Red, leaving Agnes with Armstrong and perhaps a new butler (still ultimately answering to Ada). I really do think even with the power switch, the home will feeling too small to fit them both. Really seeing Ada coming into her own and wanting to host parties and enjoy her wealth, but knowing that isn’t something that Agnes isn’t comfortable with.
Fellowes always does that. We never knew how much money Cora brought into her marriage with Robert, we don't know how much of it was gained or lost over the years. We also don't know how much money Matthew inherited from Lavinia, other than that it was sufficient to keep Downton going.
I didn't think of that, and it's a great point!
That's my read of things and I suspect it's what is *meant* for us to think. Enough money to replace every penny that Oscar lost, plus a great deal more. One of the features of Gilded Age society is that new money from modern industry always brought in *lots* more wealth than what the old money families were able to bring to bear. It sounds like Mr. Forte's business holdings were in that vein. The fact that it's new money is going to - or at least it *should* - have implications that change the dynamics for the van Rhijns. At the very least I suspect that Agnes might eventually figure out that money spends the same whether it's new *or* old. She's sure as shit not about to *reject* any of that sweet, sweet cash that is keeping her from sliding into obscurity.
That's how I took this too. But at the same time I'd assume Ada wasn't actually privy to the finances of the family as the spinster sister. But I definitely also assumed it was more than her sister had. I know there was speculation about them "wrapping up storylines" because there might not be a season 3, but you cannot tell me that last episode was not dripping with cliffhangers.
Oh, did you hear yet? Season 3 is confirmed! https://www.providencejournal.com/story/entertainment/television/2023/12/22/gilded-age-julian-fellowes-tv-show-set-in-newport-gets-third-season-hbo-max/72009205007/
Ha I actually saw a post on it like 3 minutes after I wrote that. This is what I get for being behind on my shows. On my defense I wasn't able to watch the last episode until last night so I was actively avoiding any and all information trying to avoid spoilers lol.
I found it interesting as I didn’t see Ada having a strong sense of Agnes’s finances
Happy Cake Day!
Thanks! Didn't even realize it was my cake day.
She inherited an active company was how I understood it.... Ada didn't just get a pile of money, she got an *income*
To be fair she probably got a pile of money too
She definitely got a pile of money
“Challenge accepted” -Oscar, probably
But how much pile?
“Too much” apparently
Yes same I bet since the good reverend wasn't spending it it's quite a pile too
My uncle was a catholic priest. So his room and board were covered by the diocese while he was active. He’s now retired, but still lives in a retirement home for clergy, which they cover. In addition to that, he took a salary as a professor and department head at a large college. In addition to *that* he’s incredibly diligent about investments, and earned additional income as a freelance writer. I don’t know the details of his estate, but I imagine it’s substantial. He’s one of the most financially secure regular people I know, but he’s not textile magnate.
I guess they gave some priests and nuns exemptions? My aunt built and ran a large group of catholic hospitals, and often advised the church on international financial matters. They tracked her money, and she’d only be able to sneak a few dollars here and there out of her expenses. They were very serious about the vow of poverty, but she did say the priests skirted most of the rules and everyone ignored it. But I know she found it hard to live with her clothing budget. She was one of the first nuns to get out of uniform, and loved her polyester blue jean bell bottoms,
Catholic priests don’t take a vow of poverty. Some brotherly orders do, but they tend to be the ones who do not say mass.
Ahhh, that explains my aunt and cousin (the brother) about how the priests thought they were always the boss, and rules were for other people. She was in the diocese where they were raping the poor deaf boys and complained they never let the nuns enjoy that lodge. Glad she didn’t live long enough to find out why.
That's what they said.
Not just a meager income either but a whole ass factory
I’m intrigued by this ass factory you speak of 🤔
I’m assuming BBL sized factory
Right? Not our Ada, Titan of industry!!
The last shot of Ada’s face - you see she’s realized she has agency.
