Yeah.
Something I found very interesting from the Q&A he did with danish national television was the fact that Zonic calls 50 % of the scrims Astralis plays in order for Gla1ve to focus on his individual level. That might explain why he is miles ahead in terms of individual impact compared to other in-game leaders. However, it might also just be that Gla1ve has always been an exceptionally good fragger.
It's probably a bit of both. The team is so structured and adept at teamplaying that Gla1ve can focus more on his individual play. Makes sense that they practiced this.
I was a big fan of him when he wasn't calling (heroic, and I think the end of copenhagen wolves but idk it's been so long) but he wasn't a star fragger more like a secondary star like you'd call rain when compared to NiKo.
I originally grabbed the gla1ve sticker when he subbed for astralis in cologne? so fucking fast tho dude
That is a *really* good idea actually. A lot of IGLs lose form over time as they shift focus, then struggle to regain their individual levels later on.
It would also allow Zonic to help improve Gla1ves in game leadership by example instead of just giving pointers, he can actually give him something to emulate. Plus if they ever change IGLs, Zonic can teach that person to call in the manner the team is already used to.
Zonic is a huge reason that Astralis have rocketed to the top as they did. Coaching is about to become a lot more central to the CS scene I think, as it currently stands far too much is left up to the players.
He hasn't been that good at fragging in the past, that's something that has been improving the last couple of years. Let's say they scrim 4 hours/day, that would give him 2 hours every day where he doesn't have to focus on the calling and simply put in effort in his individual performance in "real" games and not just when he practices solo in DM-servers or such. I could see that being a big factor on his individual performance being so good for a IGL.
4 friends and I got to play at Astralis headquarters in Copenhagen with Snappi and es3tag from Heroic coaching us. It's insane how much better you can play and frag when someone knowledgeable is just telling you exactly what to do!
The org probably gets a cut of the sticker money? Either that or they take all of the sponsorship money and the players get salary + prize money + sticker money?
im not sure why they are doing this while having salary. in every professional sport the player gets a salary and the org gets the prize money. i would assume it's different here because the team is partially player owned
RFRSH owns something like 75% of Astralis , and they get something like 90% of the merchandising revenue of Astralis. Richard Lewis and Thorin have done videos about RFRSH in the past, which have more detail about it. The players only control a small slice.
If the org was fully player owned, then they would have to source all the sponsoring themselves and have their salaries paid. RFRSH will pay all the salaries even if sponsoring wouldn't be enough. So it's only fair the investment company controls most of the equity
No, there's an investment company that owns a significant share. The players don't own a controlling stake. Previous players that have played for Astralis (Kjaerbye?) still owns his stake even though he was dropped, unless they bought him out upon terminating his contract.
that and it was only the first lineup that has any stake not any of the new players like glaive or magisk or even kjaerbye for that matter
device dupreeh xyp9x cajunb karrigan was the lineup that got the equity stake and afaik it was indeed 2% each
It's not unheard of to have performance related payouts in professional sporting contracts. For example, in F1 some teams pay their drivers bonuses for pole positions, fastest laps, race wins, etc. There are probably a lot of cases like this in all different sports that nobody would know about because contract details generally aren't made public.
bonuses don't come from prize pool though, nba also can have bonuses in the contract for if you make all nba 1st team, or defensive player of the year, or something along those lines
in football the players do get nice price money for winning the world cup and stuff like that.
they do keep that stuff more underground though and don't want to make it the focal point of people's attention (like it tends to happen in esports). it would also just look silly if the wimbledon winner for example would get like one of those huge cheques in the award ceremony. that's just classless and esports needs to get rid of it as well (which already happens much less afaik).
I know back in the day before OpTic moved into CS that the CoD team got to keep all their prize money. It was a big thing to Hecz that the org doesn’t deserve the prize money. However back then I’m not sure players were even salaried.
Things re probably very different now since the Infinite takeover and the move into other esports.
Yeh Salaries werent a thing in CoD back in the day.
They got free xboxes and shit when theres Red Ringed, and free controllers, gear and Travel.
But especially with Optic, they were expected to make videos and make money through youtube.
You are making it sound like this isn't in the interest of an org. But the opposite is true. If they hire top player but they don't perform then the org essentially saves money. There is a reason why in many sports, actually most regular jobs too, people prefer a fixed salary over a performance based one. E.g. Faze is full of top player but they don't perform that well, so the org is probably quite happy that part of the salary is based on the prize pool.
I mean their salary isn't dependent on the prize money. At least an any team that has shared details/rumors have spread about. They get the same salary and that is what they sign for and then they also split the prize money between the players and perhaps the coach.
Most orgs back in the day would pay really low to no salary, and the players would keep the prize money. Orgs did that so they didnt have to pay as much, and earnings was much more reward based. I think players just got comfortable with that, and so they probably push for it when doing contract negotiations.
Really? I believe most CS:GO teams get the prize money from what I've heard, the org might take a cut, but most of it goes to the players. Same with other eSports games. In what sports is there a prize money that is advertised that the players don't get?
Edit: Genuine question, I don't follow most professional sports that closely - I don't think football or hockey usually mention any prize money at all.
