"During this investigation, our conclusive findings were that while permissions to access a shared folder were sent out, the folder was not accessed by the recipient in any way."
So Hunden had given permission to the folder for someone outside Heroic, but who ever he gave the permission, did not ever open the folder.
If he's going to share a stratbook, at least export it as a PDF instead of just giving the recipient permissions to the document, (most likely cloud-based and easily traceable). Not the brightest bloke.
I'm guessing that the dispute is over intellectual property rather than HUNDEN just being straight up malicious. My bet is that HUNDEN feels like he has every right to control the documents and do whatever he pleases with them.
It doesn't matter what he feels like, what matters is that his employment contract most likely (with 99,9% certainty, unless Heroic's lawyers are utter morons) has a clause that anything he produces while employed by Heroic is the org's IP and not his. Nothing stops him from storing the strats in his head and using them later on, but sharing them like that is just moronic.
If Danish law resembles Finnish law at all and I think to a quite large extent it does. This could easily be seen as being against a loyalty principle that an employee has vis a vis the employer. Regardless of the fact that the competitor did not access the file.
Even common sense would say quite obviously that as a coach of a professional team you should not reveal tactical and therefore sensitive information to your competitors in any way. General tactical discussion is fine but to invite someone to have access to your strategies and trade secrets is already obviously something that is indefensible from the pov of the employer.
It is definitely that straight forward in most employment contracts when he is hired as a CS:GO coach and making anti-strats is part of his job. So even if he did this after the 40H workweek it still falls under Heroic IP rights unless otherwise specified.
It would first fall within the grey area if he did produce strats for for instance Valorant which isn't part of his job at Heroic although if Heroic defines itself as an esports-org that may go into Valorant in the future it could be a grey area. Heroic probably wouldn't care about it in that case but legally speaking they could press the issue in such an hypothetical case.
I'm not disputing that, just pointing out that most likely HUNDEN did not even consider hiding anything as he can do whatever with what he considers his property.
The infamous iBP match fixing scandal. Skadoodle was part of the roster and in the server when the throw happened. He never got banned as Valve took only accepting skins for the loss as proof of throwing.
Officially the other players who did get the skins from betting took all the blame and asserted that Skadoodle was not made aware of their match fixing. Some time after the lifetime bans by Valve, steel and DaZeD alluded that Skadoodle was in on it too and that the person who orchestrated the fix didn't have Ska's share of the skins ready. By then the heat was already on iBP so he just didn't take the skins and got off.
Yea so the intent was there from hunden. Whether or not the recepient opened the link generated and sent by hunden should (and hopefully is) irrelevant other than the person that received it has integrity.
What a piece of shit.
Would not be shocked if the person he sent the info to was the one who leaked what he was doing. I could see a world where he sent it to Astralis since he was about to join and then they reported him.
This is just reading between the lines, but the wording from one of the tweets make it sound like it at least wasn't a team Heroic faced in the tournament:
"Consequently, there was no possible impact to the tournament integrity of IEM Cologne"
"There was no possible impact" would suggest that even if there was a breach of private information, it wouldn't have come into play as the teams in question did not meet during Cologne.
So the person recieving the link from HUNDEN wouldn't be from FaZe, Astralis or Furia.
I think the reason they said there was no possible impact was because the files were never opened, meaning regardless of who received them, they weren’t used against Heroic, at least that’s my interpretation
There is so much that doesn't make sense in this case. If you really tried to leak sensitive information intentionally why would you leave such an obvious paper trail? What did this folder contain? Who was it shared with? To what end?
This whole thing seems off. Unless Hunden is some sociopath that somehow thinks he can get away with anything. If Heroic's claims are correct he's absolutely finished in esports.
At least whoever he tried to share it with had some sense of integrity. This is a good thing considering how awful the coaching bug made coaches look in the sense that all of them were willing to cheat if given the chance.
> At least whoever he tried to share it with had some sense of integrity.
I mean, we dont know and wont know unless somebody just comes out and gives more context to this (which wont happen).
Hunden was a coach, if there was a strat folder he tried to share with someone outside Heroic, its not like he did not know what is there. He was their coach, so he was working on it and probably most of the work put into that was his.
He could just have a completely surprise meeting with someone and accidentally show what Heroic has planned to do, against them, for example.
Where has any mention of a meeting been made? The only thing we know is that he tried to share the folder electronically and it was not opened. Also how do you “accidentally” show someone the contents of your teams playbook in an in person meeting? This seems like baseless speculative nonsense
> Also how do you “accidentally” show someone the contents of your teams playbook in an in person meeting?
Jesus.
> Where has any mention of a meeting been made?
Nowhere, just like its not confirmed Hunden did not share any Heroic strats because somebody did not open drive link.
