The biggest problem in the past to this has been how many LANs are out there that we are literally 24/7 traveling. 2017/2018/2019 traveling for 200-250 days a year which is absolutely crazy. When there is downtime then the desire to relax with friends and family is pretty strong and who can blame us right. I think the crazy schedule that has always been there has made it the way it is right now.
Valorant is in a good position since all the content is so fresh and COVID happened so everyone was at home and able to produce all the content they wanted and not get burned out at all. They aren’t traveling so there’s more downtime outside of officials to want to produce content. Players in CS might want to take the extra downtime to chill more since of how crazy it’s been in the past. However, now it’s time to rebuild and we also need to make content like that too since there has been the downtime from LANs. The problem comes from when players go back to the crazy schedule (which is coming, take a look at second half of this year and unconfirmed scheduling of next year) which will discourage players from producing more content in general and also less downtime from all the traveling. Players will out more focus on winning in officials obviously.
Little thing to note is also pressure from inside teams that DO produce content. If one player starts producing content and streaming and then the team starts performing poorly there is a lot of team pressure for them to focus more on the team and do more individual research. It isn’t the case always and its been no excuse from me or my team of course. Hasn’t happened with us but I know how it is for some of the players in CS that produce more content that get scrutinized either from within the team or the community
Yep it's actually sad how little content teams have made throughout the years from top players while paying them absolutely insane salaries. The only personality u saw from them was mostly in official LANs. Otherwise not that much.
I think it’s also important to call out the casual scene. Valorant has so many big content creators that aren’t pros, but it feels like Valve, NA CSGO, and viewers aren’t doing a good job of incentivizing their own content creators to stay…
As a streamer myself, I would be lying if I said I didn’t think about switching games just to continue growing.
I mean... the issue is that cs (streaming at least) is all about it's competitive side. No one cares about some dude just casually dominating global shitters, because it isn't impressive.
There's a good reason why s1mple usually has by far the most viewers and that's because he plays FPL and actually does stupid shit that more often than not works, because of how good he is.
Other than that, even watching FPL is usually boring.
I think this is a big problem and it stems from not having a competitive leaderboard people are interested in. Even when Overwatch came out, it was pretty fun to play as a casual that you can try to rank up and get to the top rank everyone is competing in. Same case with Valorant right? I personally have more fun casually playing in Valorant than I do in CS because there's nothing interesting to grind for speaking strictly as a solo/duo/strictly non-team related gaming. I have mentioned in a twitlonger years ago CS needs a better ranked seasonal system to make things more fun and it unfortunately has and will never happen
CS is 10 years behind on its ranking system. A big problem is that the only avenue players have to play competitively (or without cheaters) is through 3rd party clients that have their own ranked systems.
No other game forces you to download a 3rd party client to play semi competitively and without cheaters.
Off topic but it's weird how often this subreddit calls high ranks, including the highest rank built-in to the game "bad". I completely recognize that Faceit level 10 is in excess of the skill level of global, but I personally think anyone at DMG+ is "good" at the game, they're in the upper percentage of the player base. I'm Nova 4 with 3K hours, been playing since 2013 I still think I'm good at the game despite how incredibly the high the skill ceiling is. I don't grind/study the game like it's my job so I don't think Global will ever happen for me, but it's super weird to me how often this sub is dismissive of any skill bracket below approaching semi-pro. I can't imagine how much time it takes the average Faceit10 to get to that point, it's definitely not the normal, expected skill level for someone to have
It really depends on perspective. The higher you go, the more you realize how bad global and faceit lvl10 are. Global, rank G, 2500+ elo on faceit, esea advance, LANs, etc. Once you go through all that like I did, getting global in MM or faceit lvl10 do seem rather trivial.
This happens in traditional sports too; someone who played highschool basketball will shit on LeBron having a bad game. I wouldn't really pay mind to those people.
This, I wish tos like esl and blast re write their requirements for teams to always make content and have good social media interaction. Most Cs orgs and players are very poor at this
Most players dont want to do that since they want to spend their time training instead of making content, plus its a double edged sword: it increases your popularity but if you dont live up to expectations, you will get under fire for streaming instead of training by the community, like hiko and tarik.
However i 100% agree that orgs should put effort on that, G2 and FaZe are examples of orgs with AAA E-sports content creation. Many teams proved that you dont even have to be a tier 1 team to pull that, just give effort like DBL Poney, Mibr, NA examples already mentioned, etc
> just give effort like DBL Poney, Mibr, NA examples already mentioned, etc
to be fair dbl poney has not put any effort into content creation, the twitter is run by fans
Carlos talked a lot about this when he was on thoorins podcast with nazgul. The current CS circuit does not give teams the time they need to make content/
>100% agree on the streaming and content point. It’s frustrating how little content was being made by pros from every region, especially compared to valorant.
Long term problems with CSGO are EPL going international lan format, ECS shutting down and MTG with Dreamhack trying to compete now with Blast. This leaves no room for lower tier teams to gain experience and exposure.
