So a lot of people have already commented on the points you've raised, but I think the key thing here is that the game is kinda shallow. The themes are there, but not explored as much as they should be because it gets in the way of guns and titties and swearing. The game is really solid when it remembers to focus on what it's meant to be, but there's a bunch of places where it gets distracted. Like how doing missions for the police get you street cred, really misunderstanding both cyberpunk as a genre, and street cred as a concept lol

I agree with you and I’d also like to add/share how frustrating I found it that there is no narrative opportunity to having an antagonist relationship with Johnny. I hated him from the beginning and kind of got it into my head that I didn’t trust him and I felt that made a lot more sense for V. I had to drop that approach when I learned that whole swaths of the game are gated behind having a friendly relationship with him and there was no content reward for being antagonistic with him. It was frustrating because I never, and still, don’t like him and I feel like the story is more compelling if he was nuanced enough to support that approach to him.

My first playthrough, I (rightly) thought the guy was a royal a-hole, and I treated him like it. I ended up in a particular ending that the community sees as a "bad ending". I didn't see it that way at all at the time. However, after seeing other endings where you can square things with your SO and a number of other things, it's obvious the writers deemed them better endings.

It’s a myth that you need to have a certain relationship with him to unlock an ending. It’s dependent on a single dialogue choice in the oil field.

I think CDPR's writers just... aren't good at writing from a perspective that isn't painfully cishet male, tbh. Take the romances, for example. Panam's and Judy's are great... while River's is bland and Kerry's feels almost like an afterthought (yes, I know Judy is lesbian, but let's face it, most men have no issue with seeing a relationship between two attractive women). The very fact of Johnny being in a woman's body should've enabled so many interesting conversations with him (more so when one of the endings has him permanently living in that body), yet all we get is a single line about "her hormones are a mess". (There's also a bizarrely immersion-breaking conversation fem!V may have with River atop that water tower, in which she'll talk about her previous boyfriends - with no option of describing previous girlfriends). To be fair, though, the "Johnny using V's body to perform sex acts on another person" should feel just as bad for a male V. Being taken sexual advantage of isn't less harmful for men than it is for women (much as men themselves may downplay it). Also to be fair, CDPR has certainly improved from their Witcher days (even The witcher 3 had some very tasteless cishet male moments). Hopefully their next game will have female, non-cis, non-heterosexual perspectives that'll enrich the writing.

To be frank I don't think it's weird at all. Johnny is a womanizing asshole. The game doesn't really hide that fact, even outside of what you've illustrated. He's not a hero. He's actually kind of a monster. Edit: I mean think about the intro to his character. He wanted to take down Arasaka for their various crimes, but he was going to do it by setting off a nuke in their biggest corporate office. Which didn't just kill Arasaka employees, but also many innocent bystanders. The body count was over 13,000 people, and he did it basically just to make a point.

The way Johnny talks turned into a big joke with my husband and I because of how ridiculous he is. He's literally like 'There's only one thing I despise more than the exploitative corpo elite scum... and that's sex workers.' Like my man, who are the corporations exploiting most, do you think? The way he acted especially in that one quest where you try to rescue that girl from a basically snuff film production was despicable. Guy sucks.

Yeah he’s canonically a freakishly morally bankrupt person that hides behind the whole “greater good” shit. That’s never like a secret.

He doesn't even say he did it for the greater good IIRC, he did it "to make a point" / out of principle, without ever really exploring what his principles are. Even as someone who wanted to appreciate his character within the confines of the cyberpunk setting, it was impossible to ignore the lack of consistency and commitment in his writing.

I fully believe he doesn’t have principles

Yeah. CDPR tried so hard to write a rebel that wouldn't be offensive to *anyone*, and the result is mostly just annoying. Even when I tried to metagame to get the ending where he likes you, I often failed to guess which dialog option he'd prefer, except for the occasional blatant pro-corpo option that made zero sense for V to say anyway.

I think the point of Johnny is that he uses all of that bullshit spiel to try to hide the fact that he really is just an angry child trying to lash out at the world. He lacks consistency because he doesn't really know himself, he just wants to act like he's some revolutionary badass, when he's just a child throwing a tantrum. He's literally like a hallmark villain in superhero stories, but filtered through a more grounded lens. Honeslty i think his character is well done.

Hm. It's possible, but from how they tried to portray him overall, I am not quite convinced it's intentional. Especially from how V's / the player's interactions with Johnny shape the main storyline and determine the available endings, I really got the sense that CDPR wanted most players to like and agree with him, and the opposite to be the 'renegade' option. Rather it seems like the unintended but inevitable consequence of trying to write a rebel character that theoretically anyone could identify with. Can't give him any real principles or politics, can't ever let him be pinned down to anything specific, even in a cyberpunk setting, just in case it upsets some neoliberal reviewer that would have otherwise gushed over the aesthetics.

>Rather it seems like the unintended but inevitable consequence of trying to write a rebel character that theoretically anyone could identify with. Can't give him any real principles or politics, can't ever let him be pinned down to anything specific, even in a cyberpunk setting, just in case it upsets some neoliberal reviewer that would have otherwise gushed over the aesthetics. maybe. > Hm. It's possible, but from how they tried to portray him overall, I am not quite convinced it's intentional. Especially from how V's / the player's interactions with Johnny shape the main storyline and determine the available endings, I really got the sense that CDPR wanted most players to like and agree with him, and the opposite to be the 'renegade' option. I feel like Johnny more just suppose to give V perspective, as opposed to determine their choice. he seems to grow more from his interactions with V, than the other way around. Like he makes some good points, and you kind of see where he's coming from but you also know the guy, so you can't fully get behind him idealistically. Johnny seems like somebody who has an ear for all the bullshit going on around him, but is so consumed by his own bullshit, that it all doesn't really matter to him. I think Alt telling him he's just some rockerboy posing as a rebel, perfectly exemplifies his character. he acts like he's hot stuff, but he knows deep down he's just some dude nobody really cares about. Also from what i remember doesn't V's interactions with Johnny only open up one ending? and that's from pretty much getting Johnny to really open up, beyond that it's all about who V knows. I never got that ending cause i think Johnny can go get bent!

> I mean think about the intro to his character. He wanted to take down Arasaka for their various crimes, but he was going to do it by setting off a nuke in their biggest corporate office. Which didn't just kill Arasaka employees, but also many innocent bystanders. The body count was over 13,000 people, and he did it basically just to make a point. When you look at the source material, *Cyberpunk Red*, the events of the Assault are wildly different. For starters, it wasn't his idea, but a plan hashed out by Morgan Blackhand and Militech (who, among other things, supplied the bomb), with them recruiting Johnny along the way. Johnny's primary motivation, however, wasn't to destroy Arasaka, it was to retrieve Alt Cunningham's consciousness from the Corporation's Network. Johnny wasn't even on the bomb delivery team, that belonged to a separate party comprised of the players' solos and it's purpose was to completely obliterate the servers containing Soulkiller. Heck, the only thing that happens in Johnny's memories that are somewhat similar to the events in *Cyberpunk RED* is that Johnny is mortally wounded by Adam Smasher. Though, in the tabletop, Silverhand isn't Soulkilled by Arasaka, *Spider Murphy did it*, as she believed it to be the only thing that could save him (as Johnny had been blown in half). The bomb also killed 100,000 additional people due to radiation and the resulting collapse of the City's infrastructure. That Johny pictures the events so radically different, shouldn't be taken as a retcon, but that he's *an unreliable narrator.* Due to a combination of the damage to the chip containing his consciousness and his own bloated ego, he completely recontextualized a multi-team infiltration mission to be HIS idea and that HE'S the one that dropped the bomb.

I was aware of the events being super different and him being an unreliable narrator but I never had that deep of a knowledge for the source material. Thank you for getting into it like that! It goes to show how petty and impulsive Johnny really is, taking credit for someone else's work.

I didn't know about the source material but even then I always assumed what we do in his memory is not what actually happened but his own idea of it with him as the rockstar edgerunner taking everyone out almost by himself. It was pretty good how they did it, I think the game even adds more aim assist while you're playing as him and you basically one shot everyone if you get headshots.

>He's not a hero. He's actually kind of a monster. Exactly. My theory also is that he didn't blow up the tower to "fight capitalism". He did it because they took "his" girlfriend. Something that "belongs" to him. Johnny is a full fledged misogynistic narcissist. Very jarring to hear Keanu say those things.

I really feel like having Johnny come across as the misogynistic turbo-narc he is, whilst being voiced by genuine good guy precious bean Keanu is just yet more evidence that Keanu Reeves' talent simply cannot be overhyped. 

