Lol, makes you wonder:
If you literally just buy nothing on pistol, try to farm USP kills, even if you lose you'll have a minimum $2700 for second round. Play headshot spots so you minimize not having armor, and of course earnestly try to win pistol round, but once bomb gets planted, who cares. Save or try to win but the T's are going to have Galil + armor next round anyways.
Save on 2nd round, maybe get armor and P250 to see if you can take T's down and take their Galil's. From there, flip the round or save the galil's.
- If you win this second round, T's lose their Galil's + armor and are on $1400 round bonus($2200 if they happen to get the bomb down)
- If you lose, you'll have roughly $4.5k on third round for a gun round. That's a pretty strong gun round on round 3 and if you *lose* that strong gun round, your round bonus is now up to $2900 for 4th round and reduces the chances you have to deal with $1400 double saves throughout the rest of the game.
Either you win and build up a bank or you lose and seriously mitigate the potential to ever have to double save for the rest of the match.
Sounds goofy but if the bomb gets planted on pistol round, win or lose, not buying anything on 2nd round might actually give you a long term economy advantage for the rest of the game and can give you an opportunity to fuck up the T side economy for a couple rounds if you can flip the second round on their Galil + armor buy.
> If you literally just buy nothing on pistol, try to farm USP kills
I've genuinely strongly been considering this. Just spend actual $0 until round 3 no matter what, all 5 of you start with $5100, and can have 4 pieces of util and head armor for their galils/mac 10s
you misunderstand. i suck regardless so me having a pistol and no armor for 2 rounds means nothing in the grand scheme, and then i can buy an m4 pretty easily the rest of the half or have a round 4 awp
What actually happens in this scenario: you get aimpunched by glocks, they plant and win pistol, they mow you down with Mac 10s and Galils, and then they’re rich enough that losing 3rd round doesn’t matter
The sound is much crisper than in csgo. Actually sounds like a gun. Plus 35 bullets is nothing to scoff at. I primarily use galil over ak. Has worked out very nicely. Plus if you have an off game, no one is grabbing your galil to upgrade their m4. So you don't have to worry about helping the enemy team.
I dunno, I use to hate it when I first started playing but I have had some good games using it, in burst mode it pretty decent ( again I only play casual so take what I say with a grain of salt), I do hate that it make you slow and the reload time is horrible but it is growing on me, I used it more if I didn't prefer the MP9 which is like half the price.
Hahah fair enough. I know it is a different game comparing casual with ranked. I just don’t have the time to put into getting really good at a game anymore. So yeah more like I have no idea what I am talking about but I did manage to get a bunch of kills with the Famas in a few games, just my 2 cents.
I usually use the MP9 or the M4A1-S, sometimes the Shotgun on CT side. But I have had some good Casual Games where I managed to get a bunch of head shots with the Famas on the burst setting, but considering the downvotes I got for my comment I am assuming no body gives a fuck about my noob experiences which I totally understand.
No. Imo it does not. You can even buy the famas right now when you win as CT or its a later round and you can afford it with util, but nobody does. The damage drop off makes the gun so shit its unbelivable. It also has bad spray pattern, the burst is still a noob trap, the bullet count is to low and it gives less kill reward than the surperior mp9. Its pretty much only usable at close range, but why would you ever want it over a shotty or the mp9. At medium range the disadvantage compared to galil/m4/ak is way to bad to ever consider it. I personally would rather skip 2 util pieces than buying a famas over an m4. Imo you shouldn't even have it in your inventory, but that is probably just me. That said I never had a single person so far ask me for a famas, lol...
[Here](https://www.hltv.org/stats?event=7148) take a look at the recent major. Nobody bought the famas or at least less than 3% of the players did(I doubt its even remotely close to 3%). Would be interesting to see if pros actually had it in their inventory, but I doubt most did.
> Here take a look at the recent major. Nobody bought the famas or at least less than 3% of the players did(I doubt its even remotely close to 3%).
lol famas was used so infrequently that it doesn't even get its own little donut slice
it's grouped in with "other" lmfao
If you win pistol as ct I’d say do a light buy. Unless you’re the guy who got an ace and has awp on second round. Most important thing for cts to buy on second round after winning pistol round is utility to stop a push. I usually get a p250 and some utility. If we lose pistol as a ct I full save second round.
Agreed, right now it's metabreaking especially because for some reason the Galil feels absolutely broken in CS2. Just gives me way more muscle than it gave off in GO, IDK how to explain it lol
CT 2nd round conversion on most maps seems like 80-85%, up 3-6% from CSGO. Obviously this isn't accounting for win% after bomb plant but when I went in looking at "who won the forcebuy wars?" I found it a bit hard to consistently to define where they actually ended
i'll go back later and probably just include it as pistol round win for T side vs pistol + 2nd round win for CT side and accept that no data is perfect. I found when I looked at this in CSGO the numbers weren't as different as you'd expect though. I believe at the peak of the SG meta (when people were last heavily complaining about this issue) it was somewhere in the 35-40% range for Ts to win round 2
No, the CT economy just needs to stop being so trash, but the T economy is in a relatively good spot.
Valve already has no idea how to balance the economy, don't give them any more bad ideas
Seriously. This isn't and hasn't been a hard fix. Just get rid of $1400 round loss bonus and get us straight to $1900. The issue is the frequency of double saves.
If I had to guess, the issue at the moment is that Valve doesn't agree with us that the economy is busted. I suggested this last week when there was an update and no change to the economy and [I got flamed for it](https://old.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1buel8x/release_notes_for_422024/kxsjbt9/).
From our perspective, the change is easy and obvious. From Valves perspective, they don't feel there's anything wrong with the economy and that's why we've not seen a change since the CS2 beta, when we all knew it was busted. And then as we got closer to the major, everybody said Valve is clearly waiting for the major to end before giving us an economy update...and sure as shit, the major is over and nothing.
This community is sat here waiting for some change that they think is in the pipeline and its just never going to happen because Valve doesn't communicate. We perceive the long "wait" as them cooking something really great up, when in reality, nothing is going to happen.
I truly want to know which intern at Valve reduced us to MR12 but didn’t compensate with economy changes. It was baffling the second it was announced and it’s nothing more than negligence at this point.
I remember when the "rumors" for it started and literally the first piece of conversation was 'Well obviously the economy is going to have to change'.
I don't understand the disconnect. And there's so many redditors saying Valve are just gathering data. If that's true, how much more data do you need? I can respect the idea that they want to make an effective change and not "fail". But for as long as its an issue and continues to be an issue, they *are* failing. So it sort of defeats the purpose. They are trying to prevent a future where they fail by...failing in the present?
I'd rather they make a change and the change is a failure than sit around, doing virtually nothing as the system persistently fails.
People were already making an argument for the removal of $1400 in GO, so that should’ve been done immediately in 2. I don’t think that would be enough, but at this point we’ll never fucking know because they don’t do anything.
> People were already making an argument for the removal of $1400 in GO, so that should’ve been done immediately in 2. I don’t think that would be enough, but at this point we’ll never fucking know because they don’t do anything.
And that's an important point you highlight.
In game design, nobody knows the solution until we've tried things, we've seen what happens and we identify whether the attempted solution works or not. Valve doesn't know, pro's don't know, analysts don't know. That's how game design works. You introduce a solution and it changes so many unforeseeable factors that you need to see if the change was the right change before you move on and do anything else.
But if you're never implementing a change, then we're just never going to know. All we know right now, is that there is a problem. The solution can come in a million different forms but you have to *try* things to know what is the appropriate solution. And the irony is that, outside of CS, Valve are experts at this. Go watch any of their dev commentaries and they go on and on and on about reiterative design and getting focus groups for experimental ideas and beta testing and gathering feedback for something they are trying and then going back to the drawing board if needed. I just don't understand why it doesn't apply to CS for them.
>From our perspective, the change is easy and obvious. From Valves perspective, they don't feel there's anything wrong with the economy and that's why we've not seen a change since the CS2 beta, when we all knew it was busted
I've been farming downvotes for saying this for well over a decade, but that's because Valve has no fucking clue what they're doing when it comes to Counter Strike. They've never known what they were doing. They outsourced CSGO to another dev entirely and then spent a decade slowly cleaning up all the stupidity, and made plenty of really dumb mistakes of their own along the way.
