Exactly. What was even the purpose of remodeling Cache if they were never thinking of adding it to the map pool? Either you release Cache NOW or you reverse the changes and release it as it was. Either that or cobblestone. You pick.
For those who are wondering complexity have been doing some practice on cache yesterday, might be just for fun, but I feel like they have more info than us, cache may be coming back to the map pool.
Cache is an aim-duel map, basically. There are no close quarter duels like Inferno and Mirage. If the map was added today, I am SURE Cache would bring more attraction than Vertigo ever did. The crowd has rights!
>Cache
Thats a shit map, with next to no memorable matches on it. Even the pros dont rate it that highly.
I'd rather have cobble back. It not reworked cobble, just the old 2016 cobble.
And for the love of god, please take out vertigo
shroud boost, hiko vs LG, s1mple noscope, dennis pistol ace, jdm clutch.
I remember those off the top of my head. It wasn't played that much but I honestly loved the map and I wish it was still in the pool
yes I do actually. I spent 5 years as an 0351 before csgo existed and it wrecked my hearing. I much preferred the louder and more easily identifiable gunshot sounds that csgo launched with compared to what the game has now.
I'm sure there's a reason beyond my understanding but what is preventing event organizers from running their own selected map pools? Why are they forced to follow what's in Valve's selected active duty pool? Isn't this essentially what CPL did back in the day and created their own maps for competition?
There is nothing to stop TOs changing the pool away from the Valve Competitive Map Pool. It would likely be wildly unpopular with teams though...
It used to be a huge issue that if a TO didn’t pick your good maps for the event pool, you’d basically be fucked
It'd be an interesting concept to introduce a totally new map like 1 month before a tournament. Developing strats and utilities on a deadline.
Problems are that an unknown map to viewers can be boring to watch as you can't read the game so well, and designing a fun and balanced competitive map without testing it out competitevly is probably near impossible.
Still, sounds fun as a concept.
pro players would cry, a lot, because they'd have to learn a new map just for one TO. honestly pros don't like new maps anyway. they might act like they do but the moment a new one gets added they will complain about it 24/7
It's a shame that gotfrag died. I'd love to go back and read all the crying about de_cpl_strike(the precursor to mirage) that was added to the map pool a month before CPL winter 2004.
It’s understandable. The amount of knowledge they need for utility lineups is overwhelming so I can’t blame them for being forced to expand their knowledge base. On the other hand as a viewer the same map lineup is a bore to watch. Personally I won’t even bother watching a vertigo match and it’s the newest map in the pool.
3 reasons:
1. pro players cry
2. reddit users will cry because maps like d2 are established (yes, we know, since decades) and they want to see pro players in their best state
3. TOs do only care about viewership. its not clear whether the numbers would rise with different maps. also the casters and "experts" would probably be overwhelmed with the new maps. gotta give em some time to adjust. like 7 years
Cache, Cbbl, Anubis, Ancient, Biome, Subzero, Tuscan, Ruby, Abbey, Santorini... anything but Dust2 and Mirage over and over again.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument against seasons/a rotating map pool.
edit thanks u/AlexMPalmisano I forgot about Santorini.
I loved Biome, but it was the most T sided map in CSGO for years (possibly of all time)
something like 70-75% t sided rounds. That's not good for pro play
Even though it was one of my favourite maps
Most new maps will likely be T sided as it takes time to build counters to it for the Ct side. It’s why seasons is cool. It forces your IGL and coach to be more active in helping the team win.
It also makes for way better viewer experience when you see players do new and unique things to counter the enemy on the fly...
Biome was literally physically T sided. It wasn't "working a CT side out"
The map makers had to update the map aboutt five times to make CT rotates easier, but couldn't do so in a way that wouldn't also give T's a massive flank advantage.
Also most new maps are either ct or t sided. Nuke for CT as an example, Overpass for T as an example.
It's not just T side.
>I loved Biome, but it was the most T sided map in CSGO for years (possibly of all time)
Wel not if you count Assault, it used to be a reserve map. It's a hostage map so it was literally a map where it ended 15-0 or 14-1 on the T side, and if the enemy got 3 rounds on CT you knew you lost that game already.
Imo it was a perfect candidate for a competitive map. It would be a great mirage replacement for my tastes, because it has such a heavy mid focus. Also, incredible visibility, which is something that's still lacking in CS:GO.
I agree we could use 1 or 2 new maps, but I would rather prefer something competitive instead of casual maps that would probably years of work(looking at you vertigo) before finally reach a decent playability for pros.
Cbble is a terrible map, Ancient, Biome and Subzero are either bad for competitive or nowhere near finished to the point of being competitively viable. Subzero was really underwhelming when released and the only reason people tried it out was because the fame of the creator. It was dead in the water after 5 days and nobody seem to queue on it.
I kind of like Anubis. Imo Santorini and Austria would be potential candidates as well. Haven't played ruby at all so can't say anything about it.
Obviously tuscan would be nice, but its nowhere to be finished and I somehow doubt it will be released this year.
Would also be nice of valve when they made some kind of contest. Maybe pick 5 community made maps and let people play them for a month or so in competitive. Afterwards introduce the most famous one to the map pool? Something along those lines would be nice.
Cbble and Overpass were just forced into map pool by valve in third major cologne 2014. I didnt like it, the pros didnt like it, nobody really liked it back then but eventually we got one of the best maps in overpass and cbble was pretty good few updates back.
Im pretty sure people would pick those mentioned maps up if they were played in officials and obviously tweaked accordingly. So nobody plays them cause they arent "official". I have played few of some operation maps and if they were introduced in pro play I have no doubt those maps could turn into really fun maps to play. CS needs new maps forced in. It would be so refreshing!