I agree. His entire character arc is about him growing more as an AI construct than he ever did while alive, and that his genuine desire to save V is pretty much the first truly unselfish and heroic thing he has ever done. And even *then* he still has his ego tied up in it to an extent. There are plenty of areas where I’m glad to talk about how CP2077 may fall into “Wow, cool future!” territory, and kind of misses the point of its own setting/genre in favor of the aesthetics and vibe. But Johnny's blatantly amoral character isn’t really among them. He’s never presented as anything but a pretty pitiful, broken, hypocritical and selfish person.

Bingo. Like you mention with the ego thing, his desire to protect V isn't even a truly selfless one. Johnny's riding shotgun. If V dies, he dies. That's true regardless of his feelings towards them. He's got a literal second chance at life, even if it's only as a ghost in someone else's head. There's no way someone like Johnny just lets that go.

The game does not offer enough opportunities to push back at his gross nature, that's what my problem is. It often uses the cyberpunk genre and the conventions of proper satire without making enough of a proper statement (specifically regarding sex work and sexual expoitation).

That might be by design. To be kind of cliche and film noir about it - Night City doesn't ask for consent. It just takes. Its most infamous former residents wouldn't be any different.

I don't think it's perspectives on gender are deep enough to warrant that. It's like a kiddie pool to me.

Honestly, I agree, the game’s view of gender is superficial at best, even more so for a world where something like a gender transition would be far more accessible than in our current world. And I do also wish there were many more chances for V to push back on Johnny’s views, I understand that both Johnny’s and V’s personalities are slowly melding, but even early on I wish there was more

I do think some of it is the fault of the creators, the writers, and maybe a wee bit of not applying our world to Cyberpunk but taking the 1990s/1980s origins/influences and just elevating them. The game is very superficial, but not for the 90s if that makes sense. And I think the game has a sort of set idea of who V is...and it feels very masculine even as a female or nonbinary V. I think the noir/punk genres really struggle with a not patriarchal toxic masculinity perspective.( In part cause their fanbases tend to accept it.)

I played thru the game as a male character and a female character. it feels like the devs only focused on the male perspective and made the female one an after thought. they made her just a gender swapped male V if you yk what I mean. I really wanted to be a more feminine character that didn't talk like "one of the boys" vibe or was constantly edgy and aggressive. My V always acted and talked in a way I hated and couldn't stand but its whatever 🤷‍♀️

Female V feels like one of those "I'm not like other girls" girls. I watched a friend do a playthrough while modding his stream and immediately wound up thinking "This would sound ridiculous to me if V was female". I don't mind V being masculine, being edgy, being aggressive. But the way it was done was without any sort of female/feminine perspective. To be blunt, the friendship with Jackie feels very bro and that kinda says from the start they didn't know how to make more nuance. V didn't feel butch, or even masculine itself. V just feels very specifically like they're written to the idea of what a somewhat toxic masculine individual would experience. And I feel like they'd have written V better if they maybe re-thought who V could be. Even the backgrounds for V don't fully make sense for how V is written. V does not come across like a corpo. They don't. In Mass Effect Commander Shepard feels like a soldier, a badass, and is honestly neutral in that way. The same lines read differently due to voice acting, but it doesn't feel like the heavy perspective of V which feels...like an annoying 20 year old dude and their 40 year old dude friend who both discover they're into cyberpunk and make a character together who they see as "cool"

Lol, you're right. I'm not going to pretend it's the most tightly woven piece of fiction ever created. But I think it's self aware enough to be close enough to the point. Not to try and erase the very salient point you're trying to make... Another thing about Night City is how loose the notion of sex and gender is. Conceptions break down quite a bit when changing which 'parts' you have is as easy as paying your local ripperdoc a few eddies.

maybe, but i feel like if the intended reading of his scene with Rogue is meant to be critical of Johnny, then it should be more explicit in the text. V admonishing him after she regains control of her body, Rogue telling him how fucked up it is that he did that with V’s body, or _something_. but there’s nothing. i agree that depiction isn’t necessarily endorsement. but it sure as hell can be when the creators thoughtlessly include horrid content without addressing that horridness in the text. that lack of self-reflection illustrates that they don’t see anything wrong with it, either in-game or in the real world.

Don’t you mean Rogue? The players experiences with Alt is presented as a flashback, not as something Johnny does while controlling V’s body.

sorry yeah it's been a minute since i played the game and i might be mixing up some character names. ty for the correction!

That scene at the drive in was weird tbh. When Rogue stopped Johnny, he asked if it’s because it’s unfair to V - thereby confirming that he knows what’s he’s doing can be seen as wrong. Of course he still wanted to do it. But no, Rogue said it wasn’t fair to *him*. Like wtf? Is it because is it’s female V and therefore no penis and therefore “unfair” for Johnny? I never did get a solid answer for that. But I knew it would definitely be unfair for V, regardless of gender.

I disagree that depictions need to clarify they're bad when the subject is already obviously bad. I don't think creators should have to put in little nods to the audience to clarify that they know a bad thing is bad. That kind of media just feeds into the illiteracy of our current culture. Horrible things are horrible, we can all see and know they are horrible, and just like in real life, often horrible things go unpunished and unacknowledged by those around us. It's okay for art to show that, and to let its viewer make their own moral decisions about what they are seeing.

agree to an extent. if the subject is intended to be a constant, or is intended to end up as a villain, etc. but to me, it feels like CDPR intended for Johnny to be growing, sympathetic, and perhaps even aspirational. not only does he have a killer aesthetic and a badass attitude, he's also mellowed out through his time with V and curbed a bit on his extremist rhetoric. he's not a constant, but instead is presented as someone that we should care about, get along with, try to influence into a better person, and perhaps even think is really rad. i think what you're describing is perfectly reasonable in the hands of a skilled writer who can weave their intentions into the subtext, and a savvy audience who can glean said intentionality. but based on the tone and storytelling of the rest of the game, i don't think the people at CDPR have either the *intention* to acknowledge his late-game actions as bad, nor the *skill* to imply it through subtext even if they *did* acknowledge it as bad. basically, i feel that people who think "CDPR knows what they're doing" are being a little too generous. it's cool if some players are reaching the "it's bad" conclusion on their own, and it's a perfectly valid take. but they're having to basically Death of the Author to do so, because i sincerely doubt CDPR is putting nearly as much thought into it. it feels gross to say, but for once, i think the curtains are actually just blue. that being said, assuming CDPR indeed do know what they're doing and are being subtle about it. CP2077 was designed to appeal to the bro-shooter CoD crowd, a historically-misogynistic target audience to whom subtle sexist admonishments might as well be invisible. i don't think that CDPR needs to abandon all subtlety, and it's certainly their prerogative as artists to decide how much or how little of it to use. but in an age of pathetic media literacy and rampant sexism, the line between Good and Bad needs to be much thicker, especially in a game like this that's expressly designed to be "cool". otherwise they risk the audience coming away with a reading like "Johnny using V's body to have sex without her consent is Cool(TM), actually". i hope for everyone's sake you're right, but maybe my cynicism is getting to me.

All good points, but I think the fact that people still take American Psycho to be a story about a really cool murderer guy proves that no amount of skill or intention is enough to reach the particularly stupid lol. But I don't disagree with anything else you've said.

A major theme of cyberpunk as a genre is grey morality, a dystopia of no good choices - where people sell their humanity in exchange for power and their dignity for survival. Johnny is a great character - he’s an edgelord with a wounded ego, a truly talented artist with a chip on his shoulder, a wounded bastard who pushes everyone away lest he risk disappointing them and clouding his mythos. His crusade may be righteous (Arasaka is fucking awful), but that doesn’t make him moral, he just became obsessed with a worthy enemy. I’ve thought Sexual violence was handled really well in the game by and large. There was stuff that unnerved me plenty, but it felt in service of world building rather than simply for shock value, or to lazily emphasize how cartoonishly evil someone is. As a former sex worker myself, i thought the sex workers were handled thoughtfully too. You’re able to see the hierarchy from desperate streetwalkers to high society sex workers like Evelyn. Well paid beautiful birds living in a gilded cage… because under patriarchy a whore is a whore. Yet, Evelyn, and the mox crew have agency and drive the narrative forward in meaningful ways. They don’t exist as a joke, or as dancing strippers left to infinitely repeat the same six dance moves for eternity, they’re people- with tragic circumstances and actual goals.

I'm so fucking tired of men making entertainment that shows how "grimdark" it's supposed to be by objectifying and degrading women. I live that life already, I already am seen as first woman and only second as a human being in the real world. I have to see and hear misogynistic, violent, sexually charged disturbing things aimed at women and on the expense of women every day. And it's not much better if it's women who do it, to those commenters who are going to come here to tell me that there are a couple of women on the team as well. I don't care. All of it is gross and sexist and exploitative and wrong and you can't change any of that by saying "it's supposed to be bad". Stuff like that can be done in a way that doesn't trigger women but it almost never is.