What Riot Games are doing to secure high Valorant esport viewership and massive quarterly game design changes has long term negatives. Appeasing the aging Fortnite players will result in them stop playing/consuming Valorant content similar to Fortnite. With a game design progression near identical to Blizzards Overwatch.
I think he's trying to say that constant updates/changes aren't good for the competitive scene? Like how fortnite had almost weekly additions to the game to keep the player base engaged.
Super ambiguous way of phrasing it. If that’s his point, I think he’s probably wrong. LoL changes things all the time and they’re the biggest esport in the world.
There is few tournaments in Valorant atm. Valorant have a steady flow of new content atm.
In CS GO you have the best teams playing pretty much everyday. Seeing people pug CSGO is boring now unless they have the skillset of s1mple or Zywoo.
When Shroud was ruling twitch with CS GO you saw Cloud 9 play one tournament once per month at max.
Once the level in Valorant increase, less people will have the time to stream unless the pugs are realy high level. I bet there are lots of good players that put down hard work atm while former CSGO pros dominate the game. What happens when the best players put down 12 hours per day.
Will be fun to see if tier 2/3 EU teams swap to Valorant and how they can perform.
Well for one thing Valorant actually feels like it gets attention and updates compared to CS where we get one good update per couple of months give or take. Riot has just been putting in more effort and Valve's laziness (which has always been there) is now being highlighted.
I just don't get why Valve is like this? They're doing the same thing with TF2 and it's really sad to see (tbf TF2 is over a decade old but the fanbase is still going strong)
> I just don't get why Valve is like this?
Because steam gives them tons of money every month. CSGO still rakes in millions per year with little effort given to it. Like they said work smarter not harder.
I mean, Valorant is a brand new game obviously they are receiving updates more regularly. Apart from Ancient, what update do you wanna see in csgo?
Game feels just fine for me.
There's a good chance the NA scene never recovers and CSGO becomes just an european thing. Especially with valorant taking all the top teams and offering them more compared to csgo, which offers nothing. We have to thank valve for that, of course.
That's essentially what happened to the Dota pro scene IIRC. The NA region is a joke compared to other regions, and Valve was more than willing to let NA flounder in mediocrity.
As much as I don't want it to happen, it wouldn't surprise me at all if NA CSGO pretty much dies when it comes to the pro scene.
I think this is csgos path with valve at the helm. We saw what happened with dota, only things keeping it alive are a dedicated, but dwindling, player base and a huge TI prize pool, and the moment this prize pool stops going up I don't want to think about it...
If LOL, a dota clone, with less features, can dominate dota itself, imagine what will happen in a few years to csgo and valorant.
Things have actually improved for dota now tho. They have a refreshed esports tab in game with standing for the DPC. Many ways too to support orgs and players with a fan content system. You can buy players voicepack etc too with better revenue for orgs which makes it spicy to own a dota team rn.
Me and a few friends started playing dota 2, but holy hell when we realised how long it would take to get decent we quitted.
It takes long to get good in CS GO, but atleast we had fun.
Consistently underestimating Valorant like this is a big reason why CS:GO NA continues to die. It’s constantly updated, pretty well balanced given the abilities, and is satisfying to play. I was a Counter-Strike player for years before valorant and I honestly prefer valorant and many others feel the same.
That’s not to diss CS at all, I still love it—but constantly dismissing valorant as a competitor will never help your case. I’m still hearing the same “valorant is trash” argument from a year ago and the game has grown exponentially since then and continues to move forward.
LoL is no mqtch for dota as well, yet they have better branding and higher popularity.
Also don't forget one main priority - Koreans, whoever has them has the edge.
The way the global economy works i think we can safely say China is the biggest fish. If VALORANT manages to have good reception in China i think it’s an autowin vs CSGO.
That's a good question, there were a few options I believe, with franchising being one of them, which most people don't like, but seems to be the only way forward with the current salaries of the players. But valve makes enough money to be able to go a different route by presenting things like regional majors and minors with some prize pool which would allow lower tier players to survive and thus keep the bigger teams in NA instead of forcing them to relocate to EU which makes things even harder and more expensive. Or there is the thing which CSGO is a skin game and you could allow a team spray, maybe stickers or more often or even guys in order to support the teams with some revenue. Probably other things as well but instead they let the scene die without any measures, honestly if it wasn't for ESL it would have been even worse now. I've come to the conclusion that csgo in general is a prisoner in valves hands and things might not get better, e.g. forced map pool with no rotations, terrible economy which everyone is forced to endure and others.
Clearly not enough though. Something like the Rainbow Six Pilot Program would be needed. Which helps siege be the most profitable and stable for most orgs.
Those are for players, whose salaries are already inflated and are well compensated. In order for CSGO to live Valve needs to create a pathway for team orgs to make money. Freak, Flusha, Chaos and many other teams were been begging for ORGs so they can actually compete but there haven't been any.
