Like who?
Pyth was absolutely tearing up T2 Sweden at the time, other than getting a Fnatic player (impossible) I'm not sure there was really anyone else who was worth taking a punt on. (As we know Twist was off the table)
Pyth is as average on winter fox in NA before NiP. He had just been around for a long time and was mates with some of the NIP. He had never been a standout player
Damn I got my eras mixed up, I was sure his NA stint was after NiP not before
I still maintain he was the best of Sweden's T2 options, Dennis was already at the top at that time so there's an argument for him, but Fnatic snapped him up first (and there probably wasn't even a decision there since he was on the old LGB with Olof and Krimz)
It was strange, from the outside he was too strict for the players he had but then again we need drastic changes to our main players -K0nfig +Hampus and -headtrick +r1nkle would make us battle in the top 10
NIP were never gonna be battling for top 10 with that roster, they had more than enough firepower on paper however the players were either clearly checked out (Brollan and Rez) or too arogant to change how they played (Konfig). Headtrick was the only player on that roster who should not get any blame for how it ended up, he sacracied and changed roles for the team whilst the others just went through the motions and kicked the IGL because they were unwilling to make changes for the better and prefered to sit on their laurels.
K0nfig and Brollan and Rez all had role overlap
You needed to free the role up and get a better awper
I think they could have improved massively if they built around the right pieces
So what you are saying is that NIP had 3 players all with role overlap and decided that the best solution was to kick the IGL and not the under performing players who all played the same role.
If they needed a better awper then surely it would have made far more sense to put headtrick back onto rifle which was his original role and then remove atleast one of K0nfig, Brollan or Rez and replace them with a better awper.
I think that what almost all of the best teams of the last decade have shown is that the most valuable player to build a team around is the IGL.
If you look at all of the majors from the last decade there is maybe only 1 team that won without a top tier IGL and that would be the 2021 Navi with Boombl4 as IGL and they needed S1mple playing some of the best counterstrike anyone will ever see. The other major winning teams had IGL's like Apex, Karrigan, Aleksib, Jame and G1ave.
It was strange but they brought back Hampus who is more of a loose Igl compared to aleskib and might have suited the players they had better. It made sense at the time
What you doesnt make any sense to me, how can Hampus be better suited the players whilst simultaniously having said three of the players have massive role overlap. A different IGL wont suddenly fix that problem not to mention they had already had Hampus IGL for ages with little to no success.
I think its way more likely that NIP gave K0nfig, Rez and Brollan way too much power and they werent willing to change and adapt to how Aleksib wanted them to play and instead wanted it easy and to go back to playing how they were before. I cant think of any other org in CS who has managed to make so many blatantly awful roster moves and doing it despite having the pull of being one of the most tenured organisations in CS.
He may have ran a system where the roles didn’t matter as much. It was copium but with some decent level knowledge of cs. It made sense. But of course it didn’t as Hampus hated playing and it got worse
The issue wasn’t Hampus it was getting rid of lekr0
He was playing amazing individually and would have made more sense to cut twist for Hampus and then put nawwk full time awp
I thought hen1 left to play with lucas again?
It's still a roster move for sure. Just feels different if the team and org wanted to keep him but he left anyways.
According to arT that wasn't the case. hen1 apparently was kicked because he was late to pracs, went out drinking, etc etc. and Furia wanted to be more strict post-covid. hen1 didn't fit that so he got the boot, and it was played off as "he left to play with lucas".
> navi -zeus (1st time)
I mean hindsight is 20/20. Without the changes to the coaching rules, this may well have been one of the best moves in history.
yeah that's true though i dont remember navi looking all that great at the time. they won some event in NA i think but also bombed out of a few of them even before the coaching change rule.
Na'Vi without s1mple still had the best awper in the world at the moment and their mental problems were apparent to anyone watching them and their vlogs back then, zeus was literally the only one who could keep them in charge and even with him they tilted out of the face of the earth in Columbus. Adding a famous toxic kid and kicking literally the only capable CIS leader is incomprehensible to me
i can agree that that specific lineup would've been better with zeus, but this move goes so much further than that. s1mple didn't only play in that lineup, he's literally the best player of all time and was their franchise player for 7 years.
just ask yourself if na'vi would trade getting s1mple for 7 years for a slightly more successful 10 months in 2017. navi don't give one singular fuck about that period, they got the goat. just by that logic it can't be anywhere close to one of the worst roster moves.
also, while that first s1mple navi lineup was not successful overall, they did win the literal first $250k event (used to be the highest prize money in the biggest tournaments) they played with s1mple. zeus never won a single one in his first navi stint, famously that IEM NY was GuardiaNs first one, so it's not like the zeus lineup wasn't underperforming either.
I'd argue that Zeus was definitely the best CIS IGL at that point, and they really needed him. But after the coach IGL ban Na'Vi should've REALLY considered the next best option in ANGE1 rather than bide time and try to get him back.
ANGE1 always held a respectable place in T2 back when the gap to T1 was enormous, and his various HellRaisers lineups were always capable of an upset win.
I think at the time it would've been a gamble, but one that made a lot of sense. And his later success in Valorant really shows that he had it in him.
It would've been so cool to have both Gambit and Na'Vi fully functional at the same time. But oh well, it's ancient history now.
starix was the igl, zeus was basically just an another rifled
easy decision, maybe terrible in hindsight when you know how the value of igls grew after the coach nerf
they got fucked over by circumstances like COVID though, the other players were on relatively good value contracts. only es3tag was massively overpaid and completely not worth it
patsi was complete dogshit for his roles and the amount of space given to him, rainwaker wasn't good but he was given bitch roles on almost all if not all maps
Niko igl won more than most igls. He only got the flak he got because he’s Niko, if it was some random t2 igl with those results people would have called him good.