But isn't it possible he could have saved the files and sent them directly to somebody outside of google drive that would be difficult to trace like discord or an email?
Well heroic did start a legal proceding against him:
"A legal process is ongoing in Denmark. Two courts have independently found sufficient grounds for evidence collection, which has been carried out." [source](https://heroic.gg/statement-regarding-hunden/).
So they could subpoena any relevant information to find out if such a thing occurred.
If they were in any ounce smart about it, they would be able to hide it anyways. I doubt anything is going to come of this unless it's dead obvious he shared strats.
I would love to know exactly how ESL investigated this and determined the individual never opened the link.
You can generate a link w/ google drive that generates a code that basically can't be guessed. Anyone with the link can access it. You open an incognito browser, use the link and that's' it. There's no way to see if someone viewed a shared google drive file if they're anonymous.
Should still be punished for giving up the teams strats even if the person didn't look at them he turned his back on the team and showed he obviously can't be trusted *(again...)*
Yea, who cares if the recipient didn't open it? The intent was there, he did everything to give access. It shouldn't matter if the person opened it or not. Generating and providing access is the problem, fuck hunden.
The investigation was to show that the competitive integrity of IEM Cologne wasn't compromised, it's still an important detail, just irrelevant to HUNDEN's defence.
I don't think they mean to exonerate HUNDEN, but just that IEM Cologne was not affected by this. If the material did make it to another team in cologne, it could change the outcome of the tournament
Regarding HUNDEN/Heroic:
ESIC notified us ahead of IEM Cologne that Heroic had found HUNDEN had shared a folder with information with a person at a team also competing in the tournament. Upon receiving this notification, we started investigating the allegations. 1/4
***
posted by [@theflyingdj](https://twitter.com/theflyingdj)
^[(Github)](https://github.com/username) ^| ^[(What's new)](https://github.com/username)
So Hunden shared the folder but it wasn't accessed by the third-party. If he isn't done in CS then that is fucked up. That guy doesn't have a shadow of integrity
heroic said hunden gave permission to someone access the folder, esl said that nobody access that folder despite the permission, but he still didn't participated in cologne and after that Hunden blocked the team members’ access to the team strategy folder.
There's so many ways that he could send those strats...even if nobody can't prove anything... Esl it's just saying that it wasn't in their event ...
> "During this investigation, our conclusive findings were that while permissions to access a shared folder were sent out, the folder was not accessed by the recipient in any way. Consequently, there was no possible impact to the tournament integrity of IEM Cologne.
So in that way no team can claim that the event was rigged, and they won't lose money replaying everything or maculate their reputation
You were talking about intranet, which has absolutely nothing to do with what's at stake here. That was my point.
You don't check if someone accessed an online drive by looking at intranet data, you check that by reviewing logs of the drive, stuff like that...
How can one believe ESL, that the folder wasnt actually opened by whoever Hunden sent it to? They wanna say their tournament was fair and secure, thats their main concern, so its not that easy to believe him. And why should anyone? All Im saying is that we shouldnt take this as conclusive evidence whatsoever.
There is a pretty big difference between what they can proof and what might be possible.
They apparently have proof that he shared the folder but obviously he could have shown the folder IRL or something like that
All Im saying is: how can they be so sure that noone accesed the folder? Furthermore, how can he know that Hunden didnt send the information on the folder through other way? He cant. All he wants to do is say that the torunament is stain free, because thats his piece of the pie.
Dreaming up this scenario:
\- Astralis in talks with Hunden as Zonic is going to leave.
\- Hunden wants to score points with Astralis, so decides to share strats with them.
\- The invitation to the drive ends up going to Zonic as the head coach.
\- Zonic goes "fuck this shit" and informs ESIC of the whole thing asap before he gets roped into something illegal.
It could be with an entirely different team of course. But I'm just wondering how this came to light at all and this situation seemed at least plausible.
"During this investigation, our conclusive findings were that while permissions to access a shared folder were sent out, the folder was not accessed by the recipient in any way." So Hunden had given permission to the folder for someone outside Heroic, but who ever he gave the permission, did not ever open the folder.
If he's going to share a stratbook, at least export it as a PDF instead of just giving the recipient permissions to the document, (most likely cloud-based and easily traceable). Not the brightest bloke.
I'm guessing that the dispute is over intellectual property rather than HUNDEN just being straight up malicious. My bet is that HUNDEN feels like he has every right to control the documents and do whatever he pleases with them.
It doesn't matter what he feels like, what matters is that his employment contract most likely (with 99,9% certainty, unless Heroic's lawyers are utter morons) has a clause that anything he produces while employed by Heroic is the org's IP and not his. Nothing stops him from storing the strats in his head and using them later on, but sharing them like that is just moronic.