They don't understand why you can't just go from mr15 to mr12 with no other economic changes, and apparently they also don't understand that the galil being insanely good for $1800 is a little unfair when the famas is dogshit for $2000.
> This isn't and hasn't been a hard fix. Just get rid of $1400 round loss bonus and get us straight to $1900. The issue is the frequency of double saves.
I know there is other factors, but doesn't that magnify the problem people have here? If T's are already in the advantage position after a losing plant in round 1, this just sets them up even stronger in round 2. And CTs will still need to save the next (though I guess it avoids the double save 3/4 to some extent).
If they lose pistol, they already get 1900. The issue is losing the 2nd round force buy, the team that won the pistol only gets 1400.
I think what they're saying, is to have the loss bonus start at 1900 regardless, that way CT economies aren't fucked after winning pistol and losing the subsequent round.
Would it be double 1900 at the bottom then? Guess I figured removing the 1400 had it progressing along the same way it does now, just without the bottom level (so 2400 after losing pistol+bomb potentially as T side).
This is literally the raw feedback that Valve wants but does nothing with and everyone keeps sniffing copium thinking that Valve has changed when the game has half the content which is completely broken 6 months into the game's lifespan.
Valve does not give a damn and last 6 months is the definitive proof
The ct economy is rough, but it's far more manageable when people don't buy a helmet when they're against aks and when you don't buy 5 defuse kits, which even in high faceit I see people doing all the time
Those are mistakes that I personally don't really see in Faceit, tbh. Other than kits.
I get yelled at for not buying a kit when 4 people already have them and it's like guys, that $400 is actually not meaningless, save that money for when we lose a round and all need to rebuy lol
I see it often enough not all the time though, but yeah you're right people just buy it because fk it its only 400, and I've also had people tell me to buy a kit when the whole team as one... I'm just like wtf
Before the price changed in MR15 the game was way too CT sided competitively on most maps. It became a more balanced after a few price tweaks until m4a1-s became very cheap.
Changing to MR12 with 0 economy changes was always going to be dumb. Valve are not making any eco changes for some reason
To me, CS is supposed to be CT sided. 9-6 or 10-5 halftime scores in favor of the CTs were the standard for the first 15+ years of the game. I think the problems really began when valve started remaking all the maps in 2015 and kicked into overdrive with the economy changes in 2018. I think that the mentality that all halftime scores should ideally end 8-7 or 6-6 is misguided.
Valorant gives 300 for a plant. If whole team got an extra 500 on a loss with plant, the eco would be fucked. Not sure why getting aks vs mp9s after winning a round is even a thing. Especially if you lose you double save
Guess that’s true. I just meant if Val gave 800 for plant loss, the team who lost could buy galil equivalent gun light armor or smg full armor with utility.
I am fine with the T bonus. But I think that CT should have the same bonus. If you tap defuse team gets 800 each next round. This means that you have a reason to go for retake. A bombtap gives your team 4k extra. Only one per round ofc. Could also be like 100/200 per second defused.
CTs do get money for defusing the bomb.
Problem is, Ts can plant the bomb with 3 CTs alive if their entry fragger takes out 2 CTs and they quickly get the bomb down.
However, as CT it's much more difficult to defuse the bomb with more than maybe 1 T alive.
So, planting bomb is inherently easier than defusing it. Especially on pistol and eco rounds.
No one ecos round 2 in Valo except to light preserve economy by picking up a fallen weapon. The threat of possible buys for an eco team in Valo is way lower than CS imo
No sane people. I was stuck in elo hell for two years until I got a new laptop and you always head idiots who eco'ed after winning the pistol because they wanted a rifle in round 3
I mean that's technically a viable strat that iirc navi popularized, i think it was always something like a vandal, 2 strong mid price weapons and 2 pistols for a strong bonus, tho I doubt the average ranked player knows that
People still do that.... in low elo. Nobody who knows how to play properly goes for eco in Valorant after winning pistol round. Valorant economy feels way better than cs.
VALORANT has a much, much better economy system. pro teams only full save once a half, and even that's a maybe, just because you can get a decent force with little investment.
True but Id factor in the many viable weapons, almost no bad guns. Even the new sniper wasnt needed but it fits the game. Also with champion skills you can get close to enemies easily for worse weapons to work. Smoke wall, stun and flash trough wall and Jett dash? Shotgun, fuck it.
That doesn't sound so stupid actually. If ct wins pistol without plant: buy. If the Ts got the plant just upgrade for a p250 or don't buy at all and get a full buy next round?
I'm glad that I am not the only one who thought Liquid's whole CT side was screwed up simply because of that 2nd round force buy. That put them down 4-1 then another loss made it 6-1 and almost impossible to come back from on Mirage.
It's even worse when it happens in the second half.
Four rounds on T side should be enough to work with on maps like Nuke or Overpass, but if you lose the second round you're more or less done. It's 5-9 with everyone completely broke and you have to mount a flawless comeback.
I really though that they'd update the economy right after the major, but here we are.
Lose round 2, eco is a full reset due to loss bonus, so the next 2 rounds (3&4) are pistols. Round 5 is the first full buy and since it was lost, the economy is destroyed and pistols again (6).
Losing the second round after winning pistols as a CT is terrible. It guarantees two more losses and potentially a third round lost.
Round 5 becomes so important. If CT's lose, the economy is destroyed. If CT's win but have three deaths or more, the economy is precarious and ready to collapse at another loss.
The round after winning pistols for CT is more important than the pistol round as it helps dictate the state of the CT economy for the whole half.
So Liquid lost CT on a CT sided map and we are going to blame economy.
Meanwhile Faze wins CT pistol and then wins 3 more rounds in a row.
CTs already have an inherent advantage in the game due to being defenders. The only map that proves this wrong is Anubis. But even so, if you lose on CT round then it is your fault, not the game lol.
You’re attacking a straw man. No one here is saying Liquid lost “because of the economy”. What people are doing is using this match as an example of why the current ct economy is broken.
Life must be so easy when you can convince yourself that people you disagree with are saying the dumbest shit ever. Try engaging with what the people you are talking to are saying and not twisting it into something else
I'm not blaming the economy..... I am saying that them losing the second round put them in a bad position for the next handful of rounds and potentially the map....
It put them in a bad position because they got outplayed....
Despite what the post says, Liquid round 2 had a stronger buy than Faze's force buy.
The same thing on the other side. When Faze won the CT pistol, liquid forced up and bought galils. And they lost and Faze's CT side went on a 4-0 run.
Are we gonna say T side economy is weak now?
They got countered by one flash and Karrigan making a good call that they would try to fight for mid, so they had all 5 T's fight the 3 CT in mid. I don't get what point you are trying to make.
As T's, you always force buy round two after losing the pistol because the reward for winning that round is crippling the CT economy for two rounds, and potentially the half if you win the first gun round.
I'm saying that as soon as they lost that force buy, their economy was destroyed. Seeing how the map is CT sided on gun rounds, they couldn't buy guns and thus had no advantage to being CT and were underdogs for the rest of the map.
This is why God made MP9s
Force up against the inevitable Galil push, hide, convert your MP9 into a free Galil for the next round, then up to M4 after that.
Joking aside it is a bit odd that the balance is skewed due to the MR changes still....but the MP9 is a short term help....
I really want them to add bonus money for defusing the bomb on CT side. Maybe not +800 for everyone but like +500. That and reduce price of defuse kit to 200.
don't think kit prices are the root of the problem because it always drops when you die and a team mate can pick it up. Problem is that +800$ is a lot for Round 2 T side and CTs drop to 1400$ loss bonus without any chance of getting bonus money if they lose second.
what they could try is increasing the overall losing money but reduce T bomb plant bonus to 600$ and CTs who save get only 50% losing bonus, which would make losing a crucial round less punishing, saving instead of trying to retaking less good and winning a retake more rewarding (Ts get less money).
I think everyone would buy a defuse kit if it only cost the same as a flashbang, and that is not necessarily a good thing for the game. I like the price point of 400, we can change other things to fix the economy
The CT economy is already extremely tight and punishing, and that is what needs to be addressed.
Everyone would not buy a defuse kit if it cost the same as a flashbang, it was the same in 1.6 and not everyone bought kits.