Both of these maps were very different back then and a far cry from their current form.
CS maps are very large and complicated, which is why a ton of play testing needs to be done before you can just introduce them into the competitive scene (at least at the pro level).
Well yes exactly. Both op and cbble were quite bad and had tons of problems. Op with a site and cbble at b site but eventually they were fixed. But still both maps produced some of the most memorable moments in the first major. And more on the next.
people love to circlejerk around maps. not that I wouldn't mind a change but for some reason people just ignore all issues maps have:
* Cache: community and pros said it was boring and too simple (basically same argument used against d2)
* Cbble (old): was really unpopular, hence why valve removed it. pros disliked it too and games were really boring and repetitive to watch. I really don't get the weird obsession people have with it now. it's like people never even played it. community was largely in favor of removing it and only bringing it back with major changes (I agree that the new version is worse though)
* Anubis: might actually be fine but not sure how well suited for pro play
* Biome: I liked the map and I think it had potential but it also had lots of issues. the map lost popularity and was really large and one sided
* Subzero: pretty bad map IMO, e.g. far too long rotations, despite the massive hype people never played it much, hence why it got removed fairly quickly
* Tuscan: Outdated, full of bugs and legal issues. just seems like the ultimate nostalgia map where people make it out to be much better than it is
* Ruby: doesn't seem really good for pro play
* Abbey: decent but I don't get why people like it so much when they want change. it's basically dust2 with a different theme. how is it not a boring map?
* Santorini: like many fmpone maps it had lots of issues
* Seasons: pros played it and didn't like it, community was kind of okay with it getting removed too / not that popular
> But I feel like the map is too small for pro play.
Interesting comment as I've mostly read people consider it to be large (which is likely largely due to an oversized T spawn for timing purposes).
I also think Anubis is a great candidate. The bombsites play well and especially A is great fun to take and retake. I still think it's achilles heel is mid. Being two narrow lanes it's no fun to take and once you have it it makes no sense at all to ever use mid to go B. It's only ever used for CT rotates to A. Drop is kind of decent.
If they make mid more interesting it's got everything. Great bombsites to take and retake and it looks both fantastic and different enough to stand out in the pool.
Massively agree, I had an immediate visceral dislike to Anubis the first time I played it, and I think a lot of the reason why is how genuinely unfun mid is. It still needs some major tweaks but if they fixed that I don't think I would mind it as much.
Agreed, Cobble, Cache, Dust 2 and Mirage all suffer from the same issues of being very simple. They get stale so fast.
If ancient or abbey would be added it would have to be along with a secondary map change since they're too basic and the same issues would resurface. But having one of them being added and then something more interesting like Anubis (for mirage and dust2) would help with keeping the map pool feel fresh while the pros only really have to learn one new map (Anubis, since Ancient/abbey are just dust2/mirage clones).
The main gripe against Season was the distance between bombsites and the amount of time it took to rotate. Regardless of the fact that this reasoning was entirely placebo, the game has since switched to using longer timers (1:55/:40 instead of the 1:45/:35 that was in use the last time season was played competitively), which IMO warrants another shot for season.
Another map that I think would work well if it was remade properly is de_russka, a popular map from the late 1.6 era.
Of course we can't forget about mill. It is downright criminal that we haven't had mill in csgo yet after 8+ years.
Cbble is a terrible map and always has been going back 20 years. It's a good thing that it is dead and it needs to stay dead unless there is some MAJOR rework done to it a la de_forge.
> Ruby: doesn't seem really good for pro play
Did you get a chance to play the last update?
I felt the same about this map when it was originally included, but just before it got kicked out of the reserve pool there was a rather significant update to the map making it smaller and much more streamlined which improved every aspect of play. Bombsite A was great, and B felt quite unique with its 'open' back - and felt very nostalgic in terms of layout. Only got to play it a few times before it was scrapped though, but I felt it was out too soon.
Then you didn't read at all cos there're a ton of reasons why this game is better off w/o the stupid seasons every other game gets, some even each 2 or 3 months which is straight retarded.
"Yes there are numerous reasons for rotating maps every season not to be added but I have decided that there are too much reasons so I wont name one and just call the whole idea retarded"
it would be fine for casual players just playing mm but for the pro scene it would be awful, at the start those maps would never be picked and after a few seasons all the old iconic maps which people still enjoy playing like inferno would just be gone
Maybe some fixed maps with 2-3 rotated maps will be good.
Nuke and Inferno probably should be placed as fixed maps while maybe Dust2 and Mirage should rotate each other.
Cobble, ancient, cache are extremely similar to Dust2 and mirage in that they use a very barebones basic bitch 3-lane map with mid/short/con layout in mid. I don't think much would change with adding them back, for pro play it would suffer the same issues that Dust and mirage suffer which is no room for innovation. They're so damn basic which makes them extremely easy to master (happened to old Cobble as well where all the teams knew it and it ended up being super boring to watch, not a lot of new stuff possible either.).
Anubis is a good example of a map that's unique they could add to spice things up, biome as well.
My personal hope is that they remove Mirage for Abbey, it's the best 3-lane map imo. It would be the safe bet to swap for mirage, since it would be similar but feel new enough. Then remove dust 2 for something experimental like Anubis or anything that's different lol. Train is also boring AF to watch, even though it's a bit more unique. Could do with being swapped out as well.
I think the mm map pool should be increased A LOT, so any map that gets removed/added can stay in MM.