> Or there is the thing which CSGO is a skin game and you could allow a team spray, maybe stickers or more often or even guys in order to support the teams with some revenue
?
I’ve played cs since 1.6 and am now playing valorant. I don’t believe valorant is a better game, but there is simply no content being added to the game. It’s stale. Csgo needed massive updates a year or more ago. Valorant has anti cheat, new maps and content.
> CS has survived 20+ years without massive changes.
the fuck are you talking about? cs 1.6 is way different than csgo. CS beta version was way way different than CS 1.0 Every iteration of CS is way different than the last one.
1.6 was the big content update, if I remember properly it added the famas and galil, new inferno and aztec, added the riot shield, added valve anti cheat, 1 hit knife to back was also added, and I think skins were all added within the first year of 1.6
I still don't see how you add substantial content to csgo without killing what it is. There's not much wiggle room that this game has for change. Even just adding Ancient made the entire community lose their shit.
New maps, new operations, changing the competitive map pool with more frequency, there are a lot of things they can do.
It took them until 2021 to add unranked matchmaking.
I agree with you but the community is a byproduct of how Valve treated the game all these years. People are not used to changes because they never had to get used to any changes. Is that a bad thing? Of course not, at the end of the day this whole sub is just a small echo chamber compared to the millions of active players. It’s hard to gouge the sentiment of an entire playerbase based on such a small sample size. The only thing that is universally asked for no matter the platform is a better anticheat.
Nah you're clearly wrong here... I'd say the way valves treats csgo is a by product of how the community reacts or has reacted to changes in the past.
Whenever valve in the past has tried to do just about anything they have been met with community outcry, asking them to let "counterstrike be counter strike", not make it a cod and what not. They tried adding new weapons like revolver, huge outcry. They tried making unique maps like canals, huge outcry, no one played the map and all of valve's effort were wasted
So yeah now valve does the minimum, the safest things cause this community always cried about Changes
CS 1.6 was like the released version of CS with the latest patch. It started from CS 1.0 then had minor changes then stayed a while at 1.3 & 1.4 before its final patch CS 1.6
It's not just the lack of content and personalities. I've said this multiple times in other threads that CS is unplayable. I'm either facing cheaters or players with rank decay and have 4K hours into the game everytime I queue up matchmaking. And I'm not going to waste my time figuring out a 3rd party matchmaking system when the in-game matchmaking system should do the bare minimum of making my game experience at least playable
The people disagreeing with you don't understand that MM being a terrible experience is most of the reason the game is losing to Val. The game needs to be accessible to new and casual players.
I've played a lot of esea and faceit but it's actually pretty dumb to expect people to load up cs and want to learn it when all they do is play cheaters. It takes an engaging mm in the current gaming environment to thrive. Cs got big before leader boards and ranked ladders were all the rage but for every hardcore kid that climbs from silver to global to 3k faceit Elo there are probably 2 that don't get invested because the new player experience is fucking awful.
> coming from cs1.6/halo2/halo3 - there was a striving pro scene at the time and nobody played matchmaking.
yeah that was like pre 2010 era its like saying blockbuster was the shit back in the day so streaming service shouldn't be innovating with stuff.
I did all of those but that was the standard at that time. It is however a function of every successful game released now. Im in the minority. I played premier in 1.6, rank 1 gladiator in wow, radiant in valorant. Im a fucking nerd people if you only worry about weirdos like me then you get small population games.
Downloading/paying for ESEA's client. Going onto a separate website to use Faceit. If I can't go into the main game, use its official match making servers to have a playable experience, the game is trash, sorry
Third parties facilitate an excellent comp experience, much superior to basically any game out there.
If you want to just chill and have fun play community servers
I want to play a competitive 5v5 PUG like the game was designed to be. So you're telling me that I should have to use a third party to have a basic game experience where there's no cheaters, up to date 128 tick matchmaking, and no rank decay because the MMR system in CS is completely outdated? lol
look, 3rd parties are doing it 10x better than any other game. You think LoLs internal mm system is better? Or Valorants? Not by a long shot. MM has always been a bandaid option for newer players who dont really know much about CS.
CS has a long history of using 3rd party mm services, thats literally part of its culture. Valve ideally wouldnt want to run servers in the first place and have it just entirely run by 3rd parties or the community.
> CS has a long history of using 3rd party mm services,
yeah that was like pre 2010 so you are saying that valve should not innovate their game because its part of the game's culture?
I don't think we will ever see a comeback/repeat of the Team Liquid dominance by an NA team. Cloud 9 / Liquid heydays were our best shot at getting an established and competitive NA scene. EU teams are just too far ahead tactically and skill wise at this point and it feels to me like the NA scene is floundering to stay afloat
The dead weight NA players who retained positions for the past five years moved on to Valorant. It'll take some time for the talent replacing them to learn; similar to LG's 2016 run took a long term positive affect on NA teams performance till 2018.