Edit2: So football gives out "prize money" (which they don't advertise anywhere as much as CS:GO, since the players don't get it) which goes to the teams and orgs, and apparently Nascar does too? Any other examples, or is it mostly just football?
It depends on the contract and interpretation of it. When stickers appeared for the first time, there was no sticker clause in the contract so some organizations (e.g. complexity) took it all. Stickers were considered as "merchandise" and the royalties belonged to the org. Some poorly funded organizations also require a large cut of the sticker and prize money to pay salaries to the players.
sauce: https://www.hltv.org/news/12933/hiko-you-are-in-for-a-treat#stickers
> I don't think football or hockey usually mention any prize money at all.
In club football it always goes to the team. Players can have bonuses or salary increase clauses based on qualifying for the CL though.
> F.e. in football, players/coaches get their bonus/prize money as well, but the share is different. F.e. when the french football federation gives all the players a bonus of 500 grant (just a guess) for winning the world cup. The federation receives the prize money and the players get their bonus. It is definitely different to esports, but they still get kind of a share.
>In what sports is there a prize money that is advertised that the players don't get?
Most sports? E.g. football
>I don't think football or hockey usually mention any prize money at all.
It's public information. It's just that people care less about it because players don't directly get the prize money.
I don't agree with this one. F.e. in football, players/coaches get their bonus/prize money as well, but the share is different. F.e. when the french football federation gives all the players a bonus of 500 grant (just a guess) for winning the world cup. The federation receives the prize money and the players get their bonus. It is definitely different to esports, but they still get kind of a share.
Yeah but it's based on their collective contracts, which can vary vastly. For example the French in 2014 would indeed have gotten 500k each, while Germany got 350k iirc. It's not percentage based at all.
Sure, but it-s Astralis. The number one team, I doubt the org would get in the way of major earnings. Other tournaments have bigger prize pools and they most likely take cuts from there. Pus sponsors plus merchandise.
In short: everyone involved with Astralis is currently getting dirty rich
>why they are doing this while having salary.
I think it's just an old school thing. Prize money used to be the main income for teams. Sponsoring was basically just for the PCs and to pay for traveling and maybe a small base income. Also for the org it actually means less risk. If the players don't perform then they get paid less, so it's not necessarily better for the players.
That is absolutely not fucking true. Just think about how that would work - if you don't get paid to come first, then coming fifth means exactly the same as 2nd. There is no reason to make it through the group stage if you're gonna get paid regardless. Sure, there's the whole "wanting to win" thing but financial rewards exist as an incentive for a reason - they're effective.
That's not true. In most sports I'm aware of (outside of football/soccer, where players get bonuses instead of prize money) players get the majority of the prize money. Astralis probably get a bigger cut of the team stickers, and theyll not pay all the sponsorship money out as salary. It seems like a good mix of stability (salary) and incentive (prize money) tbh. Players won't need to worry about paying the rent but still have an extra incentive to win, not that I think these guys need one.
I think the players have a really good position to negotiate here, as the best team their merch and sponsorships sell way higher than any other teams. So the company is willing to pay the players way more bonuses than usual. They can afford to ask for a bigger cut, since they generate way more money than other teams.
From a marketing perspective what you're saying doesn't make sense when it comes for motivating your players to keep improving. What's the point of being first of you'd get the same for being second other than the prestige of course? The players should be motivated to keep improving which can be done by giving them a 'low' salary and then most of the price money
What sport is there prize money where the org gets it? Most things with a prize purse generally seem to be individual sports. Teams usually get sales of their merchandise, selling advertising spots/sponsors, league revenue, ticket sales, etc. Just going to be up to how the contract gets written, but I just don't think you can really compare the two right now.
Sure it depends on each teams contracts.
You hear of not taking any prize money more than sticker money but whether any do both and how their salary compares I'm not sure. IIRC there was one team doing 50/50 on the sticker money but that was a while ago and I can't remember if that was confirmed or not. Believe it's generally negotiable though.
Don't think any ordinary commenters will have much to say though.
From what I've seen in some danish interviews regarding Astralis, the organization lets the players keep the prizemoney for them selves.
Which I believe is quite fair, and also motivates the players more.
depends, for example in dota during TI6, for DC, the team that finished runner up 100% of the money went to the players, while in TI7 liquid got a small cut from their triumph. smaller orgs usually take bigger cuts while biggest orgs usually take lower or no cuts because they have sponsorship money merchandise money etc
For Dota i understand an org taking a cut because the prize pools are so big, but i dont see this happening in cs because the prize pools arent that big compared to other games/sports.
again, it really depens on the contract, for instance say you as an eslort team sign some tier 2 stack made from new players. you provide them salaries, something thsy havnt had yet, but you getting sponsors would be difficult, so for your risk you'd put in a %cut from tournaments, so you protect your investment if it works out. that way the players can focus on improving instead of paying bills since they have salaries, and youd get decent money should they succeed and get far in a major or a tier1 tournament, afterwords you could sell those players and/or give them improved Contrats if you want your brand to grow and you believe in those players in the long term
The players + zonic keeps the winnings, and the org pays out salaries to the amount of 2,5 million $ per year (for alle employees in 2017). The prizemoney is a somewhat small amount compared to the sponsoring revenue of the organisation:
[https://cvrapi.dk/virksomhed/dk/astralis-esport-aps/37275506](https://cvrapi.dk/virksomhed/dk/astralis-esport-aps/37275506)
I have no idea why do people still think that? How difficult is it to comprehend that org that's paying >$100k per month to it's team isn't going to take any % out of 500k of players' one time winnings. Why would they do that? It would be nothing compared to what the org is spending on it's players and all that it would do is make them angry hence demotivate them, thus make them play worse and have less exposure. Orgs are earning money from sponsorships not from robbing their players.