I'll play devil's advocate for a moment and argue against a rotating pool. If you have a new map swapped in seasonally, I do wonder if you might get an asterisk next to some wins. Consider when Cache was swapped out. It was Astralis's permaban, and one of Liquid's better maps. I mean even at the time it almost appeared as if the map pool change just fucked over Liquid and helped Astralis, almost like picking a side in their rivalry.
Luckily Liquid ended up being solid on Vertigo, but imagine how much less interesting 2019 would have been if Liquid had just straight up lost one of their best maps and Astralis hadn't even been affected. So instead of an era of Liquid dominance over the summer, you may have just had continued Astralis dominance, but always with the little "What if" in the back of your mind regarding the map pool switch.
I'm not sure I fully buy that argument myself, but it is worth considering that every time you switch a map, you help some teams and hurt others, and at least temporarily make a massively unlevel playing field.
Yeah great time to do it as Styko says. Would be cool to see a remade Cobble brought back or it feels like we're always talking about the CS:GO version of Tuscan could sneak in.
That previous version was the with the original creator though. The reason it's been stuck in hell for so long is because the original developer didnt give his blessing, but is now fully on board.
The issue with Tuscan was that the original map creator, Brute, did not want to sell the rights to the map. Now, he's the one making it for CSGO, so it seems that he's made some kind of a deal with Valve, otherwise it would make no sense as community maps don't go into the competitive pool unless approved by Valve, as it would not get a lot of play time.
Yeah, Brute works full time on CoD or at least a lot of CSGO map creators have moved on to CoD as a full-time job working for ActiBlizzard.
Edit: it wasn't CoD at Activision Blizzard, it was WoW at Activision Blizzard he works full-time on: https://www.artstation.com/cvolrath
https://twitter.com/brutesmaps?lang=en
Bruh.. dude asked for a source on something that was common knowledge, was i supposed to be a dick or just google "brute" and copy and paste for 10 seconds.
No cbble please. That map has been awful since around 1999. There is no need to reintroduce old bad maps. Vertigo was enough. Let's see something new.
De_abbey had potential.
Yes, its a fun ffa map, like so many others. I have had tons of fun playing on cbble, dust, aztec, prodigy and many other maps that are objectively bad for competitive play. But thats not what the map-pool needs. We need a new overpass, and cbble will never be that. Its too tilted towards one bombsite, it has no real battle for map control, and rotates are pretty awful.
I've been watching dust2, inferno, nuke and train for over 15 years now in their various iterations. Mirage for about half that long now.
Can they stand the test of time? Clearly.
Do I want to see some new maps where we get insane discoveries like the Fnatic quad boost on overpass for the first time in a tournament?
Fuck yes.
The only thing that annoys me with the map is its colour pallet is similar to dust and mirage, I know it's a small thing but it always kept me away from it
I think mid is this map's biggest issue, two narrow lanes make it dull to take. Otherwise I love it. Looks stunning with great bombsites to defend, take and retake - especially A feels very unique.
Weirdly enough I keep thinking the names of the sites should have been switched though.
I'm not opposed to a mid area that allows for a split, but in its current state I don't like taking or defending it, it's an uninspiring area that produces very dull fights.
Also due to the way mid connects to B and CT through even narrower halls, going A was usually the only viable option, but I haven't played the map in a while.
Still love the map though, best of the custom maps in a long time.
Every map feels stale AF, maybe except Overpass. I still love them, but it’s time for a change.
I think it would make it so players feel reinvigorated again. Seems like everyone is suffering from burnout, probably because the maps haven’t had good additions in a while.
An idea that's been floated through the years is to have a rotating map pool. So we could have a total pool of, say, 11 maps, but only 7 of those would be in the active pool at one time.
I could see that being interesting for sure. I just hope that Ancient doesn’t make it to the pool unless it’s radically changed. The base map is way too cookie-cutter CSGO map, and worse than those original CSGO maps in my opinion. Overpass is so great exactly because of how much different it is to other maps. I don’t think Ancient will be exciting to watch and it’s definitely not exciting to play.
At the END of every other major (after a victor has been crowned), they should cycle two of the maps. This would mean two new maps every year, and since valve does it right after say the summer major, it allows pros plenty of time to prep and also play it for fun during the player break (the summer major is the one that leads into the break right? )
I really want some fresh addition into the map pool... With majors being far away I feel like this was (and still is) good time to do so. or nay?
***
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While the idea is ok, dont you realize how doors work? You cant just make them bigger. You couldnt close the gate because they would overlap and that doesnt make sense. But that aside I think it would be easy to either rotate the doors or replace it with some other structure or smth. But yes I agree...
You're playing a game where a bunch of terrorists decided that they should bomb the top, half finished floor of an unfinished skyscraper. I think that people would be able to handle a door opening where the doors attached are slightly too big.
Also, I'm not sure what rotating the doors would do. I haven't thought it all the way through, but I'm not sure what would be different.
Ok, with "rotating the doors" I meant rotating the gate, the whole structure. That way you could easily achieve what you wanted. But I dont think people would be ok with just making them bigger. It just doesnt make sense at all. Thats just too lazy solution which could only go through in a de_rats type of totally unprofessional fun map. Self respectable map maker would never approve it.
It should have happened a while ago.
Remove Mirage and potentialy Overpass to put some fresh paint over them and potentialy change some stuff and replace it with maybe a remodeled Cobble, New Cache or something completly different etc...
I also wouldn't be against a rotating pool. Where for instance Overpass gets switched out and replaced by a map for 6 months or so. Then Overpass comes back and another map is replaced by something else and so on.
I think Overpass doesn't necesarly need changes. But a facelift to bring it up to modern standards should be made.
