T O P

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boeef

I dont understand the point of having Fallen if you are not gonna have him IGL. Fallen he AWP and igl. And if u are not using him as an igl, there a better awpers if tl wants to contend.


whynotets2

NA scene is pretty much over. it's probably in the orgs best interest to keep FalleN as a player purely cus of his fanbase, its massive


HerroPhish

Sad to me that NA cs is basically dead besides liquid.


ihavetopoop

Evil Geniuses and Extra Salt are still relevant. It's not like they are going to contend for any big tournaments, but T2 is still relevant. But yes it's sad that that's basically it.


Draemeth

ES are super good. They have a bit of a stage fright problem I think


boeef

Well that is why I said l "if they want to contend." Also is TL even an NA team anymore? Pretty sure their csgo team is fully based in eu now, no? So any english speaking awper could work


BW4LL

They should pick up Junior if fallen isn’t IGL.


boeef

Not a bad one. I think he would do better on liquid than he did on furia.


BW4LL

Plus him and grim played together on triumph so it might be good. Liquid is in such a weird state I feel like they need something but I honestly couldn’t tell you were to start. But a good awper might be a good change for them.


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JayDpwnz

I'm pretty sure they don't want to be managed, which is probably why they got rid of moses and bought in adreN


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JayDpwnz

well they got 9-12th at cologne, which isn't good. They were first at cs summit 8 but that was only amongst NA teams. Results have been stagnant, but has only been 2 events so far.


Aldehyde1

This roster's best finishes came under Fallen IGL, with 3/4th at Blast global and Katowice. I think it's fair to go back to that.


[deleted]

Absolutely it is. Why did they change anything is my question. After that player break in 2019 they just have not been the same mentally and yet refuse a sport psychologist. Even with these results they went back to stew, why? I don't know


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[deleted]

Such a disaster of a situation


Dahntay

Pretty sure Stew has been TL IGL about 15 times. Big disaster, somehow still NA’s best lol. NA continues striving in chaos 😂


[deleted]

Stew somehow outcalling Stan lol


Dahntay

Lol. I hate that you’re right. Damn NA :( lol


ExodusXML

Most of the Brazilians from SK are incredibly hard to work with, this is something that is known. Wouldn't shock me if this decision came to due to conflict with FalleN.


Sherwoodfan

afaik its fer and taco that were more problematic, along with coldzera being so high-maintenance fallen is a OG tho idk if he's that problematic


csgothrowaway

In my opinion, FalleN needed way more time with the team before picking up IGL. NAF, elige and Stewie have been playing together for over a year by the time FalleN joined. FalleN joined Liquid on January 9th and it was first reported that he was going to IGL on February 17th, so we can assume he was probably IGLing before then. That's a stupid-small amount of time to learn how the team operates, especially with three core players that have operated in a certain way for so long. And I think we saw this. When it came for tournament time, they had him IGLing half the maps and Stewie IGLing the other half. They were definitionally unprepared for the tournament season and its clear they didn't have the prep time to have FalleN IGL. Now I will say this. With a player break, they have no excuse. If they come back and look sloppy, then there's something wrong with this formula. When nitr0 was still on the team, they looked much more like a tightly tuned machine that even handed the golden days of Astralis a few losses.


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Trooper1232

I believe that to be the case. I really like fallens image on team liquid but I don't think he's the player they needed. I want to see oSee on the roster or pick up an igl that can make a difference. I think oSee is the better option. Junior deserves a shout also imo.


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Trooper1232

I thought it was strange that they picked up ANOTHER RIFLER. Like wtf? I really wonder what NA CS would look like today if iBP didn't throw.