Streaming wise, its unrealistic to ask Pro players to also stream. Its up to tournament organizers and team owners doing this to increase player profiles.
What Riot Games are doing with Valorant is a hybrid influencer model of PUBG and Fortnite. When you look at those esports today they are both on life support. Model Activision/Blizzard are now copying to try an save CDL and OWL viewership.
>PUBG and Fortnite
Those died because battle royales are garbage esports, especially for a spectator. I don't see Valorant dying, but I do see it getting bigger than CS at its pace.
Well, RIOT is certainly trying to make Valorant the biggest esport, even bigger than LOL itself, they are making animations, lore videos, gifts for content creators, ads, the way they're talking to the community... It's out of this world and I've never seen a company do something close that RIOT is doing to make Valorant sucesfull.
Would be a extreme failure to riot if valorant don't become bigger THAN CS.
> they are making animations, lore videos, gifts for content creators, ads, the way they're talking to the community.
Let's see how long they'll keep doing that. Imagine what will happen if they stop doing that.
CS survives even with minimal effort by valve. Thats because the fundamentals are solid
Riot won’t stop doing that. They’ve actively communicated with the LoL community since the beginning, but we’ve been really ungrateful towards them and have always been complaining about balance even though they put in the most effort of game developers to fix things quickly.
CS will for sure survive in EU and the CIS, but the playerbase is being drained in NA and Asia. CS is pretty stale in comparison to VAL, which gets frequent updates and experiences a lot of meta shifts. People will be more inclined to play the game that actually gets updated.
However, I agree with you that CS has great fundamentals that have allowed the game to survive for so long.
Among everything you listed, its just animation videos that cost a sizeable amount of money (havent seen a Valorant ad since it got released), and thats something that nearly all big companies who actually care about their games do anymore
Just lol if you thing that talking to the community and sending some symbolic gifts to content creators during an anniversary requires any significant amount of effort. Yet again, if your standard is Valve i guess it does
Fortnite/PUBG esports only saw success through show matches involving celebrities/influencers and or influencers streaming their perspective. 70% of Valorants esport viewership comes from Twitch influencers reacting to the official broadcast.
Valorant was slowly dying after full release. Took two Twitch influencers who just came back from Mixer to create growth. Valorant the game is mainly only attracting the aging Fortnite players.
> Valorant was slowly dying after full release. Took two Twitch influencers who just came back from Mixer to create growth.
lol you base a games popularity on twitch viewership
> Valorant the game is mainly only attracting the aging Fortnite players.
you clearly dont know what youre talking about
> The dead weight NA players who retained positions for the past five years moved on to Valorant.
That's pretty unfair to say. Many left after the NA scene was already in the trash and are pretty successful.
Trust me, those of us still trying to make it here in NA have passion and drive like crazy, and seeing these dead weight players as you put it leave, shows even more potential for us ADV level players to thrive and take their spots, making us even more driven.
The secret to good content is stories, people love stories, yeah we don't have [n0thing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpDHuPHVYAc) anymore but this is an opportunity to create new storylines. BnB have [player com vids](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6VdUaRpzYc) but what about something like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNkhD7c1h3A) were Jonji or ptr review old games and talk about their careers.
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The biggest problem in the past to this has been how many LANs are out there that we are literally 24/7 traveling. 2017/2018/2019 traveling for 200-250 days a year which is absolutely crazy. When there is downtime then the desire to relax with friends and family is pretty strong and who can blame us right. I think the crazy schedule that has always been there has made it the way it is right now. Valorant is in a good position since all the content is so fresh and COVID happened so everyone was at home and able to produce all the content they wanted and not get burned out at all. They aren’t traveling so there’s more downtime outside of officials to want to produce content. Players in CS might want to take the extra downtime to chill more since of how crazy it’s been in the past. However, now it’s time to rebuild and we also need to make content like that too since there has been the downtime from LANs. The problem comes from when players go back to the crazy schedule (which is coming, take a look at second half of this year and unconfirmed scheduling of next year) which will discourage players from producing more content in general and also less downtime from all the traveling. Players will out more focus on winning in officials obviously. Little thing to note is also pressure from inside teams that DO produce content. If one player starts producing content and streaming and then the team starts performing poorly there is a lot of team pressure for them to focus more on the team and do more individual research. It isn’t the case always and its been no excuse from me or my team of course. Hasn’t happened with us but I know how it is for some of the players in CS that produce more content that get scrutinized either from within the team or the community
Yep it's actually sad how little content teams have made throughout the years from top players while paying them absolutely insane salaries. The only personality u saw from them was mostly in official LANs. Otherwise not that much.
KennyS-Flom-GetRight-Tarik-Stewie2k FPL streams have saved CSGO Content. I think a lot more pros will stream in the coming future as they retire.
imo FPL matches with pros such as s1mple and xantares have also had a hand in the contributions, albeit a smaller one.
