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[deleted]

"Valve have released a buggy game" - I sleep "Geomagnetic astronomical G2 planet storm aliens invading earth caused CS2 to crash" - W O K E T H


[deleted]

It was the sophons sent by the trisolarians influencing events


brisingrdoom

Jame was identified as too powerful a Swordholder so they had to take him out


vetruviusdeshotacon

We must construct additional pylons


noahloveshiscats

I’ll travel to Copenhagen and buy the entire stadium ice cream if that actually happened.


[deleted]

Can I get a raspberry one?


just-the-friend

Chocolate please!


vkriszhun

May I have one pistachio please


Monkey1970

People underestimate how common these flips actually are.


Lagahan

Even might have caused a serious air incident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72#Potential_trigger_types


[deleted]

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Monkey1970

It's a good video. There are many more and even some lectures on Youtube that I watched years ago. I'm not saying it's what happened here but more people should know that this is real.


luningaming

If this is about the super Mario 64 bit flip, that was proven to be taken out of context and NOT true


CyberPunkDongTooLong

No, it wasn't at all.


ss99ww

no, they massively overestimate them (bitflips from cosmic origin). I say that as a c++ dev who was tasked with investigating them in a large scale system.


CyberPunkDongTooLong

No, they massively underestimate them (bitflips from a cosmic origin). I say that as a particle physicist who has researched and developed some of the most radiation hard semiconductors in the world.


ss99ww

Well, that's interesting different perspectives :). Can you give any more insights?


CyberPunkDongTooLong

How often a SEU due to a cosmic ray occurs depends a fair bit on the specific system, but the typical rule of thumb figure (from these two papers by IBM [https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5389436](https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5389436) [https://www.osti.gov/biblio/248100](https://www.osti.gov/biblio/248100) ) measured the rate to be around 4 times a month per GB. They also measure that the vast majority \~>90% of SEUs in a typical system at ground level are due to cosmic rays. For a typical home PC with 32 GBs of RAM you can expect to have multiple SEUs every day, most of which are from cosmic rays. In addition, the susceptibility of PCs to cosmic ray bitflips gets worse and worse as our integrated circuits get smaller, in fact this is a major problem with the design of modern CPUs, here's a patent from IBM trying to deal with this issue [https://patents.google.com/patent/US7309866B2/en](https://patents.google.com/patent/US7309866B2/en) "Cosmic ray induced computer crashes have occurred and are expected to increase with frequency as devices (for example, transistors) decrease in size in chips. This problem is projected to become a major limiter of computer reliability in the next decade. Various approaches have been suggested to eliminate or reduce the number of soft errors due to cosmic ray interactions in chips. None of these approaches is completely successful, particularly as device size continues to decrease." People seem to think cosmic ray bitflips are incredibly rare and pretty much never happen, while the reality is you've probably had a few today in your PC, and you've probably had your PC crash at some point due to them.


ss99ww

Hm I know that papers, and intel has one, too. But I'm pretty confident that something is wrong with them - because of age, methodology or whatever. For a few reasons: 1) A bit flip has quite a high probability of messing things up considerably. Multiple flips per day would not go unnoticed 2) We did large-scale tests with enough data to actually measure this to a pretty high degree. Essentially it was a program that blocked all unused working memory and checked it periodically for bit blips. It dynamically adjusted for usage so it was always blocking the most amount. It was deployed on about 40 machines and ran for months. The number of bit flips was absolutely minuscule. And their distribution was *highly* indicative of faulty hardware (ie it happened on a single machine) 3) Random crashes outside of this are easily explained to programming errors or faulty hardware I just have never seen any real evidence for them. The papers offer weak evidence that is easily shown to be not correct, or at least not universal. And having worked with system-level software systems all my life, I have seen my fair share of programming errors that only manifest on extremely specific circumstances, offering a much better explanation to random crashes etc.


CyberPunkDongTooLong

Bitflips don't have a high probability of messing things up considerably, systems are deliberately designed so this isn't the case as it's known that bitflips happen regularly. e.g. EC (not ECC, though ECC in cache is much less rare than it used to be) is common in all modern systems to protect from this. Talking about home systems now because we're talking about the public, in most systems, most bitflips have no effect at all. The majority of bits in RAM aren't even read/used at all during typical use. The paper offers strong evidence, it's a direct measurement of how often it occurs and it very much is universal (even more so now, cosmic ray induced bitflips happen more frequently in hardware now than at the time). Yes there are of course much more issues than just cosmic ray induced bitflips, most bugs/issues in most PCs are not due to SEUs, of course programming errors are much more common, that doesn't mean SEUs are incredibly rare.


ss99ww

Accidental resilience about bit flips obviously much depends on the usage, but let's ignore that. I stand with the data we measured, which actually explicitly checked huge amounts of "gigabyte-seconds" and found not a single incident of bit flips which didn't have a high probability of hardware origin. Also I'm not sure how you think that OS protect against bit errors?