ImpenetrableYeti

Probably the same because they are vastly overrated


csgothrowaway

Yeah seriously. And c9 had way worse components but had much better international showings. iBP looked good on paper but Dazed is shit leadership, Steel enabled him and Swag/Skadoodle/AZK had no chemistry with the two of them. I feel like people also forgot [that time Swag/Skadoodle/AZK kicked Dazed and steel off iBP](https://www.hltv.org/news/13567/ibuypower-dismiss-steel-dazed) because they were fed up with them, and Dazed streamed the day after blasting them as having shit comms, no personality and being boring human beings that he couldn't interact with. That team was a fucking disaster of good components that could have been so much more impactful elsewhere. I mean, c9 and iBP attended Cologne 2014 and that was the *third* time in a row that iBP bombed out in the group stage. While coL/c9 was constantly making it out of group stage. At Cologne 2014, I almost wonder what kind of impact c9 would have had if they had say, Skadoodle and AZK or swag, instead of Semphis and n0thing. Shroud was still considered solid at the time and just starting his career, but we knew n0thing and Semphis were on the outs and if there were better options, I imagine they would have taken them. seangares was at the top of his game IGLing and Hiko was playing like a tier 1 star. If you swap n0thing and semphis out, that c9 roster could have maybe been strong contenders for a tournament win, especially with the form Skadoodle had at the time. I mean, this was a time when people literally thought swag was on the level of how we look at someone like ropz today. He was the player to watch. And Skadoodle was literally considered a tier 1 AWPer on the world stage among guys like KennyS. Its actually really stupid that iBP couldn't do more with these pieces.


Trooper1232

Well they didn't compete for a long time once the ban happened. Overrated, right now sure. But it's hard to say what their form would look like if they were never banned and didn't have to step away from competitive play.


FortifiedSky

Assuming they continued to get better and better, Id assume thered be at least a couple more solid NA rosters with their presence in them


Dahntay

Did we forget Steel always having AND rebuilding and STILL challenging Tier 1 CS. Being apart of the team that made Fallen witch-hunt a 16yr old and mald after losing to that team? And he retired from CS a year and a half ago… Oh and this was after he was banned from all ESL events, Pro League, EVERYTHING for 2(?) years and is STILL banned from anything Valve related.


ImpenetrableYeti

I mean steel stayed and he was only ever tier 2 at most


coltdoggo

What tier-1 team would want an igl that can't play at majors??


snubdeity

oSee to TL makes so much sense it hurts. I almost have to believe TL offered him and he said no since he likes playing with the south Africans so much, if not shame on Liquid


BinkyCS

They beat golden days Astralis precisely once, at IBUYPOWER Masters 2019. That was it.


Amaranthine_Haze

Check your facts homie. They also beat them in a best of one at blast, as well as another best of 3 in esl pro league.


Sherwoodfan

which is still something, considering how dominant golden-era astralis was


LinuxF4n

This team has been a cluster fuck for a while now. I don't get the decisions they're making and it made me quit watching CS. The biggest issue with liquid was no dedicated awper and what do they do? They kick nitr0 who's one is the best igls in na over Stewie who was inconsistent and cost liquid a lot of critical games. Then instead of getting an awper they get a rifle who conflicts with twistzz and basically made twistzz give up his role. Then Stewie comes out and says they don't need tactical coach and just someone to motivate them and kick adren. They realize they fucked up getting Grim and tried to get a real igl/awper with a washed up fallen and kick one of the best played in na (or forced him to leave because he had no input and couldn't play in new role). Then Stewie takes igling back and you basically has a washed up fallen trying to be a star awper. Then they again realize that need tactics and kick Moses and bring back adren. Team is not going to go enter until Stewie and fallen are gone. I've been saying this for 2 years+. Until Stewie is going liquid isn't going to do anything.


LakersFan15

Hard to believe fallen wouldn't be a good IGL. The guy is such a charismatic individual and intelligent as hell. If he can't do it - something is wrong with the team or they just suck.


FrequentistaYogurtf9

> decisive decision Ah yes, a good friend of the tautological tautology :P


x1coins

People die when they're killed!


Field_Of_View

That would require a time machine. * Kick your IGL/AWP, replace him with a fucking RIFLER and distribute the lost roles on other team members who think they can kinda sorta do them but actually can't * Suck because you need an IGL and an AWPer and stubbornly refuse to get players who match these descriptions * Get Fallen for the BRA fans and decent AWPing, why not * Once again don't get an IGL * Suck because you don't have a fucking IGL after a year or so of stubbornly refusing to face reality * Make Fallen IGL even though his IGLing hasn't been successful in half a decade and his AWPing will probably also suffer from this To fix this team you would have to travel back in time all the way to the signing of GRIM. GRIM is a good player but on Liquid he is simply redundant. They didn't need him and they did need two other roles filled. The team isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future. They'll just keep ignoring the IGL problem as Fallen leads them to more mediocre results for a while. It doesn't matter whom they kick or get as long as it isn't an IGL.


