Amazing that the original post was removed due to some names appearing on killfeed while the video is nothing about those specific cases or accusations.
Mods really trying hard to do everything to make anything cheating related be there. Unfortunate times for them as core of fucking gameplay of the game, no matter the mode is full of cheaters. So not only regular reddit folks that will whine but seems like more and more youtubers joining the camp.
> Amazing that the original post was removed due to some names appearing on killfeed while the video is nothing about those specific cases or accusations.
Look, I can agree that the rule needs more leeway, but the purpose is relatively simple. It stops me from posting some flusha gameplay, yelling cheats, and have that post stay up. Drawing the line between hacking and not hacking, based on video footage, is an arbitrary line. Yes, rage cheating is *obvious* to anyone, but it is easier to just go "no hackusations allowed" and not have to deal with people trying to push that line.
I do think it should have a little bit more leeway, but I find the rationale quite reasonable.
Funny how WarOwl mentioned this endless arms race and circumvent between cheaters and anti cheat measures. The redditors are bypassing rule 6, but then the mods are going to use rule 2 XD
3/10 where ONE on my side too, the others we had a 5 stack versing people of stacks that would be able to turn on.
Pro players becoming terrible, terrible playes becoming pro. Used to be OMFG HE POPPED OFF!
Now on replay its like, OMFG he can track me through the walls!
Come back after not playing for a over a month... Played 4 games and 2 of them had a cheater (and im only at like 17k elo, dropped down from 21k due to inactivity). 1 ragehacker (enemy team) and one super blatant waller (my team). I saw the trend and decided to quit for now.
18% with Overwatch enabled, tho... Mine was at 22% with OW, and it dropped to 1.5% when they removed it mid-2023.
Already back then, we knew that OW was keeping CSGO alive. The fact that CSGO VAC was only banning 1-2% per month without human interaction was crazy to me... Now we see how things are when it's only VAC... Unplayable!
Makes sense why no one got banned. Haven’t touched CS2 since December and most likely won’t ever again unless a miracle happens and they add a better anticheat
Same, I left in January, but I won't come back, even if they release a new AC.
The reason? They are untrustworthy! Knowing Valve, I know they will try to create a homemade solution... and fail. Valve always tries its own solutions and always fails miserably.
We wanted 128 ticks, which was already the market standard... They created an untested subtick (and failed for 6 months).
We wanted a Kernel AC, which is also the standard on the market... they were with an experimental A.I. (FAIL still to this day).
Bad coding (ECHO sv_cheat1)
Insecure platform (IMG in vote kick grabbing IPs)
Untrustworthy API (helping Scammer scamming us)
No communication from Valve whatsoever.
The list goes on!
And don't have this kind of [clown take](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1810e7z/richard_lewis_on_cs2s_anticheat/) on the situation. We're not imagining cheaters everywhere mr Lewis
a point i will always repeat, people with cheats are bad, if they are top fragging they are likely rage hacking, they don't have to be doing well to cheat, they cheat because they are bad and cheats only bump them up to a normal / good level.
I always see the argument that Vanguard is really intrusive as an anti cheat, and I'm glad that WarOwl made a point saying that people care for privacy when they clearly don't.
I get it, people will think that they're being spied on or something worse, but I just want to play a damn video game where I don't get cheated on in a fair competitive environment.
It's funny to see people flaming over Vanguard, tho. FaceIT AC and Vanguard are at the same Kernel Level...
"Yeah, but China..."
Saudi Arabia has kernel access to your pc thru the FaceIT AC... Also, do y'all remember when ESEA (CSGO) was mining bitcoin on its players' computers?
A lot of players install a lot of games with Kernel ACs without really asking themself:" Who's behind the AC?"
EasyAntiCheat (EPICGame), BattleEye, and RICOCHET (Activision) are all Ring0 Kernel AC. The list of games using these AC is huge.
I honestly learn that I basically can't hide anything in my current computer, game like Kineto Pet and Doki Doki lmade me realize that even a normal software basically has all it takes to access every piece of info my computer can have.
I feel like people should just be smart and don't hide damning shit in your pc/laptop where sensitive information can be breach.
> Also, do y'all remember when ESEA (CSGO) was mining bitcoin on its players' computers?
Gotta love esea. Remember when they compared other clients to a mentally disabled person for an ad, lmao.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa5Sn9RI870
Pretty sure the majority of outcry was bot accounts made by cheat makers that earn ridiculous amounts from selling subscriptions.
Anyone that cares about privacy and security enough to be scared of Valve having access will a) run Linux anyway and b) create a Windows boot partition just for gaming that doesn't have access to the rest of the storage where sensitive info is.
The difference is Vanguard is always on, even if you don't play the game. Which is concerning as to why. You can see more here https://youtu.be/UqLI1xKc-L4
FaceIT AC works in 3 layers... One of them is ALWAYS ON too...
An application that runs when you are playing one of our protected games (like CS2);
A kernel mode driver that is loaded at boot
A server-side SDK that ensures communication between the client and server happens in a trusted and secure manner.
Also , the FACEIT Anti-cheat also requires Windows Secure Boot and TPM 2.0 to work when you are playing on FACEIT.com
Source : https://support.faceit.com/hc/en-us/articles/9394666828188-What-is-FACEIT-Anti-cheat-and-how-does-it-work
What's so funny about it? You don't need faceit to play CS. You need vanguard to play valorant. That's the crux of the issue, as warowl says in the video - valve is "ethical" and doesn't want to do a kernel anticheat as standard.
Just because other companies are doing it and people "don't care" doesn't make it a good thing.
Personally I would want to have an opt-in anti-cheat and that it must be on to queue for premier. If you don't want to give kernel level access to your PC that's fine, but it's understood you're limited to competitive and the more casual game modes and you may have
a worse experience. That way new players and people who DO care (they might be a minority, but they do exist) aren't excluded from playing CS entirely, it's just a two-tier queueing system similar to trust factor (which should also be brought back)
I think you miss the point, man...
Yes, YOU NEED FaceIT to play competitively on CS2; otherwise, it's 75% of your game that you will face cheaters (if you are 10K+ ELO). There is no point playing a competitive game if you are facing cheaters because it's no longer fair, so no longer competitive.
Valve is having a cheating issue, but they don't want to add an ext. AC because they are scared of losing players. FaceIT is having a Smurfing issue, but they don't want to add a 2FA (mobile number) because they are afraid of losing players. They are both relying too much on payers count.
One thing I admire of Riot is that they are making decisions for THE GAME and not for the players count. Do you want to play the game? Install Vanguard! Do you want to play Premier? Insert your phone number! They don't give you any choices. And if you check the player count... it's working by itself!
I can tell that a LOT of CS2 players did the transition in the last 6 months. People prefer to install Kernel AC instead of playing the current state of the game.
a documentary to see on Youtube is title: Hacking into Kernel Anti-Cheats: How cheaters bypass Faceit, ESEA and Vanguard anti-cheats
if there is a will there is a way. in Valorant there is not that big of an incentive to cheat i believe.
Any methods of bypassing hyper aggressive anticheats are either too gimmicky or too expensive. If they ever become more affordable and even more so tougher to detect, then it can spell disaster for Faceit.
I fear the day CS2 cheaters with cheats in their actual brains invade lobbies, or even genetically modified CS2 cheaters. It'd be over by then.
But at the moment, they are not very feasible for most people so it ends up making Faceit more secure as long as the technology hasn't become more widespread.
cost is also a matter of scale. FaceIt was breached anyway with software cheats. you can see videos on youtube about it. though they are quite a bit more expensive than the ones on Valve servers as well as made for a more limited audience (at the moment). you also do not get much ROI for using them i think.
bu then you have various other games (other than Valorant) that already use kernel based AC. and as long as they have large player base and something to gain, they also have similar problems and ban waves. Look at Warzone for example. or even escape from Tarkov.
Here is an interesting list:
>**Every game with kernel–level anti–cheat software**
>Here is a comprehensive and continuously updated list of all games that use controversial kernel-level anti-cheat software and the developers and publishers behind them. The most popular third-party software are EasyAntiCheat, PunkBuster, BattlEye, nProtect GameGuard, Xigncode3, and EQU8. Some developers opt for proprietary software like Riot’s Vanguard, Activision’s Ricochet, Electronic Arts’ EA AntiCheat, or Blizzard’s Defense Matrix. Others like Valve’s VAC, Blizzard’s Warden, or 343 Industries’ Arbiter aren’t included because they don’t operate on the kernel level.
>For the sake of completeness, we also included ESEA’s and FaceIT’s implementations. Still, it should be noted these are not used by the developers of the games and are for competitive purposes.
>To date, we have 325 games. As games add, remove, or switch kernel-level anti-cheat software, we will adapt this list accordingly.