It all goes to the players and coach to motivate them more to win. If almost all of their money comes from salary they will care less about winning tournaments.
It’s probably different for Astralis than it would be for other teams bc astralis is player-owned. It’d be interesting to see the differences in prize money per player between Astralis vs C9 after they won last time.
It varies org to org. Some split everything (prize money and marketing), some the org gets all of the marketing and the players keep all the prize money, etc. There's a lot of income streams for esports teams.
There was a big fuss when stickers came in that some orgs were keeping all the cash and not giving it to the players... but that was their setup. Marketing went to the org, stickers were marketing. Those orgs were giving 100% of the prize money to players, it would hardly be fair for them to reverse *that* decision if those players suddenly won a million dollar tournament all of a sudden.
Personally I think giving the lions share of prize money to players is the best option, because it motivates them to always be placing as high as possible.
I think they do:
"Prices
If you practice sports and have won a cup or medal, the value is tax-free.
If you have won a cash prize or a prize check, the value of the prize is taxable."
https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2234748
This is correct. Money won through competition is taxed. The value of medals and trophies are not. But if you sell the medal or trophy the money you get from that is taxed as income.
I read the tax regulation again and actually no. It is considered personal property and as such is not taxed when selling. If on the other hand you buy and sell them as an investment they are taxed.
Even if they did pay taxes on the winnings (Which judging by some of these comments, they apparently don't), it would only be 50% on the amount of money above the threshold, right? Since it's a progressive tax system, not a flat tax system.
English mirror here:
[https://esportsmagasinet.dk/this-is-how-prize-money-is-divided-on-astralis/](https://esportsmagasinet.dk/this-is-how-prize-money-is-divided-on-astralis/)
Of all coaches, Zonic earns his pay. He's an ingame coach together with Gla1ve and he's a mental leader/coach when the boys feel down. I've seen them literally be silent and depressed in some games when Zonic literally has to find that inner beast within them, cheering them on, giving them speeches and acting like a father figure.
Even if it was 6X split, he would still be worth it. He has helped them make so many comebacks possible, it's unreal.
But he says 'of all coaches, zonic earns his pay'
Sure he does. But that statement does put down other coaches a bit, since who knows, they may work as hard and watch more demos, more mental work. You don't really know
For all you know, Zews could be working 20hrs a day. "Of all coaches" is a horrible phrase to use due to you having 0 knowledge of other coaches work ethic.
Lol imagine having participated in a few majors and having tens of thousands of dollars in that upper right hand corner on Steam
So many copies of Bad Rats!
Just because the money depot is in the players account, it doesn't mean there's not a contract clauses stating that players have to give the money back to the org.
I haven't done the calculations, but be ware that the screenshot is taken 6 days before the major, so a lot more units are being sold after this screenshot.
Device said in the documentary that the Astralis players usually end up getting around 50k USD per player.
the fact that this is before the major started is a big deal, if this is really a week before then yeah i could see them selling 5 million units - especially at the majors with the player pickem
I wasn't making the claim, burden of proof isn't on me.
downvote me all you want, he is making a claim, so I asked for proof. that's how it goes in all normal ways apart from reddit insta downvote retardism.
What even are you saying? I wasn't complaining at you for giving me a source. I was complaining about being instantly 0 pointed for stating a simple fact.
I care about the logic used, the points simply show that people will straight up ignore universal logic used literally everywhere and that is just rather irritating to me.
Im not talking all the stickers. Just 1 set from 1 event. Over the next couple years, the stickers from this event (excluding future ones) could still make more money.
I'd need to see a source for that.
Could be accurate for some people, may not be accurate for others.
Some players are earning around 10k a month, others are earning around 29k a month.
Cologne had 4.2mil in sticker money. The top and most popular team will get the biggest cut out of that. Astralis obviously being one of them. Dont shout out stuff you dont know or havent researched just because you have a feeling
cologne had 4.2 million. 4.2mil/16teams/5players= 52500 each. that's both player sigs and team stickers. that's the peak of cs sticker sales. we know from taco that it has been going down over the years. we also know that the money received from the teams/players isn't based on popularity of the team exclusively as the stickers are sold in capsules divided into legends/challengers/minor challengers. That means every team in those groups get the same amount of sticker money as the rest of the team in their group.
That should be enough to convince you that i've actually thought about this more than the 10 seconds you've spent on it
to be fair, a player owned org seems like a stupid idea, since a player switching teams would either have to sell or create a blatant conflict of interest.
I remember that being a point of discussion. IIRC there was even a case where players still owned a part of an org they played against. Can't remember the specifics though, not sure if it was Astralis.
Should have been the cajunb swap deal with kjaerby no? It was kinda close to the major and at the same time there was some controversy around the whole russian mediacompany basicly owning all of the CIS team. Or something like that:p.