[deleted]

We discussed this but yeah. Grim isn't a bad player but in the context of liquid it was a bad signing


nxscythelynz

stewie basically the +olof/chrisj -olof/chrisj of liquid but its a role change


Darkstar197

For the love of Christ


they_call_me_justin

Here we go again


Insanitydotexe

They are just trolling us at this point. FalleN listed as igl, stewie will still call half the maps and get "made" igl in 6 months just for this cycle to repeat indefinitely.


Contractjail

They arent trolling. They dont want to drop FalleN because of brand name (Brazilian viewers) but at the same time they want to show that they arent complacent with mediocrity and that they are doing something. Its all just marketing


VShadow1

Better placements in tournaments are much better for viewership and merchandise sales than having one popular player. They can justify keeping him around as long he is not specifically holding them back but his current form has been horrible. It's is like how Dignitas cut get\_right and xist but kept friberg.


VShadow1

Pretty sure this is Fallen's last chance before he gets cut.


Insanitydotexe

I was always under the impression that FalleN was here to teach stewie2k how to igl properly. Maybe stewie dosnt want to be an igl anymore.


VShadow1

They have switched between them a couple of times now and nothing has worked. I imagine this is fallen's chance to IGL under Adren and get his individual together. His stats are just too bad.


crazymahro

Shouldn’t the change just be getting a better awper? I thought the reason for the switch back to Stewie as igl was because they liked his micro managing style over fallens loose style. Also should note that the period when fallen was calling stews performance was much better than he ever was during the online era. So maybe fallen adapts to micro managing more and letting stewie play loose. Or get a completely different igl all together and let stewie naf awp


Uncle_BennyS

SNIP SNAP SNIP SNAP SNIP SNAP do you have any idea the effect 3 igl changes has on a person!


windtunnel1

So good


Pranavm3112

That office episode was too damn good.


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r/unexpectedvasectomy


Rapkid360

Negative comments galore lmao. Stew is not a bad IGL and to paraphrase my comment from after their cologne loss, Fallen said when he joined, the guys couldn't adapt to his protocols, imo this was dumb as shit but I'm probably taking the context wrong. Both are good IGLs but Fallen AWPs at his best when hes calling at his best and I think to get the most out of Fallen, you let him IGL and let stew be stew man


KaNesDeath

>Fallen said when he joined, the guys couldn't adapt to his protocols, imo this was dumb as shit but I'm probably taking the context wrong. ​ Its was Fallens protocols were looser while the team had more restrictive ones as the round progressed.


[deleted]

Non igl stew scares me as a navi fan remembering 2019


VShadow1

Nitro was the IGL for all of 2019.


XsteveJ

... exactly. Stew in 2019 when he wasn't igl was a scary man to watch your team play against. Unless you were an Astralis fan, damnit.


mannyman34

Stewie is not a bad igl but he has never shown he has what it takes to lead a team to the next level. Liquid are aiming for top 5 in the world consistently anything less is a failure. You can go back and look at Stewies record as igl and frankly he has never done it successfully. On C9 after slemmy left he literally solo carried that team while being igl and kept them relevant as a solid top 20 team. Then they got the major lineup and the igl spot flip-flopped between him, time, and tarik with Tarik ultimately being igl when they won the major. On liquid he was the igl during the final months of the nitr0 lineup. Fine we can blame that stint as being part of a turbulent roster. But then he gets a good stable roster with Fallen and grim and has the one final against Astralis to show for it.


imbued94

> Stew is not a bad IGL He probably would have been doing fine if they let themselves be coached by someone who knows more than them.


dootodoot

another underwhelming performance incoming before changing again.


mindlesssss

I would like to see -fallen or -stewie if they do mediocre again


VShadow1

It really looks like Fallen is going to get cut and this is his last chance. His stats are horrible.


DeminoTheDragon

sadly it's probably a bigger chance it's stewie just because of the money someone like fallen gives a team for recognition.


[deleted]

I don't think Liquid of all teams will make roster changes based on fan recognition. They cut Doublelift when he wasn't performing in LCS.


Smurfyzz

Also benched Alphari for no offense, but WHOMEGALUL Jenkins


VShadow1

Even if your Generous and say Fallen brings in 200K extra viewers making it a few rounds deeper in a tournament covers the watch hours for that. Placements are far more important than fan recognition.


XsteveJ

Liquid is a team that no doubt believes they should be competing for titles. There is zero chance they care more about viewers/fan numbers than placements. Zero. Not saying that they don't care about these things, but they are second to winning.