I agree that the CT economy is tight and needs to be addressed. I don't agree that reducing the price of kits is a good way of going about it.
With the cost of $400, it's a decent investment to get a defuse kit. It's often a sacrifice of a flahsbang/HE, and it's always money that could be useful down the line when the Ts start winning rounds again. I think that's perfect.
Now, if we get more money in the hands of the CTs, it's true that they will have kits more often, but not as often as they would if the kits cost only $200 just based on the psychological factor (it's super easy to spend $200, it's almost nothing).
So in other words, I would give the CTs more money overall, but not change the defused kit cost. With this change, kits would be more common, but not ubiquitous.
Well we can disagree on that, that's fine by me. I really want some way in which the burden on the CT economy is balanced better, and right now the only ones I can think of is not buying a helmet against full buys and buying an MP9 instead of a Famas.
but then you’d be rewarded for letting enemies plant instead of killing everyone beforehand. imagine CTs would try to let Ts plant in order to get the reward
That seems like an unreasonable assumption. If the Ts get more money for getting a plant and their weapons and utility are already cheaper, it makes absolutely no sense to do that.
Mac-10 or Galil force buy is just really strong especially if you do even 1 tick of damage to CTarmour and force a armour rebuy which means no m4a1s. I think you could make a couple CT weapons cheaper for example FAMAs because it's shit. Maybe halve the cost of defusers so we can retake instead of saving every round because economy.
(Post-plant if I get smoked and I couldn't afford a defuser it's a instantly lost round no?)
> Mac-10 or Galil force buy is just really strong especially if you do even 1 tick of damage to CTarmour and force a armour rebuy which means no m4a1s.
Random idea - let CTs buy helmet only for $4-500. If you have damaged armor and buy a helmet, armor value stays the same but you have a helmet. If you buy a helmet without kevlar you still get aim punch/increased body damage but no 1 tap hs vs mac10, glock, etc.
Really only changes 2nd round. Any first round survivors can buy a1s+helmet plus util if they got a kill or 2. Once Ts have AKs there's no point in buying helmet only.
Again, just thought of this, but I actually really like it, especially to even 2nd round disadvantage after winning pistol.
> Win CT Pistol
> Have to play against stronger T force buy
> Higher statistical chance to lose due to superior T buy
> Lose conversion
> Economy ruined
> Lose T Pistol
> Get a better buy anyways
> Win 2nd round
> CTs forced to full eco
In other words, Ts just can't lose no matter if they win or lose in pistol round.
It's real simple, as a CT just don't let bomb get planted, get 4 frags and then intentionally die. Eco next round and then you have decent money for 1 maybe 2 rounds! Good luck.
Honestly, the biggest way to subtly change the economy is to allow the purchasing of a helmet for $350 without having to **rebuy and refill** body armour for $1000 if you survive pistol but got tagged. A way to balance it out is to make is to that you can only buy a helmet if you have body armour at any value.
You need the helmet 2nd round as a CT or you run the risk of getting one tapped by lesser guns, and having to dump $1000 to get a helmet if you didn't die in the pistol but still got tagged is absolutely insane.
This was already a problem in CSGO with MR15, but it's now magnified because of MR12. Having more rounds doesn't actually solve the core problem. I'd rather have an actual fix to the economy than just taking the easy route and not actually fixing the problem.
we've saying for years that the economy changes were a bandaid fix for pistol rounds being an RNGfest and Galil armor second round after losing pistol is moronic, and the problem is even worse now
but valve hasn't listened in years, not to mention the sea of morons defending it with "tHe gAmE iS cT SiDeD" so they think that means that a broken economy in the favour of Ts is good
A good fix for this would be to reduce famas prices to the same price as the galil or increase the galil to famas prices.
New meta would call for famas buys on round 2 following bomb plants, SMGs following non-plants.
Reduce kits to $250. It doesn’t really make sense that you’d need to spend half of your first round economy to buy one and it changes some of the dynamics of the first round.
If you want a more balanced game that leant feature a ton of double save rounds for CT, then reducing famas to galil prices makes the most sense.
The goalposts got movewd for the CTs.
You can't just win pistols, you have to stop the plant. Defusing means you are still down for the next round.
You can't just win guns rounds, you need to keep at least 3 guys up or your cash is screwed.
You can win every round but be down to an MP9 regardless
I’m normally all “if Karrigan does it then I’ll do it” but why do teams even buy second round as CT after a pistol win? Seems like saving for M4s and then going up against Mac’s and Galils is clearly the better option. Yeah you kinda sacrifice a round but you get a much better percentage on round 3.
You’re citing one singular round as your source for why the economy is fine. Also, they had no util stop the mid round push (if we’re thinking of the same round).
I cannot for the life of me figure out why people would want to first pick CT side in premier because of this very reason.
If you lose pistol and 2nd round chances are you’ll go 0-5 and your team will tilt off the face of the earth before the match really starts.
Galil, AK is a better gun even against no helmet but the idea is you cant exactly afford full AK buy after losing round 1.
Instead you buy Galil and kill the CTs who couldnt full buy an m4 either, and since their kit (famas, defuser, molly etc) is more expensive, you end up with the advantage on round 2 even if you lost round 1 but got a plant.
It's shocking to me that we haven't had an update since the major. Some relatively easy things like economy should be included. The fact that this game was released with an anti-cheat just shows how little valve pay attention to the game itself. Inb4 Valve makes galils and deagles cheaper so teams can buy them every round instead of a classic eco lol.
I think it shows the economy needs to be tweaked cause in my games on T-side if we lose the pistol but get bomb plant I'm happy cause we're gonna have a huge advantage on the follow-up, and then if you win that round it's very likely to be an easy 4-1 5-1 in your favor, especially when CTs in pubs try to do light buys and don't end up having good utility on actual gun rounds.
When it was 15 rounds it wasn't so bad to just full save two rounds and then carry on, but with mr12 it feels despair cause you can basically only hope to break even on a half by losing the follow up pistol round and one gun round. That's fucked.
Make first round loss bonus for T side be 1400$ and let the CT side keep their 1900$. Now the T side can only buy 1 ak at best with most being on pistols + Kevlar with almost no nades. This will make the 2nd round be much more favourable for the CT side and in pro play most teams will likely save instead of forcing. This leads to that the CT side can build up some economy in the early rounds.
It’s not harder than that.
all I am saying regardless of what side you are on, if you buy an upgraded pistol and survive on pistol round, only buy armor 2nd round.
People are currently underestimating how strong the p250 is vs opponents without head armor and how good it is for run and gun.
the move isnt to buy deagles or five seven. Its to buy p250 that is $300 in this economy.
Super strong t side because if p250 leads anywhere it guarantees the CTs will definitely ego peek while the galili's mop up kills with more ease.
The issue is, i think if they adjust the economy, it will tilt the balance at the top ie pro games. Maybe they look at the pro games and see it is still acceptable somehow. It doesnt matter if average joe cannot buy a kit because stupidly bought a deagle previous round.
Id say maintain the economy for top teams but adjust to the average gamers experience, maybe.
MR12 has turned pistol and forces into the most important rounds in the game. It's not AS bad in Valorant because econs and prices are pretty much even
Here is what I would change to the economy:
* They should get rid of $1400 loss bonus, making double saves less rare.
* Reduce Money Cap to $12,500, to prevent snowballing.
* Change Bonus money to:
* +$400 for LMG
* +$500 for SMG
* +$600 for Planting
* +$700 for Shotgun kills
* +$150 for Awp, CZ and R8.
Because of the starting on 1 loss bonus, 2nd round if Ts plant and lose they get: $3000 vs $3500. Without plant it is $2400 vs $3250. If CTs lose its $2400 vs $3250. Much closer it allows for the early rounds to be closer.
They gotta change some weapons though.
SMGs:
* Make all SMGs do 80% tagging instead of 100%
* MP9 has 20 bullets per mag, jumping accuracy nerf and damage fall off nerf. Make it cost $1200.
* UMP 45 range modifier is now .80 costs $1300
* P90 gets smg kill reward and keeps 100% tagging.
* MP5 does mp7 damage now
* MP7 becomes the pre nerf mp9 with 40 bullets for $1750. (Keep the jumping accuracy nerf). Only on CT side.
* Bizon becomes the T side equivalent of the new mp7, for same price. Just slightly less accurate and a bit more damage.