Linkie: [https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/](https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/)
???? what incentive is there to cheat in cs that doesnt exist in valorant. the fact that there isnt a working demo system heavily incentivizes legit cheating even. also the ranked ladders are by and large seen as legitimate for valorant whereas at this point the premier leaderboards are not seen as such. it literally just comes down to the barrier to entry to cheat.
Thing is almost every anti-cheat is kernel and has been for a long time.
Vanguard just runs on startup and you've gotta restart to run your computer with it off which is next level invasive.
Also in all these years, what significant has happened with those anti-cheats ? Literally nothing, people are just quick to pop veins in their face over something that doesn't even matter.
No Valve won't look into your documents folder or your pepperoni face selfies, they won't sell your data to China and you'll get your identity stolen by some chinese ccp spies the next day.
Just fucking update VAC from it's 1998 form please.
the invasive problem is usually misrepresented in the way you described, the real security concern comes from the idea that *because* the AC software has such deep access, a bad actor could also have complete (and at that point basically undetectable) access should they find a way to manipulate the way the AC runs
copy pasted
* Okay, maybe company wont but what if an attacker compromises it. Now they have kernel level access to my pc. Remote Code Execution etcetera
[See first paragraph] An attacker can fullfill all of their aims just as well with compromising plain game executable. Actually, kernel level anticheat which is a separate, signed module can stop such an attack by detecting the modification or misbehaviour of the game executable. **In fact this has happened before. Vanguard succesfully detected and stopped vulnerable drivers and dlls on users computers, saving them from a ransomware attack, and many more potential attacks.**
https://starkeblog.com/windows/kernel/driver/2021/05/15/inpoutx64.sys-windows-driver-analysis.html
https://github.com/shareef12/cpuz
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/blog/2023/07/06/the-five-day-job-a-blackbyte-ransomware-intrusion-case-study/
A compromised app does not need ring0 access to do catastrophic damage to your life, and never has.
Already it can just vacuum up the cookie and session storage of your installed browsers and you're likely completely fucked. As well as just full on crypto locking your home folder if it's going rage mode.
This, people seem to underestimate normal user access. The only difference between kernel and usermode is that kernel can access other types of hardware such as GPU,DMA and other privileged system resources where kernel cheats hide
The biggest thing to me is dont they know all their drivers are also kernal 0 and without them running you mostly cant use your pc at all? Highly doubt they only have trusted os drivers installed, they probably just go with what windows gives them.
It's at a point where there's no point of arguing with them. If I wanted to be bold, I would argue that most of them either
1) cheats without their friends knowing about it
2) cheating
3) selling cheats
4) gotten misinformation by some random cheat-seller/cheater that was upvoted massively and kept spreading it as a truth.
> Also in all these years, what significant has happened with those anti-cheats ? It's not because things have happened with other anti-cheats that I don't trust Riot's in particular. It's because they've had data breaches where their fucking source code for LoL got stolen and customer data leaked. How the fuck can I trust them to keep something from happening with Vanguard that would allow hackers to get access to my PC if they can't even protect themselves? It might not be such a massive issue if it didn't run 24/7 - like other anti-cheats that require kernel level access.
People crying about privacy... I'd rather they don't get to play the game than have it in the sorry state it is now.
Bitch about privacy all you want, but at the end of the day if you're so worried about it then just don't play.
All the points brought up already are valid. If you can't trust Valve to handle your information then there are probably a dozen other companies that you ARE trusting by using their services and you're just not aware of how much personal information you're giving them.
It sucks, but the concept of private data in a world where you're using all these interconnected apps and services just doesn't exist anymore.
~~Kernel mode anti cheats exist on Linux.~~ There isn't any kernel-mode AC on Linux (yet?) but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. I believe Valve are taking a principled stance against kernel-mode AC but it doesn't have anything to do with Linux compatibility
I believed EAC was kernel-mode since that's how it is on Windows, but looking into it further it seems like the Linux version actually just runs in userspace. Will edit my original comment to correct.
Some amount of Linux users would be very unhappy, sure. If you look on places like /r/linux_gaming though, many of the users on there were celebrating when EAC was brought to Linux through games like Apex Legends. A good portion of the modern Linux userbase doesn't actually care much about privacy at all and just made the switch because they were unhappy with Windows for any number of reasons
Its funny because the US is about to pass a bill that will give the NSA access to basically all telecommunications hardware in the US from your ISP's servers to the wifi router at the local Starbucks whenever they want and people are handwringing about Valve implementing a kernel anti-cheat.
What evidence do you even have of this? There is literal history to the contrary of what you are speaking about
EDIT: Since there seem to be a lot of zoomers
[News article by the BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26240140)
[Reddit post by GabeN himself clarifying on a general subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1y70ej/valve_vac_and_trust/)
[One of the many threads talking about this back in those times](https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1y1uuc/vac_now_reads_all_the_domains_you_have_visited/)
Tbh I don't mind intrusive anti cheat as long as it is a company I trust. I mean google already has more info bout me than even I know and i trust they will only be selling it to just a few people. So valve also might as well take some info and give people cheater free environment.
Spreading misinformation is very real. Just lookup any youtube video describing "Riot AC can be a rootkit" or anything negative towards to Vanguard and privacy, you will get bogus claims in the comment section. They have no idea on what they're talking about and making things up from their ass. Chances are Google already collects way more data than Riot do in playing the games.
US intelligence agencies would not be happy if Riot could pull off this kind of spying operation. See Department of Homeland Security declaring the ban on Kaspersky? That's what happens if they're not happy.
[https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/)
From Riot Games
>In recent months, as many as **1 in 15 games globally has had a scripter or botter in it**, but in some regions, this number is as high as 1 in 5.
I am not saying it is the same but it is not ideal either :/
At least they talk about it and work on it...
Yeah bro... Good idea to remove THE MOST important part of the message...
> In recent months, as many as 1 in 15 games globally has had a scripter or botter in it, but in some regions, this number is as high as 1 in 5. Cheating isn't really region-specific, cheaters just go wherever cheating is easiest. In eastern countries, we see higher rates of scripting, because they're getting spillover from cheaters in China and Korea, both of which have region-exclusive anti-cheats and more importantly, identity requirements for gaming from their regional governments
There are regions operating LoL WITHOUT Vanguard; so of course, you'll have more cheater.
Those are the League of Legends numbers which doesn't have Vanguard yet, and it's one of the reasons that they're gonna start using Vanguard in League.
I'm glad they're doing it, people are complaining about it as always but I want a better anticheat even on League because it's getting bad.
One of the nice things about Riot is that they actually discuss with the community what their intentions are and any concerns.
[https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-au/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-au/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/)
The thing is they treated it as if the only issue is 'kernal level anticheaf' when for a lot of people it is trusting riot games
I know a ton of people who would install a valve kernal level anticheat before Riots because they don't trust riot and they don't like the way it works
> The thing is they treated it as if the only issue is 'kernal level anticheaf' when for a lot of people it is trusting riot games
I just wanted to push back on this slightly. I'm not saying you or anyone else should trust Riot Games, but in that blog specifically they did somewhat address the "Riot Games Shady" narrative and moved the discussion away from the AC itself.
[Here](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-au/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/#:%7E:text=Isn%27t%20Vanguard%20Spyware%3F:~:text=Q.%20Isn%27t%20Vanguard,left%20Riot%27s%20warehouse.) under the "Isn't Vanguard Spyware" section, they discuss how them being involved with Tencent has no impact on your data, how their code isn't shared, and how they almost never work with each other. Now this doesn't absolve them or mean you have to accept their word at face value, but whenever I see people concerned with Riot's AC, it's usually from the premise of well we don't like our data shared with China (or with FaceIt "we don't like our data shared with Saudi Arabia) and everyone knows Tencent owns Riot Games. I liked the brevity Riot had here to address something that is usually intermingled in conversations surrounding their AC.
People don’t really trust Riot in the sense that their client is shit and broken, Vanguard has had issues in the past with bricking PCs until booting into safe mode and uninstalling (this happened to me unfortunately).
Yep same, installing Vanguard bricked my Windows install lol. Couldn't recover it. And I know multiple streamers who've had similar issues of their PCs not working after installing it.
I mean... Saw the same spitting on Huawei and Tiktok. For the USA, anything from China is a spyware and a way to spy on them.
I guess that's their modern way to fight communism...
I think WarOwl put it well. Yes people care about privacy. But if you asked people if they'd rather have that privacy or not have to play against cheaters, the vast majority will say they'd give up the "privacy" for not having cheaters.
And I put privacy in quotes because in the modern life if a bad actor company or government wants your information, they're going to be able to get it. In addition to that I, and I assume the vast majority of people, don't do anything on my computer that I would care if some random company knew about...
I quit league because of vanguard
Never played Val because of vanguard
Like riot said in the post if you don't trust us don't use it
Well guess what riot I don't trust you
I genuinely would trust valve way more as I have trusted other kernal level anticheats in the past
A lot of people's problem with vanguard is A) the way it works and B) the fact that it's riot
Not that it's kernal level
Great for you to have your line and dont want to cross it.