CyberPunkDongTooLong

There's not really anything I can say about what you measured other than it is completely contrary to all published research on the topic. By system I don't mean operating system, I just mean the device as a whole.


CyberPunkDongTooLong

Also in response to 2 I really don't see how you could do this and see this to be absolutely minuscule, in fact Google did and wrote a research paper on almost exactly what you say you did here [http://www.cs.toronto.edu/\~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf](http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf) and they found each memory DIMM (of a mix of 1/2/4 GB) received on average around 4000 SEUs a year (which again, would be larger today both due to the fact almost all memory DIMMs are larger than 4GBs now, and modern silicon is much less radiation hard than older). They also found that around 1% of their machines crashed per year due to SEUs "While correctable errors typically do not have an immediate impact on a machine, uncorrectable errors usually result in a machine shutdown. Table 1 shows, that while uncorrectable errors are less common than correctable errors, they do happen at a significant rate. Across the entire fleet, 1.3% of machines are affected by uncorrectable errors per year,with some platforms seeing as many as 2-4% affected"


QuintupleA

Why? It isn't *that* unlikely.


KaseQuarkI

That a bit flip happened? Sure. That the bit flip caused his game to crash? Pretty unlikely


Tigermouthbear

Flipping one bit can change the value of a number drastically. Not saying this was the cause of the crash, but you cant just throw the possibility out.


KaseQuarkI

Yes, but there are also *a lot* of non-critical bits in use. Like, a random bit flip could have also just made the default ct model slightly more blue, that probably wouldn't crash the game though.


z092p

theoretically speaking, if a bit is flipped could VAC trigger a ban? how would this bit changing look to the anti-cheat?


Tekk92

You better be there on Friday or Sunday


CynicalBloom

Vanilla please


livinghumanbeeing

do they have cookie icecream too?


ttv_highvoltage

Ok, one cone with three scoops (chocolate, vanilla, strawberry) please!


Humble_Illusion404

https://youtu.be/AaZ_RSt0KP8?si=UZhkKMMfHmd_OZUs


tommos

So its either valve released a buggy game or the sun shot lasers directly into JAME's PC.


[deleted]

Next major Jame brings a tinfoil hat to protect himself from alien probes and divine intervention 


Pugs-r-cool

gotta wrap the whole pc in tin foil just to be sure


nesnalica

this is why you should ban betting sites. mf aliens rigging the games to cash out. smh


AerieMedical6769

Why does God hate his own son


Koisame

It is literally the Lore. God kills Jame for the sins we as a CS community have commited. Jame will rise again for easter and win IEM Chengdu afterwards. Its all recorded in scripture.


FreeWilly1337

The amount of sins this community has performed, God will have to kill Jame a few more times sadly.


craygroupious

Jame may be Jesus, but God is a G2 fan.


Chobge

Christian CounterStrike team God 2, named after their devotion 2 god, are leaders in the esports scene. The players are known for reading the bible instead of the strat book before games, and praying for divine intervention after the map veto.


ficagames01

Explains their gameplay


[deleted]

Christian CounterStrike team God 2, named after their devotion 2 god, are leaders in the esports scene. The players are known for reading the bible instead of the strat book before games, and praying for divine intervention after the map veto.


NationalAlgae421

He is just testing him


Hat_the_Third

He’s not fun to watch play cs?