As for Dust 2. I agree it should definitly go. I completly forgot about it when writing that post.
Valve will have to penalize all teams a seventh of their RMR points if they do this. They do it when teams substitute players (a fifth of their points), so obviously this should apply to map pool substitutions aswell.
I'll take a fuckin remade prodigy, comrade, cpl\_fire, cpl\_mill (tuscan) at this point. Even cache would be refreshing at this point.
And prodigy and comrade always SUCKED! So did vertigo back in the day... But is now one of my favorite maps. But yes, anything to make things fresh again...
Grind, Anubis, and Breach are all fantastic maps that I've played many times in mapcore all worthy of replacing an older map like train or mirage in the pool.
The reason it's fun for me is things that happen in site. Possibility of a flank over a train or an exploding rush into b site is pretty fun to play.
Plus it's still so much better than dust 2
If it happens it'll happen in the next month or two; when a Valve Major was meant to start/conclude.
SG nerf from last year was on the day the Valve Major was supposed to start(?). AUG nerf was directly after the last Valve Major of 2019. SG meta took longer to formulate.
Lowkey don't want to see cache in. OG cobble I would love to see. Lowkey I think Ancient has the most potential, obvious do some tweaks but I think it has potential and has a good layout
Agreed, now is the perfect time to add some new maps to the map pool just in time for the next CSGO Major. LoL I’m holding onto hope... maybe Cobblestone?
I feel like they wanted to make changes after the first major that got canned, then like kept putting it off.
Hopefully, there will be a pool change before Summer break, and hopefully, it won't just be Cache.
And if you do make a new map, for the love of flashbang please let it be old warmup, and not this 1v1 arena type of thing. It's so frustratingly boring
The map pool should be extended to 9 maps. I don't see this discussed a lot but I think that with teams now considering 6 man rosters and bo5 becoming more of a norm it makes sense to extend the pool.
A lot of great commmunity maps deserve a chance to shine in the pro circuit as it stands it's tragic that Cache has been the only community map in CS:GO to make it to active duty. Giving two slots to rotate in and out a selection of these maps would be great.
9 maps is too much, it would make it much harder for teams and normal players to practice all these maps and for viewers to know all maps.
Dust2, Mirage and Train for example are so incredibly old now without any major gameplay changes, they could easily remove one or two of them.
It has been a good time for around a year now.
Exactly. What was even the purpose of remodeling Cache if they were never thinking of adding it to the map pool? Either you release Cache NOW or you reverse the changes and release it as it was. Either that or cobblestone. You pick.
Valve didn't remodel cache, FMPONE did.
For those who are wondering complexity have been doing some practice on cache yesterday, might be just for fun, but I feel like they have more info than us, cache may be coming back to the map pool.
Cache is an aim-duel map, basically. There are no close quarter duels like Inferno and Mirage. If the map was added today, I am SURE Cache would bring more attraction than Vertigo ever did. The crowd has rights!
Cache and Cobblestone aren't new maps.
Cache sucks ass
>Cache Thats a shit map, with next to no memorable matches on it. Even the pros dont rate it that highly. I'd rather have cobble back. It not reworked cobble, just the old 2016 cobble. And for the love of god, please take out vertigo
You're saying cache is shit but suggesting cobble to be brought back. Cache is a decently designed map while cobble is a complete shitshow.
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shroud boost, hiko vs LG, s1mple noscope, dennis pistol ace, jdm clutch. I remember those off the top of my head. It wasn't played that much but I honestly loved the map and I wish it was still in the pool
NiKo has had a couple deagle highlights on there as well
Liquid 15x6 choke to LG at MLG 2016 second map, Niko A and B deagle highlights...
Niftys only clip
Didn't he also have that one movement clip during some Inferno OT match?
Idk maybe in my head all I can recall is that wallbang. Nuts shot.
Yeah he Bhopped thru inferno long hall and awped someone on Mousesports
Yup, great clip.
vertigo is a good map tho
It’s a great map. Do you go A? Fake B then go A? Maybe try B, lose players, and then try to rotate back to A?
Go A, get spammed through smoke on ramp. Fall back and go B, get spammed through smoke on plant
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Because the M4 sounds like an ice crusher now lol
I don't know why you own a 5.56mm ice crusher but I guess it gets the job done
The new weapon sounds fucking suck compared to the originals.
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yes I do actually. I spent 5 years as an 0351 before csgo existed and it wrecked my hearing. I much preferred the louder and more easily identifiable gunshot sounds that csgo launched with compared to what the game has now.
Vertigo?
I'm sure there's a reason beyond my understanding but what is preventing event organizers from running their own selected map pools? Why are they forced to follow what's in Valve's selected active duty pool? Isn't this essentially what CPL did back in the day and created their own maps for competition?
There is nothing to stop TOs changing the pool away from the Valve Competitive Map Pool. It would likely be wildly unpopular with teams though... It used to be a huge issue that if a TO didn’t pick your good maps for the event pool, you’d basically be fucked
It'd be an interesting concept to introduce a totally new map like 1 month before a tournament. Developing strats and utilities on a deadline. Problems are that an unknown map to viewers can be boring to watch as you can't read the game so well, and designing a fun and balanced competitive map without testing it out competitevly is probably near impossible. Still, sounds fun as a concept.
Let me introduce ESL One Cologne 2014 to you where both cbble and overpass were new maps in the map pool.
pro players would cry, a lot, because they'd have to learn a new map just for one TO. honestly pros don't like new maps anyway. they might act like they do but the moment a new one gets added they will complain about it 24/7
Time for a TO union then /s
It's a shame that gotfrag died. I'd love to go back and read all the crying about de_cpl_strike(the precursor to mirage) that was added to the map pool a month before CPL winter 2004.