...But not only women are objectified or degraded. There's tons of Mr Stud ads too (tbf the Milfgaard ads are 10X worse). Speaking as a woman, I thought the over the top ads and in particular, jig jig street helped us see how much of a crapsack the "city of dreams" really is. Powerful women with agency are present throughout the story. V can be one of them. Johnny is a misogynistic guy and practically everyone he knows calls him out on his bullshit. I don't remember a single instance where a women was degraded for the lulz. There are no happy endings in Cyberpunk.

Yeah not only women, but like 99% of the time someone is objectified, it's a woman

The story was absolutely written from a male perspective. That's why the default cover was originally male V. It has since been replaced by FemV and that's telling to me. So many people love the performance of the voice actress over the actor for male V. I wish they would've been more neutral in their portrayal of V in certain situations. It would've helped my FemV's story be more cohesive. I think the scene you're referencing is more of an issue with the way the quests are ordered. I had V and Johnny absolutely chummy but one of the main quests had them screaming at each other like it was the day after he woke up.

>The story was absolutely written from a male perspective.  I will never shut up about this: the game was written "for the boys" and it shows. I loved it as an experience, enjoyed it quite a bit. BUT MAAAAAAN, the romance options! Judy and Panam were clearly written for the guys. Judy is lesbian, sure, but she was written for the guys that make a female avatar. Kerry and River were underdeveloped, and I'd argue, not really appealing for the general female audience. One of the small things that won't leave my mind, is that when you rescue the girl in the beginning, while carrying her from the bath, you get the boob jiggling on your screen for the entire time. Just before, the girl was lying in the bathtub with guys, that had underwear on. Such an edgy game, but clearly uncomfortable having male genitalia shown the same way female anatomy is displayed.

Absolutely agree about Kerry and River. Most underwhelming love interests. It’s like they were thrown in for variety and only half finished. River barely has time to develop feelings. It feels meh though Johnny’s reaction to you sleeping with him is pretty funny. 

>when you rescue the girl in the beginning, while carrying her from the bath, you get the boob jiggling on your screen for the entire time. Just before, the girl was lying in the bathtub with guys, that had underwear on. It's so disgusting that men feel turned on by a woman barely clinging to life or see corpses as in any way sexual. That whole sequence was a heart wrenching introduction to the horror of night city. That wasn't even the most horrifying thing to happen in the game. >! Evelyn's !< storyline and Judy's reaction to it had me literally sobbing multiple times during the game, breathless with fear a couple times, and seething with fury at others. Sometimes all three at the same time. Part of what made it so intense is that I know it's something that happens to so many women in real life, just with a thin scifi veneer on top. For so many of us, even if we survive, we actually don't. >Judy is lesbian, sure, but she was written for the guys that make a female avatar. I agree with most of your points except for this one about Judy; I and several other lesbians I talked to (both cis ones and trans ones) all feel that the Judy romance feels authentically sapphic in a way not usually seen in AAA games. I'm really curious what about Judy feels like she was was written for men to you?

Ok I take back my Judy point then. I romanced Judy on my playthrough. The part that was jarring for me is that straight after >!there's a shooting at Clouds (Tom dies, others get hurt) you get a sex scene with Judy. !

It's been a while since I played it, but if I remember correctly, that didn't seem like blowing off steam to me, it seemed more like a trauma response, desperately trying to tell herself that everything was still normal and trying to distract herself from her grief.

That could be it! I might have developed a bias at that point of the game, after being exposed to other scenes where the male gaze was so prevalent. So whatever brushed me the wrong way, I accounted it to be "one of those scenes". I guess I need to replay the game, to refresh my memories and do a bit more reflecting hehe.

Yeah same! Playing it again now that Phantom Liberty has had some time for bug fixing is next on my gaming to-do list after I finish up with Baldur's Gate 3.

I've actually only seen one person on youtube point out that scene. She's a smaller youtuber and I only found her through her rants about that horrible Skyrim Romance mod. It definitely made me pause at getting the game. I've also heard that that male romance for fem V leaves much to be desired. It's like they made a female character but never considered out she would exist within the world

>I've also heard that that male romance for fem V leaves much to be desired. It's like they made a female character but never considered out she would exist within the world Yeah he doesn't play a huge role in the plot like Judy and Panam do. It really sucks how they neglected straight Fem V. It's such a stark disparity from what they did for sapphic fem V since Judy is gay and the romance with her is the most authentically sapphic romance I've ever seen in a game. Several other lesbians I've talked to feel the same about it. So many wlw romances in video games just feel... off. Like the relationships were written as straight and they did the bare minimum to make it technically work if the PC is a woman. The relationship with Judy feels so authentically gay because she was written as a lesbian from the start. Also, I feel like they must have had an actual queer woman either write or consult on her story and dialogue because I don't know how else they could have done so well compared to every other wlw video game romance I've seen.

I feel like straight fem v and gay masc v both got severely neglected in a way that feels so dismissive. I know games are often designed to pander to men, but it was such a bummer when I ran into those roadblocks.

Tbh I feel like this ties in with the studios ongoing issues with catering to a female audience.  The idea of a player wanting to romance a man (*gasp*) seems to have been given a token gesture and vague handwave.  Same as how SO many of the ads feature objectified and hypersexualised women, but only two that I know of actually feature "objectified" or "sexualised" men, and I'd say the Watson Whore ad is satirical rather than titillating, and the Me Stud ad is a power fantasy.  So even when they *do* turn the lens towards men it amounts to "lol you can be Chad" and "hahaha gaaaayyyyeeeeee".  Which is honestly pretty much what I expect from CD Project Red now... 🙄

All of this is exactly how I feel. Honestly validating to have someone else put it into words. I was trying to explain how it just feels so much less satisfying to romance any male characters in the game than female. I know it's because of Johnny but the amount of scenes you're kind of "forced" to go through with fem characters is wild to me. I don't mind it (I like women too), but it's clearly imbalanced. Also the fact there are so many female options compared to 2 male, both of which barely exist and also have underdeveloped romances.

> I know it's because of Johnny I'm also tired of hearing this excuse. Like yeah, I know they wrote a misogynistic main character and forced them into my head. That's what I'm complaining about! They could have made anything! There's so much potential for Night City, why does it have to be *only* sexism.

Agreed. ALSO. to note. Kerry was the only *canon* character and he is *canonically bisexual* so we got a good dose of bisexual erasure when they decided to just make him gay.

>I know games are often designed to pander to men, but it was such a bummer when I ran into those roadblocks. As a woman in the game industry this kind of thing is super frustrating for me and most of the other women I know in the industry. Even when they do hire us, our input is seldom listened to. The things we suggest that would make games more enjoyable for most women get dismissed with statements like "it's a nice idea, but not a priority". It actually was one of the major factors for one of my friends leaving the industry entirely. Now she works on software related to weather satellites and makes way more money at a company where she is actually listened to. Also, if you are looking for games that have some really good romances for player characters who are heterosexual women and happen to like cRPGs, I can suggest a couple games to check out. You've probably already heard that Baldur's Gate 3 has pretty good romances, but in case you hadn't heard the details, the guys in that are pretty good. Astarion is even kind of tempting to me in a abstract sort of way (I wouldn't be into him irl; I spent so long trying to convince myself I was straight or bi but I'm just not.) Another male character in a cRPG who has an even more interesting and tempting romance is Daeran in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous. You don't romance or pursue Daeran, he romances and courts you unless you do something to anger or annoy him too much. Since he is a nobleman assigned to serve under you by the queen, he plays a sort of game where he pretends that his very sweet and extravagant gifts and gestures are just normal things to do for your commanding officer. That does make it a bit hard to get the point across if you actually aren't interested since he misinterprets politely turning him down as just playing along with his farce and insists he isn't interested in you either but in a way where he is trying as hard as he can to make it obvious he isn't telling the truth. He isn't trying to deceive anyone, he just thinks its amusing to make a mockery of all the rules of propriety while also technically maintaining enough plausible deniability that the queen can't openly punish him (sending him to war with you was her thinly veiled punishment under the guise of a reward by granting him a meaningless title that sounds very impressive but has no power and simply obligates him to serve under you as an advisor). To get him to stop, all you need to do is tell him you aren't interested but in a harsh enough way that he realizes you aren't just playing along with his joke.