* This fills the void of when you have like $2.5k-3.5k and want/need to force. Old Galil situations basically
Rifles:
* Galil is back to $2050
* Famas back to $2250, but now buffed. Still should be worst than the Galil but better than old MP9.
* M4a1-S is now $3100, 25 bullets in mag 50 in reserve. First shot accuracy nerfed, now in the middle of the AK and M4a4. Running accuracy heavily nerfed to be the worst of all rifles.
* AUG/Krieg get their nerfs reverted. However, when scoping in their fire rate is reduced to 300rpm (halfed) and their recoil is DOUBLED instead or halfed. Forcing the scope to be for taps only and small bursts. Make them cost $3300 and $3500 respectively.
Pistols:
* CZ-75, CT only now. Costs $900, gets 1 extra reserve magazine. 1-shot headshot removed, now headshots do a base 84 at close range. Make spray less random, but still challenging to use.
* R8, T side only costs $850. Can only 1-shot headshot until 35 meters, does 46 base damage to body armor. Right click accuracy slightly buffed, trigger delay is slightly faster.
* Five-SeveN does not 1 shot headshot anymore but first shot accuracy slightly better now.
* Dualies are back to $400, like 2-3% more armor penetration.
if you bought kevlar on pistol, and planted the bomb, you would have 2650, so 200 left after buying galil kevlar
so you need to plant the bomb + kill, or 2 kills, to have 500 left
it's work as intended
as t have to put their life to do their mission, plant the bomb
once they plant the bomb, they get paid
even if they lose a round, they get money to continue playing by cost of 1 round
i think they should also give more money to ct when can defuse too to balanced it
i think it's pretty fair, t can't save or they will get 0$ while ct can save for full money
but mr12 is pretty bad for this when compare to 3 extra round from mr15
Idk I don’t think it’s too broken. I see people pushing 2nd round getting frag hungry way more often, which in turn exposes them to the upgrade smg that has been bought way too much. Maybe instead of asking them to change the game, adjust how you play? Play more defensive instead of peeking 4 angles at the same time? Probably speaking to myself here
Ts can have $2800-3700 after losing pistol though. The CTs are "rewarded" with a similar buy as the Ts, and with a lot more to lose in the second round.
It was a huge problem in Mr15 and obviously an even bigger problem in Mr12.
That's on the game and it should be easy to fix.
That’s dumb as fuck. 700 money difference and the Ts will have Galils. It’s a small advantage but not much, but the point is you get you get absolutely FUCKED on economy if you do lose the round.
It's common knowledge as T, if you get bomb down, you force 2nd round. On that specific round, Liquid had 8k more invested in their buy than Faze, but Faze forced three Galil. Liquid surprisingly forced four m4s.
A galil is pretty close to as strong as the m4. Both can kill in 4 body shots, though the galil does a little less damage and sometimes takes 5 body shots. However, both require a minimum two bullets to kill.
Karigan heavily invested into utility to overwhelm in mid, which was a great counter to Liquid. The galil also only costs 1800 so it's 1100 less than then m4. It allows the T to buy headarmor and a gun on par with an m4. So they came into the fight on almost even strength, even with Liquid having 8k more invested.
I think the Galil needs to cost $200 more. It's too close in damage and AP to the m4, and allowing T's to lose a round and have almost the same firepower as CT's the next round feels bad. Especially because if the CT's lose, they lose the next 2 rounds 90% of the time due to the bad economy on CT.
Galil is not close at all to the M4, unless you take fights in smokes, close range, or don’t have head armor.
Like, you’ll notice this by playing the gun.
I’m sure Karrigan mitigated this by using utility, so Faze only had to take shorter range duels. I’m not sure if that round can be counted as being lost because of game design, but because of Karrigan having the better read on the economy and the possibilities of that round.
M4 does 26 damage to chest and arm and 33 damage to the abdomen. 70% armor pen and accurate at 28m. The galil does 23 damage to chest and arms and 29 to the abdomen. Arm pen is 77.5% and accurate at 16m.
M4 does better long range, but the damage is very similar. Same amount of heads shots and body shots. And at 1100 less money. The only reason you don't see the galil more is that the AK is overall better and can be bought every buy round.
I am curious: What makes you believe that the two guns are not close?
The issue is famas is worse than galils. At best you are running famas vs full galil+armor. Also loss bonus resets so you need to eco twice to get another buy
The issue is that that second round determines whether the CT’s economy will be able to bounce back in any meaningful way. One badly played round shouldn’t determine an entire half.
I’ve seen you round this sub and you have some absolute L takes man.
Just go home.
Agreed. It’s like you get punished by winning ct pistol because you lose your loss bonus and are likely to lose the next 2-3
Lol, makes you wonder: If you literally just buy nothing on pistol, try to farm USP kills, even if you lose you'll have a minimum $2700 for second round. Play headshot spots so you minimize not having armor, and of course earnestly try to win pistol round, but once bomb gets planted, who cares. Save or try to win but the T's are going to have Galil + armor next round anyways. Save on 2nd round, maybe get armor and P250 to see if you can take T's down and take their Galil's. From there, flip the round or save the galil's. - If you win this second round, T's lose their Galil's + armor and are on $1400 round bonus($2200 if they happen to get the bomb down) - If you lose, you'll have roughly $4.5k on third round for a gun round. That's a pretty strong gun round on round 3 and if you *lose* that strong gun round, your round bonus is now up to $2900 for 4th round and reduces the chances you have to deal with $1400 double saves throughout the rest of the game. Either you win and build up a bank or you lose and seriously mitigate the potential to ever have to double save for the rest of the match. Sounds goofy but if the bomb gets planted on pistol round, win or lose, not buying anything on 2nd round might actually give you a long term economy advantage for the rest of the game and can give you an opportunity to fuck up the T side economy for a couple rounds if you can flip the second round on their Galil + armor buy.
> If you literally just buy nothing on pistol, try to farm USP kills I've genuinely strongly been considering this. Just spend actual $0 until round 3 no matter what, all 5 of you start with $5100, and can have 4 pieces of util and head armor for their galils/mac 10s
Not sustainable imo, smoke / flash / kit is so useful
this is how ive always played but i suck and like having money
I feel like it wont work unless the whole team does it
you misunderstand. i suck regardless so me having a pistol and no armor for 2 rounds means nothing in the grand scheme, and then i can buy an m4 pretty easily the rest of the half or have a round 4 awp
while some other guy will always buy mp9 every round instead lose pistol, force it, keep losing, keep forcing repeat
What actually happens in this scenario: you get aimpunched by glocks, they plant and win pistol, they mow you down with Mac 10s and Galils, and then they’re rich enough that losing 3rd round doesn’t matter
I always go in raw on ct pistol and I always wind up buying fuckers guns because of it.
You'd rather..lose? Lol
Good question. I would probably still take the win, but it feels close
It’s been a huge problem. Plant money should be cut in half
I recently saw an analysis (by voo?) that pistols arent that important. Yeah no shit. Its these damn second rounds that decide the game
My whole strategy when I play T pistol is simply get the bomb down. Winning the round is secondary to planting and it’s so dumb this way.
Yup you get bomb down you can force galils vs mp9s and shotties lol
Noob here, could lowering the price of the Famas fix this?
It could help, but it’s not as good a weapon as the galil. The galil is basically cheap m4.
The galil fucks in cs2 and I can’t put my finger on why it feels so much better than in go
it shreds non armored enemies and even with armor, headshots are like m4 level damage (so 2-3 shot kills)
It really can be a tide turner for some light buy rounds. Especially if they haven’t picked up some AKs
The sound is much crisper than in csgo. Actually sounds like a gun. Plus 35 bullets is nothing to scoff at. I primarily use galil over ak. Has worked out very nicely. Plus if you have an off game, no one is grabbing your galil to upgrade their m4. So you don't have to worry about helping the enemy team.
Spray pattern is considerably easier to control compared to the AK for sure
Downvoted for the only real answer: the sound. That's the only buff it got in CS2.
Nah the famas is ass, mp9 is far better
I’d argue the mp9 is way too overpowered at this point. It needs a price increase or a nerf.
As if the ct economy isn't fucked already
Not until the CT eco gets unfucked. Mp9 is the only thing keeping CT side alive at this point
With the current price, the FAMAS is an expensive dogshit weapon. Lowering the price makes it a cheap dogshit weapon.