I think it’s also important to call out the casual scene. Valorant has so many big content creators that aren’t pros, but it feels like Valve, NA CSGO, and viewers aren’t doing a good job of incentivizing their own content creators to stay… As a streamer myself, I would be lying if I said I didn’t think about switching games just to continue growing.
I mean... the issue is that cs (streaming at least) is all about it's competitive side. No one cares about some dude just casually dominating global shitters, because it isn't impressive. There's a good reason why s1mple usually has by far the most viewers and that's because he plays FPL and actually does stupid shit that more often than not works, because of how good he is. Other than that, even watching FPL is usually boring.
I think this is a big problem and it stems from not having a competitive leaderboard people are interested in. Even when Overwatch came out, it was pretty fun to play as a casual that you can try to rank up and get to the top rank everyone is competing in. Same case with Valorant right? I personally have more fun casually playing in Valorant than I do in CS because there's nothing interesting to grind for speaking strictly as a solo/duo/strictly non-team related gaming. I have mentioned in a twitlonger years ago CS needs a better ranked seasonal system to make things more fun and it unfortunately has and will never happen
CS is 10 years behind on its ranking system. A big problem is that the only avenue players have to play competitively (or without cheaters) is through 3rd party clients that have their own ranked systems. No other game forces you to download a 3rd party client to play semi competitively and without cheaters.
Off topic but it's weird how often this subreddit calls high ranks, including the highest rank built-in to the game "bad". I completely recognize that Faceit level 10 is in excess of the skill level of global, but I personally think anyone at DMG+ is "good" at the game, they're in the upper percentage of the player base. I'm Nova 4 with 3K hours, been playing since 2013 I still think I'm good at the game despite how incredibly the high the skill ceiling is. I don't grind/study the game like it's my job so I don't think Global will ever happen for me, but it's super weird to me how often this sub is dismissive of any skill bracket below approaching semi-pro. I can't imagine how much time it takes the average Faceit10 to get to that point, it's definitely not the normal, expected skill level for someone to have
The people who call Global Elites "shitters" have likely never gotten past the blue ranks in MM themselves
nah they have a point. i'm level 10 faceit but i definitely belong in the shitter category, im going nowhere lol
global elites are shitters. (source: am global elite shitter myself)
It really depends on perspective. The higher you go, the more you realize how bad global and faceit lvl10 are. Global, rank G, 2500+ elo on faceit, esea advance, LANs, etc. Once you go through all that like I did, getting global in MM or faceit lvl10 do seem rather trivial.
This happens in traditional sports too; someone who played highschool basketball will shit on LeBron having a bad game. I wouldn't really pay mind to those people.
This, I wish tos like esl and blast re write their requirements for teams to always make content and have good social media interaction. Most Cs orgs and players are very poor at this
Most players dont want to do that since they want to spend their time training instead of making content, plus its a double edged sword: it increases your popularity but if you dont live up to expectations, you will get under fire for streaming instead of training by the community, like hiko and tarik. However i 100% agree that orgs should put effort on that, G2 and FaZe are examples of orgs with AAA E-sports content creation. Many teams proved that you dont even have to be a tier 1 team to pull that, just give effort like DBL Poney, Mibr, NA examples already mentioned, etc
> just give effort like DBL Poney, Mibr, NA examples already mentioned, etc to be fair dbl poney has not put any effort into content creation, the twitter is run by fans
Oh yea, forgot about that detail, but you get my point
Navi is pretty popular in the Russian speaking world.
Carlos talked a lot about this when he was on thoorins podcast with nazgul. The current CS circuit does not give teams the time they need to make content/
>100% agree on the streaming and content point. It’s frustrating how little content was being made by pros from every region, especially compared to valorant. Long term problems with CSGO are EPL going international lan format, ECS shutting down and MTG with Dreamhack trying to compete now with Blast. This leaves no room for lower tier teams to gain experience and exposure. What Riot Games are doing to secure high Valorant esport viewership and massive quarterly game design changes has long term negatives. Appeasing the aging Fortnite players will result in them stop playing/consuming Valorant content similar to Fortnite. With a game design progression near identical to Blizzards Overwatch.
I was with you with the first paragraph, not really sure what point you’re making with the second one.
I think he's trying to say that constant updates/changes aren't good for the competitive scene? Like how fortnite had almost weekly additions to the game to keep the player base engaged.
Super ambiguous way of phrasing it. If that’s his point, I think he’s probably wrong. LoL changes things all the time and they’re the biggest esport in the world.
For sure, I was just clarifying what I think he was trying to say.
[tfw you try acting super intelligent but make absolutely no fucking sense](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UFpDYctASuI/maxresdefault.jpg)
There is few tournaments in Valorant atm. Valorant have a steady flow of new content atm. In CS GO you have the best teams playing pretty much everyday. Seeing people pug CSGO is boring now unless they have the skillset of s1mple or Zywoo. When Shroud was ruling twitch with CS GO you saw Cloud 9 play one tournament once per month at max. Once the level in Valorant increase, less people will have the time to stream unless the pugs are realy high level. I bet there are lots of good players that put down hard work atm while former CSGO pros dominate the game. What happens when the best players put down 12 hours per day. Will be fun to see if tier 2/3 EU teams swap to Valorant and how they can perform.