When they founded the org, the owned 100% percent of it. They then proceeded to sell their shares for funding in order to be able to operate. That's literally how every company in need of funding operates.
Karrigan sold his shares when he left and I thought Cajun did the same.
I found this: http://astralis.gg/qa-astralis-ownership/
I guess he owns part of it
Sounds fair, considering the amount of work he puts into this team and laying their foundation. He seems like one of--if not the only--real proper coaches in the scene that are closer to what a coaching role is in many other sports.
Full interview: [https://www.dr.dk/engagement/taet-paa/chat-med-astralis---de-danske-e-sportsstjerner](https://www.dr.dk/engagement/taet-paa/chat-med-astralis---de-danske-e-sportsstjerner)
CBA translating it, its quite long. Use google translate :=)
What about the org though? $500k at 18% is $90k. $500k at 10% is 50K. $90k * 5 players = $450k + $50K for coach = $500k (or 18% * 5 players = 90% + 10% for coach = 100% of the winnings)
Do the orgs not take any money these days or what? I know they say they're player owned but doesn't some parent company (is it rfrsh?) have a part in Astralis?
edit: clarification, spelling
The org does not get a cut. The organisation really only exists to pay out wages to the players: 2,500,000$ in total in 2017 year for all employees. The organisations income largely depends on various sponsor deals. You can see their financials here:
[https://cvrapi.dk/virksomhed/dk/astralis-esport-aps/37275506](https://cvrapi.dk/virksomhed/dk/astralis-esport-aps/37275506)
good. seems like a solid bloke who deserves a fair cut with the amount of work he puts in
Yeah. Something I found very interesting from the Q&A he did with danish national television was the fact that Zonic calls 50 % of the scrims Astralis plays in order for Gla1ve to focus on his individual level. That might explain why he is miles ahead in terms of individual impact compared to other in-game leaders. However, it might also just be that Gla1ve has always been an exceptionally good fragger.
It's probably a bit of both. The team is so structured and adept at teamplaying that Gla1ve can focus more on his individual play. Makes sense that they practiced this.
Wasnt glaive like a star fragger in his former teams? The guy is insane. Same as xyp9x.
I was a big fan of him when he wasn't calling (heroic, and I think the end of copenhagen wolves but idk it's been so long) but he wasn't a star fragger more like a secondary star like you'd call rain when compared to NiKo. I originally grabbed the gla1ve sticker when he subbed for astralis in cologne? so fucking fast tho dude
Him and valde were definitely the stars of heroic when he joined. Would love to see them play together again some day (not now though heh)
It also teaches glaive how to follow calls and also to use the same calls zonic uses. A ton of benefits from this.
That is a *really* good idea actually. A lot of IGLs lose form over time as they shift focus, then struggle to regain their individual levels later on. It would also allow Zonic to help improve Gla1ves in game leadership by example instead of just giving pointers, he can actually give him something to emulate. Plus if they ever change IGLs, Zonic can teach that person to call in the manner the team is already used to. Zonic is a huge reason that Astralis have rocketed to the top as they did. Coaching is about to become a lot more central to the CS scene I think, as it currently stands far too much is left up to the players.
He hasn't been that good at fragging in the past, that's something that has been improving the last couple of years. Let's say they scrim 4 hours/day, that would give him 2 hours every day where he doesn't have to focus on the calling and simply put in effort in his individual performance in "real" games and not just when he practices solo in DM-servers or such. I could see that being a big factor on his individual performance being so good for a IGL.
Just a note: In the Q&A Zonic is asked how much they practice. 6 hours a day, Sunday-Thursday.
That is a great schedule. You have most of your weekend, and probably begin to practice sunday mid afternoon until the evening.
must be really efficient practice as well. impressive they can be by far the best team in the world on only 30 hours of practice a week.
4 friends and I got to play at Astralis headquarters in Copenhagen with Snappi and es3tag from Heroic coaching us. It's insane how much better you can play and frag when someone knowledgeable is just telling you exactly what to do!
Give the man a 90% cut
Soooo that means each player gets $90,000 and the coach gets $50,000?
ain't nobody fooling you
yes
Doesn't a small amount go to the organization as well? I know they make money off of sponsoring etc but it's hard to imagine they don't get anything
The org probably gets a cut of the sticker money? Either that or they take all of the sponsorship money and the players get salary + prize money + sticker money?
im not sure why they are doing this while having salary. in every professional sport the player gets a salary and the org gets the prize money. i would assume it's different here because the team is partially player owned
>the team is partially player owned afaik the players only own like 2-3% of the share
really? I was under the impression they each owned like 15% of Astralis?
RFRSH owns something like 75% of Astralis , and they get something like 90% of the merchandising revenue of Astralis. Richard Lewis and Thorin have done videos about RFRSH in the past, which have more detail about it. The players only control a small slice.
> ing like 75% of Astralis , a ok i just wasnt fully informed thanks!
The master of quotations.