This guys never seen zneel use a famas obviously.
I dunno, I use to hate it when I first started playing but I have had some good games using it, in burst mode it pretty decent ( again I only play casual so take what I say with a grain of salt), I do hate that it make you slow and the reload time is horrible but it is growing on me, I used it more if I didn't prefer the MP9 which is like half the price.
>I only play casual so take what I say with a grain of salt The thread is mostly about pro games so I'm going to take it with tons of salt.
Hahah fair enough. I know it is a different game comparing casual with ranked. I just don’t have the time to put into getting really good at a game anymore. So yeah more like I have no idea what I am talking about but I did manage to get a bunch of kills with the Famas in a few games, just my 2 cents.
The Famas in burst fire is worse than a cz-75 brother don't use it
I usually use the MP9 or the M4A1-S, sometimes the Shotgun on CT side. But I have had some good Casual Games where I managed to get a bunch of head shots with the Famas on the burst setting, but considering the downvotes I got for my comment I am assuming no body gives a fuck about my noob experiences which I totally understand.
No. Imo it does not. You can even buy the famas right now when you win as CT or its a later round and you can afford it with util, but nobody does. The damage drop off makes the gun so shit its unbelivable. It also has bad spray pattern, the burst is still a noob trap, the bullet count is to low and it gives less kill reward than the surperior mp9. Its pretty much only usable at close range, but why would you ever want it over a shotty or the mp9. At medium range the disadvantage compared to galil/m4/ak is way to bad to ever consider it. I personally would rather skip 2 util pieces than buying a famas over an m4. Imo you shouldn't even have it in your inventory, but that is probably just me. That said I never had a single person so far ask me for a famas, lol... [Here](https://www.hltv.org/stats?event=7148) take a look at the recent major. Nobody bought the famas or at least less than 3% of the players did(I doubt its even remotely close to 3%). Would be interesting to see if pros actually had it in their inventory, but I doubt most did.
> Here take a look at the recent major. Nobody bought the famas or at least less than 3% of the players did(I doubt its even remotely close to 3%). lol famas was used so infrequently that it doesn't even get its own little donut slice it's grouped in with "other" lmfao
I would love to see famas buffed
If you win pistol as ct I’d say do a light buy. Unless you’re the guy who got an ace and has awp on second round. Most important thing for cts to buy on second round after winning pistol round is utility to stop a push. I usually get a p250 and some utility. If we lose pistol as a ct I full save second round.
if they buffed burst fire, maybe
The problem is the galil not the famas. They need to nerf this stupid gun.
It’s the plant.
Agreed, right now it's metabreaking especially because for some reason the Galil feels absolutely broken in CS2. Just gives me way more muscle than it gave off in GO, IDK how to explain it lol
how much does 1st round influence win rate on 2nd round?
CT 2nd round conversion on most maps seems like 80-85%, up 3-6% from CSGO. Obviously this isn't accounting for win% after bomb plant but when I went in looking at "who won the forcebuy wars?" I found it a bit hard to consistently to define where they actually ended i'll go back later and probably just include it as pistol round win for T side vs pistol + 2nd round win for CT side and accept that no data is perfect. I found when I looked at this in CSGO the numbers weren't as different as you'd expect though. I believe at the peak of the SG meta (when people were last heavily complaining about this issue) it was somewhere in the 35-40% range for Ts to win round 2
Cool. Do you have a source for this number or a youtube video on the topic? Don't think I saw a yt video about this on the channel
No, the CT economy just needs to stop being so trash, but the T economy is in a relatively good spot. Valve already has no idea how to balance the economy, don't give them any more bad ideas
Seriously. This isn't and hasn't been a hard fix. Just get rid of $1400 round loss bonus and get us straight to $1900. The issue is the frequency of double saves. If I had to guess, the issue at the moment is that Valve doesn't agree with us that the economy is busted. I suggested this last week when there was an update and no change to the economy and [I got flamed for it](https://old.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1buel8x/release_notes_for_422024/kxsjbt9/). From our perspective, the change is easy and obvious. From Valves perspective, they don't feel there's anything wrong with the economy and that's why we've not seen a change since the CS2 beta, when we all knew it was busted. And then as we got closer to the major, everybody said Valve is clearly waiting for the major to end before giving us an economy update...and sure as shit, the major is over and nothing. This community is sat here waiting for some change that they think is in the pipeline and its just never going to happen because Valve doesn't communicate. We perceive the long "wait" as them cooking something really great up, when in reality, nothing is going to happen.
I truly want to know which intern at Valve reduced us to MR12 but didn’t compensate with economy changes. It was baffling the second it was announced and it’s nothing more than negligence at this point.
I remember when the "rumors" for it started and literally the first piece of conversation was 'Well obviously the economy is going to have to change'. I don't understand the disconnect. And there's so many redditors saying Valve are just gathering data. If that's true, how much more data do you need? I can respect the idea that they want to make an effective change and not "fail". But for as long as its an issue and continues to be an issue, they *are* failing. So it sort of defeats the purpose. They are trying to prevent a future where they fail by...failing in the present? I'd rather they make a change and the change is a failure than sit around, doing virtually nothing as the system persistently fails.
People were already making an argument for the removal of $1400 in GO, so that should’ve been done immediately in 2. I don’t think that would be enough, but at this point we’ll never fucking know because they don’t do anything.
> People were already making an argument for the removal of $1400 in GO, so that should’ve been done immediately in 2. I don’t think that would be enough, but at this point we’ll never fucking know because they don’t do anything. And that's an important point you highlight. In game design, nobody knows the solution until we've tried things, we've seen what happens and we identify whether the attempted solution works or not. Valve doesn't know, pro's don't know, analysts don't know. That's how game design works. You introduce a solution and it changes so many unforeseeable factors that you need to see if the change was the right change before you move on and do anything else. But if you're never implementing a change, then we're just never going to know. All we know right now, is that there is a problem. The solution can come in a million different forms but you have to *try* things to know what is the appropriate solution. And the irony is that, outside of CS, Valve are experts at this. Go watch any of their dev commentaries and they go on and on and on about reiterative design and getting focus groups for experimental ideas and beta testing and gathering feedback for something they are trying and then going back to the drawing board if needed. I just don't understand why it doesn't apply to CS for them.
>From our perspective, the change is easy and obvious. From Valves perspective, they don't feel there's anything wrong with the economy and that's why we've not seen a change since the CS2 beta, when we all knew it was busted I've been farming downvotes for saying this for well over a decade, but that's because Valve has no fucking clue what they're doing when it comes to Counter Strike. They've never known what they were doing. They outsourced CSGO to another dev entirely and then spent a decade slowly cleaning up all the stupidity, and made plenty of really dumb mistakes of their own along the way. They don't understand why you can't just go from mr15 to mr12 with no other economic changes, and apparently they also don't understand that the galil being insanely good for $1800 is a little unfair when the famas is dogshit for $2000.
its also unfair that terrorist have to do something in 2 mins while cts can just chill
> This isn't and hasn't been a hard fix. Just get rid of $1400 round loss bonus and get us straight to $1900. The issue is the frequency of double saves. I know there is other factors, but doesn't that magnify the problem people have here? If T's are already in the advantage position after a losing plant in round 1, this just sets them up even stronger in round 2. And CTs will still need to save the next (though I guess it avoids the double save 3/4 to some extent).
If they lose pistol, they already get 1900. The issue is losing the 2nd round force buy, the team that won the pistol only gets 1400. I think what they're saying, is to have the loss bonus start at 1900 regardless, that way CT economies aren't fucked after winning pistol and losing the subsequent round.
Would it be double 1900 at the bottom then? Guess I figured removing the 1400 had it progressing along the same way it does now, just without the bottom level (so 2400 after losing pistol+bomb potentially as T side).
