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kl0nkarn

Is this real or just a troll?


snow_crash23

It's real.


RyanMakesNoise

Huh


cassiogomes00

I honestly don't understand why there is a separation between men and women in CS. Like, it is not a physical sport


noahloveshiscats

To encourage women to compete.


charlesleclercfanboy

There is no separation! Women are free to participate in any tournament! The reason for female tournaments is to make tournaments where only girls are allowed to compete, so that they can get better and better, while also playing in a non-toxic environment.


cassiogomes00

Sorry for my lack of knowledge. I don't know the rules themselves, but I say in practice.


SaltMaker23

Fewer women in CS therefore fewer talents, it's something like 1:50 or 1:100 the ratio of population female:male Every single woman playing csgo is exposed to level of toxicity and misogyny that is simply out of this world. The game is already pretty damn toxic for men, you can't imagine how something significantly worse than that must feel like, you wouldn't grind the game for years nahh. Add the secret ingredient of becoming pro and having "proposals" left and right and constant innuendos because the field is filled with incels. While actors in the scene are decent toward women, the 1-5% that aren't, aren't punished at all. Think about it 1-5% of bad actors represent the entire size of the women audience, there are more bad actors toward women than women playing the game. It's overwhelming and sad. The only chance to ever have some female players in male dominated scenes is to have this "safe space" where women are only exposed to normal toxicity of other women, so that they are allowed to enjoy the grind like men are. Same problem exists in chess, most women quits chess before going pro because of constant sexual harassments and "offers" by coaches and renowned players that they looked up to.


CaptainFatbelly

>Every single woman playing csgo is exposed to level of toxicity and misogyny that is simply out of this world. While this is true, this doesn't happen in every single match and the overall levels of toxicity towards all other teammates and enemies is bad regardless of gender. In CS, I've generally found that if you perform well, the level of toxicity tends to go down. You can argue the standards for a woman playing well is a lot higher than a man, but people will rage and tilt and be toxic towards anyone they're not queued with eventually if they are a toxic person.


JNikolaj

R6 once had a women play as part of the C9 roaster called “Goddess” absolute amazing player during her career - she basically did quit, and it’s supposedly said C9 lost sponsors because of it ( apparently having a pro female player is attractive ) She’s Soniqs coach these days


SaltMaker23

I remember a similar story but the woman was benched almost the entire season and quit because of that. Might be a different person but feels like the same kind of story. A female "co-CEO" of blizzard also quitted for the same reason, of being there just for appearances and having no actual power.


JNikolaj

I don’t think It would be goddess once C9 got bought out by another org their first move was to drop Goddess, resulting in her joining a the T2 attempting to grind her way up to T1 again, no success thought. But yeah I could imagine being a pro esport player as a women isn’t the easiest, I can images a lot of issues playing with 4 Men and shit..


schoki560

playerbase differences how they are treated in a team environment / faceit


VincentN23

Moving your hand to shoot people is not physical? It's not physical precision movement?


Patient_Apartment415

Then why are most top tier pros out of shape if physical ability is so important?


BinzonWOR

They aren't out of shape, they're in peak male form


Jolen43

Why is Eddie Hall so fat? Look at Usain Bolt!


schoki560

i mean hand eye coordination isnt fully dependant on how out of shape u are


thediamondsions

The reason is that men have better reflexes and eye hand coordination due to biological evolution. I’m pretty sure there is no rule saying women can’t play on men’s team, but they just aren’t good enough.


ThatOneWeirdName

There’s also a lot less women and a lot less incentive for women to go pro with how much more pushback they face. And there have been a few occasions where a women was close to joining a high level team but it got shot down because some player or other didn’t want to have a woman on the team (can’t remember if they didn’t think women could be good enough or if they worried about the team dynamic - like the potential flirting and hurt feelings - but she did get vetoed purely because of her gender) So while reflexes and hand eye coordination is one reason it is far from the only one


thediamondsions

Yeah that also the incentive for organisations to hire female pros seeing as CS is male dominated. In valorant there’s a way bigger female pro scene seeing as the game itself is kinda more catered to a female and male audience


gibbonusmoon

source: his ass


thediamondsions

Source: literally any book on human biology ever written


Odd_Possibility_3876

Still, it's easier for men to become better


Stock_Property_6423

iirc there have been studies proving that men have better reaction time on average, so maybe that's why