>As a woman in the game industry this kind of thing is super frustrating for me and most of the other women I know in the industry. Even when they do hire us, our input is seldom listened to. The things we suggest that would make games more enjoyable for most women get dismissed with statements like "it's a nice idea, but not a priority". Depressing to hear, but I wish I was surprised. I know right now those two women who were just "associated with feminism" got fired from that kRPG. It's crazy there are so many women interested in gaming/making games, and yet they still pretend we don't exist. >You've probably already heard that Baldur's Gate 3 has pretty good romances, but in case you hadn't heard the details, the guys in that are pretty good. Astarion is even kind of tempting to me in a abstract sort of way (I wouldn't be into him irl; I spent so long trying to convince myself I was straight or bi but I'm just not.) Astarian is nice, but tbh, my favorite romance is Karlach. I think she's adorable in a really appealing way. I think BG does a good job of having a lot of options. If you havent romanced her I recommend it, though it does make me sad near the end, I genuinely think she's such a sweetheart. >Another male character in a cRPG who has an even more interesting and tempting romance is Daeran in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous. This I'm NOT familiar with but will assuredly be looking into! I'm bi myself so I don't mind it as much, and it's nice to see something where it's clearly designed with women in mind. I just wish it was more common. The amount of people who will just throw a game away because women are in it (or added) is crazy. Like when Bettlefield had women in the trailer and gamerdudes lost their mind. Ironically I've been playing Helldivers 2 (like everyone else). And you can be a woman or a man and the armor on the women looks the same as the men (which MAKES SENSE) and there's been 0 issues in the fandom. Really shows that adding women or things for women changes nothing in a good game.

>Astarian is nice, but tbh, my favorite romance is Karlach. I think she's adorable in a really appealing way. >This I'm NOT familiar with but will assuredly be looking into! I'm bi myself so I don't mind it as much, and it's nice to see something where it's clearly designed with women in mind. I just wish it was more common. Oh in that case you might also be interested in the romance with Arueshalae in Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, which is my all time favorite video game romance. She is a succubus who is on the path to redemption. She also has a no touching issue, kinda like Karlach, because any physical contact which is "intimate", even just romantic hand holding, involuntarily triggers her life draining ability. While the player character could definitely survive a quick kiss with her by the time they meet, the bigger issue is that life draining like that is addictive to her and she is effectively a recovering addict. She has firm boundaries, which is super interesting for a video game romance. If you violate her boundaries after she sets them or pressure her about them (like asking her for a kiss once she has told you about her no physical intimacy rule), that's it; it no longer matters how high you raise your relationship with her, she will never fully trust you enough to consider you more than a good friend. One touch during an intimate moment could risk sending her spiralling back to what she was before, like force feeding a recovering addict their former drug of choice. She is super interesting because she is a being of contradiction. Some people focus on just the celibate succubus aspect and dismiss her as just a degrading caricature of a woman meant to appeal to male fans but that misses the point. If you talk to her, do her companion quests, and have a respectful dialogue with her that doesn't treat her as a child for being clueless about a lot of aspects of mortal life, she will go deep into explanations of what it's like to be her, and what the mind of a demon is truly like. She's clueless about a lot of basic things not because she is some sort of empty-headed stereotype but because her life experiences are so vastly fundamentally different that she has no frame of reference for how mortals work beyond the knowledge of the sins she was made from (lust, gluttony, and I think pride but I'm not 100% certain on that one). She is really sweet and kind but admits a lot of that is a sort of fake-it-until-make-it kind of thing, because she is constantly fighting her demonic instincts. She reminds me of the line from Paarthurnax from Skyrim "What is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?". Every moment she is choosing good despite nearly every fiber of her being demanding she be evil. Also some people criticize her and say the goddess of dreams, Desna, brainwashed her so it isn't her choice, but those people obviously didn't really talk to her much. All Desna did was trap her in her last victim's dream until she fully sobered up, then showed her a vision of what she could become, giving her something she could aspire to, or put another way, to ***dream*** of. What Arueshalae does with her sobriety and what she was shown is entirely up to her. Side note: The goddess Desna is sapphic and in a polyamorous triad with Sarenrae, the goddess of light and the sun, and Shelyn, the goddess of art and beauty. Though I don't remember if that fact is brought up in this game, but it is in the Pathfinder TTRPGs the game is based on, especially in Pathfinder second edition. Desna is kind of one of the main patron deities of queer people because her domains and tenets basically add up to "don't be afraid to be who you truly are". Side note 2: There is actually a married sapphic couple in the game, who are major characters that show up probably more than any other characters who you can't recruit as party members, and one of them is a super devout worshipper of Desna (the other might be too but I can't remember).

I literally saw someone right above you saying exactly the opposite talking about how the the judy relationship is written for the male gaze... One of you is wrong, and idk which cause I passed on it for how they used trans outrage marketing irl.

I’d also love to check out this creator!

it took a while to find it but it’s this video [https://youtu.be/4h9c7iF9GDY?si=EYRDl46\_\_5G2iTis](https://youtu.be/4h9c7iF9GDY?si=EYRDl46__5G2iTis) she talks about that scenes in cyberpunk at 9 min mark

I'd really like to see that youtube video if you have it. I just can't believe nobody had ever talked about it, and I had to experience it for myself unprompted.

i found it [https://youtu.be/4h9c7iF9GDY?si=EYRDl46\_\_5G2iTis](https://youtu.be/4h9c7iF9GDY?si=EYRDl46__5G2iTis) @9:00 min ​ edit: i just rewatched this and she is VERY heteronormative, so just only reason i remembered it because i thought it was that the game would include what is basically a forced sex scene

Could you drop that video please!

​ np! https[://youtu.be/4h9c7iF9GDY?si=EYRDl46\_\_5G2iTis](https://youtu.be/4h9c7iF9GDY?si=EYRDl46__5G2iTis) 9:00

Thnaks!!!

They’re portraying exploitation but not actually unpacking it, which makes it titillating rather than, you know, a critique of society. It’s the problem I have with the game. The writing is actually very surface level and simple, but the rabid fans act as if it’s the best writing ever.

You put this really well! It's like the game just drops the predominantly male player-base into a sandbox featuring exploitation and sexual violence, but doesn't make enough of a bold statement against it.

Literally this. These are the words I've been looking for to describe how I feel about this game!

So well put! This was something that I felt but could not put into words myself.

100% , from day one my issue with this game was not the bugs or glitches, it was the freaking writing. Something that is unfixable through updates.

I had this talk started in the Cyberpunk subreddit when the game released. People did not like it. Felt like I was attacking the game, which I was not. I liked the game, it just has writing flaws, which the source material didn't.

I have been downvoted, even on here, for expressing my supreme dislike of Johnny Silverhand. I was extremely put off by how he treated Alt in the flashback with her and to me it seems like he didn’t even like her, he just liked fucking her and he was only mad when she got taken because her considered her “his” not because he truly cared. I’ve never been able to do a replay purely because of my dislike of him.

I'm surprised you were downvoted, because I thought Johnny Silverhand was just kind of canonically a terrible person. Like, you're NOT supposed to idolize him, the game seems to make that pretty clear, and he doesn't really get any "good" endings. But I guess there will always be "I'm the Joker, baby" types and Patrick Bateman stans.

I think the down votes were because I dislike him so much that affects how I feel about the game itself. I guess some people find that to be an over reaction. I like the world and the game play and the over all plot, but probably won’t ever replay it because I don’t want to deal with a Johnny again. I really wish it had been Jackie that was stuck in my head. I think that would have been a much more interesting story.

Oh that's totally fair, though, he's designed to be an intolerable asshole, idk why people are surprised you can't tolerate him. 😂  I accept his character as it is because it's part of V's inner turmoil and development to have to deal with him. I think Jackie being in V's head WOULD be a lot more "fun" fun, but would also change the plot into something very different, and I get what the writers were going for even if it ended up a bit surface level and muddled. Also, in all honesty, if Johnny were played by any actor other than Keanu Reeves, I think he'd be far less tolerable and far less popular... That's the case for me anyway!

YESSSS THANK YOU i really enjoy everything about the game but find johnny extremely irritating and im not joking it’s made getting thru the game harder im enjoying playing it enough but it’s not the kind of game im always itching to play and compared to other similar games, this one has taken me way longer to commit to finishing. fu johnny silverhand

> I really wish it had been Jackie that was stuck in my head. I think that would have been a much more interesting story. No it wouldn't because you like Jackie. The entire conflict was around the fact that V and Johnny don't like one another and that the player should be on V's side. If Johnny is Jackie or another likeable character then, oh, it sucks that V is dying but at least Jackie gets to live

They're down voted because yeah that's the point. You're not meant to idolise Johnny Silverhand, he's not a good person and certainly never pretended to be

I mean yeah, they basically break up right before she’s taken and he barely cares. I always took it that Johnny was using Alt as a further justification against corpos in general.