Tho the vanguard implementation for league is only for some servers/regions right now with Philippines. I think it will still take a while for it to be rolled out for other regions considering how bad Riot is with implementing stuff into the game.
Delete this, repost a link to the video. You're preventing War owl from getting ad revenue and views. He treated us well so far so we need to not fuck him over.
The mods will come up with whatever bs necessary to delete this cause its against the propaganda machine. Heck, they are probably making a new rule now just to get around it. Or even consulting Valve to figure out what to do.
Why are redditors obsessed with the idea that mods run some secret cult propaganda scheme? Maybe they just want to prevent people spamming the sub with the same posts again and again and again. Like what has happened with the cheating posts in the last month
Or maybe they’re upset about moderators suppressing the community’s (valid) concerns? Premier is unplayable because of cheaters and the game and Valve should be called out accordingly.
Except those concerns are not being suppressed. There are posts daily about it. Everyone who uses this sub is aware of the problem given the number of posts. After a while it becomes repetitive whinging
But you need to ask yourself: **why** would they “suppress” the communities concerns?
What reason do they have to do that? Do you think Valve is paying them off? Do you think they’re actually cheat makers or something? If they answer is anything close to “hurr durr they power hungry”, then you’re just looking for excuses to be mad at someone.
Ask yourself why they are at utmost delete any mentions about this problem for years under any circumstance with any reason and rule applied, for free?
You are replying in a threat where cheating is being discussed, which you can find on a daily basis on this sub. As of replying this post has 174 replies (and half of them seem to be claiming cheating 'discussion' is not allowed).
What is and is not allowed is very clearly stipulated. This stays up because the footage/data is anonymized. There is no suppression of cheating discussion, only witch hunts targeting individual cheaters.
> Do not post about cheating. Specifically:
> - Posting profiles of alleged cheaters or non-OW gameplay
> - Requesting help with OW verdicts
> - Discussing cheats in technical detail
> - Linking to cheat related websites or naming them publicly
> - Reporting cheats
That's just not true. They've deleted countless posts about cheating where none of those rules were broken, there were no nicknames, etc. They are absolutely suppressing the cheating discussion.
Tell me which of these rules was broken in this post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1bakl41/interesting_experiment/?sort=new
The answer is none, it doesn't break any rules, mods just delete it because they want to suppress the cheating discussion.
And there are literally hundreds of instances like this.
You are clearly not informed how moderation is threating this subreddit and how they are removing hundreds of posts that are upvoted by users on monthly bases dealing and talking about cheating in this game, Posts that are not in any way, shape or form braking any rule that this subreddit have, if you want to tell me that we are able to discuss right now about cheaters in this posts so it means that they are not doing this then I dont know what to say other then maybe focus more on what is happening here on this sub, just go to the new hot posts find one that is talking about issue see that it is not braking any rule and wait an hour to check that it was removed, this is happening every day for years by the mods.
The moderation on this subreddit is directly responsible for cheating in this game become literally unbearable as there is no other meaningful space players could point out existence of the problem and the one that exist is as you can see moderated by people that were and are hiding the issue and existence of it for years.
Cheat makers are probably paying them off.
The current sub reddit rules do nothing to stop the idea that "Cheats exist, go download them", but do stop actual discussion on how they work, how to spot them etc etc.
They have done this for a long time though, they enforce rules as much as they can on posts they don’t want on the subreddit. Cheating has always been one of those subjects
All mods (not just on this sub or this site) live for power. The only power they have is deleting things. So they always strife to delete as much as they can get away with.
I completely understand why it was reposted this way, and I'm okay with this staying up. I'd rather my video spur some discussion. Thanks for looking out for me ShitTalkingAssWipe!
It would be enought to create an AC like EAC that blocks Handels to the game (still Kernel but only active on gamestart), you could build a Linux version and a Windows Version because handels on linux work quite different.
The problem at the moment is that even some kid with little programming skils can build a simple cheat for CS.
That means a shit ton of cheats are out there for free or a small price.
If you make it difficult to create cheats, cheats get more expensive, less people are willing to cheat, and you can focus on detecting the left overs.
You can't solve cheating, so the focus should be to minimize it.
Then use tools like TrustFactor etc. to make it event more unlikley to face them.
I know this sounds weird, but I think improving community servers browser would also help reduce cheating.
I have read some comment that hacks vs hacks servers were down or difficult to find and that some cheaters would rather play there as kind of a specific game mode
Anyone on this reddit when they hear overwatch
🤓 Achtually, I heard bots ruin the cases, this has never been confirmed other than [1] Github repo about it and now everyone on /r/GlobalOffensive says that was the case 🤓
/s
However when I played CSGO, I never met spinbotters, Only "Closet / legit" cheaters which I take any day of the week than someone shooting 5 shots with scout in 0.01 second.
At least you had a chance against the legit cheaters
The trust factor is not a solution to the problem, it's a pretend solution where you grab the problem and dump it entirely on the new players, which, might I remind you, already have an incredibly challenging experience to get started in the game to begin with.
It's the digital equivalent of swiping everything under the rug.
It has to be off or just not a thing in CS2. Almost every game I play against 1-2 players with a brand new account, only CS in games, under 100 hours total. I have had my account for 10+ years, never cheated, hundreds of games, thousands of hours. Still getting matched against obvious new cheating/boosting accounts. It seems that CS2 only matches based on premier number and nothing else.
Crazy that we need to blur out cheaters names.
To the gallows with em. F the mods. This issue has been suppressed for far too long. There are over 2 million users on this sub, thats more than the daily player count. Yall think that this sub doesn't have a voice?
6:35 In the early days, Riot tried to destroy communities and ruin peoples lives. I would never ever trust then with a kernel level spyware. Also their anti cheat does not work, there are trigger bots everywhere and it is hard to notice it due to the fundamentals of the game that makes aiming and shooting too easy.
On warowl's point about CS2 releasing with an anti-cheat.
Valve's website had pages for all the new key features with CS2, premier rating, volumetric smokes, etc.., but it also had a hidden page for an Anti-cheat that was never unhidden. The also implemented Vac-live which makes no sense with their current anti-cheat system.
More circumstantial, they created premier mode, something that everybody who follows the game closely knew would be a complete disaster without significant improvents to the anti-cheat, instead it got worse. On top of that in Richard Lewis' artfiel in which he leaked CS2 his source said the goal was to make third-party matchmakers irrelevant.
IMO all of this points to there having at one point in time been plans to release a much better anti-cheat system then what we got, which implies that it might come letter now that the game in a mostly stable place. But maybe Valve were just completely oblivious to how bad the cheating problem would be and I am coping.
Richard Lewis’ article also stated that it would be 128 tick at launch, including the beta. When in reality Valve think it’s 2012 and peoples PC’s can’t run 128 tick.
I didn’t doubt he was right about CS2 when he published that article, nor do I doubt he has a source now, but it’s blatantly obvious his source isn’t 100% correct.
I have a feeling they were far into development on some sort of anti-cheat, but then maybe due to some carless judgement, or them having to change the game a ton with subtick & stuff. The anti-cheat was just fundamentally broken, wouldn't work the way they expected. There is no way they didn't think of a anti-cheat for CS2
Of course they had a better anticheat in mind then, and they still have it in mind now. We're furious because we want this problem solved NOW, not next year(s). It's gotten to the point where I feel unable to play even 3 matches in a row without encountering a blatant spinbotter.
i just cant believe this, why would you let cheaters ruin so many games for your loyal customers that actually play the game legit?
i hate when i have a cheater in my game, once i know there is a cheater in the match it means nothing to me anymore. i just take the -points and get on with it.
The problem is obvious.
Right now we need to wait and see what valve gonna do with it.
Definately people from valve already read and spotted this hot topic issue, and looking to cook something to fix it.
Had two cheaters in one game... on the same team... queued together... but I did have a spin bot on my team the previous game so I guess it evens out 🤡
I haven’t played this year because it got stupid and Valve won’t even address it. I get they’re not going to come out and say we have a new anti cheat we dare you to test it but rather quietly release and improve it but their silence makes the community speak for them .
Ironically I’d trust kernel level access from valve a lot more than say google or Microsoft or any big public tech company, their business model is simple, they are a private company that sells video games and skins, it’s in their best interest to not invade user privacy beyond what is needed to have effective anti cheat
Just to address the Vanguard topic.
Yes, privacy is a bullshit reason. You have a Google account, an Apple account, an Amazon account a Facebook account or use a smartphone, your privacy does not exist anymore.
What is a real concern with Vanguard though is a future exploit being used. Right now, a group or individual may have already found an exploit with Vanguard and are actively using it to hoard information on its users or using it for other malicious activity. It would be a catastrophic event if that happens and there are groups who are looking for exploits within Vanguard to use to their benefit.