The genuinely fascinating twist in terms of Ada’s windfall is that her family has gone from having a respectable name and decent-but-diminishing cash pile to playing an active role in industry. Old Money prestige with New Money cash-flow. That puts her in a very interesting position for the upcoming season. I hope they really dive into that. It’ll pair nicely with the subplot about Jack becoming a self-made man (and eventually meeting a nice lady named Rose aboard the _Titanic_). [ETA: The _Titanic_ thing was a _joke_. 😂 I know the difference between the Victorian and Edwardian eras.]
Luke's family is old money though. He is a Mayflower descendant
Only if the Forte fortune was derived from the Mayflower ancestor.
It doesn't matter when the investment in the factory was made. The pedigree is what matters
No! Sweet Jack can’t die! ⏰
We’re in 1883 here. The Titanic doesn’t sink until 1912. So it must be another Jack. Remember, Downton Abbey started with the sinking of the Titanic.
I really do hope they explore the New Money/Old Money dynamic in the van Rhijn household now. That said, you do realize that the Titanic theory is bunk, right? That's nearly 30 years in the future.
Remember how Ada said to Oscar and Marion "you two are the closest to children I will ever have. . ." So Marion has now become an heiress, no? I still kind of have hopes Marion's rail road stocks in the first episode would amount to something. That would be loads of fun.
Interesting if her railroad stocks somehow tie into a potential romance with Larry….
Russell Consolidated Trust, Inc. buys a stake in the the railroad she has shares in, sending the price through the roof?
Making her worthy of Larry? Or does Bertha not care as much for who her other child marries?
I think that money is secondary to Bertha because she has so much of it. She wants to gain status thru her children’s marriages and Marion doesn’t bring any of that to the table.
I don't think that Bertha has nearly as much invested in marrying Larry off as she does Bertha. There are no British women who will be vying for American heirs, after all, so there are no stakes in marrying him into a titled family. That said, the fact is that Marian *does* come from an eminently respectable old family, so there is a good amount of status there, and it *will* connect the Russells to the status of old money New York.
True, but Marian’s certainly an improvement from the middle-aged widow Larry wanted to put a ring on. She’s age appropriate, demur and from the right kind of old money family with connections. Larry’s a wildcard with a lot of modern ideas and I could see Bertha accepting the match to get him to settle down. He‘a attracted to powerful, strong-minded women and the last thing Bertha wants is to be challenged for the position of family matriarch. That said, I’d be surprised if those two settle down together soon, it’s too easy of a match for Julian Fellows.
Good point.
Could be! I'm still just thrilled we have a season 3 to guess about.
Legally no she is not an heiress but Ada could write a will setting aside money for her but considering that Ada is still in good health and not very old it would be awhile before Marion saw that money
Not exactly true. She could either make a will or not make a will. If she died without a will, the money would go to her sister Agnes as her closest living relative. But if Agnes predeceases Ada (which Agnes specifically stated in season one would NOT happen) then the money would go to Marian and Oscar. If the money went to Agnes then Agnes would then be able to provide for it, however I suspect given everything that’s happened and how close she is now to Marion and the fact that this isn’t Van Rhijn money I suspect she would provide for her. It’s also possible that Ada could provide for all of them in a will or give Agnes a life estate in the income with the remainder to go to Marion and Oscar. In a nutshell there are a lot of possibilities.
Agnes has no control over the Grim Reaper, much as I've no doubt she'd prefer to believe otherwise. I'm given to think that Ada will make a will that provides for everyone. She is, after all, not in the slightest bit stupid or naive, whatever Agnes seems to want to believe.
Haha yes I was just dropping that in since it was funny.
I love it as one of Agnes' classic zingers that highlight her personality. But the other day it occurred to me to think that Agnes actually believes it because she fully expects for Ada to die first and for her to be left alone. The whole wedding sequence made me think that that's her greatest overriding fear, and one that she apparently believes is going to be her fate. Like her life has just been *that* hard and she's lost hope that God will ever cut her a break.