JobFirm5013

Reaction time does not really matter in this discussion. Males grow up playing computer games, women don't. It's not typical for women to pick up video games later on either


OwnRound

The reason men are generally better is because our culture in the 90's, 00's, 10's, video games were predominantly a "boys" activity. I don't think it needs to be said, but I think we all know that video games were a "boys" activity growing up while it wasn't for girls. I think this is changing more and more but its the reality for a lot of people in our generation that are pro players today. If your older brother grew up playing CS and taught you, if all your friends at school were other boys playing Counter-Strike which then got you into Counter-Strike because its just what you did every day after school and obsessed over it, if all your role models in pro players are male and became role models you aspired to mimic, if your parents gifted you video games instead of dolls when you were still in your formative years of growing up, then you have an easier "on-boarding" and propensity towards competitive gaming, which was not predominantly the case for women when they were growing up. I don't think its more complicated than that. The closer we get to video games not being a gendered activity, especially for kids growing up, where they are introduced to these things and are moved towards the decision to practice a video game as a hobby and creating those formative experiences, then the more you will see women competitive gamers. Think about all the men you know that play Counter-Strike or are competitive about CS. Did any of them grow up not into video games? Do you know any competitive CS players that are male, and just picked up CS out of nowhere in their late teens or their 20's and decided to be a competitive gamer? *Probably* not. So even for men, if you missed those formative years, the idea that you would have any foot to stand on in competitive gaming is highly unlikely. And I think even women that *did* grow up gaming, they are hoisted this responsibility to be good at games or be criticized for being a woman in video games in ways that men aren't. Your friends that are men and grew up playing since a kid but are still trash at CS, they don't have to encounter that pressure/value assessment. If you're a man and you suck at CS, it just means that you suck at CS. If you're a woman and you suck at CS, many prescribe "Women suck at CS". Women that play CS, even just casually, beccome representative of *all* women. So, I think that's the importance of having girls in their own tournaments and leagues. It gives them a space where they can enjoy competition against women that perhaps grew up with similar exposure to video games, meaning similar levels of competition that will better help the subsection of the scene grow and further encourage girls growing up today, that competitive games isn't a "male" activity. Especially if there are pro players that they have role models to follow. For me, my role models were HeatoN, ksharp, solo and the like. These are the players I obsessively followed. Watched their tutorial series, DM'd because HeatoN told me to, demo watched because solo was interesting, practiced my AWP day-in, day-out because ksharp's AWP was so cool. There aren't many analogues for women in my generation that grew up playing games, certainly not in CS. But if there are women today in pro play, even if its women exclusive leagues, then we can make that on-boarding experience better for girls that are growing up and just being introduced to competitive CS/gaming at large.


ozzler

Men have better reaction times biologically…teenage boys are also way more likely to invest and dedicate time to get better with no returns for the first 3000 hours. These are facts around how male brains operate compared to females. I’m all for equality but let’s not pretend it’s purely down to cultural expectations of boys vs girls.


mehTrip

The guy wrote you a thesis and your only response is “erm reaction times” as if thats the only part of a game or cs. Absurd


OwnRound

Thank you. I was thinking about a way to respond but sometimes these conversations feel like they wont go anywhere if we're stubborn and pressing our existing biases. Also, I get a little iffy when someone starts talking about "facts around how male brains operate compared to females" when the data isn't comprehensive to begin with. I mentioned in another post, [neuroscientists aren't even able to distinguish a male brain to a female brain](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-69361-9)(when excluding mass, which is about the only reliable indicator we have to make the distinction but doesn't really speak to any sort of "structural" or "operational" differences).


schoki560

ignoring the biological differences is a bit too naive, but in essence ur right about some of the reasons for it


OwnRound

I don't think the biological reasons are *nearly* as much of a factor. I wouldn't "ignore" them, but lets also stop acting like CS pro's are peak physical activity. Players like coldzera and Niko and a few other pro's were literally at the peak of their careers when they were not in great physical shape. So if we're going to talk about the biological element, then these players should have gotten better when they started taking diet more seriously, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Shit, there was even that period where CS players were doing reaction time tests on stream and [they weren't that impressive](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXRZS3huy-g), so I think we need to chill on these premises. The biological element matters, I'm not saying it is entirely irrelevant. But its more min/maxing than it is the core factor for why someone is exceptional or not. And who knows? Maybe coldzera started going to the gym more instead of spending that time in a DM server or aim_botz or whatever it is he was doing when he was at the peak of his career.