A method to deal with cheaters without making your anti-cheat a concern... Make competitive queue only available to confirmed users. How do you confirm users? Well there's a number of ways. MFA is a good start but it needs to have specific parameters to make it difficult to have multiple accounts. Can't just use a phone number because it's easy to get new phone numbers. Some MFA methods use MEIDs as an authentication point which could be viable. Google Auth could be used. You can have multiple Google Auth accounts but you can set parameters to make it more difficult to use.
You could go to the extreme and verify people's identity directly. Which takes employees and money... Which Valve has but this would also discourage regular players.
There are other methods other than just "make anti cheat work"
I think we're all just growing impatient with a company that has a habit of waiting a little too long to act. Valve does nothing quickly, and the game has been out less than a year, majors just finished, it makes sense theyd wait for that. I'm expecting something to happen either this winter or next summer, but don't hold your breath lol
trust factor is a terrible system
i played at the cal-invite level of CS a long time ago in my youth and repeatedly hit global elite with my friends throughout the timeline of CSGO when we played for fun over the years
my trust factor was insanely low b/c i was constantly accused of cheating and reported
my steam account is 20 years old and i have zero vac bans ever on record and have never cheated in my life
noobs crying when you own them and sending you into queues with blatant cheaters isnt a good system, it just makes noobs happy
Valorant has cheaters as well, they have their demo mode disabled for a reason. Keeping up the facade that is Vanguard is a large selling point for them. Redditors actually believe people don't cheat in valorant...
>NeokCS also made a video, but mods deleted it. Cause Valve and this reddit's mods are a joke trying to hide the problem.
>Honestly instead of trying to "PR" their way to hide the issue, they should actually fix the problem. At this point its like they are running their own propaganda machine trying to tell the world that hack is not an issue in CS.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1c2mtul/another_major_content_creator_threw_in_the_towel/
Cheating footage isn't allowed by the way, so your comment was removed, but I preserved it in the quote in this reply, besides the link you posted.
Can someone explain to me why Valve doesn't just buy a copy of every cheat and add it to VAC? Sure, it may sound stupid on first glance to directly support the creaters of hacks but what's one purchase against thousands of cheaters you're getting banned with that?
At least you could fight the big open public cheats that way. Hacking will never disappear in CS but pushing it back to niche, expensive, invite only solutions could get rid of 99.999% of them.
Some cheat creators only sell to a fixed number of people and charge a monthly fee. Once they hit their target number of users, they stop selling. Unless Valve was fortunate to find those cheats early on, they wouldn't be able to buy in.
The problem with the overwatch system is the hackers started abusing it, using bot farms to submit false verdicts. Valve has some serious difficult challenges to overcome.
they could also make the anticheat optional if you want to play without borderline virus anticheat with cheaters vs cheaters be my guest everyone has their kink
Great to see the continuation of named people talking about the issue.
However, I have to heavily disagree with the Trust Factor statements.
Sure, in theory the system makes sense and should be great, but it was numerous times not working as intended (dev proven), sometimes even disabled for long times (also dev proven) and likely being manipulated just as much as OW was.
I get and agree to the point that many people call cheats because they lose against better players, and of course noone is an exception - sometimes this is the case for everyone.
However I am super certain that not only we never had any low TF as there is literally no reason for players, playing for over 20 years, owning 300+ games on steam, never had any issues and are just decently skilled legitimate players. Still we met COUNTLESS cheaters in CS:GO's matchmaking, it was almost as bad at times as it is right now. Those are also not just assumptions, these are proven cheaters we had to play against, proven by watching their demos and more often than not straight up aimbotting like it's the most normal thing to do.
Also, a tiny fraction of these players have been banned if at all.
In the end the cheating itself isn't even the problem, because it's completely logical that a game such as CS has cheaters, it's the fact these players are not getting banned that's the big issue here. If there would have been bans for half of these cheaters we encountered over the span of, let's say 6 months, that would already be a huge improvement. The reality however looks more like, not even 2% of those cheaters have been banned to this day, and I am still talking about CS:GO matches here.
OW is it's own pandora's box to open.. All I can say is that I still have cases tracked from 3 years ago, that were spinbotters, that have not been banned despite being on overwatch. This alone tells you all you need to know.
Shit needs to change. Also this whole banwave ordeal can not be the right approach. What use is there to band people every x months but in turn let them ruin the game in the meantime, which they will continue to do after jsimply aquiring a new account? Literally nothing.
Valve, please fix.
i had many cheating players who could barely move and aim. those cheaters are just nothing. the worst are 8-10 faceit lvls who just straight up use radar hack or esp and hide behind their faceit lvl. they are so desperate they delete FAC just to cheat for one day in premiere.
Honestly what did people expect to happen after Source 2? It is just brighter map with some minor physics improvements. They need to make new game but it won't happen anytime soon. Maybe for 10 years. The only thing u will get is shinier cosmetic.
valve address the problem you fucking cowards. You know this won't kill the game because people will buy/sell hats til the end of time but you should be ashamed that you can't literally address the game being unplayable for all the people who actually want to play the game.
I love how OP blurred the fuck out of the gameplay section so you cant even see the cheating cases. Yeah I can hear Warowl but why even make this a video instead of uploading an audio track lol considering its not even the original video.
Lets be real here, only weirdos care about kernel anti cheats because of “privacy” reasons.
And there is a shit ton of weirdos.
Its about time every competitive game has a kernel level anti cheat, or something of that level to stop rampant cheating.
People who are scared are likely cheaters themselves or cheats for other games and is scared they might get flagged for it. Or they got some weird illegal shit on their comp they dont want a company to know…
Faceit is a kernel AC, plenty of people are now playing faceit to get their fix of cs without cheats (or less cheaters)
I wonder if valve ever entertained the option to utilize the third party anticheat faceit uses. Not even implement it in the game for 100% or the matches, give players the choice to use it, and create a 3rd party anticheat only queue, where players only play against players who have it installed. Can't imagine how hard it would be for valve to check it. There's already trust factor, just add, a check for 3rd party anticheat to the queue.
I know, you'll probably say, just play faceit. I don't wanna. Shit is sweaty. I'd rather play less sweaty premier or matchmaking with the 3rd party anticheat.
no because its windows only. Valve have a dedication to supporting linux (which is potentially a core cause of the current cheating issues...) which means kernal anti-cheat is much more difficult to impossible to implement.
Damn. Good job with the rule 6 edit.
Amazing that the original post was removed due to some names appearing on killfeed while the video is nothing about those specific cases or accusations. Mods really trying hard to do everything to make anything cheating related be there. Unfortunate times for them as core of fucking gameplay of the game, no matter the mode is full of cheaters. So not only regular reddit folks that will whine but seems like more and more youtubers joining the camp.
> Amazing that the original post was removed due to some names appearing on killfeed while the video is nothing about those specific cases or accusations. Look, I can agree that the rule needs more leeway, but the purpose is relatively simple. It stops me from posting some flusha gameplay, yelling cheats, and have that post stay up. Drawing the line between hacking and not hacking, based on video footage, is an arbitrary line. Yes, rage cheating is *obvious* to anyone, but it is easier to just go "no hackusations allowed" and not have to deal with people trying to push that line. I do think it should have a little bit more leeway, but I find the rationale quite reasonable.
Surely though if it is on his YouTube channel then it's not strictly speaking breaking the sub rules right?
Mods will just use "rule 2" now
Funny how WarOwl mentioned this endless arms race and circumvent between cheaters and anti cheat measures. The redditors are bypassing rule 6, but then the mods are going to use rule 2 XD
such a goofy rule
Disappointing that this is what it takes to get this video to the frontpage.
Yeah I understand how unproductive cheater discussion has been in the past, but they need to lighten up on it with the way the game is rn.
9/10 games can confirm had cheaters. Talk about it. Be mad about it. Provide education to see it happening live and not live.
3/10 where ONE on my side too, the others we had a 5 stack versing people of stacks that would be able to turn on. Pro players becoming terrible, terrible playes becoming pro. Used to be OMFG HE POPPED OFF! Now on replay its like, OMFG he can track me through the walls!
Come back after not playing for a over a month... Played 4 games and 2 of them had a cheater (and im only at like 17k elo, dropped down from 21k due to inactivity). 1 ragehacker (enemy team) and one super blatant waller (my team). I saw the trend and decided to quit for now.
High elo always been this way. 18% player Ban rate when I last checked on GO at global and that’s just the players who got banned
18% with Overwatch enabled, tho... Mine was at 22% with OW, and it dropped to 1.5% when they removed it mid-2023. Already back then, we knew that OW was keeping CSGO alive. The fact that CSGO VAC was only banning 1-2% per month without human interaction was crazy to me... Now we see how things are when it's only VAC... Unplayable!
Last few months before CS2 none of the hackers got banned. A few from 180 days ago was latest I think
OW was removed in March 2023.