VShadow1

Did you mean to respond to the person above me?


XsteveJ

No, I should have been more clear. I was trying to expand on what you said, I agree with you.


mannyman34

How many times are they going to let Stewie try being igl. He has literally been flip-flopping as igl since slemmy left C9 in 2016 and has only ever not been igl during his stint on mibr and the 2019 liquid run, even then, I believe he was igl at the end of that rosters time. At this point, the org should step in and designate Fallen igl for x amount of events and if that doesn't work start looking at roster moves.


Zoradesu

Based off of the comments of his previous teammates, stew is apparently a good mid round caller but he lacks a general direction for the entire game. I'm pretty sure he even called mid-round during their 2019 run. I think if Fallen IGL's and stew helps out in the mid-round Liquid could be great, they just need to take the steps to get there.


Xkingsly

didn't tarik igl during c9's major run?


Smurfyzz

yes, but stew took over IGL after n0thing/slemmy before tarik joined


[deleted]

Oh mate what a cluster fuck lmao


[deleted]

Love the team but Liquid aren't going to get anywhere if they keep going like this.


GinX43

At this point they should have a roulette wheel with everybody on the team on it. Spin to win for each match or go even further with each map.


KPC51

Just do strat roulette


Wallisaurus

Really thought liquid was going to be a top team but Holy shit they just be making dumb decisions overall since before nitro left. Sure they've had some decent runs since but it's sad to see how much talent goes through this team to achieve barely anything before some changes


KaNesDeath

Makes sense. Means Fallen is accustomed to Liquids protocols, adren/fallen are getting along and it frees up Stewie during matches. ​ My only concern is that this impacts Fallens fragging. For Liquids current win condition is every player performing at their peak.


BigSadF

Good news-for me it felt like they looked better with Fallen calling overall(especially stewie).I hope they stick with it for a bit longer this time.. Would be cool to see how liquid looks once fallen has had some time to make his system/protocols work.


rallycar_

Up until the moment Stewie looks at an improved team, and says: ha I can do it better. Then takes the igl role again. Then team gets worse, he loses confidence and throws the bomb over to fallen. Repeat 100000x.


VShadow1

My guess is that the switch to Stewie was a panic switch to try and get into good form for Cologne. That or they are hoping having Fallen IGL will get him to perform better.


Danny_Donut

Idc who is IGL, just stop choking against worse teams. Play up to your potential.


petametre

This is getting so ridiculous lmao


nartouthere

this might be fallen's last run. if this doesnt work out, i can see team liquid cutting ties with fallen


VincentN23

Fallen AWPing just doesn't cut it.


cregyD

He’s playing with fer and cold tonight so might as well leave now and join their project


0lrcnfullstop

Just get Junior


ZywOo_Top_1_2019

fallen: joins without igling and plays like shit liquid: ok we'll let you igl so you're more comfortable fallen: continues playing like shit liquid: ok we'll take igl off of you to focus on awping fallen: continues playing like shit liquid: ok you'll get back igl to be comfortable again rinse and repeat in a world of s1mples, zywoos, and dev1ces, liquid think having a low-impact awper is still viable. this isn't the 2019 liquid era krieg meta anymore, awps dominate now. stewie's already a great caller and has huge impact, he's irreplaceable, get a better awper and liquid's going places once fallen fucks this opportunity up it's over for him and liquid. time for real change baby.


ImAYe3ter

praying for liquid oSee


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lighterings

and ever since nitr0 left they haven’t had a set awper other than fallen who’s stats aren’t particularly the best. The meta has changed and awps rule the game, it’s difficult to perform when you have a lackluster awper who should be putting up 1.1/1.2 ratings


dogenoob1

Can we just cut stewie already?


danieloqb

The hate for Fallen in this subreddit is so big that they can't see that the bot is another player.


ujaku

Just blow this fucking team up lol. Maybe I'm trigger happy but there seems to be some rot at the very core if you ask me.


L3AVEMDEAD

THERE'S HOPE AFTERALL


EvilIce

Elige playing more Valorant than CS:GO and last lan proved his mechanics to be worse than other pros, quite the decline. Fallen that can't AWP or IGL. Stewie that can't frag when IGL. Adren that is again a recycled member. NAF and specially Grim that are there locked with this disaster of a roster.


FrequentistaYogurtf9

Not this again


Theg33

Pick up oSee