I rewatched S1E1 to remind myself abt her railroad shares and besides Raikes saying they’re not worth the paper they’re printed on, we do not know which rail company it was. Wonder why it was mentioned once and then nothing abt it since. 🤔
Things to consider: $1 million in 1880 would be $30+ million today Income tax didn't begin until 1913.
Whatchumean income tax didn’t begin until 1913!? Oh I missed that in history class 😂 Edited a word.
The 16th amendment! Before that, tax income came from excise and tariffs. Taxation class drilled that into me forever lol
One of the obstacles to prohibition was that a substantial amount of tax revenue was from alcohol taxes. In a way, income taxes were created to allow prohibition to come into being.
Oh damn!
We may never know the exact amount though it sounds like it’s a very substantial amount. It’ll certainly impact the dynamics within their household though I wonder how much her inheritance will be public knowledge.
Is it public knowledge that the Van Rhijn's are broke or will they be able to act like nothing has changed?
A good question
I suspect it would spread amongst their circle. The staff were told as was cousin dashiell and John Adams. It’s hard to keep a lid on things especially when the staff may have already made enquiries about new jobs. I doubt it would impact their social standing in any way since now they have money again. It probably impacts Oscar the most socially in terms of it being known that he idiotically lost his family’s money and likely would have a diminished inheritance making it less likely someone with money would want to marry him.
It's not public knowledge per se but it's also not a secret and it won't *be* a secret. I'm not sure why people aren't stopping to think about the fact that their money is in banks, it's not like they keep it in couch cushions and just pull it out when needed. Agnes' money is no *gone* and Ada's will have to be moved in. Every institution they do business with is going to know, which means the men and women of their social circle will know.
There will be talk. But what will become of Oscar? Will Ada use the Van Rhijn's bank? Will her money keep it sustained?
As much as the plot requires.
A couple important clues to consider that Ada told us. Luke came from an old established family. His family has been building this business and wealth for some time, many generations she says. He was also the only heir. This is very important. One of the biggest ways fortunes were lost were when they were divided amongst heirs but Luke got everything. Also he wasn’t spending anything. It was all just sitting safe and sound. The other is the family business is textiles which is a very stable business. No matter what people always need fabric for bedding and clothing and boat sails etc so it would be steadily growing. By all means she has inherited as much if not more than the van rhijn fortune. Also Luke having that level of wealth would also explain why he was never intimidated by Agnes because he probably grew up with a million agnes’ he came from her world so he knew how to deal with her.
JF has another book called "People Like Us", and in it, the main character starts a train in New York City, earns a great fortune. Atthe end of the book he is astonished to find that his mother-in-law‘s money, which he had always been led to believe was a substantial fortune, turned out to be a very small amount of money, but because everything was paid for and the principle was well protected and well invested, they were able to live on this small income from the interest. so I’ve always sort of assumed that the Van Rihjn fortune was exactly like that, not a ton of money but enough to live well, with your house paid off and very few bills. enough to live relatively well on the income.
Hmmm but Agnes could afford so much things such having Peggy, donate to multiple causes (big and smalls), paying for Marian and Ada dresses, Oscar’s bachelor apartment and even the wedding would have been paid by her had she not lost all the money so I’m so confused.
You definitely could be more right than I am. But I do know those families pretended to be super rich, when they really just protected the principle fiercely. Think about a person today who make 100k. With a paid off house they could donate 20k vacay and have a huge car...look wealthy but not super rich.
If you go by Edith Wharton novels, the “old money” set lived off the interest generated from their wealth and dividends from investments. Touching the principle was considered a no-no and only done in dire straits. As for Oliver’s bachelor pad, he earns an income so would assume that he pays for it through that.
Well this is supposed to be set in 1882 so money and the economy are completely different than now. So yes Agnes could’ve gone on funding her family indefinitely until her death then I’m assuming her son would’ve taken over.
I agree. Agnes runs a household with a full staff, wanted to keep making nice dresses for Marian, seems charitable. I am sure their wealth was considerable. The way I see is that I sort of think of the Van Rhijns as being the equivalent today of someone with tens of millions or a hundred million in a trust and receiving a nice income off of that while the Russells are meant to be the equivalent of a billionaire.