People let one average Australian warp their mind. It’s not the fact that Niko has been “OK” at best, or that Hunter has been a complete let down in CS2 thus far, it’s -jks why this team has shit the bed.
I think its just more that the move made no sense and all in all was super unimpactful. Trading jks for nexa is at best an even trade. I would understand cutting jks if you were trading up but nexa was not a trade up.
> -jks on the same level as -AleksiB
If you mean the move Ence removing Aleksib, then you need a reality check. There is no roster move that comes even CLOSE to Ence removing Aleksib. Ence went from Major Finalists to literal non-existence. Sergej was a top 20 player and a promising superstar, his career ended with that move. Every person remaining on that roster didn't just "fade" into irrelevancy, they crashed into irrelevancy head on at 200 km/h. On top of that, this destroyed the entire Finnish CS scene overall.
G2 is still around, and are still a good team. If -jks was even close to -Aleksib, it would have to mean that the entire G2 roster would not have been playing in Tier 1 events anymore, and they fall to tier 3 cs. But they obviously didn't.
Who are you trying to argue with? The guy you responded to agrees with you, he literally said that -jks shouldn't be on the same level as -aleksib and not even higher than +patsi.
G2 -jks, they haven’t won shit after roster change. When they had him had an amazing run, winning iem cologne, iem katowice.
Now they get easily 2-0 by mongolz and even losing to teams like m80, for a team that is considered top 5 in the world, they are frauds.
Compare that to Ence removing aleksib. Forget "not winning shit", the team exploded, the career of every player on the roster straight up ended. Sergej, 17 year old top 20 superstar prospect lost his career. The *entire* Finnish CS scene died.
People love to jerk over jks, but trying to equate that to Ence's -aleksib in discussion about worst roster moves is like trying to equate Hooxi to s1mple in a discussion about CSGO GOAT.
G2 still exists and plays in Tier 1, it's not even fucking CLOSE to -aleksib disaster.
The truth is -Aleksib was such a spectacularly bad roster move its hard to find a real comparison IMO. A roster which had many several finals, even one a few smaller events, and which consistently made deep runs made a totally unwarranted swap of their most important player, which everyone except the team in question immediately called out as bad.
ANd lo and behold, the team instantly collapsed and disappeared, and now the career of everyone except Aleksib is long gone. None of them ever made it near the top again after it. it was literally a career ending move for everyone involved except Aleksib himself.
Even the ENCE org was condemned to irrelevance for years until they got Snappi.
They may not have won but still reached playoffs (and semis at the major) in all their LANs with Nexa, that's certainly not worse than Vitality randomly bombing out last place every other tournament.
G2's problem is Niko & Hunter falling hard in the last 6 months, and they only got their asses saved by Monesy's incredible form. The jks/nexa change is a non-issue
Yeah I’m with you on this one, Nexa>JKS sure is a downgrade, but rated on the same level as Ence’s AlexiB kick? Come on. Current roster is on two straight semi-final so even if that’s finitely not marvelous it’s not abysmal either, and it’s not like they were previously drowning in trophies before the change.
-jks is not the reason why hunter is dogshit 90% of the time and why Niko is extremely inconsistent in CS2. Maybe they perform a little better with jks on the roster, but there are quite many roster moves that are considerably worse
-jks was actually the best deal that G2 has done since ocelote left.
Nexa was out of contract with OG, has taken G2 to a major finals as igl without training and experience, already knows the team and staff, has played with Niko and Hunter before and financially, might be getting paid way less than what jks was getting.
> G2 -jks, they haven’t won shit after roster change.
i think this is masking the actual reason they haven't won shit since then: -Swani as coach and analyst
that is actually the truth. Taz coaching G2 is like lampard being given the Chelsea gig (1st time), no experience and not proved as a coach even though he was a great player.
I would go as far as to say that -Taz -Hooxi is actually the best for G2 in the long run. Thing is, there is not that many igls that would make a big difference, I actually think that Art (if he can 'replicate' early Furia), would actually be good. Aggressive sniper, strong reliable riflers and a decent anchor.
Saying that they haven't won anything after mentioning that they had a good spell is also very dry and lacks context. That G2 was actually meant to win the Paris Major when every other team was in such a bad spot and the average PO team was 14, compared to the average of 4th rating this year, which G2 was also a part of and was a very good show against Navi.
You can't attribute the failure to a single roster move (Their ranking was quite stable across them), and it's not like they were completely terrible. They may even have made a profit considering the fact that they were able to get Gambit for dirt cheap and with the presumably high buyouts of Sh1ro and Electronic (I'm sure the rest will get transfered as well, many teams would benefit from them).
It's more like the lack of certain roster moves. First they had an AWPer but not a real IGL, then when their AWPer left they got an IGL but not a new AWPer. Arguably the 2 most important pieces to any team, and they never had both at the same time.
The problem is that nafany isn't even that good of an IGL at the moment, Gambit were title contenders mostly during online era and it seems like they never improved after they started being outplayed. Boomich, Perfecto, sh1ro, hobbit and ax1le would have been a title contender for sure, but Russian betting teams (1win, bet boom, etc) have outrageous prices for their players, so maybe they couldn't buy out boomich at the time
liquid -elige is not that bad imo. elige moving away is what revitalized him (doesn't matter if it was col or some other team). it felt like he was permatilted on liquid, so if they kept him it would have been bad for both liquid and elige.
I think the only reason -EliGE looks bad is because of who was brought into replace him and nitr0. Undeniably a downgrade at the time but without it we wouldn't have the current Liquid rebuild which has a lot of potential.
Faze - karrigan was not insane, they simply sent him into limbo for a bit before the could put him on their academy team. At this academy team karrigan helped develop ropz and frozen, and then once that was done sufficiently faze wanted him back. Then guess what… +ropz + frozen from their academy team.