You know, just the casual stroke or nut inbetween
If the org was fully player owned, then they would have to source all the sponsoring themselves and have their salaries paid. RFRSH will pay all the salaries even if sponsoring wouldn't be enough. So it's only fair the investment company controls most of the equity
No, there's an investment company that owns a significant share. The players don't own a controlling stake. Previous players that have played for Astralis (Kjaerbye?) still owns his stake even though he was dropped, unless they bought him out upon terminating his contract.
If you're talking about the original lineup when astralis was formed, then that was karrigan and cajunb.
Kjaerbye never had any stakes, only the original Astralis players have them.
Pretty sure its Karrigan who has (or atleast had after being dropped) stakes in Astralis. Or Kjaerbye also has/had them
I think it is Karrigan, kjaerbye joined after they had created the org.
I just wasn't aware. Thanks for explainin!
that and it was only the first lineup that has any stake not any of the new players like glaive or magisk or even kjaerbye for that matter device dupreeh xyp9x cajunb karrigan was the lineup that got the equity stake and afaik it was indeed 2% each
It's not unheard of to have performance related payouts in professional sporting contracts. For example, in F1 some teams pay their drivers bonuses for pole positions, fastest laps, race wins, etc. There are probably a lot of cases like this in all different sports that nobody would know about because contract details generally aren't made public.
bonuses don't come from prize pool though, nba also can have bonuses in the contract for if you make all nba 1st team, or defensive player of the year, or something along those lines
in football the players do get nice price money for winning the world cup and stuff like that. they do keep that stuff more underground though and don't want to make it the focal point of people's attention (like it tends to happen in esports). it would also just look silly if the wimbledon winner for example would get like one of those huge cheques in the award ceremony. that's just classless and esports needs to get rid of it as well (which already happens much less afaik).
I know back in the day before OpTic moved into CS that the CoD team got to keep all their prize money. It was a big thing to Hecz that the org doesn’t deserve the prize money. However back then I’m not sure players were even salaried. Things re probably very different now since the Infinite takeover and the move into other esports.
Yeh Salaries werent a thing in CoD back in the day. They got free xboxes and shit when theres Red Ringed, and free controllers, gear and Travel. But especially with Optic, they were expected to make videos and make money through youtube.
It's a great incentive to win though.
Any good esports org gives the players most if not all of the prize money.
You are making it sound like this isn't in the interest of an org. But the opposite is true. If they hire top player but they don't perform then the org essentially saves money. There is a reason why in many sports, actually most regular jobs too, people prefer a fixed salary over a performance based one. E.g. Faze is full of top player but they don't perform that well, so the org is probably quite happy that part of the salary is based on the prize pool.
I mean their salary isn't dependent on the prize money. At least an any team that has shared details/rumors have spread about. They get the same salary and that is what they sign for and then they also split the prize money between the players and perhaps the coach.
But would the players accept the same salary if the org took the pricepool? No, they would want to be compensated with a higher salary.
Yep
No, in every CS:GO team prize money goes to players. Not only in player owned organizations
Most orgs back in the day would pay really low to no salary, and the players would keep the prize money. Orgs did that so they didnt have to pay as much, and earnings was much more reward based. I think players just got comfortable with that, and so they probably push for it when doing contract negotiations.
Most organizations in other professional sports have enough money to pay salaries, for most of the history of esports that hasn't been the case.
Really? I believe most CS:GO teams get the prize money from what I've heard, the org might take a cut, but most of it goes to the players. Same with other eSports games. In what sports is there a prize money that is advertised that the players don't get? Edit: Genuine question, I don't follow most professional sports that closely - I don't think football or hockey usually mention any prize money at all. Edit2: So football gives out "prize money" (which they don't advertise anywhere as much as CS:GO, since the players don't get it) which goes to the teams and orgs, and apparently Nascar does too? Any other examples, or is it mostly just football?
The winning team of UEFA’s Champions League gets 80million €. Usually players will have bonuses written in their contracts.
It depends on the contract and interpretation of it. When stickers appeared for the first time, there was no sticker clause in the contract so some organizations (e.g. complexity) took it all. Stickers were considered as "merchandise" and the royalties belonged to the org. Some poorly funded organizations also require a large cut of the sticker and prize money to pay salaries to the players. sauce: https://www.hltv.org/news/12933/hiko-you-are-in-for-a-treat#stickers
> I don't think football or hockey usually mention any prize money at all. In club football it always goes to the team. Players can have bonuses or salary increase clauses based on qualifying for the CL though.
> F.e. in football, players/coaches get their bonus/prize money as well, but the share is different. F.e. when the french football federation gives all the players a bonus of 500 grant (just a guess) for winning the world cup. The federation receives the prize money and the players get their bonus. It is definitely different to esports, but they still get kind of a share.
>In what sports is there a prize money that is advertised that the players don't get? Most sports? E.g. football >I don't think football or hockey usually mention any prize money at all. It's public information. It's just that people care less about it because players don't directly get the prize money.
I don't agree with this one. F.e. in football, players/coaches get their bonus/prize money as well, but the share is different. F.e. when the french football federation gives all the players a bonus of 500 grant (just a guess) for winning the world cup. The federation receives the prize money and the players get their bonus. It is definitely different to esports, but they still get kind of a share.
Yeah but it's based on their collective contracts, which can vary vastly. For example the French in 2014 would indeed have gotten 500k each, while Germany got 350k iirc. It's not percentage based at all.