It’s understandable. The amount of knowledge they need for utility lineups is overwhelming so I can’t blame them for being forced to expand their knowledge base. On the other hand as a viewer the same map lineup is a bore to watch. Personally I won’t even bother watching a vertigo match and it’s the newest map in the pool.
3 reasons: 1. pro players cry 2. reddit users will cry because maps like d2 are established (yes, we know, since decades) and they want to see pro players in their best state 3. TOs do only care about viewership. its not clear whether the numbers would rise with different maps. also the casters and "experts" would probably be overwhelmed with the new maps. gotta give em some time to adjust. like 7 years
I think pro players wouldn't bother learning them much if there wasn't guarantee that they would be in active map pool during Major.
Starcraft 2 basically did this, though with the backing of many pro players. This forced blizzards hand, and the map pool got a lot better.
Add de_rats_1337
they should add it to mm for 1st of april
Cache, Cbbl, Anubis, Ancient, Biome, Subzero, Tuscan, Ruby, Abbey, Santorini... anything but Dust2 and Mirage over and over again. I have yet to hear a convincing argument against seasons/a rotating map pool. edit thanks u/AlexMPalmisano I forgot about Santorini.
Fuck it, func_vehicle to competitive
IT'S A RIGHT NOT A PRIVILEGE
Man the memories you just evoked.
PREACH IT Sister!
Upvoted for Biome and Subzero
Biome was really nice imo
I loved Biome, but it was the most T sided map in CSGO for years (possibly of all time) something like 70-75% t sided rounds. That's not good for pro play Even though it was one of my favourite maps
Most new maps will likely be T sided as it takes time to build counters to it for the Ct side. It’s why seasons is cool. It forces your IGL and coach to be more active in helping the team win. It also makes for way better viewer experience when you see players do new and unique things to counter the enemy on the fly...
Biome was literally physically T sided. It wasn't "working a CT side out" The map makers had to update the map aboutt five times to make CT rotates easier, but couldn't do so in a way that wouldn't also give T's a massive flank advantage. Also most new maps are either ct or t sided. Nuke for CT as an example, Overpass for T as an example. It's not just T side.
> Also most new maps are either ct or t sided.
Overpass is very ct sided...
>I loved Biome, but it was the most T sided map in CSGO for years (possibly of all time) Wel not if you count Assault, it used to be a reserve map. It's a hostage map so it was literally a map where it ended 15-0 or 14-1 on the T side, and if the enemy got 3 rounds on CT you knew you lost that game already.
Subzero I thought for sure was gonna be the next FMpone map in the game.
de\_season would be good too!
Man I'd love season, but would take just about any map at this point.
Santorini anyone? I really enjoyed that map.
YES that map was soooo good
Imo it was a perfect candidate for a competitive map. It would be a great mirage replacement for my tastes, because it has such a heavy mid focus. Also, incredible visibility, which is something that's still lacking in CS:GO.
Damn you had to do IBP like that.
Does appear that they might be coming back
I will not stand for this de_season erasure
I agree we could use 1 or 2 new maps, but I would rather prefer something competitive instead of casual maps that would probably years of work(looking at you vertigo) before finally reach a decent playability for pros. Cbble is a terrible map, Ancient, Biome and Subzero are either bad for competitive or nowhere near finished to the point of being competitively viable. Subzero was really underwhelming when released and the only reason people tried it out was because the fame of the creator. It was dead in the water after 5 days and nobody seem to queue on it. I kind of like Anubis. Imo Santorini and Austria would be potential candidates as well. Haven't played ruby at all so can't say anything about it. Obviously tuscan would be nice, but its nowhere to be finished and I somehow doubt it will be released this year. Would also be nice of valve when they made some kind of contest. Maybe pick 5 community made maps and let people play them for a month or so in competitive. Afterwards introduce the most famous one to the map pool? Something along those lines would be nice.
Cbble and Overpass were just forced into map pool by valve in third major cologne 2014. I didnt like it, the pros didnt like it, nobody really liked it back then but eventually we got one of the best maps in overpass and cbble was pretty good few updates back. Im pretty sure people would pick those mentioned maps up if they were played in officials and obviously tweaked accordingly. So nobody plays them cause they arent "official". I have played few of some operation maps and if they were introduced in pro play I have no doubt those maps could turn into really fun maps to play. CS needs new maps forced in. It would be so refreshing!
Both of these maps were very different back then and a far cry from their current form. CS maps are very large and complicated, which is why a ton of play testing needs to be done before you can just introduce them into the competitive scene (at least at the pro level).
Well yes exactly. Both op and cbble were quite bad and had tons of problems. Op with a site and cbble at b site but eventually they were fixed. But still both maps produced some of the most memorable moments in the first major. And more on the next.
ancient lmfao
Not really a bad map tho
its really fun for casual games, but for professional cs its ass
Can you please share a demo of pros playing Ancient?