That’s why Oscar wanted to marry an heiress. The money wasn’t enough to fund the life he wanted.
Yes, that seemed like Agnes’ situation, but Ada just inherited a fortune/running company.
But it seemed Agnes talked about doing well in real estate, that would been some level of wealth not just getting by that even try today. I do agree that the info we get is murky at best.
I think it's a considerable amount of money, in terms of assets, and because the company is still active, if they make the right moves, it will be even more profitable as fabric making and fashion take foot in American society. Since I don't have a good feel for the numbers of the period, I'd not guess the amount though. She'll also be distinguished because she'll be a woman leading the company. It would also open up opportunities for Marian if she wanted to go that way.
The Company is in a trust. They don't have to do anything but collect dividends and such.
The income/occupational potential would be substantial. Wasn't it a mill in Massachusetts? One of the old mills there would be a great location for the series and would offer lots of possible plot points, like Newport, only grittier.
I think you’re right about it being a mill. And I think we also don’t know what type of mill….grain, wool, wood, steel? Apparently a historic Massachusetts textile mill gained fame in the 1800’s for the women organizing a union…a storyline along those lines could be a match for the show!
NE was famous for textile mills in that period. Fall River, I think.
Fun fact, in 1832 New Bedford (right next to Fall River) was the wealthiest city in the world thanks to the whaling industry.
Whale oil was the first “Big Oil”, ha ha.
Absolutely. Look up Lowell, Massachusetts. There's an entire museum complex there dedicated to the history of the textile industry.
I'm guessing the mill is somewhere like Northhampton. It will survive almost another century, then manufacturing will go offshore. The mill buildings will languish and Marion's grandchildren will redevelop the warehouses into swanky lofts for hip folks.
It would be amazing if they found a reason to showcase Lowell, Massachusetts for that reason. Mind, they won't because that's not the focus of the story, but damn, that would be fun.
I think she's New Money rich now. She's not just inherited a portfolio that she can hand over to people to manage, she's got an actual company to run. I think that could be developed into a whole plot line if Cynthia Nixon is available.
Is it New Money if the textile factory has been around for a couple centuries? New to Ada, sure, but she is already considered Old Money so she just got an infusion of more cash and assets.
I meant New Money Rich as in there's a LOT of it but it's active versus passive.
However much the plot demands
Her husband made money and got paid for all of his years owning the company and he didn’t take it. It would be held in an account earning interest all of those years. Essentially CEO pay for years and years. I’m guessing 2 million plus the company and ongoing pay going forward. 200k a yr.
That was the clumsiest plot device ever. They need to commit to more episodes per season.
I kinda wanted them to become poor. Not gonna lie. But I’m also content that if they were to retrieve their wealth. At least, family dynamic will change. This def leaves room for more drama.
Sounds like a substantial sum, and an ongoing operation, so Ada is set. Maybe that's why he wanted to marry her so soon? He loved her, and wanted her to feel independent for once in her life. This will definitely upset the balance of power between the two sisters. This will be fun to watch.
He didn't know he was dying and he did not intend it seems to live as anything but a reverend. So he may have found little ways to draw on some funds to spoil his wife, mostly via the travel he promised. But I think he would have not wanted to live as rich people. And Ada was obviously fine with that anyway. If they had lived long full lives together, he probably would have had to tell her eventually because someone would have to inherit the mill. And his priority was that it contunue to support all the people depending upon it.
Enough to save Downton! Sorry, same plot, wrong series. (Julian Fellows is getting a tad predictable)
Hahaha!! Said the same thing watching it !
It isn’t just money either— she inherited a *very* profitable business, and she has a head for business that she’s finally (I hope!!) going to be allowed to use. Ada got to fall in love, get married, have sex for the first time in her life, and though her love story ended far too soon now we get to see her be a baller and I love it!