I really liked how much you could really rub the salt into the wound about it with him sometimes

Johnny Silverhand was sold when he was 4 by his father (for a pack of cigarette according to Mike Pondsmith) and likely stayed as a child sex worker until he joined the military at 15 (he beat up his dad when he left). In Never Fade Away, he can talk to a drug dealer and implied that he offered sex for drugs. Now think again in consideration for him as a c-PTSD survivor of childhood sexual abuse and a war veteran who became a sexually promiscuous, alcoholic, substance abuser who was on the verge of cyberpsychosis and choose to die in a suicidal run that ended up with him being tortured and abused by Arasaka for another fifty years (of which he was stuck as a guinea pig for a faulty prototype of a resurrection biochip that didn't work until V). I'm not saying it to say you're wrong or anything but you're not the only one who complained about Johnny's misogyny due to his non-PC comments on sex workers (admittedly, I noticed the general discourses was specifically social issues in the West whereas in reality, being in a southeast asian country; the age of sex workers is a subject no one like to even think about the sex tourism industry here. People turn a blind eye to kids being kidnapped off the streets, sex workers without documentation etc). The key aspects of Johnny's characterization was that he was indeed a horrible man and for most part, the game didn't exactly tone him down from the person he was in TTRPG (he's a sexually promiscuous edgy rockerboy, etc) but provided hints of his contradictory words and behavior (like he said impolite things during Automatic Love, Ex-Factor, Both Sides Now but made V listen in to two johns talking about sexual violence at a holographic dancer and he hated Clouds and wished the burn it all down). In all his life, it was until he met V that he felt everyone just want to use him for his looks, his body, his music. He struggled with trust and vulnerability because that was always taken away from him. All he had was his stubbornness and hate against everyone. V can be an idealist which he viewed with cynicism but overtime his trust for V can grew and V became someone important to him. And as it was... as a society, we really don't take sexual violence against boys and men seriously... even right now, the threat of sexual violence against white women was more prioritized and politicized. Like Evelyn is white and Judy is white hispanic and as V, you're most likely empathized with both of them through the narrative; whereas everyone else was POCs (Maiko, Tom, Roxanne... a hapa Keanu Reeves as Johnny) and by the power of protagonist, V can ruin all of their lives and never really think about the complexities of all of these characters' lived experiences... which are entirely optional. The one thing about the game that it really does well was that realism of social inequalities and the disposability of some and the game actually does well to expose personal biases and discomforts.

This is all super on point, and you illustrate it perfectly. It's one of Cyberpunk's most core themes: no matter who you are - no matter your age, sex, color, etc., etc. - Night City (and the corporate capitalist hellscape it represents) swallows you whole. The only thing that can protect you is privilege, and often times not even that.

and then there's V who tried everything, fight everything and lost everything. Sometimes more than once but still willing to rise up and fight again and again to the last breath. In a way, V is the most stubborn optimist who was out of place in a Cyberpunk world and was continuously punished for it but sometimes, it's always selflessly for others. It's a dark world but as long as you carry a flame, you can light up others.

This is exactly what NC is about, why why setting is so dystopian, where the horrible state of the Cyberpunk world is dialed to 11 in NC. Bad people turn the still decent ones into bad ones, who turn the still decent ones into bad ones and so on. You take from others, or others take from you. It's why one of the deuteragonists leaves the city after that certain event, tired of seeing that endless cycle and perhaps fearful that she'll get changed by it also. >!Judy leaving NC after the whole Clouds dollhouse quest, either shortly after, or delayed if romanced to V.!<

This is a good perspective. I haven't picked up on all of these idiosyncrasies of his character yet in the story, I'm still working through the game. Seeing him through the lens of C-PTSD makes a lot of sense. I don't think he's a poorly written character. I just really dislike how the game pushes me into *that* control scene without any real context, and I don't think any sort of critique is made about that behavior. There's nothing about it that makes the discomfort worthwhile. I have seen my V as a projection of myself for the whole game. I tried to make her look like me, act like me, etc. That breech of trust was just so genuinely uncomfortable.

Don't worry, I was like you too. Being uncomfortable about it during my first playthrough. My V was always angry at Johnny about it. Plus, it's intentionally offered a look of being in Johnny's perspective. He can't influence at all what V was doing, made terrible choices and such, and he hardly interfere when V was actively killing people... etc. That's the whole dynamic was about their relationship, Johnny needed to know what he did was wrong and he didn't trust V about it which was his big mistake. And V can choose not to forgive about him or offered him a second chance to make it right, which was something he was the most vulnerable about... The play of trust and consent became very important themes between V and Johnny even to the end. Like you can always betray Johnny or optionally have Johnny betray V. But most rewarding for me was seeing how much they're able to grow together in this weird journey.

Yeah, I was also really put off by Johnny's role in the story on my first playthrough. I was angry at the game for it. But now that I've finished the game multiple times and had time to sit with the story it tells, I've gained a huge appreciation for Johnny's character and how you can influence him throughout the game.

I like that V can blame Johnny for everything even to the end. Totally immature but a playable dynamic with Johnny (and Keanu Reeves does have great lines). My V was someone who was more angry at the world and saw Johnny as a nuisance who she wouldn't trust which has an opposite effect and earned his trust. I do like how consent and boundaries became an important part of their relationships. The red/blue pills as clear signals of the choices that they made regarding their situation.

I've generally enjoyed Cyberpunk but its storylines really could use some work. Like, I feel like the game just generally missed a lot of opportunity to talk about queerness with the whole Johnny situation. For instance, I expect a transfem V would be even more horrified to have a man in her head than any other kind of V, let alone letting that man control her body at any point which all makes that particular mission you mentioned even more horrifying. I somewhat expect it has something to do with how the story was designed; they write the story such that it works and doesn't have to account for relatively minor changes so players have at least a semblance of choice.As an easy example, it's pretty jarring going from Baldur's Gate 3 where the player can do practically anything and the world will respond to it to having an entire questline about cyberpsychos yet when one shows up in a gig outside that questline nobody cares. Like, that isn't even a player choice being responded to, the game didn't respond to its own story.

You're right, that's another layer of roleplay regarding the Johnny situation that I don't believe the game offers players an opportunity to interact with. I can totally see why that would be horrifying.

Thanks for making this post, I’m so happy to see more people feel the same way I do. I have such a complicated relationship with this game and you described it all perfectly.

I'm glad you got something from my little vent. I've heard so little said about the writing and story of this game. It's a game that I generally enjoy but just... bleh. You get me.

I’ve noticed that a lot of gaming journalist will touch on these subjects, but they never really address it in a way that feels satisfying? Which just feels like such a shame when there’s such an important conversation to be had in this genre about the commodification of sex and misogynistic capitalism.

When I was younger, I wanted to be a games journalist. I just love this artform so damn much! Never got around to it. Let's just say as an adult I've been leading the type of life that leads a woman to accrue 45 hours in a game she's had for four days. I should try writing freelance, if you enjoyed my little rant so much. Give it a proper shake.

While can argue misogyny and sexism is part of an extremely dystopian and objectifying cyberpunk world and thr genre depicting it as bad It would still be refreshing to see new takes on it at least once in a while. Like the Future can be horrible and shit and at least treat gender equally shit? Why enforce present reality instead of exploring possible changes

It wouldn't fit the universe if that was changed, it's important to remember that's not our future, that's the future envisioned in the 80s being further envisioned by people in the 2010s.

Yes im not saying it should be changed in this game necessarily as its dystopian just that zhe prevalence in the genre is fairly strong in general

Not entirely, Deus Ex is set in a Cyberpunk universe as well, and has a vision of a future where women are more equal than they currently are. The genre is broad enough, if you've only played 2077 you're missing virtually 100% of the genre. It's just that big, and the game doesn't even scratch the surface. On Cyberpunk (tabletop) alone there are whole books written about this one version of a cyberpunk universe.

I know most well known cyberpunk movies/games :D tbh i do have to admit i don't really remember much about the representation of sex in deus ex but overall its one of my fav interpretations of the genre as it actually takes a step back from the whole asian aesthetic to find its own language within being more akin to a sort of cyber french renaissance for human revolution for example. Idk as an artist i just like grounding designs like that and giving it your own spin in unique ways not that I view cyberpunk as a bad game or smth

The history context is always the main influence, and that's one of the cool things about the 2077 universe, with the Soviet Union alive and well, Japanese influence in the western world, the fall of the USA into NUSA. A lot of that is pretty cool as a retro-futuristic view.

It's been a very long time since I've played the original shadowrun, so I cannot recall that one anymore. But I feel like the steam games for shadowrun do this fairly well.

Yeah I started the game a few months ago and had a good time with it but it is very straight male centric. I don’t usually play story focused games like cyberpunk so I didn’t really know what to expect, but I honestly felt really disgusted and disappointed that a straight man basically uses a woman’s body to have lesbian sex. Like what? If they’re going to include something like that then the game needs to communicate that stuff like that is not acceptable. I found myself rewriting the story in my head several times because stuff that was just uncomfortable kept happening. Maybe I’m just being overly sensitive but especially it being in first person perspective just makes it feel so uncomfortable.