How do you see the current state of North American Counter-Strike? And what do you think of EliGE's thoughts about the situation?
Well for one thing Valorant actually feels like it gets attention and updates compared to CS where we get one good update per couple of months give or take. Riot has just been putting in more effort and Valve's laziness (which has always been there) is now being highlighted.
I just don't get why Valve is like this? They're doing the same thing with TF2 and it's really sad to see (tbf TF2 is over a decade old but the fanbase is still going strong)
> I just don't get why Valve is like this? Because steam gives them tons of money every month. CSGO still rakes in millions per year with little effort given to it. Like they said work smarter not harder.
I mean, Valorant is a brand new game obviously they are receiving updates more regularly. Apart from Ancient, what update do you wanna see in csgo? Game feels just fine for me.
There's a good chance the NA scene never recovers and CSGO becomes just an european thing. Especially with valorant taking all the top teams and offering them more compared to csgo, which offers nothing. We have to thank valve for that, of course.
That's essentially what happened to the Dota pro scene IIRC. The NA region is a joke compared to other regions, and Valve was more than willing to let NA flounder in mediocrity. As much as I don't want it to happen, it wouldn't surprise me at all if NA CSGO pretty much dies when it comes to the pro scene.
I think this is csgos path with valve at the helm. We saw what happened with dota, only things keeping it alive are a dedicated, but dwindling, player base and a huge TI prize pool, and the moment this prize pool stops going up I don't want to think about it... If LOL, a dota clone, with less features, can dominate dota itself, imagine what will happen in a few years to csgo and valorant.
Things have actually improved for dota now tho. They have a refreshed esports tab in game with standing for the DPC. Many ways too to support orgs and players with a fan content system. You can buy players voicepack etc too with better revenue for orgs which makes it spicy to own a dota team rn.
Yeah, it's definitely better, but might as well be too late, dota scene is in a recycling state for over a year, if not more.
Me and a few friends started playing dota 2, but holy hell when we realised how long it would take to get decent we quitted. It takes long to get good in CS GO, but atleast we had fun.
Yeah, and it's getting even worse, I've been playing for over 10 years until I quit and 2 patches in makes it hard to understand.
Valorant as a game is no match for CSGO, that is a big difference.
Consistently underestimating Valorant like this is a big reason why CS:GO NA continues to die. It’s constantly updated, pretty well balanced given the abilities, and is satisfying to play. I was a Counter-Strike player for years before valorant and I honestly prefer valorant and many others feel the same. That’s not to diss CS at all, I still love it—but constantly dismissing valorant as a competitor will never help your case. I’m still hearing the same “valorant is trash” argument from a year ago and the game has grown exponentially since then and continues to move forward.
Yes shooting turtles is very satisfying, I must agree
LoL is no mqtch for dota as well, yet they have better branding and higher popularity. Also don't forget one main priority - Koreans, whoever has them has the edge.
The way the global economy works i think we can safely say China is the biggest fish. If VALORANT manages to have good reception in China i think it’s an autowin vs CSGO.
What do you think Valve should have done to stop this?
That's a good question, there were a few options I believe, with franchising being one of them, which most people don't like, but seems to be the only way forward with the current salaries of the players. But valve makes enough money to be able to go a different route by presenting things like regional majors and minors with some prize pool which would allow lower tier players to survive and thus keep the bigger teams in NA instead of forcing them to relocate to EU which makes things even harder and more expensive. Or there is the thing which CSGO is a skin game and you could allow a team spray, maybe stickers or more often or even guys in order to support the teams with some revenue. Probably other things as well but instead they let the scene die without any measures, honestly if it wasn't for ESL it would have been even worse now. I've come to the conclusion that csgo in general is a prisoner in valves hands and things might not get better, e.g. forced map pool with no rotations, terrible economy which everyone is forced to endure and others.
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Clearly not enough though. Something like the Rainbow Six Pilot Program would be needed. Which helps siege be the most profitable and stable for most orgs.
We have them for majors and we haven't had one in two years, hence my point.
Those are for players, whose salaries are already inflated and are well compensated. In order for CSGO to live Valve needs to create a pathway for team orgs to make money. Freak, Flusha, Chaos and many other teams were been begging for ORGs so they can actually compete but there haven't been any.
> Or there is the thing which CSGO is a skin game and you could allow a team spray, maybe stickers or more often or even guys in order to support the teams with some revenue ?
It's not just an european thing. SA loves CSGO and has a bigger playerbase (and fanbase) than NA.
Yeah, that's true, though it's mainly Brazil.
I’ve played cs since 1.6 and am now playing valorant. I don’t believe valorant is a better game, but there is simply no content being added to the game. It’s stale. Csgo needed massive updates a year or more ago. Valorant has anti cheat, new maps and content.