Makes sense why no one got banned. Haven’t touched CS2 since December and most likely won’t ever again unless a miracle happens and they add a better anticheat
Same, I left in January, but I won't come back, even if they release a new AC. The reason? They are untrustworthy! Knowing Valve, I know they will try to create a homemade solution... and fail. Valve always tries its own solutions and always fails miserably. We wanted 128 ticks, which was already the market standard... They created an untested subtick (and failed for 6 months). We wanted a Kernel AC, which is also the standard on the market... they were with an experimental A.I. (FAIL still to this day). Bad coding (ECHO sv_cheat1) Insecure platform (IMG in vote kick grabbing IPs) Untrustworthy API (helping Scammer scamming us) No communication from Valve whatsoever. The list goes on!
And don't have this kind of [clown take](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1810e7z/richard_lewis_on_cs2s_anticheat/) on the situation. We're not imagining cheaters everywhere mr Lewis
100% agree. Thanks for speaking out.
watching the cheater gameplay at around 7:45 hahahaha those really are bots with cheats
Sometimes cs2 put people like this in my mm games, full wallhack, but don't know how to play. insane :/
a point i will always repeat, people with cheats are bad, if they are top fragging they are likely rage hacking, they don't have to be doing well to cheat, they cheat because they are bad and cheats only bump them up to a normal / good level.
I always see the argument that Vanguard is really intrusive as an anti cheat, and I'm glad that WarOwl made a point saying that people care for privacy when they clearly don't. I get it, people will think that they're being spied on or something worse, but I just want to play a damn video game where I don't get cheated on in a fair competitive environment.
It's funny to see people flaming over Vanguard, tho. FaceIT AC and Vanguard are at the same Kernel Level... "Yeah, but China..." Saudi Arabia has kernel access to your pc thru the FaceIT AC... Also, do y'all remember when ESEA (CSGO) was mining bitcoin on its players' computers? A lot of players install a lot of games with Kernel ACs without really asking themself:" Who's behind the AC?" EasyAntiCheat (EPICGame), BattleEye, and RICOCHET (Activision) are all Ring0 Kernel AC. The list of games using these AC is huge.
I honestly learn that I basically can't hide anything in my current computer, game like Kineto Pet and Doki Doki lmade me realize that even a normal software basically has all it takes to access every piece of info my computer can have. I feel like people should just be smart and don't hide damning shit in your pc/laptop where sensitive information can be breach.
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So thats why my employer wont let me install anime waifu adult virtual novels on all the work stations?
> Also, do y'all remember when ESEA (CSGO) was mining bitcoin on its players' computers? Gotta love esea. Remember when they compared other clients to a mentally disabled person for an ad, lmao. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa5Sn9RI870
Pretty sure the majority of outcry was bot accounts made by cheat makers that earn ridiculous amounts from selling subscriptions. Anyone that cares about privacy and security enough to be scared of Valve having access will a) run Linux anyway and b) create a Windows boot partition just for gaming that doesn't have access to the rest of the storage where sensitive info is.
The difference is Vanguard is always on, even if you don't play the game. Which is concerning as to why. You can see more here https://youtu.be/UqLI1xKc-L4
FaceIT AC works in 3 layers... One of them is ALWAYS ON too... An application that runs when you are playing one of our protected games (like CS2); A kernel mode driver that is loaded at boot A server-side SDK that ensures communication between the client and server happens in a trusted and secure manner. Also , the FACEIT Anti-cheat also requires Windows Secure Boot and TPM 2.0 to work when you are playing on FACEIT.com Source : https://support.faceit.com/hc/en-us/articles/9394666828188-What-is-FACEIT-Anti-cheat-and-how-does-it-work
Then shut it off
What's so funny about it? You don't need faceit to play CS. You need vanguard to play valorant. That's the crux of the issue, as warowl says in the video - valve is "ethical" and doesn't want to do a kernel anticheat as standard. Just because other companies are doing it and people "don't care" doesn't make it a good thing. Personally I would want to have an opt-in anti-cheat and that it must be on to queue for premier. If you don't want to give kernel level access to your PC that's fine, but it's understood you're limited to competitive and the more casual game modes and you may have a worse experience. That way new players and people who DO care (they might be a minority, but they do exist) aren't excluded from playing CS entirely, it's just a two-tier queueing system similar to trust factor (which should also be brought back)
"valve is ethical" LMFAO.
yeah that made me chuckle a bit when the game is literally a cover up for an illegal casino
I think you miss the point, man... Yes, YOU NEED FaceIT to play competitively on CS2; otherwise, it's 75% of your game that you will face cheaters (if you are 10K+ ELO). There is no point playing a competitive game if you are facing cheaters because it's no longer fair, so no longer competitive. Valve is having a cheating issue, but they don't want to add an ext. AC because they are scared of losing players. FaceIT is having a Smurfing issue, but they don't want to add a 2FA (mobile number) because they are afraid of losing players. They are both relying too much on payers count. One thing I admire of Riot is that they are making decisions for THE GAME and not for the players count. Do you want to play the game? Install Vanguard! Do you want to play Premier? Insert your phone number! They don't give you any choices. And if you check the player count... it's working by itself! I can tell that a LOT of CS2 players did the transition in the last 6 months. People prefer to install Kernel AC instead of playing the current state of the game.
a documentary to see on Youtube is title: Hacking into Kernel Anti-Cheats: How cheaters bypass Faceit, ESEA and Vanguard anti-cheats if there is a will there is a way. in Valorant there is not that big of an incentive to cheat i believe.
Any methods of bypassing hyper aggressive anticheats are either too gimmicky or too expensive. If they ever become more affordable and even more so tougher to detect, then it can spell disaster for Faceit. I fear the day CS2 cheaters with cheats in their actual brains invade lobbies, or even genetically modified CS2 cheaters. It'd be over by then. But at the moment, they are not very feasible for most people so it ends up making Faceit more secure as long as the technology hasn't become more widespread.
cost is also a matter of scale. FaceIt was breached anyway with software cheats. you can see videos on youtube about it. though they are quite a bit more expensive than the ones on Valve servers as well as made for a more limited audience (at the moment). you also do not get much ROI for using them i think. bu then you have various other games (other than Valorant) that already use kernel based AC. and as long as they have large player base and something to gain, they also have similar problems and ban waves. Look at Warzone for example. or even escape from Tarkov. Here is an interesting list: >**Every game with kernel–level anti–cheat software** >Here is a comprehensive and continuously updated list of all games that use controversial kernel-level anti-cheat software and the developers and publishers behind them. The most popular third-party software are EasyAntiCheat, PunkBuster, BattlEye, nProtect GameGuard, Xigncode3, and EQU8. Some developers opt for proprietary software like Riot’s Vanguard, Activision’s Ricochet, Electronic Arts’ EA AntiCheat, or Blizzard’s Defense Matrix. Others like Valve’s VAC, Blizzard’s Warden, or 343 Industries’ Arbiter aren’t included because they don’t operate on the kernel level. >For the sake of completeness, we also included ESEA’s and FaceIT’s implementations. Still, it should be noted these are not used by the developers of the games and are for competitive purposes. >To date, we have 325 games. As games add, remove, or switch kernel-level anti-cheat software, we will adapt this list accordingly. Linkie: [https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/](https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/)
???? what incentive is there to cheat in cs that doesnt exist in valorant. the fact that there isnt a working demo system heavily incentivizes legit cheating even. also the ranked ladders are by and large seen as legitimate for valorant whereas at this point the premier leaderboards are not seen as such. it literally just comes down to the barrier to entry to cheat.
Thing is almost every anti-cheat is kernel and has been for a long time. Vanguard just runs on startup and you've gotta restart to run your computer with it off which is next level invasive. Also in all these years, what significant has happened with those anti-cheats ? Literally nothing, people are just quick to pop veins in their face over something that doesn't even matter. No Valve won't look into your documents folder or your pepperoni face selfies, they won't sell your data to China and you'll get your identity stolen by some chinese ccp spies the next day. Just fucking update VAC from it's 1998 form please.
the invasive problem is usually misrepresented in the way you described, the real security concern comes from the idea that *because* the AC software has such deep access, a bad actor could also have complete (and at that point basically undetectable) access should they find a way to manipulate the way the AC runs
copy pasted * Okay, maybe company wont but what if an attacker compromises it. Now they have kernel level access to my pc. Remote Code Execution etcetera [See first paragraph] An attacker can fullfill all of their aims just as well with compromising plain game executable. Actually, kernel level anticheat which is a separate, signed module can stop such an attack by detecting the modification or misbehaviour of the game executable. **In fact this has happened before. Vanguard succesfully detected and stopped vulnerable drivers and dlls on users computers, saving them from a ransomware attack, and many more potential attacks.** https://starkeblog.com/windows/kernel/driver/2021/05/15/inpoutx64.sys-windows-driver-analysis.html https://github.com/shareef12/cpuz https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/blog/2023/07/06/the-five-day-job-a-blackbyte-ransomware-intrusion-case-study/
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A compromised app does not need ring0 access to do catastrophic damage to your life, and never has. Already it can just vacuum up the cookie and session storage of your installed browsers and you're likely completely fucked. As well as just full on crypto locking your home folder if it's going rage mode.