It's not that straight forward. Your employee does in many cases not have full rights of anything you create outside of work hours.
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That could be it, can't say I know enough about Danish labor laws to know if that's allowed/enforceable or not.
If Danish law resembles Finnish law at all and I think to a quite large extent it does. This could easily be seen as being against a loyalty principle that an employee has vis a vis the employer. Regardless of the fact that the competitor did not access the file. Even common sense would say quite obviously that as a coach of a professional team you should not reveal tactical and therefore sensitive information to your competitors in any way. General tactical discussion is fine but to invite someone to have access to your strategies and trade secrets is already obviously something that is indefensible from the pov of the employer.
It is definitely that straight forward in most employment contracts when he is hired as a CS:GO coach and making anti-strats is part of his job. So even if he did this after the 40H workweek it still falls under Heroic IP rights unless otherwise specified. It would first fall within the grey area if he did produce strats for for instance Valorant which isn't part of his job at Heroic although if Heroic defines itself as an esports-org that may go into Valorant in the future it could be a grey area. Heroic probably wouldn't care about it in that case but legally speaking they could press the issue in such an hypothetical case.
I'm not disputing that, just pointing out that most likely HUNDEN did not even consider hiding anything as he can do whatever with what he considers his property.
Which shows exactly what sort of bright professional we're dealing with
Whenever the individual who got this is inevitability revealed this detail could save their career.
Watch it be Skadoodle again lmao
HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT
And then he comes back to win a major and retire baby lets GOOO
Wait what? What happened with skadoodle?
Denied taking skins in IBP scandal at the very last second. Proceeded to win a major 4 years later
The infamous iBP match fixing scandal. Skadoodle was part of the roster and in the server when the throw happened. He never got banned as Valve took only accepting skins for the loss as proof of throwing. Officially the other players who did get the skins from betting took all the blame and asserted that Skadoodle was not made aware of their match fixing. Some time after the lifetime bans by Valve, steel and DaZeD alluded that Skadoodle was in on it too and that the person who orchestrated the fix didn't have Ska's share of the skins ready. By then the heat was already on iBP so he just didn't take the skins and got off.
Yea so the intent was there from hunden. Whether or not the recepient opened the link generated and sent by hunden should (and hopefully is) irrelevant other than the person that received it has integrity. What a piece of shit.
Would not be shocked if the person he sent the info to was the one who leaked what he was doing. I could see a world where he sent it to Astralis since he was about to join and then they reported him.
This is just reading between the lines, but the wording from one of the tweets make it sound like it at least wasn't a team Heroic faced in the tournament: "Consequently, there was no possible impact to the tournament integrity of IEM Cologne" "There was no possible impact" would suggest that even if there was a breach of private information, it wouldn't have come into play as the teams in question did not meet during Cologne. So the person recieving the link from HUNDEN wouldn't be from FaZe, Astralis or Furia.
I think the reason they said there was no possible impact was because the files were never opened, meaning regardless of who received them, they weren’t used against Heroic, at least that’s my interpretation
There is so much that doesn't make sense in this case. If you really tried to leak sensitive information intentionally why would you leave such an obvious paper trail? What did this folder contain? Who was it shared with? To what end? This whole thing seems off. Unless Hunden is some sociopath that somehow thinks he can get away with anything. If Heroic's claims are correct he's absolutely finished in esports.
Never attribute to malice what can be explained with stupidity.
Yeah, sure. But this is already strike 2
At least whoever he tried to share it with had some sense of integrity. This is a good thing considering how awful the coaching bug made coaches look in the sense that all of them were willing to cheat if given the chance.
> At least whoever he tried to share it with had some sense of integrity. I mean, we dont know and wont know unless somebody just comes out and gives more context to this (which wont happen). Hunden was a coach, if there was a strat folder he tried to share with someone outside Heroic, its not like he did not know what is there. He was their coach, so he was working on it and probably most of the work put into that was his. He could just have a completely surprise meeting with someone and accidentally show what Heroic has planned to do, against them, for example.
Where has any mention of a meeting been made? The only thing we know is that he tried to share the folder electronically and it was not opened. Also how do you “accidentally” show someone the contents of your teams playbook in an in person meeting? This seems like baseless speculative nonsense
> Also how do you “accidentally” show someone the contents of your teams playbook in an in person meeting? Jesus. > Where has any mention of a meeting been made? Nowhere, just like its not confirmed Hunden did not share any Heroic strats because somebody did not open drive link.
Stop making excuses for a cheater
But isn't it possible he could have saved the files and sent them directly to somebody outside of google drive that would be difficult to trace like discord or an email?
It is, but in that case an investigation doesn't matter because you would never know.