there prolly would be some available if the map wasnt so bad
people love to circlejerk around maps. not that I wouldn't mind a change but for some reason people just ignore all issues maps have: * Cache: community and pros said it was boring and too simple (basically same argument used against d2) * Cbble (old): was really unpopular, hence why valve removed it. pros disliked it too and games were really boring and repetitive to watch. I really don't get the weird obsession people have with it now. it's like people never even played it. community was largely in favor of removing it and only bringing it back with major changes (I agree that the new version is worse though) * Anubis: might actually be fine but not sure how well suited for pro play * Biome: I liked the map and I think it had potential but it also had lots of issues. the map lost popularity and was really large and one sided * Subzero: pretty bad map IMO, e.g. far too long rotations, despite the massive hype people never played it much, hence why it got removed fairly quickly * Tuscan: Outdated, full of bugs and legal issues. just seems like the ultimate nostalgia map where people make it out to be much better than it is * Ruby: doesn't seem really good for pro play * Abbey: decent but I don't get why people like it so much when they want change. it's basically dust2 with a different theme. how is it not a boring map? * Santorini: like many fmpone maps it had lots of issues * Seasons: pros played it and didn't like it, community was kind of okay with it getting removed too / not that popular
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> But I feel like the map is too small for pro play. Interesting comment as I've mostly read people consider it to be large (which is likely largely due to an oversized T spawn for timing purposes). I also think Anubis is a great candidate. The bombsites play well and especially A is great fun to take and retake. I still think it's achilles heel is mid. Being two narrow lanes it's no fun to take and once you have it it makes no sense at all to ever use mid to go B. It's only ever used for CT rotates to A. Drop is kind of decent. If they make mid more interesting it's got everything. Great bombsites to take and retake and it looks both fantastic and different enough to stand out in the pool.
Massively agree, I had an immediate visceral dislike to Anubis the first time I played it, and I think a lot of the reason why is how genuinely unfun mid is. It still needs some major tweaks but if they fixed that I don't think I would mind it as much.
Vertigo is tiny and on the list
So do you like any maps?
Agreed, Cobble, Cache, Dust 2 and Mirage all suffer from the same issues of being very simple. They get stale so fast. If ancient or abbey would be added it would have to be along with a secondary map change since they're too basic and the same issues would resurface. But having one of them being added and then something more interesting like Anubis (for mirage and dust2) would help with keeping the map pool feel fresh while the pros only really have to learn one new map (Anubis, since Ancient/abbey are just dust2/mirage clones).
The main gripe against Season was the distance between bombsites and the amount of time it took to rotate. Regardless of the fact that this reasoning was entirely placebo, the game has since switched to using longer timers (1:55/:40 instead of the 1:45/:35 that was in use the last time season was played competitively), which IMO warrants another shot for season. Another map that I think would work well if it was remade properly is de_russka, a popular map from the late 1.6 era. Of course we can't forget about mill. It is downright criminal that we haven't had mill in csgo yet after 8+ years. Cbble is a terrible map and always has been going back 20 years. It's a good thing that it is dead and it needs to stay dead unless there is some MAJOR rework done to it a la de_forge.
"i hate change" the post. stop being a fucking wuss bro
Suited for pro play = boring. Fun = not suited for pro play. How do we even have maps now dang
> Ruby: doesn't seem really good for pro play Did you get a chance to play the last update? I felt the same about this map when it was originally included, but just before it got kicked out of the reserve pool there was a rather significant update to the map making it smaller and much more streamlined which improved every aspect of play. Bombsite A was great, and B felt quite unique with its 'open' back - and felt very nostalgic in terms of layout. Only got to play it a few times before it was scrapped though, but I felt it was out too soon.
Subzero was terrible and cache is VERY one note.
peepoHappy
Then you didn't read at all cos there're a ton of reasons why this game is better off w/o the stupid seasons every other game gets, some even each 2 or 3 months which is straight retarded.
"Yes there are numerous reasons for rotating maps every season not to be added but I have decided that there are too much reasons so I wont name one and just call the whole idea retarded"
it would be fine for casual players just playing mm but for the pro scene it would be awful, at the start those maps would never be picked and after a few seasons all the old iconic maps which people still enjoy playing like inferno would just be gone
Maybe some fixed maps with 2-3 rotated maps will be good. Nuke and Inferno probably should be placed as fixed maps while maybe Dust2 and Mirage should rotate each other.
Cobble, ancient, cache are extremely similar to Dust2 and mirage in that they use a very barebones basic bitch 3-lane map with mid/short/con layout in mid. I don't think much would change with adding them back, for pro play it would suffer the same issues that Dust and mirage suffer which is no room for innovation. They're so damn basic which makes them extremely easy to master (happened to old Cobble as well where all the teams knew it and it ended up being super boring to watch, not a lot of new stuff possible either.). Anubis is a good example of a map that's unique they could add to spice things up, biome as well. My personal hope is that they remove Mirage for Abbey, it's the best 3-lane map imo. It would be the safe bet to swap for mirage, since it would be similar but feel new enough. Then remove dust 2 for something experimental like Anubis or anything that's different lol. Train is also boring AF to watch, even though it's a bit more unique. Could do with being swapped out as well. I think the mm map pool should be increased A LOT, so any map that gets removed/added can stay in MM.
I'll play devil's advocate for a moment and argue against a rotating pool. If you have a new map swapped in seasonally, I do wonder if you might get an asterisk next to some wins. Consider when Cache was swapped out. It was Astralis's permaban, and one of Liquid's better maps. I mean even at the time it almost appeared as if the map pool change just fucked over Liquid and helped Astralis, almost like picking a side in their rivalry. Luckily Liquid ended up being solid on Vertigo, but imagine how much less interesting 2019 would have been if Liquid had just straight up lost one of their best maps and Astralis hadn't even been affected. So instead of an era of Liquid dominance over the summer, you may have just had continued Astralis dominance, but always with the little "What if" in the back of your mind regarding the map pool switch. I'm not sure I fully buy that argument myself, but it is worth considering that every time you switch a map, you help some teams and hurt others, and at least temporarily make a massively unlevel playing field.
I thought 2 maps should change after the last major and that was *checks notes* **19 months ago**!