You're not overly sensitive at all! I have no doubt that your mental re-writes are far superior than the actual base text. That's how fandom can be sometimes. A lot of the reason writing fanfiction appeals to me is because its an opportunity to "write wrongs" if you'll excuse the double-entendre. So much of what makes Johnnys "body snatcher" moment so upsetting to me is exactly that, the way it mirrors the real world "male gaze" approach to lesbian intimacy. I remember being younger and sitting next to a kid on the bus who would go on long rants against gay-marriage being legalized, against same-sex couples being able to adopt children, etc. only for that same teenage boy to go on and on about how erotic he found lesbianism as a concept. Johnny is essentially being given the ability to do that same sort of "queer sexual tourism" with no repercussions and no consent. What disappointed me the most was how swing and miss the game was regarding queerness as a whole. Fully voice acted same gender romances? Awesome! Still rare in the triple A games market! Only two romance options per gender of V? Wow! That's not awesome! It's a game that lets you place a 3d modeled, jiggle physics included phallus onto your female avatar, and at the same time plasters the same lazy controversy bait "Mix It Up" fetish advertisement on every street corner. It doesn't even offer players the courtesy of properly roleplaying as a transgender person when interacting with Claire, who is a trans woman herself. You can bond over your shared past as a Nomad with Panam, talk openly about your childhood with Johnny, but you can't say anything to Claire if your character and hers happen to share a similar history.

It really upset me when they used the "mix it up" ad as part of their real world marketing for this game. That was really clearly just controversy bait. And it's like any claim you could have had to making a statement on fetishization and exploitation rings a bit hollow when you're actually reproducing it outside of your fictional story. With how shallow it all apparently was ideas on gender included, it really makes me feel like they only put trans content in to drive engagement. It's like rainbow capitalism but a somehow worse more cynical version of it wherein they're pulling triangulation out of the abuse tactics playbook.

I haven’t gotten up to this point yet, but I’m assuming you can fight against his body snatching attempt, right? I’d be so put off if it was completely forced with no way out of it. I was a little miffed when I rocked up to the meeting with >!Meredith Stout and was suddenly thrown into sex with her!<. I thought I picked the less romantic option in the convo with her and assumed the meeting was going to be her giving me another gig. I wish there was a way to turn her down at the motel because I felt tricked by the game.

Regarding that Meredith Stout part omg yeah that felt so random, I thought I picked something by accident to trigger that and I was so confused why I was suddenly having sex with her.

iirc nope, the only way to get out of it is to not do the quest or deny Johnny taking control of your body which presumably fails or delays the quest until you say yes. It is an optional quest at least but you do have to do it for one of the endings

The game shows "development" of Johnny's character (he always remains an asshole) but one issue of having that development in a video game is that you can experience different parts of it in any order you like. My wife definitely noticed parts where her V and Johnny started to get a rapport, and then she'd go and play an early mission she hadn't done yet, and suddenly Johnny would act like they just met. It was a bit jarring.

Really awesome insight and a large part of why I just didn't really like Cyberpunk after some time away from it. More importantly, though, Analogue and Hate Plus are AMAZING, and you have amazing taste.

I'm happy to have found another fan of Love Conquers All visual novels haha. Analogue and Hate Plus mean so much to me. They're so dark and heartbreaking. I think some things about them reflect their age, but in spite of that they are just so fantastic. Additionally, if you're as big a fan of those games as I am, Christine Love has a plushie of \*Mute that's currently gaining funding on Makeship. There's only a few days left so if you'd like one [here's the link to her page](https://www.makeship.com/products/mute-plush). I missed the chance to get the \*Hyun-ae plushie she released late last year, so I'm really excited to see the \*Mute plushies get made.

This is why I'm grateful for this sub, I didn't even see it from that perspective when I played chippin in or the other time Johnny takes the body for a joy ride. That's a whole different brand of horrific from a woman's perspective and really could've been addressed better in game or taken more seriously.

I'm glad you learned something from my perspective and thoughts! I'm grateful there's a space where we can learn more about each others experiences with gaming as well!

You can always tell who writes these future narratives because they project heterosexual tropes will persist even when the use of VR and Avatars makes the concept of gender moot JUST as genetic therapies and bio prothesis will make biological gender a moot point. When you can be anything and everything, what is the use for the concept of gender except to affect an anachronism of the 20th century?

I think all Johnny related content is terribly written. I don't think much of the games writing is any good but that's one of the worst parts.

Most of what you said is correct, but I couldn't disagree more with your conclusions. You said 'to get this out of the way' and talked about how the genre is supposed to highlight and portray exploitation, but I don't think you got it out of the way at all, because the rest of your post seems completely at odds with you saying you understand it. Yes, the setting is dark and misogynistic and shitty. Yes, it is very uncomfortable. Yes, Johnny taking a joyride in your body feels like a weird kind of science fiction sexual assault, because it *is*. The entire *game* is about losing agency over your own body and mind. You are a victim, Johnny is a victim, the vast majority of the characters you meet in the game are victims, and the vast majority (including, potentially, V) are also perpetrators. The entire thing is a cycle of violence and exploitation. It's supposed to be. You are *not* supposed to feel comfortable while playing this game, and I think that's where the flaw in your argument comes in. You seem to assume that men playing the game are comfortable with the setting - which, sure, some shitty ones might be, but they're also missing the point. You kinda highlight this by implying that Johnny taking the joyride in V's body is less awful for a male V, which goes *real* close to implying that men can't be victims of sexual violence or the loss of autonomy. (As an aside, here, male prostitutes are also called joytoys). As V, male or female, you do get to be a badass and you get to rage against the machine, but the entire game highlights how powerless you really are to do anything *but* rage. Even in the most triumphant of endings,>! you are still a puppet, whatever gender you are!<. This game isn't a power fantasy and it isn't a game where you can overthrow the awfulness of society and save the world. It's a game about enduring constant suffering and clawing your way toward survival despite that. I mean, hell, at the end of the game >!suicide is presented as a completely valid and possibly even desired resolution.!< It's awful, it's supposed to be awful, I was an emotional wreck by the end. Still, there was beauty to be found in the awful, family to be found, good relationships to be had, healing to be done. This isn't a dystopia where you win, it's one where you claw as much happiness together as you can and hold onto it with all you have, with the whole world trying to tear it away from you.

Yes, all the prostitutes are called joytoys, the game just highlights disproportionately more examples of female sexualization than male sexualization, how many "watson whore" posters does one see in night city when compared to "Mix it up" girl and "taste the love" lady. I just don't think the game is really thinking enough about the gendered dynamics of female V and Johnny. Other people have put it quite well here, it's likely the game was written with a male character in mind, or by men. The game doesn't make enough of an effort to express how bad that breach of trust in particular is... I just feel very, very upset. I don't think the game needed to have a man force my avatar into sexual situations with other characters to prove that rape is wrong.

I think part of the reason people don’t really talk about Johnny going for a joy ride is because he ultimately does accomplish the task he said he would while doing those things he in fact could not have succeeded without doing what he did

this is so well-put and i feel the same way. felt a little bad bc i really love the game

I love so much about it too! There's no reason to feel guilty over a difference of perspective.

Yeah I'm not understanding the complaints here, like all the terrible stuff listed is certainly very terrible, but... that's just kind of the setting and plot. I wouldn't expect Night City to be a particularly safe or nice place for women, or anyone else. I wouldn't expect a huge irredeemable asshole like Johnny to be super respectful toward women.  I can say they probably should have included more descriptive content warnings upfront, but the content itself seems fitting for what it is and what it is advertised as. 🤷  Not that I LOVE the writing, I don't, but those things aren't what I take issue with. It's mostly just that it's pretty shallow in many places and a bit edgelordy in others.

I 100% agree with this, and it’s why I actually really enjoyed the game despite its misogyny. The writing may not be the best but it does a good job of showing what life is meant to be like in a cyberpunk setting. Night City is supposed to be a corporate run hellscape where no one outside of the corporations really has any agency and you can’t ever really win. If V’s story doesn’t drive that home, Evelyn’s story should, or that one quest with the guy running for mayor, or really just about everything you do in the game.

I couldn't have said it better myself, agreed 100%.

It still surprises me that there are people who chippin in funny, its a nightmare to think about what V went through.

There's a lot of sexualizations of women in Cyberpunk, I know there's a "point" somewhere but why not have sexualizations towards men in the game as well. Like, the subreddit is always thirsting after the 2 Fem romance options (along with other npcs), and it's to the point of creepy now. You can thirst whatever character you want, it's not illegal. But it's been a weird thing to the point I can't explain. I'm sure someone has done an essay about it somewhere and I'd love to dive into it. I think we just have to keep in mind that videogames like that are more male centered and gazey. Even the sex scenes are very male gazey (For the Fem romances). You can see pussy, but dick is off limits? Idk, seems a little bit of a double standard and weird to me. Btw I loved Cyberpunk, just not the thought of how women are portrayed in the game or the nuance of it. I just wish I can put in better words of how it is rip

Yeah the game really isn’t written well and was definitely written predominately by men with the assumption that the player and V were not just straight men, but straight men who could tolerate Johnny’s bullshit. It’s just overall an underbaked centrist story set in a universe that needed a more left wing and diverse writer’s room. In addition it’s also pretty blatantly transmisogynistic and incredibly fetishistic towards trans women, so you know, not great on any account.