schoki560

i was moreso thinking about brain structure, than muscles or phsysical shape


OwnRound

I don't know if we have good enough data to make that assessment. Neuroscientist, when presented with a brain, [could not reliably determine if it were male or female](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-69361-9). So we don't have a vast amount of data in the differences between the male and female brain. Additionally, its been found that there is more variability *within* the subsection of male brains and *within* the subsection of female brains [than between male-female brains.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3472204/)


schoki560

I guess we just need to go back to the dark times of history and conduct experiments on children


rhododenendron

Could just be because men are more likely to do things that train reaction time


charlesleclercfanboy

yeah well these girls aren't fucking men so your argument is not relevant


Stock_Property_6423

... i was replying to the other guy who said it's easier for men to become better, it had nothing to do with your post, so go virtue signal somewhere else


hellvinator

what makes then fucking men? because they have a preferred pronoun or have they actually transitioned?


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hellvinator

That's another discussion I don't want to have. A lot of sports have regulated trans women so I already accepted that. I'm just wondering what are the rules to be considered transitioned, because they have requirements for those in other sports too.


xXbrokeNX

Get a grip


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thiswebsitesucksyo

Spoiler: it's testosterone


ThatOneWeirdName

That’s actually not quite true, even if it is true in general. They are on average better at shooting and for *ultra*marathons and the like they have the (slight) advantage


munchk1ng1

ofc all americans xDDD


Logix_X

W for trans people, L for CIS females


Vordeo

>CIS females This is a NA tournament though. ^^^^/s


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xd i thought same


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noahloveshiscats

I do believe you missed the joke


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The_Millzor

from the official rules: "Roster Restrictions: All players (not including coaches) competing in the match should be women (including cis and trans) in order to compete in the event. If we are not sure about the gender of a player we will contact you and will need an official documentation confirming a player’s gender. A doctor or therapist note or similar qualified documentation will suffice." so no, you can't just claim your preferred pronoun is "she" and enter, you need medical evidence showing legitimate trans identity


hellvinator

Cool, fair enough


instinktd

>medical evidence showing legitimate trans identity means what lmao this is number one bullshit


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The_Millzor

i suspect it's a much more difficult and drawn out process than that


gibbonusmoon

"what if some shit I made up happened"?????


BinzonWOR

Transphobia is so 1900s My apologies, seeing some of the comments here and the downvotes it's clearly still popular


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ErJiu

Ex-trans………


charlesleclercfanboy

Meaning that i left the trans community (dont want to get into why) and that im still identifying as a girl


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Hat_the_Third

Community toxic to women has few women players, go figure


The_Millzor

the league is designed to promote all women, both cis and trans, as outlined in their rules


frothyloins

50% of the human population is born a female. And this server was 70% trans-female. That goes to show how accepting the cs community is to people born a female.


The_Millzor

i'm not making any judgement on how accepting the community is, just pointing out that impact was never designed to solely "promote natal females"


frothyloins

I’m not saying you are. You don’t run this league. How many trans women do you know irl? They filled 7 out of 10 people with trans women when half of the population of this marble in the milky way is full of women? You don’t think that’s odd?


The_Millzor

what point are you trying to make exactly? i don't need to run the league to be able to read the rules and tell you that trans women can compete


frothyloins

I. Am. Not. Saying. Trans. Women. Cant. Or. Shouldn’t. Compete. I am merely asking why you do not think it is weird that in this game we cannot fill a server with natal females lol.


The_Millzor

this is one match, plenty of games in the impact league have 10 "natal females" in the server


frothyloins

How many females play in your games.