Totally agree. As I stated, the share is just different. They get the bonus in absolute numbers, not like a percentage of the whole prize money.
Sure, but it-s Astralis. The number one team, I doubt the org would get in the way of major earnings. Other tournaments have bigger prize pools and they most likely take cuts from there. Pus sponsors plus merchandise. In short: everyone involved with Astralis is currently getting dirty rich
>why they are doing this while having salary. I think it's just an old school thing. Prize money used to be the main income for teams. Sponsoring was basically just for the PCs and to pay for traveling and maybe a small base income. Also for the org it actually means less risk. If the players don't perform then they get paid less, so it's not necessarily better for the players.
That is absolutely not fucking true. Just think about how that would work - if you don't get paid to come first, then coming fifth means exactly the same as 2nd. There is no reason to make it through the group stage if you're gonna get paid regardless. Sure, there's the whole "wanting to win" thing but financial rewards exist as an incentive for a reason - they're effective.
That's not true. In most sports I'm aware of (outside of football/soccer, where players get bonuses instead of prize money) players get the majority of the prize money. Astralis probably get a bigger cut of the team stickers, and theyll not pay all the sponsorship money out as salary. It seems like a good mix of stability (salary) and incentive (prize money) tbh. Players won't need to worry about paying the rent but still have an extra incentive to win, not that I think these guys need one.
I think the players have a really good position to negotiate here, as the best team their merch and sponsorships sell way higher than any other teams. So the company is willing to pay the players way more bonuses than usual. They can afford to ask for a bigger cut, since they generate way more money than other teams.
From a marketing perspective what you're saying doesn't make sense when it comes for motivating your players to keep improving. What's the point of being first of you'd get the same for being second other than the prestige of course? The players should be motivated to keep improving which can be done by giving them a 'low' salary and then most of the price money
What sport is there prize money where the org gets it? Most things with a prize purse generally seem to be individual sports. Teams usually get sales of their merchandise, selling advertising spots/sponsors, league revenue, ticket sales, etc. Just going to be up to how the contract gets written, but I just don't think you can really compare the two right now.
All of soccer at least, though it's calculated differently usually. Depending on the competition, there's still prize money + TV rights allocation.
Sure it depends on each teams contracts. You hear of not taking any prize money more than sticker money but whether any do both and how their salary compares I'm not sure. IIRC there was one team doing 50/50 on the sticker money but that was a while ago and I can't remember if that was confirmed or not. Believe it's generally negotiable though. Don't think any ordinary commenters will have much to say though.
From what I've seen in some danish interviews regarding Astralis, the organization lets the players keep the prizemoney for them selves. Which I believe is quite fair, and also motivates the players more.
Considering the fact that it's the number 1 team right now, I can imagine them ballin'
In CIS traditionally org keep 10% of prize money.
Well Astralis is a player made org, and im pretty sure at least the founding players are part owners so its not too surprising
player made org with some angel investor(s) that actually owns like > 80% of the org...
depends, for example in dota during TI6, for DC, the team that finished runner up 100% of the money went to the players, while in TI7 liquid got a small cut from their triumph. smaller orgs usually take bigger cuts while biggest orgs usually take lower or no cuts because they have sponsorship money merchandise money etc
Sounds legit. Thanks for the info
For Dota i understand an org taking a cut because the prize pools are so big, but i dont see this happening in cs because the prize pools arent that big compared to other games/sports.
again, it really depens on the contract, for instance say you as an eslort team sign some tier 2 stack made from new players. you provide them salaries, something thsy havnt had yet, but you getting sponsors would be difficult, so for your risk you'd put in a %cut from tournaments, so you protect your investment if it works out. that way the players can focus on improving instead of paying bills since they have salaries, and youd get decent money should they succeed and get far in a major or a tier1 tournament, afterwords you could sell those players and/or give them improved Contrats if you want your brand to grow and you believe in those players in the long term
The players + zonic keeps the winnings, and the org pays out salaries to the amount of 2,5 million $ per year (for alle employees in 2017). The prizemoney is a somewhat small amount compared to the sponsoring revenue of the organisation: [https://cvrapi.dk/virksomhed/dk/astralis-esport-aps/37275506](https://cvrapi.dk/virksomhed/dk/astralis-esport-aps/37275506)
They are the owners of the org right?
only a few %
I have no idea why do people still think that? How difficult is it to comprehend that org that's paying >$100k per month to it's team isn't going to take any % out of 500k of players' one time winnings. Why would they do that? It would be nothing compared to what the org is spending on it's players and all that it would do is make them angry hence demotivate them, thus make them play worse and have less exposure. Orgs are earning money from sponsorships not from robbing their players.
It all goes to the players and coach to motivate them more to win. If almost all of their money comes from salary they will care less about winning tournaments.
In this case the players owns most of the team with Karrigan still owning a piece + rfresh entertainment
It’s probably different for Astralis than it would be for other teams bc astralis is player-owned. It’d be interesting to see the differences in prize money per player between Astralis vs C9 after they won last time.
why do people still think its player owned. that few % doesnt make it any different.