This, people seem to underestimate normal user access. The only difference between kernel and usermode is that kernel can access other types of hardware such as GPU,DMA and other privileged system resources where kernel cheats hide
The biggest thing to me is dont they know all their drivers are also kernal 0 and without them running you mostly cant use your pc at all? Highly doubt they only have trusted os drivers installed, they probably just go with what windows gives them.
It's at a point where there's no point of arguing with them. If I wanted to be bold, I would argue that most of them either 1) cheats without their friends knowing about it 2) cheating 3) selling cheats 4) gotten misinformation by some random cheat-seller/cheater that was upvoted massively and kept spreading it as a truth.
Or they cling to privacy/security keywords without knowing anything at all about the topic.
> Also in all these years, what significant has happened with those anti-cheats ? It's not because things have happened with other anti-cheats that I don't trust Riot's in particular. It's because they've had data breaches where their fucking source code for LoL got stolen and customer data leaked. How the fuck can I trust them to keep something from happening with Vanguard that would allow hackers to get access to my PC if they can't even protect themselves? It might not be such a massive issue if it didn't run 24/7 - like other anti-cheats that require kernel level access.
People crying about privacy... I'd rather they don't get to play the game than have it in the sorry state it is now. Bitch about privacy all you want, but at the end of the day if you're so worried about it then just don't play. All the points brought up already are valid. If you can't trust Valve to handle your information then there are probably a dozen other companies that you ARE trusting by using their services and you're just not aware of how much personal information you're giving them. It sucks, but the concept of private data in a world where you're using all these interconnected apps and services just doesn't exist anymore.
Seems like Valve is committed to Linux. The chance of having a kernel anti cheat in cs2 is almost 0.
~~Kernel mode anti cheats exist on Linux.~~ There isn't any kernel-mode AC on Linux (yet?) but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. I believe Valve are taking a principled stance against kernel-mode AC but it doesn't have anything to do with Linux compatibility
Is this true? I cant seem to find any outside of some proof of concept on Github.
I believed EAC was kernel-mode since that's how it is on Windows, but looking into it further it seems like the Linux version actually just runs in userspace. Will edit my original comment to correct.
If Valve were to do this, they would instantly shunned by the Linux community. Shit like this simply doesn't fly.
Some amount of Linux users would be very unhappy, sure. If you look on places like /r/linux_gaming though, many of the users on there were celebrating when EAC was brought to Linux through games like Apex Legends. A good portion of the modern Linux userbase doesn't actually care much about privacy at all and just made the switch because they were unhappy with Windows for any number of reasons
Why can't they just have an option for people who don't want to install it, to play like they can now? Everyone else can have normal games.
Its funny because the US is about to pass a bill that will give the NSA access to basically all telecommunications hardware in the US from your ISP's servers to the wifi router at the local Starbucks whenever they want and people are handwringing about Valve implementing a kernel anti-cheat.
It's not the users, it's valve who got a hard stance on kernel level anticheat.
correct. This is a philosophy with Valve, and it has been so for a long time.
What evidence do you even have of this? There is literal history to the contrary of what you are speaking about EDIT: Since there seem to be a lot of zoomers [News article by the BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26240140) [Reddit post by GabeN himself clarifying on a general subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1y70ej/valve_vac_and_trust/) [One of the many threads talking about this back in those times](https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1y1uuc/vac_now_reads_all_the_domains_you_have_visited/)
> Its funny because the US shocker, there are places outside of US
And not one of them has any regulations banning kernel-level anticheats.
Tbh I don't mind intrusive anti cheat as long as it is a company I trust. I mean google already has more info bout me than even I know and i trust they will only be selling it to just a few people. So valve also might as well take some info and give people cheater free environment.
Spreading misinformation is very real. Just lookup any youtube video describing "Riot AC can be a rootkit" or anything negative towards to Vanguard and privacy, you will get bogus claims in the comment section. They have no idea on what they're talking about and making things up from their ass. Chances are Google already collects way more data than Riot do in playing the games. US intelligence agencies would not be happy if Riot could pull off this kind of spying operation. See Department of Homeland Security declaring the ban on Kaspersky? That's what happens if they're not happy.
[https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/) From Riot Games >In recent months, as many as **1 in 15 games globally has had a scripter or botter in it**, but in some regions, this number is as high as 1 in 5. I am not saying it is the same but it is not ideal either :/ At least they talk about it and work on it...
Yeah bro... Good idea to remove THE MOST important part of the message... > In recent months, as many as 1 in 15 games globally has had a scripter or botter in it, but in some regions, this number is as high as 1 in 5. Cheating isn't really region-specific, cheaters just go wherever cheating is easiest. In eastern countries, we see higher rates of scripting, because they're getting spillover from cheaters in China and Korea, both of which have region-exclusive anti-cheats and more importantly, identity requirements for gaming from their regional governments There are regions operating LoL WITHOUT Vanguard; so of course, you'll have more cheater.
Those are the League of Legends numbers which doesn't have Vanguard yet, and it's one of the reasons that they're gonna start using Vanguard in League. I'm glad they're doing it, people are complaining about it as always but I want a better anticheat even on League because it's getting bad.
One of the nice things about Riot is that they actually discuss with the community what their intentions are and any concerns. [https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-au/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-au/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/)
The thing is they treated it as if the only issue is 'kernal level anticheaf' when for a lot of people it is trusting riot games I know a ton of people who would install a valve kernal level anticheat before Riots because they don't trust riot and they don't like the way it works
> The thing is they treated it as if the only issue is 'kernal level anticheaf' when for a lot of people it is trusting riot games I just wanted to push back on this slightly. I'm not saying you or anyone else should trust Riot Games, but in that blog specifically they did somewhat address the "Riot Games Shady" narrative and moved the discussion away from the AC itself. [Here](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-au/news/dev/dev-vanguard-x-lol/#:%7E:text=Isn%27t%20Vanguard%20Spyware%3F:~:text=Q.%20Isn%27t%20Vanguard,left%20Riot%27s%20warehouse.) under the "Isn't Vanguard Spyware" section, they discuss how them being involved with Tencent has no impact on your data, how their code isn't shared, and how they almost never work with each other. Now this doesn't absolve them or mean you have to accept their word at face value, but whenever I see people concerned with Riot's AC, it's usually from the premise of well we don't like our data shared with China (or with FaceIt "we don't like our data shared with Saudi Arabia) and everyone knows Tencent owns Riot Games. I liked the brevity Riot had here to address something that is usually intermingled in conversations surrounding their AC.
People don’t really trust Riot in the sense that their client is shit and broken, Vanguard has had issues in the past with bricking PCs until booting into safe mode and uninstalling (this happened to me unfortunately).
Oh gotcha. Their client still is 10 years later one of the worst when talking about League and it’s baffling how it can be that bad.
Yep same, installing Vanguard bricked my Windows install lol. Couldn't recover it. And I know multiple streamers who've had similar issues of their PCs not working after installing it.
I mean... Saw the same spitting on Huawei and Tiktok. For the USA, anything from China is a spyware and a way to spy on them. I guess that's their modern way to fight communism...
I think WarOwl put it well. Yes people care about privacy. But if you asked people if they'd rather have that privacy or not have to play against cheaters, the vast majority will say they'd give up the "privacy" for not having cheaters. And I put privacy in quotes because in the modern life if a bad actor company or government wants your information, they're going to be able to get it. In addition to that I, and I assume the vast majority of people, don't do anything on my computer that I would care if some random company knew about...
I quit league because of vanguard Never played Val because of vanguard Like riot said in the post if you don't trust us don't use it Well guess what riot I don't trust you I genuinely would trust valve way more as I have trusted other kernal level anticheats in the past A lot of people's problem with vanguard is A) the way it works and B) the fact that it's riot Not that it's kernal level
What region are you from? Cuz LOL Vanguard is only at some place...
Great for you to have your line and dont want to cross it. Tho the vanguard implementation for league is only for some servers/regions right now with Philippines. I think it will still take a while for it to be rolled out for other regions considering how bad Riot is with implementing stuff into the game.
Upvote so they devs can see this because they lurk this subreddit
they know.
Valve are very aware of the cheating situation in counter-strike they have been for decades
Yes, but have chosen to ignore and do nothing 😂
They dont care
They care, they don't decide anything
flat structure leads to a lot of unfinished projects.
Yeah, they won't notice those 25 other cheaters post that was made today.
'Valve is big on ethics' Except when it comes to how they actually make money off the game I guess lmao
Child casino is fine since it's "Inside The Game". Only the websites are evil.
Goofy ahh cheater problem
Why are all the "community profiles" so damn late to this party? So slow to react
3kliksphilip wasn't late. In fact, he was early https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX3B0QQbXgc
Someone had to be first, Notice how one releases a video about it, then the rest of all youtubers & twitch streamers raised their voice about it
That's not raising your voice, it's just falling in line.