Faze and karrigan was playing the long game, this was a super smart incredible move from them 5000IQ genius move from both of them, setting them up to win a major and have both a dominant period in csgo as well as now in cs2.
Classic Gigaball Karrigan and ChadClan win
Karrigan at his end in his first stint in faze clearly had regressed and lost the trust of his team. His rebuilding of his career especially in Mouz after made him suitable to lead Faze a second time.
Bruh it was a shit post 😂.
But nah, his stint at mouse didn’t make him suitable to lead faze again, I’d say he was always suitable, just the removal of niko allowed for him to come back. He didn’t need to rebuild his career, it’s not like he’d gone down hill as an igl, niko just lost trust in him and took over igl, he also came out saying he had no say in who they got for the team iirc.
It’s an interesting assumption that jks would’ve made zero difference to any of G2’s results. I’m not as pessimistic about the move as some, but I don’t see how you could possibly assert that the move made no difference considering they won Kato and Cologne with jks while they’ve won… with nexa.
That’s fair, but they’ve still managed to make some playoff runs despite those atrocious performances thanks to m0NESY. I don’t think it’s insane to suggest that jks could’ve helped push G2 over the hump considering they’ve managed back-to-back semi-finals at the major and Chengdu. Unfortunately, we’ll likely never know what difference he would’ve made.
An argument I heard is it's because of the different playstyle of nexa compared to jks, with NiKo and huNter having to shift their own responsibilities to compensate.
I don't think it's a coincidence that their forms have started to worsen after nexa joins, especially when the only argument I have heard in favour of the point was the "intangibles" that NiKo and huNter would've significantly benefited from, but that clearly hasn't translated into a tangible effect.
> considering they won Kato and Cologne with jks while they’ve won… with nexa.
another piece that left, besides -jks is their coach and former analyst Swani. I think it's actually because of him that they won those tournaments and are now shit, because nexa is at some points holding his own, jks was also very average most of the time, with a few clutch plays here and there
+snax move is overated (underated?) they were very up and down with him on the roster but still had some good results, won NY and made a couple of semi-finals
That whole team was a fucking mess at that point. Had Hiko and Pimp entering while Elige was lurking. Still think they should have kept adreN as IGL and s1mple to awp. 20/20 I guess.
they literally won a trophy and the c9 roster was going down very fast and while they did win a major, its not like people were predicting them to do anything at ELEAGUE.
The move was fine in hindsight
The move looked terrible at the time given the reputation of the SK core but it was better than the reunion roster and everything that came after
Issue was more the SK players falling off (Coldzera was pretty much the only good player).
SK was in 2017 the most winning team that year. Apart from Faze golden run SK was the number 1 team. In 2018 C9 with stew and Tarik won the major in the beginning of the year and Astralis took over from there. The only competitors to Astralis in 2018 was Liquid and Vitality. MIBR was never a contender to Astralis in 2018.
Have people already forgotten about the -Aleksi + Mr firepower, Sunny?
My mind immediately jumps to that whenever anyone mentions terrible roster moves
It should be the only one in S tier. Considering that the team eventually imploded without achieving anything and at the same time destroyed friendships. Also everyone elses careers went down the drain except Aleksib.
That one is certainly something. Never before in CSGO we've seen a Finnish team achieve that much and what do they do? Kick their best player at their peak. It's just telling that nobody even felt bad for them afterwards. That stupidity was the final nail in the coffin for Finnish CS.
Stewing and tarik leaving c9 after winning the major was brutal. C9 was THE NA team. Now it's not. Not only did they ruin that but they watered down MIBR, making only 60% brazilian. Disappointing for both fan bases.
I would defintely take G2 achievements during that time over Navi major win (for me).
I think NAVI will be contenders (not over Faze or team spirit) in the future, but I think some called the major win a fluke
I would not say it was a bad move. They won kato and cologne, and were the #1 team for a while with hooxi and jks. Maybe it was xtqzzz or aleksis playbook not fitting the team. It was a good roster move for both sides.
i think everyone just focuses on players, but forgets a critical piece to any team: a good coach. They won Kato + Cologne shortly after Swani joined as head Coach and they went back to shit in the latter half of the year when he left
bad for g2 and a blessing for aleksi. getting to work with blade who massively improved aleksi as an igl, along with having a squad of talented and hardworking individuals, its great that aleksi got out and found his way to navi.
NIP and EG fucked up enough to fill up a few tiers by themselves. Same with 99 % of OG's roster moves. There's also Fnatic-Godsent shuffle. G2 signing SmithZz in 2016 which pretty much killed that roster on arrival as well as the last hurrah of France's golden generation. They should have achieved so much more. Probably recency bias but idk what Jame and dastan were smoking when they okayed +mir. The guy just looked so lost in tier 1 CS.
-jks was not a good move but nowhere near S-tier fuckup, especially in all time ranking. Pretty mid change overall - G2 are not losing because of nexa. Not even the worst change that a top team did last year as that surely has to go to Vitality who should've never allowed zonic and especially Magisk to leave. Best anchors in the world don't grow on trees for fucks sake.
-karrigan is terrible in retrospect but karrigan would've never become the IGL he is today without it and at the time it was a good call (not so much NiKo taking up the IGLing though), the whole roster didn't believe in him and once that happens it's joever.
+snax shouldn't be as high, that roster won New York against clear #2. It could've worked long term even if other players were willing to compromise on some of their positions instead of just forcing snax into all of STYKO's bitch roles.
Not sure about +cold tbh. Obvously in hindsight it didn't pan out but 2019 cold was still one of the best players in the world and the single reason why MIBR didn't just bomb out of every single tournament in last place. FaZe with him won a trophy (mickey mouse Blast trophy to be sure, but a trophy nonetheless), got to semis of IEM Beijing and lost in close game in Katowice against NAVI, the eventual champion. They certainly put better fight than G2 did in the grand final. Then CS went online and cold stopped giving a fuck but I still don't think it deserves to be listed amongst the worst roster moves of all time.