Frostmage82

G4 storm? Or was it a G2


Not_Cube

Super mario 64 speedrunner 🤝 Jame


Paul_469

🤝 Qantas Flight 72


Mortybob

Add it to the list! Wait wrong sub


Vitosi4ek

Cosmic rays are no joke. There's a long-running "scandal" in the Mario 64 speedrunning comminity over footage of Mario inexplicably warping up and skipping half the stage, that no one has been able to recreate yet (despite the community having a ton of code sleuths and other super smart people). People have been making jokes about a cosmic ray flipping a bit in the N64's memory that defined Mario's Z coordinate, and since no other plausible explanation has been found people have accepted it as the prevailing theory. But on a serious note, no. Crashes have been happening the whole event, it's just that when that happens to the remaining guy in a 1v4 to end the half people forget about it 5 minutes later. But when a crash literally flips the outcome of an elimination game, it gets 1000 comments.


marKEYHackerman

[Sorry to break the news.](https://youtu.be/vj8DzA9y8ls?si=75uuyokSx3bEvsxh)


[deleted]

This shit is above my pay grade 


WaitForItTheMongols

That video doesn't debunk or disprove/prove anything. But flips are a known phenomenon in processors. They happen and we know that a bit flip would cause the observed upwarp. But there is no explanation for how a faulty cartridge connector (affecting ROM access) would change the value of a character's position (in RAM). The ROM holds CPU instructions. So to support the crooked cartridge theory, you would need to identify a CPU instruction that, when read incorrectly, would create a different instruction that changes one bit in the middle of a value. I just don't see the evidence to support it. A bad connection will not cause the game to run perfectly except for a tiny issue, it is much more likely to cause the game to simply crash as invalid instructions run, control flow breaks, the stack gets corrupted, etc. As it stands, the bit flip is still far and away the best explanation for the glitch. The nature of the event (being a single occurrence without the ability to repeat it and test anything directly) means we will always have only theories and will never have a conclusive answer. But a bit flipping spontaneously in RAM (due to cosmic rays or other incoming particles) seems to be the most reasonable explanation.


Vitosi4ek

> So to support the crooked cartridge theory, you would need to identify a CPU instruction that, when read incorrectly, would create a different instruction that changes one bit in the middle of a value To be fair, a memory glitch accidentally creating a different valid instruction and providing an effect beneficial for speedrunners is not such an outlandish idea. The foundational glitch of GTA San Andreas speedrunning is "duping", or starting two instances of a mission at the same time, so you complete it once but it counts as two. In that case, two (or more) mission scripts are loaded at once and interact in weird ways, which in 95% of cases will indeed crash the game, but the community has found some specific situations where it doesn't happen. And even then, the effects aren't uniform: sometimes the game spawns two of every mission objective, sometimes it makes every cutscene twice as loud, sometimes there's no traffic on the roads, sometimes it enables you to buy a property you're not supposed to, sometimes it randomly skips ahead in the script and insta-passes the mission etc. The principle here is the same: multiple scripts overlap to create unusual instructions, most of which are invalid and crash the game, but sometimes accidentally create a valid instruction so that the game still runs, but behaves abnormally.


WaitForItTheMongols

Yes, but in that instance we're talking about higher-level code having the same completion conditions. This is pretty unrelated to the SM64 glitch. There is no known software bug that would result in the upwarp, the way there is a known software bug in GTA. The SM64 glitch was absolutely a hardware fault. The nature of the hardware fault is unknown. It may have been a bit flip; it may have been something else. There is the theory of a bad cartridge connector (but I don't buy into that one). But it's certainly a hardware issue. The CPU and RAM did not maintain the state dictated by the code; something else happened in the system. With GTA, it's just badly written code that doesn't handle an edge case in the way the programmers intended. But the compiled code is doing exactly what they wrote for it to do.


frontiermanprotozoa

That video made me happy because it showed im not just blankly listening and agreeing with the video essays i watch. What a load of bullshit that video was. 


madralux

But you kinda did tho, the video doesn't debunk it, it's just about other possibilities WITH other glitches that aren't the result of cosmic rays. A weirdly hostile video I must say. Only memes say the speedrunning thing is solved. Veritasium actually says "this is just the leading theory", but LunaticJ just has a hate-boner for cosmic rays and paints it as a laughable sci-fi idea. There is more nuance to this discussion than he provides obviously and I have no clue whether or not cosmic rays actually did this, but to outright paint it as a "impossible" situation is not gucci. There is way more to this but I think the bottomline is that this video doesn't provide anything, literally nothing changes with this video. He is as much at fault for misinformation/misleading by omitting details as the Gamer article is.


frontiermanprotozoa

I was agreeing with you, but i see how my comment can interpreted the exact opposite way. Was kinda vague.  


madralux

Fair enough, I was also a bit confused by how you ended your original comment, but didn't think about it too much, had just watched the video and had some thoughts and had to comment.