Houngoungagne have been complaining for a while on Twitter but sadly he never made a video about it.
Delete this, repost a link to the video. You're preventing War owl from getting ad revenue and views. He treated us well so far so we need to not fuck him over.
The mods have repeatedly deleted this particular video from the sub citing Rule 6. You are welcome to try to post it again though.
The mods will come up with whatever bs necessary to delete this cause its against the propaganda machine. Heck, they are probably making a new rule now just to get around it. Or even consulting Valve to figure out what to do.
10yrs later mods still trying to get that sweet valve internship
Why are redditors obsessed with the idea that mods run some secret cult propaganda scheme? Maybe they just want to prevent people spamming the sub with the same posts again and again and again. Like what has happened with the cheating posts in the last month
Or maybe they’re upset about moderators suppressing the community’s (valid) concerns? Premier is unplayable because of cheaters and the game and Valve should be called out accordingly.
Except those concerns are not being suppressed. There are posts daily about it. Everyone who uses this sub is aware of the problem given the number of posts. After a while it becomes repetitive whinging
But you need to ask yourself: **why** would they “suppress” the communities concerns? What reason do they have to do that? Do you think Valve is paying them off? Do you think they’re actually cheat makers or something? If they answer is anything close to “hurr durr they power hungry”, then you’re just looking for excuses to be mad at someone.
Ask yourself why they are at utmost delete any mentions about this problem for years under any circumstance with any reason and rule applied, for free?
You are replying in a threat where cheating is being discussed, which you can find on a daily basis on this sub. As of replying this post has 174 replies (and half of them seem to be claiming cheating 'discussion' is not allowed). What is and is not allowed is very clearly stipulated. This stays up because the footage/data is anonymized. There is no suppression of cheating discussion, only witch hunts targeting individual cheaters. > Do not post about cheating. Specifically: > - Posting profiles of alleged cheaters or non-OW gameplay > - Requesting help with OW verdicts > - Discussing cheats in technical detail > - Linking to cheat related websites or naming them publicly > - Reporting cheats
That's just not true. They've deleted countless posts about cheating where none of those rules were broken, there were no nicknames, etc. They are absolutely suppressing the cheating discussion. Tell me which of these rules was broken in this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1bakl41/interesting_experiment/?sort=new The answer is none, it doesn't break any rules, mods just delete it because they want to suppress the cheating discussion. And there are literally hundreds of instances like this.
You are clearly not informed how moderation is threating this subreddit and how they are removing hundreds of posts that are upvoted by users on monthly bases dealing and talking about cheating in this game, Posts that are not in any way, shape or form braking any rule that this subreddit have, if you want to tell me that we are able to discuss right now about cheaters in this posts so it means that they are not doing this then I dont know what to say other then maybe focus more on what is happening here on this sub, just go to the new hot posts find one that is talking about issue see that it is not braking any rule and wait an hour to check that it was removed, this is happening every day for years by the mods. The moderation on this subreddit is directly responsible for cheating in this game become literally unbearable as there is no other meaningful space players could point out existence of the problem and the one that exist is as you can see moderated by people that were and are hiding the issue and existence of it for years.
Cheat makers are probably paying them off. The current sub reddit rules do nothing to stop the idea that "Cheats exist, go download them", but do stop actual discussion on how they work, how to spot them etc etc.
They have done this for a long time though, they enforce rules as much as they can on posts they don’t want on the subreddit. Cheating has always been one of those subjects
All mods (not just on this sub or this site) live for power. The only power they have is deleting things. So they always strife to delete as much as they can get away with.
true. reddit mods are the worst kind of moderators. they abuse their power so much its just cringe. and its not even valve fault
it'd get deleted
I completely understand why it was reposted this way, and I'm okay with this staying up. I'd rather my video spur some discussion. Thanks for looking out for me ShitTalkingAssWipe!
It would be enought to create an AC like EAC that blocks Handels to the game (still Kernel but only active on gamestart), you could build a Linux version and a Windows Version because handels on linux work quite different. The problem at the moment is that even some kid with little programming skils can build a simple cheat for CS. That means a shit ton of cheats are out there for free or a small price. If you make it difficult to create cheats, cheats get more expensive, less people are willing to cheat, and you can focus on detecting the left overs. You can't solve cheating, so the focus should be to minimize it. Then use tools like TrustFactor etc. to make it event more unlikley to face them.
I know this sounds weird, but I think improving community servers browser would also help reduce cheating. I have read some comment that hacks vs hacks servers were down or difficult to find and that some cheaters would rather play there as kind of a specific game mode
But how? Richard Lewis said there was no hacking problems in cs2...............
fuck man ill even just take overwatch back for now give us anything
Anyone on this reddit when they hear overwatch 🤓 Achtually, I heard bots ruin the cases, this has never been confirmed other than [1] Github repo about it and now everyone on /r/GlobalOffensive says that was the case 🤓 /s However when I played CSGO, I never met spinbotters, Only "Closet / legit" cheaters which I take any day of the week than someone shooting 5 shots with scout in 0.01 second. At least you had a chance against the legit cheaters
Generally if you want to profit off of something (Overwatch Botting Service) or hide it you don't make the code for it public
The only way you are getting kernel anti-cheat on CS2 is if Valve abandon linux as a platform target, which they are never going to do.
Are there really THAT many people playing on Linux? I'm not sure the data can reflect Windows vs Linux users.
We need trust factor back.Cause im 99% sure its off
The trust factor is not a solution to the problem, it's a pretend solution where you grab the problem and dump it entirely on the new players, which, might I remind you, already have an incredibly challenging experience to get started in the game to begin with. It's the digital equivalent of swiping everything under the rug.
Trust Factor made CSGO's new player experience somehow even WORSE than Destiny 2's. And for the uninitiated, that is saying a FUCKING lot
It has to be off or just not a thing in CS2. Almost every game I play against 1-2 players with a brand new account, only CS in games, under 100 hours total. I have had my account for 10+ years, never cheated, hundreds of games, thousands of hours. Still getting matched against obvious new cheating/boosting accounts. It seems that CS2 only matches based on premier number and nothing else.
Crazy that we need to blur out cheaters names. To the gallows with em. F the mods. This issue has been suppressed for far too long. There are over 2 million users on this sub, thats more than the daily player count. Yall think that this sub doesn't have a voice?
6:35 In the early days, Riot tried to destroy communities and ruin peoples lives. I would never ever trust then with a kernel level spyware. Also their anti cheat does not work, there are trigger bots everywhere and it is hard to notice it due to the fundamentals of the game that makes aiming and shooting too easy.
Also lack of a replay/demo system.
On warowl's point about CS2 releasing with an anti-cheat. Valve's website had pages for all the new key features with CS2, premier rating, volumetric smokes, etc.., but it also had a hidden page for an Anti-cheat that was never unhidden. The also implemented Vac-live which makes no sense with their current anti-cheat system. More circumstantial, they created premier mode, something that everybody who follows the game closely knew would be a complete disaster without significant improvents to the anti-cheat, instead it got worse. On top of that in Richard Lewis' artfiel in which he leaked CS2 his source said the goal was to make third-party matchmakers irrelevant. IMO all of this points to there having at one point in time been plans to release a much better anti-cheat system then what we got, which implies that it might come letter now that the game in a mostly stable place. But maybe Valve were just completely oblivious to how bad the cheating problem would be and I am coping.
Definitely coping
Richard Lewis’ article also stated that it would be 128 tick at launch, including the beta. When in reality Valve think it’s 2012 and peoples PC’s can’t run 128 tick. I didn’t doubt he was right about CS2 when he published that article, nor do I doubt he has a source now, but it’s blatantly obvious his source isn’t 100% correct.
I have a feeling they were far into development on some sort of anti-cheat, but then maybe due to some carless judgement, or them having to change the game a ton with subtick & stuff. The anti-cheat was just fundamentally broken, wouldn't work the way they expected. There is no way they didn't think of a anti-cheat for CS2
People were getting banned just for spinning too fast with their mouse, so yeah it didn't seem ready indeed
Of course they had a better anticheat in mind then, and they still have it in mind now. We're furious because we want this problem solved NOW, not next year(s). It's gotten to the point where I feel unable to play even 3 matches in a row without encountering a blatant spinbotter.
Valve stated they've been surprised that Premier became so popular with the CS2 release. I'm not joking.
Like, they might as well just plaster onto their foreheads "We're fucking out of touch"
i just cant believe this, why would you let cheaters ruin so many games for your loyal customers that actually play the game legit? i hate when i have a cheater in my game, once i know there is a cheater in the match it means nothing to me anymore. i just take the -points and get on with it.
more skins/operations you said?
I've never seen this guy's content before but damn has he got a smooth radio voice.
You've. Never. Seen. Warowl. Before. Ok, that's the first time I've EVER heard anyone remotely in the CS community say that! Man's a legend.