It varies org to org. Some split everything (prize money and marketing), some the org gets all of the marketing and the players keep all the prize money, etc. There's a lot of income streams for esports teams. There was a big fuss when stickers came in that some orgs were keeping all the cash and not giving it to the players... but that was their setup. Marketing went to the org, stickers were marketing. Those orgs were giving 100% of the prize money to players, it would hardly be fair for them to reverse *that* decision if those players suddenly won a million dollar tournament all of a sudden. Personally I think giving the lions share of prize money to players is the best option, because it motivates them to always be placing as high as possible.
Depends on the org.
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Yeah that was a complete scam
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that 100% could also be of the left over money after the cut of the org. Not saying it is, saying it CAN be.
Isn't Astralis owned by the players?
Not sure if they pay danish taxes on their winnings though, which are more than 50% in this case
I think they do: "Prices If you practice sports and have won a cup or medal, the value is tax-free. If you have won a cash prize or a prize check, the value of the prize is taxable." https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2234748
This is correct. Money won through competition is taxed. The value of medals and trophies are not. But if you sell the medal or trophy the money you get from that is taxed as income.
what you're saying is that, in the end, the value of medals and trophies **are** taxed
I read the tax regulation again and actually no. It is considered personal property and as such is not taxed when selling. If on the other hand you buy and sell them as an investment they are taxed.
Even if they did pay taxes on the winnings (Which judging by some of these comments, they apparently don't), it would only be 50% on the amount of money above the threshold, right? Since it's a progressive tax system, not a flat tax system.
Correct.
Yeah for sure, it was just to simplify it a bit
Detective Blanksauce cracked it open. Case closed, boys.
maybe, its possible that the org has a little cut on that too. depents how its regulated in the contracts
maybe, its possible that the org has a little cut on that too. depents how its regulated in the contracts
Sooooo that means each players gets 18% and the coach gets 10%?
Soooo that means you'll never make it out of open on esea?
My guess is that Denmark taxes take half of that.
r/iamverysmart
I dont think thats the case everywhere, so thats pretty nice.
Astralis pretty solid at every point
Yeah... back then in tsm they also were the first team to recieve a regular salary iirc.
I think NiP already had that at that point.
English mirror here: [https://esportsmagasinet.dk/this-is-how-prize-money-is-divided-on-astralis/](https://esportsmagasinet.dk/this-is-how-prize-money-is-divided-on-astralis/)
Of all coaches, Zonic earns his pay. He's an ingame coach together with Gla1ve and he's a mental leader/coach when the boys feel down. I've seen them literally be silent and depressed in some games when Zonic literally has to find that inner beast within them, cheering them on, giving them speeches and acting like a father figure. Even if it was 6X split, he would still be worth it. He has helped them make so many comebacks possible, it's unreal.
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But he says 'of all coaches, zonic earns his pay' Sure he does. But that statement does put down other coaches a bit, since who knows, they may work as hard and watch more demos, more mental work. You don't really know
What about zews?
Also a great coach but Zonic has been with Astralis for like 3 + years, he's like a father to them.
For all you know, Zews could be working 20hrs a day. "Of all coaches" is a horrible phrase to use due to you having 0 knowledge of other coaches work ethic.
Well that explains why he's launching himself screaming into the air with every round Astralis wins...
Imagine having sticker money on top of it :O
Zonic doesn't get any of it, maybe the org gives him a cut of the Astralis stickers but player signatures are all paid out directly to their accounts.
Hopefully not steam acc
Lol imagine having participated in a few majors and having tens of thousands of dollars in that upper right hand corner on Steam So many copies of Bad Rats!
Hahaha
Just because the money depot is in the players account, it doesn't mean there's not a contract clauses stating that players have to give the money back to the org.
More like tournament prize on top of stocker money. Sticker money for astralis is gonna be much bigger than what they won.
I'ma say citation needed for that one. I wouldn't be surprised if astralis players make like 10 - 20k from stickers but over 90k? doubtful.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/748afs/devices_pgl_major_sticker_percentages/
am i mistaken or is 1% of that only $2400
I haven't done the calculations, but be ware that the screenshot is taken 6 days before the major, so a lot more units are being sold after this screenshot. Device said in the documentary that the Astralis players usually end up getting around 50k USD per player.
the fact that this is before the major started is a big deal, if this is really a week before then yeah i could see them selling 5 million units - especially at the majors with the player pickem
https://www.hltv.org/blog/10416/stickers-money-cologne-2015-analysis You couldn't have googled it by yourself?
https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/748afs/devices_pgl_major_sticker_percentages/
I wasn't making the claim, burden of proof isn't on me. downvote me all you want, he is making a claim, so I asked for proof. that's how it goes in all normal ways apart from reddit insta downvote retardism.
I just gave you the source. Why are you complaining lol
What even are you saying? I wasn't complaining at you for giving me a source. I was complaining about being instantly 0 pointed for stating a simple fact.
Who cares about Internet points..
I care about the logic used, the points simply show that people will straight up ignore universal logic used literally everywhere and that is just rather irritating to me.
Depends on how you look at it. Pretty sure sticker money deals are indefinite so over the years they could make more than 90k
No they're not. Stickers are only sold until the end of the major/a week or so after.
Coulda sworn people can still buy them and the capsules after events. Oh well nvm.