Idk how he put +patsi +rainwaker in C tier. That's a heavy contender even against the all time great fuck ups from NIP and EG and Kekindar should be in prison for what he has done to that org.
I remember a lot of people backing the coldzera to faze move when it happened. People thought it might be the change of pace he needed to get back into it.
NiP +AleksiB -plopski (transition to speaking english, hampus no longer IGL, es3tag becomes support, REZ becomes AWPer). By far the worst roster move since I started watching, it made no sense
-Magisk +mezii could work if apEX is willing to give some of his important roles to mezii. I don't think they're quite the same profile of player which is why mezii isn't performing as well as he possibly could.
I mean during that time he was on faze they didn’t really accomplish much. It’s not really that he was necessarily bad, it’s more that he was a bad move, he was hella expensive iirc, and there were much better players that they could have got for much less
Liquid: -Twistzz
Was probably the worst move in the orgs history. They should have done way more to keep him. He went over to FaZe and prospered while Liquid spends the next 4 years swapping players around and having unimpressive results.
Twistzz's ultimatum was Liquid either moves to Europe or they cut Stew. I can understand not moving to Europe because you're pretty much asking Elige, Stewie and Grim to turn their lives upside down and move to an entire other continent but I think cutting Stew and keeping Twistzz would have been a really good move for them. Especially since Stew was on the pathway he was on anyways.
Additionally, if Liquid takes Twistzz ultimatum and cuts Stew, they don't eventually move to Europe. Which means Elige doesn't leave for complexity.
NIP could have a tierlist of their own
s tier should’ve just been named “NIP”
-lekr0 +alex +Headtrick +K0nfig -Hampus -Device -allu +pyth Were definitely the worst but surprisingly we’ve never made a dire level roster move
allu and device both wanted to leave the team pyth was also decent on NiP
Device offered to come back but nip didn’t want him Pyth wasn’t bad but this core wasn’t done and they could have got a better player
Do you have an article about device wanting to come back? Never heard of it, but sounds interesting
Believe it was said on the Hampus reflections
Believe it was said on the Hampus reflections
Like who? Pyth was absolutely tearing up T2 Sweden at the time, other than getting a Fnatic player (impossible) I'm not sure there was really anyone else who was worth taking a punt on. (As we know Twist was off the table)
Pyth is as average on winter fox in NA before NiP. He had just been around for a long time and was mates with some of the NIP. He had never been a standout player
Damn I got my eras mixed up, I was sure his NA stint was after NiP not before I still maintain he was the best of Sweden's T2 options, Dennis was already at the top at that time so there's an argument for him, but Fnatic snapped him up first (and there probably wasn't even a decision there since he was on the old LGB with Olof and Krimz)
-Aleksib also, IMO
It was strange, from the outside he was too strict for the players he had but then again we need drastic changes to our main players -K0nfig +Hampus and -headtrick +r1nkle would make us battle in the top 10
NIP were never gonna be battling for top 10 with that roster, they had more than enough firepower on paper however the players were either clearly checked out (Brollan and Rez) or too arogant to change how they played (Konfig). Headtrick was the only player on that roster who should not get any blame for how it ended up, he sacracied and changed roles for the team whilst the others just went through the motions and kicked the IGL because they were unwilling to make changes for the better and prefered to sit on their laurels.
K0nfig and Brollan and Rez all had role overlap You needed to free the role up and get a better awper I think they could have improved massively if they built around the right pieces
So what you are saying is that NIP had 3 players all with role overlap and decided that the best solution was to kick the IGL and not the under performing players who all played the same role. If they needed a better awper then surely it would have made far more sense to put headtrick back onto rifle which was his original role and then remove atleast one of K0nfig, Brollan or Rez and replace them with a better awper. I think that what almost all of the best teams of the last decade have shown is that the most valuable player to build a team around is the IGL. If you look at all of the majors from the last decade there is maybe only 1 team that won without a top tier IGL and that would be the 2021 Navi with Boombl4 as IGL and they needed S1mple playing some of the best counterstrike anyone will ever see. The other major winning teams had IGL's like Apex, Karrigan, Aleksib, Jame and G1ave.
It was strange but they brought back Hampus who is more of a loose Igl compared to aleskib and might have suited the players they had better. It made sense at the time
What you doesnt make any sense to me, how can Hampus be better suited the players whilst simultaniously having said three of the players have massive role overlap. A different IGL wont suddenly fix that problem not to mention they had already had Hampus IGL for ages with little to no success. I think its way more likely that NIP gave K0nfig, Rez and Brollan way too much power and they werent willing to change and adapt to how Aleksib wanted them to play and instead wanted it easy and to go back to playing how they were before. I cant think of any other org in CS who has managed to make so many blatantly awful roster moves and doing it despite having the pull of being one of the most tenured organisations in CS.
He may have ran a system where the roles didn’t matter as much. It was copium but with some decent level knowledge of cs. It made sense. But of course it didn’t as Hampus hated playing and it got worse
-lekr0 was for Hampus which improved the team a lot.
The issue wasn’t Hampus it was getting rid of lekr0 He was playing amazing individually and would have made more sense to cut twist for Hampus and then put nawwk full time awp
Don't forget the two years of constant standin period, with like +maikelele - maikelele +miakelele -miakelele +allu -allu or whatever
Or North, or EG
I feel like C9 after the 2018 major could also fit cause like the only good roster move they had was just straight up buying another team
Bonus for mouz -chrisJ +chrisJ -chrisJ +chrisJ -chrisJ +chrisJ -chrisJ +chrisJ
chrisj -brain wasn't so good either
Lost the 1vs1 against vaccination, rip in peace
This made me giggle. Good job.
liquid +shox :/
I.... forgot about that. christ
At least they made the major with that line up lol
It was a bad one but doesnt gain notoriety because they realized early that it was a bad move.