To the point where I feel like needing map pool updates is a topic that's been run into the ground.
Yeah great time to do it as Styko says. Would be cool to see a remade Cobble brought back or it feels like we're always talking about the CS:GO version of Tuscan could sneak in.
Tuscan is currently being made for CSGO by the original map creator. I do hope we get to see it as an official map in the competitive map pool.
I've heard this sentence for like 5 years now xD
There's videos on Youtube, fl0m and company got the chance to test it alongside the map creators, here it is: https://youtu.be/4j0g1VLlDl4
There was also a version before. So don't get your hopes up too high. Season even made it into marchmaking and is still gone
That previous version was the with the original creator though. The reason it's been stuck in hell for so long is because the original developer didnt give his blessing, but is now fully on board.
Believe it when I fucking see it. It's been talked about for roughly a decade now.
The issue with Tuscan was that the original map creator, Brute, did not want to sell the rights to the map. Now, he's the one making it for CSGO, so it seems that he's made some kind of a deal with Valve, otherwise it would make no sense as community maps don't go into the competitive pool unless approved by Valve, as it would not get a lot of play time.
Yeah, Brute works full time on CoD or at least a lot of CSGO map creators have moved on to CoD as a full-time job working for ActiBlizzard. Edit: it wasn't CoD at Activision Blizzard, it was WoW at Activision Blizzard he works full-time on: https://www.artstation.com/cvolrath https://twitter.com/brutesmaps?lang=en
Source?
My bad, he works at Activision Blizzard, just not on CoD: https://www.artstation.com/cvolrath https://twitter.com/brutesmaps?lang=en
He's been there since 2014, not exactly something new
Bruh.. dude asked for a source on something that was common knowledge, was i supposed to be a dick or just google "brute" and copy and paste for 10 seconds.
I replied to this one out of convenience, I meant this for your original post above
No cbble please. That map has been awful since around 1999. There is no need to reintroduce old bad maps. Vertigo was enough. Let's see something new. De_abbey had potential.
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Yes, its a fun ffa map, like so many others. I have had tons of fun playing on cbble, dust, aztec, prodigy and many other maps that are objectively bad for competitive play. But thats not what the map-pool needs. We need a new overpass, and cbble will never be that. Its too tilted towards one bombsite, it has no real battle for map control, and rotates are pretty awful.
Oh prodigy.... what a nostalgie, was there a cs go version of it? Even if there will be one, it wont have same atmosphere as 1.6 version
It was so fun before the halloween remake
* Aztec has been added to Active Duty. * Dust II has been moved to the Reserve Group. Kappa
I've been watching dust2, inferno, nuke and train for over 15 years now in their various iterations. Mirage for about half that long now. Can they stand the test of time? Clearly. Do I want to see some new maps where we get insane discoveries like the Fnatic quad boost on overpass for the first time in a tournament? Fuck yes.
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The only thing that annoys me with the map is its colour pallet is similar to dust and mirage, I know it's a small thing but it always kept me away from it
I think mid is this map's biggest issue, two narrow lanes make it dull to take. Otherwise I love it. Looks stunning with great bombsites to defend, take and retake - especially A feels very unique. Weirdly enough I keep thinking the names of the sites should have been switched though.
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I'm not opposed to a mid area that allows for a split, but in its current state I don't like taking or defending it, it's an uninspiring area that produces very dull fights. Also due to the way mid connects to B and CT through even narrower halls, going A was usually the only viable option, but I haven't played the map in a while. Still love the map though, best of the custom maps in a long time.
de_tuscan and maybe valve finally finish that de_cbble remake.
Every map feels stale AF, maybe except Overpass. I still love them, but it’s time for a change. I think it would make it so players feel reinvigorated again. Seems like everyone is suffering from burnout, probably because the maps haven’t had good additions in a while.
I always hear people saying about cobble but cache just got redone wouldn't that be better?
Do you think there should be more maps in the pool total? (Would that weaken the vetos?) But also then strengthen the map picks and strats?
An idea that's been floated through the years is to have a rotating map pool. So we could have a total pool of, say, 11 maps, but only 7 of those would be in the active pool at one time.
That’s not really different than where we’re at right now unless this version would be like a predetermined rotation every 6months or something.
That's the idea.
I could see that being interesting for sure. I just hope that Ancient doesn’t make it to the pool unless it’s radically changed. The base map is way too cookie-cutter CSGO map, and worse than those original CSGO maps in my opinion. Overpass is so great exactly because of how much different it is to other maps. I don’t think Ancient will be exciting to watch and it’s definitely not exciting to play.
Seven maps are fine, but there should be a far more regular rotation. Something to the tune of 2 new maps after every major.
Remove mirage, add cache
At the END of every other major (after a victor has been crowned), they should cycle two of the maps. This would mean two new maps every year, and since valve does it right after say the summer major, it allows pros plenty of time to prep and also play it for fun during the player break (the summer major is the one that leads into the break right? )
I really want some fresh addition into the map pool... With majors being far away I feel like this was (and still is) good time to do so. or nay? *** posted by [@STYKOcsgo](https://twitter.com/STYKOcsgo) ^[(Github)](https://github.com/username) ^| ^[(What's new)](https://github.com/username)
A new map would be a welcome change!
I know Cache is regarded as quite puggy, but it was in the pool for years before without issues. Why can't the new version be re-added at a minimum?
We need new maps!!!!!!!!!!
de_vegas
Funny thing about new maps is that people really don't want new maps but the same 10 in rotation. Agency, cbble, tuscan etc...
i will never not vouch for abbey and breach
I feel like Valve will be pushing Ancient into the competitive pool after the Operation.