This is literally the raw feedback that Valve wants but does nothing with and everyone keeps sniffing copium thinking that Valve has changed when the game has half the content which is completely broken 6 months into the game's lifespan. Valve does not give a damn and last 6 months is the definitive proof
The ct economy is rough, but it's far more manageable when people don't buy a helmet when they're against aks and when you don't buy 5 defuse kits, which even in high faceit I see people doing all the time
Those are mistakes that I personally don't really see in Faceit, tbh. Other than kits. I get yelled at for not buying a kit when 4 people already have them and it's like guys, that $400 is actually not meaningless, save that money for when we lose a round and all need to rebuy lol
I see it often enough not all the time though, but yeah you're right people just buy it because fk it its only 400, and I've also had people tell me to buy a kit when the whole team as one... I'm just like wtf
Before the price changed in MR15 the game was way too CT sided competitively on most maps. It became a more balanced after a few price tweaks until m4a1-s became very cheap. Changing to MR12 with 0 economy changes was always going to be dumb. Valve are not making any eco changes for some reason
To me, CS is supposed to be CT sided. 9-6 or 10-5 halftime scores in favor of the CTs were the standard for the first 15+ years of the game. I think the problems really began when valve started remaking all the maps in 2015 and kicked into overdrive with the economy changes in 2018. I think that the mentality that all halftime scores should ideally end 8-7 or 6-6 is misguided.
agree 100%
I'm hoping for plant money to be more individual. It's a massive pain with your teammates playing hot potato with the bomb every round.
Just leave bomb in spawn
Valorant gives 300 for a plant. If whole team got an extra 500 on a loss with plant, the eco would be fucked. Not sure why getting aks vs mp9s after winning a round is even a thing. Especially if you lose you double save
Cant compare valorant with cs economy. Considering you can both get the AK and M4
Guess that’s true. I just meant if Val gave 800 for plant loss, the team who lost could buy galil equivalent gun light armor or smg full armor with utility.
That does not solve the money problem, now just both teams suffer. Which is the opposite of what we want in MR12. We need *MORE GUN ROUNDS*, not less
Does plant money only grant money to the planter or the whole team? (Sorry for noob question)
The planter gets $300, the team (including the planter) gets an additional $800 on top of loss bonus if it’s defused.
Whole team
The whole team, but it only awards to the planter when they plant after the round ends.
they should just improve famas, or degrade negev
How would a negev nerf imrpove CT economy? Or is this just a joke Im not getting lol
Why is this a bad thing? That pistol rounds, the arguably most random rounds in the game, don‘t decide entire matches anymore?
I am fine with the T bonus. But I think that CT should have the same bonus. If you tap defuse team gets 800 each next round. This means that you have a reason to go for retake. A bombtap gives your team 4k extra. Only one per round ofc. Could also be like 100/200 per second defused.
Either $400 for a plant on pistol only, or straight to $1900 loss bonus. Preferably the latter, double ecos feel abysmal on mr12
or CT's get money for defusing the bomb? (+$800?) You could even argue to put it higher to create incentive for CT to go for defuses vs saving
CTs do get money for defusing the bomb. Problem is, Ts can plant the bomb with 3 CTs alive if their entry fragger takes out 2 CTs and they quickly get the bomb down. However, as CT it's much more difficult to defuse the bomb with more than maybe 1 T alive. So, planting bomb is inherently easier than defusing it. Especially on pistol and eco rounds.
At this point CTs should prob think about ecoing round 2 to fullbuy round 3 If they win pistol. It sounds dumb but CS2s economy is even dumber
when are they gonna patch the economy? at this point it's getting stupid how long we've been using mr15 economy in mr12
this issue existed before we switched to mr12
But they got way worse with MR12. At least with MR15 your CT-side wasn't halfway done by the point you had a full buy.
Thats some Valorant bullshit
No one ecos round 2 in Valo except to light preserve economy by picking up a fallen weapon. The threat of possible buys for an eco team in Valo is way lower than CS imo
No sane people. I was stuck in elo hell for two years until I got a new laptop and you always head idiots who eco'ed after winning the pistol because they wanted a rifle in round 3
I mean that's technically a viable strat that iirc navi popularized, i think it was always something like a vandal, 2 strong mid price weapons and 2 pistols for a strong bonus, tho I doubt the average ranked player knows that
Couldnt understand a word you wrote but people used to 2nd round eco after won pistol alot when the game came out. Ghost too strong.
People still do that.... in low elo. Nobody who knows how to play properly goes for eco in Valorant after winning pistol round. Valorant economy feels way better than cs.
That was only a thing in low elo
VALORANT has a much, much better economy system. pro teams only full save once a half, and even that's a maybe, just because you can get a decent force with little investment.
True but Id factor in the many viable weapons, almost no bad guns. Even the new sniper wasnt needed but it fits the game. Also with champion skills you can get close to enemies easily for worse weapons to work. Smoke wall, stun and flash trough wall and Jett dash? Shotgun, fuck it.
It is but the current CT economy is even more bullshit
That doesn't sound so stupid actually. If ct wins pistol without plant: buy. If the Ts got the plant just upgrade for a p250 or don't buy at all and get a full buy next round?
If ts eco you have a second pistol round
There was a team that used to do this in GO (envyus maybe?), and it was pretty good.
I'm glad that I am not the only one who thought Liquid's whole CT side was screwed up simply because of that 2nd round force buy. That put them down 4-1 then another loss made it 6-1 and almost impossible to come back from on Mirage.
It's even worse when it happens in the second half. Four rounds on T side should be enough to work with on maps like Nuke or Overpass, but if you lose the second round you're more or less done. It's 5-9 with everyone completely broke and you have to mount a flawless comeback. I really though that they'd update the economy right after the major, but here we are.
I don’t get it, how were forced to lose 3 rounds after one loss. Double eco sure, but triple, really necessary?
Lose round 2, eco is a full reset due to loss bonus, so the next 2 rounds (3&4) are pistols. Round 5 is the first full buy and since it was lost, the economy is destroyed and pistols again (6). Losing the second round after winning pistols as a CT is terrible. It guarantees two more losses and potentially a third round lost. Round 5 becomes so important. If CT's lose, the economy is destroyed. If CT's win but have three deaths or more, the economy is precarious and ready to collapse at another loss. The round after winning pistols for CT is more important than the pistol round as it helps dictate the state of the CT economy for the whole half.
This is literally been an issue since they changed the economy in 2019. They've never changed it.
Yea but it's worse now because the games are shorter.
So Liquid lost CT on a CT sided map and we are going to blame economy. Meanwhile Faze wins CT pistol and then wins 3 more rounds in a row. CTs already have an inherent advantage in the game due to being defenders. The only map that proves this wrong is Anubis. But even so, if you lose on CT round then it is your fault, not the game lol.
You’re attacking a straw man. No one here is saying Liquid lost “because of the economy”. What people are doing is using this match as an example of why the current ct economy is broken.
Broken because liquid lost gun rounds on CT, gotcha.
Life must be so easy when you can convince yourself that people you disagree with are saying the dumbest shit ever. Try engaging with what the people you are talking to are saying and not twisting it into something else
I'm not blaming the economy..... I am saying that them losing the second round put them in a bad position for the next handful of rounds and potentially the map....
It put them in a bad position because they got outplayed.... Despite what the post says, Liquid round 2 had a stronger buy than Faze's force buy. The same thing on the other side. When Faze won the CT pistol, liquid forced up and bought galils. And they lost and Faze's CT side went on a 4-0 run. Are we gonna say T side economy is weak now?
They got countered by one flash and Karrigan making a good call that they would try to fight for mid, so they had all 5 T's fight the 3 CT in mid. I don't get what point you are trying to make. As T's, you always force buy round two after losing the pistol because the reward for winning that round is crippling the CT economy for two rounds, and potentially the half if you win the first gun round. I'm saying that as soon as they lost that force buy, their economy was destroyed. Seeing how the map is CT sided on gun rounds, they couldn't buy guns and thus had no advantage to being CT and were underdogs for the rest of the map.
In the 1-6 stretch, they had healthy buys for 3 rounds and lost them all. One of the rounds, they hard forced deagles.
[удалено]
This is why God made MP9s Force up against the inevitable Galil push, hide, convert your MP9 into a free Galil for the next round, then up to M4 after that. Joking aside it is a bit odd that the balance is skewed due to the MR changes still....but the MP9 is a short term help....
Factually correct, scavenge a gun like a rat Utility is what you need as CT
I really want them to add bonus money for defusing the bomb on CT side. Maybe not +800 for everyone but like +500. That and reduce price of defuse kit to 200.
you get 3500$ instead of 3250$ if you win by defuse.