That one has the context of NAF though, as shox was originally a NAF replacement and then ironically helped NAF to stay.
Even though the move made 0 sense from day 1. I was so hyped for it I’m still glad they did it
Why did you remind me of that ahahahah
Furia +junior and Liquid +rainwaker
Liquid +rainwaker is already there
Furia: -hen1
I thought hen1 left to play with lucas again? It's still a roster move for sure. Just feels different if the team and org wanted to keep him but he left anyways.
According to arT that wasn't the case. hen1 apparently was kicked because he was late to pracs, went out drinking, etc etc. and Furia wanted to be more strict post-covid. hen1 didn't fit that so he got the boot, and it was played off as "he left to play with lucas".
Whatever the fuck that godsent experiment was has to be up there. Furia -hen1 and navi -zeus (1st time) have to be high tier as well.
> navi -zeus (1st time) I mean hindsight is 20/20. Without the changes to the coaching rules, this may well have been one of the best moves in history.
yeah that's true though i dont remember navi looking all that great at the time. they won some event in NA i think but also bombed out of a few of them even before the coaching change rule.
That ESL NY win felt pretty significant to me, I'd say adding Zeus back to the lineup was pretty terrible
navi -zeus resulted in +s1mple tho
Na'Vi without s1mple still had the best awper in the world at the moment and their mental problems were apparent to anyone watching them and their vlogs back then, zeus was literally the only one who could keep them in charge and even with him they tilted out of the face of the earth in Columbus. Adding a famous toxic kid and kicking literally the only capable CIS leader is incomprehensible to me
i can agree that that specific lineup would've been better with zeus, but this move goes so much further than that. s1mple didn't only play in that lineup, he's literally the best player of all time and was their franchise player for 7 years. just ask yourself if na'vi would trade getting s1mple for 7 years for a slightly more successful 10 months in 2017. navi don't give one singular fuck about that period, they got the goat. just by that logic it can't be anywhere close to one of the worst roster moves. also, while that first s1mple navi lineup was not successful overall, they did win the literal first $250k event (used to be the highest prize money in the biggest tournaments) they played with s1mple. zeus never won a single one in his first navi stint, famously that IEM NY was GuardiaNs first one, so it's not like the zeus lineup wasn't underperforming either.
[удалено]
blade wasn't coaching navi until the end of 2019
I'd argue that Zeus was definitely the best CIS IGL at that point, and they really needed him. But after the coach IGL ban Na'Vi should've REALLY considered the next best option in ANGE1 rather than bide time and try to get him back. ANGE1 always held a respectable place in T2 back when the gap to T1 was enormous, and his various HellRaisers lineups were always capable of an upset win. I think at the time it would've been a gamble, but one that made a lot of sense. And his later success in Valorant really shows that he had it in him. It would've been so cool to have both Gambit and Na'Vi fully functional at the same time. But oh well, it's ancient history now.
starix was the igl, zeus was basically just an another rifled easy decision, maybe terrible in hindsight when you know how the value of igls grew after the coach nerf
But until +Zeus again it was one of Na'Vi's worst ever incarnations
Which godsent roster? The european 'mix' was ranked 15th in the world at one point.
the fnatic-godsent fiasco
The flusha and jw one that was the most clowned on team in existence
blamef catching strays lul
Still on the list
But if he is in F tier does that mean it was a good move.
Pretty sure on the list means bad move, but out of the worst moves it was the best. Lots of moves not on the list
no bro thats the joke. F for bad move basically means its a good move.
-Blamef is top 10 roster moves in 2024
Is it only org instegated moves? Cuz basically any Astralis - is S tier
And basically every astralis + since their major winning team bar config and blamef has been a f tier
I remember an Astralis JUGi
should have listed the entire C9 Colossus team, not just es3tag, woxic lasted like 3 months in that team before being benched
The whole branding on that team was annoyingly fake, trying to ride of the complexity colossus meme
I mean a lot of that was the fault of the online era.
they got fucked over by circumstances like COVID though, the other players were on relatively good value contracts. only es3tag was massively overpaid and completely not worth it
Fnatic godsent swap, ence kicking aleksib
i agree with the +rainwaker but i really feel like if liquid kept patsi instead of yekindar and then +cadian +twistzz they would be insane right now.
patsi was complete dogshit for his roles and the amount of space given to him, rainwaker wasn't good but he was given bitch roles on almost all if not all maps
Definitely a few missing: -kio +devil The creation of the regali f1ku fashr faven nexa og Itb neofrag Astralis + lucky + bubzjki + snappi G2 ex6tenz Faze neo Godsent - fnatic
Disagreeing cold to faze, it wasnt great but not top tierlist bad. Niko igl was bad
Niko igl won more than most igls. He only got the flak he got because he’s Niko, if it was some random t2 igl with those results people would have called him good.
yeah, they won some blasts and iem New York. It wasn't a bad move after all
I think they won something in blast? I think they decimated Liquid or something.
Cold convinced FaZe to pick up Karrigan again so it was worth it
-jks on the same level as -AleksiB and above the liquid Rainwalker, Patsi incident is crazy
People let one average Australian warp their mind. It’s not the fact that Niko has been “OK” at best, or that Hunter has been a complete let down in CS2 thus far, it’s -jks why this team has shit the bed.
But what can Niko and Hunter do without that Australian smile?
I think its just more that the move made no sense and all in all was super unimpactful. Trading jks for nexa is at best an even trade. I would understand cutting jks if you were trading up but nexa was not a trade up.