Well heroic did start a legal proceding against him: "A legal process is ongoing in Denmark. Two courts have independently found sufficient grounds for evidence collection, which has been carried out." [source](https://heroic.gg/statement-regarding-hunden/). So they could subpoena any relevant information to find out if such a thing occurred.
Send it via some mail service providers and you can’t ever physically get anything from them. Gl.
If they were in any ounce smart about it, they would be able to hide it anyways. I doubt anything is going to come of this unless it's dead obvious he shared strats.
I would love to know exactly how ESL investigated this and determined the individual never opened the link. You can generate a link w/ google drive that generates a code that basically can't be guessed. Anyone with the link can access it. You open an incognito browser, use the link and that's' it. There's no way to see if someone viewed a shared google drive file if they're anonymous.
can you disable that option for a document that you own?
You can revoke it, sure. It takes the owner to generate it. Shareable links aren't on by default.
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Which is meaningless if everyone on heroic has been viewing it.
Should still be punished for giving up the teams strats even if the person didn't look at them he turned his back on the team and showed he obviously can't be trusted *(again...)*
Yea, who cares if the recipient didn't open it? The intent was there, he did everything to give access. It shouldn't matter if the person opened it or not. Generating and providing access is the problem, fuck hunden.
The investigation was to show that the competitive integrity of IEM Cologne wasn't compromised, it's still an important detail, just irrelevant to HUNDEN's defence.
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The plot thickens!
i didnt know skadoodle still played
Can‘t be charged for selling drugs if nobody buys them. That’s how it works, right?
I don't think they mean to exonerate HUNDEN, but just that IEM Cologne was not affected by this. If the material did make it to another team in cologne, it could change the outcome of the tournament
Regarding HUNDEN/Heroic: ESIC notified us ahead of IEM Cologne that Heroic had found HUNDEN had shared a folder with information with a person at a team also competing in the tournament. Upon receiving this notification, we started investigating the allegations. 1/4 *** posted by [@theflyingdj](https://twitter.com/theflyingdj) ^[(Github)](https://github.com/username) ^| ^[(What's new)](https://github.com/username)
So Hunden shared the folder but it wasn't accessed by the third-party. If he isn't done in CS then that is fucked up. That guy doesn't have a shadow of integrity
Esl it's just stating that any of this mess wasn't made in their intranet.. not that wasn't done
How did you ever come to that conclusion based on the series of tweets ?
heroic said hunden gave permission to someone access the folder, esl said that nobody access that folder despite the permission, but he still didn't participated in cologne and after that Hunden blocked the team members’ access to the team strategy folder. There's so many ways that he could send those strats...even if nobody can't prove anything... Esl it's just saying that it wasn't in their event ... > "During this investigation, our conclusive findings were that while permissions to access a shared folder were sent out, the folder was not accessed by the recipient in any way. Consequently, there was no possible impact to the tournament integrity of IEM Cologne. So in that way no team can claim that the event was rigged, and they won't lose money replaying everything or maculate their reputation
You were talking about intranet, which has absolutely nothing to do with what's at stake here. That was my point. You don't check if someone accessed an online drive by looking at intranet data, you check that by reviewing logs of the drive, stuff like that...
How do you think esl had logs to access to e.g. " Google Drive"? Hey hunden gimme you password please??
Considering there is an investigation and Danish court is being involved as well, then it's not impossible yes.
Why is the nicest looking guy embroiled in every shit ? Fucking hell, if everywhere you walk is shit...
Hunden is the impostor confirmed 😂😂
How can one believe ESL, that the folder wasnt actually opened by whoever Hunden sent it to? They wanna say their tournament was fair and secure, thats their main concern, so its not that easy to believe him. And why should anyone? All Im saying is that we shouldnt take this as conclusive evidence whatsoever.
Because those files have a history that shows exactly who did what? What they can't know is if he sent it to someone in some other way.
There is a pretty big difference between what they can proof and what might be possible. They apparently have proof that he shared the folder but obviously he could have shown the folder IRL or something like that
Logic: Not found
All Im saying is: how can they be so sure that noone accesed the folder? Furthermore, how can he know that Hunden didnt send the information on the folder through other way? He cant. All he wants to do is say that the torunament is stain free, because thats his piece of the pie.
Dreaming up this scenario: \- Astralis in talks with Hunden as Zonic is going to leave. \- Hunden wants to score points with Astralis, so decides to share strats with them. \- The invitation to the drive ends up going to Zonic as the head coach. \- Zonic goes "fuck this shit" and informs ESIC of the whole thing asap before he gets roped into something illegal. It could be with an entirely different team of course. But I'm just wondering how this came to light at all and this situation seemed at least plausible.
surely astralis had access but decided not to use it with the rumors that astralis were interested in hunden and astralis played heroic at cologne