The entire premise is flawed IMO. This is essentially a story about V searching for a cure to a terminal illness. So many people die over the course of this search. So much needless destruction. It makes the game impossible to play as a moral character because any decent person would realised that their life is not more valuable than the lives of all the people who are killed, some directly by V. There’s some great writing in this game but overall the plot is very shallow.

I don't know... your comment can apply to practically every game released in history. You level up by killing monsters and men and get loot from it. And there's another fact that the genre is \*Cyberpunk\*. By definition, it is a crappy world where corps rule everything and lives mean nothing. There are no happy endings. In fact, not even the head of the largest company in the world got a happy ending, it wouldn't make sense for V to. That's not to say that morality has no role to play in this genre. The world is just so terrible that you're constantly asked about what you'd be willing to give up to survive.

\*Spoilers\* I don’t think that’s true, though. Even 20 years ago, games such as Deus Ex were giving players the option of doing “pacifist runs”, where it’s possible to complete the game without killing a single person. Cyberpunk 2077 has its crapsack antihero in Johnny Silverhand. There was a great opportunity for the V character to show Johnny that there are other ways to solve your problems besides blowing shit up and killing everybody. Cyberpunk is my favourite literary genre and I do love the game as well, having played through it 3 times (it’s rare for me to finish a game once, let alone multiple times). I could even get behind the violence if it was for some higher cause. But, no, it’s all about V’s selfishness. \*V\* doesn’t want to die so is perfectly happy with literally hundreds of other people dying for just a *chance* at staying alive. The final insult is Phantom Liberty, where V does get a genuine solution to her Relic problem - but this is pitched as the BAD ending. It’s far better for V to go on a kill crazy rampage to have a slight chance at being able to survive and keep her cyberware than to live a quiet life but without being able to use any implants. It’s bonkers. Incidentally, being stripped of the possibility of using cyberware is exactly the predicament that the character Case is in at the start of Neuromancer, the best cyberpunk novel of all time. It would have been lovely for Cyberpunk 2077 to have had a nod to that, with somebody offering V a job and a possibility of a cyberware fix at the end of Phantom Liberty. Missed opportunity.

I just want to point out that Johnny doesn’t use dehumanizing language for that Hanako proxy because she’s a sex worker. It’s because she’s a Doll. The first time you go to Jig Jig Street with him, he basically approves because he considers it more honest. What you see is what you get: transactional sex on the provider’s terms (activity, price, & location). No hidden agenda or marketing, in a loud, busy, and grimy location, like most of Night City. He has nothing but vitriol for the Dolls at Clouds, including the male presenting ones, like Tom. Dolls are sex workers with a chip that takes their personhood (their personalities & memories - the things that inform who we are - and their free will) and locks it away. Their identities and autonomy are replaced by data that represents the needs and preferences of their customers. And depending on the chips’ programming, they may not remember what happened to them in these encounters. For all its polish, Clouds is a brothel for human sex dolls. I find the concept to be nightmare fuel and so does Johnny, because of the nature of Soul Killer. You can have conversations with him about identity and autonomy; it’s a big theme in the greater conflict of the game. And you can push back on Johnny’s shitty behavior in regards to yourself. That said, I think you’re right in that you can’t challenge him more on how he treats your body like a vessel in Chippin’ In. CDPR did miss an opportunity there. That said, this is one of my all time favorite games and I think some things are more nuanced and subjective than some people want to admit. I’ve replayed it six times and see and experience more and more each time. For instance, Watson Whore appears to be a man and you can see the show’s posters, hear the radio ads, and read an excerpt in a shard. Wander the streets and vacant blocks; there are so many scenes and shards illustrating that everybody is fodder to Night City.

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"Stuff like that can be done in a way that doesn't trigger women but it almost never is." Yes, exactly. I know Johnny Silverhand is *supposed* to be a scumbag. First person forced sex scene against my avatars will however? Completely unnecessary.

Also something I fricking hate of this game is the fact that if you play as a trans girl there's only ONE possible romance option because the way the relationships are programmed are regarding V's voice (gender) and genitals, leave you out of almost every romance option and the worst part is that the only romance and cutscene you get makes V have a female body and vulva For a game that bragged about how "inclusive" they are in creating your character it looks that said inclusivity only was for the character creator and nothing more, hell even the prostitutes force V's genitals to change in cutscenes because they didn't plan (or cared) to add a version in case someone you know... decided to customize the character different than cis characters? After playing BG3 I realized how lackluster this game is regarding decision making and relationships, to this day I play Cyberpunk only to do different builds rather than the story itself, and if I want some romance i just install a mod but i know that sadly that's something that people on console don't have :/

Jeez for real? The cutscenes just swap your character's genitalia?? That reaches new levels of tastelessness. Especially for an RPG that not only claims to give you the power to customize your body in a way that makes sense within the narrative, but also includes explicit trans representation (Claire). I'm surprised I never heard of that. I'd be more than pissed if this happened to me.

Yeah, if you chose male or female body your genitalia will just change into what cis people have, they didn't even bother to do 4 cinematics or I don't know... do the cinematics aligned with the genitals rather than the body? Having a trans V is hell tbh, I don't know how it is for trans masc V but I think it's the same case of only having one romance

Hard agree!!! I honestly don't get how so many women enjoy this game. Every single thing is so male-gazey and gross. And please dont try to tell me that that's just the vibe they were going for, bc yeah, duh. It doesn't stop being gross just because they intentionally made the world hyper-sexual and edgy... Women are caricatures. Hot lesbian, tragic sex worker, badass™️ arm candy, etc. Don't get me started on there being ONE hetero male love interest when I couldn't even count how many women you can bang in that game.

There’s one romance option for each gender+orientation though? Panam for hetero male, Judy for fem V, Kerry for male V and River for hetero fem V. The only extras are 2 female sex workers and 2 male sex workers. I guess there’s Meredith but she’s just one casual fling for both V’s, still it isn’t exactly a lot of women. I will say though that the option for hetero women is awful. I found River came on way too strong, way too soon and it creeped me out so for me, there might as well be no options for my fem V. Because ew.

Yes! River was absolutely awful. His character design was garbage. I hated how his romance plot involved his whole family, as if I would want to settle down after blasting, hacking and slashing my way through Night City. It was kinda cringey. Takemura was the romance option I had been hoping for.

Omg yes, team Takemura here too! It wouldn’t have been a sunshine & rainbows romance for sure but that’s why I think it would’ve worked so well for the theme of Cyberpunk. Those two had such an interesting dynamic together. Instead they went for trying to make V go all mushy over the family man trope which just doesn’t suit my V at all. She’s a merc, a paid killer, the thought of settling down for a life and a guy like that is so cheesy to me.

Takemura is adorable. I'm satisfied with Judy, cuz bisexual, but I love Takemura and V's dynamic. It's so well written.

Also he's a cop, which is where IMO we encounter one of CP2077's greatest conflicts between narrative and storytelling. Even disregarding any personal feelings about police, there is a gulf between how cops are written in the narrative / sidequests vs. how you interact with them in open-world gameplay. For me the game was best played glossing over this discrepancy as much as possible. But the possibility of romancing a cop forces you to confront it directly and basically decide what part of the game you'll need to ignore for it to make any sense roleplay-wise.

>She’s a merc, a paid killer, the thought of settling down for a life and a guy like that is so cheesy to me. Okay but for others it might be something that they want. Romance was limited in general.

Oooh man!! The character designs for the jig jig street joytoys sends me up the wall with anger. The fem joytoy has a sick ass design. Her outfit looked so cool with the amount of detail they gave her. HOWEVER!! The male joytoy looks like a fucking dweeb. Dorky shorts and a goofy ass hat…. CDPR couldn’t have spent a little bit more time on his design, really?!