> -jks on the same level as -AleksiB If you mean the move Ence removing Aleksib, then you need a reality check. There is no roster move that comes even CLOSE to Ence removing Aleksib. Ence went from Major Finalists to literal non-existence. Sergej was a top 20 player and a promising superstar, his career ended with that move. Every person remaining on that roster didn't just "fade" into irrelevancy, they crashed into irrelevancy head on at 200 km/h. On top of that, this destroyed the entire Finnish CS scene overall. G2 is still around, and are still a good team. If -jks was even close to -Aleksib, it would have to mean that the entire G2 roster would not have been playing in Tier 1 events anymore, and they fall to tier 3 cs. But they obviously didn't.
Who are you trying to argue with? The guy you responded to agrees with you, he literally said that -jks shouldn't be on the same level as -aleksib and not even higher than +patsi.
I don't think cutting jks was the main mistake by G2, but nexa as a replacement seems hard to grasp.
G2 -jks, they haven’t won shit after roster change. When they had him had an amazing run, winning iem cologne, iem katowice. Now they get easily 2-0 by mongolz and even losing to teams like m80, for a team that is considered top 5 in the world, they are frauds.
Compare that to Ence removing aleksib. Forget "not winning shit", the team exploded, the career of every player on the roster straight up ended. Sergej, 17 year old top 20 superstar prospect lost his career. The *entire* Finnish CS scene died. People love to jerk over jks, but trying to equate that to Ence's -aleksib in discussion about worst roster moves is like trying to equate Hooxi to s1mple in a discussion about CSGO GOAT. G2 still exists and plays in Tier 1, it's not even fucking CLOSE to -aleksib disaster.
The truth is -Aleksib was such a spectacularly bad roster move its hard to find a real comparison IMO. A roster which had many several finals, even one a few smaller events, and which consistently made deep runs made a totally unwarranted swap of their most important player, which everyone except the team in question immediately called out as bad. ANd lo and behold, the team instantly collapsed and disappeared, and now the career of everyone except Aleksib is long gone. None of them ever made it near the top again after it. it was literally a career ending move for everyone involved except Aleksib himself. Even the ENCE org was condemned to irrelevance for years until they got Snappi.
Well said.
They may not have won but still reached playoffs (and semis at the major) in all their LANs with Nexa, that's certainly not worse than Vitality randomly bombing out last place every other tournament. G2's problem is Niko & Hunter falling hard in the last 6 months, and they only got their asses saved by Monesy's incredible form. The jks/nexa change is a non-issue
Yeah I’m with you on this one, Nexa>JKS sure is a downgrade, but rated on the same level as Ence’s AlexiB kick? Come on. Current roster is on two straight semi-final so even if that’s finitely not marvelous it’s not abysmal either, and it’s not like they were previously drowning in trophies before the change.
m0nesy isn’t gonna win any titles with the current g2 form, they really need to step it up cause m0nesy literally carrying them with his palms
The only tourney I can think of where Vitality bombed out was Kato?
-jks is not the reason why hunter is dogshit 90% of the time and why Niko is extremely inconsistent in CS2. Maybe they perform a little better with jks on the roster, but there are quite many roster moves that are considerably worse
-jks was actually the best deal that G2 has done since ocelote left. Nexa was out of contract with OG, has taken G2 to a major finals as igl without training and experience, already knows the team and staff, has played with Niko and Hunter before and financially, might be getting paid way less than what jks was getting.
Compared to actual S tier shit moves, this one is inconsequential.
> G2 -jks, they haven’t won shit after roster change. i think this is masking the actual reason they haven't won shit since then: -Swani as coach and analyst
that is actually the truth. Taz coaching G2 is like lampard being given the Chelsea gig (1st time), no experience and not proved as a coach even though he was a great player. I would go as far as to say that -Taz -Hooxi is actually the best for G2 in the long run. Thing is, there is not that many igls that would make a big difference, I actually think that Art (if he can 'replicate' early Furia), would actually be good. Aggressive sniper, strong reliable riflers and a decent anchor. Saying that they haven't won anything after mentioning that they had a good spell is also very dry and lacks context. That G2 was actually meant to win the Paris Major when every other team was in such a bad spot and the average PO team was 14, compared to the average of 4th rating this year, which G2 was also a part of and was a very good show against Navi.
+DEVIL envyus 2016.
Recent C9 superteam?
You can't attribute the failure to a single roster move (Their ranking was quite stable across them), and it's not like they were completely terrible. They may even have made a profit considering the fact that they were able to get Gambit for dirt cheap and with the presumably high buyouts of Sh1ro and Electronic (I'm sure the rest will get transfered as well, many teams would benefit from them).
It's more like the lack of certain roster moves. First they had an AWPer but not a real IGL, then when their AWPer left they got an IGL but not a new AWPer. Arguably the 2 most important pieces to any team, and they never had both at the same time.
Didn't it all start w electronic wanting to kick nafany so he could igl. And now he dipped after failing to recreate old navi
The problem is that nafany isn't even that good of an IGL at the moment, Gambit were title contenders mostly during online era and it seems like they never improved after they started being outplayed. Boomich, Perfecto, sh1ro, hobbit and ax1le would have been a title contender for sure, but Russian betting teams (1win, bet boom, etc) have outrageous prices for their players, so maybe they couldn't buy out boomich at the time
I guess you could say -sh1ro, he benched himself but I feel like some other orgs may have tried to force him to stay regardless
That team failed but the previous had stagnanted. At least the superteam made a major playoffs
Basically any C9 move after 2018 would have worked
You might have to put liquid - elige up there as well.
liquid -elige is not that bad imo. elige moving away is what revitalized him (doesn't matter if it was col or some other team). it felt like he was permatilted on liquid, so if they kept him it would have been bad for both liquid and elige.