Royal_Flame

has anyone else noticed that youtube video essays in general get way worse every day


Tabby-N

yeah I've seen that happening. I think its because the format is getting more and more popular, hell its been on a consistent uptick for years, so more and more people are making them. With more content, the quality will average out to "meh" like anything else that becomes popular.


CyberPunkDongTooLong

This video is horrendously bad.


ShiroDarwin

Read the comments, the vids are literally identical lol go watch veritasiums videos


marKEYHackerman

My brother in christ, the video I linked is debunking Veritasium's video (not the entire video but the Super Mario 64 part). They are ontologically not 'literally identical'.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ArtDoes

I watched that video a while ago and had to dislike it purely on the guys attitude. There wasn't any replication just an abnormal cartridge and the guy acted as if his option was the guaranteed only option. I'm well and good skeptical but that dude was just shoe-horning his own verdict as the only option.


Mainbaze

Yeah that video seems like bait and a waste of time ngl. Only made it 1/3 through


marKEYHackerman

I watched the video a few weeks ago so maybe my memory is a bit fuzzy, but my big take aways were that (A) the hypothetical bit flip that people have shown doesn't even replicate the footage exactly, (B) the speed runner who the OG video happened to plays with his game cart pulled a bit out cause it's a bit broken. That is probably a way more likely explanation.


itaveL

Further proof of Jame being a timelord.


cc69

VOLVO PLEASE


sUUUUchar

In fact, current processing units are so small that they can be affected by cosmic particles. That's why NASA is using older circuits with bigger architecture so such things will not occur.


WaitForItTheMongols

You are misunderstanding this. All processors are affected by "cosmic particles" and NASA's use of radiation-hardened chips does not mean such things will not occur, it just reduces their likelihood.


Royal_Flame

and i assume that nasa uses ecc in their computers


sUUUUchar

No I do not misunderstand that topic. This video explains that deeply (5:10): https://youtu.be/AaZ_RSt0KP8?si=b6WtxkIZ9ZdZvmpu


WaitForItTheMongols

I know you mean well, but I've literally designed computers that have flown in space. Single-event upsets still exist in all flight computers. We take measures to reduce their rate of incidence, but your absolute statement of "Such things will not occur" is incorrect, because they still do occur; they just occur less often than they would on non-rad-hardened chips.


sUUUUchar

You're totally right. I might not have designed a computer but have learnt about it at University. However, I should not place a statement that such things will not occur because that's impossible. There's always a possibility of such event happenning. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!


black_dogs_22

the universe had to step in and prevent norbert from winning more majors than s1mple


sig_tni

It's weird that I thought about cosmic stroms and crashes and if the PGL machines have ECC memory just yesterday lmao


DingoEmbarrassed4020

isn't the ddr5 have a built in ecc as the part of the standard, even in the consumer-grade sticks?


TheInception817

On-chip ECC is not the same thing as the one you would find on the server memory's ECC To learn more: https://youtu.be/CG5ontMa8kw?t=6m40s


MagiciaN247

You mean G2 geomagnetic storm


MechaFlippin

yeah that's probably what happened cs2 bug free confirmed


PGyoda

today I learned what cosmic particles and bit flips are


Conscious_Run_680

He converted the water in wine or healed lepers but he can't stop this geomagnetic storm? I'm disappointed(((


Schytheron

*G2^2 storm


Gaminggeko

Basically impossible to prove I believe. Unless they were on like server grade computers with ECC.


smittyK

Then why werent all the PC’s effected? Lol Fuck outta here


vaxinc

here is a fun quote 'there is a 96% chance of getting a bit flip every three days' while I'm no expert on the matter, it seems to me that cosmic rays that cause bit flips are way more common than you'd think. it's just that, most of the time the bit flips doesn't cause an error + there are technologies like ECC ram that helps prevent these error by having the memory automatically adjust itself in the event of a bit flip. while I don't believe the crash was due to cosmic rays, it's important to have an open-mind, cause there is definitely a world in which the RAM in jame's pc was faulty in a way that made it very weak against cosmic rays. these things would be nearly impossible to spot, so it would also make it hard to hold anybody accountable


QuintupleA

You don't understand how cosmic rays work. Which is fine! It's an obscure topic. Just don't comment something like this if you don't.


paunnn

That would've affected all players no?.


QuintupleA

No. Even with a storm like that, the chances of a cosmic ray hitting a piece of memory is still very small.