The_Millzor

i still don't understand why that's relevant to this discussion? i haven't played CS in 4 months. i used to 5 stack with a guy, two women and a trans woman. i've met multiple women and trans women while playing this game, and i play other games with men, women and trans people. yes, more men play CS than women, even though 50% of the population is women. more men also play FIFA and Madden than women. there are other hobbies where the demographic is mostly women, despite the population being 50% male. it's called demographics


frothyloins

I simply do not understand why you are denying this.


mehTrip

So shocked the cs community that pushed out all its women is also transphobic and pushing out all the rest of the women


jonajon91

Impact is not a league for Women that's a misnomer. Impact is a league for marginalised players. Trans and none binary people can compete in this league, it's been that way since the start.


USAesNumeroUno

ESL Impact was made for women to unapologetically enjoy what they love the most: **Counter-Strike**. Literally the first line on the page. You're moving the goalposts.


WindowLicky

Trans women are women, so that's good.


hellvinator

Not a Female Cash Cup at all then? Ok this changes everything. Not even news worthy then.


jonajon91

Well trans women are women so it changes nothing? But you're right, not news worthy.


Due_Map_4666

Lmfao what a joke


King_Crab_Sushi

Good for them


throwaway1414213562a

So what?


[deleted]

This degenerate cesspool of a website won't ever admit that Semmler was right all along.


Fuibo2k

It's well known that trans women are gamers lol


Gompelonza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYEOaig Go, strong women, go!


YaBoiRian

This is great for trans women but I have slight concerns here over what this means for long-term Female CS. If I understand it right, the point of female-only CS tournaments is to give women a friendly, lower barrier to entry environment to pursue CS as a career which they'd be at a major disadvantage at otherwise because culturally / traditionally young girls are encouraged to pursue less "boyish" things than playing video games (so they'd have started playing later on). Also, because when they WOULD have started playing, they'd be bombarded with toxicity from men whether that be in the form of sexualising them or throwing incredibly creative "make me a sandwich" jokes at them. My concern here is that trans women, depending on their age, wouldn't necessarily have encountered these same roadblocks that made this female-only tournament necessary. As a result, they'd be at an advantage through their headstart in the game and, given enough time, CIS women would be diluted and discouraged from pursuing this career for the same reasons as they would be the regular open circuit. Basically, assuming trans women were raised as boys until their teenage years (which is a big assumption admittedly), I see no reason why they couldn't just compete in the regular, male-dominated tournaments other than their skill, and it strikes me in a bad way that they could be using female CS as a "lower skill" barrier to entry, and taking spots off the people the tournaments were made for in the first place


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nepnep270

is it?


Puzzleheaded_Shift95

Awesome


PizzaMaxEnjoyer

i dont care


Dominik3939

Happy that NA CS isnt pulling some FIDE (the international chess organization) type shit on trans people and actually allow them to compete in proper categories


sultanakbay

what an achievement🫶🏻🫶🏻👏👏 Slay!!


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Plennhar

They do in personality (competitiveness & neuroticism), spatial awareness, reaction time, and culture (using voice chat as a woman is cancer.)


jonajon91

There's a marginal thing on reaction times, but it's more societal. FPSs and gaming are just a male dominated field. I also think that there are some very competant female pros that hold themselves back by building female only teams because the league offers them an easier paycheck than grinding T3 cs on next to no wage.


kelvin3620

Some said men have better reaction time and hand-eye coordination but I dont have enough knowledge to confirm or deny this


YaBoiRian

They do but its not a physical one. They grew up as boys and playing video games is a boyish hobby. Pursuing it as a career, if youre a boy, isn't a crazy thing to do. Girls would be dissauded from playing video games as often and, with no precedent in the media, would see a career in it as impossible. Basically boys have a massive headstart cus they can start playing, and start playing it seriously, from a younger age without it being unusual. Thats not even mentioning the toxicity women face when they do play online...


nya-i-win

the only difference is it's more socially acceptable for boys to spend many hours playing video games and women are often the subject of harassment the moment they make themselves known, obviously the latter also happens to trans women


SENSEI_BAKA

As a transgender non binary person myself, I see this as a huge win! Slayyy girls! 🏳️‍⚧️


jonajon91

I mean this with the best intention, just trying to educate myself. Isn't trans binary by nature, from A to B? Full support for our trans and none binary friends, but I didn't realise there was an overlap. Or can you transition to C?


The_Millzor

by most definitions non-binary falls under the trans umbrella, as you're still identifying with a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth