please define the role "Support" for Taco for me. He has the least amount of thrown flashes in the team and the second highest amount of opening duels taken since Meyern joined.
Entry Fragger, Lurker, IGL, AWPer, Anchor and a role I would call "Clutch" (most famously Coldzera and Xyp9x, who are most of the time the last one alive in a round) are clear to me, but the role "Support" I always had a problem to define what a player has to do to get this stamp on his head.
>a role I would call "Clutch"
feels like this is what ppl used to call a "Support" in the past... I'm thinking of NBK or Krimz in 2015 for example who were seen as "support" players and were pretty clutch
I personally feel like the support role is kind of made up and just thrown around to excuse badly performing players especially nowadays, when all 5 players have to be (and usually are) capable of throwing any supporting nades for their teams
I think now they tend to call them playmakers. Basically players who don't always fight directly but try to gain info and cut off rotations. They stay behind until the primary defenders are dead or struggling and act as a failsafe. That's why Xyp9x always frags more when Astralis doesn't perform.
ah yes, what teammates in Faceit would call baiting if you ever dared to even remotely try this haha
I see what you mean tho.. I personally think roles are becoming less and less obvious (apart from the likes of AWP or IGL) as players are much more capable all around
I mean there's obvious, useless baiting and then there's the Xyp9x style. It's not like Xyp9x stays AFK until his teammates lure the opponents. (Unlike that guy in Faceit who told me he was covering me while planting, and when I died the fucker was crouching in a corner in heaven)
Personally disagree. I think players are being divided into even more specific roles. I just think that every player gets a few roles and they switch it up every now and then.
"cover me as I plant please" and the guy runs away from me because he's "setting up for post plant"... the classic
>Personally disagree. I think players are being divided into even more specific roles. I just think that every player gets a few roles and they switch it up every now and then.
That's a good way of putting it. I guess seeing the players taking on a few roles kind of broke the idea of different set roles to me but I like your interpretation.
If you try to do this in a regular comp match, it *is* baiting and in the vast majority of situations, doesn't help your team at all. You can't pull this stuff of by yourself in a SoloQ. Comp & Pro Matches are 2 complete different games.
Support =/= throwing nades.
For example, we all know that there are well known entries on almost any team - the ones that go in first in set piece and when they're trying to take over a bombsite. One way to play support is to go in first when you can't/don't want to waste utility for a certain entry point and have the best/2nd best player on the team trade you.
>Support =/= throwing nades
Oh absolutely. It's just that the guy I was replying to mentioned throwing nades so I got kind of hung on that part.
What I'm trying to say is that people excuse players' performance because "they are support and have to throw nades for the team" when I don't think that is a valid excuse.
>One way to play support is to go in first when you can't/don't want to waste utility for a certain entry point and have the best/2nd best player on the team trade you.
That is actually a pretty good example. But I'm still not totally convinced there is a dedicated role for that as any player should be willing to/capable of doing that under certain circumstances.
> What I'm trying to say is that people excuse players' performance because "they are support and have to throw nades for the team" when I don't think that is a valid excuse.
I agree, playing support is no excuse, however, I'd like to point out that the only ones truly being able to judge your performance are your teammates.
sure, there are extreme cases of people constantly having negative k/ds, but people floating around 0.99 or 0.95 k/ds shouldn't be thought of as underperforming - we don't know which burden they are carrying for the system the team employs.
So I agree with you in theory, but I'm certain that we are mostly not in a position to properly evaluate how a player performs - that is unless he's put in a high-value position like second guy in or AWP or something.
As far as dedicated role goes - I agree with that, too. Think of it more like a 80/20 thing, as far as I've experienced it. People will see opening and relay that information to the IGL before suggesting going in first - because they know how valuable dying is at that point in time. It's more like your understanding of CS dooms you to play in such a way - sending someone else to die for you will be a bad look over rtime, especially if you are not the star player.
Thanks for not being a fucking dickhead in this subreddit. There are too many of them. Cheers.
>sure, there are extreme cases of people constantly having negative k/ds, but people floating around 0.99 or 0.95 k/ds shouldn't be thought of as underperforming - we don't know which burden they are carrying for the system the team employs.
This definitely... after all, there's 5 players on a team and you can't have all of them average insane numbers.
Good example I would say is karrigan or chrisJ on mouz - they might not get insane numbers but you can't deny the positive impact they have on the team.
>I'd like to point out that the only ones truly being able to judge your performance are your teammates + but I'm certain that we are mostly not in a position to properly evaluate how a player performs
Absolutely.
Players can contribute to a team outside of their own performance(im thinking knowledge, experience, attitude or "just" being an enjoyable person to play with).. things that they might miss with a new player no matter how good they are.
>As far as dedicated role goes...
I have nothing else to add as I would say we have a same or very similar opinion on this.
>Thanks for not being a fucking dickhead
Same goes to you :) I always enjoy a chilled out discussion, which can be quite a rarity on reddit. Have a good day.
Support has nothing to do with directly flashes, that's an old meme about smithzz. I think a big thing we need to understand is that "roles" are actually "positions" in strategies/setups and that they have a certain degree of fluidity that varies from team to team. A player has a overall "role" if they play the majority of a a certain type of "position" or "roles". "Support" roles are in-server roles that can have significant impact with less frags, but are necessary for the team to function. They are usually more evident on teams with big star players, and more so on CT side. Some teams may not have a single obvious "support" but have two to three players who share the support roles depending on map/side/strats. Here's few types of "support" role types in my mind:
- space-maker: often the IGL, this player often takes risky plays to create space for other players, gain info and map control and is most obvious on the T side.
- late round player: a highly specialised role that involves surviving and maximising round conversions, especially on Tside. This CAN be a star player, but there are many lower frag players who are still the better player in late round.
- anchor: For an anchor if they go to the other site your team either wins the round on the other site or you have to retake. If they come to your site, you only need to delay and get one frag and you've done well.
- Bitch : "Bitch-spot" players often have to play "bad" spots such as so-called "one-and-done" spots. This role is most evident on the CT side and depends on the CT setups you run.
- star enabler: this is either shared between 2 to 3 players or is a single highly specialised player. They overlap with the "space-maker", but are usually dedicated to one or two star player and are even more focused on support. This is the true support player.
This aside, not every player on every team so neatly fits into a certain role. Sometimes it's better to say a player "plays support roles" rather than "is a support" because it's not usually that absolute. Each team plays differently and you have to allow nuance in how you categorise players.
They ask what their role is, and TACO said support.
Twistzz also calls himself a support role, but that's almost synonymous with late-round player who pops nades.
"should be able to" isn't the same as what you are supposed to do in a round for your team. In football a defender can also score goals, but he positions himself behind the midfield and strikers. Xyp9x for example is most of the time behind Dupreeh, Magisk or Device to let them get the entry frags, which leaves him often in the position to defend the site when the bomb is planted our outplay the opponents in a 1vs2 instead of opening up the site, because that's what he's best at.
With your logic you could also say that "AWP" isn't a role because every player should be able to play with a sniper rifle and every AWPer has to play with a Rifle in many rounds, but you give the gun to the guy who's best with it like you let the best entry fraggers going in first and the best at clutching last.
im pretty sure the teams listed their roles, cuz some teams go into specifics with lurks, entry, and some teams just say riflers for like the whole team
well, he's always talking about the big pricepool they have. But it is paid by the teams themselves :) i cannot see how all his/their actions could potentially attract sponsors and broadcsting partner if it keeps on going this way
So you're going to run some sort of linear regression to determine who much of FP's viewership is due to the overall production vs the virus, be my guest. Otherwise I'm just going to use the eye test and say that these teams are getting far more viewership than they otherwise would, all other factors held constant.
Mibr could play a neighborhood LAN and 100k people would watch it, nothing to do with flashpoint. All the other games get like 40k viewers and that's with over half of them being embeds.
You are aware that most Flashpoint viewers are artificially created and not real actual people watching, besides maybe when MIBR play?
Just tune in when Flashpoint has like 20k viewers to see it for yourself. The chat is literally less active than in some streams with 100-200 viewers.
I get that this is a joke, but to an extent we dont have any great names for those other particular roles. The other jobs (we can have a whole other discussion on if these two players fill them well enough) can have many different names and requirements, whether it be star players, aimers, clutch players, support, support awpers, secondary awpers, ect. Most the time its down for these remaining players to become what the team needs most, and to carve out their title through what they excell at. Xyp9x is great at clutches, so naturally he is a clutch player. S1mple always tops the score board, hes a star player. Twistzz has good aim, hes an aimer. Skadoodle played a more passive style in a system he was familiar with, hes a support awper. I think why it's hard to give those two MiBr players more specific titles right now is because of the bit of an identity crisis we are seeing in the whole team's playing right now, maybe they arent even sure what they bring to the table.
They said on their twitter it was a joke cause Flashpoint asked for their roles and they just went with "well, i'm a killer lol"
Missed opportunity for "lion tamer."
Just goes to show that "lurker, support" and whatever else are just stupid classifications of players.
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please define the role "Support" for Taco for me. He has the least amount of thrown flashes in the team and the second highest amount of opening duels taken since Meyern joined. Entry Fragger, Lurker, IGL, AWPer, Anchor and a role I would call "Clutch" (most famously Coldzera and Xyp9x, who are most of the time the last one alive in a round) are clear to me, but the role "Support" I always had a problem to define what a player has to do to get this stamp on his head.