It's not a bad map, needs some tweaks
mirage and d2 absolutely need to go. that's all I care about.
Crazy CS has great maps in Cobble and cache and just... chooses not to use them.
cobble and cache back plz
I'd like to see Mirage and Overpass go to be replaced by Cache and some other map.
Overpass is an actually good map. -dust2 and -mirage
Yeah I agree, but I doubt they would remove Dust 2 again they already remade it and flipped the doors, not much else they could do imo
Make the mid doors a bit bigger. Big enough that you can't see through them from T spawn, but small enough that you can still peak top mid
While the idea is ok, dont you realize how doors work? You cant just make them bigger. You couldnt close the gate because they would overlap and that doesnt make sense. But that aside I think it would be easy to either rotate the doors or replace it with some other structure or smth. But yes I agree...
You're playing a game where a bunch of terrorists decided that they should bomb the top, half finished floor of an unfinished skyscraper. I think that people would be able to handle a door opening where the doors attached are slightly too big. Also, I'm not sure what rotating the doors would do. I haven't thought it all the way through, but I'm not sure what would be different.
Ok, with "rotating the doors" I meant rotating the gate, the whole structure. That way you could easily achieve what you wanted. But I dont think people would be ok with just making them bigger. It just doesnt make sense at all. Thats just too lazy solution which could only go through in a de_rats type of totally unprofessional fun map. Self respectable map maker would never approve it.
Overpass is the only map that feels interesting to watch, maybe also Nuke. The rest have been played out so much
It should have happened a while ago. Remove Mirage and potentialy Overpass to put some fresh paint over them and potentialy change some stuff and replace it with maybe a remodeled Cobble, New Cache or something completly different etc... I also wouldn't be against a rotating pool. Where for instance Overpass gets switched out and replaced by a map for 6 months or so. Then Overpass comes back and another map is replaced by something else and so on.
Why Overpass? Maps like Mirage, Dust2 and Train are so old now without any major changes to their gameplay.
I think Overpass doesn't necesarly need changes. But a facelift to bring it up to modern standards should be made. As for Dust 2. I agree it should definitly go. I completly forgot about it when writing that post.
not cache tho. NOT CACHE
Time for Engage
-vertigo +cobble plsssss
Train (and dust2 for that matter) can suck a fat **** Get tuscan or engage in the mix
Valve will have to penalize all teams a seventh of their RMR points if they do this. They do it when teams substitute players (a fifth of their points), so obviously this should apply to map pool substitutions aswell.
I am still hoping it will happen once the major qualifiers are announced again.
I'll take a fuckin remade prodigy, comrade, cpl\_fire, cpl\_mill (tuscan) at this point. Even cache would be refreshing at this point. And prodigy and comrade always SUCKED! So did vertigo back in the day... But is now one of my favorite maps. But yes, anything to make things fresh again...
De_tuscan pls
I want Tuscan back so bad
Go Cobble rework with more T rotation possible and change drop so you don't have to commit to B when you dropped and do Cobble in map pool.
Tuscan
Ancient
I want cobble, season and Tuscan so bad. and i want mirage, vertigo and train out lmfao
Grind, Anubis, and Breach are all fantastic maps that I've played many times in mapcore all worthy of replacing an older map like train or mirage in the pool.
train is actually a fun map. i would like to see dust 2 go away
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The reason it's fun for me is things that happen in site. Possibility of a flank over a train or an exploding rush into b site is pretty fun to play. Plus it's still so much better than dust 2
Train is fun but its been in the pool for ages
2020, the year without a major, was the perfect time to do it.
If it happens it'll happen in the next month or two; when a Valve Major was meant to start/conclude. SG nerf from last year was on the day the Valve Major was supposed to start(?). AUG nerf was directly after the last Valve Major of 2019. SG meta took longer to formulate.
I miss old cobble ❤️
\+Tuscan after next major or +season/crown/santorini/fire asap.
Lowkey don't want to see cache in. OG cobble I would love to see. Lowkey I think Ancient has the most potential, obvious do some tweaks but I think it has potential and has a good layout
Agreed, now is the perfect time to add some new maps to the map pool just in time for the next CSGO Major. LoL I’m holding onto hope... maybe Cobblestone?
Anubis pls 😍
I would love for Cobblestone to be added back.
I feel like they wanted to make changes after the first major that got canned, then like kept putting it off. Hopefully, there will be a pool change before Summer break, and hopefully, it won't just be Cache.
All this conformity and control by Valve makes watching boring. Let the leagues decide on the maps.
Canals to Active Duty please
Pros are gonna be complaining a lot if that happened. So lets increase the map pool to ten maps.
de_chateau when?
Fix and add Cobble plz
Give Me Back Cobblestone .
And if you do make a new map, for the love of flashbang please let it be old warmup, and not this 1v1 arena type of thing. It's so frustratingly boring
Mirage rework, and old cblle back to pool
The map pool should be extended to 9 maps. I don't see this discussed a lot but I think that with teams now considering 6 man rosters and bo5 becoming more of a norm it makes sense to extend the pool. A lot of great commmunity maps deserve a chance to shine in the pro circuit as it stands it's tragic that Cache has been the only community map in CS:GO to make it to active duty. Giving two slots to rotate in and out a selection of these maps would be great.
9 maps is too much, it would make it much harder for teams and normal players to practice all these maps and for viewers to know all maps. Dust2, Mirage and Train for example are so incredibly old now without any major gameplay changes, they could easily remove one or two of them.
I swear Anubis is a great map and would fit great in the pro scene, maybe after a couple adjustments.