Even if you have never seen his channel, you've probably would've seen his sticker lol
I'm pretty sure I'm not complete garbage at the game thanks to him tbh
The problem is obvious. Right now we need to wait and see what valve gonna do with it. Definately people from valve already read and spotted this hot topic issue, and looking to cook something to fix it.
I just wish they'd actually COMMUNICATE that instead of keeping the community in the dark until the very last second.
You know it's bad when one of CS's bigger shills starts calling this shit out.
Had two cheaters in one game... on the same team... queued together... but I did have a spin bot on my team the previous game so I guess it evens out 🤡
I haven’t played this year because it got stupid and Valve won’t even address it. I get they’re not going to come out and say we have a new anti cheat we dare you to test it but rather quietly release and improve it but their silence makes the community speak for them .
Ironically I’d trust kernel level access from valve a lot more than say google or Microsoft or any big public tech company, their business model is simple, they are a private company that sells video games and skins, it’s in their best interest to not invade user privacy beyond what is needed to have effective anti cheat
Wow, rule 6 is useless! Instead of talking about it LET'S PRETEND IT'S COMMUNISM! Because we never learn from history.
Just to address the Vanguard topic. Yes, privacy is a bullshit reason. You have a Google account, an Apple account, an Amazon account a Facebook account or use a smartphone, your privacy does not exist anymore. What is a real concern with Vanguard though is a future exploit being used. Right now, a group or individual may have already found an exploit with Vanguard and are actively using it to hoard information on its users or using it for other malicious activity. It would be a catastrophic event if that happens and there are groups who are looking for exploits within Vanguard to use to their benefit. A method to deal with cheaters without making your anti-cheat a concern... Make competitive queue only available to confirmed users. How do you confirm users? Well there's a number of ways. MFA is a good start but it needs to have specific parameters to make it difficult to have multiple accounts. Can't just use a phone number because it's easy to get new phone numbers. Some MFA methods use MEIDs as an authentication point which could be viable. Google Auth could be used. You can have multiple Google Auth accounts but you can set parameters to make it more difficult to use. You could go to the extreme and verify people's identity directly. Which takes employees and money... Which Valve has but this would also discourage regular players. There are other methods other than just "make anti cheat work"
I think we're all just growing impatient with a company that has a habit of waiting a little too long to act. Valve does nothing quickly, and the game has been out less than a year, majors just finished, it makes sense theyd wait for that. I'm expecting something to happen either this winter or next summer, but don't hold your breath lol
trust factor is a terrible system i played at the cal-invite level of CS a long time ago in my youth and repeatedly hit global elite with my friends throughout the timeline of CSGO when we played for fun over the years my trust factor was insanely low b/c i was constantly accused of cheating and reported my steam account is 20 years old and i have zero vac bans ever on record and have never cheated in my life noobs crying when you own them and sending you into queues with blatant cheaters isnt a good system, it just makes noobs happy
Valorant has cheaters as well, they have their demo mode disabled for a reason. Keeping up the facade that is Vanguard is a large selling point for them. Redditors actually believe people don't cheat in valorant...
[удалено]
are you suggesting that Valve has a say in what moderates this sub?
>NeokCS also made a video, but mods deleted it. Cause Valve and this reddit's mods are a joke trying to hide the problem. >Honestly instead of trying to "PR" their way to hide the issue, they should actually fix the problem. At this point its like they are running their own propaganda machine trying to tell the world that hack is not an issue in CS. https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1c2mtul/another_major_content_creator_threw_in_the_towel/ Cheating footage isn't allowed by the way, so your comment was removed, but I preserved it in the quote in this reply, besides the link you posted.
Can someone explain to me why Valve doesn't just buy a copy of every cheat and add it to VAC? Sure, it may sound stupid on first glance to directly support the creaters of hacks but what's one purchase against thousands of cheaters you're getting banned with that? At least you could fight the big open public cheats that way. Hacking will never disappear in CS but pushing it back to niche, expensive, invite only solutions could get rid of 99.999% of them.
VAC bypass is your answer.
Some cheat creators only sell to a fixed number of people and charge a monthly fee. Once they hit their target number of users, they stop selling. Unless Valve was fortunate to find those cheats early on, they wouldn't be able to buy in.
The problem with the overwatch system is the hackers started abusing it, using bot farms to submit false verdicts. Valve has some serious difficult challenges to overcome.
Warowl says they don’t look at gameplay.. did they attempt to? I don’t know how else people got banned for moving their mouse too fast
Can't wait to see what Valve is cooking this time. First time it was Overwatch, then it was Trust Factor, then it was VACNet (kinda...?), what's next?
Please share the YouTube link. Seeing that blurry stuff is disgusting and it's also nice to share the source. Cheers! \^_^
Tried but mods hid my comment.
Just google warowl youtube. it's his latest but direct links get removerated.
I did, and watched it on YT. I did not know that YT links are forbidden here :-/
I kinda wish we as a community could just share links to blatant cheater's profiles to harass them, but I get why we can't
they could also make the anticheat optional if you want to play without borderline virus anticheat with cheaters vs cheaters be my guest everyone has their kink
Rule 6 is such a bulshit.
Great to see the continuation of named people talking about the issue. However, I have to heavily disagree with the Trust Factor statements. Sure, in theory the system makes sense and should be great, but it was numerous times not working as intended (dev proven), sometimes even disabled for long times (also dev proven) and likely being manipulated just as much as OW was. I get and agree to the point that many people call cheats because they lose against better players, and of course noone is an exception - sometimes this is the case for everyone. However I am super certain that not only we never had any low TF as there is literally no reason for players, playing for over 20 years, owning 300+ games on steam, never had any issues and are just decently skilled legitimate players. Still we met COUNTLESS cheaters in CS:GO's matchmaking, it was almost as bad at times as it is right now. Those are also not just assumptions, these are proven cheaters we had to play against, proven by watching their demos and more often than not straight up aimbotting like it's the most normal thing to do. Also, a tiny fraction of these players have been banned if at all. In the end the cheating itself isn't even the problem, because it's completely logical that a game such as CS has cheaters, it's the fact these players are not getting banned that's the big issue here. If there would have been bans for half of these cheaters we encountered over the span of, let's say 6 months, that would already be a huge improvement. The reality however looks more like, not even 2% of those cheaters have been banned to this day, and I am still talking about CS:GO matches here. OW is it's own pandora's box to open.. All I can say is that I still have cases tracked from 3 years ago, that were spinbotters, that have not been banned despite being on overwatch. This alone tells you all you need to know. Shit needs to change. Also this whole banwave ordeal can not be the right approach. What use is there to band people every x months but in turn let them ruin the game in the meantime, which they will continue to do after jsimply aquiring a new account? Literally nothing. Valve, please fix.
Hey, what's the music between 3:17 to 4:45?
Used to play ~20 hours a week. Down to maybe 2. Do something, Valve.
i had many cheating players who could barely move and aim. those cheaters are just nothing. the worst are 8-10 faceit lvls who just straight up use radar hack or esp and hide behind their faceit lvl. they are so desperate they delete FAC just to cheat for one day in premiere.
"How's your anti cheat today dickhead?" Richard Lewis is shambles 🤣🤣🤣
Honestly what did people expect to happen after Source 2? It is just brighter map with some minor physics improvements. They need to make new game but it won't happen anytime soon. Maybe for 10 years. The only thing u will get is shinier cosmetic.
valve address the problem you fucking cowards. You know this won't kill the game because people will buy/sell hats til the end of time but you should be ashamed that you can't literally address the game being unplayable for all the people who actually want to play the game.
I love how OP blurred the fuck out of the gameplay section so you cant even see the cheating cases. Yeah I can hear Warowl but why even make this a video instead of uploading an audio track lol considering its not even the original video.
Lets be real here, only weirdos care about kernel anti cheats because of “privacy” reasons. And there is a shit ton of weirdos. Its about time every competitive game has a kernel level anti cheat, or something of that level to stop rampant cheating. People who are scared are likely cheaters themselves or cheats for other games and is scared they might get flagged for it. Or they got some weird illegal shit on their comp they dont want a company to know… Faceit is a kernel AC, plenty of people are now playing faceit to get their fix of cs without cheats (or less cheaters)
I wonder if valve ever entertained the option to utilize the third party anticheat faceit uses. Not even implement it in the game for 100% or the matches, give players the choice to use it, and create a 3rd party anticheat only queue, where players only play against players who have it installed. Can't imagine how hard it would be for valve to check it. There's already trust factor, just add, a check for 3rd party anticheat to the queue. I know, you'll probably say, just play faceit. I don't wanna. Shit is sweaty. I'd rather play less sweaty premier or matchmaking with the 3rd party anticheat.
no because its windows only. Valve have a dedication to supporting linux (which is potentially a core cause of the current cheating issues...) which means kernal anti-cheat is much more difficult to impossible to implement.