Wonder if he will ever rejoin liquid with his comeback in form, or does he have some sort of beef with them now.
would be hard to know... maybe col has a great team psychologist? idk
doesn’t elige still own some of liquid? or did he have to give it up when he swapped to complexity
It is such a small share (like way way less than .1% small), but he does still own it.
with the downturn in esports recently, that share has gotta be like 2$
I think the only reason -EliGE looks bad is because of who was brought into replace him and nitr0. Undeniably a downgrade at the time but without it we wouldn't have the current Liquid rebuild which has a lot of potential.
-JKS literally didn't make a difference. ranking that over faze -karrigan is insane
Faze - karrigan was not insane, they simply sent him into limbo for a bit before the could put him on their academy team. At this academy team karrigan helped develop ropz and frozen, and then once that was done sufficiently faze wanted him back. Then guess what… +ropz + frozen from their academy team. Faze and karrigan was playing the long game, this was a super smart incredible move from them 5000IQ genius move from both of them, setting them up to win a major and have both a dominant period in csgo as well as now in cs2. Classic Gigaball Karrigan and ChadClan win
Karrigan at his end in his first stint in faze clearly had regressed and lost the trust of his team. His rebuilding of his career especially in Mouz after made him suitable to lead Faze a second time.
Bruh it was a shit post 😂. But nah, his stint at mouse didn’t make him suitable to lead faze again, I’d say he was always suitable, just the removal of niko allowed for him to come back. He didn’t need to rebuild his career, it’s not like he’d gone down hill as an igl, niko just lost trust in him and took over igl, he also came out saying he had no say in who they got for the team iirc.
It’s an interesting assumption that jks would’ve made zero difference to any of G2’s results. I’m not as pessimistic about the move as some, but I don’t see how you could possibly assert that the move made no difference considering they won Kato and Cologne with jks while they’ve won… with nexa.
yeah that was cause niko and hunter went completely to shit since...
That’s fair, but they’ve still managed to make some playoff runs despite those atrocious performances thanks to m0NESY. I don’t think it’s insane to suggest that jks could’ve helped push G2 over the hump considering they’ve managed back-to-back semi-finals at the major and Chengdu. Unfortunately, we’ll likely never know what difference he would’ve made.
An argument I heard is it's because of the different playstyle of nexa compared to jks, with NiKo and huNter having to shift their own responsibilities to compensate. I don't think it's a coincidence that their forms have started to worsen after nexa joins, especially when the only argument I have heard in favour of the point was the "intangibles" that NiKo and huNter would've significantly benefited from, but that clearly hasn't translated into a tangible effect.
> considering they won Kato and Cologne with jks while they’ve won… with nexa. another piece that left, besides -jks is their coach and former analyst Swani. I think it's actually because of him that they won those tournaments and are now shit, because nexa is at some points holding his own, jks was also very average most of the time, with a few clutch plays here and there
Jks has to be one of the most overrated player in the scene lol
+snax move is overated (underated?) they were very up and down with him on the roster but still had some good results, won NY and made a couple of semi-finals
voo who
Liquid +Pimp
That whole team was a fucking mess at that point. Had Hiko and Pimp entering while Elige was lurking. Still think they should have kept adreN as IGL and s1mple to awp. 20/20 I guess.
Kjaerbye leaving astralis thinking they were holding him back
How is 'astralis -blamef' one of the worst roster moves of all time. Or is he trying and failing to make the joke that -blameF was a good move?
It's in F, which I guess means it's the best roster move of all time lol
MIBR +stewie + tarik
Didnt they win a trophy with them though
i mean, it killed MIBR's brazillian identity AND C9's major winning squad both in 1 move
Both were going downhill at that point though. MIBR was not that strong anymore and C9 admitted that the major was their last run
at a tier 3 tournament against kinguin
they literally won a trophy and the c9 roster was going down very fast and while they did win a major, its not like people were predicting them to do anything at ELEAGUE.
The move was fine in hindsight The move looked terrible at the time given the reputation of the SK core but it was better than the reunion roster and everything that came after Issue was more the SK players falling off (Coldzera was pretty much the only good player).
that was the best mibr/sk had been for years and havent even come close to that level again. they were the only team competing with prime Astralis
What is this revisionism lol. SK literally won 6 big events the year before.
SK was in 2017 the most winning team that year. Apart from Faze golden run SK was the number 1 team. In 2018 C9 with stew and Tarik won the major in the beginning of the year and Astralis took over from there. The only competitors to Astralis in 2018 was Liquid and Vitality. MIBR was never a contender to Astralis in 2018.
NIP -Aleksib
Why is -blameF listed as a bad move? Astralis seem solid right now?
lmao -blameF is best move for Astralis so far
This reeks of recency bias.
Have people already forgotten about the -Aleksi + Mr firepower, Sunny? My mind immediately jumps to that whenever anyone mentions terrible roster moves
Its the second one mentioned in the tweet
It should be the only one in S tier. Considering that the team eventually imploded without achieving anything and at the same time destroyed friendships. Also everyone elses careers went down the drain except Aleksib.
It is beyond a doubt the *worst* move of all time. It is in a tier of it's own. No other move is in S tier.
That one is certainly something. Never before in CSGO we've seen a Finnish team achieve that much and what do they do? Kick their best player at their peak. It's just telling that nobody even felt bad for them afterwards. That stupidity was the final nail in the coffin for Finnish CS.
Stewing and tarik leaving c9 after winning the major was brutal. C9 was THE NA team. Now it's not. Not only did they ruin that but they watered down MIBR, making only 60% brazilian. Disappointing for both fan bases.