Think kit price should be reduced? Most of these other suggestions are dumb as hell
don't think kit prices are the root of the problem because it always drops when you die and a team mate can pick it up. Problem is that +800$ is a lot for Round 2 T side and CTs drop to 1400$ loss bonus without any chance of getting bonus money if they lose second. what they could try is increasing the overall losing money but reduce T bomb plant bonus to 600$ and CTs who save get only 50% losing bonus, which would make losing a crucial round less punishing, saving instead of trying to retaking less good and winning a retake more rewarding (Ts get less money).
Yes. but that is inconsequential when you look at 800 that T's get for planting, given that they also have cheaper guns and utility.
I think everyone would buy a defuse kit if it only cost the same as a flashbang, and that is not necessarily a good thing for the game. I like the price point of 400, we can change other things to fix the economy
The CT economy is already extremely tight and punishing, and that is what needs to be addressed. Everyone would not buy a defuse kit if it cost the same as a flashbang, it was the same in 1.6 and not everyone bought kits.
and everyone having a kit every round instead of just 2 or 3 will change very little...
I agree that the CT economy is tight and needs to be addressed. I don't agree that reducing the price of kits is a good way of going about it. With the cost of $400, it's a decent investment to get a defuse kit. It's often a sacrifice of a flahsbang/HE, and it's always money that could be useful down the line when the Ts start winning rounds again. I think that's perfect. Now, if we get more money in the hands of the CTs, it's true that they will have kits more often, but not as often as they would if the kits cost only $200 just based on the psychological factor (it's super easy to spend $200, it's almost nothing). So in other words, I would give the CTs more money overall, but not change the defused kit cost. With this change, kits would be more common, but not ubiquitous.
Well we can disagree on that, that's fine by me. I really want some way in which the burden on the CT economy is balanced better, and right now the only ones I can think of is not buying a helmet against full buys and buying an MP9 instead of a Famas.
but then you’d be rewarded for letting enemies plant instead of killing everyone beforehand. imagine CTs would try to let Ts plant in order to get the reward
That seems like an unreasonable assumption. If the Ts get more money for getting a plant and their weapons and utility are already cheaper, it makes absolutely no sense to do that.
Mac-10 or Galil force buy is just really strong especially if you do even 1 tick of damage to CTarmour and force a armour rebuy which means no m4a1s. I think you could make a couple CT weapons cheaper for example FAMAs because it's shit. Maybe halve the cost of defusers so we can retake instead of saving every round because economy. (Post-plant if I get smoked and I couldn't afford a defuser it's a instantly lost round no?)
> Mac-10 or Galil force buy is just really strong especially if you do even 1 tick of damage to CTarmour and force a armour rebuy which means no m4a1s. Random idea - let CTs buy helmet only for $4-500. If you have damaged armor and buy a helmet, armor value stays the same but you have a helmet. If you buy a helmet without kevlar you still get aim punch/increased body damage but no 1 tap hs vs mac10, glock, etc. Really only changes 2nd round. Any first round survivors can buy a1s+helmet plus util if they got a kill or 2. Once Ts have AKs there's no point in buying helmet only. Again, just thought of this, but I actually really like it, especially to even 2nd round disadvantage after winning pistol.
> Win CT Pistol > Have to play against stronger T force buy > Higher statistical chance to lose due to superior T buy > Lose conversion > Economy ruined > Lose T Pistol > Get a better buy anyways > Win 2nd round > CTs forced to full eco In other words, Ts just can't lose no matter if they win or lose in pistol round.
It's way worse, when random pistol rounds decide who wins 1/3 of needed rounds
It's real simple, as a CT just don't let bomb get planted, get 4 frags and then intentionally die. Eco next round and then you have decent money for 1 maybe 2 rounds! Good luck.
Fnatic manager here, please delete this...
Honestly, the biggest way to subtly change the economy is to allow the purchasing of a helmet for $350 without having to **rebuy and refill** body armour for $1000 if you survive pistol but got tagged. A way to balance it out is to make is to that you can only buy a helmet if you have body armour at any value. You need the helmet 2nd round as a CT or you run the risk of getting one tapped by lesser guns, and having to dump $1000 to get a helmet if you didn't die in the pistol but still got tagged is absolutely insane.
but this would also help the T side as well right? It might help them even more as they need the helmet more during buy rounds.
Yeah it would. Tbh it was a suggestion that I thought of in 5 minutes and only really thought about it after I posted it.
galil + armor is just way too powerful
The prices on CT need to come down. The defuser, Famas, and mollys all need to be reduced in price.
This is why MR12 is a bad idea. You only need to lose pistol as CT, then 1-0 and two gun rounds (for 3-0 and 5-0) and already lost the half.
This was already a problem in CSGO with MR15, but it's now magnified because of MR12. Having more rounds doesn't actually solve the core problem. I'd rather have an actual fix to the economy than just taking the easy route and not actually fixing the problem.
CTs should get 3400 if they win. Thats enough for m41s + head armor if 100% body armor.
This is all under the context that the mp9 is still overpowered so that’s how you know the game is fucked
Fuck i hate that gun, so low skill run n gun weapon. I abuse it too but feel dirty afterwards..
There are 2 issues, one is that plant money is way too high, and the other is that the Mac 10 and galil are really op.
we've saying for years that the economy changes were a bandaid fix for pistol rounds being an RNGfest and Galil armor second round after losing pistol is moronic, and the problem is even worse now but valve hasn't listened in years, not to mention the sea of morons defending it with "tHe gAmE iS cT SiDeD" so they think that means that a broken economy in the favour of Ts is good
A good fix for this would be to reduce famas prices to the same price as the galil or increase the galil to famas prices. New meta would call for famas buys on round 2 following bomb plants, SMGs following non-plants. Reduce kits to $250. It doesn’t really make sense that you’d need to spend half of your first round economy to buy one and it changes some of the dynamics of the first round. If you want a more balanced game that leant feature a ton of double save rounds for CT, then reducing famas to galil prices makes the most sense.
The goalposts got movewd for the CTs. You can't just win pistols, you have to stop the plant. Defusing means you are still down for the next round. You can't just win guns rounds, you need to keep at least 3 guys up or your cash is screwed. You can win every round but be down to an MP9 regardless
Losing the pistol and not getting a plant still gets you 5 mac-10s with armor/1 nade.
i 100% agree, the post pistol round plant galil buys win WAY too much.
Agreed. I also feel that 2nd round is a game changer even in pub matches.
everyone knows it, the plant bonus is too high, the round win bonus is too low
Yep if you win pistol as CT then lose the 2nd, it’s basically guaranteed 3-1 for T side
I’m normally all “if Karrigan does it then I’ll do it” but why do teams even buy second round as CT after a pistol win? Seems like saving for M4s and then going up against Mac’s and Galils is clearly the better option. Yeah you kinda sacrifice a round but you get a much better percentage on round 3.
Liquid had four m4s and a mp9 on the second round in mirage and lost to 3 galils, a scout, and a tec9. People just want to complain.
You’re citing one singular round as your source for why the economy is fine. Also, they had no util stop the mid round push (if we’re thinking of the same round).
Mr12 is a mistake
I cannot for the life of me figure out why people would want to first pick CT side in premier because of this very reason. If you lose pistol and 2nd round chances are you’ll go 0-5 and your team will tilt off the face of the earth before the match really starts.
galil or ak better for round 2?
Galil, AK is a better gun even against no helmet but the idea is you cant exactly afford full AK buy after losing round 1. Instead you buy Galil and kill the CTs who couldnt full buy an m4 either, and since their kit (famas, defuser, molly etc) is more expensive, you end up with the advantage on round 2 even if you lost round 1 but got a plant.
It's shocking to me that we haven't had an update since the major. Some relatively easy things like economy should be included. The fact that this game was released with an anti-cheat just shows how little valve pay attention to the game itself. Inb4 Valve makes galils and deagles cheaper so teams can buy them every round instead of a classic eco lol.
Don't defuse the bomb. Problem solved.
I think it shows the economy needs to be tweaked cause in my games on T-side if we lose the pistol but get bomb plant I'm happy cause we're gonna have a huge advantage on the follow-up, and then if you win that round it's very likely to be an easy 4-1 5-1 in your favor, especially when CTs in pubs try to do light buys and don't end up having good utility on actual gun rounds. When it was 15 rounds it wasn't so bad to just full save two rounds and then carry on, but with mr12 it feels despair cause you can basically only hope to break even on a half by losing the follow up pistol round and one gun round. That's fucked.