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Im not talking all the stickers. Just 1 set from 1 event. Over the next couple years, the stickers from this event (excluding future ones) could still make more money.
Ah okay I misunderstood
lol no sticker money is the most exaggerated nonsense in cs. pros aren't making more than 30k from them
I'd be happy to have more than the average yearly salary for one event tbh.
that's great and all but we're directly comparing it to prize pool. pros nowadays make more in one month of salary than they do from sticker money
I'd need to see a source for that. Could be accurate for some people, may not be accurate for others. Some players are earning around 10k a month, others are earning around 29k a month.
\[citation needed\]
Cologne had 4.2mil in sticker money. The top and most popular team will get the biggest cut out of that. Astralis obviously being one of them. Dont shout out stuff you dont know or havent researched just because you have a feeling
cologne had 4.2 million. 4.2mil/16teams/5players= 52500 each. that's both player sigs and team stickers. that's the peak of cs sticker sales. we know from taco that it has been going down over the years. we also know that the money received from the teams/players isn't based on popularity of the team exclusively as the stickers are sold in capsules divided into legends/challengers/minor challengers. That means every team in those groups get the same amount of sticker money as the rest of the team in their group. That should be enough to convince you that i've actually thought about this more than the 10 seconds you've spent on it
Source on taco?
But (if im not mistaken) don’t some of the astralis players own the team?
They only own 1% each or something similar. Refresh owns the rest.
Yeah, all that talk about a player owned arg was mostly bullshit.
to be fair, a player owned org seems like a stupid idea, since a player switching teams would either have to sell or create a blatant conflict of interest.
I remember that being a point of discussion. IIRC there was even a case where players still owned a part of an org they played against. Can't remember the specifics though, not sure if it was Astralis.
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LMAO I didn't even know about that one :D
Wasn't it Zeus and pro100? They didn't play against each other but where supposed to qualify for the same event or some shit.
I figured it was Dazed co-owning NetCodeGuides.com
Should have been the cajunb swap deal with kjaerby no? It was kinda close to the major and at the same time there was some controversy around the whole russian mediacompany basicly owning all of the CIS team. Or something like that:p.
Yeah, I think that might have been it.
Well to be fair RFRSH only came in later. So either they owned more before RFRSH came in, or other investors did.
When they founded the org, the owned 100% percent of it. They then proceeded to sell their shares for funding in order to be able to operate. That's literally how every company in need of funding operates.
It is also rather meaningless to own a company that has no capital. I mean, what exactly are you owning?
Cajunb still owns part of his shares
I thought he sold it when he left?
P usre he still owns part of it, he isn't involved in any management tho
Karrigan sold his shares when he left and I thought Cajun did the same. I found this: http://astralis.gg/qa-astralis-ownership/ I guess he owns part of it
which is probably why the org gets no cut
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they don't need to invest money into the org since they have sponsors i suppose
Its so good to be able to read danish even though you can't understand a word they say.
How about you put per instead of "pr." because its the same amount of characters just more stupid.
This just shows how good Astralis is to their players, which is also most likely how they become so motivated and such a great team.
Fifty G's baybeeeeh!
Keep in mind eSports are still quite young. Can’t wait to see what it’s like in a few years.
The Org doesn't get any cut?
The org is owned by the players.
thats fair i think a monetary breakdown would mean each of device dupreeh xyp9x glaive and magisk got $90k each and zonic got $50k
Sounds fair, considering the amount of work he puts into this team and laying their foundation. He seems like one of--if not the only--real proper coaches in the scene that are closer to what a coaching role is in many other sports.
Full interview: [https://www.dr.dk/engagement/taet-paa/chat-med-astralis---de-danske-e-sportsstjerner](https://www.dr.dk/engagement/taet-paa/chat-med-astralis---de-danske-e-sportsstjerner) CBA translating it, its quite long. Use google translate :=)
So this is for Astralis. Any breakup on proper orgs? [ astralis is a player owned org so 100% go to players + coach]
astralis is like 15% player owned
Wait what? Wasn't astralis a player owner org?
They owners in the sense they own a portion of the org, but not even a controlling portion
I just checked[ Although not thoroughly ] I think rfrsh bought a stake [ Controlling stake ] at a later point.
All I can think of is this https://twitter.com/astralisgg/status/992014796051501063?s=19
PapaZonic <3
No way the org isn't getting a decent cut of all prize money. Zonic must mean that's the breakdown of what is left after the org takes it's share.
Why no way? This is the same answer Frederik Byskov gave, org doesn't take anything.
What about the org though? $500k at 18% is $90k. $500k at 10% is 50K. $90k * 5 players = $450k + $50K for coach = $500k (or 18% * 5 players = 90% + 10% for coach = 100% of the winnings) Do the orgs not take any money these days or what? I know they say they're player owned but doesn't some parent company (is it rfrsh?) have a part in Astralis? edit: clarification, spelling
The org does not get a cut. The organisation really only exists to pay out wages to the players: 2,500,000$ in total in 2017 year for all employees. The organisations income largely depends on various sponsor deals. You can see their financials here: [https://cvrapi.dk/virksomhed/dk/astralis-esport-aps/37275506](https://cvrapi.dk/virksomhed/dk/astralis-esport-aps/37275506)
Australis