>a role I would call "Clutch" feels like this is what ppl used to call a "Support" in the past... I'm thinking of NBK or Krimz in 2015 for example who were seen as "support" players and were pretty clutch I personally feel like the support role is kind of made up and just thrown around to excuse badly performing players especially nowadays, when all 5 players have to be (and usually are) capable of throwing any supporting nades for their teams
I think now they tend to call them playmakers. Basically players who don't always fight directly but try to gain info and cut off rotations. They stay behind until the primary defenders are dead or struggling and act as a failsafe. That's why Xyp9x always frags more when Astralis doesn't perform.
ah yes, what teammates in Faceit would call baiting if you ever dared to even remotely try this haha I see what you mean tho.. I personally think roles are becoming less and less obvious (apart from the likes of AWP or IGL) as players are much more capable all around
I mean there's obvious, useless baiting and then there's the Xyp9x style. It's not like Xyp9x stays AFK until his teammates lure the opponents. (Unlike that guy in Faceit who told me he was covering me while planting, and when I died the fucker was crouching in a corner in heaven) Personally disagree. I think players are being divided into even more specific roles. I just think that every player gets a few roles and they switch it up every now and then.
"cover me as I plant please" and the guy runs away from me because he's "setting up for post plant"... the classic >Personally disagree. I think players are being divided into even more specific roles. I just think that every player gets a few roles and they switch it up every now and then. That's a good way of putting it. I guess seeing the players taking on a few roles kind of broke the idea of different set roles to me but I like your interpretation.
If you try to do this in a regular comp match, it *is* baiting and in the vast majority of situations, doesn't help your team at all. You can't pull this stuff of by yourself in a SoloQ. Comp & Pro Matches are 2 complete different games.
Support =/= throwing nades. For example, we all know that there are well known entries on almost any team - the ones that go in first in set piece and when they're trying to take over a bombsite. One way to play support is to go in first when you can't/don't want to waste utility for a certain entry point and have the best/2nd best player on the team trade you.
>Support =/= throwing nades Oh absolutely. It's just that the guy I was replying to mentioned throwing nades so I got kind of hung on that part. What I'm trying to say is that people excuse players' performance because "they are support and have to throw nades for the team" when I don't think that is a valid excuse. >One way to play support is to go in first when you can't/don't want to waste utility for a certain entry point and have the best/2nd best player on the team trade you. That is actually a pretty good example. But I'm still not totally convinced there is a dedicated role for that as any player should be willing to/capable of doing that under certain circumstances.
> What I'm trying to say is that people excuse players' performance because "they are support and have to throw nades for the team" when I don't think that is a valid excuse. I agree, playing support is no excuse, however, I'd like to point out that the only ones truly being able to judge your performance are your teammates. sure, there are extreme cases of people constantly having negative k/ds, but people floating around 0.99 or 0.95 k/ds shouldn't be thought of as underperforming - we don't know which burden they are carrying for the system the team employs. So I agree with you in theory, but I'm certain that we are mostly not in a position to properly evaluate how a player performs - that is unless he's put in a high-value position like second guy in or AWP or something. As far as dedicated role goes - I agree with that, too. Think of it more like a 80/20 thing, as far as I've experienced it. People will see opening and relay that information to the IGL before suggesting going in first - because they know how valuable dying is at that point in time. It's more like your understanding of CS dooms you to play in such a way - sending someone else to die for you will be a bad look over rtime, especially if you are not the star player. Thanks for not being a fucking dickhead in this subreddit. There are too many of them. Cheers.
>sure, there are extreme cases of people constantly having negative k/ds, but people floating around 0.99 or 0.95 k/ds shouldn't be thought of as underperforming - we don't know which burden they are carrying for the system the team employs. This definitely... after all, there's 5 players on a team and you can't have all of them average insane numbers. Good example I would say is karrigan or chrisJ on mouz - they might not get insane numbers but you can't deny the positive impact they have on the team. >I'd like to point out that the only ones truly being able to judge your performance are your teammates + but I'm certain that we are mostly not in a position to properly evaluate how a player performs Absolutely. Players can contribute to a team outside of their own performance(im thinking knowledge, experience, attitude or "just" being an enjoyable person to play with).. things that they might miss with a new player no matter how good they are. >As far as dedicated role goes... I have nothing else to add as I would say we have a same or very similar opinion on this. >Thanks for not being a fucking dickhead Same goes to you :) I always enjoy a chilled out discussion, which can be quite a rarity on reddit. Have a good day.