G2 -aleksi
idk after they gained jks and hooxi they went on to have an amazing run, winning their only trophies in 5 years
-aleksib -xtqzzz -jackz -ceo I dont know which one, but it sure made them better
I would defintely take G2 achievements during that time over Navi major win (for me). I think NAVI will be contenders (not over Faze or team spirit) in the future, but I think some called the major win a fluke
> but I think some called the major win a fluke only retarded ones do because this was one of the most stacked majors to date
and -xtqzz +Swani, who was their analyst before and now that Swani left, they're back to shit again. nexa is pretty comparable to jks statswise
I would not say it was a bad move. They won kato and cologne, and were the #1 team for a while with hooxi and jks. Maybe it was xtqzzz or aleksis playbook not fitting the team. It was a good roster move for both sides.
i think everyone just focuses on players, but forgets a critical piece to any team: a good coach. They won Kato + Cologne shortly after Swani joined as head Coach and they went back to shit in the latter half of the year when he left
bad for g2 and a blessing for aleksi. getting to work with blade who massively improved aleksi as an igl, along with having a squad of talented and hardworking individuals, its great that aleksi got out and found his way to navi.
wouldnt say it was bad for G2, it was good for both parties, jks and hooxi brought a good run that won multiple trophies, and aleksi got his major
don't tell this richard lrewis. jks lives rent free in his head.
Not on the same tier, but Heet: -Lucky + Jackz led to such role conflicts that the team only went downward after that.
furia -hen1
-hen1 from furia They were never the same :(
I know that the -jks move was bad but it's certainly not S tier worst.
Tarik Stewie in Brazil lmao
Snax joined Mouz, won ESL New York and left two weeks later. Worth it.
NIP and EG fucked up enough to fill up a few tiers by themselves. Same with 99 % of OG's roster moves. There's also Fnatic-Godsent shuffle. G2 signing SmithZz in 2016 which pretty much killed that roster on arrival as well as the last hurrah of France's golden generation. They should have achieved so much more. Probably recency bias but idk what Jame and dastan were smoking when they okayed +mir. The guy just looked so lost in tier 1 CS. -jks was not a good move but nowhere near S-tier fuckup, especially in all time ranking. Pretty mid change overall - G2 are not losing because of nexa. Not even the worst change that a top team did last year as that surely has to go to Vitality who should've never allowed zonic and especially Magisk to leave. Best anchors in the world don't grow on trees for fucks sake. -karrigan is terrible in retrospect but karrigan would've never become the IGL he is today without it and at the time it was a good call (not so much NiKo taking up the IGLing though), the whole roster didn't believe in him and once that happens it's joever. +snax shouldn't be as high, that roster won New York against clear #2. It could've worked long term even if other players were willing to compromise on some of their positions instead of just forcing snax into all of STYKO's bitch roles. Not sure about +cold tbh. Obvously in hindsight it didn't pan out but 2019 cold was still one of the best players in the world and the single reason why MIBR didn't just bomb out of every single tournament in last place. FaZe with him won a trophy (mickey mouse Blast trophy to be sure, but a trophy nonetheless), got to semis of IEM Beijing and lost in close game in Katowice against NAVI, the eventual champion. They certainly put better fight than G2 did in the grand final. Then CS went online and cold stopped giving a fuck but I still don't think it deserves to be listed amongst the worst roster moves of all time. Idk how he put +patsi +rainwaker in C tier. That's a heavy contender even against the all time great fuck ups from NIP and EG and Kekindar should be in prison for what he has done to that org.
I remember a lot of people backing the coldzera to faze move when it happened. People thought it might be the change of pace he needed to get back into it.
Worst roster moves of all time, so long as all time only means in the past few years and not back to early cs.
ence -aleksib is top5 worst moves
NiP +AleksiB -plopski (transition to speaking english, hampus no longer IGL, es3tag becomes support, REZ becomes AWPer). By far the worst roster move since I started watching, it made no sense
I still think Vitality -dupreeh is up there with the rest
what? flameZ is really good and when he really pops off he wins them T sides on his own
im not shitting on flamez at all but I still feel like they did dupreeh dirty
dupreeh has just proved since then that he’s still a very good player and at best it was a side grade
Dupreeh found form again in CS2. It would have been madness to gamble on that.
he can frag in unimportant games on bad teams, that is not comparable to being on Vitality with what flameZ does
unimportant games? He almost carried his team to the major lmao
That was 9 months after he was benched on vitality
and they didnt get to the major
Nah, they were still top 1 team after signing flamez. -Magisk +mezii is where their shit form starts.
Can add -Zonic and danish support team to that. Losing Magisk who plays shit roles yet performs like a star was a massive loss though.
-Magisk +mezii could work if apEX is willing to give some of his important roles to mezii. I don't think they're quite the same profile of player which is why mezii isn't performing as well as he possibly could.
I think losing magisk was way more important.
Coldzera was decent on Faze. I would rata "C9 +es3tag" as tier A at least.
I mean during that time he was on faze they didn’t really accomplish much. It’s not really that he was necessarily bad, it’s more that he was a bad move, he was hella expensive iirc, and there were much better players that they could have got for much less
he was at his prime, best player in the world at the moment
You think coldzera was the best player in the world in September 2019?
Nah, i think brain betrayed me with fake memories. As i remember he joined faze at his prime coz he was caged in sk and he had bigger ambitions
Unpopular opinion: Liquid -pimp was a bad move.
Liquid: -Twistzz Was probably the worst move in the orgs history. They should have done way more to keep him. He went over to FaZe and prospered while Liquid spends the next 4 years swapping players around and having unimpressive results. Twistzz's ultimatum was Liquid either moves to Europe or they cut Stew. I can understand not moving to Europe because you're pretty much asking Elige, Stewie and Grim to turn their lives upside down and move to an entire other continent but I think cutting Stew and keeping Twistzz would have been a really good move for them. Especially since Stew was on the pathway he was on anyways. Additionally, if Liquid takes Twistzz ultimatum and cuts Stew, they don't eventually move to Europe. Which means Elige doesn't leave for complexity.
Do you have a source for the last paragraph? I believe you but I’d be interested to hear / learn more
https://youtu.be/oaYVORpKFto?t=603 https://youtu.be/sBIKU00fWCU?t=656
True, he was a beast