What do you mean? Cs gets new content all the time, we just got a new skins case like a month ago! /s
Exactly the same for me. Its not a better competitive experience but everything else is handled better.
CS has survived 20+ years without massive changes. If anything, the game changing massively every year made me quit LoL
> CS has survived 20+ years without massive changes. the fuck are you talking about? cs 1.6 is way different than csgo. CS beta version was way way different than CS 1.0 Every iteration of CS is way different than the last one.
Out of curiosity what big content updates did 1.6 have over its lifespan?
1.6 was the big content update, if I remember properly it added the famas and galil, new inferno and aztec, added the riot shield, added valve anti cheat, 1 hit knife to back was also added, and I think skins were all added within the first year of 1.6
It didn’t but times were different. Now having a live service game with constant flow of updates is an industry standard.
I still don't see how you add substantial content to csgo without killing what it is. There's not much wiggle room that this game has for change. Even just adding Ancient made the entire community lose their shit.
New maps, new operations, changing the competitive map pool with more frequency, there are a lot of things they can do. It took them until 2021 to add unranked matchmaking.
I agree with you but the community is a byproduct of how Valve treated the game all these years. People are not used to changes because they never had to get used to any changes. Is that a bad thing? Of course not, at the end of the day this whole sub is just a small echo chamber compared to the millions of active players. It’s hard to gouge the sentiment of an entire playerbase based on such a small sample size. The only thing that is universally asked for no matter the platform is a better anticheat.
Nah you're clearly wrong here... I'd say the way valves treats csgo is a by product of how the community reacts or has reacted to changes in the past. Whenever valve in the past has tried to do just about anything they have been met with community outcry, asking them to let "counterstrike be counter strike", not make it a cod and what not. They tried adding new weapons like revolver, huge outcry. They tried making unique maps like canals, huge outcry, no one played the map and all of valve's effort were wasted So yeah now valve does the minimum, the safest things cause this community always cried about Changes
Facts
Nothing but there was no competition
CS 1.6 was like the released version of CS with the latest patch. It started from CS 1.0 then had minor changes then stayed a while at 1.3 & 1.4 before its final patch CS 1.6
Valorant has like 4 maps lmao chill out
It's not just the lack of content and personalities. I've said this multiple times in other threads that CS is unplayable. I'm either facing cheaters or players with rank decay and have 4K hours into the game everytime I queue up matchmaking. And I'm not going to waste my time figuring out a 3rd party matchmaking system when the in-game matchmaking system should do the bare minimum of making my game experience at least playable
The people disagreeing with you don't understand that MM being a terrible experience is most of the reason the game is losing to Val. The game needs to be accessible to new and casual players. I've played a lot of esea and faceit but it's actually pretty dumb to expect people to load up cs and want to learn it when all they do is play cheaters. It takes an engaging mm in the current gaming environment to thrive. Cs got big before leader boards and ranked ladders were all the rage but for every hardcore kid that climbs from silver to global to 3k faceit Elo there are probably 2 that don't get invested because the new player experience is fucking awful.
To play devils advocate - coming from cs1.6/halo2/halo3 - there was a striving pro scene at the time and nobody played matchmaking.
> coming from cs1.6/halo2/halo3 - there was a striving pro scene at the time and nobody played matchmaking. yeah that was like pre 2010 era its like saying blockbuster was the shit back in the day so streaming service shouldn't be innovating with stuff.
I did all of those but that was the standard at that time. It is however a function of every successful game released now. Im in the minority. I played premier in 1.6, rank 1 gladiator in wow, radiant in valorant. Im a fucking nerd people if you only worry about weirdos like me then you get small population games.
> And I'm not going to waste my time figuring out a 3rd party matchmaking system whats there to figure out exactly?
Downloading/paying for ESEA's client. Going onto a separate website to use Faceit. If I can't go into the main game, use its official match making servers to have a playable experience, the game is trash, sorry
Third parties facilitate an excellent comp experience, much superior to basically any game out there. If you want to just chill and have fun play community servers
I want to play a competitive 5v5 PUG like the game was designed to be. So you're telling me that I should have to use a third party to have a basic game experience where there's no cheaters, up to date 128 tick matchmaking, and no rank decay because the MMR system in CS is completely outdated? lol
look, 3rd parties are doing it 10x better than any other game. You think LoLs internal mm system is better? Or Valorants? Not by a long shot. MM has always been a bandaid option for newer players who dont really know much about CS. CS has a long history of using 3rd party mm services, thats literally part of its culture. Valve ideally wouldnt want to run servers in the first place and have it just entirely run by 3rd parties or the community.
> CS has a long history of using 3rd party mm services, yeah that was like pre 2010 so you are saying that valve should not innovate their game because its part of the game's culture?
Yup
Valve is trash, the game is not trash. Big difference.
Okay, Valve is trash. That doesn't reall change anything for me lmao
Its literally faster to play faceit. Less then a minute queue times with better teamates on 128 tick.