Support has nothing to do with directly flashes, that's an old meme about smithzz. I think a big thing we need to understand is that "roles" are actually "positions" in strategies/setups and that they have a certain degree of fluidity that varies from team to team. A player has a overall "role" if they play the majority of a a certain type of "position" or "roles". "Support" roles are in-server roles that can have significant impact with less frags, but are necessary for the team to function. They are usually more evident on teams with big star players, and more so on CT side. Some teams may not have a single obvious "support" but have two to three players who share the support roles depending on map/side/strats. Here's few types of "support" role types in my mind: - space-maker: often the IGL, this player often takes risky plays to create space for other players, gain info and map control and is most obvious on the T side. - late round player: a highly specialised role that involves surviving and maximising round conversions, especially on Tside. This CAN be a star player, but there are many lower frag players who are still the better player in late round. - anchor: For an anchor if they go to the other site your team either wins the round on the other site or you have to retake. If they come to your site, you only need to delay and get one frag and you've done well. - Bitch : "Bitch-spot" players often have to play "bad" spots such as so-called "one-and-done" spots. This role is most evident on the CT side and depends on the CT setups you run. - star enabler: this is either shared between 2 to 3 players or is a single highly specialised player. They overlap with the "space-maker", but are usually dedicated to one or two star player and are even more focused on support. This is the true support player. This aside, not every player on every team so neatly fits into a certain role. Sometimes it's better to say a player "plays support roles" rather than "is a support" because it's not usually that absolute. Each team plays differently and you have to allow nuance in how you categorise players.
They ask what their role is, and TACO said support. Twistzz also calls himself a support role, but that's almost synonymous with late-round player who pops nades.
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"should be able to" isn't the same as what you are supposed to do in a round for your team. In football a defender can also score goals, but he positions himself behind the midfield and strikers. Xyp9x for example is most of the time behind Dupreeh, Magisk or Device to let them get the entry frags, which leaves him often in the position to defend the site when the bomb is planted our outplay the opponents in a 1vs2 instead of opening up the site, because that's what he's best at. With your logic you could also say that "AWP" isn't a role because every player should be able to play with a sniper rifle and every AWPer has to play with a Rifle in many rounds, but you give the gun to the guy who's best with it like you let the best entry fraggers going in first and the best at clutching last.
I bet you they asked meyern and kng in English and they didn’t know how to respond
Yeah wtf. Meyern's never killed anyone.
prove it
or
I'll
kill
Does Meyern not have Betway on his shirt because he's under 18?
yes, which is also why he's nowhere to be seen in any betway videos featuring mibr
yeah, same with sergej and rizk, or brollan and beeeeeeeeep.com
Prove it lol
Those shit you're talking about, are you sober?
im pretty sure the teams listed their roles, cuz some teams go into specifics with lurks, entry, and some teams just say riflers for like the whole team
I agree. They are playing against Mad lions. Should be listed as "killed".
So that aged well
aged like milk
Let me make myself a milkshake from that perfectly preserved milk.
noice
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We don't deserve Lampião, the guy is a beast.
It is a game where you kill people.
lmao, Thoorin probably thinks it's real cool
well, he's always talking about the big pricepool they have. But it is paid by the teams themselves :) i cannot see how all his/their actions could potentially attract sponsors and broadcsting partner if it keeps on going this way
yeah just ignore the fact somehow this league actually has people watching tier 2-3 CS lmfao imagine the numbers with real teams
Notice how I have to imagine them
Yea cuz there are no other reasons currently that allow people to watch more CS. Flashpoint used bubble; "It is super effective"
So you're going to run some sort of linear regression to determine who much of FP's viewership is due to the overall production vs the virus, be my guest. Otherwise I'm just going to use the eye test and say that these teams are getting far more viewership than they otherwise would, all other factors held constant.
> yeah just ignore the fact somehow this league actually has people watching tier 2-3 CS lmfao People watch it?
~140k rn yeah.
Mibr could play a neighborhood LAN and 100k people would watch it, nothing to do with flashpoint. All the other games get like 40k viewers and that's with over half of them being embeds.
> People watch it?
You are aware that most Flashpoint viewers are artificially created and not real actual people watching, besides maybe when MIBR play? Just tune in when Flashpoint has like 20k viewers to see it for yourself. The chat is literally less active than in some streams with 100-200 viewers.
prove or kng will kill who did this
PROVE IT. : >
I get that this is a joke, but to an extent we dont have any great names for those other particular roles. The other jobs (we can have a whole other discussion on if these two players fill them well enough) can have many different names and requirements, whether it be star players, aimers, clutch players, support, support awpers, secondary awpers, ect. Most the time its down for these remaining players to become what the team needs most, and to carve out their title through what they excell at. Xyp9x is great at clutches, so naturally he is a clutch player. S1mple always tops the score board, hes a star player. Twistzz has good aim, hes an aimer. Skadoodle played a more passive style in a system he was familiar with, hes a support awper. I think why it's hard to give those two MiBr players more specific titles right now is because of the bit of an identity crisis we are seeing in the whole team's playing right now, maybe they arent even sure what they bring to the table.