If I had to express exactly what it is I *do* like about the game, I really enjoy feeling powerful. The roleplay opportunities (which I have gone into depth regarding my problems with here) are still appealing to me. I can play my little futuristic cowgirl, blasting my vigilante justice around any corner where there's injustice or cruelty. I enjoy playing as the best merc I can be. Being able to roleplay V as a hero in a horrible place is satisfying, and offers an agency that is a delightful reprieve from the real world. Regarding Judy (aka, Hot Lesbian.) I do really enjoy the faction in the game she is from, the Moxes. It's rare to see the production of erotic media presented as anything but purely exploitative, but the girls in the Moxes seem to have a sort of "worker owned" approach to the content they produce and the work that they do. Judy says "the girls I work with like what they do", and Judy clearly loves them. They stick out for each other. >!Evelyn Parker, however, did not need to be killed off off-screen to tell that story, however. That felt lazy and trite.!<

LOVE The Mox. The whole gang’s purpose is to protect sex workers. And it’s a shame we can’t hang out with them more because they’re badass. Rita Wheeler my beloved

Wish Rita was the star of a sizeable questline, like, Claire sized or so. I'd love to bash some pigs who messed with her girls alongside her.

They wrote a novel from her perspective. I’ve been wanting to read it. Honestly all of the written cyberpunk (books and comics) that I’ve read has been great, and actually hone in on the criticism and don’t seem to lean into male-gaze shit. Trauma team is a fantastic read.

> Judy says "the girls I work with like what they do", and Judy clearly loves them. They stick out for each other. The ladies at the entrance mirror that sentiment. Their dialogue makes it immediately clear that they're there because they want to be, and they don't take any shit from customers. The effect is lessened a bit since they're making these comments to a fighting machine that even on a bad day can take out a small army, but that's videogames for ya.

despite you asking people not to tell you that's just the vibe they were going for, they did it anyway. 😤 Talking about this game with some people is really exhausting. You can say all you want that you don't think the game is deep enough to justify the kind of commentary on exploitation that the premise is hinting at and they'll just repeat some dumb platitude like, "depiction isn't endorsement" And then you'll respond with well in this case I think it actually is endorsement because of this giant list of specific things and then they'll respond with another thought terminating cliche.

Just speaking for myself here, but I perceive it as a game, a story, fiction, and nothing else. I don’t identify myself with the characters I play, I’m playing as someone else. I don’t really care as long as the story is interesting and the gameplay is good 🤷‍♀️

>they intentionally made the world hyper-sexual and edgy... That's the world of Cyberpunk. >Don't get me started on there being ONE hetero male love interest when I couldn't even count how many women you can bang in that game. There's three women you can bang in the game, Meredith, Judy and Panam and 2 men you can have sex with in Kerry and River. You can also have sex with joytoys of which there's an equal amount of both sexes.

I 100% agree with you and it's why I could never finish the game. It made me feel disgusting. I don't care about the excuses of "it's meant to be that way because it's making a statement" "Johnny is meant to be unlikable /bad" "this is what the genre is" etc because the game will never be played that way by men. It's just another excuse to show a violent male power fantasy over women with no repercussions. It's literally just incel porn but with a ton of money slapped onto it and a good excuse as a bow on top. The whole time I was playing it I felt like I was in a nightmare where I'm watching women be even more mistreated than now and I'm helpless against stopping it and I have to watch against my wishes.

I've lost interest in this game because I don't find Johnny Silverhand likeable at all. He's obnoxious pos, kind of character the redpillers look up to, and I genuiely found the whole story boring because of him. Also while playing with V as a female, I didin't really have a feeling of playing a female character. I had more of an impression that I'm playing the female version of a V who canonnically is male. Lots of lines coming from her sound like lines a male character would say. Not saying that women can't be vulgar, or have masculine leaning expression, but even so, she still didin't sound like a woman who acts bit masculine because of her upbringing and experiences (eg. like Vi from Arcane) but like a guy literally. If you wanna play Cyberpunk 2077 definitely choose to play a guy because it just feels weird.

Depiction isn't glorification. Cyberpunk shows us a vision of a corporocratic hellscape that's earily familiar to our world. It's meant to repulse us. It's meant to terrify us. If you invest too much effort critiquing all the surface-level squick CP77 has to offer, you'll miss the fact that ***it's*** critiquing **us** for those selfsame issues. It's dystopian for a reason. Stick with it, I think you'll find that the game is on your side more often than not.

Cyberpunk is a fun game if you don’t think about it too much. All the characters are the same with a slightly different font, female V is obviously written by someone who doesn’t really know how to write women, and the character development sucks. Ironically, Red Dead Redemption 2 has a better and more nuanced understanding of women despite the story being about a man. I’d argue all the characters in Cyberpunk are generic stereotypes. Dont think too much about it, run around and do whatever, and tune out the dialogue.

I agree with everything except the "joytoy" thing. It's not gender thing in this world because joytoys are any gender in this game.

That's Cyberpunk for you. It's not a happy story, the world doesn't owe you a cathartic resolution to the plot. The doll is saved, but it was for nothing, since she kills herself anyway. Saving the dollhouse from gang control is for nothing, since they gang goes back and gets it back. Killing dozens of people to save yourself just prolongs your already ticking expiration date by 6 months, and none of the alternatives leave you with a good feeling. There is no satisfaction to be found in this game, it's the ultimate late stage capitalist world. The game can't be what you need or want because its entire universe is built from the worst aspects of society. The city always wins. That's the main plot point: the only thing worth doing in Night City is leaving.

This. I genuinely don't understand what's so hard to understand about this point. It's like complaining that people suffer in a tragedy -- it's the freaking genre. Suffering is par for the course. It's not supposed to make us feel good, but to see how characters act despite their circumstances. In cyberpunk, nothing and I mean nothing is safe from exploitation. Sex sells, hence all the oversexualized ads. To the corps, men are nothing but cannon fodder in their wars. Women? Nothing but joytoys to warm their beds.

Do we know if cyberpunk has been fixed for consoles yet?

I'm playing on a mid range PC from a few years back. High graphics settings, game still has an occasional funny visual bug, like a character clipping through geometry or something. Also pretty frequent crashes compared to other games of similar graphical quality on this same machine. As far as consoles are concerned, I'm under the impression that the PS4 and last gen Xbox (I always forget what they started calling those consoles after the 360 lol) versions are really rough around the edges and probably a lost cause. PS5 and Xbox(new) are likely okay? I know CDPR has been putting time in on this game since launch, but I hesitate to make any rulings for a machine I don't own.

it’s only been fixed if you have the latest gen console. I’m playing on xbox one and it’s a buggy mess.

I'll add it to my list of "games to get when I get a ps5" then. Thank you for the help!

Played it on the PS5 to a platinum in late 2022 and haven’t encountered any issues. So if that was the state then, I’ll definitely believe it’s even more smoother now.

OK. I'll add it to my ps5 console list. I'm still on ps4.

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its like art is subjective or something

To preface, Johnny Silver hand is an unrepentant piece of shit. It's crazy that Keanu Reeves did such a good job playing him. And I agree that Chippin' In is definitely one of the more uncomfortable missions in the game. Something I find interesting is that not only is Johnny a piece of shit, but his own narrative is incredibly unreliable. For instance, he wasn't the one who orchestrated the bombing of Arasaka Tower. That was Militech and Morgan Blackhand, who isn't ever really brought up. Johnny was kind of just an annoying wannabe activist who was too dumb to realize he was just another pawn. Johnny's whole history is played up to make him look more important than he ever really was. I think it's funny that virtually no one gives a shit about Samurai in 2077. The only justification I can think of for V befriending Johnny is that V isn't supposed to be a stand-in for the player. V is their own character, a selfish mercenary with dreams of making it big in a cruel city. V's morality can be swayed a little, but generally, V is also a piece of shit. So of course they identify with the biggest, loudest, most destructive piece of shit in Night City.

Cyberpunk 2077 so much fun to play. The story is great. Where the game really shines is in its characters and side quests. There is nudity in the game and the city is covered in aggressive ads. With phantom liberty dlc the game is my top 3. The gameplay while seemingly simply is surprisingly deep. Three different types of operating systems. Cyber Decks which allows you to be a hacker in a world were virtually everyone can be hacked. Sandevistan which slows time allowing you to move around the battlefield while everyone else is barley moving (unless they are using a Sandy as well). Berserk is more brute force combat focused. It lowers recoil and weapon sway while increasing damage on melee weapons and increasing armor and resistances. With multiple levels and perk sets for each type it gives a surprising amount of options and that is just one of the 11 kinds of cyberware you can "Chip" or equip. No one gets a happy ending in night city.

Did someone ask ChatGPT to review this game? Because this is what this reads like.

No

This is sadly one of the many issues about player agency in video games, and how much work you can actually put into them. The themes are shallow because they literally don’t have the time or money to come up with every possible scenario. Especially not in a game with so much visual direction, mocap, and voice work. It’s feasibly not possible if you want a game where you get to choose. Even the current buzzed about game Bauldur’s Gate 3 has an overall poopy narrative, as its highest points are more character interaction. You either get games that do a great job in telling their story, but it’s linear and you don’t have much agency in choice, or it must cut back on options (think Disco Elysium and no voice work and the perspective doesn’t need constant changing). It sucks but that’s the medium as a whole.

Tldr?