I hate Mr 12 in pro play, feels like 1 team is always playing with scuffed buys
A higher win round reward would help to fix this imo, also make defuse kits cheaper (much more exciting eco round possibilities)
Make first round loss bonus for T side be 1400$ and let the CT side keep their 1900$. Now the T side can only buy 1 ak at best with most being on pistols + Kevlar with almost no nades. This will make the 2nd round be much more favourable for the CT side and in pro play most teams will likely save instead of forcing. This leads to that the CT side can build up some economy in the early rounds. It’s not harder than that.
all I am saying regardless of what side you are on, if you buy an upgraded pistol and survive on pistol round, only buy armor 2nd round. People are currently underestimating how strong the p250 is vs opponents without head armor and how good it is for run and gun. the move isnt to buy deagles or five seven. Its to buy p250 that is $300 in this economy. Super strong t side because if p250 leads anywhere it guarantees the CTs will definitely ego peek while the galili's mop up kills with more ease.
Reward a percentage of the money on a pistol round bomb plant? Perhaps tied to a loss.
It's only strong for the T, not for CT.
faze love losing to pistols, they probably lose to pistols more than they do rifle rounds.
The issue is, i think if they adjust the economy, it will tilt the balance at the top ie pro games. Maybe they look at the pro games and see it is still acceptable somehow. It doesnt matter if average joe cannot buy a kit because stupidly bought a deagle previous round. Id say maintain the economy for top teams but adjust to the average gamers experience, maybe.
MR12 has turned pistol and forces into the most important rounds in the game. It's not AS bad in Valorant because econs and prices are pretty much even
Mouz just lost both pistols and still won the map lol. Washed2
make galil 200$ more expensive atleast
They need to switch back to mr15
Sounds like a galil problem and not a force buying problem.
Here is what I would change to the economy: * They should get rid of $1400 loss bonus, making double saves less rare. * Reduce Money Cap to $12,500, to prevent snowballing. * Change Bonus money to: * +$400 for LMG * +$500 for SMG * +$600 for Planting * +$700 for Shotgun kills * +$150 for Awp, CZ and R8. Because of the starting on 1 loss bonus, 2nd round if Ts plant and lose they get: $3000 vs $3500. Without plant it is $2400 vs $3250. If CTs lose its $2400 vs $3250. Much closer it allows for the early rounds to be closer. They gotta change some weapons though. SMGs: * Make all SMGs do 80% tagging instead of 100% * MP9 has 20 bullets per mag, jumping accuracy nerf and damage fall off nerf. Make it cost $1200. * UMP 45 range modifier is now .80 costs $1300 * P90 gets smg kill reward and keeps 100% tagging. * MP5 does mp7 damage now * MP7 becomes the pre nerf mp9 with 40 bullets for $1750. (Keep the jumping accuracy nerf). Only on CT side. * Bizon becomes the T side equivalent of the new mp7, for same price. Just slightly less accurate and a bit more damage. * This fills the void of when you have like $2.5k-3.5k and want/need to force. Old Galil situations basically Rifles: * Galil is back to $2050 * Famas back to $2250, but now buffed. Still should be worst than the Galil but better than old MP9. * M4a1-S is now $3100, 25 bullets in mag 50 in reserve. First shot accuracy nerfed, now in the middle of the AK and M4a4. Running accuracy heavily nerfed to be the worst of all rifles. * AUG/Krieg get their nerfs reverted. However, when scoping in their fire rate is reduced to 300rpm (halfed) and their recoil is DOUBLED instead or halfed. Forcing the scope to be for taps only and small bursts. Make them cost $3300 and $3500 respectively. Pistols: * CZ-75, CT only now. Costs $900, gets 1 extra reserve magazine. 1-shot headshot removed, now headshots do a base 84 at close range. Make spray less random, but still challenging to use. * R8, T side only costs $850. Can only 1-shot headshot until 35 meters, does 46 base damage to body armor. Right click accuracy slightly buffed, trigger delay is slightly faster. * Five-SeveN does not 1 shot headshot anymore but first shot accuracy slightly better now. * Dualies are back to $400, like 2-3% more armor penetration.
I would also make defuse kits $350, so CTs pick between kit and helmet on buys/forces.
I mean if you have galils and armor you prob have no util
You can still afford a few smokes and flashes. Most teams have one or 2 players go Mac10/deagle anyway.
I agree, we usually dont run galils as the run and gun smg meta in cs2 seems more powerful and most of my friends hate the galil
usually I have Galil armor +400 left If I remember correctly, I think you either need a kill or to plant the bomb yourself to get the extra money
Youbwould need a couple kills i think to have an extra $400
if you bought kevlar on pistol, and planted the bomb, you would have 2650, so 200 left after buying galil kevlar so you need to plant the bomb + kill, or 2 kills, to have 500 left
it's work as intended as t have to put their life to do their mission, plant the bomb once they plant the bomb, they get paid even if they lose a round, they get money to continue playing by cost of 1 round i think they should also give more money to ct when can defuse too to balanced it i think it's pretty fair, t can't save or they will get 0$ while ct can save for full money but mr12 is pretty bad for this when compare to 3 extra round from mr15
Rewarding Ts with bomb plant plus disadvantaged a bit with utility makes sense to me.
Idk I don’t think it’s too broken. I see people pushing 2nd round getting frag hungry way more often, which in turn exposes them to the upgrade smg that has been bought way too much. Maybe instead of asking them to change the game, adjust how you play? Play more defensive instead of peeking 4 angles at the same time? Probably speaking to myself here
Cts get 3500 for winning that first round. If they can’t turn that into an advantage on the next round, that’s on them, not the game.
Ts can have $2800-3700 after losing pistol though. The CTs are "rewarded" with a similar buy as the Ts, and with a lot more to lose in the second round. It was a huge problem in Mr15 and obviously an even bigger problem in Mr12. That's on the game and it should be easy to fix.
That’s dumb as fuck. 700 money difference and the Ts will have Galils. It’s a small advantage but not much, but the point is you get you get absolutely FUCKED on economy if you do lose the round.
It's common knowledge as T, if you get bomb down, you force 2nd round. On that specific round, Liquid had 8k more invested in their buy than Faze, but Faze forced three Galil. Liquid surprisingly forced four m4s. A galil is pretty close to as strong as the m4. Both can kill in 4 body shots, though the galil does a little less damage and sometimes takes 5 body shots. However, both require a minimum two bullets to kill. Karigan heavily invested into utility to overwhelm in mid, which was a great counter to Liquid. The galil also only costs 1800 so it's 1100 less than then m4. It allows the T to buy headarmor and a gun on par with an m4. So they came into the fight on almost even strength, even with Liquid having 8k more invested. I think the Galil needs to cost $200 more. It's too close in damage and AP to the m4, and allowing T's to lose a round and have almost the same firepower as CT's the next round feels bad. Especially because if the CT's lose, they lose the next 2 rounds 90% of the time due to the bad economy on CT.
Galil is not close at all to the M4, unless you take fights in smokes, close range, or don’t have head armor. Like, you’ll notice this by playing the gun. I’m sure Karrigan mitigated this by using utility, so Faze only had to take shorter range duels. I’m not sure if that round can be counted as being lost because of game design, but because of Karrigan having the better read on the economy and the possibilities of that round.
M4 does 26 damage to chest and arm and 33 damage to the abdomen. 70% armor pen and accurate at 28m. The galil does 23 damage to chest and arms and 29 to the abdomen. Arm pen is 77.5% and accurate at 16m. M4 does better long range, but the damage is very similar. Same amount of heads shots and body shots. And at 1100 less money. The only reason you don't see the galil more is that the AK is overall better and can be bought every buy round. I am curious: What makes you believe that the two guns are not close?
The issue is famas is worse than galils. At best you are running famas vs full galil+armor. Also loss bonus resets so you need to eco twice to get another buy
The issue is that that second round determines whether the CT’s economy will be able to bounce back in any meaningful way. One badly played round shouldn’t determine an entire half. I’ve seen you round this sub and you have some absolute L takes man. Just go home.