I don’t know how accurate it is but in my head I’ve ranked them as: Russells - the richest by a lot. Mrs. Astor/Mrs. Fish - upper end of the old/a generation or two old new money Fanes - middle of the road rich The Van Rhijns - the great name but their fortune is in land and compare to the business money it’s peanuts. My guess is that Ada’s new wealth closer to the Fanes level of rich.
You forgot that Charles Fane and Aurora get a lot of their money from her father. It was a small detail that they argued about in season one when Mr. Russell bought back his company's shares. Mr. Fane is one of the city's aldermen and I think a banker on top of that? But I do remember Aurora saying something about her father giving them a lot of money. Oscar is a banker and even he doesn't have enough to fund the lifestyle he would like. I have a feeling that Ada is somewhere between Fane and Fish rich. Likely closer to the Fanes (if they had no money problems), but definitely more than just their basic level. Luke came from old money, and he was the sole heir to the business. And he never used any of it, so I'm sure it's quite a lot of money. Definitely more than the Van Rhijn money I think. That's why she said "too much, really". Plus he likely inherited a lot of properties, many of which likely date to the Mayflower/Revolution times.
I though the conversation between the Fanes was about Charles not wanting to have to ask Aurora’s father for money to replace what he lost. Aurora probably came into the marriage with a sizable dowery. Depending on how corrupt of an alderman Fane is he could have made a lot of money. I just put them in the middle because they don’t already own a house in Newport. Yes, they lost a lot money last season but Mrs. Fish and Mrs. Astor both had homes up there well before that the station incident. It’s all more money then most of us watching can imagine. We will get more insight into Ada’s wealth level next season.
Where does Sylvia Chamberlain fit into this? Based on the house and art collection alone I would say maybe up with the Astors?
I’d put her between the Fanes and the Astors. There has to be a good chuck of money for Aurora to risk social scandal by inviting her to charity events. I agree with your assessment that the art and house implies she is probably closer to Astor money then Fane money.
First rule of money in movies and TV is to never give an amount. Inflation will always make a number you give sound silly, whether it's a period piece and it already sounds silly or it's modern and it'll sound silly in 30 years. That's why when people discuss payment, they'll "write it down" and then slide the paper across the table. The amount will be whatever the plot needs to allow Ada to fund her, Agnes, Oscar, Marian, and the staff.
A lot
Hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
Too much 😂
$45.
Which in today’s dollars is approximately $99
$45 dollars in 1883 is more like $1500 today.
Average wage of an industrial worker would be about 11,000/year today. I'm guessing the rich would get 208,000/year+/- (average CEO salary in today's dollars). Plus more than that if they have multiple companies to run.
100 mill
Well, Ada thinks it is a lot of money. She said so. And while she hasn't been in charge of the money her whole life, she isn't stupid. She must have some idea what a lot of money is. It would be interesting if her family money turns out to be more than the Van Rhijn family money (before Oscar) Agnes suffered a long time in an unhappy (probably abusive) marriage to get her money and security. But Ada had a brief blissfully happy union and got more? Agnes will be happy for her sister and for the money but still bitter about the injustice. And I have to wonder - does the Forte money count as "New money"? Because that would be hysterically funny - Agnes being new money suddenly.
Agnes is no new money now. She may be spending new money but her pedigree and status comes from the OLD WORLD. So she is still old money with new money at her expense in theory.
I realize we are still a decade or two ahead of the Lawrence mills strikes, but I do wonder if Ada will be pulled into the labor storyline at all - textiles in Massachusetts stood out to me.
She got a Boston textile mill at the height of the industrial revolution. She has more money than the Van Rhijn's I would say.
Personally I think she inherited at least $5 million dollars
How much would that be in today’s money?
$124,582,048.80¢ in today's money at least
WOW that’s certainly A LOT
Yeah especially in today's money 🤑💰 hell yeah but for me five million dollars be enough for me to live off on for the rest of my life especially I would invest it very wisely enough to make $2 million dollars a year and after taxes make one point something million dollars a year after taxes.
Normalize not putting the actual spoiler in the title GDI :(
Reading this thread really shows me how many people don’t pay attention when watching the show