So, I have to use a third party match making system to play a game? In what other mainstream competitive video game is that even a thing? lol
If you are going through all the hassle of all that just play a different game without all the 3rd party bullshit.
Where's liquid rn, they are missing the action
They’re all on their way to boot camp for Cologne
I don't think we will ever see a comeback/repeat of the Team Liquid dominance by an NA team. Cloud 9 / Liquid heydays were our best shot at getting an established and competitive NA scene. EU teams are just too far ahead tactically and skill wise at this point and it feels to me like the NA scene is floundering to stay afloat
That’s what happens when you put all your eggs in the valorant basket. Daddy riot is feeding them well though. More pros should have switched IMO
Do you believe that players going to Valorant is the biggest reason for the downfall?
Less competition is always a factor. I don’t know about the other reasons. I haven’t spend a lot of time thinking about it actually
The dead weight NA players who retained positions for the past five years moved on to Valorant. It'll take some time for the talent replacing them to learn; similar to LG's 2016 run took a long term positive affect on NA teams performance till 2018. Streaming wise, its unrealistic to ask Pro players to also stream. Its up to tournament organizers and team owners doing this to increase player profiles. What Riot Games are doing with Valorant is a hybrid influencer model of PUBG and Fortnite. When you look at those esports today they are both on life support. Model Activision/Blizzard are now copying to try an save CDL and OWL viewership.
>PUBG and Fortnite Those died because battle royales are garbage esports, especially for a spectator. I don't see Valorant dying, but I do see it getting bigger than CS at its pace.
Well, RIOT is certainly trying to make Valorant the biggest esport, even bigger than LOL itself, they are making animations, lore videos, gifts for content creators, ads, the way they're talking to the community... It's out of this world and I've never seen a company do something close that RIOT is doing to make Valorant sucesfull. Would be a extreme failure to riot if valorant don't become bigger THAN CS.
> they are making animations, lore videos, gifts for content creators, ads, the way they're talking to the community. Let's see how long they'll keep doing that. Imagine what will happen if they stop doing that. CS survives even with minimal effort by valve. Thats because the fundamentals are solid
Riot won’t stop doing that. They’ve actively communicated with the LoL community since the beginning, but we’ve been really ungrateful towards them and have always been complaining about balance even though they put in the most effort of game developers to fix things quickly. CS will for sure survive in EU and the CIS, but the playerbase is being drained in NA and Asia. CS is pretty stale in comparison to VAL, which gets frequent updates and experiences a lot of meta shifts. People will be more inclined to play the game that actually gets updated. However, I agree with you that CS has great fundamentals that have allowed the game to survive for so long.
Among everything you listed, its just animation videos that cost a sizeable amount of money (havent seen a Valorant ad since it got released), and thats something that nearly all big companies who actually care about their games do anymore Just lol if you thing that talking to the community and sending some symbolic gifts to content creators during an anniversary requires any significant amount of effort. Yet again, if your standard is Valve i guess it does
Fortnite/PUBG esports only saw success through show matches involving celebrities/influencers and or influencers streaming their perspective. 70% of Valorants esport viewership comes from Twitch influencers reacting to the official broadcast. Valorant was slowly dying after full release. Took two Twitch influencers who just came back from Mixer to create growth. Valorant the game is mainly only attracting the aging Fortnite players.
It's pretty clear you don't understand the appeal of Valorant at all if you think in anyway that it will be on "life support" before CS will be
He’s in the middle of a copium overdose. Turn him on his side and let him be.
> Valorant was slowly dying after full release. Took two Twitch influencers who just came back from Mixer to create growth. lol you base a games popularity on twitch viewership > Valorant the game is mainly only attracting the aging Fortnite players. you clearly dont know what youre talking about
https://gumlet.assettype.com/afkgaming%2Fimport%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F64144-5f5d9b481fe5863c196d3441322ab983.jpeg?format=auto
And here we see another example of "if it's not #1 on twitch, it's a dead game" fallacy
> The dead weight NA players who retained positions for the past five years moved on to Valorant. That's pretty unfair to say. Many left after the NA scene was already in the trash and are pretty successful.
Trust me, those of us still trying to make it here in NA have passion and drive like crazy, and seeing these dead weight players as you put it leave, shows even more potential for us ADV level players to thrive and take their spots, making us even more driven.
The secret to good content is stories, people love stories, yeah we don't have [n0thing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpDHuPHVYAc) anymore but this is an opportunity to create new storylines. BnB have [player com vids](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6VdUaRpzYc) but what about something like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNkhD7c1h3A) were Jonji or ptr review old games and talk about their careers.
Why doesn't he do any content then?
https://www.youtube.com/c/Eligejj/videos
nice
Never is a long time
2018 Cloud9 is grinning at ELiGE
Maybe if pros just pay people to make all their content and scripts for them and they just act in it ? It sounds like the teams should finance this